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these girls were sent out into

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1:30

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1:37

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2:06

and from Tenderfoot TV, this is to

2:09

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2:12

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2:18

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2:20

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2:25

scary stories. Scary stories kind

2:27

of like these. World-hood

2:29

and sliver of light, footsteps in the foot

2:32

of my bed, same as always. They had

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2:36

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2:39

If you like to listen to podcasts with a lot

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2:47

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3:01

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3:29

From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta, I'm

3:32

your host Payne Lindsey, and this is

3:34

Up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun. Hey,

3:41

it's Payne here. Today we're doing an

3:43

episode that's a little bit different than we've

3:45

done this season. It felt

3:48

like it was a good time to sit

3:50

back and sort of analyze what we've recently

3:52

heard pertaining to Oregon John

3:55

and break down in the studio

3:57

with some of the producers on this show. takeaways

4:00

were from my conversation with

4:02

him. Since the

4:04

very beginning we've heard Oregon John's

4:07

name and slowly

4:09

but surely we learned more and

4:11

more information about this person and

4:14

when I was finally able to see this

4:16

person face-to-face and ask

4:18

him some of these questions, in a

4:20

lot of ways his answers spawned

4:23

even more questions. I'm

4:26

in the studio today with Mike

4:29

Roney, Dylan Harrington and Cooper Skinner

4:31

who are all producers here at Tenderfoot

4:33

and they were there in the bar

4:36

when we had this conversation with them.

4:38

And today we're going to do something

4:41

a little out of the box, out of the ordinary

4:43

in terms of a traditional up

4:45

and vanished episode but I

4:47

feel like it's very important

4:50

to break this kind of stuff down before

4:52

we get even deeper into the story. And

4:55

I kind of want to hear the

4:58

perspectives of even our own producers here

5:01

on what their takeaways were. We

5:04

were all for there when

5:06

we were tracking John down which

5:09

was a journey of its own and

5:12

I remember vividly landing an anchorage that

5:14

one night and at that point in

5:17

time the plan was to

5:20

fly the next morning to Kodiak, Alaska

5:23

but that quickly changed whenever I was

5:25

messaging him from my fake Facebook and learned

5:27

that hey he's not going to be there. And

5:30

so we kind of had to think on our

5:32

feet and decide if we were

5:34

going to pivot and go try to talk to

5:36

him right now and two, who was going to

5:38

do it? Me or

5:41

my fake Facebook guy? What

5:43

was your guys take on just sort of

5:45

when the plan started changing and us having

5:48

to create something

5:51

new out of seemingly nothing? Yeah

5:53

I mean this one this one was tough. I

5:55

think it was tougher than anything else we've done

5:58

because I've been working with you since... Up

6:00

in Vantage season 2 and we've

6:02

had times where we're like, hey let's try and

6:04

corner this guy or let's try and talk to

6:06

this guy or meet up with this guy and

6:08

this one was like, we couldn't

6:10

get close enough where we were like, kinda

6:12

there and then we just go and

6:14

we get there in an hour or something like this

6:16

like this was a long trek to get to where

6:18

he was Kodiak, how long of a

6:21

flight was that? and then how long

6:23

of a flight we ended up taking and it

6:25

could have gone disastrously if we

6:27

went to Kodiak I know you talk

6:29

about that but like if we went there and he's not

6:31

there so we really had to make

6:33

sure on this and it was there was no

6:36

way to really make sure until

6:38

you got to a point where you were talking to him

6:40

about that and my biggest fear

6:42

the whole time was whether

6:44

or not he was going to be

6:46

on that boat because everything else lined

6:48

up perfectly we could see his exact

6:50

schedule that was posted publicly online it

6:53

almost just felt too easy or something all

6:56

was going to work out perfectly unless

6:58

for whatever reason he was not going to be

7:00

on that boat and just out

7:02

of my own paranoia I had messaged him again

7:04

that night and we learned that he wasn't going

7:06

to be but then it kinda changed the

7:08

dynamics of what we were doing in the first

7:11

place because the plan originally was for me to find

7:13

out where he was going to be and he was

7:15

going to hopefully step off the

7:17

ship and walk down that dock and

7:19

I would just be there waiting for him

7:22

and just say, hey I'm Payne Lindsey I want

7:24

to talk to you about Florence Oculpioli's disappearance but

7:27

that changed rapidly as we had more

7:29

and more conversations about it and

7:32

we ultimately decided that if we want

7:34

to figure out what happened if we

7:36

want to actually get closer to that

7:39

then we're going to have to do something out of

7:41

the ordinary here and leaning into

7:43

what was already happening and kind of

7:45

organically evolving and growing

7:47

with John talking to this fake

7:49

person on Facebook it

7:52

was a risk that I

7:54

felt like could maybe

7:56

yield more information and I

7:58

remember the just walking

8:00

into the living room of the Airbnb and

8:03

looking at YouCooper, and

8:05

that clip is in there in the podcast.

8:08

I go, I'm not from here. You,

8:11

you're from Alaska. And

8:13

you're looking at me like, Oh God. But

8:15

at the same time, you're like, Hey, actually, what what's going

8:17

on in your head when I said that? Yeah.

8:19

I mean, I was right there with you. Like, it

8:22

took a while to get to the location. You

8:24

know, flights are really bumpy. Everyone's tired. And

8:26

then we all throw

8:28

our bags down, you know, and then we looked at each other

8:31

and like, all right, like the journey's

8:33

over. And now the next one's about to begin. I

8:36

mean, I said something

8:38

along the lines of, uh, you

8:40

know, talk about a big favor. Like me

8:42

asking, me asking you to pretend

8:45

to be this other person was,

8:48

I put it, I think a big favor

8:50

to ask you. Yeah. Um, but

8:53

you were, you were on board pretty immediately. So

8:56

I just kind of want to talk about why,

9:00

for those of you who don't know, Cooper

9:02

is our sound engineer and

9:04

does all the sound design, does all

9:06

the mixing and mastering of the episodes.

