0:01

I'm doing a lot of gesticulations. I

0:03

don't know if you can see it, but I'm doing it. This

0:07

is Unorthodox, the universe's leading Jewish

0:09

podcast. I am Stephanie Butnik, and

0:11

I'm joined by my two co-hosts,

0:13

tablet editor at large, Lael Liebovitz.

0:15

Who once again did not win a Grammy. And

0:18

my other co-hosts who maybe did win a

0:20

Grammy, Joshua Molina. I forgot to go

0:22

again, the Grammys. You forgot to go. I

0:25

don't even know if I won. Don't be shy. I

0:27

just didn't want to take the spotlight away from Joni

0:29

Mitchell. I was very kind of you. I was hoping

0:31

to win a Grammy and thank the God of the

0:34

Jews. If anyone would ever just give me an

0:36

award of some sort, I would thank the God of the Hebrews, and

0:38

I think it would be a great moment. We

0:41

have a jam-packed, info-packed show for you

0:43

today. Our Jewish guest is Richard Sandler.

0:45

He's a lawyer and the author of

0:47

the new book, Witness to a Prosecution,

0:49

The Myth of Michael Milken. We

0:52

will find out that this is a Lael obsession.

0:54

He and Josh get to talk to Richard about

0:56

all things financial. About Jews and

0:58

money. All things fiduciary. How about that? And

1:01

our gentle of the week is Alan Houston. You

1:03

got that right. That is former Nick, NBA

1:06

All-Star. He is amazing. And

1:08

he joins us to tell us about his new

1:10

faith-based initiative and the Jewish teen

1:12

who's helping him on the ground. We

1:15

cover everything today, I would say. There's

1:17

no stone left unturned. Money is basketball. Yes,

1:19

exactly. If you need more things than that in your life,

1:22

I don't know what you're even doing. You're doing it wrong.

1:24

So what's going on? Where in the world is

1:26

Joshua Molina? Yeah, I'm sorry to say due to

1:28

an extraordinary lack of foresight, I'm in my car.

1:30

I thought you were going to say foreskin. Outside

1:33

of my hotel. I also have

1:35

an extraordinary lack of foreskin that is true.

1:37

I'm sorry. I feel like I crossed the

1:39

line there. I'm sorry, guys. No, there are no

1:41

lines. I'm in Palm Desert

1:43

where I participated yesterday in NPR's

1:45

Selected Shorts, which is actors, performers

1:48

reading short stories, which was a

1:50

lot of fun. I

1:52

plan to beat it back to Los

1:54

Angeles early this morning, decided not

1:56

to to try to time it with the rain. As

1:58

a result, here I am. in low-quality audio

2:01

without my equipment in my car. I

2:03

have two things to say about this.

2:05

First of all, Selected Shorts is

2:07

a very good name for a series

2:09

in which Jewish actors just read things

2:11

out loud. Like now, Selected

2:13

Shorts Hebrews. Five

2:16

foot seven.

2:18

Breckenmeyer. Is he a Jew? I

2:20

don't know why he came to mind because he's

2:23

dating Bob Saget's wife now. Oh, thank him. Oh,

2:25

really? Yeah, I did not know that. Wow, that

2:27

is like a real 90s. Second

2:29

of all, can I tell you, Josh and

2:31

Melina, there is really nothing that amuses, I

2:33

think, New Yorkers more than to see the

2:35

way Angelinas react when there is rain. Oh,

2:37

I know. Can't deal with it at all.

2:40

Like everyone, this is not a drill. And

2:42

this is definitely a lot of rain, right? Like objectively,

2:44

a lot of rain is happening right now. Kids

2:46

in LA are having a rain day. A rain

2:48

day? I believe so. I did something wild

2:50

last night, something I have never done before. I

2:52

have never done anything even close to what I

2:54

did last night. I

2:56

went to the international

2:59

gathering of Chabad Shluhos.

3:02

Shluhos, am I saying this right? No, it's

3:04

okay. Shluhos, that's what they say. I love the Shluhos. No,

3:06

that's how they say it. The ex-he-y-dish-ism-ism-ism. No, that's how they

3:08

say it. Shluhos. Okay, so every year,

3:11

all of the Chabad families who

3:13

are around the world, they're called Shluhim,

3:15

they're emissaries. They're based in like basically

3:18

everywhere you've ever been to college or

3:20

everywhere you've ever vacationed. There's, Chabad House

3:22

and there's at least one couple running

3:24

it or there's a bigger community served by

3:27

many hundreds of Chabad Shluhim

3:29

emissaries. They do a conference

3:31

each year where they all come together and

3:33

they just basically do professional development, all the

3:36

things a big conference would do. There's one

3:38

for the women, there's one for the wives

3:40

who are so instrumental in running these Chabad

3:42

houses wherever they are. A few

3:45

of us ladies at tablet got invited

3:47

to the banquet the last night of

3:49

the conference, the Kinus conference. It was

3:52

at a massive expo center in Edison,

3:54

New Jersey. In fact, the only expo

3:56

center in the tri-state area that can

3:58

actually physically hold that. many people. It

4:01

was like 5,000 women. It was unbelievable. There was

4:03

a bunch of speakers. There was the best part,

4:05

which is a roll call, which is where they go

4:07

through every single city and every

4:10

single state, every single country that the

4:12

Chabad is in. You basically like

4:14

get up and cheer when it's time for you. And

4:16

for some of the bigger countries, they like blast music.

4:19

It was wild. It was like the craziest party

4:21

I've ever been to. And it was

4:23

so different from anything I've ever done. There was

4:25

an entire section of the expo hall with

4:28

a big sign that just said babysitting. Because

4:31

everyone brings their kids. And this is

4:33

this amazing thing where it's a bunch of young girls,

4:35

so like some of the daughters of the women taking

4:37

care of the younger children. I saw a young teen

4:39

carrying two babies and I said, we said, who are

4:41

they? And she said, this is my sister and this

4:43

is my cousin. As someone who is always trying

4:45

to figure out what to do with my kid, when I do like

4:47

a work thing or when I do a life thing, and I was

4:49

just like, how nice this is that you

4:52

just like, it's understood that you bring your kid

4:54

to this. And you could for bring. But I literally was

4:56

like, I think this might be like a deeply

4:58

feminist gathering. I just wanted to say how

5:01

nice it was to be at like a women's

5:03

professional gathering where babysitting was just like on the

5:05

table. These women are the best. They're

5:07

truly kind of, you know, co-partners in

5:09

running these amazing centers. My wife

5:11

attended as well at your table as you

5:13

know, and then told me all about

5:16

it. And the one thing that became clear to

5:18

me, because the male Kinnesi Shulkin is

5:20

my absolutely favorite event of the year. And

5:23

the reason, one of the many, many, many

5:25

reasons in addition to the great spirituality and

5:28

the camaraderie and just like dancing with, you

5:30

know, thousands and thousands of Jews, the

5:32

reason I love it and that I learned

5:35

was a very stark difference from the female

5:37

version because in our version of the party,

5:39

there is some drinking. And I understand that

5:41

at yours, they're really kind of. There was

5:44

wine on the table. It was very, very

5:46

sweet. It was not something that anyone was

5:48

drinking more than just a lachaim. I

5:50

saw a lot of pictures on Jewish Twitter

5:52

or Jewish X. What do you call it?

5:55

G-Wick. It looked like

5:57

it also looked a little bit like

5:59

a Netflix document. Yes, it

6:01

was all the things it was a wild Sunday night.

