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Welcome to Unpacked Podcasts

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with your host leadership consultant

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, ron Harvey of Global Core Strategies

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and Consulting . Ron's delighted to

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have you join us as he unpacks and

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shares his leadership experience , designed

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to help you in your leadership

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journey . Ron believes that leadership

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is the fundamental driver towards making

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a difference . So now to find

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out more of what it means to unpack

0:25

leadership , here's your host , ron

0:27

Harvey .

0:28

Good morning . This is Ron Harvey , the

0:30

vice president and the chief operating officer of

0:32

Global Core Strategies and Consulting leadership

0:34

firm based out of Columbia , south Carolina , and

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all of our workers around people and creating a

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winning culture that people want to be a part of . Our

0:41

role in our society , and our purpose is really

0:43

to develop and help leaders develop their skill

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sets to really take care of the people that they're responsible

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for and responsible to . Everything

0:50

we do is around leadership , so it's helping leaders be

0:52

more equipped , better prepared , to

0:55

be able to take care of the people that are responsible and responsible

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to . But every Monday we release a

0:59

different episode on what we call unpack

1:01

with Ron Harvey . This is where we spend time

1:03

on our podcast , talking to the leaders from

1:06

around the globe and allowing you to

1:08

come behind the curtain and I ask

1:10

real questions , real time . None of our

1:12

guests ever have the questions in advance and

1:14

they've said they agree to it and they're excited

1:16

and they're probably nervous too , but all of them

1:18

have agreed that they'll come on and they'll say , hey

1:20

, let's have the real conversation . And so I

1:22

don't know what question I'm going to ask my guests . They don't know

1:25

a question . I don't even know how they're going to respond to the

1:27

question . What we promise you is we'll talk about

1:29

leadership , will be really transparent and

1:31

hopefully we give you something that helps you be

1:33

a more effective leader to take care of people that

1:36

you're responsible and responsible for

1:38

and responsible to . So , with that

1:40

being said , I'm excited to have my guest today with

1:42

us , john Narrow , who's basically

1:44

here to supporters out of the Virginia area

1:47

, washington DC . If you will , I'm excited

1:49

to have you on the show , john . Thank you for

1:51

saying yes , thank you for being with us . What

1:54

would you like for our guests to know about you ? So

1:56

, welcome to the show and thank you for joining .

1:58

Ron , thank you for having me here . I am absolutely

2:01

looking forward to our conversation

2:03

today . What I want you and

2:06

your listeners to know about me is

2:08

that , after a 25 year

2:10

career in education , where

2:12

I started out as a middle school mathematics

2:15

teacher and advanced through various administrative

2:17

and director type roles , I

2:20

now currently work with mid-career professionals

2:22

who feel stuck , undervalued and underutilized

2:25

and I help them figure out whatever

2:27

is next for them and their careers

2:30

as an executive and career transition

2:32

coach . So when I'm not working

2:34

, one of the things I love to do is

2:36

bowl . I still actively

2:38

compete on the professional bowling

2:41

regional tour . I won a title

2:43

on the regional tour back in 2010

2:45

. I have four second place finishes

2:47

, so I am still looking for title number

2:49

two , and I am a

2:52

huge and I mean huge

2:54

game show fanatic Wow

2:56

. So what are your favorite game shows ? I

2:58

like any kind of word game , so

3:01

obviously , right now , wheel of Fortune . That's

3:03

just a classic . I absolutely

3:06

loved password Really

3:08

. And so I go back to the days of Alan

3:10

Ludden as the host of password

3:13

. It was just one of those great games you could sit

3:15

and watch and play along with and everything

3:17

, password pyramid they're all

3:19

just classic games to play Well

3:21

, thank you .

3:22

Have you ever been on a game show ? Is that on your

3:24

bucket list ?

3:25

So I have . Interestingly enough , I was

3:27

on the game show Chain Reaction

3:29

with two of my friends . It was

3:32

on the game show network . They still run it

3:34

. I want to say it was back from 2004

3:36

, 2005 . We didn't

3:38

win . But one of the best

3:40

parts about that show was

3:43

I was remembered and

3:46

the production company was

3:48

launching a new pilot

3:50

for a new game

3:52

show . They were pitching with this guy , Ken

3:55

Jennings , who had just finished his epic

3:57

75 game run on Jeopardy , and

4:00

the pilot was called Ken Jennings versus

4:02

the rest of the world and I

4:04

was one of the five contestants

4:06

in the world for this pilot

4:08

. We played a head to head trivia battle

4:10

against Ken . We ended up tying . The

4:13

show Never went into production but

4:15

I did get to meet him and play against him and shake

4:17

his hand and it's really amazing to see

4:19

where he is now .

