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ten twelve girls on the new

1:00

Season of Mind of a Monster

1:02

were unraveling. the case of the

1:04

Butcher Baker who was one of

1:07

the most prolific serial killers in

1:09

Us history. He treated those animals

1:11

that the hunted that are she

1:13

was a child. Listen to Mind

1:15

of a Monster The Butcher Baker

1:17

wherever you get your podcasts. The.

1:22

Following podcast contains explicit language and

1:24

content that may not be suitable

1:26

for all listeners. A

1:32

new class action lawsuit with James

1:34

Burke and Thomas Spota at It's

1:36

Center. It's. A movie and importantly I

1:39

got involved with it. You wake up with enjoy

1:41

the people let really an. Outrage

1:44

over a salary caps peacock documentary

1:46

deal prompts New York law makers

1:48

to make a move, leading us

1:50

to examine the current state of

1:52

son of Sam Was. there

1:54

is a nasty little word and are like

1:56

the coliseum approached moment world college showing a

1:58

fag Rex

2:00

Heuerman's letter to the happy face

2:03

killer Keith Jesperson is made public.

2:06

First off, I would like to say thank you

2:08

for your letter and advice. They've

2:10

been a help and comfort to me. The

2:13

story behind this letter calls for

2:15

a deep dive into the

2:17

controversial world of murder-bilia. When

2:20

Heuerman was taken into custody,

2:22

I knew that people would start putting out

2:25

stuff. They had stuff. Most of

2:27

the victim's families are shocked to find out it's

2:29

happening, and they're stunned to

2:31

find out that someone could actually be in a

2:33

prison cell and shipping items

2:35

out for sale on the open market.

2:38

I've got shoes from Charles

2:40

Manson. Manson's string arts, the

2:42

string dolls, will sell for anywhere from $4,000

2:45

to $8,000. People

2:48

get upset because people get upset about

2:50

everything. I've had people say, oh, it's

2:52

unethical, it's immoral. Well, that's all subjective.

2:56

I'm going to say thank you. I

2:58

will say thank you to them. I'm

3:00

going to say thank you to them. Thank

3:03

you to them. Thank you to

3:05

them. Thank

3:08

you to them. Thank you to

3:10

them. From I.D. and Joke Productions, this

3:12

is Unraveled. Long

3:15

Island serial killer. A

3:27

year ago today, I would have been

3:30

lying if I said an arrest in the Long

3:32

Island serial killer case was on my bingo card

3:34

for 2023. Years

3:37

of stalled investigation under corrupt police

3:39

leadership made me skeptical to that

3:41

possibility. Our

3:43

earlier episodes of this podcast delve deep

3:46

into that saga. If you

3:48

haven't yet listened to them, it's worth your time.

3:52

But the July 14th,

3:54

2023 arrest of Rex Youerman for three

3:56

of the murders associated with the Long

3:58

Island serial killer. has given

4:00

new hope to victims' families. The

4:03

citizens of Suffolk County had had enough,

4:06

and after installing a new district

4:08

attorney, they continued a clean sweep

4:10

in November by voting in

4:12

Ed Romain as the new county executive.

4:15

He has since appointed an interim police

4:17

commissioner while he vests candidates for the

4:19

position. This is the first time in

4:21

22 years that

4:24

the three most powerful positions in Suffolk

4:26

County don't involve James

4:28

Burke, Thomas Spoda, Steve

4:30

Boulogne, or one of their approved

4:33

candidates. And that

4:35

matters when it comes to the Long

4:37

Island Serial Killer investigation. The

4:41

corruption of the department through the

4:43

actions of James Burke, Thomas Spoda,

4:45

and ironically, Spoda's Public

4:48

Corruption Bureau chief, Christopher McPartland,

4:50

is still being unraveled and

4:52

litigated. While Burke has

4:54

finished his sentence, McPartland was just

4:56

released to a halfway house for

4:58

home confinement for the remainder of

5:00

his sentence. Thomas

5:02

Spoda, at the age of 82, is still incarcerated

5:06

with a possible release date eyed for May

5:08

of 2025. Those

5:12

of you familiar with our earlier

5:14

episodes will remember John Oliva, a

5:16

detective who is illegally wiretapped by

5:18

James Burke and Tom Spoda. He

5:21

is now at the center of a

5:24

recently-filed class-action suit that's been filed against

5:26

Suffolk County, James Burke, Thomas

5:28

Spoda, Christopher McPartland, among

5:31

others. I caught

5:33

up with him to get the details, starting

5:35

at the beginning, how we ended up on

5:37

Burke and Spoda's radar to begin with. Even

5:41

though I was pulled out of the federal task

5:43

force, I was constantly in contact with the FBI

5:45

agents. I would talk to them almost daily, because

5:47

I was still handling so many other MS-13 homicide

5:50

cases, and I still had so many informants that

5:52

would reach out. Burke signed it at the time.

5:54

It was a department memo, and it said, you're

5:56

not allowed to talk to outside agencies. And it

5:58

mentions the feds in it. and stuff like that. And

6:01

if you do, you have to let your supervisor know.

6:03

So every time I spoke to an FBI agent, I

6:06

had to let my sergeant at the time, a boss,

6:08

by the way, I talked to defense three times today,

6:10

referenced this case, referenced that case. And

6:12

then my sergeant was supposed to relay that to like

6:15

his lieutenant and his lieutenant was supposed to relay that

6:17

up all the way up to the chief of detectives,

6:19

which would be Madigan. And Madigan was part of the

6:21

administration when a Jimmy Perks boys, and

6:23

they would let Jimmy know only this constantly talking to

6:26

the feds. Once they knew that I was still talking

6:28

to these guys, you know, they're like, this is perfect.

6:30

They were privy to anything that these guys would tell

6:32

me. And then after the fact, you know, they basically

6:34

used it as a like an intimidation to put fear

6:37

into everybody. So they've used

6:39

a ruse. They went to

6:41

a judge and made up a lie about

6:43

a reason to tap your phone. Yes. And

6:47

his reason for doing that

6:49

was because Burke was worried

6:51

that you were talking to the FBI

6:53

and maybe giving them information that could

6:55

harm Burke. The feds would give

6:57

me any tidbits on what was going on in, you

6:59

know, how's that Burke investigation going? Hey, John, we hear

7:02

this might be happening or this might be happening or

7:04

not. Quiet right now. Nothing's doing. They're like, hey, we're

7:06

just going to sit back here, listen on the phone

7:08

and anything that's going on.

