0:08

Gunnar Austin welcome to validated that

0:10

he got to be here. Yet.

0:13

To I'm excited! Have you hear this has

0:15

been? I think a long time coming. There's

0:17

been a lot of stuff we've been going

0:19

back and forth on on Twitter for years.

0:21

You and totally have been going back and

0:23

forth on Twitter for years and I think

0:25

you are in that class of one of

0:27

the people who is a constant optimistic critic.

0:29

Of. The salon ecosystem in a way

0:32

that a noise some people and one of

0:34

the engineers lot of people like me find

0:36

is deeply appreciative because these systems are nowhere

0:38

near done and so it's a process of

0:41

getting better every day. So I'm excited to

0:43

have you here today! Are

0:45

you have extra much? And I

0:47

really appreciated Noom. With that

0:49

characterization warms my heart. Excellent or we

0:51

got a ton of stuff to get

0:53

to today. I want to kind start

0:55

off with a little bit of your

0:57

interest in block Chain how you kind

0:59

of got started in it and what

1:01

keeps you. Interested. In working

1:03

in this space and the technology. Yeah,

1:06

so I'm a big crypto, currency and

1:08

block chain. Enthused, and I have been

1:10

since. Since. The only

1:12

way to use Bitcoin was running Bitcoin

1:14

core with the Windows July, and the

1:17

only way to use Bitcoin was to.

1:19

Run. This app which is a full node

1:21

in the background and are very like crappy.

1:23

I guess like a D C sharp.net. July.

1:26

Or whatever. I don't know it, it looks bad. And.

1:29

It was ugly. And I got into

1:31

it because I was a high schooler

1:33

who was during like web development and

1:35

making like crappy little games and the

1:37

ability to work out a monetary component

1:39

of my games while being too young

1:41

to have a bank account. Actually,

1:44

Use Bitcoin before I had a debit

1:46

card. I love that and got cut

1:48

it into like how it works a

1:50

little bit because I knew about hash

1:52

functions and signatures. cause of. Like.

1:54

Try to roll my own. Authentication for mode

1:56

little like toy were baggins that I was

1:59

making his fourteen. The answer Like.

2:01

The kind of made sense I mean I

2:03

you I'd door it didn't really know how

2:06

easy the essay words but like I could

2:08

kind of vibe vibe, space, understanding of how

2:10

Bitcoin works and then forward like. Five.

2:12

Six seven years later it actually became something

2:14

you could do for career which was awesome

2:16

and so will recruit which is usually get

2:19

a full time job. Learning. About and

2:21

working on this stuff. No brainer. So.

2:24

My first full time job in the crypto

2:26

currency space was. Twenty. Nineteen

2:28

and I've been in and out.

2:31

But. I've been full time for all

2:33

three years now. Yeah, So that

2:35

original journey from planner out bitcoin

2:37

to the work you're doing today

2:39

it's last year and other places

2:42

is. A pretty. Massive change,

2:44

right? The technology stack is completely different,

2:46

the paradigm at how we use the

2:48

stuff is completely different, and the vision

2:51

of what these things are has also

2:53

changed. A lot since as early

2:55

days I have a what part of.

2:58

The. Larger, both declining crypto culture,

3:00

you feel like you've moved west than

3:02

you've said have grown worse than what?

3:04

Have you grown further away from Gusher

3:06

here? So. I still

3:08

think that bitcoin. And just

3:11

currency and payments. And like

3:13

money is. The main

3:15

use case. It's the one use case

3:17

that I'm really sure about. There.

3:19

Are. You. Know a lot of

3:21

other things that people try to use for these

3:24

days, are interested in trying to use it for

3:26

these days and have to use gaming and all

3:28

about the social. I'm a little bit skeptical. To

3:30

me, these things are a bit unproven and so

3:32

I'm excited enough about what is proven. To.

3:35

You. Know, commit to crypto currency just on.

3:37

like. To. Think that bitcoin can do?

3:40

Yeah, And so all my interest in.

