0:05

Hello and welcome. Useful idiots. I'm Katie

0:07

Helper. And I'm aromatic. Hey everybody

0:09

you fortieth podcast.com is our website

0:11

and Katie heard there was a

0:13

really successful a great event. A.

0:15

New York City this week. That. You did. There.

0:18

Was yeah I was with a live

0:20

show at the People Farm with Ronnie

0:22

Cowlick and Abby Martin and Cloudy Duckworth.

0:24

I was a great discussion. you can

0:26

find it at if you miss at

0:28

live you can find a you tube

0:30

that complicated help or show. It. Was

0:32

a great time. Sold out with so now. While.

0:35

Now and we gave proceeds from

0:37

the Text That ticket sales to

0:39

We Are Not Numbers which is

0:41

a mentorship program cofounded by the

0:44

late. Were. Five Hour Rear who

0:46

was killed by Israel and in Un

0:48

tuck in a targeted assassination. Or

0:50

let's get to our for basic food groups.

0:53

I have democrats og and for Democrats are

0:55

we're going to turn to someone who is

0:57

easy to forget about. Because. Show

1:00

Me Pops In for a public appearance

1:02

occasionally and with Com O. Harris the

1:04

Vice President of United States. here she

1:06

is on the view. Talking.

1:09

About first about. To. Really

1:11

important things: her connection, the young people,

1:14

Because. As we all know, Katie. Com.

1:16

Layers is basically the voice of the youth.

1:18

Right now I'm in a soccer ball. Israel's.

1:21

Right to defend itself with com or

1:23

is very passionate about of course. I'm

1:26

many say that one of your

1:28

many strains. As a surrogate is your

1:30

connection to young people who says that

1:32

many air and many hook that of

1:34

them who's ever do the could actually

1:36

be by never heard that before. Like.

1:39

That I missed that talking point? Is that a thing? I.

1:41

Had a yeah, I've never even heard it's a thing.

1:43

Honestly, I mean she's young and and biden, so there's

1:46

that. Yes, Your connection T e People

1:48

younger than the A job eighty one

1:50

is being closer in age to them

1:52

The right and I believe that to

1:54

be true. Now matters. Between eighteen and

1:56

twenty nine years. old stand out

1:58

as disapproving the way the Biden

2:01

administration is handling the Israel-Hamas

2:03

war. They

2:05

do not. How can anyone honestly call

2:07

it Israel-Hamas? As if it's the country

2:09

of Israel, the government of Israel versus

2:12

just Hamas and not Palestine

2:15

and Palestinians and Gazans. Yes.

2:18

At least Gazans, at least Gaza. At least call

2:20

it Israel versus Gaza. Yes. All

2:23

those Hamas tanks and airplanes striking

2:26

Tel Aviv, you know, and Israel is just trying

2:28

to defend itself. As

2:31

if this is a war of two equal sides. It's

2:34

a massacre. That's what this is. It's not

2:36

a war. It's a massacre. Support sending weapons

2:38

and money to Israel. They

2:40

are advocating for a humanitarian ceasefire.

2:44

How does the administration respond to

2:46

the concerns of this very important

2:50

part of the democratic voter base? So

2:53

let's start with this. And

2:56

you're right, Sunny. In fact, in

2:58

the fall, I embarked on what

3:01

I called a college tour and

3:03

met with overseas. What

3:05

a clever name for her tour,

3:07

a college tour. It shows how connected she

3:09

is to the youth. Yes. Yes. Only

3:12

someone with the pulse of the youth could

3:14

come up with such a clever use of

3:17

language like that, what I call

3:19

a college tour. Yes. Yeah. I

3:21

like to call it a college

3:24

tour. Yeah. 15,000

3:27

students across the country. I

3:30

just have to say I love Gen Z, by the way, I

3:33

think it's a spectacular generation. And

3:36

but all that to say, you're absolutely

3:38

right. I have talked with young people,

3:40

many around the country, and

3:42

I've heard them. I see them and

3:44

I understand. I

3:46

understand. But I think

3:49

it's important that while we

3:52

understand where they're coming from, which

3:54

I do, that we not lose

3:56

sight of the context, which

3:59

is Let's just go back to

4:01

October 7th. We

4:04

can't deny the significance

4:06

of a vicious,

4:09

brutal attack that

4:11

caused the death of 1200 innocent

4:13

people, a lot of them young people who are

4:15

just attending a concert, women

4:18

who were brutally assaulted and raped.

4:20

And again, as someone who

4:22

spent a lot of my career focused

4:24

on those kinds of crimes, the horror

4:26

of it. And

4:30

all of that to also then say

4:32

Israel has a right to

4:34

defend itself. We would. And

4:38

how it does matters. There

4:42

have been far too many innocent Palestinians that

4:44

have been killed. The president

4:47

and I and many members of our administration

4:49

have been very clear. I've

4:51

been on over, I think, 14, 15

4:54

calls that the president has had with Bibi

4:56

Netanyahu about what Israel

4:58

must do to

5:00

protect innocent civilians. We

5:04

all want this to end as

5:06

soon as possible. And how

5:08

it ends matters. Wow.

