0:02

[inaudible] .

0:02

"My mind was racing with every possible

0:04

outcome including death and

0:07

maiming that a falling tree could have

0:09

on a human. Resistance

0:11

deeply pulled at me. I was scared

0:13

and multiple times the resistance tried to talk

0:16

me out of the fighting the fire raging

0:18

in front of me. I kept thinking, my

0:20

saw isn't sharp. I'm dehydrated

0:22

and tired. I could cut down the

0:24

tree tomorrow. We could just burn

0:26

it down. Every possible

0:29

thought of resistance was turning the tide

0:31

in my mind. I stood up

0:33

to the resistance and with deep breaths,

0:36

I focused on my personal power

0:38

and confidence. I visualized

0:40

my cuts going perfectly. I

0:43

own this tree and this

0:45

fire." Now

0:49

please join me you guys on this very

0:51

special Up in Flames' episode with Thomas

0:53

Wurm, new author

0:56

and all around amazing human being. This is

1:03

Abby Bolt and I am so

1:06

honored today to get to talk to Thomas

1:09

Wurm, who is not only a

1:11

wild land firefighter, but he is

1:13

now a published author

1:15

of "Overcome Anxiety like

1:17

a Hero". Thomas, welcome to the podcast.

1:20

Wow. Thank you so much for having me today. I'm

1:23

so excited to be , you know, part

1:25

of the podcast here and talk to

1:27

your community today.

1:29

Well I think 'cause I think my community is

1:31

totally your community. So that's,

1:33

you know, that's what really caught my eye

1:35

when I saw this kind of coming along. And

1:38

of course battling battling

1:40

anxiety is, is near and dear to me.

1:42

Yeah. So Thomas actually was

1:45

a wild land for , are you still fighting fire

1:47

or is that something you're still involved

1:49

in?

1:50

So yeah, I have actually started my own business.

1:52

Uh , it's called Mountain Mind Tricks and it's really focused

1:55

on life coaching , uh, guided

1:57

meditation, fitness training and , and

1:59

really a holistic approach to helping

2:01

people transform their anxiety

2:04

into a full happy life. And they're

2:07

just being healthy, safe and happy as is the

2:09

end state.

2:10

That's amazing. Because that's, I

2:12

really started digging deep into the things that you're

2:14

doing and I can see that

2:16

your time as a wild land firefighter was

2:19

definitely an inspiration. And

2:21

I'm going to want to ask you about

2:23

that. But then I want to, I just want to read

2:25

through a little piece of the book that captured

2:27

me and I'm gonna , I'm going to read

2:29

it as I'm reading it and feeling it. And

2:32

then I want you to tell me about that. You

2:34

have several chapters here, cause I'd also like to talk about

2:36

your quiz that you have in there, which I thought

2:38

was super interesting. So

2:41

in chapter 3 I believe

2:43

it is, there's a piece where you're talking

2:45

in here about a day where you were cutting

2:47

and you were on this saw you're a faller . Okay,

2:50

here it is. "So without hesitation, I

2:52

started sizing up the tree, making a plan on

2:54

how and why I would cut down this tree". But

2:56

the daylight was fading fast. It was dusk

2:58

at point. So I had little free time,

3:01

little time to formulate a perfect

3:03

plan. My heart was racing, my

3:05

palms were sweaty, and fear was turning my stomach

3:07

inside out as I started my chainsaw. My

3:10

mind was racing with every possible outcome,

3:12

including death and maiming that a falling

3:14

tree could have on a human. Resistance

3:17

deeply pulled at me. I was scared and multiple

3:19

times the resistance tried to talk me out of fighting

3:21

the fire raging in front of me and I kept

3:24

thinking, my saw isn't sharp. I'm

3:26

dehydrated and tired. I could cut

3:28

down the tree tomorrow. We could just burn it down.

3:30

Every possible thought or resistance was turning

3:32

the tide in my mind. I stood up to

3:34

the resistance and with deep breaths I

3:36

focused on my personal power and confidence.

3:39

I visualized my cuts going perfectly. I

3:41

own this tree and this fire." Now

3:44

that's, I want to just read like all the paragraphs

3:46

in this piece because I love it. And it of

3:48

course it speaks to me a lot. But that

3:51

just gives me like some insight of where

3:53

you pulled from, from your

3:55

career. So tell me about that. Tell

3:57

me where this comes from and where it led to you.

3:59

Yeah. So really just throughout my career

4:01

there is so many experiences like that where

4:03

it's, you know, everything doesn't go perfectly,

4:05

it's going to be a bad outcome or maybe

4:07

not so good. And I always felt like I

4:09

really, as soon as I felt

4:11

that flow state, everything worked out

4:14

and for some reason of best

4:16

I ever performed was when it was, I had

4:18

to do it. Now I had to do it perfectly where it

4:20

was like for death. And for some

4:22

reason that flow state that I went into, I

4:25

just, everything went perfectly.

