0:00

Sometimes the

0:00

differences that we have what we

0:04

often refer to as you know, as

0:04

intercultural differences are

0:09

often just misunderstandings.

0:09

These are a layers that we've

0:13

placed over ourselves in our

0:13

understanding of one another,

0:17

that are often incorrect, that

0:17

are often misunderstood. And if

0:21

we can peel off those layers,

0:21

and really get to what is at the

0:24

bottom of who we really are, we

0:24

start discovering that we all

0:27

very similar

0:39

Welcome to

0:39

the cultural agility podcast,

0:42

where we explore the stories of

0:42

some of the most advanced

0:45

intercultural practitioners from

0:45

around the world, to help you

0:49

become culturally agile, and

0:49

succeed in today's culturally

0:52

complex world. I'm your host,

0:52

Marco Blankenburg, international

0:56

director of knowledge works,

0:56

where every day we help

0:59

individuals and companies

0:59

achieve relational success in

1:03

that same complex world. Welcome

1:03

to today's podcast, today is a

1:11

special recording because with a

1:11

friend, colleague, fellow

1:16

consultant, fellow facilitator,

1:16

and we've had the chance to work

1:20

together on and off for the last

1:20

more than 20 years. I think it

1:25

is George, I don't remember

1:25

exactly when we first met, but

1:28

it's over 20 years ago. Now.

1:28

Indeed, in these hours, it's

1:32

wonderful to have you on this

1:32

episode, to talk about the world

1:37

of consulting the world of

1:37

global consulting, intercultural

1:41

consulting. I think it's a

1:41

fascinating subject. And there's

1:45

so many lessons that you have

1:45

learned that I believe is worthy

1:50

of passing on to our audience

1:50

today. So thank you for joining.

1:54

It is a pleasure. It is a pleasure. Thank you, Marco. I've been

1:56

looking forward to this

1:58

opportunity to spend some time

1:58

with you this afternoon. Yes.

2:01

So George,

2:01

you originally hail from South

2:05

Africa, we met for the first

2:05

time in the UAE and Dubai. But I

2:10

don't want to put words in your

2:10

mouth. So be great if you can

2:14

introduce yourself to our

2:14

listeners today.

2:18

Thanks, Marco. Yeah, that's this is always an interesting one to introduce

2:20

yourself in a few seconds, which

2:25

is a tough one. But I'll try. As

2:25

you mentioned, maka, we met in

2:30

the UAE, which was an important

2:30

step in my life journey. As I

2:36

originally come from South

2:36

Africa, currently living in Cape

2:41

Town, and I spent my formative

2:41

years in Johannesburg, in the

2:48

military, then had the

2:48

opportunity to move out to the

2:53

Middle East, and engage with

2:53

knowledge works, get involved in

2:57

some academia, be involved in

2:57

the consulting industry. And I

3:04

think over the years, I've been

3:04

very much flowing in between the

3:07

two. So having the opportunity

3:07

to invest in individuals from an

3:14

academic point of view, but then

3:14

also to contribute to

3:17

organizations and their success

3:17

as a management consultant. So

3:22

yeah, so for the last 25 years,

3:22

you know, being involved in that

3:26

flow, and coming off a strong

3:26

base of, of having spent about

3:33

eight years in the military as

3:33

well in the Navy. So I'm an ex

3:36

naval officer. And, and that's,

3:36

that's also, interestingly

3:41

enough, it was the launching

3:41

pad, for me as an organizational

3:46

consultant, particularly given

3:46

many of the changes that the

3:51

South African military was

3:51

experiencing in the 90s that I

3:55

was part of. So yeah, in a

3:55

nutshell, that's, that's where

3:58

I'm from and what I've done so far,

4:01

coming from

4:01

South Africa, some people call

4:03

it the rainbow nation. Other

4:03

people question that label. But

4:09

being born and raised in South

4:09

Africa, what what were some of

4:13

your earliest intercultural

4:13

experiences growing up there?

4:17

Well, I think

4:17

for the for every South African

4:20

that is different. It really

4:20

depends on which area you're

4:23

from whether you grew up in a

4:23

more rural context or whether it

4:27

was in a more urban city life

4:27

kind of environment. I had the

4:33

opportunity of being involved in

4:33

both, but I think probably my

4:38

most important formative years

4:38

were in my my later teens, early

4:44

adulthood, being involved as a

4:44

university student in, you know,

4:49

in the change that was taking

4:49

place in South Africa in the

4:54

early 90s. I had the privilege

4:54

of being involved In the youth

5:00

movement of one of the, one of

5:00

the the unique political parties

5:06

at the time, called the

5:06

independent party. And I

5:09

remember being part of a first

5:09

youth group that had a trip down

5:13

to Cape Town, at the time, at

5:13

the time, I was studying at

5:16

Randolph County University,

5:16

which was a very traditional

5:20

national socialist, almost

5:20

educational platform, and

5:25

failing to cope down and working

5:25

with other youth, young adults,

5:32

and to start to think about what

5:32

would the new South Africa look

5:35

like? And what role can we play

5:35

as young South Africans in that

5:40

in that you said, Africa, and

5:40

that was followed by a time in

5:44

the military. And I think this

5:44

is where my, my intercultural

5:48

experience really started

5:48

growing, in that, at the time, I

5:54

happen to get involved into a

5:54

process of integration of

5:58

different armed forces, as you

5:58

would know, from the past, that

6:02

a South Africa has, in the past

6:02

was a deeply divided society,

6:06

and sometimes, unfortunately,

6:06

still is. So to answer your

6:10

question about the rainbow

6:10

nation, I think we would like to

6:13

be, and I think many of us try

6:13

and be, but often they are, you

6:18

know, severe obstacles that

6:18

needs to be surmounted. And we

6:21

work hard to do so. And at that

6:21

time, I think was a good example

6:25

where you had different armed

6:25

forces, what was known in the

6:29

past as a South African Defence

6:29

Force, and controversies were

6:33

that many might have heard of

6:33

the Pan African National

6:35

Congress, these were what we in

6:35

those days would call non

6:39

statutory forces, or what many

6:39

would have called that those

6:44

days, terrorist organizations

6:44

and actually now integrate with

6:47

various in very different

6:47

cultures, different political

6:51

agendas, highly racially

6:51

fragmented and polarized. And,

6:58

you know, I was involved in a

6:58

time where individuals that were

7:01

literally a few months earlier,

7:01

were facing one another over a

7:05

barrel of a gun at you now

7:05

suddenly started working

7:08

together, sitting next to one

7:08

another in the same office. And

7:12

I think, you know, following on

7:12

from my experience at

7:15

university, this was really a

7:15

time where I had to start

7:17

thinking about, well, in this

7:17

place where there are so many

7:21

people that are so different.