5:12

How it ends matters. It's

5:14

interesting. So when Palestinians try to

5:16

provide contacts for October 7th, and

5:19

the context specifically is the

5:21

decades of occupation and ethnic

5:23

cleansing that preceded it. They're

5:26

accused of being Hamas supporters

5:29

or justifying killing civilians. But

5:32

Kamala, in trying to contextualize

5:34

the slaughter of more

5:36

than at this point, 24,000 Palestinians

5:39

can just point to October 7th. And

5:42

that's supposed to automatically justify

5:45

everything that Israel does after October 7th.

5:48

By the way, she says she references

5:51

Hamas raping people. That's

5:53

a claim that's been made by Israel. It

5:55

was refused to cooperate with the UN investigation of

5:58

that. There is no forensic or physical evidence. evidence

6:01

and the purported witnesses which are the only

6:03

source for these claims have

6:05

been very contradictory and told

6:08

demonstrably false tales

6:11

and I'm not afraid

6:13

to say that because it's just so easily

6:15

proven. We've done that at the Grey Zone

6:17

so is electronic Antifada and Mondo Weiss. So

6:20

that is not something you can say as

6:23

established fact. It's a claim and it should

6:25

be investigated but it has not been proven

6:27

at all and in fact there

6:30

are ample reasons to challenge it. But you

6:32

can see there how tortured she is in

6:34

trying to come up with a justification for

6:37

her policy which is supporting mass murder and

6:39

she's not very good at it. No but

6:42

you know she does it in such a useful way Aaron.

6:45

She does it in a way that really reminds you of

6:47

how connected she is with the youth. Well she loves Gen

6:49

Z. I'm sure the Gen Z people who saw that who

6:52

had reservations about Biden are now going to not

6:55

only vote themselves but help get out

6:57

the vote. Yeah I do love

6:59

the part where she took the moment to just really show

7:02

how much she loves Gen Z. Like I

7:04

don't recall anyone ever doing that for Generation X.

7:06

True. Or Generation Y or Millennials.

7:09

Millennials yeah. Yeah in fact Biden said

7:11

explicitly he had no empathy for Millennials.

7:13

There we go. There we go. That

7:15

was a great moment. Well on our

7:17

next college tour. Well

7:19

we're calling it a college tour yeah. Yeah her

7:22

next college. She'll be she'll be

7:24

there'll be just massive crowds of

7:26

Millennials and other generations

7:29

demanding that they show that

7:31

Kamala show them love the way she showed

7:33

love to Generation Z because people like the

7:35

youth just love Kamala and just want her

7:37

approval. Yeah she's had a dangerous precedent. Yeah

7:40

she's gonna have to dole out a lot

7:42

of love even more than sure

7:44

she has. Yeah wow. Well

7:46

speaking of terrible takes on Palestine for

7:49

my Republican suck let's take a look at what

7:51

Nikki Haley had to say about Palestinians. You

7:53

know they should be going through the Rafah gate and

7:55

Egypt take them but I've always said that you know

7:57

what you should have is they should go to Pro-health.

8:00

The my country's cutter, Iran. You know

8:02

if you send them there Turkey, those

8:04

are pro Hamas countries. That's where they

8:06

should go there on the run for

8:09

their lives, taking whatever they can, their

8:11

kids in tow they're not able to

8:13

get into Egypt are useless even later

8:15

to Tudur. it's as in that telling

8:18

that Egypt's once. In a in

8:20

a town. And take them

8:22

while Egypt take them because they

8:25

don't trust which ones are terrorists

8:27

and which ones aren't It's a

8:29

sad state of affairs for the

8:31

the reality of that evil is

8:33

very clear. An Arab country suit.

8:35

Arab countries have very much always

8:37

been cautious and know the threats

8:39

that Iran can place. so she

8:42

suggesting something that as or interviewer

8:44

points out is actually like logistically

8:46

and physically impossible given that they

8:48

can't even get into Egypt. but

8:50

instead. Of pivoting ah, modifying

8:52

which. He saying acknowledging that it's

8:55

it's complicated by that Same for me

8:57

and she just pivot to saying. How

8:59

much? That proves how evil the Palestinians

9:01

are that even Egypt, even other Arab

9:04

countries won't take them in, which is

9:06

a favorite. Talking points: Or

9:08

mean it's it's insane racism. The premise

9:10

that they should go somewhere else has

9:12

because these are Arab countries. rent it.

