0:01

It's the latest turn in a battle by Montgomery

0:04

County Prosecutor John McCarthy to

0:06

get Hoggle declared competent

0:08

to stand trial, despite doctor's

0:11

opinions that she's not. Hogel

0:13

has been in a secure state psychiatric

0:15

hospital since the children's disappearance

0:17

in twenty fourteen. Their bodies

0:20

have never been found, and.

0:21

April doctors report at Hogle's competency

0:24

is unrestorable. The state's

0:26

attorney's office has continuously challenged

0:28

this conclusion.

0:30

It's November twenty twenty two,

0:33

and Catherine Hoggle, charged with

0:35

two counts of murder, has been considered

0:37

incompetent for nearly five

0:39

years.

0:40

The Montgomery County community has wondered

0:43

what happened to three year old Sarah

0:45

and two year old Jacob. Their mother,

0:47

thirty six year old Katherine Hoggele, was

0:49

the last person seen with them. She was

0:51

charged with murder after refusing, police

0:54

say to share any information about

0:56

their whereabouts.

0:57

The media following the case has ebbed and

1:00

flowed over the years since the kids disappeared,

1:03

but this week they are back in

1:05

full force. In three days,

1:07

murder charges will be dropped against

1:10

Catherine Hoggele if she is not found

1:12

competent to stand twile this is according

1:14

to state law.

1:25

Hey really

1:27

down to the wire here, huh Yeah.

1:29

Three days of.

1:30

Hearings, Sarah and I

1:32

are catching up with Troy Turner, his

1:34

wife Stephanie, and their friend and lawyer,

1:37

Matt Alleged.

1:38

It's just really overwhelming. I

1:40

don't know.

1:41

I mean, I think she's going to be out.

1:43

I just think she's going to be out, and I.

1:45

Think that's the wrong thing.

1:47

I think that society looks at her as

1:49

a child murderer, and so they're

1:51

like, dude, we'll never let someone like her out.

1:54

But that's just not the way the world

1:56

works.

1:57

My read is that it doesn't look good.

2:02

Over three days, Judge James Bonifront

2:05

has been hearing testimony about

2:07

whether or not Catherine could capably

2:09

assist her attorney in her own defense.

2:13

As part of the state's argument, prosecutors

2:15

asked the judge to go back and watch tapes

2:18

of Catherine during this and prior

2:20

hearings to pay attention to

2:22

her interactions with her attorney, David

2:24

Felson, her attentiveness and

2:26

body language.

2:29

During the cross examination.

2:31

She's sitting there yelling at the attorney,

2:33

pulling him over, pointing at notes telling him

2:35

things.

2:37

The last day she came in, she brought in a piece of

2:39

paper to Felson, handed to him where she had highlighted

2:41

things for him.

2:43

I mean that's where I keep going.

2:44

Well, there has to be at least some chance

2:47

because they were literally doing

2:49

in front of him what they're saying.

2:50

They can't do.

2:53

All right, Well, well

2:55

you really await news and thank

2:58

you for your time again tonight.

2:59

Thanks thanks Bie.

3:08

I'm Beth Carris and this is Unrestorable,

3:11

an original podcast from anonymous

3:14

content and iHeartRadio.

3:28

So doctor Brown, would you please raise your

3:30

right hand and listen to the courtroom clerk.

3:33

Please THEMSLF

3:35

swear or firma the bounties a perjurb that the response

3:38

is giving us think it's maybe the whole truth or nothing but the

3:40

truth.

3:41

He thank you.

3:44

This is the hearing Troy has been pushing

3:47

for for more than eight years.

3:49

He wants Catherine questioned by a

3:52

judge, her competency examined

3:54

by a court outside of

3:56

what he sees as her protectors at

3:58

Perkins. He's been trying

4:00

to convince anyone who will listen that

4:03

Catherine needs to be held accountable.

4:07

This competency hearing is his last

4:10

chance. If she is yet again

4:12

determined to be not competent to stand

4:14

trial, the murder charges

4:16

will be dismissed in advance of

4:18

the December first deadline, and

4:21

Troy's determination to have her charged

4:23

with his children's murders will be defeated.