7:21

And but yes, so similar,

7:27

strangely enough, and the

7:27

similarity started coming out,

7:31

when I was involved in a program

7:31

that was called the

7:35

psychological integration

7:35

program. So there is a very

7:39

early form of ici development,

7:39

and that was taking place in

7:42

South Africa. And the purpose of

7:42

that program was to try and find

7:48

common ground amongst all of

7:48

these, you know, culturally

7:53

diverse individuals. And what we

7:53

were trying to do, using various

7:57

psychological techniques was to

7:57

create a platform where people

8:02

could communicate. And it was so

8:02

interesting, it was a week long

8:07

program, and during that week,

8:07

you know, you would visit

8:10

different military bases. And,

8:10

you know, in some cases, they

8:14

were in a some of those those

8:14

military bases were located in

8:18

in highly volatile areas. I can

8:18

think of one example, not too

8:23

far from where I live, we ran a

8:23

program in the collegia area,

8:27

where the traditional what was

8:27

called the colored cops were

8:31

located. I think, if I remember

8:31

correctly, the 15th Infantry

8:34

Division. And at this, during

8:34

this program, you know, you had

8:40

all sergeant majors that were

8:40

either from controversies were

8:45

or from the old ACDS, sitting

8:45

across on another table, and

8:49

literally wanting to tear one

8:49

another's eyes out, you know, in

8:52

this conversation. And what was

8:52

interesting enough,

8:57

traditionally, in the military,

8:57

on a Wednesday afternoon, at

9:00

least in the South African

9:00

military, there's an opportunity

9:03

for people to come together to

9:03

play sports to step away from

9:06

the office. And we use that

9:06

Wednesday afternoon on the

9:10

course, to watch a copy of the

9:10

recording of the 1995 World Cup

9:15

was just recently played. And of

9:15

course, wasted Africa won the

9:19

final, which was a great event

9:19

for bringing people together.

9:24

And, and during this this, this

9:24

afternoon, it just seemed that

9:29

all these differences, all this

9:29

tension started disappearing.

9:33

People started having a good

9:33

time, and I started talking to

9:36

one another, obviously, you

9:36

know, infused by the excitement

9:43

of having won the World Cup and

9:43

being world champions. And I

9:46

remember so vividly. I'm sitting

9:46

in that room, opposite a guy who

9:51

was recently the head of a or

9:51

the cheeseless South African

9:55

Navy, at that stage lieutenant

9:55

and him saying to me, Georgia,

10:00

have actually I don't know what

10:00

all this you know what all

10:02

distinction, we're all this

10:02

unhappiness is all about it

10:06

we're experiencing. Because he

10:06

says, you know, you and I are

10:10

very similar. And I said, Yeah,

10:10

I agree, but you told me what do

10:15

you why do you say so? And he

10:15

says, he said to me, Well, you

10:18

know, George, why are we here,

10:18

you know, we are here to earn a

10:22

living, we're here to care for

10:22

our families, we are here to

10:26

have some purpose, God, and all

10:26

of this other stuff is just

10:30

political rhetoric. And it was

10:30

during those types of

10:33

conversations, that I think, you

10:33

know, the penny dropped for me

10:37

that, you know, sometimes the,

10:37

the differences that we have,

10:43

what we often refer to, as, you

10:43

know, as intercultural

10:46

differences are often just

10:46

misunderstandings. These are a

10:52

layers that we've placed over

10:52

ourselves in our understanding

10:56

of one another, and that are

10:56

often incorrect, that are often

11:00

misunderstood. And if we can

11:00

peel off those layers, and

11:04

really get to what is at the

11:04

bottom of who we really are, we

11:07

start discovering that we all

11:07

very similar. And from that, you

11:11

know, that that's that pace of

11:11

similarity, of shared interests

11:15

of, of shared purpose really,

11:15

one can then start building

11:20

something that is unique, and

11:20

it's something that leads to,

11:24

you know, people being able to

11:24

work together productively in

11:27

harmony and in peace. And that

11:27

really is, you know, I would say

11:31

that was the start of my

11:31

intercultural journey. And what

11:36

I've just seen growing from, you

11:36

know, from from strength to

11:39

strength since then,

11:42

that in and

11:42

of itself is worth an episode or

11:45

maybe even a

11:45

book. Amen.

11:50

So, from

11:50

there read this fast tracking,

11:53

you went into the GCC, the Gulf

11:53

region, into the UAE. And that's

12:00

where we eventually met. You had

12:00

the opportunity to be part of

12:05

some of the earliest groups of

12:05

where we certify people on

12:09

intercultural intelligence or to

12:09

become more culturally agile and

12:13

train and coach others to do the

12:13

same. What drew you into that?

12:18

You know, the stories you just

12:18

told, obviously, that's in the

12:22

background, creating the

12:22

groundswell but what drew you

12:26

into ici intercultural

12:26

intelligence?

12:29

You know, Miko

12:29

I've always been one that, that,

12:33

you know, that believes in

12:33

message. And I believe in like

12:38

old King Solomon said, there's

12:38

nothing new under the sun. And

12:41

we do have methodology for

12:41

things in life and it helps us

12:45

make things easier. And I think

12:45

what drew me into the whole in

12:50

those days, the ICI cultural

12:50

agility, as we spoke about

12:54

cultural agility in those days,

12:54

arena was, you know, the idea of

13:00

having something that I can use,

13:00

just to try and explain to

13:06

others what I experienced when I

13:06

was in Khayelitsha, right, and

13:10

to put some form around that,

13:10

and to apply psychometrics and

13:16

other useful tools, methodology

13:16

to make that applicable to

13:20

others for others to learn, and

13:20

to be able to apply it in their

13:25

everyday lives, whether that is

13:25

in a normal relationship, or

13:30

whether it is in trying to make

13:30

an organizational practice work.

13:34

So I think that that's what drew

13:34

me to the ICI model, or the ICI

13:38

practice was, here is something

13:38

that you were describing to me

13:42

that was just immediately, you

13:42

know, just just landed on me

13:46

that resonated with what I felt

13:46

in my in my heart and in my soul

13:50

as being as being a real. And

13:50

when I then overlaid that on my

13:55

experience as a young South

13:55

African in the military and in

13:59

the Middle East. And it just

13:59

makes so much sense, you know,

14:02

the concept of, of being able to

14:02

accurately identify what you

14:08

seen around you in terms of

14:08

others, to be able to interpret

14:11

that correctly, and then to be

14:11

able to adapt to it. That's what

14:15

I saw in Khayelitsha. And when

14:15

you started explaining, and

14:19

describing ici to me, I think it

14:19

just made perfect sense. And

14:23

that's when I got excited, I

14:23

thought, well, this is something

14:27

if I can learn this, and learn

14:27

to apply this broadly, that

14:32

would really empower my journey

14:32

of wanting to help others, you

14:38

know, see this light that I

14:38

think was starting to shine in

14:42

all aspects of my life but also

14:42

that I really knew and could

14:47

understand what's necessary in

14:47

so many other contexts that I

14:49

got involved in.

14:51

As

14:51

fascinating how you you draw

14:53

those two together. On the one

14:53

hand, there's the method but

14:56

there is also your own life

14:56

experience. And you know with

14:59

hunting So as practitioners

14:59

around the world, they have gone

15:03

through the same experience of,

15:03

hey, here's a methodology that

15:06

makes culture accessible. And it

15:06

helps with sense making, but

15:11

also, it makes my own story come

15:11

alive, it creates a lot of

15:16

answers, especially the why

15:16

answers, I think, of what we've

15:19

gone through and why something

15:19

worked and why something didn't

15:22

work. But you already mentioned

15:22

that it impacts relationships,

15:27

how did it impact you? What what

15:27

did it do for you personally?