9:15

so it is. It's so races. But

9:17

also to answer her question, why won't

9:19

Egypt age impulse to use all the

9:21

there's two. Main. Reasons for first

9:23

is. Why? Should Egypt except

9:25

Israel's ethnic cleansing like why should

9:28

it Egypt be of absorb the

9:30

consequences of Israel's decision to ethnically

9:32

cleanse past the lift arm. And.

9:35

The other reason is I mean to the

9:37

extent of easier of a bit easier to

9:39

cooperate with the Us missile as could be

9:41

just as a client state of the Us

9:43

now be get billions of dollars in. Military

9:47

aid. They're. Totally reliant

9:49

on us and they've partnered

9:52

with Israel. Because they

9:54

don't like Hamas. And so that's

9:56

why. So Egypt's total. It's it's. It's

9:58

of told the pocket of us in Israel. But also, even

10:01

if that weren't true, there's like a

10:03

principle here. It's just like, why should other countries

10:06

accept Israel's intention to ethnically cleanse Palestinian

10:08

land? They don't want to be accessories

10:10

to that. It's disgusting.

10:13

I can't believe she's saying this. It's actually very

10:15

on brand for her. For isn't

10:17

that weird? Let's look at

10:19

how Israeli spokesperson, Ilhan Levi,

10:22

who of course is not even

10:24

born in Israel. He's from, I think, the UK. Most

10:27

of these Israeli spokespeople are not even born

10:30

in Israel. But here he is speaking to

10:32

Channel 4 News. And

10:34

when the anchor tries to remind

10:37

him that Israel's occupying Palestinian

10:39

land, watch how

10:42

Ilhan Levi responds. He basically responds

10:44

by threatening this anchor. Occasional

10:46

misdemeanors. We're talking about more than 23, 24,000 people

10:48

killed. Christian,

10:51

that's a short and very number of civilian casualties. And

10:55

it's tragic. And it's tragic. Christian,

10:59

everyone who has been killed since October 7th would still

11:01

be alive if Hamas had not declared war. If

11:04

Hamas were not fighting this war from densely

11:06

populated areas and no one else would be

11:08

hurt if Hamas were rendered and laid down

11:10

in arms. You're right. You

11:13

can say this would not have happened had

11:15

October 7th not happened. They would say October

11:17

7th wouldn't have happened had Israel not occupied

11:19

Gaza in the first place. It's

11:22

a very scary of trying in

11:24

any way to contextualize the atrocities

11:26

of October 7th. I'm explaining

11:28

what they would say. I'm not contextualizing. I'm

11:30

saying. No, anchor, you actually

11:32

are contextualizing and it's fair to do that.

11:34

That's what you do. Because

11:37

this Israeli spokesperson was just trying

11:39

to contextualize quote unquote the

11:41

atrocities since October 7th by

11:43

invoking October 7th was totally

11:45

fair to invoke all

11:48

the Israeli atrocities before October 7th

11:51

that resulted from Israel's occupation, which is

11:53

what this anchor did. And what is

11:55

the Israeli government spokesperson's Response?

11:57

It's to threaten the anchor. I'd be very

11:59

wary. I'd. Be very wary bar.

12:02

I'm trying to mention the fact the were an

12:04

occupying power. That. His response. Yeah,

12:07

it so am. I didn't even know to say

12:10

at this point. it's just the double standards are

12:12

in terms of who is. Allowed to create

12:14

contacts and provide context and he's not

12:16

allowed to is just stunning. And.

12:19

The Idea history starts October seventh.

12:22

This so a historical. But.

12:24

Katie Israel does have the right to defend

12:27

itself from context. Yeah, you're right,

12:29

and context is actually. Anti Semitic. There we

12:31

go, We have a hate crime even

12:33

threatening regarding news anchors. Totally fair. Yeah,

12:35

a little with your pets which itself

12:38

effects. Of. What an integral and

12:40

over there so entitled. Then there

12:42

I a coddled that they're just

12:44

comfortable being total bullies. Hundred.

12:46

Percent. On: So disgusting and.

12:49

Will for isn't that terrible. We

12:51

have. Ah, Donald.

12:53

Trump. Imploring. People

12:55

to vote. Democracy is really on the

12:57

line and so on line that he's

13:00

willing to risk people. Ah, Lives.

13:02

The Sega lock. So you want

13:05

to save a more casual mode.

13:07

You Must go Pockets! I'm all. For

13:10

said. You

13:13

can't. Even

13:20

afford. And then passed away as well.

13:24

So. Guys you know, Democracy.

13:27

Is on the line. It's. Literally a

13:29

question of life and death. Not just

13:31

democracy, but forward voters. And for Per

13:34

Trump, he wants you dead It said

13:36

die. Like. It's okay if

13:38

if if you if you are with

13:40

your last breath. Owing that

13:42

lever punching the screen, however you both.