4:26

Maybe for good.

4:29

Doctor Stationer, informing Adam

4:32

Brown, thank you.

4:35

Doctor Adam Brown, a psychiatrist

4:37

at Clipton T. Perkins Psychiatric

4:39

Hospital, is the doctor who most

4:41

recently evaluated Catherine and

4:44

concluded she was incompetent.

4:49

When you conducted your evaluation of miss Hovell.

4:52

What diagnosis did.

4:53

You confirm, doctor Brown, is

4:55

being questioned by David Felson, Catherine's

4:58

attorney.

5:00

I confirm the diagnosis of schizophrenia

5:03

any other diagnosis. She

5:06

also has diagnoses of a major depressive

5:08

disorder and generalized anxiety disorder.

5:11

And are the psychotic related

5:13

manifestations concerning that diagnosis,

5:17

Yes, there are.

5:18

Can you explain to the court what is psychosis?

5:22

So in a general sin psychosis

5:24

is the main product of schizophrenia's

5:27

kind of the syndroom that schizophrenia produces,

5:30

so generally that in a nutshell

5:32

is disconnection from reality and one

5:35

or more ways you know, they're

5:37

commonly understood disconnects

5:40

are auditory hallucinations

5:42

or visual hallucination.

5:45

Someone with psychosis, as

5:47

you've described, says it manifests

5:49

itself with miss Hoggle. Can

5:52

they answer questions like who's

5:55

the judge? What the charges are against

5:57

you? In other words, what we've been calling sort

5:59

of the prong one question.

6:02

Yes, they can, As in

6:05

my report, in some of the examples of

6:07

miss Hoggle answering those questions, she

6:10

might initially answer the question correctly, albeit

6:13

maybe superficially. It is just kind of a

6:15

generalization for most of her responses during

6:17

my assessment, But then she would

6:19

derail, as a term used for it.

6:22

She would move on to another topic

6:24

that was either loosely related

6:26

or.

6:26

Not related at all to the prior question.

6:28

So, even when she answered the question

6:30

appropriately, if allowed to continue to

6:33

remove very far our way from

6:35

the response.

6:36

That was needed.

6:40

This question of derailing is key

6:42

to the insistence that Catherine is not competent

6:45

to assist counsel. That while

6:47

she might, upon superficial examination

6:50

appear capable and aware, that

6:53

appearance masks a highly disoriented

6:55

core that prevents her from grappling

6:57

with anything beyond the most basic question.

7:01

From what doctor Brown describes, she

7:03

just isn't capable of providing the kind

7:05

of complex information required

7:08

to defend herself against murder charges,

7:11

information like alibi witnesses and

7:13

exculpatory evidence. But

7:15

for the prosecution, the question isn't

7:18

one of Catherine's capacities. It's

7:20

what she's willing and unwilling to do.

7:23

And this is the tag Assistant State's Attorney

7:25

Ryan Wexler takes as she cross

7:27

examines doctor Brown.

7:31

It's certainly possible that

7:35

Miss Hoggle is making

7:37

a choice to derail

7:41

because she doesn't want to answer questions about

7:43

her case.

7:44

That's possible, isn't it.

7:46

It's possible, but I don't think that's what's

7:49

going on.

7:51

You heard mister Turner

7:53

testify last

7:55

week, right, and

7:58

that he testified that Miss

8:00

Hoggle told him that she was

8:02

advised to stay incompetent.

8:05

I call that.

8:05

Yes, Troy

8:07

Turner isn't the only person who has noted

8:10

that Catherine has expressed interest in remaining

8:12

incompetent. Another psychiatrist

8:15

at Perkins, doctor Christian Tullibson,

8:18

also examined Catherine.

8:21

And were you also

8:24

aware that in doctor Tollisson's

8:26

report when doctor

8:29

Tollison talked to Miss Hoggle.