15:31

Well, I think

15:31

Marco, what you probably having,

15:34

you know, being being marriages

15:34

that African as well, you know,

15:38

that we can be quite stuck in

15:38

our ways, you know, we are, you

15:42

know, Afrikaner Buddha means, as

15:42

they say, and, and what I, what

15:49

I experienced in starting to

15:49

develop as a culturally agile

15:54

individual, as a, as a cultural

15:54

learner, as we would put in

15:58

those days, was that I was able

15:58

to start shining some light on

16:04

to different parts of my life,

16:04

and in my behavior that I could

16:09

identify still being stuck in a

16:09

kind of a negative paradox,

16:13

right. And, and through applying

16:13

some of this methodology, some

16:17

of these spots that we had been

16:17

playing around with at that

16:21

time, I, myself, could really

16:21

step back and say, Hey, I'm

16:24

George, you know, you're talking

16:24

about being intellectually

16:27

intelligent, you're talking

16:27

about being someone that others

16:30

can work with. But you know, in

16:30

this specific area of your life,

16:34

is this something that really

16:34

supports that? Or is it

16:37

something that that you need to

16:37

be thinking about? And, and

16:41

really interpreting correctly

16:41

yourself in terms of how you're

16:44

behaving? Before you can impose

16:44

yourself on others? Because as

16:48

you probably know, from working

16:48

with me, Mater, I can be a bit

16:51

of a control freak sometimes.

16:56

Yeah, yeah,

16:56

it's, it's really interesting,

16:59

that idea of you can you can

16:59

teach a method, but if that

17:05

method doesn't come alive, for

17:05

you from the inside out, that

17:09

you almost, you know, lose your

17:09

credibility.

17:12

Yeah, I think

17:12

this is very important in the

17:15

sense that and maybe, if we got

17:15

get the opportunity later, to

17:19

talk a little bit about this

17:19

consulting practice, in general,

17:22

I think it really comes to the

17:22

really heart of how do we make

17:27

consulting practice work?

17:27

Because I think there are so

17:30

many methods and so many

17:30

consulting solutions out there

17:34

and, and coming and having spent

17:34

many years within the large, you

17:37

know, big four consulting firms

17:37

who have exposure to the

17:41

strategy firms and boutique

17:41

firms, you know, there are so

17:44

many solutions. And so many of

17:44

those solutions, we try and

17:51

implement, you know, as is

17:51

within a new context, such as

17:55

the Malays, for example, GCC,

17:55

and then we step away and think,

17:59

Oh, why doesn't this work? But I

17:59

think, and this is really,

18:04

something that I learned, as I

18:04

started to get involved with you

18:08

from an ici perspective is that,

18:08

you know, it's almost as if we

18:12

tried to put a square peg in a

18:12

round peg in a round hole, in

18:17

that, you know, the, the round

18:17

hole of the way in which maybe

18:23

an individual operates within,

18:23

you know, I'm gonna show him

18:26

environment, you know, forced

18:26

into a square peg of a guilt

18:32

innocence consulting solution,

18:32

it just creates friction, as

18:37

opposed to, you know, lasting

18:37

lasting solutions and lasting

18:40

value to clients.

18:41

Yeah. And it

18:41

seems you're raising, in essence

18:44

to two issues here. One is, does

18:44

true global best practice really

18:51

exist? Because there's lots of

18:51

square pegs in round holes,

18:55

where there's, you know,

18:55

universally applicable best

18:58

practice. And then the other

18:58

thing is, you know, how, how can

19:02

you consultants move in and out

19:02

of different cultural contexts

19:05

work with people from very

19:05

different backgrounds? You know,

19:09

wouldn't they get lost if they

19:09

don't have just one method to

19:13

work with? So what's, what's the

19:13

classical consulting, we've

19:17

cooked up a methodology and we,

19:17

we saw that methodology all

19:22

around the world versus a more

19:22

culturally agile consultant, how

19:26

would you describe the difference?

19:28

I think the

19:28

difference is very much one of

19:31

what is, you know, what is the

19:31

purpose of what you're trying to

19:35

do? You know, I remember us

19:35

often having this conversation

19:39

as colleagues and you asking me

19:39

well, Georgia and to watch and

19:42

to watch, are we doing this?

19:42

And, and I think that is crucial

19:45

in a consulting in your

19:45

consulting approach is, why are

19:50

you doing this? Are you doing

19:50

this to merely implement some

19:54

methodology that was published

19:54

somewhere, or are you doing this

19:58

to really help someone to make

19:58

you know, a LASIK change. And

20:02

while I do believe that there is

20:02

definitely a wide body of

20:08

established, recognized, and

20:08

very valuable solutions out

20:14

there, that you know, a

20:14

interculturally, or culturally

20:18

agile consultant really is one

20:18

that is able to take that, put

20:23

it in his in his or her back

20:23

pocket, and then say, alright,

20:25

I'm looking at the situation in

20:25

front of me, what is it that I'm

20:29

trying to achieve? And why am I

20:29

trying to achieve this? So

20:33

starting with the second

20:33

question, why am I trying to

20:36

achieve this? The answer needs

20:36

to be in order to help the

20:38

person that I'm dealing with, in

20:38

order to solve their problem as

20:43

best or in the best way that

20:43

they can possibly do so

20:46

themselves. answering the first

20:46

question of how am I going to do

20:52

this? Well, I need to bring this

20:52

established solution that has

20:56

been a validated and replicated

20:56

elsewhere. And I need to save

21:02

ask myself, well, how can I now

21:02

put this into place so that it

21:06

actually helped this helps this

21:06

client of mine to implement the

21:09

solution effectively? And this

21:09

is where I think cultural

21:13

agility and intercultural

21:13

intelligence comes in. So how do

21:16

I, how do I help this

21:16

individual, for example, and

21:21

probably the best way to explain

21:21

this is through a story, we were

21:24

involved in a large

21:24

implementation of a new strategy

21:29

for the the electricity

21:29

generated in Kazakhstan a few

21:34

years ago. And what we were

21:34

trying to do was to support the

21:38

corporatization process, that

21:38

this electricity generator to

21:43

Gog, I think it was called, at

21:43

the time, was trying to realize

21:49

and the purpose was for them to

21:49

then engage fully in supplying

21:54

energy to the EU, etc. So it was

21:54

both a major corporatization

21:58

process but also a major, gotta

21:58

change process. And at the time,

22:04

because Exxon was still moving

22:04

out of the old Soviet era, and a

22:08

lot of the mindsets was thought

22:08

in all Soviet, large scale,

22:13

institutional, very slow, moving

22:13

very traditional mindsets, and

22:20

we had, you know, markets that

22:20

these guys now started at having

22:24

to compete with an engaging that

22:24

we're, you know, there's been

22:28

not only ambitious, but we're

22:28

also very innovative and

22:32

adaptable and agile. So changing

22:32

the the, you know, the corporate

22:37

environment within Qigong in

22:37

order to play with on this in

22:40

this new market was quite a

22:40

challenge. And I remember,

22:45

often, at the time, I was

22:45

leading the change management

22:50

workstream on this large

22:50

initiative as part of one of the

22:53

big four firms. And I remember

22:53

often going to the board

23:00

meetings where we now had to

23:00

present some of our solutions

23:04

that we were developing. And

23:04

part of our purpose was to

23:09

support the CEO at the time,

23:09

because he was ultimately

23:12

responsible for making this

23:12

work. Right. And I don't know

23:17

why, but probably because, you

23:17

know, I realized that in this

23:22

environment, creating community

23:22

was important. And I often when

23:29

I started my part of the

23:29

presentation, I started off with

23:32

a joke. And so we did a number

23:32

of these board meetings. And at

23:41

the penultimate board meeting,

23:41

I, you know, I made my

23:47

presentation, and it didn't go

23:47

so well that day. So the CEO

23:53

afterwards asked me, he said to

23:53

me, what's your what happened to

23:56

the joke? And so I said to you,

23:56

well, oh, my apologies. Mr. I

24:03

think his name was Alexandra. I

24:03

apologize. I, I just, you know,

24:08

we were so caught up in the

24:08

work, I forgot about a joke. He

24:11

said, no joke, George. But the

24:11

joke was really important.