7:10

We have the Intel. This doesn't sound

7:12

normal. There was nothing normal about what they

7:14

did. You know, for a department that size, the

7:17

12th largest in the country, you know, it's 2400, 2500

7:20

guys. It's amazing what they got away with

7:22

for that long. They lied to the judge

7:24

they said that there was a pattern robbery that was going

7:26

on that had leaked out to a tiny Lopez at the

7:29

time, which obviously I had nothing to do with what came

7:31

out there in the trial and everything. They

7:33

said the reason for this meeting is we're going to

7:35

fuck John Oliva. And that's when people realized that the

7:37

wire was illegal. Oh my God, look what they did.

7:39

And that's when it opened up everybody's eyes.

7:42

The wire was all about saving Jimmy Burke. It

7:45

is amazing. And when you look at Burke's

7:47

personal life mixed with what he was doing,

7:49

it makes it doubly amazing that like he

7:51

was allowed to do this for

7:53

so long. He was protected by

7:55

Tom Spoda all the way along. The more he screwed

7:57

up, the more they promoted him. It's a

7:59

movie. And unfortunately I got involved with it.

8:01

You wake up sometimes, I still can't believe that

8:03

really happened. And the department this size

8:05

in a county like Suffolk County, say a million

8:08

and a half residents, how the hell does that

8:10

happen? There should be checks and balances that would

8:12

make sure that this doesn't happen. And obviously they

8:14

had all the checks and balances covered. So

8:17

this lawsuit now, as far

8:20

as the class action lawsuit, are

8:22

you part of it? No, I'm not. So once I

8:25

settled with the county, I'm completely out of it. In

8:28

2022, John Oliva settled his claim

8:30

with Suffolk County for $1.5 million. He

8:34

had been pressured by district attorney, Thomas

8:36

Spoda to resign and to plead guilty

8:38

to the crime of leaking information to

8:41

a Newsday reporter, a conviction that

8:43

was overturned in 2021. I

8:46

would say that anybody that was caught up in the wire

8:48

will probably get a letter at some point asking them, do

8:50

they want to take part of this lawsuit? They were up

8:52

on my phone for those three months. I'm not gonna put

8:55

their names out there at this point but certain bosses

8:57

that I was friendly with would call me up and

9:00

they're like, hey John, what's going on? We're so

9:02

fucked up. So they're like, oh, that someone saw his

9:04

names with friends with John Oliva. They

9:06

would kibosh that guy's career. Maybe he wouldn't

9:08

get a promotion or maybe he wouldn't get

9:10

that other command that he wanted or maybe

9:12

they would just transfer him to screw with him and

9:14

stuff like that. So anybody that was a friend of

9:16

mine was not a friend of theirs. Anybody

9:19

that they did like, that's what they would do too. If

9:21

there is going to be a financial settlement

9:23

of some kind, will that be with the

9:25

Suffolk County Police Department or

9:28

the individuals themselves? This would be the county.

9:31

The lawsuit would be against Suffolk County. So

9:33

the end game here is essentially just

9:36

repercussions for life's lack of oversight and

9:38

allowing this to happen? Absolutely.

9:40

All these people that I

9:42

spoke to during that time, they've never even notified that they

9:44

were caught up on a wire to this point. The people

9:46

have the right to be compensated for being caught up in

9:48

an illegal wire. It did harm

9:50

you ultimately, right? I pled to

9:53

the charge. Official misconduct was what it came down to.

9:55

It ended my career. I had just over 20 years

9:58

on. I still might be working now. At

10:00

this point, I'd have 30 years on if I was still working.

10:03

I was doing excellent. I was in major cage handling

10:05

bank robberies and stuff like that. I was one of

10:07

the top guys. They just took it all away from

10:09

me at that point. One

10:11

thing that I've never been super clear on, as far

10:14

as you mentioned it, like the leaking

10:16

of the documents, allegedly to

10:18

Tanya Lopez of the IAB documents

10:20

about work, was that you who gave

10:23

them to her? No, that actually

10:25

came up during the trial. Because internal

10:27

affairs documents, you figure I never even worked in internal

10:29

affairs because you have to be a sergeant or a

10:31

bug. I didn't know if that played a part in all

10:33

of this or not. It came up

10:35

during the trial. I actually remember it was Vinnie Pasilico

10:37

who I was semi-friendly with over the years. It came

10:39

out that he was the one that had given up

10:41

the internal affairs files to Tanya Lopez. I saw him

10:43

in the hallway and he goes, hey John, I'm sorry

10:45

man. I know you ate a lot of shit for

10:47

that but obviously it was me. It came out during

10:49

the trial that no, so and so was the one

10:51

that gave that paperwork up. Someone

10:53

had to do it. To know that

10:56

existed. I think he's a hero for

10:58

doing it. I really do. And you figure at

11:00

that point, Steve Belon at that point should

11:02

have said, Jimmy Burke, you're not my

11:04

chief of department anymore. Were you

11:06

surprised that Burke's arrest? I'll

11:08

tell you, everything that came out about him back

11:11

in the day, the prostitution, losing his

11:13

gun, possible drug use and stuff like

11:15

that. And by surprise, I'm going to

11:17

say no. It's amazing that just people

11:20

went to bat for this guy during all those times.

11:22

And he is what he is. Maybe that doubted

11:24

anything. This should really just open up their

11:26

eyes. This guy is

11:28

what he is. He's a train wreck. He really is. It's

11:31

a shame. In

11:36

other news, when it comes to Rex

11:38

Hureman, we are awaiting the

11:40

grand jury verdict on whether or not he'll

11:42

face charges for the murder of the fourth

11:44

Gilgo IV victim, Maureen Blainard

11:47

Barnes. And

11:50

Aysa Ellerip, Rex's wife, was spotted

11:52

still wearing her wedding ring. While

11:56

she filed for divorce, her actions,

11:58

including attending his recent court of

12:00

appearance, seem to suggest she is

12:02

still very much connecting with her

12:04

husband through this ordeal. And

12:06

for that matter, Rex Huerman is also looking

12:09

out for his family. After

12:11

the release of our last episode, a letter

12:13

Rex Huerman wrote from jail on August 31st of

12:17

2023 was published by the

12:19

dailymail.com. The

12:21

letter was sent to Keith Jesperson, also

12:23

known as the Happy Face Killer. As

12:26

you may remember, Keith's daughter, Melissa, is

12:28

the one who set up the GoFundMe

12:30

page for Rex's wife and their kids.

12:33

And it seems that Rex was very appreciative.

12:36

Here's an excerpt from that letter, and

12:38

we've had it read by someone who is

12:40

obviously not Rex Huerman. Keith,

12:44

first off, I would like to say thank you

12:46

for your letter and advice. They've

12:48

been a help and comfort to me. Being

12:51

only a month and a half into this, as you know, I

12:53

have a lot to think about. Right

12:56

now, I need to get a few things in order,

12:58

which the lawyers are working on. The

13:00

main thing I wanted to say was thank you to

13:02

you and yours for the letters and what has been

13:04

done for mine. Thank you. Rex.