9:09

And he's also been been on the

9:11

ground as part of Up and Vanished

9:14

since season three traveling with

9:16

us and doing a lot of investigative

9:18

work with us. When we're in Alaska,

9:21

I would imagine this was the first

9:23

time you'd done something quite like this. And

9:26

why'd you decide to just jump on the world like that?

9:30

Well, I mean, of course, I had the edge because I

9:32

grew up in Alaska. So I had

9:35

the power of just like general casual conversation. If

9:37

it came up, I wasn't just like a fish

9:39

out of the water, you know, I could just

9:41

kind of like fiddle my way through the conversation.

9:43

If things got weird or I can bring up,

9:45

you know, this and that about the culture. So

9:48

that's why I thought, you know, it was a good

9:50

idea. It was your idea that we kind of both

9:53

collaborated where one of us was kind

9:55

of leading the ship and then the other one could

9:57

throw an effect here and there just to, you know,

9:59

calm things down. weird. And

10:01

you're from Alaska. Yeah. And also

10:03

from a tiny town in Alaska,

10:05

even smaller than Nome. Tell

10:08

us about that actually, because that's pretty unique in

10:10

itself. Yeah, I

10:12

mean that's probably another reason why I

10:14

was just comfortable talking to someone like John,

10:17

because you know the place I grew up

10:19

in is very similar to Nome. It's called

10:21

McGrath, Alaska. They're like an

10:23

Alaska native village. It's got a couple hundred

10:25

people who live there. You

10:28

know, most of the population there is native

10:30

Alaskan, but you got all sorts of characters

10:32

that live there. You know, it has a

10:34

lot of similarities to Nome. You

10:36

know, it has a lot of the same

10:38

culture and a lot of the same architecture.

10:40

Places like Nome and McGrath are preserved, you

10:42

know, in a very special way since it's

10:44

so remote. You know, people who live

10:47

in these kind of locations, they learn

10:49

very quickly how to keep things running and,

10:51

you know, use the land to

10:53

their benefits. I felt

10:55

very confident that I would pick

10:58

up on some of his memorisms

11:00

or storytelling aspects of the

11:02

town or other small towns around

11:04

Nome. So I just had a

11:06

lot of backup, so that's why I felt like a

11:08

little confident going in, but of course, you know, it

11:11

was crazy at the same time. So we

11:15

quickly conjure up plan B and

11:18

we immediately hop on another

11:20

flight, and we've already been on three

11:22

flights at this point. And

11:25

this day was gloomy, to

11:27

say the least. It was windy,

11:29

it was cold, it was raining,

11:32

and it was just completely uncomfortable

11:34

moving around. And we're touching down

11:36

in Ketchikan. And I've been communicating with

11:39

Oregon John pretty much every

11:41

15-30 minutes that day.

11:43

And I decided to tell him that I

11:46

was going to be landing a little bit

11:48

later than we really were. One,

11:51

because he had offered to pick me up from the airport

11:53

and we weren't going to do that. And

11:56

I didn't want him to be around there or see

11:58

when I landed if I gave him a chance. him

12:00

the honest answer and I also wanted to go

12:02

find a place that we could

12:04

be at and potentially talk

12:06

to him that we've already scouted

12:09

out that is quiet enough that

12:11

isn't doesn't have some

12:13

DJ karaoke night going on and

12:15

that we felt was a safe place to

12:18

talk to him and so when

12:20

we touched down we immediately

12:22

checked in to the Airbnb and

12:25

within that hour we were suiting

12:27

up and pulling out our equipment

12:30

and I guess Dylan and Mike kind of talked to

12:32

me about next steps after we

12:34

landed it was a

12:37

long way to get to even

12:39

catch can itself from the airport right like

12:41

it was a long flight but then you had

12:44

to get on a ferry go across the water

12:46

to actually get to the town we

12:48

didn't know anything there was no uber we

12:50

had to call taxis one taxi wasn't

12:52

enough for both of us in all of our cases so we

12:54

had to call a second cat taxi

12:56

and it ended up being the same taxi

12:59

that took you guys to the place

13:01

we were going and then yeah it was

13:03

a bit of a scramble to get everything together

13:05

but I think you know we've done this enough

13:07

that it wasn't terrible to get it together I

13:09

I will say that I'm not super

13:12

jealous of Cooper being from Alaska I'm pretty

13:14

thankful he's from Alaska so he was the

13:16

one who was right next to you talking

13:18

to him and I got to

13:21

kind of stand back a little bit with Dylan

13:23

and I know Cooper's also had his

13:25

his moments like in season three when

13:28

he was talking to her when he

13:30

was in the car while you were

13:32

talking to V dog yeah if you

13:34

remember season three when I met his

13:36

nickname was V dog it was

13:38

Cooper and I that flew out there to Great Falls

13:41

Montana and then drove about another

13:44

hour outside of that town and

13:46

just popped up on him knocked

13:49

on his door and

13:51

that was a spooky moment because we

13:53

finally got to the property you know

13:55

we had like a general address but we didn't

13:58

know what the house looked like There's

14:00

no Google Maps. There's no, you know,

14:02

Street View. And it was literally

14:05

up this big, huge hill that was

14:07

bumpy. And we're, thank God, we're in

14:09

an SUV. And the first

14:12

thing that comes through our mind is that

14:15

there's no quick escaping of this place. You're

14:17

going to have to go six miles an hour down

14:19

this hill to leave. Um, but

14:21

if you remember season three, when I talked to

14:23

this guy named V-Dog, it was a very brief

14:26

conversation. He didn't have much to say, but

14:28

I don't think he made himself look very good either. And

14:31

actually since then, he's been arrested

14:33

by the FBI on other

14:35

charges, but clearly they've been keeping an eye on

14:38

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15:43

But yeah, so Cooper's been in situations

15:45

like that before, where it's

15:48

nerve wracking. And I

15:51

think that my main goal

15:53

was to sort of pad my existence there one on one face.