6:03

There was a massive horror at the end I just

6:05

felt like it was my version of the

6:07

Grammys So my favorite thing about

6:09

the male kinnis is the coach Because

6:13

you know, yeah big kinnis energy a

6:15

kinnis energy may God forgive us on

6:17

this is the

6:19

coach act because you come in and you check

6:21

your black hat and your black coat and Then

6:24

you have as I mentioned before if you look hind and

6:27

then I asked well you know at the end of

6:29

the night like how does everyone remember like oh that

6:31

was my hand my coat and then

6:34

I was introduced to the great Minhag the

6:36

great custom which I have since partaken

6:38

in of Actually

6:40

typing your name and phone number inside

6:42

your hat Because at some

6:45

point someone be like oh, hey Leo, I got your hats

6:47

like oh, thanks, man I have

6:49

yours too. So now now my black hat

6:51

which I own has has my

6:53

name and phone number in it The

6:55

only thing I could really compare it to was the Kappa

6:57

convention I went to before my senior

7:00

year where we also did the roll call where

7:02

like every chapter and was like Delta Beta So it was

7:04

a little bit like that also very different. It was a

7:06

nice for the ladies So that the

7:08

song goes there are no single ladies. No

7:10

single ladies. They're there. We're like, right Yeah,

7:14

what do you got going on? You know,

7:16

I am increasingly find myself occupied by So

7:20

over an unexpected miracle don't look now but

7:23

the Knicks are good again This is very

7:25

apropos our episode this week, but look I've

7:27

been a fan of this team since

7:30

day one Really the Knicks have not won

7:32

the championship since 1973

7:35

and have not played in the serious championship game and I

7:38

don't know how many years 20 at least

7:40

and all of a sudden this Really kind of

7:43

unlikely team of just really

7:45

young amazing Talents play

7:48

together and seemingly enjoy it and

7:50

win games and play beautiful games

7:53

and it's great because like I'd used to go in like at the beginning

7:55

of the season and The Celebrities

7:57

and Celebrity Row, which is a. Gasping

8:00

Madison Square Garden like oh my golly, all

8:02

of a most paypal. Yes the celebrities be

8:04

like. Here. Is Johnny

8:06

who you may or may? Then

8:09

they'll blake put some clip like

8:11

he played the gardener his assistant

8:13

on season six of Smallville eighteen

8:15

years ago. And. My Glossary:

8:18

The Site: Ladies and Gentlemen Michael J.

8:20

Fox Jennifer Grey Seven Made Good The Bad

8:22

Speller is about as like wow that that's

8:24

how you know that if forget about it

8:26

or this means that are I will no

8:29

longer be able to get this against. Us

8:33

and how does it work free as just as well

8:35

known celebrity How does it work when you when this

8:37

happened so they like to tell you in advance Is

8:39

it like your people call their people have any know

8:41

as the line of the clip how does it doesn't

8:44

take us behind the scenes when I was. Doing

8:46

by a poster. I gotta buy the

8:48

next games Rangers games and Mets games.

8:50

And would make it onto the jumbotron. that a

8:52

difference when it's slim pickens. I get

8:55

six minutes. Slim Pickens Simpson

8:57

Pickens's Euro is your poker

8:59

name. By Slim

9:01

Pickens preventing it's before me. where his old

9:03

are you like. Don't to a scandal flat.

9:05

Still, Westlink like to have a they do that.

9:07

At the Mets game that I went to do

9:10

when I was in town last spring, I was

9:12

given a choice to either throw in the first

9:14

pitch. Very high

9:16

stress. Yes, Exactly as the goonies bet

9:18

they said before we can put you

9:20

on the jumbotron A. That use a

9:22

clip. And so I picked a

9:24

clip. From. An episode of The

9:26

West Wing that Brad Whitford my Nemesis wrote

9:29

in which I have the lies I can't

9:31

act of a terrible actor. And

9:33

so they differ. Be funny and so

9:35

they play that on the jumbotron his

9:38

entire idioms and and then I allowed

9:40

bread Attend a he is your friend

9:42

for it not or to frankly a

9:44

little bit about. at some I will get to

9:46

the rest the cell but like you have this ongoing

9:48

like joke. Rivalry. I would you describe it? I

9:50

think it's a love hate thing. He loves me

9:52

and I hate it. when

9:56

did it start the last night were rubbish

9:58

oh nineteen eighty nine ninety ninety and he joined

10:00

the cast. Yeah,

10:02

we became fast friends and fast enemies.

10:04

We've never really talked about your pranking

10:07

history on this show. We'll get to

10:09

that, let's save that. I think we,

10:11

maybe like a porn episode, like a

10:13

special- Oh yes, porn. All Melina, all

10:16

pranking, singing, dancing. Yeah,

10:18

because you've never pranked us, which is honestly

10:20

offensive, as your co-host. So we'll get to that.

10:22

I just waited until I still fully counted. Let's move

10:24

beyond ourselves. Let's get to some news of the Jews.

10:28

News of

10:31

the Jews. Oh yeah. And

10:35

OTJ News of the

10:37

Jews. Just

10:41

one story this week. We've talked about this

10:43

before. I need to bring us back to

10:45

the most important thing on the genealogical radar

10:47

right now. Here's a headline from the New

10:50

York Times. 23andMe Breach

10:52

targeted Jewish and Chinese customers.

10:54

Lawsuit says. The genetic testing

10:56

company 23andMe is being accused of a class

10:58

action lawsuit of failing to protect the privacy

11:01

of customers whose personal information was exposed last

11:03

year in a data breach that affected nearly

11:05

7 million profiles. Luckily, it was not 6

11:07

million. That would have just been too much.

11:09

The lawsuit also accused the company of failing

11:11

to notify customers with Chinese and Ashkenazi

11:13

Jewish heritage that they appear to have

11:16

been specifically targeted or that

11:18

their personal genetic information had been compiled into

11:20

specially curated lists that were shared and sold

11:22

on the dark web. We do not like

11:25

to be on specially curated lists. We

11:27

don't like to be on any list,

11:29

but especially not curated and especially not

11:31

specially curated. I don't know a lot about

11:33

this lawsuit, but I bet the lawyer,

11:35

98% Ashkenazi Jew. I

11:37

mean, his name is literally Jay Edelson. He

11:41

does not need a 23andMe. I read that

11:43

this is the single biggest breach of

11:46

Jewish contact information since all

11:48

the black hats were stolen last year's split. I

11:51

Just wanna give you a little window into

11:53

this lawsuit. My father of two in Florida,

11:55

who is one of the lawsuits two named

11:57

plaintiffs, said in an interview that the 23andMe

11:59

Kitty. I'm at a birthday present last

12:01

year revealed that he had asked our a

12:03

Jewish heritage the Man school is identified in

12:06

the complaint only by his initials J L.

12:08

Spoke on the condition of anonymity because it

12:10

is feared for his safety. Unclear that's because

12:12

of being identified as Us kinda as if

12:14

you as or being a part of this

12:16

massive breached. The man who was lactose

12:18

intolerance spoken seduced him and. He

12:21

was looking to connect with relatives he

12:23

said we opted into of these are

12:25

called Dna Relatives or select information is

12:27

shared with other Twenty three Any customers

12:30

who might be a close genetic match

12:32

the hacker gained access to the seats

12:34

are and that information thought about five

12:36

point five million Dna Relatives profiles. The

12:38

provides include customers, geographic location, birthday or

12:41

family tree, and uploaded photos. This is

12:43

like a deep. Jewish Nightmare. I

12:45

don't know why I signed the so profoundly

12:47

creepy to the such. Were. All putting our

12:49

data into the system of I spit in a thing like I

12:51

know a part of it. Is that the

12:53

what's what's what's to worry about. It's

12:56

just me email biometric information about Jews

12:58

in their relatives. Available to

13:00

any malicious hacker on line I'm

13:02

sure. I'm sure no one with

13:04

any bad intentions would ever do

13:06

anything bad. With. A data seen

13:08

haven't gotten to the part about the hatter

13:10

called Golem The. So.

13:13

He saw the G O L Am, but uses an

13:15

image of Gollum from Lord of the Rings. Lover.

13:18

Yeah, it's it's both eggs essentially

13:20

and like epigenetic lead. terrifying and

13:22

then like on the surface, very

13:24

dangerous. And scary because people have your

13:26

address. If I was us about to boy

13:29

now as I I no longer need to

13:31

ask excuse me, Are you Jewish? I already

13:33

know. For. Tell you to

13:35

fill in the mouth. Of. How

13:37

funny would it be if it's like actually

13:40

the Rabbinic Assembly of America like the Conservative

13:42

Rabbis Movement or whatever that still this information

13:44

be? I guess you guys you need to

13:46

go to France or promotion campaigns and not

13:48

work the journeys to attend. This is our

13:51

doing It. Or. else is isn't

13:53

like israel cyber security was be very good like

13:55

sunday built figure out who the school a is

13:57

i think they have bigger problems right now going

14:00

on and be like, I think they're

14:02

preoccupied at the moment. Probably true. So if

14:05

anyone was affected by this breach, can you tell us

14:07

and can you tell us like, can we, I

14:09

don't know, it's gonna be very awkward of

14:11

family reunions coming up. Can you also tell

14:14

us why you gave DNA samples to a

14:16

commercial startup? I did that. I did it

14:18

too. It turns out I'm Asanazi Jew. Yeah,

14:21

I'm 97.1. But I am 1% North African.