4:27

You know, that tree that day , uh , everything

4:30

worked out perfectly fine and just go

4:32

into that flow state. And so I really

4:34

took that, that most things start

4:36

to examine that and research it and, and

4:38

read about it. And um , I worked

4:41

with , uh, uh, Matt

4:42

Bell Larry. Other podcast hosts

4:44

. Uh , he's then athlete

4:47

is kind of his platform and went deeper

4:49

into flow state. And, and really

4:50

performance performance and

4:55

so and yeah, it just really helped me overcome

4:57

anxiety. When I started going deeper, I

4:59

realized that this low state is

5:02

the secret to overcoming anxiety. It's what

5:04

we all want is the flowing

5:06

with ease and confidence and just

5:08

to be content with the

5:10

moment right now. Uh, that's

5:13

really what I came through with my wildland

5:15

fire career was just being content right

5:18

now. And if you can do, if the one seconds and

5:20

you've won the anxiety paddle. You can

5:23

really think that one second, expand it

5:25

to five seconds and then keep building for

5:27

five minutes and then several

5:29

days . Right. Keep going

5:32

And then we are talking about, you

5:34

know, anxieties and fears and

5:36

outcomes in a pretty high,

5:39

you know, risk intense job.

5:41

But give me an example of

5:43

how it doesn't, it doesn't have to apply

5:45

to a crazy intense job. It's just daily life.

5:48

Like what are some anxiety challenges

5:50

that people are fighting with every day?

5:53

Um, so really it's, you know,

5:56

people have anxiety about, you

5:58

know, how other people are judging them. So social

6:00

situations. Or

6:02

uh, you know, being good enough at work or

6:05

having that self worth self confidence. Just

6:08

feeling anxiety of being themselves

6:10

and really honoring themselves. For me,

6:12

that's, that's what I see the most is people

6:15

have this anxiety 'cause there's a , there's

6:17

a conflict inside them of. They

6:19

know who they really are, but they're not seeing

6:21

it in their life. And I think that's a really big

6:24

part of feeling anxiety.

6:26

Right. I see what you're saying.

6:29

You know, people's , like

6:31

the tree, the saw the whole

6:33

situation of that one piece

6:36

that you described, like in someone's life, that could

6:38

be school. It could be work, it could be

6:40

marriage. It could be anything.

6:42

It's just whatever that, whatever

6:44

that challenge is in your life that you need to overcome,

6:47

it could be sickness. Um, you

6:49

know, it's not, that's where you pull

6:51

that deep inspiration, but people

6:53

realize and clearly through your, your

6:56

coaching profession and what

6:58

you're turning this into, you're able to help people

7:00

across the lines. All the way.

7:03

I mean, every walk of life you're able to help

7:05

with that experience. Right?

7:06

Yeah. And really, you know,

7:09

of course I can relate the wild land firefighters

7:11

the most. But this , this

7:13

idea of the fire, the fire

7:15

inside, near the fire, inside somebody, the

7:17

things it, it's, it's uh

7:19

, you know, in the book I talk about, you know,

7:21

joining together to become a fear fighter. That

7:23

could be anybody in any situation.

7:27

It's all just a metaphor. The firefighting,

7:29

the last 13 years, my life is a metaphor

7:31

for what I'm doing now for my

7:34

clients.

7:34

Right. And the beginning of your book, you

7:37

have an anxiety quiz and I'm just gonna run

7:39

through these questions. I'm not going to answer them because

7:42

probably don't want to hear my answers cause most of them

7:44

are yes. In some way. And then

7:46

I would want, then I would end up wanting to know how , I have

7:48

a whole bunch of years suggestions from that. But

7:50

I'm going to , um, I've

7:53

almost finished reading your book and I'm going

7:55

to, it's more of a workbook.

7:57

It's really an interactive book and that's

7:59

why I've read through it and I now I

8:01

need to go back through it much slower and really

8:04

massage all of the things that you have in there

8:06

and take them in and work with them. The

8:09

anxiety quizzes , number one is, Are you restless

8:11

and on edge all day? Number two,

8:14

is your gut always telling you that something bad

8:16

is about to happen? Number three,

8:18

do you have an uncontrollable feeling of worry?

8:22

Are you irritable about the little things? Or

8:25

do you have a hard time focusing during the

8:27

day? Five, do you wish you were able to get

8:29

more sleep? Six,, do

8:31

you have difficulty speaking up in social interactions

8:34

with unfamiliar people? Seven

8:36

,are you deathly afraid of something

8:38

in everyday life? Eight, do

8:40

you feel like you are dying going crazy

8:43

or out of control? And in

8:46

after number eight you mentioned if you

8:48

answered yes to this question, you may need

8:50

professional care, which I think it's amazing

8:52

that you stuck that in there because it is a

8:54

great for people to think about.

8:56

Yeah, so really all those questions

8:59

like that . When I was deep in my

9:01

anxiety during, this is all the stuff

9:03

that I was feeling, you know, and um,

9:06

you know , it's against my journey later, but really

9:09

just the everyday I

9:12

really thought I was dying. I had a more

9:14

of a hypochondriac type anxiety and it's just

9:17

driving me crazy, you know? And, and a

9:19

lot of these things are exactly

9:21

what I was feeling. And you know, sleep

9:23

is probably the biggest , uh , biggest

9:25

sign for me and what I've seen clients is

9:28

the sleep is really

9:30

interrelated to the anxiety.

9:33

Absolutely. You can't shut your mind off.

9:35

Right. That's usually the biggest culprit. And

9:38

so often we either battle with that

9:40

insomnia, which is usually brought on by anxiety

9:43

and sit there all night and make things

9:45

worse or we end up using medication

9:48

to help us sleep. And you know,

9:50

and some people medicate with things that are definitely not healthy

9:53

and everyone wants to

9:55

learn how to be able to sleep more soundly

9:57

and it's, it definitely isn't just about laying down.