13:11

The letter didn't reveal much more

13:13

information, other than Rex acknowledging he

13:15

has received a lot of letters.

13:18

Quote, asking for interviews, to

13:20

be friends, pen pals, end

13:23

quote. He asked

13:25

Jesperson whether he gets butter for his

13:27

bread at the prison facility which houses

13:29

him. Rex seems

13:31

unimpressed with his food options and

13:33

remarks yard time is just walking

13:35

in circles outside. But

13:37

what really piqued my interest was

13:39

the story behind the letter itself. A

13:43

podcaster named Keith Reverie received

13:45

the letter from Jesperson, and it then made

13:48

its way to the Daily Mail. The

13:51

letter, and the controversy surrounding

13:53

Ace's documentary deal, calls for

13:55

an examination of both the

13:57

industry of memorabilia related to

14:00

serial killers, also known

14:02

as murder-obilia, and

14:04

the state of our country's son of Sam Laws.

14:08

There has been a lot of controversy

14:11

surrounding Rex Sherman's wife, Asa Ellerup, who

14:14

signed a deal rumored to be worth $1 million

14:16

with Peacock for a documentary series.

14:19

We discussed it in the last episode. Since

14:22

then, two bills were introduced in the

14:24

New York State Legislature, proposing to expand

14:27

the state's son of Sam Laws in

14:29

order to prevent families of criminals from

14:31

profiting off the notoriety of their crimes.

14:35

The viability of these bills are unclear,

14:37

although these moves by lawmakers do

14:40

amplify the voices of the victims

14:42

of these crimes who hardly ever

14:44

financially benefit. I

14:46

reached out to Amanda, sister of Megan

14:48

Waterman, one of the Gilgo IV victims

14:51

who Rex Sherman stands accused of murdering.

14:54

It means so much to hear from

14:56

a family member about this stuff. We

14:58

were just interested in hearing how

15:01

you feel about the Peacock documentary.

15:04

It's kind of mind-blowing to know how

15:07

much she got. I mean, if you

15:09

have that much to offer one person,

15:11

why did none of the other victims'

15:13

families get offered anything? What

15:15

baffles me is, what if she is a part

15:17

of this? When you hear that her hair was

15:19

found on my sister, it's like, wait, what? Giving

15:23

her the benefit of the debt and hoping and

15:25

praying that she had no knowledge of this or

15:27

whatever. I was

15:29

really torn on this because,

15:32

me personally, I would not

15:34

feel right taking money because

15:36

I just feel like I'm making money off my

15:38

sister's death. But

15:43

if I was to get money or something, I

15:45

would have definitely put it towards a tombstone because

15:47

she needs that. If they had

15:49

said, hey, if you

15:51

do this episode for me, I will

15:55

buy Megan's tombstone.

15:57

I would have done that and the snap of the

15:59

finger. Amanda, I don't know

16:01

if you've seen this, Rex Euerman wrote

16:03

a letter to Cute Despersons. There's

16:06

a lot of people online, they buy

16:08

and sell letters online and they're collectors

16:10

of these things. That's insane.

16:15

That's insane. I

16:18

didn't even know that. That's crazy. So

16:22

are you saying that like, so

16:26

with the Rex Euerman letters, who would get that

16:28

money? Well, it just depends on

16:31

who has the letter. I

16:33

went on eBay and there's

16:36

like a Rex Euerman middle school yearbook

16:38

going for like $1,000. Would

16:40

just be whoever had it. That's

16:43

just so crazy to me. I

16:47

thought it's crazy. Coming

16:56

up next, we learn what these types of

16:58

letters are worth and whether or not laws

17:01

are being broken by those who profit off

17:03

of them. It's a

17:05

fascinating exploration with two

17:07

people on opposite sides of this domain.

17:19

The letter that Rex Euerman wrote

17:21

to convicted serial killer Keith Jesperson

17:23

has been made public via the

17:25

Daily mail.com. It all

17:27

feels sort of, well, icky

17:30

and exploitative. And

17:32

I wanted to know more about this strange world.

17:37

A quick Google search for serial

17:39

killer memorabilia will have your head

17:41

spinning. You can have your

17:43

very own John Wayne Gacy painting of a

17:45

clown skull for $19,500. You

17:50

can have a three page Ted Bundy letter and

17:52

envelope set signed for $4,200 or a hand drawn

17:57

fill in the blank Christmas card with envelope

17:59

from Denzel. also known

18:01

as BTK for a steal at $500.

18:05

And you can address it to whomever

18:07

you like and send them a card

18:09

from BTK that says season's greetings. There

18:12

are also objects from Charles

18:15

Manson, Ted Kaczynski and Darlie

18:17

Routier. We

18:19

don't know whether money has changed hands for

18:21

the Rex Euerman handwritten letter, but

18:23

now that it's out there, someone may want to

18:25

pay for it. Who

18:28

buys these? Who sells these?

18:31

How big is this industry? To

18:33

get a better understanding, I spoke with Andy Khan.

18:37

Can you start from the beginning about how you got into

18:39

this? I'm Director of Victim

18:42

Services, Crime Stoppers of Houston. I've

18:44

been a victim advocate now for over

18:46

30 some odd years in the mayor's

18:48

office, police department, and now

18:51

at Crime Stoppers, prior to that I was

18:53

a parole and probation agent, so I chased

18:55

Houston's finest all over the city

18:57

and the county. On the issue

18:59

of murderabilia, which was a word I

19:01

ended up coining to describe this wacky

19:04

industry, it was the fall of 1999.

19:07

I was reading a Rochester paper online

19:09

and I had a little blurb about

19:12

it. New York serial killers, art

19:14

privileges being rescinded because prison officials

19:17

discovered he had artwork for sale

19:19

on eBay. And that

19:21

serial killer's name was Arthur Shawcross. I

19:25

had intrigued me and I

19:27

just went over to eBay and clunked a

19:29

surgeon for serial killers and items came pouring

19:31

out. I was

19:33

instantly mesmerized, dumbfounded, perplexed.

19:37

I was like, wait a second, you can't

19:39

be profiting from committing some of the worst

19:41

crimes. None of mankind just

19:43

can't be legal. Contacted

19:45

eBay's Public Affairs and

19:48

they very succinctly said, Andy, we're not

19:50

the morality police. As long as

19:52

it's legal, we have an obligation offered to our

19:55

customers and you don't like it, feel free to

19:57

do something about it. And I just went, sure.