14:23

So I'm a little Sephardic, guys. Not

14:26

a brag. Too late. You brag. I bragged.

14:28

That's it for News of the Jews. We'll

14:30

keep you posted on all legal issues involving

14:32

the Jewish people and their data. I'm

14:55

packing the book. The

14:58

series I host each spring with the Jewish

15:01

Book Council and the Jewish Museum is

15:03

starting back up and I could not be

15:05

more excited. On March 28, I'll be

15:07

talking Mizrahi and Sephardic diaspora journeys with authors

15:09

Jordan Salama and Elizabeth Graver. On April

15:11

18, I'll be joined by former unorthodox

15:13

guest Rabbi Diana Fersko and author Maurice Samuels

15:16

to talk about the continued rise of

15:18

anti-Semitism from Dreyfus to today. Those are both

15:20

in person at the Jewish Museum in

15:22

Manhattan. And for those of you who are

15:24

not in the Tri-State area virtually on

15:26

May 16, I'll be in conversation with

15:29

Rabbi Sharon Broust and Shai Held about

15:31

their new books. You can find all

15:33

of that info and how to register

15:35

for each of those events at tabletmag.com/unorthodox

15:37

live. Also, our second beautifully

15:39

Jewish craft along is starting up next

15:42

week to join our growing community. Head

15:44

to tabletm.ag slash beautiful. All right, let's

15:46

get back to the show. Thank

15:58

you. Gentile of the

16:00

Week is Alan Houston. He

16:02

is an NBA All-Star who played

16:05

nine seasons with the New York Knicks,

16:07

a team he still works with

16:09

today. He joins us to discuss

16:11

FISL, that stands for Faith, Integrity,

16:13

Sacrifice, Leadership, and Legacy. It's his

16:15

new organization and he joins us

16:17

on the show along with his

16:19

FISL co-founder and youth ambassador, Jewish

16:21

teen Nate Sugar. And because

16:23

he is a teen, also in the studio with

16:26

us is Nate Sugar's mom, the author Rebecca Sugar.

16:36

Alan Houston, Nate Sugar, welcome

16:39

to Unorthodox. Thank you.

16:41

Thank you so much for having me. It's my

16:43

pleasure to be here. Excited to be here. Alan,

16:45

do you want to start with you? Tell us

16:48

who you are. Well, my name is Alan Houston.

16:50

I'm from Louisville, Kentucky. I'm a

16:52

former New York Knicks. Played for the

16:54

Knicks for nine seasons. Before

16:56

I was with the Knicks, I was drafted by

16:58

the Detroit Pistons in 1993. Played

17:01

for four years at the University of Tennessee. Where

17:05

my father was my head basketball coach

17:07

and he was the first black head

17:09

coach in Southeastern Conference history. Grew

17:12

up two doors down from Muhammad

17:14

Ali in Louisville, Kentucky. And so

17:17

now currently, I kind of went backwards

17:19

and now going back to currently. Currently,

17:21

I'm still working with the Knicks in

17:23

a development role. My wife and

17:25

I have seven children. We

17:28

are extremely blessed. And the

17:31

topic for today, which is why I'm so

17:33

grateful that I got to meet Rebecca and

17:35

Nate, is I launched

17:37

a social impact initiative with

17:39

the acronym of Fizzle, Faith,

17:41

Integrity, Sacrifice, Leadership, and Legacy.

17:44

We're a social impact initiative and

17:46

our mission is to just incorporate

17:48

those values for young people to

17:51

make them exciting and new and fresh,

17:53

to live them throughout their lives. And

17:56

met Nate, who wanted to be an ambassador,

17:58

through a friend of mine. I was a coach

18:00

and Nate said, look, I

18:02

really like what you're doing. This message

18:05

is relevant to all of us in

18:08

every facet of culture. I

18:10

want to get young people to talk more about

18:12

faith. I was inspired

18:14

by that and so here

18:16

we are. I love this. Nate, same

18:19

question to you. Who are you and how did you

18:21

get involved with this amazing? I

18:23

don't think my resume is to be as impressive

18:25

as Mr. Houston's, but I'm a 17-year-old kid. I

18:29

go to a Jewish day school called Ramaz.

18:31

Huge Knicks fan, been following them all my

18:33

life and I play on the

18:35

basketball team at my school. So a

18:38

huge basketball fan overall. Because I'm such

18:40

a big Knicks fan, obviously I was

18:42

just looking at their social media page

18:44

and realized that compared to other NBA

18:46

teams, their social media pages in terms

18:48

of their followers and views they were

18:50

getting, way lower than you would expect

18:52

for arguably the most well-known basketball

18:55

team in the world. I

18:58

came up with this kind of presentation

19:00

through my trainer who knew Mr.

19:02

Houston, got me in touch with him and I

19:04

gave that presentation to him and he really loved

19:06

it. So he took it to the Knicks and

19:09

unfortunately it didn't really work out, that

19:11

idea, but we stayed in touch and

19:14

early this fall, we started talking about

19:16

this faith campaign and what this

19:18

is going to look like. My mom

19:21

was telling me about the National Black Empowerment

19:23

Council and I thought this could be a

19:25

great way, we could mix this in and

19:27

get them involved and they have great networks

19:29

and we all got on Zoom and connected

19:32

and it kind of just went from there.

19:34

I love that the 17-year-old was brought in from

19:36

bad social media. He was like, you guys have

19:38

to do better, but then you end up making

19:40

this whole new project, right? Together where you're sort

19:42

of talking about something really important,

19:44

but doing it in a way that connects

19:46

to young people, right? It sort of brings

19:48

us back to how do we engage young

19:50

people today. So I'm curious, what have the two

19:52

of you learned from working with each other? I

19:55

mean, Mr. Houston is unbelievable mentor

19:58

and learning from him. talking

20:00

to him has been an unbelievable experience and

20:02

it's been so much fun to meet a

20:04

guy like him and he's

20:06

a hero of mine almost, Nick's icon,

20:09

legend, but beyond that, just the way

20:11

he's involved faith in his life and

20:13

the way he talks about it, it's

20:15

inspiring. Before I even let you answer,

20:17

Alan, let me sharpen the question. I wonder if you

20:19

could tell us what is the

20:21

problem, if you will, that this organization

20:24

or the challenge that this organization

20:26

is here to address? If Fizzle does

20:28

its job correctly, which of course it

20:30

will, what is it doing for

20:32

young people? The genesis and

20:34

the inspiration was my relationship with my

20:36

father and my parents. I grew up

20:39

in the west of Louisville, Kentucky and

20:42

even though we didn't have a lot

20:44

of money, we had values and we

20:46

had love and a lot of the

20:48

things that I carried with me throughout

20:51

my basketball career. Because I was fortunate enough

20:53

to play professional basketball at a high level,

20:55

I just got to see a lot of

20:57

different facets of people in society. One thing

21:00

that was always been a passion of mine

21:02

is youth and their plight

21:04

and what they're going through. I

21:07

have seven children and every day we're

21:09

really just trying to see how can we

21:11

help them be in the best situation, prepare

21:13

them for success, but really

21:15

help them understand what their values, who

21:18

they are, their identity, their purpose. I

21:21

would say that especially since COVID,

21:24

especially with social media and our

21:26

mental health state, I

21:28

would say that we're really trying to

21:31

allow young people to and prepare them

21:33

to really lead the next generation the

21:35

way our culture deserves.