9:59

It's about a whole life method, I would

10:01

think.

10:02

Yeah. Really. You know, that's something I

10:05

didn't really mention that book too much as just

10:08

this is a natural alternative

10:10

path to anxiety

10:12

and overcoming anxiety. And there's no

10:15

doubt in my mind, I'm not a health professional

10:17

. So finding means for the medication that

10:19

it really is an epidemic right now. There

10:22

is other method to try before medication

10:24

possibly. Um

10:27

, but really

10:29

it is a holistic approach and , and

10:32

you know, in my coaching methods it's really like building

10:34

a team of, you know, maybe acupuncture if

10:37

there , um, guided meditations

10:39

and coaching with journaling,

10:41

with food choices, with a

10:44

fitness program. It's really a whole

10:46

full lifestyle changes. It's

10:48

really the only way to overcome anxiety

10:51

wherever it is you change your state

10:53

of being.

10:54

Yeah, it's, I'm, I

10:56

struggle with it every day . I know there's so many changes

10:58

I need to make. There's changes I have made that have really

11:01

made a difference in my life and it's

11:03

not as easy as it sounds. And definitely

11:05

getting some guidance, whether it's self

11:08

help books or coaching or

11:10

something. And it's , it's not easy

11:12

to do on your own. And I really don't know many people

11:14

that have been able to make those changes

11:16

in their life, truly by themselves. I think

11:19

people find, they reach out and find people like

11:21

you or you know, whether they read

11:23

a book or they get inspiration from somewhere,

11:25

everyone's getting inspiration and , and

11:27

they're learning something somewhere. And so

11:30

I just love that you're able to put all this into words.

11:32

And so tell me, you know, I read

11:35

through to like your acknowledgements of the

11:37

appreciation of your wife and some

11:39

other people in your life and your mother and

11:42

you know, you talked about your journey.

11:44

So tell me more about your journey. What,

11:47

what were those challenges for you and

11:49

where were you finding yourself?

11:51

Yeah, so really , uh , everything

11:55

was pretty normal, you know, wild

11:57

land, firefighting life. And

11:59

then, let's see, 20 a

12:01

couple of years ago anyway , um, my best

12:03

friend passed away suddenly at age 40.

12:06

Wow. And it really just shocked

12:09

me to the core. It's my first experience

12:11

with death , really close to

12:13

me. And what's really

12:15

interesting is that it brought up all of

12:17

these experiences that I had as a

12:20

teenager where I had near death experiences.

12:23

And it really brought that all, all

12:25

of the front of my life. And it's just right

12:28

there all over again. Like I was

12:30

15 and I had to really grapple with yeah

12:33

. And really deal with that. Um,

12:36

and this led me to meditation

12:38

and yoga and she gone. And

12:41

really the anxiety was just like, I

12:43

really thought I was like having

12:46

this crazy thoughts. A lot of, you know,

12:48

I think I'm sick. I think I have this, I

12:50

think I have this, you know, the web MD syndrome

12:53

type thing. Well, and then I

12:55

kept going deeper into meditation and

12:57

I had a , um, some

12:59

might describe what the Kundalini type experience.

13:02

Where a instant awakening

13:04

type experience that just really

13:07

launched me out of my body. And, and

13:10

uh, I, I guess I got a download

13:12

the universe in a way. Um, and

13:15

when I came back from that, my health

13:17

problems were way worse.

13:20

My anxiety was way worse, but it started

13:22

that they like my feeling journey. And I

13:25

knew what I had to do

13:27

and it was a solid

13:29

six months to a year of , of

13:32

acupuncture and journaling and

13:35

uh, working with my , um, Chinese

13:37

doctor on, on a weekly basis

13:40

on mind body spirit

13:42

that really helps me come around with no

13:45

food choices, with herbs, with meditation,

13:47

with um, you know, we did

13:49

some, some shamonic journeying

13:51

with, with the doctor , um, where

13:54

like a hypnosis type thing. I'm

13:56

still really a full spectrum of mind, body, spirit

13:59

and from all of that I really

14:01

feel like the anxiety or our

14:03

emotional state, it's all energy.

14:06

And when we can tap into that energy and change

14:09

that energy, what we want to scream , you

14:11

can really take control of our, of

14:13

our minds and our emotions. And

14:16

that whole experience just really drove me to

14:19

do my researching on, I'm

14:22

really a whole spectrum of anxiety

14:25

and you know , I know I'm not the only

14:27

one that experienced anxiety.

14:29

I wanted to learn more how I could help people.

14:32

And , and really this book came

14:34

, uh , very suddenly to me in

14:36

the middle of the night I woke up. That's when I got to

14:38

have to write a book right now.

14:40

[inaudible] weird .

14:41

Um, and so yeah, there's,

14:44

there's um, there's

14:46

I guess some divine energy behind it. Yeah.

14:49

That's pretty cool. Now when you

14:51

say you woke up and you're like, Oh my God, I have to write this book.

14:53

Like what did that take? Like what,

14:56

what kind of a commitment did that take to make this book happen?