8:31

Miss Hoggel told her she did not

8:34

want to become competent. Were you aware

8:36

of that?

8:37

No, I've not read doctor Tullison's report.

8:42

That if miss Hoggle

8:45

stays incompetent, her

8:47

case will be dismissed by

8:49

the court.

8:50

Right sure, Doctor

8:54

Brown was a witness for Catherine's side.

8:57

Doctor Tullison was called by the state.

9:00

You know, competency is in

9:02

the moment, it's in the here and now, But

9:05

it's also a question of their

9:08

capacity to be competent.

9:11

So we're

9:14

looking at somebody's underlying

9:17

abilities to sort of

9:19

rise to the occasion.

9:20

You know, can they.

9:22

You know, can they pull themselves together if

9:25

they have to? So

9:27

I'm looking I'm looking at the how

9:29

you know, like, what what have they been doing in

9:31

the past. How does that

9:35

affect their ability to,

9:38

you know, be able to pull themselves together at

9:40

certain times for their court proceedings.

9:45

Is there a difference between capacity

9:48

and willingness to become confident?

9:51

In your opinions, plenty

9:55

of defendants are fully

9:57

capable of being competent, But will

10:00

you know, exhibit all sorts of symptoms in

10:02

order to.

10:03

Not be competent?

10:08

Doctor Tellibson was also questioned about

10:11

whether doctor Brown's assessment was sufficient.

10:14

He spent ninety minutes with Catherine, and

10:16

that was seven months prior to this hearing.

10:20

In the course of a normal evaluation

10:22

for competency, would you feel comfortable

10:25

announcing an opinion relative to competency

10:28

if you had not seen the patient for seven

10:30

months.

10:33

I could talk about what I thought

10:36

the defendant.

10:38

Was like seven months ago.

10:40

But you

10:42

know, sometimes it depends on the

10:44

defendant.

10:45

Because I've

10:48

certainly had patients or

10:50

defendants at Clifton

10:52

T. Perkins who were exactly the

10:54

same from year to year to year,

10:56

and so you know, seven

10:58

months.

10:59

Is not going to make that much of a difference.

11:00

But when you have a

11:03

defendant or a patient who is doing.

11:06

Education trials, or situations

11:09

changing, or things are revolving in their

11:11

case, then you would want to revisit

11:14

them right before their court

11:16

appearments.

11:18

If there was evidence in

11:20

the records that you were examining

11:23

that suggested that

11:26

the defendant that you were evaluating refused

11:29

to answer questions that were asked of

11:31

them because they were following

11:33

the advice of their counsel

11:35

not to answer the question. Would

11:38

you consider that in terms of competency.

11:41

I think that would be evidence of their ability

11:43

to work with their.

11:44

Attorney

11:58

up to this point. After new where is hearings,

12:01

dozens of reports, years in a

12:03

psychiatric hospital. What we

12:05

know about Catherine we know through

12:07

others. This hearing would

12:09

bring something different to the table.

12:14

What are your name?

12:15

Happened Ashley Hackel?

12:17

This hearing would have a judge ask

12:19

Catherine questions directly.

12:23

Thank you? How old are you? Thirty

12:25

six? What's your birthday?

12:28

Eleven thirteen eighty six? Do

12:36

you know what evidence is?

12:38

Yes, sir, mat

12:41

don't want you tell me anything about circumstances

12:44

in this case, but generally, what

12:46

is evidence?

12:49

Something that makes things,

12:55

something that's used for a case,

12:59

good or bad.

13:01

When someone is charged with

13:03

crime, should

13:06

they talk to an attorney?

13:08

I'm not sure.

13:12

When prosecutors pushed the judge to question

13:14

Catherine, they submitted more than

13:16

a hundred questions they suggested

13:18

he use to assess her competency.

13:22

Do you know what attorneys do?

13:24

Yes, sir?

13:25

Tell me what attorneys.

13:26

Do they

13:29

prosecute or defend station?

13:32

I mean a client?

13:36

What should an attorney know.

13:42

What happened at the alleged

13:44

crime?