16:00

to face with John as much as I possibly

16:02

could. And even

16:04

down to just the subtleties of two

16:07

people talking and us looking back and forth, so

16:09

I can even get a chance to

16:11

look at him at all and reset and

16:13

think of a question. You have to remember

16:16

when we went into this, we

16:18

were going under the guise of being interested

16:21

in this job that he has.

16:24

And we couldn't just jump right

16:26

to Nome, Alaska

16:29

and dig into the

16:32

details of a

16:34

missing person's case without

16:36

looking super suspicious unless

16:39

we really slowly worked our

16:41

way there. And fortunate

16:43

enough for us, he was pretty

16:46

open and he just started

16:48

talking about his past and it

16:50

wasn't very long before Nome, Alaska came

16:52

up on its own organically and Cooper

16:55

and I had talked beforehand that if

16:57

he brings it up, we need to

16:59

say we've been there before and

17:02

create a conversation about that. And

17:05

once we started talking about Nome, Alaska

17:08

and we got into Flo's

17:10

disappearance and why he

17:12

left there, that's really when he said

17:14

some of the biggest and most important things

17:16

I think he said in that conversation. And

17:19

I kind of want to just unpack some of

17:21

those. When we were

17:24

all there in the moment, it's kind

17:26

of hard to completely digest

17:28

it as you're

17:31

hearing it because I'm

17:33

simultaneously focused on making

17:35

sure I don't blow this somehow.

17:38

And when he said stuff

17:40

like there's a podcast about

17:43

this case and there's a podcaster,

17:45

in that moment, I

17:47

legitimately thought, well jigs

17:49

up, right? And I

17:53

either show that on my face or we double

17:55

down right now. And I just

17:57

double down and tried to ask more about

18:00

it and played stupid but

18:02

to me personally

18:06

he offered up a lot of information

18:08

and detail that I'd

18:10

never heard of before and

18:13

if anything it makes him

18:15

in a more solid way the

18:17

last person to be

18:19

with her and not

18:22

only just with her but in his own

18:24

words with her all night and

18:27

we can play a clip of that and yeah

18:29

yeah she passed out and in the morning I woke up

18:31

she was gone but left her shoes in her phone. He

18:35

mentions that they went to sleep and

18:38

when he woke up in the morning she was

18:40

gone. He also mentioned that

18:42

she wanted a place to sleep it off

18:45

which based on your interpretation of that you

18:47

know either she was really tired or

18:51

one could speculate that she

18:53

was inebriated right. We've

18:55

all been through this tape we were all there when we heard

18:58

it the first time but from

19:00

you guys what are your

19:02

biggest takeaways from some of the statements that

19:04

Oregon John made in that bar? Well

19:07

I think for one him

19:10

basically stating exactly what was left

19:12

in his tent the morning

19:14

after when she supposedly left his tent. I

19:17

think that's important because that that whole

19:19

thing was a little sketchy for me

19:21

how we even learned about or how

19:24

the family even learned about how he

19:26

had the items how he returned the

19:28

items to Blair Florence his sister and

19:31

just that whole story seemed very

19:33

strange to me like why was

19:35

there not much follow-up here? He

19:38

just gave these items over to somebody

19:41

when they came in question them because

19:43

somebody saw her or there's rumor that

19:45

she went back to his tent went

19:48

to West Beach and he's

19:50

just handing over her items in the morning and

19:52

it's like I would love to

19:54

just see that that exchange

19:56

and see him hand

19:58

over these belongings of Somebody

20:00

who is never going to show up again.

20:02

Maybe nobody knew that at the time Obviously

20:04

no one expected that at the time But

20:06

like what what was he like in that

20:08

moment? And I've always you know

20:10

we've always heard we've heard the tape

20:13

of people saying that he handed over

20:15

these items But now we

20:17

have him saying it specifically and what

20:19

the items are and that's unprompted He

20:21

just said that out of nowhere like

20:23

yeah We were talking about Gnome or

20:25

you guys were talking about gnome or

20:27

Florence and the missing girl or however

20:30

it was phrased But he brought this

20:32

up he brought up what was handed

20:34

over to whoever and I

20:36

just thought that was very interesting I mean,

20:38

that's like hard evidence of okay He

20:41

also has said in the tape because people

20:43

think I'm the last one to see her

20:45

right okay And then you're also

20:47

handing over her belongings the last belongings we

20:49

can find that were on her that night

20:52

Well, he actually he he literally

20:54

says because I was the last person to

20:56

see her alive Besides

20:59

the person who killed her right and I thought

21:02

he said it twice he does say it twice

21:04

He says it another time where he says like

21:06

they think or maybe he's talking about

21:08

they think I did it They think I'm the one

21:10

who did it when he said he couldn't return to

21:12

the town I might be mixing those up, but yeah,

21:14

that's super interesting that he he's saying he was the

21:16

last one to see her But then like I don't

21:19

know where she just left in the middle night when

21:21

I was sleeping It's like then maybe

21:23

you weren't the last one to hear. What are you talking about?

21:25

How do you know that for sure that you were the last

21:27

one to see her? That's the strange thing to say Apparently

21:30

also knows that the last person she was with

21:33

is the person who killed her and she

21:35

was put in this barrel under a meth

21:38

dealers house But the way

21:40

that he describes who this person

21:42

may be who she was last with who killed

21:44

her kind of changes and

21:47

shifts a little bit throughout our

21:49

conversation and We

21:51

can play some some clips of that too

21:53

They found her buried under the dude's house

21:55

the med dealer who's also a search rescue

21:57

diver for the police I

22:00

was the last person that seen her a lot. Decides

22:03

the guy that killed her. And the girl

22:05

come and hung out in my tent one night and she

22:07

walked off somewhere and somebody kidnapped her and murdered her. So

22:10

the guy who fucking really did it, did he get

22:12

caught or did he fuck anyone? Good.