14:58

Oh wow. Yeah, I'm really,

15:01

I got a shout out to self published schools

15:03

that I kinda , yeah, I enrolled in self

15:05

published school. That's the online program

15:07

that really teaches you how to,

15:10

has this whole map out of, you

15:12

know , write your book in 30 days in

15:14

an edited. And then on the whole,

15:17

honestly, the hardest part is getting it published and launched

15:19

like correctly. There's so

15:21

much marketing and so much stuff out there

15:23

that you can get hung up on, but they're

15:25

writing for me. It's , um, I

15:27

think in the back of the book , um, I

15:30

want to give it away too much, but there's, there's,

15:32

for me, writing is low state and I really

15:35

found it through writing and

15:36

yeah, when I saw your examples of the flow, cause

15:39

you talk about athletes and then um,

15:41

you know, some different things. Then you mentioned like reading

15:44

people can find the flow in that and then I can see

15:46

how you would as writing too

15:48

. I can, I get that.

15:50

Yeah. It just feels so good to me to write

15:52

, you know, there's, I can be in

15:54

any situation if I'm writing. I'm gonna be

15:57

happy and flowing and just my anxiety

15:59

is going to be gone that moment.

16:01

And I get your, I get your mission of like, you

16:03

know, you want this to count for something. All this work

16:05

that you've done, all this effort that you've made, you

16:08

know, that there's other people out there dealing with it. And to

16:10

be able to pay that forward and help others

16:13

is just, it's remarkable. And I think

16:15

it's so great that you're doing that. And so

16:17

through this journey that what

16:19

you've been doing to help others, do you have any

16:21

examples you can share with us of

16:23

someone else who is, who

16:26

has been facing some challenges and you were able to

16:28

help them through that and , and see them to

16:30

the other side?

16:31

Yeah, really it's , uh, I've had a couple

16:33

clients that have been, you

16:36

know, lacking purpose or searching for purpose

16:38

and really trying to find their

16:41

true purpose in life. And

16:44

like I said earlier, one of the, for

16:47

me, I think what I've seen most commonly is that

16:49

lack of purpose or mission or drive,

16:52

it's a, it is the

16:55

deepest level of anxiety

16:57

as for some people and helping

16:59

them build their vision, you know,

17:02

like build a clear picture and really

17:04

focused on that visualization of yourself in the future

17:07

and what you want. What do you want to

17:09

manifest, what you see your

17:11

highest potential as. And really, you

17:14

know , helping those clients get

17:16

to that and transform the state of things, actually

17:19

be able to achieve that highest

17:21

potential is , I have seen that

17:24

declined so far is , uh , it's,

17:27

it's remarkable to see the transformation

17:29

and all the love that they receive and

17:32

how happy they are. It's great.

17:34

That's gotta be really rewarding.

17:37

Yeah. Yeah, it does feel pretty good. I

17:40

can't lie.

17:40

Yeah, that's great. I mean that's, that's

17:43

sometimes, you know, money does

17:46

not equal success. It's

17:48

feeling that, you know, knowing that you've

17:50

helped someone is very, very valuable.

17:52

You can't put a price on that and know your

17:54

book seems more like a workbook

17:56

or, I mean, it has kind of a workbook type feel

17:58

to it. So tell me your thoughts around

18:00

that and how people can use it

18:03

to help themselves.

18:04

Yeah, so I'm thinking inspiration from that.

18:06

Uh , maybe you've read the book, extreme ownership

18:09

on that book has really, you know, when

18:11

I read it, I was just shocked. Like, Oh wow, I need

18:14

to take ownership of myself. Every

18:16

situation is on me. This

18:18

is my reality. And

18:20

really what I try and set,

18:23

you know right in the first couple of pages

18:25

is is this is your journey. Nobody

18:28

can help you except for yourself.

18:31

And you have to work, you have to work

18:33

at this and you have to really

18:36

like take a stand and,

18:38

and work your , it's pretty, it's a hard journey.

18:41

It's a hero's journey. It's like

18:43

every great story of every

18:46

movie, every comic

18:48

book cause its exact things were in line. And

18:50

that's the structure of the metaphor

18:52

here is there are certain stages

18:54

of anxiety that you're going to go through and it all

18:56

takes work and you have to write and

18:58

you have to think and really go

19:01

through each stage and feel it and

19:03

move past it. You

19:06

have to work with, for sure. It takes

19:09

time and effort to

19:11

do this. As a coach, you know

19:13

, I'm facilitating and supporting people,

19:16

but ultimately it's on them to change,

19:18

to change that state of being and anxiety

19:20

to healthy, safe and happy.

19:24

That's, I like that. Yeah. And it's

19:26

not like someone can just say, here, fix

19:28

this for me. This isn't a car. And we're taken to the shop. This

19:30

is much deeper than that.

19:33

And it's , it's hard. It's really hard

19:35

to stay committed

19:37

to something like that. It's so much easier to go fix

19:39

something or, you know, go paint that

19:41

wall or go, you know, repair, whatever.

19:43

And it's hard to fix ourselves cause we have to

19:46

stick with it. And I'm , I'm,

19:48

I succeed and fail at it daily.

19:50

Like every day I find

19:53

places where I'm like, okay, gotta get better at this.

19:55

And then I get worse at that. And it's like,

19:57

you know, like this morning I'm like, I swear I'm

19:59

going to get up at five and do yoga. I was

20:01

not there. Right . I didn't do

20:04

it. You know, I failed. And it's like, okay

20:06

, I'm going to do better tomorrow. Like , I'm going

20:08

to try harder tomorrow. And that's, you know, that's

20:10

all we can do sometimes . Now that,

20:13

Nope .