4:21

Wow , there's so much happening behind that camera

4:23

. You get to see it when

4:25

it's happening in real time , but what shows up on camera is

4:27

amazing when you watch shows and what happens

4:29

behind the camera , and so thank you for

4:32

coming on . Thank you for sharing who you are

4:34

and now you're , you know . Thank you for your time in education

4:36

, because it makes a big difference for all of our young people

4:38

. Educators are undervalued

4:40

, underappreciated in our society , and

4:43

you know so . Thank you for all the work in the many years you

4:45

put in at all levels there . Now

4:47

you're doing executive coaching and you're helping leaders . You know

4:49

, get under stuck , which is also very , very necessary

4:51

. When you think of leadership , oftentimes

4:53

there are people that are technically sharp , good

4:56

at what they know the skill set , but

4:58

leadership is a different thing , and

5:01

you think about the work that we're doing as

5:03

leaders . What drove you to decide to help

5:05

leaders ? What made you go into the field

5:07

of now ? Where did you see a need or what was the calling

5:09

on your purpose ? What made you decide you wanted to go into the industry

5:12

that you're doing now , coaching and helping people that

5:14

are stuck in leadership ?

5:16

The last job I held before I

5:18

started my coaching practice full time

5:20

. I was working as a training

5:22

and staffing director for an educational

5:24

nonprofit , and they

5:26

were seeing tremendous growth , making

5:29

a huge impact in an area

5:31

of what we call summative assessment

5:33

. So this was a company who was writing

5:35

large scale end of year assessments

5:37

for students across the country . Our

5:39

clients were essentially state

5:41

departments of education , and

5:44

while I was working within content

5:47

, my role had shifted to

5:49

supporting a team of

5:51

11 team leaders

5:53

who were absolutely

5:55

trying to find this balance between

5:57

getting their work done and taking

5:59

care of their team . And it was

6:01

one of those things in that job , ron

6:03

, where I saw that we

6:05

sometimes elevate people into

6:08

leadership roles because they're technically

6:10

exceptional at what they do , but

6:12

they're not necessarily people

6:15

exceptional in terms of how

6:17

they manage , and so a lot

6:19

of my work was really around building

6:22

capacity , giving them tools

6:24

to help them essentially fill up

6:26

their toolkit , if you will , for everything

6:29

from how do you run a successful

6:31

check-in meeting , how do you handle

6:33

performance conversations , how

6:36

do you address difficult conversations

6:38

, give and receive feedback that

6:40

ultimately were to help

6:43

them be better leaders that they could

6:45

show up for their team members

6:47

. That ultimately impacted the

6:49

organization .

6:51

Wow , john , you gave a lot to unpack as

6:53

you talk about I totally agree with

6:55

. Oftentimes people are getting promoted based on their really

6:58

sharp in their skill set . But

7:01

you mentioned earlier how do you help leaders

7:03

get their job done and take care of people

7:05

. What are some of the things that you will share

7:07

with our audience ? What are the top three things that you're

7:09

noticing that people can walk away with

7:12

and implement tomorrow without having

7:14

to have a coach right now ? It's nice to have a coach . I

7:16

think everybody should have one . I don't like it . My

7:18

job done as a leader and also take care of my

7:20

people , because that's important .

7:23

It's almost like having two full-time jobs

7:25

in that respect , ron , right . So

7:27

I appreciate that question so much . So

7:30

those three things that I would offer everybody

7:32

listening is the first thing is

7:34

make sure you understand

7:37

where your priorities are

7:39

and recognize that priorities

7:41

can shift . There's going to be

7:43

times where , in that kind of hybrid

7:46

role , you're getting your own work done and you're

7:48

meeting deadlines , but you will

7:50

have team members ping you

7:52

, call you , show up at your office

7:54

door . Remember those days , those days were great yes

7:56

. That

8:00

is , show up in the box . They show up in the box

8:02

. Do you have five minutes ? No , but I'll give you

8:04

10 anyway . You have to kind of balance

8:06

those things out and understand that those

8:09

priorities can shift . But

8:11

the second thing that I would offer them is

8:13

, if you are managing people

8:16

and you have accepted the

8:18

responsibility and the tremendous

8:21

honor of being in that role

8:23

, you have to be there for them

8:25

. It doesn't mean you can't set boundaries

8:28

or ground rules in terms of what those interactions

8:30

look like . But one of my biggest

8:33

pet peeves and one of the things especially

8:35

with the leaders I work with if

8:37

you are scheduling regular check-in

8:39

meetings with your team members , honor

8:42

that time . You need to show

8:44

up for those meetings and if , for whatever reason

8:46

, you need to cancel that

8:48

meeting , you need to reschedule

8:51

that meeting and have another date on

8:53

the calendar within 24 hours . The

8:56

meeting doesn't have to be within 24 hours

8:58

, but you never want your team member

9:00

to feel like they're unimportant , they're

9:02

neglected , they're not being taken

9:04

care of , and that will cause them

9:07

to lose trust in you . Wow

9:09

, right , yeah , john .

9:12

So , John , as you're walking through this , hopefully everyone's really

9:14

taking notes , Hopefully you pulled out something and I said

9:16

, oh my gosh , he's dropping some really great information

9:19

for us . So not rescheduling

9:21

a meeting can lead to a lot

9:23

of things . So if you have to reschedule , you say

9:25

first , make sure you reschedule it within 24

9:28

hours . It doesn't have to take place in 24 hours

9:30

, but not rescheduling it

9:32

can really have people think

9:34

a lot of things . That's not healthy and

9:37

the number one thing I heard is it makes

9:39

people feel like they can't trust you . Why

9:41

is that important ? Why is it important for us as a leader

9:43

that I trust you ? If you're my leader

9:45

, you're my supervisor , you're my personal whatever the

9:47

title is for in your organization , if

9:50

you're that person , John , why is it important that I have

9:52

to trust you ?