22:15

But I still got family members calling

22:17

me. They actually were doing a podcast and

22:19

tried to get ahold of me. He

22:22

mentioned something about a search and rescue guy. And

22:25

then he mentioned something about this meth

22:27

dealer. Did

22:30

you know that dude who did it? No, never

22:32

met him. He was friends

22:34

with her. They conspired

22:36

together. The

22:39

thing is up there is why would you need a

22:41

killer girl? They put out like crazy. Then

22:44

he brings up at one point that the

22:47

Nome police are corrupt and they're the ones

22:49

who were also in on it. And he

22:51

starts describing for a second about

22:53

how a Nome police officer raped and

22:55

killed somebody before. Nome

22:58

is corrupt. You have no idea. Three times in

23:00

the last 12 years the law enforcement department has

23:02

been shut down and taken over by the feds.

23:05

They are so corrupt up there, dude. It's crazy. One

23:07

of the police officers was raping and murdering all the

23:10

girls. Yeah, I heard that. And

23:13

he was basically loosely describing the murder

23:15

of Sonya Ivanoff from two decades ago

23:17

that we had briefly touched on earlier

23:19

in the season. Yeah, which is super

23:21

weird to me because it's like it

23:23

didn't seem like he was unclear or

23:25

hazy about what happened that night. It

23:28

kind of seemed like he had a

23:30

really good memory of what was going

23:32

on that night and what, you know,

23:34

that whole time period. He seems to

23:36

remember pretty well. And then certain things

23:38

like that where he's like tricking in

23:40

Matthew Owens, the police officer who the

23:43

known police officer who did murder someone like 17

23:45

or 20 years ago before that. You

23:48

can almost take that as he's possibly

23:50

muddying the waters there. Like what is he

23:53

doing? Why is he suddenly not remembering these

23:55

facts? And I know you might not remember

23:57

every fact of everything, but like who did

24:00

it? and where they found the body is

24:02

like a very important thing you wouldn't remember

24:04

wrong. That's a strange thing

24:06

to remember wrong, but you remember what items

24:08

you handed over to the people looking for

24:10

her, and you remember her

24:12

leaving, and you remember the night

24:14

before, but you vaguely remember how

24:16

it ended. Like that

24:19

doesn't seem, you're gonna remember if

24:21

there was a whole search and they found a

24:23

barrel under somebody's house. That's gonna stick

24:25

in, but he seemed very non-committal to those

24:27

details, but he was saying them openly again.

24:30

He's also the only person who's saying

24:33

anything remotely similar to that besides

24:36

Kelly, which is the pseudonym we gave her, who

24:38

is also the person that he

24:40

presents in our conversation as somebody

24:43

who would vouch for him, who

24:45

even told the FBI that hey

24:47

it wasn't me who did it,

24:49

it was this guy over here. And

24:52

if you look at her text messages

24:54

that we read, they kind of, you

24:57

could draw connections in

25:00

her super vague theory, but

25:03

the big difference is that John's

25:05

claiming that her body was found

25:08

and that Kelly

25:11

took this to the FBI, meaning

25:13

that it's a rap, it's all over. This

25:16

is a solved case. And I

25:18

even mentioned that towards the end of our

25:20

conversation, kind of like why he was

25:23

talking about going back to Nome, and if he

25:25

went back to Nome, everyone would know who he

25:27

was and people were still reaching out to him,

25:29

and I was like, why? And they're because

25:31

they think I'm involved. And I said,

25:33

but they caught the guy, didn't they? And

25:36

he just responded that, well, they still

25:38

think that I'm involved. And

25:41

so to me, it was just a very specific

25:45

statement. It was very detailed. I mean,

25:47

it's not like, like, where did he

25:49

pull that from? In

25:52

a barrel under someone's house. That's

25:55

just, that isn't true. FBI

26:00

in because she was working for the guy that killed her

26:02

and she found the barrel into the house and called the

26:04

FBI in. The FBI had to rescue

26:06

me. Under your dude's house

26:08

buried in a 50 gallon drum that girl was

26:10

telling you about. And if

26:13

it is true then they never found her.

26:16

Right? Or we haven't found her yet. You

26:19

have to remember too that in this conversation he

26:21

doesn't know that we know anything at all about this case.

26:25

So he's saying stuff as if

26:27

it's the first time we've heard anything.

26:30

He wouldn't know that we could quickly

26:32

disprove or know for a fact that

26:34

Flo has in fact not been found.

26:36

Right? And we just kind of played along

26:38

with that. To me

26:40

that's a key thing to remember

26:43

when listening to John's conversation. And

26:45

also that he offered

26:48

all this stuff up on his own

26:50

accord. Right? I

26:53

thought going into it that there was a

26:55

chance maybe that we got absolutely nothing. And

26:57

this lasted 15 minutes and he's like

26:59

send your resume to this website and that's how

27:02

you get this job and the end. Right? But

27:05

I never had to bring up any sort of

27:07

missing person for him to start talking about it.

27:11

Which I thought was just I

27:14

mean super coincidental. Clearly

27:16

it's on his mind and when he

27:18

thinks about leaving Nome this is

27:20

a part of that. Right?

27:23

Yeah it's strange because like I was

27:25

saying before with the stuff he's being

27:28

muddy on it seems deliberate. It doesn't

27:30

seem like he's just accidentally missing some

27:33

facts. Also again he's bringing these facts

27:35

to the table. But if you

27:37

were to believe and I'm

27:39

not saying he did anything or was involved or

27:42

anything like that we have no idea. But

27:45

if you were to believe him and what he's

27:47

saying his story is that

27:50

they found the body in a barrel and

27:52

the FBI didn't tell the family about

27:54

this at all. And they haven't

27:57

told anyone about it. And they also. We

28:01

haven't got to this tape, but he gets a

28:03

cover-up story from the FBI, kind of a witness

28:05

protection type thing where they fly him out of

28:07

there and protect him. That's a

28:09

lot to believe.