20:13

What's that?

20:15

Oh, that's good . There's no failure. There's only feedback.

20:17

Right,

20:18

right. Oh, I like that. I'm going to , I'm going to write that on

20:20

my wall. I

20:22

remind myself that every day , all the feedback I

20:24

give myself for sure. Um,

20:27

the you use like for the example in here, like

20:29

Maslow's pyramid, could you describe

20:31

that to us a little bit?

20:33

Yeah, so really it's uh,

20:35

all levels of life it's been out that's getting

20:37

on or getting to in and

20:39

really it's every level of

20:41

life that physical, financial,

20:44

spiritual, behavioral,

20:47

mental , uh, really every

20:49

level of our life is built upon.

20:51

The structure below that and you

20:53

know, the basics is are , are shelter,

20:56

food and water and air, you

20:58

know, the basic survival physiological

21:00

things . And as you move up it does

21:02

get a little bit more abstract. And really, you

21:05

know, in the book I really call out is

21:07

feeling safe is one

21:10

of the main tenants and that you're man and

21:13

without feeling safe, it's really

21:16

hard to find that pyramid

21:19

into achieve your highest potential. And as Madla

21:22

describes it , you're self actualization or you

21:24

know, being truly happy in consensus

21:26

, the end state of that , of that pyramid

21:29

scale and really that

21:31

not feeling safe. This is a limiting

21:34

factor. Yeah. And it's, it's

21:36

and tell me so that, that safety,

21:38

that security, a body of employment, of resources

21:40

and morality or of the family

21:42

of health or property. So you

21:45

know, that that feeling, you know, a lot of people feel like,

21:47

well, I feel safe. Like I don't, I don't

21:49

feel like anybody's going to hurt me right now. Or, you

21:51

know, I don't feel like I'm gonna fall off of anything. I mean,

21:54

that's the, the feeling of

21:56

safety and Maslow's pyramid is it's

21:58

much more intricate than some people think, you

22:00

know? Um, so there , yeah, security

22:03

of body, is my body safe? Am I going to get

22:05

attacked? Am I gonna ? But then there's like, of employment

22:08

of resources, like describe to me

22:10

how people can feel unsafe.

22:13

It's not just about like cutting down a tree,

22:15

right? It's, yeah. It's not necessarily

22:17

physical. It's the be your self

22:20

body image, but you're actually seeing in your own mind

22:22

of yourself or like you've spent

22:24

employment of no financial

22:27

security. You don't feel safe financially.

22:29

It's pretty hard to , uh,

22:32

you know, feel loved and belonging and not

22:35

having enough resources or unsure

22:37

of morality. You know , the family,

22:40

the household environments , not the

22:42

best, knowing you're not gonna feel safe

22:45

and health and prosperity. It's all really

22:47

tied into that feeling. Anything free

22:49

and available to go

22:52

to that next step of love and belonging.

22:55

Now, when you were struggling, what, what

22:57

was it on the safety level? Do

23:00

you know? Like what are you able to pinpoint

23:03

looking backs and things that made you feel

23:05

unsafe?

23:06

Really my biggest struggle is

23:08

I had like

23:11

this recurring thoughts and

23:13

one of the biggest thoughts I had was like, I have a brain

23:15

to like , I could not stop thinking

23:17

that wow. I just

23:19

repeated over and over and over. Like I

23:22

can't pay attention in conversations. I

23:24

couldn't really work very well, just like this

23:26

thought was just so

23:28

embedded in my mind that I

23:30

was like, my gosh, I'm not gonna

23:33

get sick from this. You know? Um,

23:35

and really having, I just

23:38

didn't feel safe in my body. Like I was dying.

23:40

I truly believed that for a while that

23:42

I was dying. I didn't feel safe in my own.

23:45

I didn't feel safe with my health.

23:48

Um, and really what helped me overcome that specific

23:51

thing was with affirmations . And

23:53

really, you know, in the book I talk about

23:55

situational awareness and of

23:57

your mind and becoming the witness,

24:00

really realizing that, no , I'm not

24:02

my thoughts, I'm something else

24:04

than that. And I can control my thoughts and

24:07

the affirmations. You know, erase

24:09

my thought, I'll have a brain tumor. I would just come right

24:11

back instantly with, you

24:13

know, I'm healthy, safe and happy. And

24:16

I repeated that to myself for thousands

24:18

of times a day. So one

24:20

day I just, I actually send that

24:22

to myself throughout the entire night of

24:25

dreaming and the next day that

24:27

thought was gone forever. It's so

24:29

crazy. But you know , that's looks like

24:31

a couple months of affirmation for that to

24:33

happen.

24:34

A friend of mine who I interviewed on the

24:37

other podcast that went through one

24:39

of the shootings, so she was dealing with trauma and

24:41

she, you know, that the smallest

24:43

thing that helped

24:45

her when she would really fall apart

24:47

with anxiety, it was really about loud noises.

24:50

It sounded like gunshots and she learned it from her therapist.

24:52

Something so simple as just like stepping back

24:55

and you know, telling herself

24:57

and her outer self saying

24:59

like, you're okay, I'm

25:02

okay. We're okay.

25:04

And like getting through that anxiety

25:07

and she was like that simple affirmation

25:09

of getting myself to understand that we're

25:11

okay. You know? And

25:14

she said that that right there was a huge

25:16

answer.