13:45

It'll. Be worth it. Yeah. I mean

13:47

his critics on Msnbc and Cnn. I was target

13:49

what I was running and democracy. I mean I

13:51

see a guy there are so passionate about democracy.

13:54

That he's willing to encourage death for.

13:56

You know what could be more walk

13:59

to? Gotta yeah. Like What? I

14:01

mean how much more? Keep committed to

14:03

democracy them by shifting your. Voters.

14:05

To die for for them in a

14:08

fair outing from Trump and other your

14:10

for me to visit. Were.

14:17

Really say to be hanging onto

14:19

the shell and you find seen

14:21

a He is a former and

14:23

see member of parliament of South

14:25

Africa. He. Is the author of the

14:28

Shadow World inside the Global Arms Trade, which is

14:30

often been turned into a film. Is also the

14:32

author of After The Party. And

14:34

he's going to talk to us

14:36

as a South African and and

14:39

also as the son of Holocaust

14:41

survivor. He's going to talk to

14:43

us about South Africa's case against

14:46

Israel, as the International Court of

14:48

Justice and lot more. And

14:50

the and see is of course to

14:52

add enough Mandela's political party as South

14:54

Africa and as well as here and

14:56

to actually worked with Nelson Mandela. So.

14:59

Without. Any further ado and you find seen. As

15:04

you find seen Thank you So. Much for joining. Great

15:06

to be with you! Thanks for inviting. Me: To

15:09

start off by telling us about. Your

15:11

own life, your biography, and

15:13

how your kind of personal

15:15

experience, Shaped your politics, Yeah.

15:18

Absolutely. So.

15:21

I'm South African, as most people probably go

15:24

from my accent. Or

15:26

not. Based in London, but grew up largely

15:28

in South Africa and occasionally in Vienna, Austria,

15:30

where my mother was from. And

15:33

my mom was actually a holocaust survivors. She

15:35

survived the war in Vienna. or it's so

15:37

when it's not many choose to do. Said

15:39

she was hidden in the course of three

15:41

and a half years. And. Whenever

15:43

the Gestapo the Ss were in the area

15:45

which is of workings Us district of Vienna,

15:48

she's rolled up into a carpet. The carpet

15:50

was pushed up against the war in case

15:52

they managed to come in. and

15:54

see and my dad who's south

15:56

african met in london when back

15:58

to south africa together From

16:00

a very young age, my mom would

16:03

explain to me what her

16:05

life experiences had been. It

16:08

sort of motivated her to get involved in the

16:10

anti-apartheid struggle in South Africa. And

16:13

especially the fact that for her, you know, never

16:15

again coined in the aftermath

16:17

of the Holocaust wasn't about

16:19

never again just for Jews. It was about

16:21

never again for everybody. So we found ourselves

16:24

in a similar struggle in South Africa, obviously.

16:27

And I got involved in the struggle at

16:29

a very young age. I started working in

16:31

the townships and squatter settlements around Cape Town

16:34

where I grew up and

16:36

was eventually recruited into the ANC when it

16:38

was still a banned and illegal organization. That's

16:40

the African National Congress of Nelson

16:43

Mandela and Oliver Tambo and various

16:45

others. Had to

16:47

leave the country very suddenly in the mid

16:49

1980s to avoid serving in the apartheid military

16:53

but was able to go back a

16:55

few years later once the

16:57

ANC had been unbanned and the first

16:59

political prisoners released. I worked

17:01

as a facilitator in the constitutional negotiations

17:03

that led to our first democratic elections

17:05

in 94. And

17:08

in those elections, I was a candidate for

17:10

parliament for the ANC. I

17:12

served in parliament for seven and a half

17:14

years, including the whole of Mandela's term, which

17:18

was quite an experience. Not so

17:20

much after he retired, had a big

17:22

falling out with his successor who decided

17:24

to spend $10 billion on weapons that

17:27

the country had absolutely no need of

17:29

and have barely used until today. About

17:31

$350 million of bribes were paid. So

17:35

the ANC forced me out of parliament the

17:37

night before they were due

17:39

to get rid

17:41

of me in parliament because we have a pure

17:43

PR system. I resigned. I

17:46

wrote my first book, something called After the Party,

17:49

on my experiences in South Africa, trying

17:51

to investigate the S.A.M.S. deal and

17:54

was surprised by the reaction to the book. I got

17:57

people contacting me from all over the world. who

18:00

were saying, oh my goodness, no one writes on the

18:02

arms trade. And providing me

18:04

with information, asking me to work with them

18:07

on cases, a lot of prosecutors, a lot

18:09

of whistleblowers, sources. And

18:11

so did a book called The Shadow World Inside

18:13

the Global Arms Trade. That was the first book

18:15

on the global arms trade written since 1979. And

18:19

it came out the first edition in about late 2011. It's

18:22

now in its 10th or 11th edition. It

18:25

was made into an award-winning documentary film

18:28

made by Belgian director, Johan Grimamprez, who I

18:30

worked with very closely on it, also just

18:32

called Shadow World. And

18:34

since then have really been an activist

18:37

and a campaigner on the

18:39

arms trade, anti-militarism, anti-racism.