28:12

There's nothing he's

28:14

mixing that up with, right? Like

28:16

this is all some delusion he

28:18

believes or a story he's told people

28:20

or is telling himself. Yeah,

28:23

to expand on that, I mean, I think the way you have

28:26

to look at what Oregon John

28:28

is saying is

28:30

through the lens of delusion. You

28:32

know, like this story he's telling, he's

28:35

telling two complete strangers that he thinks

28:37

know nothing about what he's talking about.

28:39

So everything he says isn't the truth.

28:41

It's just whatever he's rehearsed in his head

28:43

and maybe convinced himself is his truth. But

28:46

it's him saying whatever he has to say really

28:48

to shut the conversation down, to get

28:50

you off his back and to make you look away and

28:53

make you think, oh, he actually wasn't involved. Maybe he is

28:55

a good guy. He doesn't

28:57

want to tell the truth

28:59

if the truth damns him, if it puts him in

29:01

prison for the rest of his life. He'll never tell

29:03

you and he'll definitely never tell a stranger. But

29:05

he will tell you a rehearsed story that

29:07

he probably believes really deeply. Yeah,

29:10

for Oregon John has very little

29:12

details when it comes to the

29:14

most important things. The

29:17

main one being where'd she go after

29:19

she left his tent? What

29:21

was she doing there in the first place? Right.

29:25

Those are arguably the most important things if

29:28

you're John, especially if

29:30

you're innocent. Right. But

29:32

he has seemingly endless stories and

29:34

details about other elements of this

29:36

case that go beyond him and

29:39

point other directions. And they're not

29:41

even really cohesive. And many of

29:43

them are just completely bold-faced lies

29:45

because we can prove that they're

29:47

not true. It makes you kind

29:50

of dig into the psychology of this kind of person.

29:53

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29:55

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to get started. in

32:00

his eyes in the moment knows little to nothing

32:03

at all about this. Yeah,

32:05

and we've I mean we've all ran into

32:07

people who can't

32:09

help but lie all the time. It

32:12

does seem like he tends to lie a lot

32:14

and that's just kind of maybe part of his

32:16

personality. Maybe that's just how he is with strangers.

32:18

Maybe he just doesn't know you guys so he's

32:20

like hey, I got to show off a little

32:23

bit. But some of them were very strange lies.

32:26

Like you said, there's a lot of things we know

32:28

for a fact he was lying about and a lot

32:30

of things that I suspect he's lying about but it

32:33

it's strange behavior all the way around for

32:35

me and I don't know I would be

32:38

even the way he talks about her and

32:41

the whole thing just how I would handle it

32:43

I would if some somebody was hanging out with

32:45

me the night before and then it disappeared and

32:48

then I have some of their items

32:50

in my tent and I'm hitting him

32:52

over I'd be asking people like intents

32:54

near me like hey did anyone

32:56

see where she went or who she went with or

32:59

what's going on like or did they

33:01

just really not know each other at all? It

33:03

was like passing in the night like we don't

33:05

know the details of it so I just feel

33:07

like I would ask around or maybe

33:09

get involved in a search but

33:11

it seems like he kind of felt the need

33:13

to get out of town when

33:15

it all went down. Yeah,

33:17

one comment that he made really

33:20

struck me. He said something

33:22

along the lines I'm paraphrasing here, but

33:24

we'll play the quote. He essentially says

33:27

that the girls knew me the girls

33:29

in town trusted me My tent was

33:31

a safe place My

33:34

camp was known as a safe place for people to

33:36

come when they were drinking without any That's

33:38

where I was never coming back to Alaska and then I got

33:40

this fucking job But

33:43

I I don't I stay out of trouble. I don't go into town.

33:45

I don't mess around with girls. I got me a deal of life

33:48

I don't You know, I

33:50

don't get in trouble. I used to I should ride around

33:52

on my wheeler with a half gallon of vodka just to

33:54

be alive, but all my female

33:56

friends that knew me Were

33:58

standing up for me including my girlfriend

34:01

that had rape charges on her. They

34:03

knew me, you know, because I was really chilled

34:05

with the girls, you know? There's

34:07

no reason why I do that. That

34:11

just really stood out to me because it

34:13

seemed like an over-qualification of himself

34:16

when it wasn't really necessary in

34:18

the moment and I wasn't really questioning

34:21

whether or not he may have been involved.

34:24

I was just nodding my head and believing

34:26

him in the moment, right? But

34:29

just pretending for a second that I think that's

34:31

true. I'll pretend for

34:33

a second that, sure, all

34:35

the girls knew him. All the girls

34:37

trusted him. His tent was a safe place.

34:41

If that is true, then

34:43

wouldn't this be the biggest

34:46

fuckup ever? For

34:48

someone who outwardly,

34:51

publicly states that

34:53

people were safe around him, well,

34:56

up until this moment then, because based

34:59

on your story, Florence was not safe

35:01

that night because as soon

35:03

as she left your tent, she was kidnapped

35:05

and murdered, and these are his words, not

35:08

mine. So you'd

35:11

think that coupled with that, if

35:14

you're qualifying yourself in that way and

35:16

you're genuinely that person, you're a

35:18

good guy and people trust you and your

35:20

tent is a safe place, but if those things

35:22

are true, then I feel

35:25

like simultaneously you also would be saying, I

35:28

just feel so bad, right? I

35:31

can't believe that after she left

35:33

my tent, which is a safe place for people

35:35

to be, she was kidnapped and

35:37

murdered. You know? I feel awful

35:40

about that. He doesn't. Or

35:42

at least he didn't tell me he did. Yeah,

35:45

also, I mean, we

35:47

kind of know that his tent, well,

35:49

I don't know if it took place in his

35:51

tent, but we know that he

35:54

wasn't the safe place and there are

35:56

charges against him that prove that he

35:58

was unsafe for certain women. to be

36:00

around. We've read the accounts,

36:02

we've seen the police reports on these. It's

36:05

not, I wouldn't consider him

36:07

a safe guy if you're a woman.