25:17

Right? Yeah. Just your mind

25:19

really likes to play tricks on you claims

25:21

especially with anxiety and it's really

25:24

becoming that witnessed and in thinking

25:27

controllers , huge steps towards it's feeling

25:29

safe in your own mind. Yeah.

25:32

And I see some of your , the root causes

25:34

that you talk about, food sensitivities,

25:37

nutrient deficiencies, stress. I

25:39

mean everybody, we all feel like, Oh it's gotta be just

25:41

cause of my stress and um , hidden

25:43

infections, which I really liked that and thyroid

25:45

dysfunction. So there's so much more to it and

25:47

people need to check out your book because

25:49

you have so much valuable information

25:52

here. I mean, I could interview you for hours

25:54

and hours and hours and basically make this like a giant

25:56

coaching teaching session. Cause it would be,

25:59

I can tell you're just full of information, like everything

26:01

that you have in here. And I was telling you before we started,

26:03

jumped on the recording that your book

26:05

is really easy for me to flow through because

26:08

it's hard for me to read a book cause

26:10

I, my mind wander so much. And

26:12

the way you put your book together I think is great

26:14

because it , it captures me the way it's broken

26:16

down. Um, I'm able

26:18

to go back and forth and, and

26:20

find things that do, that I do

26:22

need to learn from. And then , um, and

26:25

it just, the way you have it broken down and now I know I'm

26:27

probably gonna need to go through it like five or six times because

26:29

I look and I'm like, Oh, I need to, you

26:31

know, once I've learned a little bit more than I need to bounce back

26:33

and reference what it is you're

26:35

talking about in another chapter and then answer

26:38

the questions that you have. Like one a question

26:40

that I'm looking at right now is so exactly how do you overcome

26:42

resistance, in

26:44

you know, you're asking and it talks and then

26:46

it talks about some ideas and it's like, well,

26:49

do you have to know what do I need to do to overcome resistance?

26:51

What are my resistances? And so your

26:54

book just really helps a lot

26:56

of forward thinking and for ourselves.

26:58

And it's clearly it's individual for everyone.

27:00

I mean, there's no, your life

27:02

and what your answers are to your anxiety is completely

27:04

different than mine and different than the guy next door.

27:07

So this is a very valuable

27:09

piece and I what a blessing

27:11

that you took the time or you woke up in the middle of the night and

27:13

felt you had to make it.

27:15

Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. It's uh , yeah.

27:18

Back to the root causes. This is, this is

27:20

something I dove deep in

27:22

the research and really working

27:25

with , um , my Chinese doctor

27:27

and acupuncture and Eastern medicine

27:29

really found this is so valuable

27:32

that there's so many different

27:34

things to the mind, body, spirit that's going

27:36

on that, you know, sometimes we

27:39

really need, you know, you need a

27:41

team of professionals like acupuncturists

27:43

, a medical doctor, a coach, you

27:45

know, to really, in your

27:48

case you only got to build a team

27:50

to overcome this. And that's, you

27:52

know , all these root causes are

27:54

really come out of Eastern

27:56

medicine. And my experience

27:59

with working with a Chinese medicine,

28:01

how deep,

28:04

you know, when you go to the Chinese doctor, it's like

28:06

a not a 15 minute am I

28:08

look at my computer and take notes. It's more of a three

28:10

hour or deal with the

28:12

mind body. You're it .

28:14

Yeah. Let me break that. Let me just,

28:16

let me just ask you the question like a naive,

28:18

like what the hell kind of person,

28:21

you know, you hear somebody like, Oh you go to a Chinese doctor

28:23

or whatever. You know, we get so stuck in this

28:25

Western medicine thing. And

28:27

so I, I know all

28:29

the discussion behind this, but I want to just find and ask

28:31

you so you can debunk it really simple for some people

28:33

that might hear this and think it's a bunch of baloney

28:35

, you know, tell me the difference between Western

28:38

and Eastern medicine and the value . You've kind of described

28:40

it throughout, but just give me the like the

28:42

cliff notes of like why it's so important

28:44

to have your mind open to it.

28:46

Yeah, so really the first thing is

28:48

there's a lot of science that

28:50

goes from quantum mechanics to

28:53

health to um , medicine

28:55

that really our thoughts and our emotions

28:57

are so tied to our body

29:00

that, you know, like I said before, like I

29:02

, I had our brain tumor. Like that is

29:04

a real concern. Like if you think that all the time

29:06

it's going to happen to you, like these thoughts are

29:08

real, they do have a manifestation

29:11

if they linger long enough and, and

29:13

Eastern medicine really does take that into

29:15

account of your emotion.

29:18

Okay . And you're really angry. Say, well, the

29:20

acupuncturist is going to see that, Oh,

29:22

your liver is really lit up and you need these

29:25

needles. It's clear that energy as

29:27

you're so angry, your liver is like overtaxed

29:29

with that. Emotionally , every organ

29:32

is tied to an emotion in Eastern

29:34

medicine. And that sounds,

29:36

that sounds so weird, but the

29:38

way the body works is emotional.