13:46

Catherine isn't under oath, and this isn't

13:48

a criminal trial, but the consequences

13:51

our major. If the court upholds

13:53

the repeated conclusions of incompetency

13:56

by the doctors at Perkins, then

13:58

the charges will be dismissed.

14:02

Is there anything else that they should know?

14:07

I can't think of anything right now. I'm

14:10

not very good at public speaking.

14:15

Have you ever heard of the phrase attorney

14:17

client privilege? Yes, sir, what

14:21

do you think that means?

14:24

It's private conversation

14:26

with you and your attorney?

14:30

Okay, thank you very much, man,

14:32

thank you.

14:34

And then it was over. The

14:42

interaction you just heard isn't a

14:44

small clip of the exchange between Catherine

14:47

and the judge. It's the sum of

14:49

his questions for her, eleven

14:51

questions in total. Even

14:53

More, each of his questions appeared related

14:56

to the first prong of competency, that

14:58

she understands the sys and charges

15:01

and proceedings, something her lawyer

15:03

has already conceded. It

15:07

was impossible to guess what Judge Bonifront

15:09

would do with this information. What

15:11

he saw when he looked at Catherine Hoggle

15:14

slightly slumped in her seat, what

15:17

he heard when she answered his questions

15:19

capably, Though, not without

15:21

some hesitance and with a certain

15:23

childlike simplicity. Were

15:26

these the answers of a woman who couldn't

15:28

see through a fog of mental illness?

15:31

Were they the words of a woman who has been scheming,

15:34

manipulating, lingering, and ultimately

15:36

prevailing over any number

15:38

of medical professionals for the last

15:41

eight years. Everyone

15:43

in the courtroom listened intently, but

15:46

maybe most of all was Troy.

15:49

He was sitting just feet away, closely

15:52

watching every move, clocking

15:54

every statement. Catherine made a

15:57

slow reel of eight years of

15:59

surreal history flashing

16:01

through his mind. But

16:03

all Troy could do was wait for the afternoon

16:06

of November thirtieth, twenty twenty two,

16:09

when Judge Bonavent delivered his decision.

16:13

All right, thank

16:16

you, everyone, Please have a scene. All

16:22

right, everyone.

16:23

The first issue before the court

16:26

is whether the defendant, Catherine Hoggele, is presently

16:28

common.

16:29

To stand trial.

16:32

If the judge decides that Catherine is

16:34

competent, contradicting the

16:36

repeated findings of several doctors

16:38

at Perkins, then she will be arraigned

16:41

on murder charges in the deaths of

16:43

Jacob and Sarah, setting up

16:45

a rare no body double homicide

16:48

prosecution.

16:50

Pursuant to an indictment handed down September

16:53

fourteen, twenty seventeen. Defendant

16:55

faces two counts of murder. The

16:58

defendant is charged with first two murder of

17:00

her two children, Sarah and Jacob.

17:07

The court does not find the state has met its

17:10

burdened beyond a reasonable doubt in

17:12

light of the fact that has now been five years

17:14

since the first finding of dependence and competency.

17:17

Count one and two of the indictment are dismissed.

17:21

And with that the murder charges against

17:24

Catherine Hoggele are gone.

17:27

The court finds the defendant meets their criteria

17:29

for involuntary confinement. Prestuan

17:31

to Section three one O sixty

17:33

one.

17:35

Catherine will not be released. She

17:38

will be remanded to Perkins until

17:41

she's deemed no longer a threat to herself

17:43

or others, but she will be outside

17:46

of the purview of the criminal justice system.

17:49

Now she's just another patient.

17:52

She has been diagnosed with schizophrenia, major

17:55

depressive disorder, and general anxiety

17:57

disorder. She suffers from chronics

18:00

symptoms of impaired judgment, poor insight,

18:02

paranoia, and disorganized thinking. Without

18:05

the structure and stability of a hospital setting,

18:08

she would be a danger to herself for others. Given

18:10

the limited insight into illness

18:12

and her desire to discontinue her medications,

18:16

she is unwilling and unable to sign

18:18

a voluntary treatment

18:20

agreement. There is no less restrictive

18:23

environment that is consistent with her welfare

18:25

and safety.