21:39

In order to do that, they have to have an

21:41

understanding of who they are and their purpose. According

21:44

to a certain higher level of thinking and

21:46

values, they have to be called and set

21:48

apart from what the culture is

21:50

providing and suggesting to them. That's

21:53

where Nate, and I think a lot of his peers come

21:56

in. There are a lot of young people who are... We're

21:59

being told that... that young people are just

22:01

kind of being dumbed down by social media, but there are

22:03

a lot of young people who have a lot of aspiration,

22:05

a lot of ambition, and we

22:08

want to kind of allow them to be

22:10

equipped to use what

22:12

we have, what is AI technology, culture,

22:15

whatever it is, in a positive way. And

22:18

I think being a young person, you're influenced

22:21

by your peers, so we want to like

22:23

tap into other peer networks who are thinking

22:25

the same way and thinking about faith and

22:27

values. So I want to talk about faith

22:30

and values for a second because so

22:32

much of the culture is kind of gross

22:35

and crass and seems to move in a

22:37

very opposite direction, but one reason I like

22:39

sports, one of many, is that

22:42

you look at athletes, you look at players, and it

22:44

seems like there's genuinely a

22:47

vast proportion of them that

22:49

are quite serious about their

22:52

faith. What is the faith part? I

22:54

get that sports great for like leadership

22:56

and integrity and personality, all that

22:58

stuff, but talk

23:01

a little bit specifically about faith. I

23:03

guess it starts off with, when I

23:05

step on the court every day, I have to

23:07

have faith in what I've done in my training

23:09

and that it's going to translate over to the

23:11

game, but that only takes you so far. And

23:13

I think with me, I have to also have

23:15

faith in God that he's going to

23:17

help me do the best I can and my team

23:20

ultimately hopefully win. See, there's so many things, because usually

23:22

we see players go like, kids in

23:24

like point to heaven, and everything's like, oh, come

23:26

on, really? You thank God for this touchdown or

23:28

this basket or whatever, but like you're

23:30

here telling us, no, it's legit. I'm actually feeling

23:33

this way. Yeah, I think, you know, I

23:35

wear a kippah every game. And so like,

23:37

I think I always have God on my mind before

23:39

the games, after the game, during the game, he

23:42

definitely is playing a role. And it's not just,

23:44

you know, obviously the work I put in is

23:46

helping me get to where I am, but it's

23:49

God that's there every step with me.

23:51

Hashem, help us beat Heschel. Yeah. They're

23:54

not so good this year. So, yeah. No,

23:56

I, my kids go there and he has like, that's

23:59

true. an 8 with you, Alan?

24:01

Is that how you feel when you play

24:03

the game? Well, I think that's what I,

24:05

to me, why I wanted Nate to answer

24:07

because I think it's important for young people

24:09

and anyone for us to know what define

24:11

what faith means. It's not just celebrating a

24:14

moment where I've had success, right?

24:16

It's about celebrating and acknowledging where

24:18

the gift came from in the first

24:20

place to even be able

24:22

to participate. You know, my son

24:25

played for Brown University and he completed his fifth

24:27

year at Louisville when they lost in the bowl

24:29

game and after the game, we all had a

24:31

moment where we just cried with him because it

24:33

was his last game. And I told my kids,

24:35

I said, look, it's

24:37

a blessing to have something that you are

24:39

so passionate about that you can feel the

24:41

strong about to compete in, to

24:43

commit it to. Right? That's a

24:46

blessing that God has given us that

24:48

whether we win or lose, you've

24:50

had the blessing to compete and

24:53

to experience these things and

24:55

to get through them when they got tough. And

24:58

that is really where we say

25:00

faith lives in every, it's our

25:02

foundation of our being. It's a

25:04

lifeline. And for a lot

25:06

of what's happening in our world, especially now

25:09

or anxiety, depression, you know, we have a lot

25:11

of young people who are having a lot of

25:13

struggles as well as we all are, but it

25:16

is the faith that keeps us motivated.

25:18

It keeps us hopeful. It keeps us

25:20

courageous and it does give us our

25:22

identity. So I believe when a

25:24

young person like Nate can

25:26

really pull on that

25:29

and inspire other young people to say,

25:31

yeah, that is really what I

25:33

feel is important, it can get

25:35

them through. So Nate, you're here

25:37

representing all young people. Here's an ambassador

25:40

to everyone who's 18 and

25:42

under. Open up your chair. As such, do

25:44

you feel that the young, as

25:46

they're known, do you feel this message

25:49

resonates? Do you feel that, you know,

25:51

when you talk to your teammates, your

25:53

friends about God, about the importance of

25:55

integrity, leadership, all these things that the

25:57

foundation is here to promote? That

26:00

resonate with them are like a com I manage.

26:02

Want to win the game? Psyche get a better

26:04

scholarship or so I can have bragging rights or

26:06

whatever. Yeah well. I think for faith, especially for

26:08

it. Like young people like me and even for

26:10

myself, we don't really have it all figured out

26:13

and what are feals? air you us with us,

26:15

It's it's a journey I say we don't I

26:17

don't know what face means me fully and someone

26:19

may may be on his on a different journey.

26:21

So see it may be. Does a kid on

26:23

my team? who who says oh, set up by

26:25

i don't want to hear about God right now,

26:28

you know, but you know they're just on. A

26:30

different journey than I am and the goal is

26:32

of this whole faith campaign is to allow for

26:34

more conversation just to get more people involved and

26:36

to really so they they they can resonate with.

26:38

It was sort of the work out of the

26:41

can be initially work with but it's fizzle going

26:43

to yeah. so. What? We have right

26:45

now as we're having videos be sent in

26:47

from all sorts of people young own famous

26:49

nasir see or talk about what their faith

26:52

mean them to try to ignite this kind

26:54

of conversation and you know we have was

26:56

just starting out so we still have more

26:58

room to grow I and with with see

27:01

what different possibilities of where this can go

27:03

as right now it's kind of just videos

27:05

being sent in and we're We're posting on

27:07

social media so they may be young people

27:10

who are ya scrolling through tic toc or

27:12

whatever or Instagram. Kampala These videos

27:14

and you know really start to think about it.

27:16

You have. Such as sense of your own

27:18

religious identity, right? It induced all the things

27:21

you do whether it's school or in your

27:23

day to day life or on. The best.

27:25

Lockhart and Alan I'm curious for you. And.

27:27

Cures a little bit about your own seats. Dirty. Were

27:30

you raised religious? Visit A We sort of a part

27:32

of you the way it is now. He sort of

27:34

have some ups and downs along the way. I mean,

27:36

it's it's It's unusual to hear young. Person speak

27:38

so forcefully about say we don't

27:40

hear that off or off. It it's

27:43

very nice and was that sort of the way

27:45

you were growing up. I'm. i'm

27:48

and of as big as forceful what i was

27:50

kind of aware and of think that is should

27:52

not be in and probably to have young person

27:54

to do so forceful it's a big the around

27:56

there for a very best the goal rise the

27:58

goal is to everyone has a mess of faith.

28:00

Every young person has a measure. It's just that

28:02

they don't know how much they

28:05

truly have and where that the source of

28:07

it. And so we want to introduce

28:09

this and just bring it to the light moment. For

28:11

me, I became a Christian when I

28:13

was 14 years old.

28:15

It was brought up in the church

28:17

in Louisville, Kentucky. And I think for

28:19

me, I hadn't been introduced to the

28:21

concept of the tenets of Christianity. But

28:23

there comes a point where you have

28:26

to, God, what are you doing personally?

28:28

I needed a personal relationship. And

28:32

that's really where I kind of liken

28:34

and parallel my faith journey to a person

28:37

who you've been selected to join this

28:39

team. But you need

28:41

to really understand the coach. You need to understand

28:43

and spend time with the coach, to understand, you

28:45

know, have that relationship with the coach.

28:48

And that's where my relationship

28:50

with my father really helped and

28:52

my parents. Because I want young

28:55

people and also to see God as our true

28:57

father and one who loves us and cares for

28:59

us unconditionally. But there are going to be tough

29:02

times in life and that relationship is going to

29:04

get us through. But for me, I was

29:07

like Nate when I was aware, but

29:09

I may not have been as vocal

29:11

about it, but I was certainly aware

29:13

and conscious. And I

29:15

think young people, I think it's

29:17

so important. That's why I have a heart for it, because

29:20

I knew how much that meant to me to have that

29:22

awareness at a young age. And

29:24

even though we go through typical adolescent

29:27

and young adult years, we have our

29:29

challenges, we still have the foundation. So

29:32

now it's your turn to help others

29:34

understand. And you're doing this so wonderfully

29:36

with this organization. Before we let you go,

29:38

I would like both of you to

29:41

take a stab at doing exactly this. If

29:43

there's a person out there, particularly a young

29:45

person who like so many of

29:47

us right now is having a bit of a

29:49

rough time going at it, it needs

29:52

to hear sort of one thing. And it could just

29:54

be one bit of wisdom or

29:56

one bit of very practical advice to own

29:59

in. on faith,

30:02

integrity, leadership, et cetera.