20:00

just decided I was going to take this industry on.

20:02

I started working on crafting

20:04

laws called notoriety for profit laws.

20:07

ABC's 2020 got wind of what was

20:09

going on. eBay sent out a

20:12

news release stating they were no

20:14

longer allowed a sale of murder ability out

20:16

of respect to victims' families. The

20:18

timing of their news release in

20:20

the 2020 program was merely coincidental.

20:23

Coincidental. They actually

20:25

done a very good job of policing

20:27

their sites. So what happened was kind

20:30

of like when you exterminate cockroaches from

20:32

one room, they simply set up shops

20:34

somewhere else. So the dealers that

20:37

could no longer use eBay as the

20:39

conduit simply set up websites of their

20:41

own. So that kind of

20:43

fast forwards us to where we are now. So you

20:45

have about five to seven

20:47

dealers throughout the country that operate

20:50

websites selling items

20:52

that they've obtained from serial killers,

20:55

mass murder school shooters, high profile

20:57

killers that are then marketed and

21:00

sold at a profit to the public. And

21:03

when you first started familiarizing yourself

21:05

with this industry, what kind of

21:07

items were you getting?

21:10

There was a California serial killer

21:12

that sold his fingernail

21:15

clippings, which I admit I

21:17

have. I have several artifacts of clothing

21:19

that are worn. I have

21:21

artwork, letters, autographs,

21:25

hair samples are a big commodity. I

21:28

have five different hair

21:31

samples from serial killers. You

21:33

name it, anything that can and attached with

21:35

their name can and will be sold on

21:37

the open market. I felt it

21:40

was important to actually show that this industry

21:42

does exist. So when

21:44

I appeared before elected bodies and whipped

21:46

out somebody's hair sample or artwork or

21:48

whatever, they could actually see that this

21:51

is happening and it is being done

21:53

in their jurisdiction. So

21:56

I haven't bought anything in years mainly because

21:58

I pretty much have everything. I mean? As

22:02

part of Andy's efforts, he reached out to

22:04

about 20 serial killers to check if they

22:06

even knew these items were being sold. There

22:09

was one response that was truly surprising.

22:12

David Berkowitz, the son of Sam, whom

22:14

all the profiting laws were named after. And

22:17

he asked me if there was anything you could do to

22:19

help me. I asked him for a statement, which he provided.

22:22

And for the last 20 plus years, he

22:24

and I have been corresponding on

22:27

this issue. He's been a tremendous help. And

22:29

it doesn't get any better when you have

22:31

the son of Sam, who all the profiting

22:33

laws are named after, actually working on your

22:35

behalf. You can't script that. Did

22:38

his response surprise you? I

22:40

was shocked. I didn't know if

22:42

they were aware of it. Wow. Will

22:45

you explain for the layperson sort of the

22:47

inception of the son of Sam concept as

22:49

it relates to the laws? So

22:52

the son of Sam laws were enacted in

22:54

1977, basically somewhere in the

22:56

late 70s. There

22:59

was New York had a killer by the

23:01

name of David Berkowitz who killed six

23:03

wounded seven captivated the entire city of New

23:06

York and the nation. And

23:09

when he was taken into custody and

23:11

eventually convicted, there were a

23:13

great deal of concerns. There were rumors

23:15

going around that he was getting

23:17

a book deal. He was signing movie

23:19

rights. Actually, none of it was true,

23:21

but the friends he took over in New

23:24

York ended up passing what's

23:26

called son of Sam laws, basically

23:28

making it illegal for convicted felons

23:30

to sell their rights for

23:32

books and movies. It sat

23:34

on the laws for

23:36

years. And then in 1991, there

23:39

was a test case and

23:41

it was involved Simon and Schuster versus

23:44

Henry Hill. Now the name Henry Hill

23:46

probably won't ring a name for

23:48

a lot of people. But

23:50

if you've ever seen the movie Goodfellas,

23:52

that's the actual character that Ray Liotta

23:55

plays. Simon and Schuster offered Hill

23:57

a quarter million dollars for the rights to

23:59

his story. New York

24:01

crime victim compensation board sued under

24:03

the Son of Sam statute and

24:06

it went all the way up to a little-known

24:08

court known as the United States Supreme Court. The

24:11

United States Supreme Court ruled in favor of

24:14

Simon and Schuster striking down the Son of

24:16

Sam laws because the

24:18

Son of Sam laws dealt with

24:20

restricting free speech. Most people still

24:23

to this day are under this delusion that

24:25

we have protection from Son of Sam laws

24:28

and they're shocked to find out the US Supreme

24:30

Court ruled it unconstitutional. I'll

24:32

give you another example. Years

24:35

ago, Columbia Pictures offered

24:37

a half a million bucks to

24:39

two kidnappers who were

24:42

convicted of kidnapping Frank Sinatra Jr.

24:45

Frank Sinatra Jr. sued under the

24:47

California Son of Sam statute and

24:50

it went all the way up to the California State

24:52

Supreme Court who ruled in

24:55

favor of Columbia Pictures striking down

24:57

California Son of Sam laws again

24:59

because the language restricted free speech.

25:02

So the Son of Sam laws for all intents

25:04

and purposes they might be on the books but

25:06

they're subject to be challenged and

25:08

any challenges have voted in

25:10

favor of convicted felons so I

25:13

started looking at the issue of

25:15

simply profiting from crime. Basically

25:17

say, you know what paint scratch sniff doodle

25:19

right do whatever the hell you want. You

25:22

just don't make money off of it. As

25:25

a victim advocate have victims or

25:27

families of victims ever voiced their opinions to you what

25:29

kind of things do they say? When

25:32

I sent this to a

25:34

very well-known victim advocate in

25:36

California name you might recognize

25:38

Mark Klass. I said Mark

25:40

I said I need you to get online

25:42

with me at that time and I said I need to

25:45

show you something what's going on and sure

25:47

enough there was a picture

25:49

of Richard Allen Davis who murdered

25:51

his daughter Polly and

25:53

there was a picture of him shortlist in the

25:55

prison yard and Sam Quentin that was being sold

25:57

and I'll never forget Mark so this is absolutely

26:00

sickening and he said

26:02

my daughter didn't talk

26:05

to my daughter's death. Another victim

26:07

said it was like a gut punch to

26:10

her and for the most part most of

26:12

victims families are shocked to find out it's

26:14

happening and they're stunned to

26:16

find out that someone could actually be in

26:18

a prison cell and shipping

26:20

items out for sale on the open

26:23

market. How fanatical does it

26:25

get? Like I went on eBay today just

26:27

to see like if there's any Rex Heuerman

26:29

stuff on there and I found his middle

26:31

school yearbook for sale for almost $1,000. Does

26:33

that surprise you? You're not

26:35

going to have big names for

26:38

real killers and that's mainly because of

26:40

technology. Technology is not going to allow

26:42

killers to get away with what they've got

26:44

away with in the 70s 80s and even

26:47

the early 90s. The minute BTK

26:49

was arrested of course I immediately

26:51

knew that items would come out

26:54

and God did they come out and

26:56

he came out in droves. This

26:58

is the merchandising and marketing of

27:01

BTK. So when Heuerman

27:03

was taken into custody

27:05

I knew that people would start putting out

27:08

stuff if they had stuff. So

27:10

what's going to happen in Heuerman right

27:12

now by definition he's not convicted

27:15

of anything so he's fair game.