18:43

And have an organization

18:45

in London called Shadow World Investigations.

18:47

We do deep investigative

18:49

work into corruption,

18:52

what we call state capture,

18:55

and into the arms trade. And the way

18:57

in which it affects not just how we

18:59

live and die, but also how we are

19:01

governed. And what is

19:04

the significance of South

19:06

Africa bringing the genocide

19:08

case against Israel? The

19:10

fact that the country to do this is

19:12

South Africa. Can you talk about the context

19:15

and significance of this? I

19:17

mean, I think it's hugely significant for a number

19:19

of reasons. South Africa

19:21

is obviously a country that lived

19:24

under a racist

19:26

apartheid oligarchy for over 350 years

19:31

and struggled and won

19:33

liberation from that racist

19:35

system. And there are not many

19:37

countries that can say that in the world. So

19:40

it's a country that has, I would argue,

19:43

a moral platform from

19:46

which to talk about issues

19:48

of racism, brutality,

19:52

crimes against humanity, genocide, etc.

19:55

So that's the first obvious

19:57

symbolic importance. And

20:00

it's really important to be aware of the

20:02

fact that South African struggle for liberation was

20:05

always seen as what we would describe in

20:07

those days as a fraternal struggle with a

20:10

Palestinian struggle for liberation They were

20:12

incredibly closely linked the ANC and the

20:14

PLO particularly in the days of Yassia

20:16

Arafat Who I met he

20:18

was one of the first foreign leaders to come

20:20

and address our parliament in South Africa very

20:23

very close relationships and interlocking

20:25

struggles in many ways And

20:28

it's a struggle that you know, we

20:30

shouldn't forget when Nelson Mandela emerged after 27

20:33

years of imprisonment He

20:36

didn't sort of Dance and shout

20:38

and say yay, I'm free But instead he

20:40

said our freedom is

20:42

incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinian

20:44

people surprise have you

20:48

Have you been about the furor

20:50

that your remarks

20:52

about The

20:54

Palestinians and that whole situation

20:57

Cuba and and The

20:59

the flap that has pre-seeked followed

21:02

in the wake of those remarks. Has that been

21:04

a surprise to you at all? I was

21:07

more astonished than surprised You

21:13

must remember that

21:15

when in 1960 At

21:20

Leaders like Oliver Tambo and the young

21:22

men sitting at the back there Tabun

21:24

Bege went out of the country One

21:28

of the first steps that they took Was

21:32

to visit the west and to ask

21:34

for assistance In

21:37

the course of that visit they came to the

21:39

United States of America and asked for help They

21:44

did not get that help They Went

21:48

to Cuba and the Cuba

21:50

on the spot pledge

21:52

support and actually gave it Long

21:56

before the west could do anything to

21:58

assist us I

22:01

am surprised that anybody should now

22:03

expect us to

22:06

condemn Cuba, to

22:08

condemn the PLO, which has

22:10

been working with us right from the beginning

22:13

and helping us in our problems. It

22:15

is totally unrealistic. It

22:18

is a typical attitude of

22:21

countries which really do

22:23

not approach the problem of South Africa

22:25

from the point of view of the

22:28

liberation struggle in South Africa, which

22:30

approach these problems from the point of view

22:32

of their own interest. What

22:35

that view wants is

22:37

that the African National Congress and the

22:39

liberation movement in South Africa should

22:42

be used for the purpose of

22:45

conducting vendettas, enemies

22:49

of the West. We must

22:51

join that vendetta in

22:54

order to advance the interest of the West. That

22:56

we will not do. So the

22:58

struggle of the Palestinian people is really

23:00

at the forefront and remains at the

23:02

forefront of South African politics. And

23:05

I think therein again lies enormous significance. But

23:07

then there is a slightly darker side that

23:09

I think made it relevant too. And

23:13

that is that Israel and

23:15

apartheid South Africa had an

23:17

incredibly close relationship. They were

23:19

both pariah states. And

23:23

it is extraordinary. I experienced a sense

23:25

of deja vu at the moment when

23:27

I hear Israeli spokespeople talk about the

23:29

United Nations and the international rule of

23:31

law. It reminds me almost

23:33

to the word of how our

23:36

leaders in apartheid South Africa would

23:38

rubbish the external world and particularly

23:40

organizations like the UN that had

23:42

imposed sanctions, etc., etc. And

23:45

Israel really assisted

23:47

South Africa to

23:50

remain a brutal apartheid state

23:52

in that they provided huge amounts

23:54

of weaponry to

23:56

the apartheid state, significant amounts of

23:59

military training. in the

24:01

horrific techniques that they had used

24:03

and obviously continue to use in

24:05

the occupied territories. But most

24:08