29:41

It's mental. It's if the whole

29:43

human existence is a holistic

29:46

organism, it's not just nowhere . Western

29:48

medicine is, boy , you can just take this pill for

29:50

anxiety and it's going to change

29:52

your thoughts. It's going to change the way you feel. And

29:54

that's just not really correct in my

29:56

mind. There is some, you know,

29:58

chemical imbalances that, that Western

30:01

medicine can work with. And again, this is

30:03

my opinion. Um , I really do believe

30:05

in Eastern medicine, in junction

30:07

with Western medicine is really

30:09

a true , uh, test the

30:11

time when we do need those

30:14

ancient wisdoms and we do need modern

30:16

science. We need to put those together.

30:18

We really have something carpool but to

30:21

the gate either or, it's not really successful

30:24

in my experience. And I really do

30:26

think that foundations should be alternative

30:29

medicine and really gone to that consciousness

30:31

level of what am I thinking? What

30:34

am I feeling? How is that affecting

30:36

my body? How is that affecting my relationship?

30:39

My claim answers your whole

30:41

life spectrum of what you know,

30:43

this consciousness feeling,

30:46

thought, experience. How is that affecting

30:48

my reality right now? That's

30:51

Eastern medicine.

30:52

I don't know . I don't know why that's like striking

30:54

an emotional cord with me cause it's like

30:56

I hear you talk about it and my mind starts to

30:59

real through different things that I struggle with. And

31:02

um, you know, and I , I know that I need

31:04

to do better about practicing

31:07

more of the natural medicine and , and

31:09

I'm not , I may just say I'm gonna ask you a personal question

31:11

of something that I'm struggling with and maybe some

31:13

other people do too, and see what, like your

31:16

thoughts are like how I can immediately,

31:20

you know, how I can subside from some , the anxieties

31:22

. Let me give you an example of something that I just dealt with

31:24

this weekend and it's happens every time that I

31:26

do. This is, so I go to the high country

31:29

of , to the wilderness, take horses . And

31:32

what I love about it, well obviously there's

31:34

so many, I mean the list is forever, but

31:36

besides all of the regular things about being outdoors

31:38

and really when you talk about

31:40

flow, my flow is being

31:42

in the woods with the horses. You know, you have

31:44

to be so focused on this G

31:46

, this giant beast that could kill

31:49

you at any moment if they take the wrong step

31:51

or change their mind about something. But

31:53

I'm up there and that's like my Zin . That's where I like to be

31:55

and I can shut off and my phone doesn't work

31:57

up there and I'm just

32:00

chopped off from all of the anxieties that

32:02

I leave back home. And I'm able to,

32:05

like, there's some PTSD stuff I deal

32:07

with and there's some other things and I'm, for some reason

32:09

I can just block it out and it's gone. It's not that

32:11

I'm even blocking, it just floats away. And

32:14

then when it's time

32:16

to pack up and it's time to go back

32:18

down into service, like the

32:20

night before, I can't sleep. I get really stressed

32:22

and irritable and I mean I literally

32:25

go into like a little depression packing

32:27

up and then driving down the mountain and

32:29

then my next day is just like, it's not,

32:31

there's anything terrible waiting for me. It's just

32:34

all of the life stressors and

32:36

I can't, I'm trying to find that medium of like

32:39

the Zen of being up there and then going back into

32:41

it, but floating back

32:43

into it to where it's not so depressing. Does

32:46

that make any sense to you or is that it's just happens

32:48

to be a challenge. I'm just hit up against the wall with

32:50

and I'm like, what do I do about this?

32:52

Yeah, that is, that is so common in

32:54

our modern day. It's uh , everybody

32:56

has that same reaction and it's , it is

32:58

physiological. It is mental. And , and

33:00

really what's going on is, is in

33:03

my mind, the first thing is

33:05

being outdoors and in nature and

33:08

it's the negative ions from the earth.

33:10

It actually really does those negative ions

33:12

really do work with the body and change

33:14

your energy system and actually ground you.

33:17

So your energy is actually flowing

33:20

to the earth and it's, you know, you maybe you've seen

33:22

the word grounding. It's kind of like a hype word right

33:24

now, but it really is so important to be.

33:26

Yeah, I've studied that. So I answered that .

33:28

Yeah. Walking out doors barefoot and really

33:30

just breathing in the natural air and you

33:33

know, seeing the trees and the colors.

33:36

And then on top of that, there's the sunlight

33:39

aspect that really our circadian rhythm

33:41

is so awesome. All the technology

33:44

and all the computers and all the blue lights

33:46

that no , our circadian rhythms are so

33:48

off that when we go out to the earth it's like you

33:51

can sleep perfectly. We feel better.

33:53

We have so much more vibrant

33:55

life than us. Um, and then

33:58

another, another aspect to it is , you

34:00

know, there, there is science coming on this and

34:02

uh, the wife by the five G,

34:05

the whole spectrum of radio

34:07

waves that we get blasted with every day in our modern

34:09

world is it does have an effect on

34:11

us. And you know, the way to really mitigate

34:14

that is grounding every

34:16

morning having like a , a small meditation

34:18

practice or, or first thing

34:20

when you've got side and I've got bed first

34:22

thing in the morning, the glass of water and just like

34:25

taking that stone in and just enjoy that moment.

34:27

First thing. Um , that was really the

34:30

start your circadian rhythm and

34:32

get it syncs the sun but

34:34

grounding is in those negative ions

34:36

is so important and there's devices that you can do

34:38

in your house but really there's nothing

34:40

better than like going outside there

34:43

but then just breathing wonderful

34:45

right now.

34:46

I love that and I just, yeah, I need

34:48

to be more mindful of those things.