36:09

So claiming that is very

36:11

strange to me, especially

36:14

if it's 100% provable, that's not

36:16

true. It felt like everything

36:18

he was saying was really to throw you off the

36:20

scent of a trail, right? Like it was always something

36:22

that would just shut you down and immediately make you

36:24

say, okay, he has a good answer for that, let's

36:26

just move on. You know, but when

36:28

you start to add up everything that he was saying,

36:31

being a friend of all the women, saying,

36:33

oh, some other guy did it, they found her body.

36:36

I mean, that's a huge red flag for anybody. And

36:38

that's just, why would you do that? If you're innocent, why

36:41

would you do that? There's no good answer for that. And

36:44

it was also clearly top of mind to him still. When

36:47

he thought I'd known, it's the first thing he thought of. Yeah,

36:49

you get what's crazy is you guys, one

36:52

thing you were talking about before, like the

36:54

logistics and preparation for it, and maybe Cooper,

36:56

you can talk about this too, but you

36:58

guys, I remember in the Airbnb and Anchorage,

37:00

you guys were like rehearsing for hours on

37:02

hours, like talking to each other, trying to

37:04

get your stories right. Yeah. And you can,

37:06

you should talk about that a little bit,

37:08

but it didn't seem like it took much

37:11

to, you didn't really have to stay in

37:13

that much of character to get this out

37:15

of, but yeah, you guys were

37:17

really preparing, right, Cooper? Yeah. So in the

37:19

beginning, it was just going to

37:21

be pain, confronting John and Ketchikan, somewhere

37:24

around the docks. But

37:26

it slowly started to become

37:28

a team effort with me

37:30

included, just because I knew so

37:32

much about Alaska that I could jump in the

37:34

conversation if I needed to. If things got weird,

37:36

I could ask a question

37:39

real quick about something about a

37:41

common Alaska cultural event

37:43

or something that people talk

37:45

about, like the weather, but it's like

37:47

regarding Alaska. So we

37:49

got some cred going again if the

37:52

conversation got a little too spicy. And

37:55

also think, you know, just having

37:57

the extra person there definitely extended.

38:00

the conversation with John. So we got

38:02

a lot more material in the end.