important of all, enabled

24:10

South Africa to become a nuclear

24:13

power. And I remember quite viscerally,

24:16

sitting with my mother, I was 12 years

24:18

old, and television had only very recently come

24:20

to South Africa because it was

24:22

seen as a sort of corrupting influence on

24:25

our pure Christian state that happened to

24:27

be extremely racist. Seeing

24:29

our Prime Minister, who at the time

24:32

was a guy called BJ Foster, who

24:34

had been a most brutal justice

24:36

minister for many years. I mean,

24:41

a person very engaged in the struggle

24:44

who he had ordered the

24:46

police to arrest was

24:48

thrown out of the 10th floor

24:50

window of police headquarters in central

24:52

Johannesburg on Foster's

24:54

direct instructions. And

24:57

they were these TV pictures of Foster, who

25:00

during the Second World War had

25:02

led a Nazi support

25:04

in militia called the Osova Brantva,

25:08

and had been interned because

25:10

of that in what

25:13

was called the concentration camp. Seeing

25:16

him representing apartheid South Africa

25:18

as a neo-Nazi, not

25:21

only arriving in Israel and being given full state

25:23

honors, but paying his

25:25

respects to the victims of the Holocaust at

25:27

Yad Vashem, when

25:30

he was an unreconstructed Nazi himself.

25:33

And that was the trip on which

25:35

him and Shimon Peres, who was then the

25:37

Israeli Prime Minister, did the

25:39

deal that enabled them both

25:41

to become nuclear powers. So

25:44

the history is very closely intertwined.

25:46

I think all of those reasons

25:49

give enormous importance and symbolism to

25:51

South Africa having made that what

25:54

I thought, I must say, was

25:56

an exceptional submission in its detail,

25:59

in its legal art. argument in its impact and

26:01

its force. But also

26:03

finally, you know, the fact

26:05

that we had representatives

26:10

of all aspects of South African society,

26:12

a society that had been so racially

26:14

divided on the

26:16

basis of legislation for so long. And

26:20

those who had been previously oppressed are

26:23

now the top lawyers, the judges,

26:25

etc, etc, appearing before the highest

26:27

international court that only looks at

26:30

the crime of crimes, which

26:32

I think says something about, you know,

26:34

despite the insane

26:37

fears of white South Africa in the

26:39

last years of the apartheid regime, that

26:43

just represents the fact that a

26:45

racially divided state can live harmoniously

26:47

together. And it doesn't mean the

26:49

eradication of the minority

26:51

people in that area. And I think that

26:53

is also pointing a

26:55

direction forward for Israel-Palestine that

26:57

I think is very important.

27:00

What did you think of the Israeli team's

27:03

defense at the genocide

27:05

hearing, where they tried

27:07

to argue that South Africa

27:09

is an ally of Hamas and

27:12

therefore is not credible? Well,

27:14

first of all, it would have been great if

27:17

they could have got their pages organized in numerical

27:19

order. That would have been a start. I've

27:22

lost a page. Some have

27:24

shuffled my papers. Wow. I

27:28

mean, I thought, quite frankly, I

27:30

found it quite difficult to sit through because

27:32

the depth of

27:35

the lies and the deceit, the

27:38

paucity of any legal

27:40

argument, the truly

27:43

pathetic nature of

27:45

the attempt to justify what Israel is

27:47

doing in Gaza was both shameful

27:50

and shameless. And

27:55

you know, to try and brand South

27:57

Africa as an ally of

27:59

Hamas. as

28:01

some sort of arm of the Iranian

28:04

state was embarrassing in the

28:06

extreme when one actually looks at the real

28:08

history. So first of all, South

28:12

Africa, which I'm not at all

28:14

proud of, the ANC and so

28:16

our post apartheid

28:20

government has had very close

28:22

relationships with Saudi Arabia, who

28:25

are Iran's most implacable enemy in

28:28

the region. So

28:31

the absurdity just from that perspective, which doesn't

28:33

mean that South Africa has bad relations with

28:35

Iran. It has sort of

28:37

normal relations with Iran like most

28:39

other states of the global south. But

28:42

it has far better relations with Saudi Arabia

28:44

than it has with Iran. And this goes

28:47

completely over the head of sort of Israeli

28:49

propagandists, first of all. Second

28:51

of all, you know, South Africa

28:53

has never had any formal relationship with

28:56

Hamas that yes, as I

28:58

mentioned, the ANC has had a

29:00

long standing formal relationship with the

29:02

Palestine Liberation Organization. But

29:04

as anybody who knows anything about the

29:06

situation in Palestine would know that

29:09

the PLO and Hamas

29:11

are certainly not the same entity by any

29:13

means. But even if South Africa did have

29:16

some relationship with Hamas, that's

29:19

still in absolutely no way justifies

29:22

the atrocities that have been committed

29:24

against the civilian population in Gaza.