34:50

I think cause I even live, I live in a very

34:52

a natural place. If you call

34:54

a bunch of baby goats screaming at you everyday natural

34:57

and you know, all of that stuff. But

35:00

um, I mean, I live on a ranch and you

35:02

know, the outdoors and the dirt is definitely something

35:04

that I am one with, but I just have

35:06

to find a way to, I've been trying to do better

35:08

about miracle mornings and you

35:10

know, be more mindful in the morning and take time

35:13

to reflect. And that just reading

35:15

your book already is just giving me like,

35:17

just starting your book gave me a lot of

35:19

motivation and so I'm really glad

35:21

that we connected and tell

35:23

me, tell me how people can work

35:25

with you more in the future. Like what can they

35:27

do to learn more from you or

35:29

to um, you know, take advantage

35:32

of the resources that you have?

35:33

Yeah , so the first thing they can go to

35:35

my website, it's mountain mind

35:39

tricks.com or they can , uh , send me an

35:41

email and that's a transformation

35:44

and their sports [email protected]

35:48

or they can find me at mountain mind tricks

35:50

on Facebook. And that's the best way

35:52

to contact me or shoot me an email. Yeah,

35:54

I definitely would love to work with people in

35:56

their anxiety and help more,

35:59

much as I can and let time is likely

36:02

before I want to help many people.

36:04

It's like cancel.

36:05

Awesome. And where is the best place? So you mentioned

36:07

those websites and then where all the different places

36:09

where they can purchase your book.

36:11

So Amazon is primarily, and

36:13

there's uh , if you just go into

36:15

the search bar and build

36:17

up books and then I can overcome anxiety,

36:20

like zero, it should pop up or if you

36:22

search my name, you should get my author page. Yep

36:26

. There's , there's a Kindle and a

36:28

paperback version out

36:30

and I have the Kindle and I already know that I want

36:32

the paper back also because I want to make

36:34

notes, I need to do some serious dog

36:36

earring and flagging and noting.

36:38

And so, cause like you said, it's kind of more of

36:41

a workbook and then , um , so I'm wanting

36:43

it on paper for sure. And I want

36:45

to do some future interviews with you and really

36:47

kind of do more micro breakdown things

36:49

of some of this stuff that people are struggling

36:51

with. And cause a lot of this podcast

36:54

is stressful. Like a lot of it is about stressors

36:56

and people that are under stress and their reactions.

36:59

And that's what causes so many of the, you

37:01

know, the difficulties going on in a lot of our workplace

37:03

lives in our personal lives. So I

37:05

am hoping that you will do some more interviews with me in the future.

37:08

Oh, of course. I'd love to come back and you

37:10

know when you do buy the book you get a free guided

37:12

meditation for anxiety is

37:14

included in there. So don't,

37:17

don't miss that.

37:18

Okay. I won't now

37:20

where, where are we talking from? Where are you

37:22

at right now? I forgot to ask.

37:23

I am, I am in a Bitterroot

37:26

Valley, Montana, just South of Missoula.

37:28

Oh, how sad. So ugly there. It must be

37:30

terrible.

37:30

I have finally got our first , uh,

37:33

first year degrees left.

37:34

Oh, I was going to ask you how the winter is hitting

37:36

already.

37:38

Yup . Yup . Good folded smelling already, but it's a

37:40

beautiful place.

37:41

Oh , the Bitterroot. Yep , they're on . I used to live

37:43

in Hamilton and Victor and up in

37:45

Darby. So yeah, it's a beautiful,

37:48

beautiful area. Well Thomas, I

37:50

thank you so much because I

37:53

could just keep going and going and, but

37:55

I want people to see your book,

37:57

check it out, reach out to you because

38:00

I know that we are just barely flickering

38:02

some ideas in people's minds and a lot of people are gonna

38:05

want to go much deeper. So thank

38:07

you very much. And everybody get out there , checkout

38:10

Thomas' book on Amazon, check out his website.

38:12

All this information will be in the show notes. And

38:15

what he really could probably use from all of

38:17

us is some reviews. So be

38:19

sure to go on amazon.com leave him a review.

38:22

You can read it in any way and

38:24

leave him a review. Or even if you've just seen

38:26

another friend's copy or you've seen part of it, you can still

38:28

go on there and leave a review. Um, even

38:30

about this, just learning what you did today

38:32

about his book, you can leave a review on there. So

38:35

please do that. And with that,

38:37

Thomas, thank you so much for being with

38:39

us. Is there anything else that you'd like to add?

38:42

Uh, no. I think that's it. I think we did

38:44

pretty good and thank you so much for , for

38:46

having me and look forward to more interviews.

38:48

We'll talk to [inaudible] .

38:50

That sounds great. Thanks

38:52

again, Thomas Warren for being here with us on up

38:54

in flames and to everyone out

38:56

there, please take a look at Thomas's book.

38:59

It's literally a life

39:01

changer, maybe being a life saver.

39:04

So please check that out and remember that up

39:06

in flames is powered by you.

39:09

I need your support. I need your help. Please

39:12

help me cover the cost of making all of this happen.

39:14

Go to patrion.com/up in

39:16

flames podcast or check out Abby

39:18

bolt.com and find out how you can help

39:20

keep this going forward. Thank

39:23

you so much for everything you guys remember

39:25

to lead with fire and choose the

39:27

hard right over easy silence.

39:40

[inaudible] .