24:13

Because what you were telling

24:13

them was really, you know, it

24:19

was very different to what they

24:19

were used to, right. And diving

24:24

into that solution, even though

24:24

to you, it was straightforward,

24:28

and you know, and you had all

24:28

the best practice and, you know,

24:31

benchmarking all that stuff

24:31

ready. And a really good

24:34

explanation of how to make this

24:34

work for them. These guys, you

24:39

know, just were not in the frame

24:39

of mind to be able to absorb and

24:43

accept what you were telling

24:43

them. But by adding in this

24:46

little piece of joke in the

24:46

front, what you did is you when

24:49

he recognized you, we're

24:49

starting to develop some

24:52

community, because we've done

24:52

this before. So they now

24:55

expected Joseph is going to come

24:55

up, he's going to tell a bit of

24:58

a joke, and then he's gonna go

24:58

get into all this change

25:00

management stuff, which is important for us, you know, right? Without the joke. And

25:02

it's a very simple thing. But

25:08

without a joke, it was a lot

25:08

more difficult for them to

25:10

understand what I was going to

25:10

try and tell them by telling the

25:13

joke up front, what I was doing

25:13

as I was starting to building in

25:17

as to build some community. And

25:17

in that community, we could find

25:21

one another in many of the the

25:21

tensions of who's who in the

25:28

zoo, as far as the meeting is

25:28

concerned, or who's right and

25:32

who's wrong. All that kind of

25:32

moved away a little bit. During

25:36

the time while we were laughing

25:36

about this ridiculous no joke

25:38

that I might have inserted in my

25:38

presentation. But very

25:42

important, because I did that,

25:42

you know, it allowed for this

25:46

methodology to work. And I think

25:46

there are many other examples

25:49

that I go into. But I mean, it's

25:49

just one small way. I think that

25:53

you as a, as a culture, we live

25:53

in an agile consultant can add

25:57

things into the way in which you

25:57

introduce best practice, to make

26:01

best practice work, even though

26:01

you're not changing the practice

26:04

at all, you're just changing the

26:04

way in which you are delivering

26:06

that practice.

26:09

And what

26:09

you're alluding to is really

26:12

that idea that intercultural

26:12

consulting is both 100%

26:17

relational and 100%.

26:17

Transactional, it's not just

26:20

about the method, and the

26:20

packaging is very much to do

26:23

with how the people will respond

26:23

to it. The very often they they

26:29

quote, unquote, by you as a

26:29

person first before they're

26:32

willing to embrace your method.

26:32

And knowing how to do that, in

26:36

multiple contexts is so

26:36

incredibly important, and also

26:40

really hard to do. Because the

26:40

lessons never stop, right.

26:45

Yeah, yep. And

26:45

yeah, as you know, probably

26:48

better than I do, you know,

26:48

using the approach that I've

26:52

just explained, doesn't work in

26:52

all contexts, right? Exactly.

26:55

I've been in in other contexts,

26:55

you know, with organizations in

26:59

Europe, for example, where that

26:59

would have been seen as as

27:02

highly inappropriate. But then

27:02

again, they weren't, there are

27:06

other methods that one can use.

27:06

To make that work.

27:10

You're

27:10

instrumental in in getting our

27:14

consulting our intercultural

27:14

consulting methodology,

27:17

documented, and we are still

27:17

using that today, it has grown

27:22

even after you moved on to

27:22

bigger playing field. And it was

27:29

in the beginning, I was like,

27:29

okay, is this you know, where's

27:33

this going? And now looking back

27:33

more than 20 years, I'm still

27:38

forever grateful that you

27:38

started that process, but to our

27:41

audience, explain the for

27:41

Dummies version, so to speak,

27:45

what is an intercultural

27:45

intelligence consulting

27:48

methodology? What how is it

27:48

different from, you know, run of

27:52

the mill, regular consulting, so

27:52

to speak?

27:56

Michael, I

27:56

think what one needs, the way

27:58

is, you know, the, probably the

27:58

easiest way to think about this

28:01

is, if you think about an ice

28:01

cream, you know, an ice cream

28:05

cone, you have this nice, sugary

28:05

Kern in this nice big blob of

28:09

gelato on top of it, that's

28:09

consulting, right. And it's

28:13

really attractive to many of our

28:13

clients, especially when they're

28:18

in trouble. Because, you know,

28:18

here we come, we bring something

28:21

that hopefully will be tasty

28:21

that their employees and their

28:25

shareholders etc, will eat up,

28:25

and then we'll help them to

28:29

solve and, you know, some form

28:29

of problem that they have, I

28:32

think what interculturally

28:32

intelligent consulting is, is

28:35

really that, you know, that

28:35

sugar cone with a nice big blob

28:39

of chocolate covering over it,

28:39

right. And, and what we do is,

28:47

if you take, let's take, for

28:47

example, a standard big for

28:50

consulting process, right, where

28:50

you know, you're going into a

28:54

situation, you'll do some form

28:54

of pre analysis, understand the

28:58

current state, then applying

28:58

some benchmarking, in order to

29:03

conduct a gap analysis, then

29:03

develop a number of solutions,

29:08

proposed solutions, whether

29:08

those are solutions in terms of

29:11

process, in terms of structure

29:11

in terms of technology, these

29:16

days, very often technology

29:16

because of the whole development

29:18

in an agile technology, etc,

29:18

etc. And, and then some form of

29:25

an implementation plan. And

29:25

hopefully, if you're lucky, you

29:28

can walk away before the

29:28

implementation starts, because

29:30

then it's not your problem if it

29:30

doesn't work, right. So that's

29:34

the traditional kind of four

29:34

stage process that that

29:38

consultants typically use. I

29:38

think what makes the the, the

29:42

ICI way of doing it differently

29:42

is, if that's the ice cream and

29:47

the ice cream cone, the

29:47

chocolate is taking a step back

29:51

and during each of those

29:51

different phases, applying a

29:58

different lens and then to say

29:58

right As we do the current state

30:01

analysis, but what do we need to

30:01

understand not only about the

30:06

organization, but also about the

30:06

people within that organization,

30:11

how they view the world, you

30:11

know, how they engage with life,

30:16

culturally. But what do we need

30:16

to understand about that, so

30:20

that both, we can both

30:20

understand what they're all

30:24

about. And very importantly,

30:24

when we communicate to them,

30:29

what we found that we

30:29

communicate that in a way that

30:32

you know, that they can

30:32

understand themselves. And when

30:34

I say that, I mean, not, you

30:34

know, conceptually, but at a

30:39

heart level, because often the

30:39

issue is not knowing what I'm

30:43

saying, it's feeling what I'm

30:43

saying, it doesn't resonate with

30:47

me what you're trying to explain

30:47

to me that it's not a case of

30:50

does it make sense that

30:50

something can make sense

30:53

perfectly. But if it doesn't

30:53

resonate with you, it's not

30:57

going to be something that you

30:57

can implement or use? Right? So

31:00

I would say, that's the major

31:00

difference. And it sounds a

31:04

superficial, very easy thing to

31:04

do, but it's not. And I think,

31:08

you know, some of the

31:08

methodology that we've developed

31:11

over the years, really allows

31:11

you to take a step back, apply

31:16

that lens, and then apply best

31:16

practices in a way that

31:20

resonates with the heart, and

31:20

therefore is, you know, easier

31:24

to implement.