29:26

So it was a completely vacuous

29:28

argument at all possible levels.

29:30

But the thing that struck me most of

29:33

all, and this is by comparison to the

29:35

previous day when South Africa made its submission,

29:37

is that it was completely evidence free. So,

29:40

you know, these claims about

29:42

South Africa's relationship with Hamas and

29:45

Iran, they didn't

29:47

present any indication or evidence of how

29:49

they had come to that conclusion. And

29:51

the reason for that is that there isn't any. But

29:54

the sort of propaganda line that has come out

29:56

of Israel and that we see amongst

29:59

sort of more conservative elements in the

30:01

Jewish community in South Africa and elsewhere

30:03

around the world, but it's repeating this

30:05

complete nonsense that has no basis in

30:08

fact. And

30:10

unfortunately, again, this just

30:12

gave me a sense of the last day

30:15

of the apartheid South African regime where

30:17

all it could do without

30:19

a shred of evidence was

30:21

to cast aspersions on

30:24

those who were opposed

30:26

to it because they

30:28

believed in things like

30:30

equality and justice and

30:33

the international rule of law. And

30:35

going back to the comparison between

30:38

South Africa and Palestine,

30:41

or apartheid, I guess I should say, and those

30:43

two systems, how did they compare? Well,

30:46

it's really interesting because people

30:48

far more learned and far more experienced

30:50

and far more eloquent than me,

30:52

like my former boss Nelson Mandela and

30:55

my former friend and in many

30:57

ways a mentor of mine, Archbishop

30:59

Desmond Tutu, sadly neither of whom

31:01

are with us anymore. I mean, they were

31:04

both, you know, unstinting

31:06

in their descriptions of

31:08

Israel as an apartheid state. And

31:11

the Archbishop went far further and

31:13

described the fact that Israel was

31:16

a far more brutal apartheid state

31:18

than South Africa had ever been. And, you know,

31:21

these are two people who experienced the very worst

31:23

that the apartheid state had to throw at them.

31:26

And so for them to make that

31:29

sort of statement and the primary reason,

31:31

I mean, the Archbishop

31:33

after his first

31:36

visit to the occupied territory was

31:39

actually in floods of tears, as he described

31:41

why he thought the situation was so much

31:43

worse. You know, in

31:45

our so-called bantu stuns or homelands,

31:47

which are sometimes compared to the

31:49

occupied territories, little tiny bits of

31:52

land that were given to the majority of South

31:54

Africans, the black African majority

31:56

where they were all supposed to live, where

31:58

there were no economic prospects. But

32:01

you can move freely into and

32:03

out of those bantustan. You

32:05

know, nothing like the dehumanization of the

32:08

checkpoints. Not

32:10

only between the

32:13

occupied territories in Israel, but even between parts

32:15

of the occupied territories. So to move from

32:17

one part of the West Bank to the

32:19

other, you sometimes have to go through these

32:21

checkpoints. He had never experienced

32:23

dehumanization of that order, where you

32:26

had these young Israeli kids in

32:28

uniforms and submachine guns. Treating

32:31

Palestinians, including elder Palestinians, is

32:33

worse than animals. And

32:36

the fact that the Israeli

32:39

apartheid system has

32:42

separate roads for Israelis and

32:44

Palestinians, separate car number plates,

32:47

which is a degree of

32:52

slightly psychopathic efficiency. Because

32:56

it obviously makes Palestinians much easier

32:58

targets. You know, we never

33:00

had that level of sophistication or efficiency

33:02

in our apartheid system in South Africa.

33:04

But the primary difference that

33:07

I think is so important is

33:09

that apartheid South Africa depended

33:11

very heavily on

33:14

an incredibly cheap, ununionized

33:16

labor force. Because of course trade unions

33:18

were bound in apartheid South Africa, largely.

33:20

There was a period when they went,

33:22

but largely. And

33:25

on that workforce for the functioning of

33:27

a natural resource reliant

33:29

economy. So the jobs

33:32

that white South Africans weren't prepared to do,

33:34

like going down into the very dangerous mines

33:36

to mine out the gold and the diamonds

33:38

and the other natural resources that gave us

33:40

our wealth. Whereas in

33:43

the situation of Israeli apartheid, they

33:45

don't have that same dependence on

33:47

the Palestinian population. And

33:50

as a consequence, and

33:53

it's terrifying even to verbalize this, it

33:55

makes the Palestinian population in the eyes

33:58

of Israel, the Israeli state. state

34:01

as expendable because there

34:03

isn't that economic dependence. And we're seeing that,

34:05

and we've seen that obviously for decades in

34:07

the occupation, but we're perhaps seeing it in

34:09

a stark way over the past two months

34:12

than we ever have been before, where

34:14

it seems as though this Israeli government,

34:16

which is the most right-wing, proudly

34:19

fascist Israeli government in the

34:21

country's history, seems

34:24

willing to

34:27

slaughter an

34:29

indefinite number of Palestinian

34:31

civilians, which

34:34

is something we never saw in apartheid South Africa.