9:54

Trust is everything and I think it's important

9:56

for us to differentiate that just because

9:58

I trust somebody doesn't mean I have to like

10:00

them . So

10:03

if I'm reporting to somebody , trusting

10:07

them to know that they

10:09

are going to be available

10:11

when I have a question , they're going

10:13

to support me when needed . They're

10:16

going to be that critical

10:18

friend or advisor , depending

10:21

on the situation . It's

10:23

one of those things where and I always

10:25

go back to a phenomenal sports

10:28

psychologist His name is Dr Dean

10:30

Hinnitz when he worked with

10:32

individual athletes in professional

10:35

sports Dean says that

10:37

trust is repeated behavior

10:40

over time . So we think

10:42

about that athlete . Let's say that standing at the free

10:44

throw line and

10:46

there's 10 seconds left in the

10:48

game and the game is tied , they

10:50

trust in their ability . Of

10:52

all the hours that they have spent training

10:55

to execute their process

10:57

, to make the best shot as possible , they

11:00

show up at that foul line to trust

11:02

in their abilities . Well

11:04

, the same thing is true in our working

11:06

relationships and , it goes

11:08

without saying , in our personal relationships

11:10

as well . If I email

11:13

you as my leader and you

11:15

don't respond to my email , you're telling

11:17

me my email is not important . If

11:20

I see you in the hallway and

11:22

I say to you , do you have a couple minutes

11:24

and you say to me no , I'm

11:26

really busy , and you never

11:28

offer to follow up . I'm not important

11:31

. When trust breaks

11:33

down , lots of

11:35

things happen , everything from

11:37

the quality of somebody's work

11:39

to their

11:42

overall morale in

11:44

the workplace , and especially

11:46

for somebody that we tag as

11:48

a high performer or a high potential

11:51

, who has been deemed

11:53

by the organization as having exemplary

11:56

skills and they're elevated into a new role

11:58

. There is a time

12:00

for them when work gets difficult

12:03

If they don't have the

12:05

supports in place from a

12:07

mentor , a sponsor , a leader

12:10

whom they trust , and they

12:12

don't feel comfortable going and saying

12:14

, hey , I'm really struggling with this or I need some help

12:16

on that . All of a sudden , they're

12:18

getting frustrated . They are now

12:20

starting to think that it is

12:22

easier for them to leave that organization

12:25

than to stay . When

12:27

they leave , they take all of their

12:29

organizational and institutional knowledge

12:31

, plus the tens of thousands of dollars

12:34

the company has invested in training and

12:36

developing them . They are now somebody

12:38

else's asset and

12:40

you are now left filling a void

12:43

on your org chart , thank you . That

12:45

is because of your lack of

12:47

leadership and guidance that created that

12:49

situation , wow .

12:51

John , I mean a lot of great insight

12:53

in what trust was . I really appreciate the

12:55

way you responded to the question . I wanna shift

12:57

the question a little bit for us . So I'm that

12:59

leader , John , that made a mistake

13:02

with someone that reports to me and trust is broken

13:04

. How do I reestablish ? I

13:06

want to , but I don't know how

13:09

to , because you will make mistakes

13:11

and it can put trust and jeopardy

13:13

at times . How do you help leaders rebuild

13:16

trust when it's broken ?

13:18

Ron Brene Brown says it so

13:20

well , which is sometimes we

13:23

just have to let things be messy .

13:26

We are not perfect , right .

13:27

And so we're gonna mess up . Things

13:29

are gonna happen , and so the first

13:32

thing that I would offer anybody in that situation

13:35

is to own it . Own

13:37

where you are , acknowledge

13:39

, say , hey , I realize I

13:41

have dropped the ball on our last two or three check-in

13:44

meetings . That probably didn't make you feel

13:46

good . I certainly didn't . It wasn't my

13:48

intention . So , moving forward

13:50

, let's set some ground rules for

13:53

what this is going to look like

13:55

. When we set ground rules

13:58

or we make agreements or we have norms

14:00

. One of the best products of that

14:02

, ron , is that we no longer have

14:04

to walk on eggshells because

14:07

we know how to play . So

14:09

in reestablishing that trust

14:11

, you now have set up an

14:13

avenue for us to have some

14:15

accountability . We have to take it

14:17

a step further , and

14:19

that is if you don't

14:22

follow up on the accountability , how do

14:24

I hold you accountable ? And vice versa

14:26

. And for a lot of people , when we

14:28

hear the term managing up , this

14:30

can be pretty challenging and be like I don't

14:32

know if I can do that . If the leader

14:35

sets the expectation or the ground

14:37

rule to say , hey , if

14:40

I don't reschedule our check-in meeting within 24

14:42

hours , I want you to email me

14:44

, and when I see that email

14:46

. I'm gonna know I messed up and I'm

14:48

gonna respond and I'm gonna make sure we

14:51

get that check-in meeting scheduled as soon as possible

14:53

. It's small steps

14:55

to rebuild that trust and

14:58

acknowledging that it's going to

15:00

take a lot of time in order

15:02

to really gain that person's trust back

15:04

.