31:25

Now, in our network, we have a number of people that makes it Yeah,

31:27

absolutely, absolutely. We have

31:30

a number of people in our

31:30

network who have actually said,

31:35

I joined the ICI network,

31:35

because in some of the firms,

31:39

I'm not relationally allowed to

31:39

get involved the client, because

31:44

everything the chocolate on top

31:44

of the ice cream is really very

31:48

relational. Right. So it is, it

31:48

almost is a little bit

31:55

counterculture within the

31:55

consulting world.

31:59

It is lacO it

31:59

is. And, you know, I've also

32:04

often set in in many not only

32:04

meetings in planning, and large

32:09

scale, accounting engagements,

32:09

where we need to put strategies

32:14

together to either win work, or

32:14

make large engagements

32:19

successful. But even, you know,

32:19

being involved over many years,

32:23

in the training of consultants,

32:23

with some of the big four firms,

32:28

I had the privilege of running,

32:28

what we would call the, you

32:33

know, the basic consulting

32:33

training courses or manager

32:38

training courses. And even in

32:38

those courses being told, Look,

32:41

we are here to deliver

32:41

methodology to deliver

32:46

solutions, they are clients,

32:46

that methodology is key, right?

32:50

So we are not here to adapt, we

32:50

are here to bring these

32:53

individuals or these

32:53

organizations, really find

32:56

solutions that work. But then

32:56

throughout the conversation, as

33:01

you start talking about

33:01

experiences that that many of my

33:06

colleagues have had, then it

33:06

always comes out that you know,

33:08

what, actually, I had to

33:08

completely redesign and re

33:13

reimagine this solution that was

33:13

given to me from our method set,

33:18

because it had to, you know, did

33:18

not wasn't applicable to my

33:21

client. And, and then I always

33:21

sit back and I say to me,

33:26

myself, you know, this is so

33:26

sad. Because as a firm, you

33:31

know, the big four, the strategy

33:31

houses, they spend millions on

33:35

developing methodology. And

33:35

there is nothing wrong with that

33:39

methodology. My my take on this

33:39

situation is that you don't have

33:45

to adjust the methodology,

33:45

you've got to be able to have

33:49

the methodology resonate with

33:49

the clients. All right. There's,

33:54

let's take something classic,

33:54

like for example, the balanced

33:57

scorecard, right? There's

33:57

nothing wrong with the balanced

34:00

scorecard. How can us though,

34:00

talk about the balanced

34:04

scorecard, to make sure that

34:04

that resonates with someone that

34:08

is looking at it from a, you

34:08

know, what we would call a guilt

34:10

innocence point of view, or

34:10

mindset, which, which probably

34:14

is easier because you've got all

34:14

these different categories?

34:17

These buckets are things that

34:17

you measure, and you either

34:20

measure up to it or you don't,

34:20

right. More importantly, how

34:23

how, how do you make it resonate

34:23

to someone that doesn't look at

34:27

the world in terms of, you know,

34:27

buckets of things that I

34:31

mentioned, that I measure up to

34:31

or not, but rather, that looks

34:35

at the world in terms of groups

34:35

of people that I relate to, that

34:39

I need to, you know, that I need

34:39

to either satisfy or honor. It's

34:44

a completely different approach.

34:44

So it's not about changing the

34:47

methodology. It's about how do

34:47

you take that methodology and

34:51

talk that methodology through in

34:51

a way that can resonate in the

34:56

hearts of the clients and I know

34:56

this probably sounds very, you

34:59

know, touchy feely to many of

34:59

the hardcore consulting types,

35:02

but it has to resonate, you

35:02

know, we always talk about

35:06

resonating, but resonate with

35:06

the heart of the client. So yep,

35:11

which also

35:11

is linked to, you know, having

35:14

an impact that lasts. Because if

35:14

that doesn't happen, I've seen

35:18

time and time again, you walk

35:18

away, you think you've had a

35:21

successful project. But if you

35:21

had the chance to revisit or

35:25

hear, you know, what has

35:25

happened three 612 months later,

35:29

then it all has fizzled out. It

35:29

wasn't, it wasn't really taken

35:34

to heart by the client. Now, you

35:34

had a chance to get into

35:41

academia in in the Gulf region,

35:41

actually, we had the chance as

35:45

KnowledgeWorks to train over

35:45

five and a half 1000 Gulf

35:48

nationals on cultural agility,

35:48

which was fantastic opportunity,

35:53

you were embedded in the system,

35:53

and was inspired. In that way,

36:03

you had the chance to work with

36:03

people who were who come from a

36:08

very different context. So how,

36:08

as a as a lecturer, as a

36:12

researcher, were you able to use

36:12

cultural agility to connect with

36:17

your students, with their

36:17

families, etc?

36:20

Well, I think,

36:20

um, let me use a really

36:24

interesting story to tell you in

36:24

this regard. A few years ago, a

36:28

number of years ago, you would

36:28

be aware of the study, we were,

36:31

there was something called the

36:31

glow project. Right? So this was

36:35

a study done many years ago,

36:35

looking at something called

36:38

authentic leadership, and what

36:38

does that look like, you know,

36:40

in different parts of the world.

36:40

So at the time, I was teaching

36:44

leadership at the Dubai Men's

36:44

College, and I thought, Well,

36:49

what a wonderful opportunity to

36:49

expose my students to, you know,

36:56

different ways of thinking about

36:56

leadership. And, unfortunately,

37:01

there was a gap in the study in

37:01

that one of the, you know, the

37:04

countries that were not for the

37:04

regions that were not fully

37:07

represented, was the, you know,

37:07

the GCC, and I suggested to my

37:11

students, let's do a study,

37:11

where we look at the different

37:15

ways in which Emiratis describe

37:15

and understand leadership. And,

37:22

and I knew that they were

37:22

different tribes within the, you

37:25

know, the Federation. And I

37:25

thought it would be really

37:28

interesting to see, you know, we

37:28

use the same methodology use the

37:32

same question, etc. And they had

37:32

to go out and speak to their

37:35

families, and then find out now

37:35

how do how do Mr. T's view

37:41

leadership? What does authentic

37:41

leadership mean to them? And

37:45

that I discovered was the

37:45

biggest mistake ever. Because

37:49

the first thing that happened

37:49

during the conversation was not

37:52

talking about, you know, what is

37:52

authentic leadership mean. But

37:57

immediately the conversation was

37:57

about who is Emirati? It was so

38:02

funny, because, you know, you

38:02

had different as you know,

38:06

yourself different tribes. And

38:06

those tribes were, obviously

38:09

from different parts of the

38:09

country, and have been there for

38:13

longer periods. And they were

38:13

big arguments about Now, which

38:16

of these tribes are really in

38:16

our Emirati tribes are not

38:19

Emirati tribes. So scoping your,

38:19

your sample here was was really

38:24

difficult because they couldn't

38:24

agree who was in scope and who

38:27

was not. But behind that story,

38:27

lies, I think, to me one of the

38:33

most important opportunities to

38:33

apply to cultural intelligence,

38:36

because in that conversation,

38:36

that started becoming highly,

38:40

highly emotive, which you can

38:40

imagine. It almost reminded me

38:45

of the time in the military when

38:45

I was involved in the

38:48

integration in South Africa,

38:48

where I now had these tribes

38:52

sitting in front of me in the

38:52

classroom, you know, starting to

38:55

almost wanting to get into

38:55

fisticuffs about, you know,

38:57

other guys from Elaine, are they

38:57

really where it is, or the guys

39:01

from Dubai or the guy from Abu

39:01

Dhabi, and having to step back

39:06

and use the process of

39:06

intercultural intelligence that

39:11

we've learned to ask to get

39:11

these guys to stop? Alright,

39:15

step back. Right. So let's start

39:15

and think about ourselves as

39:20

participants in the slaughtered

39:20

who are we, in a how do we

39:25

behave and like to behave? How

39:25

do we present ourselves? Who are

39:29

we now dealing with

39:29

infrastructure, guys that are

39:32

coming from some of those tribes

39:32

in our lane, or some of these

39:35

tribes and on the wrong side of

39:35

the highway in Dubai, as you

39:38

would know, right? And how do we

39:38

learn about one another, so that

39:44

we can have a very, you know,

39:44

peaceful and productive

39:49

conversation about what is

39:49

authentic leadership in an

39:53

Emirati context? And it was

39:53

really interesting because it

39:55

took a while it took about three

39:55

weeks of you know, of sessions.