30:04

What do you tell them? If someone is struggling with

30:06

their faith, I wasn't always, you know, I didn't

30:09

grow up and at four years old when I

30:11

first gained like real consciousness, I guess, I wasn't

30:13

like, God, I believe in you and you know,

30:15

everyone goes through a journey like I said before

30:17

and I think if you're in a tough time

30:19

right now, like questioning your faith or looking for

30:21

just that one thing that's gonna tell you God

30:23

is real or not, I don't think that's what

30:26

you should be looking for. I think you have

30:28

to look in little things that happen every day,

30:30

right, on a daily basis. The fact that you're

30:32

able to wake up in the morning and ride

30:35

a bike or something, all those little things

30:37

it's not just a natural course of life.

30:40

You know, you see so many people that

30:42

are possibly less fortunate than you and I

30:44

think that's God playing that role and to

30:46

give you what you do have. I think

30:48

if you're just more grateful honestly for what

30:50

you have and realize that what you do

30:52

have is coming from God, that

30:55

it can really help you out. Contemporary Israeli slang by the way,

30:57

he uses this exact words like let's see how God rolls with

30:59

this one. How's it gonna roll

31:02

it? Yeah, out to famous last words. I

31:05

mean, you know, Nate as a point

31:07

guard, just do a great assist

31:09

and I would just pick up that and

31:12

say look, just

31:14

believe, just believe that

31:16

God does have the best for us, the

31:19

best for you, he has a bright future

31:21

for you and we just have to, but

31:23

that's what faith is, right, it's not something

31:26

that we can look and touch and feel

31:28

and prove. It is a deep, deep belief

31:30

that I'm gonna trust that

31:32

God does have a future for

31:35

me and a positive future for me and

31:37

I just have to stick with that and hold

31:39

on to that belief and I think if I

31:42

can say that the things that have happened

31:45

in my life, I mean, I

31:47

haven't shared this a lot, but this is recently,

31:50

I had prostate cancer and my father

31:52

had it and even though

31:54

you have the treatments that have been proven

31:56

to be successful, there's a measure of you

31:58

that's saying, wow. But there

32:01

was never a doubt in my mind

32:03

that God has still a future for

32:05

me and has a future for me.

32:08

And I think it's in the moments where

32:10

you have those things where you

32:12

question, you're going to have doubts.

32:15

But the biggest thing is I never felt

32:17

like I was going to fail. And

32:19

I just would encourage young

32:21

people and older people, you know, just

32:24

believe, just believe that is that is

32:26

the gift that God has given

32:28

us is that gift. It's a gift of failure

32:30

to believe. Oh, Hashem. That

32:32

is beautiful. Thank you so much for joining us.

32:35

Our listeners can check out more about

32:38

Fizzle at fisll.com. There is

32:40

great merch, I have to say. There's really, really

32:42

cool NDA merch. So you will not be disappointed.

32:44

The social media is great. Alan

32:47

Houston, Nate Sugar, thank you so much for being

32:49

on Onorsita. Thank you. This is awesome.

32:51

Thank you so much. Mailbox.

33:08

Got a letter in the

33:10

mailbox. Got a letter in

33:12

the mailbox. Mailbox.

33:17

Here's Stephanie and Leo. Someone's left

33:20

out. Just saying. I know it is highly

33:22

unlikely that you will read this. Yeah, no,

33:24

you know what? Pretty freaking likely. However,

33:27

I figured I would write to you anyway.

33:29

I've started listening to Onorsita and I love

33:31

it because of my OCD I had

33:33

to start at the beginning. So I'm currently listening

33:35

with you both and Mark in 2015. Melina, you

33:37

are the man from the future. She's going to

33:39

be shocked by the time she gets to you.

33:41

There's a lot of things that happen before then.

33:43

I went on to the website to find your

33:45

email and was sad to see that Mark isn't

33:47

hosting any longer. However, once Joshua comes in, I'm

33:49

sure I will love him just as much as

33:52

I love Mark. Yes, that is completely correct. You

33:55

would love him. And he would

33:57

learn to hate that good for

33:59

nothing. I do

34:01

have eight years of listening to do

34:03

so. I'm not Jewish. My mother is

34:05

Vietnamese and my father was British, Welsh

34:08

and Portuguese. But having started an initial

34:10

ancestry.com account, which by the way I

34:12

bet was not hacked by anyone, I

34:14

already see about Sheba and Levi in

34:17

my father's maternal and paternal lineages. Perhaps

34:20

that explains my lifelong love for Judaism and

34:22

the Jewish people. I

34:24

have a feeling that once I do the

34:26

DNA test, there will be Sephardic Jewish blood

34:28

in me. Maybe even Ashkenazi. I don't know.

34:31

Levi. It could be anything. It's

34:33

interesting listening to your viewpoints in 2015.

34:35

October 7th has rocked my world. I

34:37

mourn along with the Jewish people. I

34:39

follow all the Jewish IG accounts, the

34:41

IDF, the state of Israel, every influencer.

34:45

Have you heard of her? She's an amazing

34:47

IG influencer and spreader of Israeli news. She

34:50

called me a Jews lover. The

34:52

perfect description. I don't think

34:55

I've ever wanted to be part of a tribe more.

34:57

What country other than Israel has soldiers flying

34:59

from all over the world to protect it?

35:01

What community comes together like the Jewish community

35:03

to spread love and not hate? I

35:06

am in constant awe. I am not sure why

35:08

I'm writing this. Maybe just

35:10

to say thank you for teaching me more about

35:12

Judaism. Maybe to share that I am one of

35:14

many non-Jews who stands with Israel and the Jewish

35:17

people. Thank you for your podcast.

35:19

A Gentile and

35:23

Gentile fan. Monique, you would hear

35:25

this message probably

35:27

seven years from now. Podcast years are

35:30

like dog years. Future Monique, this

35:32

is Leo from the year 2024

35:35

saying to you, thank you so

35:37

much for being not an ally, which

35:40

is an overused word that I don't

35:42

like, but truly a friend. By

35:44

the way, by the time Monique gets to this,

35:46

she will have done all the DNA testing. She

35:49

will realize she is, in fact, one of

35:51

us. She'll be Rebbezen, Mahanah, Batla,

35:53

or Gentile. I hope

35:56

she will write back in seven years and confirm

35:58

whether or not she is. loves me. I think you'll

36:01

be our favorite. One of my favorite things about this

36:03

show is when people write in with questions and then they

36:05

like it sparks just like a bajillion more discussions. And

36:08

this from Kay Miranda Gilbert in our Facebook group, I

36:10

think is the latest contender to do so. Kay

36:13

Miranda Gilbert brings up something very, very interesting.

36:15

She notes that when someone dies, she sees

36:17

Jews say two different versions of the same

36:19

phrase of condolence. One is, may their memory

36:21

be a blessing and may their memory be

36:24

for a blessing. She writes, the former is

36:26

idiomatic English, but the latter sounds like it

36:28

might be a more direct translation from either

36:30

Hebrew or Yiddish. Would someone please

36:33

make this gentile smarter? I

36:36

think this is a question that a lot of Jews

36:38

have too, so I think we can all get a

36:40

little smarter, but the comments on there are going off.

36:42

Although the best one is by Rebecca Wolf,

36:44

who notes correctly that this is a

36:46

direct translation from the Hebrew, which

36:50

if you translate literally, Rebecca writes

36:52

correctly, would be memory of him

36:54

for blessing, which is exactly how

36:56

it would sound. So you can

36:59

see his memory for blessing, of

37:01

a blessing, is a blessing, just

37:03

a blessing. I think

37:05

we all understand the sentiment. Rebecca

37:07

Wolf continues in a very helpful way.

37:09

She says, the way for is used

37:12

is a little weird for English speakers.

37:14

We think of the preposition for as

37:16

implying use. The cake is for him.

37:19

Causation, I am sorry, for your

37:21

loss, and duration, I'm leaving for

37:23

a week. It doesn't imply causation

37:25

or duration here. The lack of

37:28

an indefinite article is also weird

37:30

for English speakers. We want to

37:32

insert an a in front of

37:34

the noun. Ergo, English speakers are

37:36

very likely to smush the indefinite

37:39

article into the translation and to

37:41

feel the weirdness of for, which

37:43

covers somewhere between used as, because

37:45

of, and lasting until, in meaning.