15:05

Absolutely so . It's gonna get messy . If you're listening

15:08

, own , it put parameters

15:10

and things in place where people have access to help

15:12

you get better at what you're getting better at . And you're

15:14

not gonna be perfect . You're human . So I love that

15:16

you're sharing that information of hey

15:18

. Here's trust is important . Here's how you rebuild

15:20

it . John , you also mentioned earlier

15:23

in the conversation that I would love for you to elaborate

15:25

for the audience is you spoke

15:27

about check-ins . Not every

15:29

leader wants to do check-ins

15:32

on a frequent basis . Not

15:34

every leader enjoys doing them because it feels

15:36

like work and it's more stuff they gotta

15:38

do and they are busy and people are dropping

15:40

in . Why is it important ? If it is

15:43

based on your conversation sounds like it really is

15:45

important . If that's the case , why is it

15:47

important and what happens if we don't do

15:49

it ?

15:50

Oh well , here's one

15:52

tip right off the bat , Ron , that can

15:54

make a check-in meeting absolutely

15:57

easier for the

15:59

supervisor . If you will and

16:02

that is when

16:04

you go to set the

16:06

check-in meeting you

16:08

establish a protocol that 24

16:10

hours before the check-in

16:12

meeting , your team member is

16:15

gonna send you an email that's gonna say here

16:17

are the things I wanna discuss . The

16:20

leader does not have to plan

16:23

the entire check-in meeting because

16:26

it's about the opportunity for them to check in with

16:29

their team member or direct report and

16:31

help them with whatever is going on Now

16:34

. It goes without saying if the leader has

16:37

an important issue or topic they wanna bring up , they can

16:39

respond to that email and say I'm

16:42

gonna add this to our agenda and our talking points

16:44

. But part

16:46

of the stress that I see for a lot of leaders is

16:49

that they feel like they have to have everything situated and

16:51

planned out for the check-in meeting . Gotta flip the

16:53

script . Put that responsibility on

16:55

your team member . They're the

16:57

ones that are coming with questions or support that

16:59

they need , so let them come to the

17:02

table with things that they wanna talk about

17:04

. The

17:07

other thing is we talk about frequency

17:09

. There are a

17:11

lot of big heart-centered leaders out there that

17:13

would love to meet with their team every single week and

17:16

it's just not gonna happen . That's true

17:18

, yes , right . So you know in your career and

17:20

I know in mine and in our businesses and everything , we

17:23

always say that consistency is key . So

17:26

find a timeframe that's gonna work

17:28

for you and your team . And if

17:30

you find that same meeting every other week is

17:33

getting to be too much , maybe it's

17:35

every third or every fourth week but

17:38

honor that consistent time . The

17:41

other benefit of having consistent

17:43

check-in meetings is always

17:45

around feedback . Yes , so

17:48

one of my favorite books is by Sherry Harley . It's

17:51

called how to Say Anything to Anyone . She

17:54

has a phenomenal eight-step

17:56

feedback protocol in her book . I

17:59

have used it . It works incredibly well . But

18:03

the reason I bring this up is that in Sherry's book she

18:06

says feedback is done for two reasons . It's

18:09

either to maintain behavior or

18:12

shift behavior and if it's done for any of those other

18:14

reasons , check your agenda at the door . If

18:18

I'm regularly meeting with my team and I'm delivering feedback

18:20

and

18:22

I'm offering guidance and support , the benefit of those check-in

18:25

meetings and why it's so important is

18:28

that when it comes time for our annual performance appraisal

18:31

meeting , the work's already done . There is no heavy

18:34

lift . Because I've had consistent conversations throughout

18:38

the year and because I've built that rapport and

18:42

that relationship with my team member , they're

18:45

not gonna be any surprises If

18:47

they've fallen below standard or they've exceeded

18:50

expectations . They're coming

18:52

to that meeting expecting to hear

18:54

that there is no surprise

18:56

or aha at the performance appraisal

18:58

meeting , which should never happen . And

19:01

it makes them a much better leader

19:03

because they've already been doing the work .

19:06

Yes , leaders , there should be no surprise

19:08

when it comes to performance appraisal . If

19:10

you're doing as John is saying , walk through this throughout

19:13

the year . If you imagine for a second

19:15

if you have a kid in school and you didn't find out

19:17

that they did not pass that grade level until

19:19

the end of the year so you have four , nine weeks

19:21

to have gone by you would be furious

19:23

as a parent to find out that at the end of the

19:25

school year your kid did not make it to the next

19:27

grade level . And they knew this every single

19:30

nine weeks . That's not effective , it's not

19:32

good , it's not healthy for anybody whatsoever

19:34

. So I think we owe it to our people

19:36

to always have check-ins . It's almost

19:38

like a responsibility or duty that

19:41

we do check-in . How do you help leaders that are conflict

19:43

adverse and they have to have a tough conversation

19:45

with someone that's not performing well ? They

19:47

are dreading it , they don't wanna do it , they are

19:50

avoiding it at all costs and when they walk in

19:52

, they're not even good at having eye contact

19:54

. They really struggle with addressing conflict .