18:28

After the judge is finished delivering his decision,

18:30

he invites Troy to speak to the court.

18:34

Mister turneres, sir, thank you.

18:37

After taking a moment to collect himself,

18:40

Troy stands. He's wearing

18:42

a t shirt with Sarah and Jacob's pictures

18:44

on it. Sarah and Jacob are smiling

18:47

sweetly at the camera, maybe

18:49

at their dad.

18:51

This is a travesty, and

18:53

my kids are gone.

18:55

She's gone, going with her lafe. My

18:58

kids don't have one.

19:00

They were two and three when they were taken, and

19:03

everything that they were ever going to be or accomplished.

19:06

Is taken from them by her.

19:08

And now I have to sit here and listen to charges

19:10

to get dropped, and her rights

19:12

are being talented.

19:14

Where are my kids rights? Where

19:16

are the children advice to be safe? Where's anyone's

19:18

rights? And this whole.

19:20

System other than a criminal

19:22

like her and I'm

19:24

telling you right now, I'm

19:27

not disregarding that she is mentally ill. I

19:29

know that I personally have had her committed. But

19:32

what I can tell you is there was a lot of lies told in this

19:34

court, none of them by me, but.

19:38

That has all now prevailed. I

19:41

do appreciate you. I don't mean any disrespect

19:43

to you or your sport.

19:45

But the system's broken and it's got to change.

19:48

Thank you.

19:56

A little while later, the state's attorney

19:58

held a press conference in front of the courthouse.

20:02

Thank you.

20:03

My name is John McCarthy. I'm a states attorney from Montgomery

20:05

County. The charges were dismissed against

20:07

her today by Judge Bonifitt

20:10

in court about five minutes ago,

20:14

but there still remains several important points

20:16

for the community to know about this matter. Missago

20:20

will not be free in the community, as

20:23

we just witnessed a few minutes ago. She

20:26

will be involuntarily committed

20:29

by an order assigned by this judge because

20:32

she remains a danger to herself for others.

20:35

She is committed by court.

20:36

Order today today

20:40

we have the right to recharge.

20:43

There is no double jeopardy

20:46

that applies here.

20:47

This is not a double jeopardy situation, the

20:50

state has the right to recharge.

20:54

I will tell you, as

20:56

long as I'm state's attorney, it would be my

20:58

intent, if she is

21:00

a judge, to be safe to we turned

21:03

to the community, the circumstances

21:05

would be such that we would recharge

21:07

her, even if we

21:09

have to revisit the issue of competency again.

21:12

My personal hope is that we

21:16

will not have justice ultimately

21:18

denied but merely delayed.

21:31

The next day, Sarah and I jumped

21:33

on a plane and headed to Maryland.

21:41

Next time Unrestorable, we

21:44

dive into the biggest remaining

21:46

question what happened

21:48

to Sarah and Jacob, as

21:51

far.

21:51

As where their bodies are as a mystery, as far as

21:53

what.

21:53

Happened, who took them, who did it?

21:56

There's no mystery there.

21:58

When we first got as she had dirt under

22:00

her fingernails, like it.

22:02

Looks like she was in the bloods.

22:04

So there's still a part of

22:06

me that thinks, hey, they're still out there and maybe

22:08

we.

22:08

Just passed on.

22:12

Unrestorable is executive produced

22:14

and hosted by me Beth Carris and

22:16

Sarah Trelevin. Our story

22:18

editor is Kathleen Goldhar. Mixing

22:21

and sound designed by Mitchell Stewart

22:23

for Anonymous content. Jessica Grimshaw

22:26

is our executive producer, Jennifer

22:28

Sears is our executive in charge of production,

22:31

and Nick Yaniez is our legal council.

22:34

For iHeart executive producer Christina

22:36

Everett and supervising producer Abu

22:38

Zapfhar