38:04

I remember sitting down at

38:06

the bar and just, you know, being

38:08

super excited about the audio quality because

38:10

the music, there was music playing in

38:12

the background but it was super low

38:14

and then I'm not even joking

38:16

like right when John walked in you know

38:18

the music went back up real loud and

38:20

a whole bunch of people came in all

38:23

at once. So it was the

38:25

nice quiet dive bar with just the four of

38:27

us and John the bartender,

38:29

maybe like two other old people and then you

38:31

know just a few minutes after when John walked

38:33

in a whole bunch of people came in, the

38:36

music turned up, everyone took all the pool tables,

38:38

it was chaos. So it got a little

38:41

sketchy with you know the recording aspect of

38:43

things in the end but we definitely got

38:45

what we came for. He slipped in

38:47

in the middle of the conversation he

38:49

mentioned the podcast for a second and

38:51

I quickly did a pivot to try to

38:53

get out of that and then towards the

38:55

end right before he left he brought it up

38:58

again and I firmly

39:00

believe that in this moment by

39:02

that point he truly believed

39:04

us, that we were

39:07

who we said we were or that we have or at

39:09

the very least we have nothing

39:11

to do with investigative

39:14

journalism and this podcast he may be

39:16

referring to and if you listen

39:18

to how he said it to me it seemed

39:20

like he was saying that with confidence that

39:22

I thought that this you might be hooked

39:24

up with those guys and

39:27

it bothered me that he knew

39:29

about the podcast and as a

39:31

listener it's different right now hearing

39:33

this for the first time because

39:35

a lot of this stuff happened

39:38

months ago. This particular conversation with

39:40

Oregon John happened well

39:42

before there was any public

39:44

information that I or Tenderfoot

39:47

up and vanished was investigating

39:49

Florence's disappearance at all

39:51

in any way shape or form any

39:54

of the family we talked to and

39:56

friends we kind of instructed them to

39:58

to not say too much to

40:01

people that they don't know and trust just to

40:03

kind of keep it within the circle. So

40:05

it bothered me as to

40:07

why he knew that information so

40:10

specifically that it was a podcaster

40:13

reaching out to people. And

40:15

the only thing I could think of because

40:17

it was a finite number of places I

40:19

think he could have learned that from was

40:21

that the day before one

40:23

of the times actually the first time I tried to

40:25

call Kelly was 24 hours

40:28

before we met with him. And

40:30

so I'm just guessing and

40:32

trying to stick things together

40:35

here but it would

40:37

make sense that maybe she mentioned

40:40

something about that to him and

40:44

he just didn't really look too much into it but it

40:46

was on his mind when he met with me. Yeah

40:50

and some of the things he disclosed to

40:52

you guys you should talk about where

40:54

like we've heard other stories from

40:56

other people about this guy. This guy who

40:59

was named Sir with a J and he

41:01

was a cab driver right? And then what

41:03

does he do when you're in the bar

41:05

talking to him he brings up

41:07

that he was that was one

41:09

of the first things I think he says when

41:11

you talk about no he's like yeah I was

41:13

a cab driver. It's like wow this is really

41:15

kind of lining up with all these stories we've

41:18

heard about you and this

41:20

kind of legend that goes with you or this lore

41:22

that goes with you and it's

41:24

you're definitely the guy everyone's been talking

41:26

about right? And we heard those stories

41:29

right? I'm pretty sure we put that story in that

41:31

he was a cab driver right? Yeah I mean we

41:33

knew that he was a cab driver that that was

41:35

learned early on. I think that

41:38

to me the biggest statement he

41:40

made to us that was offered

41:42

entirely on his own and

41:44

in no way shape or form was prompted

41:47

by myself or Cooper was

41:49

the story about the rental car and

41:51

he he mentions this story after I

41:53

asked him if he was

41:55

ever interrogated by the police

41:58

and he simply says no they never talked me, which

42:01

I believe him on that one. But

42:05

he brings up after that just a

42:07

sort of I guess talk about why

42:10

the police may or may not

42:12

have been interested in him even

42:14

though they didn't interrogate him according

42:16

to John and he brings up that rental

42:19

car story. I had

42:21

heard this story before from several people

42:23

but I had never been able to fully you know

42:26

down to the papers of the

42:28

rental car receipt and everything prove

42:30

it out definitively so I hadn't

42:32

brought it up publicly in the

42:34

podcast yet. But if you

42:36

listen back to it, it kind

42:38

of doesn't even make sense as

42:41

to why he'd bring it up. Like

42:44

us hearing that knowing no other information,

42:47

I would not quickly

42:49

know the association to Florence's disappearance

42:52

with that story he's talking about.

42:55

So much so that I had to break it down to

42:57

the listeners I felt like. Mike,

43:00

Dylan, Cooper, in your eyes what does

43:02

that story tell you? The

43:05

biggest thing for me is again it's like

43:07

the cab thing. It's like we heard stories

43:09

of him driving a cab and then he

43:11

talks about driving a cab and tells us

43:13

another terrible story he did while being a

43:15

cab driver and then this one

43:17

he volunteers it on his own. We heard

43:19

from the family that he rented a car

43:21

the day after she went missing and

43:23

it was suspicious and why he ran a car when he has

43:25

a car. And we were like

43:28

well was this you've talked to Andy

43:30

about this the private investigator and

43:32

you were like talking about this car and they're like

43:34

well did they ever do anything with the car? Did

43:36

the police check the car? And we're

43:38

like we don't know right we're not sure

43:40

and then he yeah like you said unprompted

43:42

just kind of volunteers this when you bring

43:44

up the police if they ever

43:46

talk to him he's like oh yeah

43:49

let me talk about this car I rented the day

43:51

after but it wasn't for me it was for my

43:53

friends who were underage couldn't rent a car they wanted

43:55

to go fishing so I let him use it and

43:57

then I just rode my four-wheeler around and

43:59

then I pulled and it's like, what is, again,

44:02

very good memory about this one

44:05

part of this timeline, this series of

44:07

events that happened here, very

44:09

vivid memory of what happened with this, unless he's

44:12

just making all this up on the spot with

44:14

the rented car, but we've heard from other people

44:16

who were in Nome that he rented a car the

44:19

day after. So now he's bringing it up.

44:21

Is this some kind of important thing that

44:23

needs to be followed up on? Like, where

44:25

is this car now? Has anyone checked it? Have

44:28

the police looked at this car? Have they not?