19:57

Ron , I don't think anybody wakes up in the morning

19:59

and says to themselves I can't wait to deal

20:01

with conflict today . So

20:05

I mean the first thing is , let's just acknowledge

20:07

it's uneasy , it's uncomfortable , it's not

20:09

a pleasant conversation to have right

20:12

. But the word

20:14

that I strongly believe

20:16

should never be a part

20:18

of any kind of critical or

20:20

difficult conversation is

20:23

feel . When

20:25

the leader is having and addressing

20:27

that conflict and they say things

20:29

like I feel , like you , or

20:32

I feel that this situation , it

20:34

is now an opinion and

20:37

opinions are tied to agendas

20:39

, and that never goes

20:41

well in these kind of difficult conversations

20:44

the leader must

20:47

ground the conversation in

20:49

evidence , and in evidence

20:51

the leader has gathered data about

20:54

that employee's performance that

20:56

they can tie to some kind of metric . They

20:58

didn't deliver on time . It was so

21:00

many days late . They said

21:02

this in an email or said

21:05

this at a meeting in front of a client . The

21:08

more you can ground things in

21:10

evidence , the better

21:12

it is to have the conversation , because

21:14

now we're

21:17

talking about facts . We're talking

21:19

about things that absolutely happened

21:22

. One of the things that I am

21:24

always very grateful for in

21:26

my education career was that I spent

21:29

10 years as a local

21:31

union leader , and so

21:33

that meant , as co-president of my local union

21:35

, we was overseeing and leading a group

21:37

of 160 plus

21:39

teachers and administrative professionals

21:42

based on our collective bargaining

21:44

agreement , and there were times when

21:46

, let's just acknowledge , people behave badly

21:48

yes , right . And

21:50

so you would go into a meeting

21:52

and it'd be like did you say this , did

21:55

you do this , did

21:58

you call out sick ? And you really weren't kind of it

22:00

, like whatever the thing was . But

22:02

you always ground it in evidence and

22:05

so I take the feeling out

22:08

of it so I can have a very objective

22:10

conversation . That's

22:12

the best strategy I often find

22:14

when helping leaders navigate because

22:17

, for example , if I'm working with one of my

22:19

one-on-one coaching clients and

22:21

they'll say , oh , I've got this employee and they're not

22:23

performing well , what do you know about

22:25

their performance ? And they'll

22:27

say , well , I think they're not doing

22:29

great quality work . Where

22:31

do you know they're not doing quality work ? Give

22:34

me the data and how

22:36

do we use that to help frame the conversation

22:39

. You can feel before

22:41

, after and during , but

22:43

saying I feel like you're not being a great

22:45

employee , that's not gonna help a conversation

22:48

here .

22:49

Yes , I'm listening , I'm going all the way back to . When you

22:51

do that , it begins to erode trust too . When

22:53

you're going off , yeah , because now it is an opinion

22:55

and it causes friction for us

22:57

as leaders . So when you think about leading

23:00

an organization , you think about where you are now . You've

23:02

had a phenomenal career . You're running a coaching organization

23:04

. Can you share for us and

23:07

time ? I mean because we didn't always get it

23:09

right as leaders . No , what was the best

23:11

lesson you've ever learned as a leader that you still resonate

23:13

with and you still use it today ?

23:16

Oh , feedback needs

23:18

to be timely and it needs

23:20

to happen within 24 to 48

23:22

hours . I remember

23:24

somebody who reported to me that

23:28

they were notorious

23:32

for throwing

23:34

people under the bus taking

23:36

credit when it wasn't theirs . It's

23:38

causing a lot of friction on the team and

23:41

I missed my window . I

23:44

missed my window to give them that feedback and

23:48

the thing that we know about bad behavior

23:50

is that they'll pretty much do it again

23:53

. And I wasn't patient

23:55

and I ended up

23:57

having a check-in meeting with this person and

24:00

I brought up something that happened like a month

24:02

ago and

24:05

they were angry

24:08

and hurt and

24:11

frustrated and defensive

24:13

and they had every right

24:15

to be because I , as a leader in that

24:17

moment , failed them . I

24:20

was pulling stuff out of my bag

24:22

that was frustrating

24:25

and upsetting to me and

24:27

I looked at it as well . I'm just gonna go ahead and say

24:29

it totally the wrong time . What

24:32

I learned after that moment was

24:35

that the reason why I waited

24:37

was because I was afraid

24:39

to have that conversation as the leader , that

24:42

I needed to find a way to

24:44

approach it from , very evidence-based

24:46

and timely , because

24:49

that was what was best

24:52

for them and for

24:54

our relationship . In some

24:56

ways , ron , I destroyed

24:58

that relationship because they didn't trust

25:01

me . After that , Whenever I came back

25:03

with them for feedback . They weren't gonna

25:05

listen because they were like you're an idiot and

25:07

I get it , and so it was one

25:09

of those things that after that I vowed

25:12

I would never do

25:14

that again , because that was a disservice

25:17

to anybody on my team when

25:19

I waited in relaying feedback .