27:17

I'll give an example when Jodi

27:19

Arias was standing trial

27:21

for her murder she was one

27:24

of them like the Queen. Everybody

27:26

knew her even during trial she

27:28

was drawing and writing. Assuming Heuerman

27:30

does get convicted once he gets

27:32

settled into a New York prison

27:34

they will come after him because

27:36

he's a big name and he's

27:38

a big get and serial

27:41

killer in the last decade he's probably the

27:43

only name serial killer that I can recall.

27:45

It sounds like you made

27:47

a big dent with eBay but like

27:49

where do you see something like the yearbook

27:52

right? Like this is obviously a middle school

27:54

classmate who's going to be profiting. The

27:57

difference is that's a tangible

28:00

item, a manufactured item. And we

28:02

had to differentiate and ask items

28:04

that are actually produced and created

28:07

by the killers themselves versus

28:10

manufactured items. So

28:12

for example, again, in

28:14

my duffel bag, I have a Jeffrey Dahmer

28:16

doll that has on his shoes,

28:18

it says, eat me. And he's got a giant

28:21

spatula. You know, I have serial

28:23

killer coloring books. I have

28:25

serial killer action figures. I

28:27

have serial killer snow globes. I

28:30

have serial killer bobble heads.

28:32

And that's what Cuyraman's, your

28:34

book basically represents. There's

28:36

nothing illegal. It's a bad

28:38

taste. Yeah. I'd be wasting

28:40

my time going after bad taste. Nothing's going

28:42

to happen. So that's why that

28:45

remains up there. How do

28:47

you feel about things like documentaries?

28:49

Like I'm sure you've heard that

28:51

Rex Cuyraman's wife has tend to

28:53

deal with peacock. I'm

28:56

the constitutionalist and the

28:58

bottom line right now, you might

29:00

not like it as Rex Cuyraman right now

29:02

is innocent until proven guilty. He

29:05

hasn't been convicted of anything. So if he's

29:08

convicted, then it would be an extreme battle.

29:10

But right now it's fair game.

29:12

Bottom line. What about his

29:15

spouse though? People are going

29:17

to make money. Everybody makes money on

29:19

this. The only ones who never make money

29:21

are victims. Everything that can make a

29:23

believe in dying on any of this.

29:26

I think that's something that, you know, Cuyraman's

29:28

wife is going to have to wrestle with

29:30

her own conscience. I guess

29:33

some would say it's blood money. It is.

29:35

But on the same token, someone

29:38

has to offer it to her. So who's

29:40

in the wrong? I've told

29:43

families, look, there is nothing you

29:45

can do. I get it. You don't like it.

29:48

But the question is, all right, we have to

29:50

make sure that we have a voice. Cuyraman

29:53

and Jesperson, what do you

29:55

make of that? I am not surprised

29:57

at all because I know Jesperson. know

30:00

his giant ego,

30:03

his insatiable need to find to

30:05

be relevant. I'm not shocked at

30:07

all. I was pretty

30:09

mystified. And it's like that letter then

30:12

was made public. And I'm not sure who possesses

30:15

it. How much would a letter from one

30:18

serial killer to another go for? It

30:20

would go for a lot. I'm not seeing

30:23

serial killer to serial killer correspondence up

30:25

for sale. That I've not seen. Because

30:28

it's unthinkable. You have

30:30

capitalism, free enterprise, free

30:32

speech, victims' rights,

30:35

defendants' rights, and morality all rolled

30:37

into this one little neat subject

30:39

right here. And

30:47

that's what makes it so complex. To

30:49

get the other side of the argument, Andy helped

30:52

put us in touch with one of his contacts,

30:54

a collector and broker of serial killer objects.

30:57

Naturally, it's a connection fraught with

30:59

disagreement, but they've managed to keep

31:01

an open dialogue. William

31:03

Harder began as a collector and

31:05

evolved into a broker, buying and

31:08

selling all kinds of murder-obilia. I

31:10

asked him for what started his passion for the

31:12

Stark industry. When

31:16

I was, well, it must have

31:18

been books

31:20

or seven, I went to the

31:22

Roman Colosseum and I was trying

31:24

to fathom how two people would stab

31:27

each other in a duel to the

31:29

death and that people would watch this and

31:31

enjoy it. It was so foreign

31:34

to me. Like I just could not

31:36

understand that. But I was

31:38

really captivated with it. As I

31:40

got older, just that interest in those

31:43

darker parts of human behavior just became

31:45

something that I took an interest in.

31:48

And I remember it was in 2000,

31:50

I was actually depressed. I

31:52

just had a bad breakup. I was

31:55

drinking and drug-addicted. And I was

31:57

going on the internet, which was very new to me

31:59

at the time. And I found

32:01

a website that had just pictures of

32:03

Richard Ramirez's drawings, the night stalker from

32:05

California. And I just saw them and

32:07

was like, I want one

32:10

of those. Where do you get

32:12

these? And I just began looking

32:14

to find Richard Ramirez's prison number.

32:17

And I eventually just searching, Richard

32:19

Ramirez over and over through the different

32:22

pages. I eventually found the death row

32:24

inmate list. And there it was.

32:26

And I wrote him. And he wrote back.

32:29

And after a couple of years, he sent me visiting

32:31

forms and asked me to come to see him. And

32:34

I just remember it was

32:36

just a real exciting experience.

32:38

And I enjoyed it very much. After

32:41

that meeting, did you learn something? Like,

32:43

what was gratifying about it? I

32:46

mean, kind of like seeing a bear in a

32:48

cave that has mauled a bunch of people. It

32:50

has this heavy tendency for violence. This was somebody

32:52

that I'd read about as a youngster that I

32:54

was definitely kind of, you know, curious what his

32:57

mannerisms would be like. And it

32:59

was just really neat. If you couldn't just walk up

33:01

to the prison, let me in. That's

33:03

not how that worked. I had to

33:06

work hard to get it. So there was a

33:08

sense of accomplishment. And it just, I don't know,

33:10

it was something that I really enjoyed. And

33:12

I began replicating it shortly after that.