37:48

This thing about like four kind of reminds me

37:50

of like how weird Jews are about by I'll

37:52

be by you. That's how a lot of Jewish

37:54

people, religious and not phrase like I'll be at

37:56

your house. We'll be by you for Shabbos,

37:59

but not Jews on the by. who maybe never

38:01

take fire. It's an entirely different

38:03

thing. But yeah, so write in, help us,

38:05

help us parse this, give us your theories

38:07

on all this stuff. On orthodoxattalentmag.com,

38:10

write in, Jews, Gentiles alike, tell us whatever

38:12

you want. Really? And we'll read your letter

38:14

on the air. And if email's not your

38:16

style, leave us a message on our listener

38:18

line, 914-570-48. So,

38:37

when I was, I don't know, eight or nine or

38:39

ten, a film came out. That

38:41

film was Wall Street with Michael Douglas. That

38:43

profoundly shaped the way I thought about America

38:45

and money and the world and a lot

38:47

of other things. Because, you know, he was

38:50

very snazzyly dressed and says lines like, you

38:52

have one minute to tell me why I

38:54

have to listen to you. And that was

38:56

kind of really fit the bill for me.

38:59

But around the same time, a real world drama,

39:01

even bigger than the one in the movie ensued.

39:05

Which involved a gentleman named Michael

39:07

Milken, who was referred to in the

39:09

press as the junk bond king. Which

39:11

I thought was a cool thing to

39:14

be, having very little understanding of what

39:16

junk bonds were and how one became

39:18

the king of them. Got really, really

39:20

obsessed with this case. I learned that

39:23

Michael Milken was actually the target of

39:25

an insane out of control. And

39:28

largely kind of totally fabricated

39:30

campaign run by one, Rudolfo

39:33

Giuliani, who built much of his

39:35

political clout on this case. So,

39:38

like Mana from Heaven, our next

39:40

guest materialized with an amazing book

39:42

that honestly reads like a thrill.

39:44

I think I read this thing

39:46

in like two hours. This was

39:48

better than anything I've watched on

39:50

Netflix. He's Richard Sandler. He's Michael

39:52

Milken's lawyer. His book is Witness

39:54

to a Prosecution, The Myth of

39:56

Michael Milken. He tells

39:58

us in this book how this extremely.

40:00

successful financier in the 80s who was

40:03

well known for developing brand new markets

40:05

and also for some incredible philanthropy became

40:07

the target of the SEC and

40:10

what this investigation means not just for

40:12

Milken but for the American Justice System

40:14

at large. Richard Sandler our guest

40:16

was Michael Milken's personal lawyer as well as

40:19

the executive vice president of the Milken Foundation

40:21

and the book is

40:23

amazing. Here are Josh

40:26

and Melina and myself

40:28

trying to pretend like

40:30

we understand how stocks

40:33

and bonds work. Richard

40:36

Sandler welcome to an Orthodox. Great to be

40:38

here. So I want to begin with a

40:40

confession I was a weird child no surprises

40:42

there. I loved nothing more growing

40:44

up in Israel than stories of Wall Street.

40:46

This is when the movie Wall Street came

40:49

out and this kind of financial world was

40:51

very very exciting to nine-year-old boys and

40:54

the story of Michael Milken was one

40:56

that really kind of attracted my attention

40:58

because from the very beginning I

41:00

found myself very hard-pressed to understand

41:03

what exactly happened there it seemed to make

41:05

very little sense to me. When

41:07

I read your book which is one

41:09

of the most and raging entertaining engaging

41:12

books I've read in a very long

41:14

time I understood just how big

41:16

the scandal here truly is. So let's start

41:19

at the very beginning who's Michael Milken and

41:21

what happened to him? So

41:23

Michael Milken today you'd be

41:25

referred to as a disruptor.

41:27

He created an entire way

41:29

of financing companies that nobody

41:31

had ever done before and

41:34

it provided access to capital

41:36

to many entrepreneurs and companies

41:38

that never could access the

41:41

public markets before and

41:44

it was somewhat disrupting to

41:46

establish companies established firms on

41:48

Wall Street that this

41:50

guy could finance people that they

41:53

didn't finance. He created an

41:55

industry within an industry that was

41:57

getting a lot of attention and

41:59

was very successful, it was

42:02

also upsetting a lot of people. We're talking

42:04

about high-yield securities.

42:07

Most people know these as junk bonds, which

42:09

is a bit of a misnomer. Unfortunately, it

42:11

became known as junk bonds. But

42:14

at the time Mike was doing his research

42:16

as a college student, he

42:19

came across a study that looked at

42:21

all these ratings of all these securities

42:23

over time that were rated below investment

42:25

grade. Almost all these

42:27

companies were companies, they were known

42:30

at the time as fallen angels.

42:32

If you did your research and

42:34

you had a portfolio of

42:36

these below investment grade bonds,

42:39

enough of them would actually in fact

42:41

pay their interest and their principle, that

42:43

would more than compensate you for the

42:45

risk that you took on these bonds.

42:48

He became very interested in

42:50

this market. When he left

42:52

Wharton, he went to work for

42:54

a company at that time called Drexel

42:56

Firestone. At that time, you are friends

42:58

with his brother following him to college.

43:00

Yes. I knew Mike growing up and

43:03

his brother. His brother and I are

43:05

the same age. We're very dear friends,

43:07

my closest friend. I had known him

43:09

during this period of time. Two

43:12

things happened in the business. Number

43:14

one, he went out and was

43:16

given certain amount of capital to

43:18

invest by Drexel in these high-yield

43:20

securities, which he understood probably better

43:22

than anybody. Number two,

43:25

he went out and started meeting

43:27

with potential investors, pension

43:30

funds, insurance companies, large

43:32

investors about the

43:34

attractiveness of investing in

43:36

high-yield securities. His

43:39

theories because of the work he did

43:41

turned out to be true, and people

43:43

that invested, including the Drexel firm itself,

43:46

made outstanding returns at investing

43:48

in these securities. That

43:50

led to the idea, maybe

43:53

we can do original new

43:55

issues for companies that are

43:57

not as well known. get

44:00

investment grade ratings, but we believe

44:02

are good companies and good investments

44:04

to loan money to the gaming

44:06

industry in Las Vegas. Ted

44:09

Turner got financing for his idea of

44:11

a 24-hour news company.

44:14

He wanted to buy the MGM company.

44:17

Nobody would have financed him traditionally,

44:19

but in doing the research, meeting

44:22

him, Mike and his team

44:24

came to the conclusion that they were worth

44:26

financing turned out to be correct. The

44:28

cellular industry, even in the home

44:31

building industry, there's so many examples

44:33

of these companies that he was

44:35

able to finance. Now,

44:37

he's created a market. He's getting all kinds of

44:40

attention on Wall Street. Anytime you

44:42

have disruption, the people that

44:44

are being disrupted or disintermediated are

44:47

not always that happy. Then

44:49

you got to the next phase. You

44:52

had entrepreneurs who said, this

44:54

existing company is undervalued. We

44:57

think we can make more money than

44:59

we possibly try to take over those

45:01

companies. They became known as

45:03

corporate readers and their takeovers if

45:05

they were not welcome, were known

45:08

as hostile takeovers. That created another

45:10

disruption in the market. That

45:13

is the state of the world when

45:15

the government investigation that I

45:17

go to in great detail in the

45:19

book started. You point down

45:21

the book that millions of jobs were

45:23

created by these companies that might not

45:26

otherwise have been capitalized. Well, actually during

45:28

that period of time, Fortune 500 companies,

45:31

which were basically the companies that

45:33

could get investment grade ratings, had

45:35

actually lost jobs over

45:37

a decade. The high yield

45:39

companies had created all the new jobs

45:41

that had been created during this

45:44

period of time. Yet here's

45:46

the establishment not only coining

45:48

these terms, junk bonds, corporate

45:50

readers, hostile takeovers to create

45:53

a narrative, but also using all

45:55

the considerable muscle of

45:57

government to try and quiet.

46:00

So take us

46:02

to one Friday afternoon as you are

46:04

trying to rush home to your kid's

46:06

birthday party, hoping to make it a

46:08

short day, and then you get

46:11

some unwelcome news. Friday, November 14,

46:14

1986, sitting in the office at

46:17

that time, I had left the general practice a lot,

46:19

and I went to work with Mike

46:21

and his brother and the people at Drexel. And

46:24

I'm sitting in my office, and right after the

46:26

market closed, I came across a tape that

46:28

really the most successful and revered

46:30

arbitrage or risk arbitrage at the

46:32

time, Mr. Ivan Bolsky, was

46:35

pleading guilty to a felony, was

46:37

involved in insider trading, was paying

46:39

a large fine to the SEC,

46:41

and was making this deal with the

46:43

government. Almost simultaneously,

46:45

I get a call that

46:48

there are federal marshals downstairs

46:51

serving subpoenas on the

46:53

High Yalbahn Department, on Michael Milken, on

46:55

Lowell Milken, on a few other people

46:57

in the building. And we

47:00

get a call, the same thing is happening in New

47:02

York, at Drexel's office, and

47:05

look at the subpoenas. There are SEC

47:07

subpoenas, and there are grand jury subpoenas

47:10

from the Southern District of New York,

47:12

talking about an investigation into violation

47:14

of something called the RICO statute,

47:16

which I'd never even heard of.