25:21

John , phenomenal . Thank you for sharing

25:23

the story . I really appreciate being transparent

25:26

, being vulnerable , but when we didn't get it

25:28

right at that moment and

25:30

you realize you got it wrong and you

25:32

didn't do the best you probably could have done , what

25:34

was it about you that made you own it at

25:36

that moment ? Because it could have been easy for you to just say , hey

25:38

, if you don't like it , it's fine , I'm not happy with you anyway

25:41

. And blah , blah , blah and continue to point blame and

25:43

shift blame . What was it about you that allowed

25:45

you to own it in that moment so you could get better

25:47

? Because leaders are gonna have that experience

25:49

at some point where they get it wrong and sometimes they just charge

25:51

a hit even though they know it's not appropriate , and they're

25:54

caught up in their emotions and their feelings and their frustration

25:56

. How do you dial it back ? Change

25:58

the temperature in the room and have a healthier conversation

26:00

?

26:01

Well , Ron , I didn't own it in the moment . That

26:03

was the thing , In the heat of the moment and

26:06

the conversation that we were having . There

26:08

was no ownership whatsoever . It

26:10

was an I say , you say I'm

26:12

right , you're wrong , You're

26:14

right , I'm wrong , it was just

26:16

awful . It wasn't until

26:19

later on that night , when I was

26:21

driving home from work and

26:23

I was thinking about that , because normally

26:26

I'm somebody who listens to the radio in the car I didn't

26:28

even turn the radio on the whole way home . And

26:30

I'm going through the whole thing and

26:32

three questions that serve

26:34

me really well in my work are

26:37

what did I do well ? What

26:40

did I learn ? What do I need to work

26:42

on for next time ? What

26:44

did I do well ?

26:45

What did I learn , what do I need to work on for the next time

26:48

? So hopefully , those of you watching and

26:50

listening jot those questions down what

26:52

did I do well , what did I learn and

26:54

what do I need to work on for the next time ?

26:57

Right . And as I was answering those

26:59

questions , what

27:01

I recognized was what

27:04

I did well was I had the conversation . I

27:07

didn't have a great conversation , but at least I had

27:09

it . I learned

27:11

that I

27:14

brought some of my own personal agenda

27:16

into that conversation that I never should have . You

27:19

know my own feelings and thoughts about them and

27:22

their work and how they were an awful team

27:24

player and stuff like that , and

27:26

so one of the things that

27:28

I did and when I thought about

27:30

what I was gonna do better next time , I

27:33

called the person up the next day and

27:36

I called them up and I said I

27:39

am calling you because I

27:41

am owning my part in

27:43

yesterday's conversation , that

27:46

I didn't have the best possible

27:48

conversation I could have with you

27:50

because I brought up things

27:53

that were not in a timely manner and

27:55

I own my part and

27:57

that I got angry at you . I'm

27:59

not asking you to

28:01

own anything in this conversation

28:03

. I am calling up and I'm

28:06

saying this is my responsibility moving

28:09

forward . I promise you that

28:12

if you are open to receiving feedback

28:14

and there is something I believe you

28:16

need feedback on , I will deliver

28:19

it to you within 48 hours , and

28:21

if I don't , I will not

28:23

share it Wow . And

28:25

then I asked them are

28:27

you okay with that ? Yes , asking

28:30

for permission . Yeah , asking for permission

28:32

and getting the buy in , and the

28:35

first thing this person said to me

28:37

was thank

28:39

you for calling Wow

28:43

. Okay , can we agree to these

28:45

next steps ? Yes , and

28:48

that was part of us healing

28:51

. Relationship never really got

28:54

tremendously better , but

28:57

there was respect

28:59

there and that was the big takeaway

29:01

, and anytime I had to get feedback

29:03

after that , it was always within

29:06

that 48 hour window .

29:08

Yeah , I love that you're sharing . Thank you again

29:10

that you said earlier in our

29:12

conversation that it's not about liking

29:15

the person to trust the person , I mean

29:17

and you're gonna come in contact with . It's

29:19

a personality difference but it can

29:21

still be a productive relationship and

29:24

I think oftentimes as leaders , sometimes we feel like

29:26

, hey , if I don't like you , then it's gonna automatically

29:28

attribute to or contribute to trust or no trust

29:30

and we have to be really mindful . We're human

29:33

and we're leaders and I watch leaders get angry

29:35

. I don't like someone and they become very

29:37

destructive . I mean at the end of the day

29:39

, I mean because they don't like someone that's on your team

29:41

. How do you help leaders that do have someone

29:43

that's working for them or reporting to them

29:45

, if you will , and they really don't

29:47

like the person ? I mean they have a really hard . There's

29:49

just a difference in who they are as a

29:51

person , so they're just you and I don't communicate

29:54

the same , or you get on my nerves and I get

29:56

on your nerves . How do you help me lead that person

29:58

effectively if I'm in the leadership role ?