3:42

March Internal organs been developing has been

3:45

in the interests of improvements to Bitcoin.

3:47

For. Example. I am interested

3:49

in the Fi and the or programmability

3:51

and the defy that has emerged from

3:53

for around building. Because.

3:56

You have ways of improving. Upon

3:58

bitcoin you can have decent the was stable coins

4:00

which is a. More. Useful

4:02

denomination for your decentralized currency than

4:05

some volatile. Btc. Which is

4:07

gonna. Probably. Not the best thing

4:09

to actually pay people with as you live in oh

4:11

right country where your currency is. A

4:13

lot more stable that. So. I

4:15

loved the idea that you can have more

4:17

useful denominations than. These. Random coins that

4:20

we met at a sinner. Ah,

4:22

and. Stealing. Tech

4:24

is. Very. Interesting to

4:26

me because because it's own. To. Skill

4:29

and this has been. We've.

4:31

Been talking about since the early earliest days of

4:33

bitcoin with our going scale this thing. And.

4:36

Then the other thing and I'm. Most.

4:39

Excited about as. Invasions of privacy,

4:42

Most. Interested in like the shield

4:44

the previous privacy. Approach is

4:46

was he cares Tornado case. I

4:48

guess like protocol is because around the salon

4:50

forecast. For number. And.

4:54

I am be a really into that really. Passionate.

4:56

About privacy and fall that space

4:58

recklessly. Were. you part of the block

5:01

or as. So.

5:03

Sophomore in college. While that was going

5:05

on, I didn't follow it too closely,

5:07

but I definitely remember. Like.

5:09

All the are doing on the forums. All.

5:11

Arguing the crypto meet ups that we're going on in

5:13

New York at that time. And eventually

5:16

the most people take away from it

5:18

was we're getting a bitcoin cash airdrop

5:20

if we hold btc and I was

5:22

like kind of like that was i

5:24

feel like those like the middle such

5:26

left curve of like. The. At

5:28

view of the block size. Worth? Yeah!

5:31

Ah is the reason I ask is is

5:33

because. You. Know bitcoin not scaling

5:35

was a choice. Oh yeah, because they

5:38

could have rhythm Arthur's. Yeah that

5:40

there's this sort of the view that some

5:42

people have. or it's like bitcoin is ordained

5:44

by God and. It. Is not controlled

5:46

by man. and of course we. We know this

5:48

is. A software package that

5:50

a certain quorum agrees to run. And

5:53

there's nothing inherent about that software package

5:56

that means changes cannot be introduced. There's

5:58

just a. Very. Strong

6:00

cultural aversion to change, which is quite

6:02

frankly is why bitcoin is still valuable

6:04

today. In large part riders lot of

6:06

good reasons this exists, but we do

6:08

have to accept that. You know. This

6:11

is a norm. This is not a law

6:13

of the universe at, so I'm kind of

6:15

curious as someone who is really like bitcoin

6:17

brought you in some ways keeps you in

6:19

the space when you think about. Scaling.

6:22

What is that actually means you in the

6:24

context of Bitcoin? Well.

6:27

As opposes everyone was to ruin the

6:29

box. Those them. It's. Worth mentioning

6:32

that with the tapper upgrade the boxes which

6:34

we don't roost although in like maybe you

6:36

could argue that because the software computer room

6:38

for you could soon be running and twenty

6:41

live in version of between the ability to

6:43

delude silver to goes. I think

6:45

that's how they do things on a computer. But.

6:48

Yeah so like or a one way to talk

6:50

about feeling. Is. Just to

6:52

say like just throughput of the chain

6:54

is is stealing. I'm pretty

6:56

into the meme where we say that

6:59

stealing and the block chain context is

7:01

throughput divided by cost Verify. Ah

7:04

I said mean because like. It's

7:06

contentious, yet like. I'm. More

7:08

interested in scaling that way. I'm more interested

7:11

in. Building. Stealing tech

7:13

that. Preserves. Elo verification cost

7:15

because I think the real the opposition

7:17

are the block size due to. Concerns.