47:19

And our life was changed forever

47:22

at that moment. Basically,

47:24

or generally speaking, what was the government alleging? Well,

47:27

I believe initially the government was alleging

47:29

insider trading. It was a

47:31

tough, quite frankly, next 10 years,

47:33

because what I learned is the

47:36

unbelievable power that the government

47:38

has in a criminal investigation.

47:41

Plus, the prosecutors, and what

47:43

happened in our case, you're not supposed

47:45

to do this, okay? It's not appropriate,

47:48

but they can start leaking information to

47:50

the media. So now the trial

47:52

is taking place in the media, in

47:54

the court of public opinion, and

47:56

you have no way to defend yourself. You get

47:58

further and further behind. as

48:01

the process goes on. And now

48:03

America is introduced to this

48:06

nefarious figure, the junk bond

48:08

king, Michael Milken, who

48:10

did all kinds of nefarious things

48:12

to enrich himself. That is largely

48:15

the portrayal out there as the investigation

48:17

is going on. Exactly, basically.

48:19

Because Mike himself was

48:21

a very media-shy individual. He didn't believe it

48:23

was in his interest or his family's interest

48:25

to get a lot of publicity. And

48:28

as they became more and more established

48:30

on Wall Street at Drexel, and they

48:32

started making more and more money and

48:34

had more and more success, he drew

48:36

a lot of attention. He

48:39

chose not to bring attention to

48:41

himself, not to talk to

48:43

the media, not to give into interviews.

48:46

There's a chapter in the book called Blank Canvas.

48:49

Because as somebody said to me, one

48:51

of the problems Mike had in this case,

48:53

because it came so ugly, was

48:55

when it started, he was a blank

48:58

canvas, and the government and the media

49:00

were able to paint the caricature of

49:02

who he was. So the

49:04

reason I actually just really wrote the book,

49:07

there was like two or three reasons. One

49:09

is there's been so much misinformation about

49:12

who Michael Milken is, was, and was

49:15

doing and what happened in

49:17

the case. And it was time that

49:19

history showed what really happened. But

49:21

number two was to show people

49:23

the power of the prosecutor, which

49:25

I had no idea of when

49:27

this started. When this started, I

49:29

would believe if I read someone's under

49:31

a criminal investigation by the US Attorney,

49:34

they must have done something. The US

49:36

Attorney's job is to do the right

49:38

thing. And if they're going after somebody,

49:40

they must really believe something terrible happened.

49:43

I quickly learned of the power

49:45

of the prosecutor and how that

49:47

power, especially in high profile cases,

49:50

can be used in a way which

49:52

does not see necessarily the truth, but

49:54

is trying to see victory. Because

49:57

if you win a case, that promotes your life.

50:00

career. It doesn't mean the

50:02

prosecutor is necessarily dishonest. It

50:05

just means they're motivated to win the

50:07

case because that's how they were trained.

50:09

In our case, the prosecutor,

50:11

the US Attorney for the Southern

50:13

District of New York, was one

50:16

Rudolf Giuliani who had political

50:18

ambitions. Everybody at the time knew

50:20

he had political ambitions. So

50:22

here we were with an ambitious

50:24

prosecutor who I do not believe

50:26

to this day had an idea what a

50:29

buck, the difference between the stock and a

50:31

bond, are certainly not the difference between a

50:33

high-yield security and a high-grade security at the

50:35

time found that this case

50:37

was getting headlines and

50:39

it was in his interest, in his

50:41

office interest, to be successful. So

50:44

give us the sort of TLDR version

50:46

of a very, very, very

50:48

long complicated case. How did

50:51

it go down? So as the case

50:53

went on, it was clear. Look at it.

50:55

I knew Mike. I'd been involved with him.

50:57

I worked with the lawyers. It

50:59

was clear Mike was not involved in insider

51:01

trading. But that's not what

51:04

the government was really out to

51:06

accept. They were looking at the entire

51:08

business because they were trying to prove

51:11

something. And then I saw

51:13

another tool that the prosecutor

51:15

has, which is immunizing

51:17

witnesses. You can call on

51:19

a witness and say, I think something illegal

51:22

was going on in this transaction. If you

51:24

can help me, I can give you immunity,

51:26

which means you get immunity that I can't

51:28

prosecute you. You're home free, but you're going

51:30

to have to help me. But I want

51:32

you to tell the truth. And if you

51:34

don't think you can help me, then I

51:37

find out later you can, that I'm going

51:39

to indict you with Michael Milken. And

51:42

I'm going to indict you under

51:44

RICO, the racketeering statute. So instead

51:46

of, let's say, a count of

51:49

securities fraud that carries a three to

51:51

five year sentence, I'm going to hit

51:53

you with a count of a RICO,

51:55

which carried a 20 year sentence. So

51:57

you have this process going on

51:59

with the government. has these tools to

52:02

number one, get information and number two,

52:04

to pressure individuals. And

52:06

you're still sitting here and you can't do anything.

52:08

If I go to that same person and say,

52:10

I believe that this happened

52:12

this way, it'd be helpful

52:15

if you remember the same way

52:17

I remember it. And maybe you

52:19

do, maybe you don't, but if you do, it certainly would

52:21

help me. And

52:23

if you don't remember it that way, and if you

52:25

hurt me, I'm going to find a way to hurt

52:27

you, I'm going to be indicted for

52:29

obstruction of justice. Okay. It's,

52:31

you know, so it's not a level playing field. And

52:34

so eventually the government had its way. It

52:36

had its way. So we

52:38

went through about three years

52:41

of intensive investigation,

52:43

witnesses coming in, people

52:46

getting immunity, becoming government

52:48

witnesses, mics being vilified

52:50

in the press almost

52:52

every single day. The

52:54

pressure is building the risks to him

52:57

and his family are tremendous. They

52:59

indict his brother who had nothing to

53:01

do with these transactions. We

53:04

believe to bring pressure on Mike

53:07

and he's sitting here with the risk of

53:09

going to trial. Whether you're, you

53:11

think you're innocent or not, doesn't mean you're not

53:13

going to lose the trial. And

53:15

Mike made a tremendous amount of money

53:18

in 1986. Okay. Hundreds

53:21

of millions of dollars that Edward Williams

53:23

said to me, the biggest concern he had about

53:25

the case was not anything that Mike did because

53:27

he believed in Mike Bacon. But

53:30

how is he going to convince a jury that someone made

53:32

that much money and didn't do something

53:34

wrong? So he has all these pressures on him.

53:37

And then Drexel, the firm that he worked with,

53:40

they decided to make a deal with the government

53:42

and to fire him. And he

53:44

finally was put in a position where he said,

53:46

is there any way that I can cut my

53:48

losses? Is there any way I can

53:50

protect my family? Is there any way I can

53:52

eliminate the risk? And we worked

53:54

out a plea deal with the government in

53:57

which he pled to things that were not

53:59

in the original. indictment, all

54:01

of which had never been subject of criminal

54:03

indictments before. But he was

54:05

able to find things, they accepted it.