40:00

get to that point where guys

40:00

could really start trusting one

40:06

another in order to talk about

40:06

this very, very emotive topic,

40:12

so that we get to a solution in

40:12

terms of you know, what, what is

40:18

authentic leadership look like

40:18

in the Emirati context? And and

40:21

what can we learn about, then

40:21

how can we use that for the

40:24

future for them in their

40:24

careers, as well as they

40:26

practice their own leadership

40:26

within the government to other

40:30

organizations that they would be

40:30

working on. So you know, that's

40:33

just one example of, you know,

40:33

so it's not only about in the

40:40

traditional sense, getting

40:40

students to learn better, but

40:43

it's also getting them to want

40:43

to be wanting to really at a

40:45

deep level, engage with one

40:45

another, in order to, you know,

40:49

to learn and to grow as as young

40:49

men and woman.

40:53

And I think

40:53

the intercultural intelligence

40:56

framework in two ways allows

40:56

that to happen. You illustrated

41:01

beautifully, that on the one

41:01

hand, we are deeply connected to

41:05

families, tribes, nations, are

41:05

also unique, we have our own

41:10

unique cultural story, or own

41:10

unique cultural journey. And

41:16

connecting with that. And the

41:16

second thing is to actually have

41:20

a neutral language to talk about

41:20

it. So the language of the three

41:23

colors, a worldview, is in and

41:23

of itself, a neutral language,

41:27

there is no good or bad in it.

41:27

The same with the 12 dimensions

41:31

of culture. It's not that one,

41:31

one way of doing things is

41:35

better than another way of doing

41:35

things. So that neutrality of

41:38

the language really deepens the

41:38

conversation reminds me of a

41:42

project we ran in South Africa

41:42

with where coaching across

41:47

ethnic groups was incredibly

41:47

difficult, especially in the

41:51

early days. And, you know, a

41:51

coaching conversation between

41:55

let's say, a Caucasian, white,

41:55

South African and a, let's say,

42:00

a Zulu, South African, would

42:00

would stop halfway, or we would

42:04

never really reach the level of

42:04

depth you need for coaching. But

42:08

then, bringing the intercultural

42:08

intelligence framework in all of

42:12

a sudden, the conversations

42:12

started to last longer, they

42:15

went deeper, the coaches landed

42:15

on on profound ways that they

42:20

wanted to move forward, because

42:20

of the neutrality of the

42:23

language that we use. Now, for

42:23

you to continue after your even

42:29

academia, you got headhunted,

42:29

once again, into the, into the

42:33

big four space. When you think

42:33

about the world of consulting,

42:38

you, you now have a unique

42:38

opportunity, really, in your PhD

42:43

work to develop a method, right?

42:43

But a more culturally Agile

42:50

method. So talk to us about

42:50

that.

42:52

Thank you,

42:52

Marco. Yes, yeah, at a fairly

42:55

late stage in my life, I decided

42:55

to really go back into academia.

43:00

And, and I think, you know, in

43:00

many of the conversations that

43:06

even you and I, I think Mark,

43:06

over the last few years have had

43:09

with clients, we've realized

43:09

that it's really important to

43:12

put that, you know, the

43:12

academics and the practice

43:15

together. And I in talking to so

43:15

many of my academic colleagues,

43:21

you know, one of the challenges

43:21

that we have in academia, is to

43:26

really try and bring, you know,

43:26

the word, the ivory tower of

43:30

academia, and the, the, you

43:30

know, the dirty roadside

43:35

practice of doing things in real

43:35

life together. And that's not

43:40

always that easy. Now, there are

43:40

very good examples of where that

43:43

is currently being done very,

43:43

very well. But I think often

43:47

the, the issue is that some of

43:47

these theoretical or the

43:52

theories that are being put into

43:52

place or being developed in an

43:56

ivory tower, in an environment

43:56

where maybe the sample sizes are

44:01

our only other students

44:01

available at the university, or

44:04

we're looking at very specific

44:04

case studies that are not you

44:07

know, generalizable, etc, etc.

44:07

And specifically, in an area

44:13

where I am very interested in in

44:13

that is bringing about change.

44:17

And I think something that is

44:17

core to what knowledge works

44:19

does is this idea of positive

44:19

behavioral change in people,

44:23

right, whatever that means for

44:23

the person that is involved in

44:28

the process. So change

44:28

management has always been

44:30

really important to me. And what

44:30

we are trying to do at the

44:33

moment and I had the privilege

44:33

of being allowed on to the

44:38

doctoral program at the

44:38

University of Capetown for

44:42

Graduate School of Business is

44:42

we are trying to have a look at

44:47

if we think about the ways in

44:47

which people support a change,

44:52

right. So typically, in a in an

44:52

environment where we engage in a

44:57

planned change and very often

44:57

And, you know, you will know,

45:01

with many of the clients that

45:01

you work with as well, changes

45:04

often planned, right? So, you

45:04

know, we now need to adopt a new

45:08

strategy, or implement a new

45:08

technology, or there's something

45:12

that needs to be done. And then

45:12

we work out, you know, this this

45:16

plan change intervention as a

45:16

start and an end date, and a

45:21

huge budget assigned to it. And,

45:21

and unfortunately, what you

45:26

know, the current research tells

45:26

us is that as many as one in

45:30

three of those large

45:30

interventions failed dismally.

45:35

And more importantly, almost 25%

45:35

of the value of this

45:41

intervention gets lost even

45:41

before implementation starts. So

45:46

it is significant significant is

45:46

significant. Yeah. So a lot of

45:50

work has been done to try and

45:50

find out now what can we do to

45:53

make these change interventions

45:53

more successful. So there's a

45:57

lot of a lot of work that has

45:57

been done in the past to start

46:00

thinking about what is what is

46:00

being referred to as the deepest

46:05

structures underneath or that

46:05

underlying change management. So

46:10

instead of just looking at the

46:10

standard change process of

46:14

formulating the change,

46:14

communicating the change, and

46:17

then training people to be able

46:17

to implement what is being

46:21

changed, and then following on

46:21

in terms of whether it's been

46:23

done correctly. Now, what what

46:23

is underneath that? Because

46:27

obviously, that in itself, seems

46:27

and sounds really simple, but it

46:31

doesn't seem to do the job. And

46:31

I think what we've started to

46:34

discover is something that I

46:34

think acknowledge works. And

46:39

we've, we've ici we ran across

46:39

many years ago, and that is that

46:43

people look at the world in

46:43

different ways, right? So people

46:46

have different views of the

46:46

world. So when I run this

46:50

straightforward change process,

46:50

in a specific context, I need to

46:55

understand what are some of

46:55

these deep worldview structures

46:59

of those individuals involved in

46:59

the in the change process, and

47:03

that's what we're working on at

47:03

the moment. So it's not not so

47:07

much changing, you know,

47:07

evidence based practice, as far

47:11

as Change management is

47:11

concerned, a recent study that

47:14

was done in 2019, you know,

47:14

identified a significant amount

47:19

of really well designed best

47:19

practices that really do work.