7:20

About. Raising. The

7:22

cost to use the central the flu. Come.

7:25

From a real thing like you can see

7:27

that new movie disagree you might think that

7:30

so much B S but I think there

7:32

is like something of value would be lost

7:34

if we made it too difficult to use

7:36

the genes trust with with yeah. It's

7:40

interesting because, like I think some folks might

7:42

be wondering. Why? As

7:44

someone from Find a Foundation and someone who

7:46

works on Thursday or spending so much time

7:48

talking about the coin, but I think there

7:50

is sort of a. Maybe.

7:52

An unspoken paradigm in a lot of people's

7:55

minds and it easy it less need theory

7:57

and community because there's more of a rift

7:59

there with bitcoin made the but that on

8:01

one side of the spectrum you have, you

8:03

know, Timeless. State less

8:06

money. And that is Bitcoin. And.

8:08

Then on the other side you

8:10

have execution environments and that you

8:13

know you can still have your

8:15

state resistant nuclear war resistance a

8:17

coin, but that the execution scaling

8:19

environment for that may well be

8:21

something like. Sauna. That

8:24

it is a is a fast excuse

8:26

environment to do things with rabbits, bitcoin,

8:28

or other types of assets and build

8:31

programmability sort of as a as an

8:33

execution layer. On even if at

8:35

the ended the day. would you want to

8:37

do is keep the majority of your value

8:39

in an asset like Bitcoin or in this

8:42

case expressly Bitcoin. As

8:44

and that's always been an interesting. Way

8:47

to look at it and said have a theory and came up

8:49

and said we want to do. Both. We.

8:52

Want to do the ultrasound money?

8:54

Him: And. We want to do

8:56

the incident scaling meme and that we can

8:58

provide that in what used to be one

9:00

software package now as. Many. Many many

9:03

different software packages, but I'm I'm kind of curious

9:05

if that is similar or different from how you

9:07

tend to look at the world. Yeah,

9:10

that's interesting. Yeah, I mean like the

9:12

Btc acid itself being the thing that

9:14

no one can ever met with the

9:16

monetary policy change and then like it's

9:18

impossible to do the truth was bridge

9:20

across to disconnect auctions bootlegs so you

9:23

could. Root like to see

9:25

going to people say you can if

9:27

they're just connected. know if they make readers

9:29

you is this your security In some

9:31

way than just it's yeah technically possible

9:33

with and yeah what about a so

9:35

I fear him The So I guess

9:37

bitcoin was supposed to bring the block size

9:39

because the not so much about like.

9:42

Wanting to control the cost of running a node

9:44

or keeping a trust minimized? I think it was

9:46

mainly about just we don't want change it would

9:48

want to touch the parameters. Want to

9:51

keep it ossified because it was ordained by

9:53

God. To theory, I'm. Their

9:55

reasoning for wanted to keep it small to do.

9:57

They do change that they have yet to regularly

9:59

so. It's not about. Freedom.

10:01

The block size to what? Metallic. Sedative

10:03

within twenty four games, it's they have,

10:06

like, kind of, a different reason for,

10:08

and also, if you talk to different

10:10

theory. People. You may

10:12

hear different explanations for why they. Care

10:15

about this? Yeah, and so I'd

10:17

say. Like when I first started.

10:20

Having all these conversations with Soy on

10:22

twitter. A while I

10:24

was working full time in the slot ecosystem. I

10:27

was. Asking. These questions because I

10:29

was trying to understand like why the if

10:31

they're inside cares about the. Wrong. And.

10:35

I talk to a lot of if people about and

10:37

I heard a lot of the for answers and I

10:39

think the part of it that is true and that

10:41

I do sympathize with. Is. Just. We.