30:01

It's gonna happen . That's the first thing . You're

30:03

going to have people on your team you don't

30:05

like , and that's okay . Where

30:07

you get grounded in is are

30:10

they an effective employee

30:12

, an effective team member , and

30:15

is there a way you

30:17

can respect and honor

30:20

the quality of their work and their contributions

30:22

that do not impact

30:25

the working relationship that

30:27

you two have ? Having

30:30

ground rules about what

30:32

work , communication , feedback

30:34

and other things are going to look like . I

30:37

believe and I have seen it is vital

30:40

to having

30:42

a relationship where there's a certain

30:45

commonality or understanding

30:47

about what our behavior is gonna

30:49

look like . And , for

30:51

the record , that can be something

30:54

as simple as when I see

30:56

you in the hall , I'm going

30:58

to say hi to you , yes , and

31:00

the right thing is that you're gonna say hi back . I'm

31:03

never going to ignore you when I

31:05

see you . Yes , something

31:07

as simple as that . Look , we all

31:09

wanna be seen , heard , acknowledged

31:12

and validated . Yes , everyone of us Okay

31:14

every one of us is listening to this right . We

31:16

wanna be seen , heard , acknowledged and validated

31:18

. So , it's okay , you're gonna

31:20

like more people than others , but

31:23

you in that leadership role

31:25

here's the absolutes you

31:28

must , under the law , provide

31:30

a safe space for them at work . Yes

31:32

, that is free of harassment

31:34

, discrimination , ridicule

31:37

, abuse . You

31:39

, as a leader , are bound by a law

31:41

to do that at a

31:43

minimum . After that

31:45

, you have to figure out your

31:47

company culture , the working environment

31:49

, the work that you do , the interactions , and

31:52

one of the best ways and

31:54

I love this word , it's a word I instill

31:56

in my coaching clients over and over again is

31:59

the word help , saying to

32:01

somebody you may have a tenuous relationship

32:04

with and saying Look , how

32:06

can I help you ? This it

32:09

takes the defenses down , even

32:12

if the relationship is purely transactional

32:14

. Yes , right , like

32:17

, I need you to not ding me on my performance review

32:19

when I've done great work . Okay , fine , I'm

32:21

saying how can I help you ? Right , our

32:23

shoulders drop , like okay , here's

32:26

what I need or here's what I

32:28

want . Anchor your conversations

32:30

and how you can help . It's a great

32:33

way to building a relationship

32:35

that is grounded in respect and something you

32:37

both can be proud of .

32:39

Awesome awesome , john . You shared a lot of great

32:41

information . As we look at our time

32:43

here , a question I want to ask real time

32:45

for us how do you help leaders when

32:48

people perform or behave

32:51

badly ?

32:52

in a meeting . I spent 14

32:54

years teaching sixth , seventh and eighth graders

32:56

. I will tell you that I have run meetings and

32:58

I have run workshops where adults have behaved

33:00

worse .

33:02

I know you have . Yes

33:05

, I know .

33:06

The way that I help them do that is

33:08

we have to establish norms at the beginning of the meeting

33:10

. Part of establishing norms

33:12

is establishing accountability structures

33:15

as well . The norms

33:17

that you set need not to be

33:19

a laundry list of things , but

33:21

three to five things

33:24

that , behaviorally

33:26

, are common expectations

33:28

you adhere

33:31

to and honor in your meetings . These

33:33

norms are around things like how do you

33:36

handle disagreement , how

33:38

do you share time in a meeting

33:40

where you're not monopolizing the

33:42

entire conversation ? One

33:45

of the norms that I picked up when I worked for

33:47

DC public schools was be

33:49

additive , not repetitive . Yes

33:52

, in our meeting , we were always adding to the conversation

33:54

, whatever the norms are . The

33:57

next thing and this is often

33:59

where leaders back off

34:01

and they hesitate , because they'll say , over

34:04

all adults , we know how to do this . No

34:06

, they don't , because in your leadership

34:09

, in your team meeting , in your house , you

34:12

set the ground rules . That includes

34:14

what accountability looks like . A

34:17

lot of times when I'll coach my leaders on

34:19

and I'll do this as well when I'm facilitating

34:21

a workshop is I'll say okay

34:23

, now that we've agreed to these norms , we

34:25

need to talk about what accountability looks like

34:27

. If I see

34:30

you break any of these

34:32

norms that we've just shared . I'm

34:34

going to call you out and it's

34:36

going to say something like this as

34:39

a reminder we've agreed to these norms

34:41

, please adhere to them . I

34:44

may call you out by name if you're a repeat

34:46

offender . We've all

34:48

agreed to behave this way in this space

34:50

and collectively we will do that . Can

34:53

we agree to that ?

34:55

Usually , everybody says yes , you get a verbal . Yes

34:57

.