47:24

But unfortunately, they don't

47:24

work always. And they don't work

47:28

everywhere. So what we're hoping

47:28

to do, is by shining the

47:34

spotlight of cultural worldview,

47:34

over the whole change management

47:38

process, is to identify whether

47:38

one of these deep structures and

47:44

worldview has been identified as

47:44

one of those deep fractures,

47:47

whether that influences the way

47:47

people change, and whether it's

47:51

something that if we keep it

47:51

into account, we can use to help

47:54

people change more successfully

47:54

and direct really is the, you

47:58

know, the foundation of my study.

48:01

And it's an

48:01

opportune time as well, because

48:04

if you look at the amount of

48:04

change that humanities has to go

48:08

through right now it has

48:08

escalated, or, you know, evolved

48:12

rapidly. So it's exciting, I

48:12

look forward to seeing the

48:17

results of that flow into the

48:17

world around us. Thank you. It's

48:20

been really good to, to go back

48:20

into history a bit with you,

48:26

George, there's so much to talk

48:26

about, but also, time is, is

48:32

always with us. So in closing,

48:32

of course, you know, you talk

48:37

about change management, a

48:37

significant part of consulting

48:40

practice, change management is

48:40

always almost always part of any

48:44

consulting initiative in some

48:44

way or another. But when you if

48:48

you were to summarize what you

48:48

think, a globally functioning

48:54

consultant in today's world,

48:54

what would you say to them? What

48:58

do they need? What should they

48:58

pursue in terms of personal

49:02

development in terms of how they

49:02

can be better at doing their job

49:06

in a global interculturally?

49:06

complex world?

49:10

Right? Like, I

49:10

would think I would, I would

49:14

refer back to an old model, I

49:14

think that you and I spoke about

49:18

very often in the past, where we

49:18

talked about handset, and hotset

49:23

and mindset, right? And I think

49:23

if I had to advise, and I do,

49:29

even now when I work with other

49:29

consultants, or in the past,

49:32

when I was training consultants,

49:32

I often say to them, it starts

49:36

with what is in your heart,

49:36

right? So it's really about

49:41

looking forward and asking

49:41

yourself, Why am I a consultant?

49:46

Or what am I trying to achieve?

49:46

Both for myself in my career,

49:51

but also for my clients in

49:51

executing my career when I might

49:55

for them to watch right. So, if

49:55

I if I as a consult and are

50:00

engaging in this career as

50:00

someone that wants to help

50:03

others change positively, then

50:03

I'm on the right track, right,

50:07

so having the right heart set,

50:07

secondly, having the right

50:11

mindset. And I think from a

50:11

mindset point of view, I talk

50:16

about being able to put yourself

50:16

in the, in the shoes of a

50:21

client. And really, using a very

50:21

old definition of what we were

50:27

working with in the past, really

50:27

being able to identify what your

50:32

client is all about, being able

50:32

to interpret what you see

50:36

correctly, and then being able

50:36

to adapt to what you see, that

50:40

needs to be your mindset. Right.

50:40

So I'm doing this because I

50:44

really want to help my clients.

50:44

And the way in which I'm going

50:48

to help my client is really

50:48

understand my client, to

50:51

interpret what I believe I

50:51

understand correctly, and then

50:56

to adjust according, right. And

50:56

then lastly, when we talk about

51:00

handset now handset to me as

51:00

methodology. So, you know, one

51:05

can, one can be, you know, going

51:05

into this, this consulting

51:09

career with the best intentions,

51:09

right, with a willingness to be

51:14

agile. But if you do not have

51:14

methodology, then you know,

51:18

better than a, you know, a

51:18

second car salesman that, you

51:22

know that that's down the

51:22

street, you do need to

51:25

understand the methodology. So I

51:25

would recommend that as you

51:30

know, if you want to grow as an

51:30

intercultural consultant, and

51:33

don't just say, Well, you know,

51:33

we need to understand the

51:36

people, and then that'll solve

51:36

all the problems, you need to

51:38

understand methodology

51:38

methodology. And fortunately,

51:41

it's published in the top

51:41

journals. So you need to read

51:44

those journals. Sometimes

51:44

they're difficult to read,

51:47

because they are written in

51:47

highly academic language, that

51:50

they've got some really

51:50

important nuggets, that I hope

51:53

through our practice at the

51:53

University of Capetown, and

51:56

other very important schools,

51:56

and we will in the future be

52:00

able to make a lot more

52:00

digestible. But with that

52:04

methodology, and overlaid on top

52:04

of that, a mindset of wanting to

52:08

help clients through

52:08

understanding where they're

52:10

coming from understanding they

52:10

will views etc. And then having

52:14

the right heart, I want to help

52:14

them to improve, I think you

52:18

can't go wrong. The rest is in

52:18

the Big Four training manuals

52:22

already. So I don't tend to go

52:22

into all of that. But those are,

52:26

in my mind the three secrets to

52:26

success,

52:30

hard set

52:30

mindset and skill set.

52:32

Absolutely. I think that pushes

52:32

us beyond just method and

52:36

professionalism into a bit of

52:36

artistry as well, indeed, in the

52:40

as you're explaining it, I'm

52:40

thinking of a painter's palette,

52:43

indeed, painting some beautiful

52:43

work there. Well, thank you,

52:47

George, anybody who wants to

52:47

connect with George directly, as

52:51

always with our podcasts, his

52:51

contact details are in the notes

52:56

of this recording. So feel free

52:56

to reach out to George and start

53:01

a conversation with him. He's

53:01

part of our global network and

53:05

one of our partners, and he will

53:05

love to take this conversation

53:10

further with you. Absolutely.

53:10

And thank you, George, for for

53:14

joining during this session.

53:14

It's been my

53:16

pleasure. Thank you, Marco, it's lovely to judge you.

53:22

If you've

53:22

listened to this podcast before,

53:25

you may have heard us talk about

53:25

the intercultural intelligence

53:27

certification program. It's an

53:27

amazing 15 week journey, and the

53:32

next one launches in September,

53:32

you will join a small cohort for

53:35

weekly sessions and learn to use

53:35

tools like the three colors of

53:39

worldview and the cultural

53:39

mapping inventory. After

53:42

finishing your join our network

53:42

for over 600 practitioners in 70

53:46

countries to equip the world

53:46

with cultural agility to sign

53:50

up, look for the link in the

53:50

show notes. And I really hope

53:52

you can join us in September.

53:52

Now you thought we were done.

53:58

We're not done yet. George

53:58

George has agreed to some rapid

54:04

fire questions. So get to know

54:04

George a little bit better in

54:10

the next just 10 minutes or so

54:10

we'll have eight questions. So

54:13

it might be might be quicker

54:13

than 10 minutes. But some quick

54:18

questions. Keep it short.

54:18

George. Quick answers short

54:23

answers. You ready? I'm ready.

54:23

So what's your favorite thing to

54:28

do to recharge?