33:16

And began visiting, you know, with other people.

33:19

What compelled you to want to reach out to them? Like,

33:21

what compelled you to want tangible things? Like,

33:24

the actual items? Like, what do you think

33:26

that stems from? I guess

33:28

I just didn't want somebody else's interpretation.

33:31

I essentially wanted to sit

33:33

down and ask them questions. And

33:35

a book wasn't going to answer those. And as

33:37

far as tangible things, I've

33:39

always been a collector. I've

33:41

always been an autograph collector. Since I was

33:44

old enough, like, I got, one

33:46

of my first autographs was Eugenie Clark and

33:48

David Copperfield. I think collecting is just something

33:50

that people do. And there's people that get

33:52

it. And there's people that don't. Some

33:55

people want to collect baseball cards. Others, it's stamps.

33:58

I like collecting things for free. related

34:00

to crimes. What are some things

34:02

in your collection that you're proud of? When

34:05

people ask what my favorite item is, it's

34:08

really not an item, it's the

34:10

collective experience of doing all this.

34:13

Nothing will replace going in

34:15

and meeting with Charles Manson.

34:18

How did you get interested in Manson, like to

34:20

the point where you visited him? I

34:22

didn't have an interest in Manson until after I

34:24

visited him actually. I just wrote

34:26

him a letter because he was relatively close

34:29

to me. He didn't write back and

34:31

I tried him a second time and he didn't write back.

34:33

It was kind of a turn off but then I saw

34:35

a guy on murder auction he was selling a letter that

34:37

was less than a week old. Like he

34:40

had just got this letter and I thought

34:42

to myself, if this guy can get Manson

34:44

to write him so can I. So

34:47

I gave it another shot and I got my

34:49

best writing pen out and just did a nice

34:52

one and a half pages. Sent it to

34:54

him and sure enough he wrote

34:56

back and turns out he was in the hole

34:58

so he was really just kind of

35:00

focused on reading mail and I told

35:03

him that I wanted to visit and again

35:05

because of my close proximity he sent

35:07

me a visiting form which was not a very

35:09

commonplace thing. Manson did not take a lot of

35:11

visitors and that's a whole story in and of

35:13

itself. The process it's much different

35:16

than any other inmates I've ever visited

35:18

but when I you know when

35:20

I did finally get to see him the gravity of

35:22

it hit me and I started doing some research and

35:24

you know it was it

35:26

was definitely a life-changing experience.

35:31

More with William next including

35:34

what he thinks Rex Euremin's experience

35:36

will be like if

35:38

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BIG humans litter. to convicted happy face

38:01

killer Keith Jesperson, was made public,

38:03

and the frenzied interest in this

38:05

letter led me to explore the

38:07

dark world of serial killer memorabilia, also

38:10

referred to as murderabilia. The

38:13

moral implications, the money and beyond.

38:16

William is a collector and broker in

38:18

this strange world, an industry

38:20

where serial killer objects such as art,

38:23

letters, and even fingernail clippings are

38:26

bought and sold. How

38:28

much money is in this industry? John

38:30

Gacy paintings, you can get them anywhere from three

38:32

to $6,000 is what they're going

38:35

for. 6,000 being a bit on the high end, 3,000

38:38

being a bit on the low end. Jeffrey

38:40

Dahmer is a hot commodity. Ted Bundy, those

38:42

items also. But there's not as

38:44

many of those items around, and they are expensive. If

38:47

anybody's thinking about trying to get into this to

38:49

make money, just go to school and

38:51

get a different job. How do you

38:53

quantify what something's worth, and how

38:55

hungry are people for this stuff?

38:57

At the end of the day, it's worth what

38:59

somebody's willing to pay, and that

39:02

often gets dictated by, if

39:04

a case gets a lot of public

39:07

scrutiny, that's gonna increase the

39:09

value. If a case is

39:11

particularly heinous, like Dahmer, he

39:13

was a cannibal killer, Netflix

39:15

documentaries, podcasts, things of that

39:17

nature just only draws and

39:19

creates more of a public interest. And if

39:22

somebody's already, let's say, dead, and there's

39:24

a finite number of items out there, people

39:27

will then see, and it's like, oh

39:29

man, there's not a lot of this,

39:31

I need to get one. As far

39:33

as demand, I'm also fond of saying

39:36

it all sells, because it all does.

39:38

People will buy anything, and everything, whether

39:40

a case is obscure, and nobody

39:42

knows about it, to the

39:45

cases that grip the headlines every day. Do

39:47

you follow what's being sold?

39:51

Not really. I tend to just

39:53

kinda do my own thing. I do want these

39:55

items to go to people who are gonna appreciate them,

39:57

as silly as that might sound. I've

39:59

got some dollars. that Charles Manson made that

40:01

are real impressive. There was a young man

40:03

named Sean Sellers who murdered his stepfather, his

40:05

mother, and a store clerk. I like to

40:07

have photos of him as a child, photos

40:10

of him with his mother, letters his

40:12

mother wrote. I mean, things that are really personal.

40:15

They were very hard to accumulate. I've

40:17

got shoes from Charles Manson. I want

40:19

somebody who's gonna take care of it

40:21

and cherish it and generally items that

40:23

inmates have sent to me personally. I

40:25

don't sell those. I don't sell my

40:27

own personal correspondence. Those items I want

40:29

to keep for myself, but everything is

40:31

for sale. The price is right. I'll

40:33

have to see if I can live

40:36

without it. How much did you

40:38

pay for the Manson stuff? Oh,

40:40

it wasn't the cheapest. Without

40:42

going into too many details, back

40:44

in 2005, there was a completely

40:47

different market back then. I

40:49

mean, at the time, it was expensive. It was expensive to

40:51

me. I was probably,

40:54

though, paying about maybe

40:56

30% to

40:58

40% market value. Because

41:01

you bought it in 2005, and I'm guessing

41:03

not like Manson stuff because he's no longer

41:06

with us. Just goes up

41:08

in value because so much time has passed

41:10

and there's a finite amount, right? Maybe the

41:12

better question is like, what would

41:14

the Manson item you bought then go for now?

41:17

Manson String Arts, the String Dolls, will

41:19

sell for anywhere from $4,000 to $8,000.

41:23

I know one just sold recently

41:25

for eight, but it was like a 2 1�2 foot.

41:28

It was real big. The smaller ones,

41:30

they'll go between four and six, usually.