34:36

Of course there were the atrocities at Sharpeville in

34:38

1960, where over 170 women were

34:41

shot in cold

34:45

blood because they were protesting against

34:47

having to carry racist ID books.

34:50

We had Soweto in 1976, where

34:52

schoolchildren over 300 were shot

34:55

dead in cold blood because they

34:57

weren't prepared to learn in

34:59

the language of their oppressor, Afrikaans.

35:02

And we had Boyapatung in the late 1980s, where

35:05

a hostel of ANC-aligned workers

35:08

during our transition period

35:10

were again slaughtered in

35:12

their beds by what we call

35:15

the Third Force, very

35:17

sinister agents of the apartheid state,

35:20

simply because they were ANC supporters.

35:24

But there was never the

35:26

same sort of out-and-out

35:29

assault and destruction with

35:32

every aspect of

35:35

Palestinian life, not only the

35:37

people themselves, that for many

35:39

of us, and Aaron's probably in a better position

35:41

to talk to this than me, but

35:44

for many of us is

35:46

how we define and identify genocide. And

35:49

I'm wondering if you could talk about the political

35:51

consequences of the government of South Africa

35:53

doing this. I mean, they're not just

35:56

standing up to Israel, but

35:58

they're standing up to the U.S. government, powerful

36:00

country in the world, which is the

36:02

sponsor of Israel. And by implication, if

36:04

you're accusing Israel of genocide, you're

36:06

accusing the US of

36:09

sponsoring genocide because this could not happen

36:11

without US military and diplomatic

36:13

support. So can you talk about,

36:15

you know, the courage

36:18

it took here for South Africa to do

36:20

this, especially because they're stepping up

36:23

to defend a people, Palestinian, to have

36:25

no political power at all, nothing

36:27

to offer South Africa in terms

36:29

of a quid pro quo. I mean, this

36:31

truly is a, is

36:33

a humanitarian intervention, uh, at a

36:35

great cost for South Africa. And

36:40

to hear the rest of the interview,

36:42

please go to useful idiots podcast.com. Well,

36:47

I say all hail South Africa. I

36:50

wanted to go to the South African

36:52

consulate this past week and

36:54

kiss the ground outside, and I realized, you know,

36:56

I'm still kissing the ground.

36:59

That's technically in the US. I

37:01

can't do that. It wouldn't, it wouldn't be much point in

37:03

that, but, uh, figuratively, I

37:05

really wanted to kiss the ground of South

37:08

Africa because I'm so grateful for what they

37:10

did. Yeah. Very cool to get Andrew's take

37:12

on it. Yeah, it definitely is. And you

37:14

can follow him on Twitter. He's a great Twitter

37:16

account at Andrew Feinstein. Highly

37:18

recommend that. Yeah. Maybe we can do a live show

37:20

for them. The South African embassy, a live

37:22

taping of useful idiots. We can

37:24

serve, uh, what are they in South Africa? Biltong.

37:27

Uh, no idea. Actually, no idea. They

37:30

have good wine. I know that. Yes,

37:32

they do. Sure. Yeah. They make great

37:34

wine. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Well, everybody

37:37

book your next vacation, uh, in

37:40

South Africa. If you can't make it, you know,

37:42

at least buy some South African

37:44

Biltong or wine or whatever

37:46

other treats you fancy

37:48

because wow, what a service

37:51

they did for humanity by taking Israel

37:53

and its us sponsored a court for

37:55

genocide. Right. And make

37:57

sure you go to useful idiots, podcast.com.

38:00

where you can support the show and get

38:02

all kinds of bonus content.

38:04

We really appreciate your support. Well,

38:06

thank you guys so much and we will see you next week.

38:09

Bye everybody. Bye.

38:12

Thanks so much for listening to and watching

38:14

Useful Idiots. For extended episodes,

38:16

bonus content and our weekly Thursday

38:18

throw down episode, please subscribe

38:21

at usefulidiotspodcast.com. Support the show

38:23

for free by subscribing on

38:25

YouTube, Rumble and wherever you

38:27

get your podcasts. If

38:30

you need some type of, don't forget to rate

38:32

and review. Go to the wellness on

38:34

Twitter at usefulidiotspodcast.com. Thanks

38:36

for supporting independent media. We'll see you

38:38

next week. Bye

38:52

bye.