44:30

Do they know about it? Did they actually question

44:32

them or interrogate them? I don't know. Yeah,

44:35

did that car disappear? Is it still there? I

44:37

mean, unless that car went missing too, it

44:40

would have had to have been destroyed somewhere

44:43

or went missing somewhere

44:45

in or around Nome, shipped

44:48

off somewhere on a boat, or

44:50

it's still there, right? And if

44:53

Florence's body was ever in a rental car

44:55

like that, in theory, like

44:58

Andy was saying, there would likely

45:00

still be some sort of physical DNA

45:02

evidence in there to be

45:04

investigated. And I don't

45:06

know the answer to that question, whether or not

45:08

they've done investigative

45:11

work like that. But based

45:14

on the people that I've talked to and

45:16

some of the latest information I'm hearing out

45:19

of the Nome Police Department is that it's

45:22

strongly possible that there isn't even

45:24

a case file in

45:26

existence in that building, which

45:29

I think that would answer that question. Right,

45:31

I think we really need to put

45:33

money towards getting that car processed by

45:35

professionals. Even if

45:38

it's Nome PD, somebody needs to process that, or

45:40

they need to tell us that they have already

45:42

processed it and nothing was found in the trunk

45:44

or whatever. But somebody needs to

45:46

process that and we need some type of

45:49

paper trail along with that, right? Some

45:51

confirmation. You can also glean from

45:53

John's statement there about the rental car that

45:57

there are friends of

45:59

his. gnome that

46:01

he's close enough with that

46:04

within 12 hours of Florence going

46:07

missing he's using

46:10

his identification and his

46:13

insurance or whatever it takes serving a car or

46:15

gnome right from that particular place for

46:18

these people and so

46:20

you it makes you wonder okay well where were these

46:22

people the night before right you know do

46:24

did they also hang out on the beach with

46:26

him as well I've

46:28

seen videos and pictures of some parts of

46:31

the tent camps there on West Beach from

46:34

Flo's friends and this is within

46:36

days of her disappearance and I've

46:38

been pointed out I've been pointed

46:40

out by several people which one was

46:42

John's tent and there were tents

46:45

pretty close together in a row

46:48

and so if anyone was

46:51

hanging out outside unless you

46:53

were inside your tent you'd see them

46:55

and so to me it kind of painted

46:57

a different picture a little bit it

47:00

wasn't like there was every 50 yards

47:02

just a solo tent and it's just

47:04

all you hear is wind if

47:07

people like were hanging out they'd

47:09

all be hanging out unless it got super

47:11

late and everyone was everyone was asleep or

47:13

they went somewhere else besides that and

47:16

so if something happened to her there

47:18

someone could have

47:20

seen something quite easily I feel like you

47:24

know it makes me wonder

47:26

did something happen there did

47:28

they go somewhere else afterwards

47:30

or these friends that John is mentioning

47:33

do they know something that they should

47:35

be telling the police well

47:38

I say police but that they should be telling

47:42

period if

47:44

he had friends over that he gave a

47:46

rental car to the day after or some

47:48

time near the night she went

47:50

missing were they not around the night

47:53

she went missing did they get there that

47:55

day mm-hmm right and

47:57

who were they yeah who were they and we would

48:00

really like to talk to you. Just ask him

48:03

some questions. So

48:05

there's a lot of things happening in real

48:07

time right now and there

48:10

are other pieces to the puzzle

48:12

that we have that we've not

48:14

entirely unveiled yet either. So having

48:16

this conversation today is I think

48:19

important for clarity for everybody and

48:21

it's also kind of a one that we have to

48:23

do pretty carefully. But

48:25

moving forward in the rest of this

48:27

season, we're going to chase down some

48:30

of these new leads and

48:33

challenge some of the

48:35

statements that John has made

48:38

and leave the door open for

48:40

anyone who knows anything to

48:43

come forward and say something. And

48:45

I think that in the amount of time that

48:47

we've been investigating this case,

48:50

I feel in my gut that we've got to the point

48:52

where we're at the center of

48:54

it, whatever happened

48:56

to Florence, the answer is

48:58

somewhere among us right now. And

49:01

our plan is to stay on

49:03

it, to keep the pressure

49:06

going and press

49:08

even harder. We didn't include it

49:10

in there, but there was one point where I saw

49:13

Payne went to the bathroom, so

49:16

I ran in there too. And we had a little- I was hoping

49:18

when you got to meet me, I'm like, now's your chance. I'm like, yo,

49:20

what the

49:23

fuck do you think of this shit? What is going on?

49:26

That little mission, how are you

49:28

feeling at that point Payne, when I saw

49:30

you in the bathroom? Do you remember that?

49:32

Is it all blur? Do you remember the

49:34

night? No, I remember that. I definitely remember

49:37

being in the bathroom briefly and having a

49:39

chat with you because it was the

49:42

most relief I'd had in about

49:44

an hour or so. I just

49:47

remember being so caught off guard

49:49

at how quickly

49:51

we were able to

49:54

get into the discussion of Florence's

49:56

disappearance, but then being

49:59

anxious as hell. about how I

50:01

could keep bringing this back

50:03

up without it seeming so

50:05

weird. In that I

50:07

needed to pad every sort of

50:10

deep question I had that was

50:12

specific about her disappearance.

50:14

I had to pad in between

50:16

that some casual side

50:19

conversation that had nothing remotely

50:21

at all to do with that or else it would

50:23

just seem like a literal interrogation.

50:25

And so I was kind

50:27

of doing that balancing act and

50:30

seeing how far I could push it knowing and

50:33

feeling that each time I did that, that

50:36

maybe this was the one time that he goes, why do

50:38

you keep asking about that? I didn't

50:40

have a good answer ready for that other than just trying

50:43

to play it off even more but then in

50:46

that moment really it would be, it would kind

50:48

of shut the conversation down I feel like. So

50:51

I ask it again after that. It's

50:53

like I just told you like I thought that's weird

50:55

why are you still saying that? That's

50:57

really why it was a two

51:00

hour conversation is because we spread

51:02

out everything to make it feel

51:04

more organic and normal. I

51:07

don't know who is responsible

51:10

for Florence Ocpealeck's disappearance but

51:13

if you look at everything we've

51:15

discovered thus far and

51:17

everything that points back

51:19

towards West Beach, back

51:21

to Oregon John's tent, back to

51:23

him having her things, all the

51:25

other stories surrounding him and

51:27

that scenario and that last night that

51:29

she was there on the beach

51:32

and never seen or heard from

51:34

again. I think if you couple that

51:36

with his behavior and how

51:38

some of his stories don't add up

51:40

and some of them are just bold

51:42

faced lies, it makes me personally wonder

51:45

is this the one that's

51:47

not a lie? Is the most

51:50

important question, the most

51:52

important answer we're all seeking

51:54

is this the one thing he's not lying about but he's

51:57

lying about 90 plus

51:59

percent. about everything else.

52:02

That would be a little weird, I think. But,

52:05

you know, there's no way to definitively

52:07

know that. But I also think

52:10

that, you know, we may

52:12

be dealing with somebody who isn't gonna come

52:14

out and just say something like that. My

52:17

perception of him is that even

52:20

talking outside of Flo's disappearance in this

52:22

analogy, I feel like he's the kind

52:24

of person just from my perspective from

52:26

talking to him that would convince himself

52:29

of something that wasn't true. Up

53:00

and Vanished, Unpacked, Episode 6. Go

53:02

right now on your podcast app and

53:05

look up Talking to Death and

53:07

find the latest episode featuring Laura

53:09

Morton. Up

53:18

and Vanished in the Midnight Sun is

53:20

a production of Tundra Foot TV in

53:22

association with Odyssey. Your host is Payne

53:24

Lindsey. The show is written by Payne

53:27

Lindsey with additional assistance from Mike Rooney.

53:29

Executive producers are Donald Albright and Payne

53:31

Lindsey. Lead producer is Mike

53:33

Rooney, along with producers Dylan Harrington

53:35

and Cooper Skinner. Editing by Mike

53:37

Rooney and Cooper Skinner with additional

53:39

editing by Dylan Harrington. Supervising producer

53:42

is Tracy Kaplan. Additional production

53:44

by Victoria McKenzie, Alice Kniek-Glenn,

53:47

and Eric Cantana. Artwork by Rob

53:49

Sheridan. Original music by Makeup and

53:51

Vanity Sun. Mixed and mastered by Cooper

53:53

Skinner. Thank you to Orin Rosenbaum and

53:55

the team at UTA, Beak Media and

53:57

Marketing, and the Nord Group. Special thanks

53:59

to... to all of the families and community

54:01

members that spoke to the team. Additional

54:04

information and resources can be found

54:06

in our show notes. For more podcasts

54:08

like Up and Vanished, search Tenderfoot TV

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on your favorite podcast app or

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visit us at tenderfoot.tv. Thanks for

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you're a fly on the wall at a

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the nearest recent animal podcast. Hey

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Tenderfoot listeners, this is Eric Quintana. Are you a

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