41:33

And he puts his hair in them. With some

41:35

of the ones I have, you can actually see

41:37

that his hair, like kind of popping out in

41:39

between the strings, was a way to give them

41:41

life. I don't really want to say what I

41:43

spent. Just because

41:45

it's, I just don't want to say that. I just want

41:48

everybody to listen to. Have you

41:50

ever faced any criticism about

41:52

contributing to this industry?

41:55

Well, yeah, people get upset because people get

41:57

upset about everything. I've had people say... it's

42:00

unethical, it's immoral, well that's

42:02

all subjective. I don't wear

42:04

leather or fur because I

42:06

have a moral objection to it. But I don't

42:08

tell anybody what they can and can't wear. I

42:11

just do what's good for me. I don't consume

42:13

those things, but that's me. I don't tell anybody

42:15

else what they can and can't do. Do

42:18

you think this glorifies these killers or

42:20

makes them more important than they should

42:22

be? There are people who

42:25

have private collections of

42:27

war-related memorabilia or civil

42:30

rights-related memorabilia. Is that a glorification of

42:32

war? John Wilkes Booth

42:34

autograph cost infinitely more than one from

42:36

Abraham Lincoln. And that's not me setting

42:39

the market. Adolf Hitler

42:41

paintings aren't cheap. And believe me, I

42:43

didn't set the market for those either.

42:46

Those things sell for tens of thousands

42:48

of dollars. If your

42:51

family was murdered in the Holocaust,

42:53

you'd be like, that is awful.

42:57

That person has caused great angst and

42:59

pain to my family. Now, this person

43:01

is going to make tens of

43:03

thousands of dollars selling that painting.

43:06

What's the difference? The grief

43:09

doesn't change. There's just more

43:11

of it to go around. And the thing is, it would

43:13

kind of excuse it because you kill one person,

43:15

you're a murderer, you kill a thousand, you're

43:17

a conqueror. I'm not actively

43:19

advocating for anybody to hurt anybody. I'm

43:22

certainly not encouraging anybody

43:24

to kill people. I

43:26

don't, for one minute, think people, when

43:29

they're out committing violent crimes, are thinking of themselves,

43:31

well, man, maybe I'll get as big as John

43:33

Gacy and people will want to write me and

43:36

buy my money. Nobody's thinking that. I mean,

43:38

just say that out loud to yourself.

43:40

And if you still think it, man,

43:42

that's silly. You're a silly goose. That's

43:45

silly. One of my repeat

43:47

customers, a guy who's a psychologist trying to figure

43:49

out how to do school shootings is actually a

43:51

doctor. I've had police

43:54

organizations doing handwriting analysis

43:56

order volumes of letters. If

43:59

I wasn't... providing. This,

44:01

it wouldn't be available. To.

44:03

Are. Legitimate people in some of

44:05

the stuff. Does end up in museums. I've.

44:08

Seen items that I've sold, End

44:10

up in museums for public display,

44:13

I'm interested about how you and

44:15

and he came to reclaim dead.

44:18

Even your opposing views

44:20

access. More. The first time we

44:22

met we were in New York job keeping

44:24

an episode of they Anderson Cooper so I

44:27

took a little jab at him for the

44:29

try to have me arrested for tic engraved

44:31

or from a cemetery and I was like

44:33

you're risking didn't work out so well. And

44:35

he said to me of nothing personal. Why

44:38

I was his personal believe it started our

44:40

dialogue and and and as time progressed and

44:43

in I oddly enough agree on a great

44:45

many things may Indian I just happened to

44:47

not agree on this. This. Issue

44:49

with his as an emotional issues and my

44:51

issue is that this is America needs don't

44:53

get to tell people that you can sell

44:56

stuff and his side as Unamerican. And.

44:58

His side is emotionally. Based.

45:01

And. I'll be honest, if somebody

45:03

had murdered me when I was five

45:05

years old, my mother would never be

45:07

okay with somebody profiting off of my

45:10

murder. Ever. She would never

45:12

accept that an eye on would

45:14

understand that and I do empathize

45:16

with that. Unfortunately, we

45:18

live in a society.

45:21

Where. The The Letter Of the

45:23

Laws Free Enterprise We. Have. The

45:25

right to pursue happiness. In

45:27

this country. Because. A

45:29

segment of society is offended by something,

45:32

doesn't give you the right to say

45:34

you can. I'm talking about making laws

45:36

that govern. Millions of people,

45:39

I think it's very dangerous and sitting

45:41

most with and prisoner just trying to

45:43

do their time and come home. Not

45:45

going to say that inmates haven't. sold the

45:47

memorabilia related to their crimes in the

45:49

past or even easier than the president

45:52

mccullough see the that never happens but

45:54

in most cases there's only about probably

45:56

two hundred living in made said of

45:58

any sort of real collectability out of

46:00

like the 2.4 million Americans

46:03

that are incarcerated at this time. It's

46:06

such a small number. Andy

46:08

said we should make federal laws to punish these,

46:10

you know, to strip away more rights from

46:12

laws that are just going to get abused.

46:15

It'll be something that will give officers

46:17

the ability to

46:20

selectively punish inmates. It'll be used

46:22

to just punish people and

46:25

destroy inmates who just want to do crafts

46:27

for their kids, man. I can't get with

46:29

it. I think it's a bad call. I

46:32

asked William about Rex Huerman. Have

46:35

you seen anything pertaining to Rex

46:37

Huerman for sale yet? I

46:39

have not. On eBay, there's a

46:41

middle school yearbook of his for sales

46:43

like a thousand dollars. Andy, he's, you

46:46

know, expecting for that to be the next

46:48

sort of wave of stuff that's going to

46:51

hit this murder bail market. Somebody

46:53

will write to him and gain

46:55

his trust, whether that's a female

46:58

companion or a man posing as

47:00

a woman, somebody will gain

47:02

his trust and will start receiving letters.

47:04

I might ask him to do a

47:07

drawing, something of that nature.

47:09

And then we'll start amassing items that

47:11

will ultimately get sold one day. The

47:13

other thing that will happen is once

47:15

he gets to prison, the correctional officers

47:17

will start, they'll go into his cell

47:19

and steal family photos out of his

47:21

photo album. Or if he takes a photo

47:23

in the prison visiting, they'll, the officers will print out an

47:25

extra one, take it out, give it to their friend to

47:27

sell. And those items will

47:29

slip into the market that way. They will

47:32

turn up, especially if, let's

47:35

say, somebody writes him and he, you know, just

47:37

writes them back the one time they put the letter

47:39

up for sale. And when you're sitting in prison, you

47:41

know, you tend to have a lot of time on

47:43

your hands and people get creative with writing letters. And

47:46

it's, that's what people do when they're incarcerated.