54:08

And he pled guilty to those situations. And

54:11

he received the prison sentence much different than

54:13

any of us thought was possible. I'd

54:16

go through in the book what he did

54:18

there and how he went through it,

54:20

what the process was, what our work

54:22

was, trying to get the sentence reduced,

54:24

which we successfully did and

54:27

everything that's happened since. How

54:29

do you live in the aftermath of this? As you said

54:32

before, you had the reasonable expectation that

54:34

if the government made some allegation,

54:36

it had some basis of truth, which

54:39

strikes me as kind of

54:41

an essential belief. If you are to live

54:43

in a society, in a country to, you

54:45

know, have basic, reasonable respect

54:48

and trust in its institutions,

54:51

how does he and how do you go

54:53

on knowing that this was just a huge

54:55

circus that brought the whole

54:57

weight of the system against

54:59

an innocent man to

55:01

disastrous consequences? It

55:03

was very difficult. My son was six years old

55:06

the day it started. By the

55:08

time Mike pled and was sentenced, he

55:10

was 10 years old. By the

55:13

time Mike got out, he was

55:15

12 years old. All

55:17

right. By the time we went through

55:20

community service, the SEC came after him

55:22

again unsuccessfully, because it was a ridiculous

55:24

process at that point in time. He

55:27

got off a probation. My

55:29

son was 18 years old and

55:32

Mike has his children that are similar ages. This

55:34

whole time when our kids are growing up,

55:37

we are distracted by this

55:39

intensive process in

55:41

which the consequences and risks are so

55:44

great. And it was tough,

55:46

but you know, you get up every day and

55:48

you do what you have to do. Fortunately,

55:51

we have solid families. We

55:54

both have incredible wives. We

55:56

have great relationships with our children. We

55:59

never forgot. who we were, and our

56:01

friends supported us. And

56:04

it allowed us to get through that. And when I say us,

56:07

you know, it's not even a fair comment, because

56:09

what I went through, as difficult as it might

56:11

have been for me, is a fraction of what

56:13

Mike had to go through. It's a very tough

56:15

process. And one of the things I'm trying to

56:17

point out by writing the book is

56:20

that the way the system is,

56:22

if you train young prosecutors that

56:25

their job is to win the case rather

56:27

than see justice as done, then

56:30

you create a situation where you have

56:32

these bright young lawyers who

56:34

are trying to make a career with

56:36

themselves. They do not have life experiences

56:38

to really understand what happens

56:41

if they're wrong. There's no

56:43

downside to them if they're wrong. But,

56:45

you know, they're not bad people. They're not

56:47

dishonest people. They're trained that their job is

56:50

to win, and they have these tools that

56:52

allow them to try to do that. The

56:54

job of the prosecutor is to see that justice is

56:56

done. But the training is

56:59

not that. The training is you

57:01

represent the government and you go get a

57:03

conviction. And that's the problem with

57:06

the system. And that's why

57:08

everybody out there, what happened

57:10

to Mike, can happen to them. Mike's

57:13

not the first person it happened to. He's

57:15

not the last person it happened to. It might

57:17

have happened to him in an unusual way

57:19

because of the circumstances. But that

57:22

is one of the reasons I wrote the

57:24

book. So people understand the system. And then,

57:26

of course, the third message I think from

57:28

the book is, look what Mike

57:30

Milken has done with his life since. He

57:33

comes out, he has his unbelievable

57:35

ability to get up, you kick

57:37

him down, he gets up, he dust himself

57:39

off, and he goes about trying to be

57:41

productive and making a difference in the world.

57:44

But as one thing happened

57:46

to another, he gets out of prison and

57:48

he gets diagnosed with prostate cancer. And he's

57:51

told that he has 12 to 15 months

57:53

to live. Thank God he

57:55

went into remission. He was fortunate. He

57:57

devoted so much energy over the years. He's

58:00

probably saved millions of men's lives through

58:03

research of prostate cancer and other

58:05

cancers because he is

58:07

as productive today as he's ever been

58:10

because he did not let this, which

58:12

is an amazing quality, he did

58:14

not let this set him back so he

58:16

became bitter and felt

58:19

sorry for himself and sought

58:21

revenge or whatever. He basically continued

58:23

to be productive as he is

58:25

to this day. A moment

58:27

ago you said something, we never forgot who we

58:29

were. I gotta tell you, reading

58:31

this book, I had a very

58:33

strong sense of,

58:36

well of course these guys are

58:38

being prosecuted. These are Jews.

58:40

These are Jews who came out of

58:43

nowhere, upset a very big country club

58:45

establishment, and now must pay their price

58:47

for being the outsiders who dared win. Is

58:49

there something to that? I believe there

58:52

is. I didn't really go into that in

58:54

the book a lot because I felt because

58:56

of things that I've done in the Jewish

58:58

community myself because some of

59:00

the people that had been convicted

59:02

at the time during the insider

59:04

trading, like Dennis Levine, I'm

59:06

mostly, were also Jewish. I just, I

59:08

didn't think the point I were

59:10

going to make I thought would be distracted

59:12

from, but there's no question when

59:14

you had this young upstart from California

59:17

who happened to be Jewish doing what

59:19

he was doing on Wall Street and

59:22

several of his clients were also Jewish,

59:25

it did not make the establishment

59:27

happy. So it did not help

59:29

his situation. So

59:32

this is how the system works and

59:34

I am

59:36

very fortunate that I

59:38

have a publisher that published the book and

59:41

people have read the book and have

59:43

had a positive reaction to it because

59:46

it's not my attempt to

59:49

clean up anything. It's not my attempt

59:51

to get back at anyone. It's

59:53

my attempt to set the record straight as

59:55

to what really happened and what could

59:57

happen today. It's a fascinating and

1:00:00

convincing read and you do a very

1:00:02

good job of making sometimes complex ideas

1:00:05

understandable. Richard Sandler, thank

1:00:07

you so much for being our guest. Thank you

1:00:09

very much. I appreciate your take of the time.

1:00:20

Time for some mazel tubs. Leo, want to kick

1:00:22

us off? Yes. To Jalen

1:00:25

Brunson, the Nick superstar, married

1:00:27

to a Jewish woman, posts

1:00:29

his katuba on Instagram and

1:00:31

this week selected as an

1:00:33

NBA All-Star for the first

1:00:35

time, which made me so,

1:00:37

so, so happy until they cut to

1:00:39

his dad, who's like three years younger

1:00:41

than me, at which point I was

1:00:43

like, no, I'm no longer happy. I'm just I'm

1:00:46

just a middle-aged man on the couch

1:00:48

watching basketball. But Jalen Brunson, New York Knicks, awesome.

1:00:51

The katuba is beautiful, by the way. Beautiful. It's there

1:00:53

on the internet. Melina, what do you got? Give us

1:00:55

some give us some shout outs. I'm

1:00:58

inclined to reach across the aisle,

1:01:00

political aisle and chef Ben Shapiro

1:01:02

for his chart topping rap. If

1:01:04

there's one thing that can bring

1:01:06

us all together is it'll advise rap.

1:01:08

It'll advise musical for it. Oh, I

1:01:10

love that. It was great. One

1:01:12

of the rapper raps about his yarmulke. That's very

1:01:14

hard to rhyme. Yarmulke. I must say when I

1:01:16

finally watched it, he did a better job, Ben

1:01:18

Shapiro, than I anticipated. Hats off or hats on.

1:01:21

Which means that the Josh and Melina hip hop video is

1:01:23

not far behind. It's right around the corner. It's literally right

1:01:26

around the corner that you're parked in right now. I'm also

1:01:28

coming. I'll be by you soon. I

1:01:31

have a shout out

1:01:33

from the Grammys, actually. Montana Tucker, the

1:01:36

social media influencer and very proud and

1:01:38

outspoken Jew, wore an amazing outfit

1:01:40

to the Grammys and across the whole front with a

1:01:42

big yellow ribbon that said, bring them home. So

1:01:45

mazel tov to you, Montana Tucker, for keeping

1:01:47

that message front and center at the Grammys.

1:01:52

All right. That's it for us today. On

1:01:54

Orthodox as a Production of Tablets Studios, the

1:01:56

show is hosted by me, Stephanie Bannick, Lila

1:01:58

Leibovitz and Joshua Melina. from a parking lot near you.

1:02:01

We're produced and edited by Josh Cross, Robert

1:02:03

Scaramuccia, Quinn Waller, and Ellie Blyer, and our

1:02:05

team includes Tanya Singer, Courtney Hazel, and Daron

1:02:07

Ruskay, with help from Sam Hacker and Jordana

1:02:09

LaRosa. Our episode art is by Esther Werdiger,

1:02:11

our logo is by Jenny Rosbuck, our theme

1:02:13

music is by Gollum, not the one that

1:02:15

hacks your personal information, from 23andMe, the amazing

1:02:18

Klezmer funk band, and our news and mailbox

1:02:20

theme are by Steve Barton. We love to

1:02:22

hear from you. Email us at unorthodoxishabomag.com or

1:02:24

leave a message on our listener line, 914-570-4869.

1:02:28

That's it for this week. Shalom, friends.

1:02:47

All right, we done, we out.