54:29

Oh man, I love I love to walk my dogs on

54:30

the beach. Especially now living

54:34

in Simon Stan. There's nothing

54:34

more rewarding to do.

54:40

That's

54:40

great. Who is the most

54:44

inspirational person in your life?

54:47

Other than you

54:47

Mako? No, no, I would, I would

54:52

say probably. And it's a bit of

54:52

a cliche sometimes especially

54:59

for the African But somebody

54:59

like Nelson Mandela, is really

55:02

somebody that has stirred me. So

55:02

there are many, many

55:07

inspirational people in my life,

55:07

I can think of my good wife,

55:10

Sandra, who really is always

55:10

next to me. But in terms of, you

55:15

know, in the broader sense,

55:15

somebody like Nelson Mandela,

55:18

someone like Desmond Tutu passed

55:18

recently, very sadly, who

55:22

really, you know, could step out

55:22

there and show others what

55:26

intercultural intelligence

55:26

really looks like, you know, not

55:29

just talk about it, but really,

55:29

you know, put the rubber to the

55:32

road, as you say.

55:34

Yeah, yeah.

55:34

That's one of the most

55:37

interesting places you've visited.

55:39

Ah, okay.

55:39

Yeah, actually, I've been to and

55:42

I've had the privilege of going

55:42

to end Arctica. And it's a it's

55:46

an arctic and Africa. Yeah. And

55:46

it's a really good place to see

55:49

into cultural intelligence in

55:49

place in play, and you think,

55:53

well, there's nobody there. But

55:53

if you look at Antarctica, you

55:57

think it's white, right? But

55:57

actually, it is a million

56:01

different shades of grey. It is

56:01

amazing in terms of, you know,

56:05

the different sediment in the

56:05

ice. And it just makes me think

56:09

of us as people. You know, it's

56:09

just such a beautiful tapestry

56:12

of, of different differences,

56:12

but actually very, very similar

56:17

ELO colors, it actually comes

56:17

together something that's really

56:21

beautiful. Right?

56:22

Fascinating.

56:22

Fascinating. What are you

56:24

currently reading?

56:26

Oh, I'm

56:26

reading 110 academic papers.

56:34

That's not

56:34

really inspirational. For me, at

56:37

least. Let's say, let's say,

56:37

let's say a book that that is

56:44

that you think I'm happy I

56:44

picked up that book.

56:46

Yeah. No,

56:46

actually. It's a book that I'm

56:50

rereading at the moment, in fact, and I think it's still in the

56:51

back of my on my wall, if I can,

56:56

I can find it. But it's a text on leadership

56:57

within the military. And it's

57:02

called it's your ship. So I

57:02

think you've maybe seen it. So

57:07

it's a life lessons from the

57:07

best damn ship in the Navy. It's

57:10

called and what the what the guy

57:10

is really talking about is

57:14

taking ownership of what it is

57:14

that you are responsible for.

57:18

And how do you lead that process

57:18

of taking ownership and, and

57:24

also inspiring others to take

57:24

ownership of the in what we in

57:28

the Navy would call in the past?

57:28

You're part of ship? So yeah,

57:31

it's your ship? The the story of

57:31

the best damn ship in the Navy,

57:35

I think it's called Yeah, I can

57:35

definitely recommend that my

57:38

brilliant

57:38

right? Now, something totally

57:42

different. So if you were to

57:42

change your career to become a

57:47

professional athlete, right,

57:47

what sport would you choose?

57:52

Well, you know, I've

57:54

always been interested in

57:54

martial arts, and I would

58:00

definitely become one of the or

58:00

would like to become one of the

58:04

best Aikido players in the

58:04

world.

58:07

Aikido.

58:08

Yeah, and you

58:08

know, what Marco, I think, other

58:11

than the fact that it's a very

58:11

beautiful sport. What is amazing

58:15

to me is if one, if one really

58:15

takes the some of those, those

58:21

Gaitan practices, and really

58:21

perfects them, effortless, it is

58:26

right? To use both your own

58:26

energy and the energy of your

58:31

opponent to achieve some

58:31

objective, right? So the whole

58:33

idea of Aikido is not really to

58:33

use your own strength, but you

58:36

use, you know, the weight in the

58:36

movement, the velocity, whatever

58:40

of your of your opponent in

58:40

order to achieve whatever it is

58:44

that you're trying to achieve.

58:44

And that really fascinates me is

58:48

how do we that fluid movement,

58:48

almost a Tai Chi type of flow

58:52

between two people? It's

58:52

amazing. Yeah. So that really

58:56

stirs me. It's beautiful to

58:56

watch. Absolutely. It is. It is.

59:02

What's your

59:02

favorite food? Or

59:06

maca? You know that right? I think I'm I

59:06

unfortunately, and I apologize

59:11

to the vegans out there. I am a

59:11

red meat enthusiasts and

59:15

especially a good piece of

59:15

steak. My wife is trying to get

59:20

me off that but I'm afraid she's

59:20

failing in that one.

59:26

Nothing like

59:26

a good South African boy.

59:28

Absolutely. Now I asked you

59:28

about professional sports. But

59:33

when you think about if you had

59:33

the chance to start over and do

59:38

something totally different,

59:38

what path would you choose? What

59:43

would it look like?

59:44

If I had to

59:44

start over in a mock of my name

59:48

George it means farmer. And I do

59:48

believe there is there is a you

59:54

know there is value in once and

59:54

lots of meaning in that. So I

1:00:00

I've often thought it would be

1:00:00

nice to be a farmer, right? I

1:00:02

don't know whether I'll be a

1:00:02

farmer in the full sense of the

1:00:05

word, but something like a

1:00:05

gentleman farmer in the old in

1:00:09

the old days, so I could do a

1:00:09

little bit of consulting on the

1:00:11

side. But yeah, having a little

1:00:11

piece of land maybe here on the,

1:00:15

you know, in the, in the south

1:00:15

coast of Cape Town, and having a

1:00:20

few hits his head of cattle,

1:00:20

that would be that'd be quite

1:00:23

rewarding. And I think, you

1:00:23

know, the whole idea of, of just

1:00:27

taking something that, you know,

1:00:27

that God has given us and just

1:00:30

stewarding that, as I think we

1:00:30

should, with our relationships

1:00:34

with people in the business

1:00:34

context, I think that just

1:00:37

something that says me, and it

1:00:37

suits my name, right.

1:00:42

Wonderful.

1:00:42

Well, I'm glad we added these

1:00:45

few minutes to get to know you a

1:00:45

little bit better. Thank you for

1:00:49

doing this. Really appreciate

1:00:49

it. And it's my pleasure. Thank

1:00:53

you, everyone, for listening to

1:00:53

this episode. See you again next

1:00:57

time. Bye, bye. Thank you so

1:00:57

much for joining us for this

1:01:05

episode of the cultural agility

1:01:05

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1:01:09

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1:01:21

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1:01:21

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1:01:25

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1:01:25

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1:01:29

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1:01:29

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1:01:33

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1:01:33

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1:01:36

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1:01:36

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1:01:39

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1:01:39

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1:01:45

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1:01:45

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1:01:49

knowledge works team for making

1:01:49

this podcast a success. Thank

1:01:53

you Anita Rodriquez, Ara this

1:01:53

backyard, Reggie Suraj and

1:01:58

thanks to VIP and George for

1:01:58

audio production, Rosalind Raj

1:02:02

for scheduling, and Caleb

1:02:02

Strauss for marketing and

1:02:06

helping produce this podcast