47:54

Murder abelia. There's this

47:56

whole other world that I hadn't

47:58

previously explored. The son

48:00

of Sam laws, maybe because of their

48:02

catchy title, seem to have stuck in

48:05

the true crime consciousness. I

48:07

spoke with David Hudson, a

48:09

Freedom Forum First Amendment fellow, as well

48:11

as Belmont Law Professor, and he was

48:14

pretty clear with me that these laws

48:16

don't hold much weight. What

48:18

is your immediate take on

48:21

son of Sam? They're very

48:23

problematic from a First Amendment

48:25

standpoint because they're content-based restrictions

48:28

on speech. There's

48:30

a famous quote always from my students written

48:32

by Justice Thurgood Marshall back in 1972, and

48:36

I may mess it up a little bit,

48:38

but it's something to the effect, above all

48:40

else, the First Amendment means the government may

48:42

not restrict speech because of its message, its

48:45

ideas, its subject matter,

48:48

or its content. Back

48:50

in 1991, the U.S. Supreme Court, in

48:52

the Simon and Schuster case, invalidated

48:55

New York's existing son of

48:57

Sam law, finding that it

48:59

did not need strict scrutiny because

49:02

it was a content-based law. It

49:04

was certainly content-based because it

49:07

only targeted certain works based on their

49:09

content. And then the court also held

49:11

that it was simply too broad because

49:14

it could apply to any book in

49:17

which an author mentioned, even

49:19

made passing mention of a

49:21

past crime, right? So I

49:23

think in Justice O'Connor's main

49:26

opinion, she said it could

49:28

apply to the confessions of

49:30

St. Augustine, the autobiography of

49:32

Malcolm X, books by Bertrand

49:34

Russell. You know what I mean?

49:36

Anybody who's been arrested, right? Dr.

49:38

King was arrested for civil rights activism,

49:40

right? Civil rights protesting. So the laws

49:43

are just very problematic from a First

49:45

Amendment standpoint. The problem with these laws

49:47

is it impacts not just the criminal

49:50

or a person convicted of a crime,

49:52

but it could impact the right of

49:54

the general public to receive information and

49:56

ideas, which I consider to be a

49:59

very good example. be one of the

50:01

most venerable and venerated free speech principles

50:03

that we have that we as individuals

50:05

in society have a right to receive

50:08

information and ideas and the government should

50:11

be very limited in how it can

50:13

constrict or limit that. Right,

50:15

because it's such a slippery slope. Should

50:17

these laws be passed, there

50:19

could be implications going in the

50:21

other direction that could hinder free speech

50:23

in ways that are not being considered.

50:26

Exactly, and there's a nasty little word in

50:28

our lexicology in the First Amendment world called

50:30

the chilling effect. And a son

50:33

of Sam law I think does have

50:35

a real chilling effect on

50:37

writers to discuss past

50:39

crimes or criminal activity. And the

50:42

reality is it's an absorbing interest

50:44

of mankind to write on these

50:46

things. So another

50:49

implication of son of Sam

50:52

laws would also just be censorship. That's

50:54

a big concern too. Absolutely,

50:56

and the censorship and the chilling

50:59

effect that these laws have, you

51:01

know, like it or not, there

51:03

just is a significant

51:06

interest in learning about

51:08

crime. Let me ask you

51:10

this, Rexi Berman has also not been convicted.

51:13

So under those

51:15

circumstances, how could a son

51:17

of Sam law, if there was one, I think

51:20

there are to some degree in New York,

51:22

if he's not convicted yet, how could that work?

51:26

Yeah, that's a very good question. One

51:28

of the most sacrosanct of all principles

51:30

in our law is our innocent until

51:32

proven guilty. So yeah, I'd have to

51:34

look at the text of the statute

51:36

to see how I

51:38

don't think it could technically apply. People

51:41

are really up in arms over it. It's

51:43

somewhat analogous to the outrage over

51:45

the Westboro Baptist Church. That's

51:48

the group that would go around and protest

51:50

in military funerals, and they would

51:52

hold up the most awful signs, anti-gay

51:54

and lesbian signs and essentially say that

51:57

God is killing our soldiers because the

51:59

United States. of America condones

52:01

homosexuality. About the most

52:03

hateful speech that one

52:05

could imagine. And there

52:08

was a case that was filed by the

52:10

father of a slain Marine, the name of

52:12

the case is Snyder versus Felt, it was

52:14

decided by the Supreme Court in 2011. And

52:18

the Supreme Court upheld the Fourth

52:20

Circuit's reversal of a million dollar

52:22

judgment verdict, jury verdict given to

52:24

the father. Chief

52:26

Justice Roberts wrote the opinion, it was eight

52:29

to one and again, you'd have to check

52:31

the exact language, I'll try to get it

52:33

closed. But he said something ineffective, speech is

52:35

powerful, it can move us to both tears

52:37

of great joy and great sorrow. And

52:40

we may react to that pain

52:42

by punishing speaker for his harmful,

52:45

hurtful speech. But as a nation,

52:47

we have chosen a different course. And

52:49

that is to protect even harmful, hurtful

52:51

speech when it touches on matters of

52:54

public concern. And that

52:56

is an enduring First Amendment lesson that

52:59

I think people need to

53:01

appreciate. When

53:06

we started this research, I definitely thought Son

53:08

of Sam laws were more robust. But

53:11

clearly that hasn't been the case since at least 1991. We

53:15

can have discussions on the moral

53:17

and ethical implications of murder abelia, but

53:20

legally, it's all fair game. Rex

53:23

Huerman writing letters, others selling those

53:25

letters, fair game. Asa

53:27

Ellerup signing a million dollar documentary

53:30

deal, fair game. Does

53:32

it feel wrong that killers or their

53:35

families could profit off of crimes and

53:37

the victims get victimized again? Absolutely.

53:41

But the alternative of

53:43

broad censorship is also scary.

53:46

So we weighed these strange waters. If

53:50

you would like to contribute to our story,

53:52

or if you know Rex Huerman, please send

53:55

an email to us at

53:57

[email protected]. You

54:00

can contact me directly on

54:02

Instagram at Alexis Linkletter. Unraveled

54:06

is produced by Joke Productions 4ID. The

54:09

executive producers and writers of this

54:11

podcast are Joke Finciun, Biagio Messina,

54:14

and myself, Alexis Linkletter. Executive

54:17

producer for ID is Jessica Lauther. Our

54:20

editor is Kaitlin Cleveland. Lisa

54:22

Rivikoff is our associate producer. The

54:25

music and score that you've heard in this podcast

54:27

is by Biagio Messina. Subscribe on

54:29

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54:36

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54:38

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