34:58

Then leaders will go okay , great , I'm done

35:00

. No , you're not . Because then you

35:02

have to say and , in fairness

35:05

, if you happen to see

35:07

me break any of these norms , I

35:10

expect and want you to

35:12

call me out and redirect me back

35:14

to these norms as well . Then I count

35:16

on you to do that . Now

35:18

we have buy it . We have shared

35:20

ownership . The hardest

35:23

part , though , ron , is that

35:25

when somebody does break

35:27

a norm , you have

35:29

to call it out . If

35:31

you don't , it is

35:33

your lack of leadership and

35:35

your lack of acknowledgement in that

35:37

agreement that you

35:40

come across as being weak

35:42

or those norms aren't really

35:44

important . You

35:46

have to hold that accountability

35:48

. The first couple of times you do it , you're

35:51

going to feel like there's a lot of stuff here

35:53

in your throat that's going to come up . It's going

35:55

to get really uncomfortable . You

35:57

have to do it because that is another

35:59

way you build trust

36:01

. You repeat

36:04

those norms every time you

36:06

have a meeting , when somebody

36:08

new comes onto your team . Hey

36:10

, welcome to the team . Really glad to have you here , or

36:12

glad to hear you have for this meeting , since

36:16

you're new . These are the norms that we've set

36:18

. Can you agree to these norms ? You

36:20

pull them in as well . Norms

36:23

are a fantastic way to manage

36:25

expectations in a meeting . Yes

36:27

, set the standard .

36:29

You've shared a lot of great information , John , and

36:31

would love to be able to continue our conversation , our relationship

36:33

, as we

36:35

come to a close . If you had to give us one

36:37

piece of advice to be more effective as a lead

36:39

, what's the one nugget you would drop

36:42

as we get to close ? What would you share with ?

36:43

them . The thing that I would love for

36:46

leaders to take away here is

36:49

that you're in a leadership role

36:51

because you have demonstrated

36:53

what I will call a genius , that

36:56

thing that you do better than

36:58

anybody else . It may be

37:00

technical expertise , it may

37:02

be people management it's usually

37:05

not both . That thing

37:07

I want you to lean in and

37:09

embrace , because that is your sweet

37:11

spot , that is what you are good

37:13

at and it's the value you

37:16

repeatedly add back to your organization

37:18

every day we hear so

37:20

much about . We need to be building on

37:22

our filling our gaps and working

37:25

on our deficits and on some level that's

37:27

true . But for people in leadership

37:29

roles , your greatest value

37:32

is to leverage the thing you are exceptional

37:34

. Find that thing

37:36

you are exceptional at and double

37:39

down on it . One

37:41

, because you will add more value to

37:43

your organization and secondly

37:45

, it will make you a

37:48

stronger and

37:50

more viable candidate whenever

37:52

you're looking at that internal promotion

37:54

or you are ready to leverage your talents

37:57

and expertise and take them elsewhere .

37:59

Yes , yes , thank you John . So

38:01

, so healthy , so great , and all the insight

38:04

that you're sharing . If someone wanted to get in touch

38:06

with you , what's the most effective way for them to ?

38:07

reach out to you . So , ron , thank

38:10

you so much for this conversation . This was a ton

38:12

of fun . If anybody wants to connect

38:14

with me , here's a few ways . You can find

38:16

me on my website at johnnerrillcom

38:19

. You

38:23

can certainly find me on LinkedIn . I would be honored

38:26

if you sent me a connection request and just

38:28

simply said you heard me on Unpacked with Ron

38:30

Harvey . That would be great . On

38:32

my website , I have some free resources

38:34

that people can access and , additionally

38:37

, I'd love for everybody to , if they're

38:39

interested , to check out my podcast . It is

38:41

called the Mid-Career GPS Podcast

38:43

and you can find it wherever you're

38:46

finding Ron's podcast .

38:47

Yes , yes , john . Thank you so

38:49

much , great information . Please reach out to

38:51

him If you're looking for podcast guests

38:53

, just like we do . We can have a conversation

38:56

that begins to add value to the people that we serve . I'm

38:58

sure he would love to have you and he'd love to be

39:00

on the show if you have a podcast as well . Again

39:02

, this is Ron Harvey with Unpacked with Ron

39:04

Harvey , global Core Strategies and Consulting

39:06

. Thank you for joining us . And every Monday

39:09

, we release a new podcast with a guest from

39:11

around the globe to add value to you and

39:13

your journey on leadership . We're in it together

39:15

. We want to win together . We want to make a difference

39:17

together . So until next time , continue to add value

39:19

, make a difference and take care of your team . And

39:22

this is Ron Harvey with John Nero . We'll sign it

39:24

off for today and we hope to see you on the next

39:26

podcast . Thank you for joining us .

39:29

Well , we hope you enjoy this edition

39:31

of Unpacked Podcasts with

39:33

leadership consultant Ron Harvey

39:35

. Remember to join us every Monday

39:38

as Ron Unpacked's sound advice , providing

39:40

real answers for real leadership

39:43

challenges . Until next time , remember

39:45

to add value and make a difference

39:48

where you are or the people you

39:50

serve , because people always

39:52

matter .