10:44

Don't want to be too difficult and expensive

10:46

to use the train chain. Trust us Li

10:48

I now disagree that you'd I don't think

10:50

you need a full node to use the

10:52

change drastically and that's why now I focus

10:55

on building like clients I said I would

10:57

be hard he two hours your thought given

10:59

your current work. yeah yeah I'm the are

11:01

slices full nodes are quite big and yet

11:04

we want them to be huge. but then

11:06

we compensate for that by making good like

11:08

clients that are. Nearly as good as full

11:10

nodes. And so this is

11:12

my ultimate conclusion From all those conversations is

11:14

like I don't care about the costs run

11:16

a full node. Some people do and I

11:18

couldn't. I can summarize why, for example, Tobruk

11:20

and the Lot other a theory and people

11:23

still want their costs to a full node

11:25

to be low even though they. Agree

11:27

with like some the like line stuff and

11:29

I have agree with. But. Like

11:31

my personal segways like let you have

11:34

to raise the cost of hardware. You.

11:36

Have to. Use. Bigger machines and

11:38

more bang with the scale that is inescapable.

11:41

But where? Where crypto people

11:43

were blocking people. Part. Of the

11:45

purpose of a crypto currency is that there's

11:47

lustrous. More senseless

11:50

things? Yeah, And so let's build

11:52

the tech that lets us skill

11:54

the chains while preserving this viable

11:56

trust minimization aspect. Yeah this

11:58

is always been. One of the places

12:01

that I. Think. I stumble sometimes

12:03

in S Which, which is the idea

12:05

that. Like the

12:07

bitcoin errors were right, that proof

12:09

of work is more. Resistant.

12:12

Than proof of stake that works to

12:14

all sorts of problems, whether it's. Outages

12:17

whether it's you know, stick going offline

12:19

like the in a pretty famously Bitcoin

12:22

can lose. Eighty percent of

12:24

it's hash power and it just gets

12:26

very very very slow burn you days.

12:28

But it doesn't actually quote unquote. Go.

12:31

Offline. Whereas the eighty percent of any

12:33

Proof of Stake network goes offline, it's

12:36

all Christians. And that is

12:38

a that is a system. That. Has

12:40

to be built that way and I I would

12:42

say the trade of proof of stake or have

12:44

very much shown themselves to be. Worthwhile

12:47

especially in execution environment. but you you

12:49

you get down a place eventually way

12:51

he say well you know like like

12:53

what you're saying hey actually the node

12:56

requirements don't. An eminent I'm at

12:58

Channel My David Hoffman right now of your

13:00

arm which would be here if you get

13:02

to a place where the node requirements are

13:04

more than most people can run. It's

13:07

just, you know, two cycles of employees

13:09

away from saying like well, it's just

13:11

runner, ten person guardian that work man

13:14

and proof of authority network And as

13:16

long as everyone can validate the like

13:18

clients, it's actually no big deal And

13:20

and you get to a place eventually.

13:23

which is we've basically build centralized system

13:25

so little bit more verification and we

13:27

reduce the amount of trust. But in

13:29

a situation where something catastrophic happens. The.

13:32

Like plants can detect the fault of the

13:35

can actually do anything. the intervene with the

13:37

false how do you think about. That.

13:39

Sort of a situation. and the reason

13:42

I'm asking you this question cause of

13:44

the bitcoin history. because you eat out

13:46

Bitcoin has been for years. You

13:48

know if there's a problem? People

13:51

can forgive and six at and that's not

13:53

necessarily the case If you have incredibly heavy

13:55

know it's. Interesting. Interesting.

13:57

So I mean there isn't a.

14:00

it off between like node

14:02

size and. Number of.

14:05

Participants. And consensus when I think

14:07

it's ally, is the ultimate example. This

14:09

I believe you have three thousand consensus

14:11

participants in your. Privacy.

14:14

Quorum but two thousand or two

14:16

as younger and a. Free.

14:18

That the heart of the harbor is big,

14:20

so I don't. I don't think that like

14:22

big hardware on block producers necessarily translate to

14:25

a smaller quorum or even less news. Although.

14:28

I mean you may be gesturing towards eat Lt

14:31

was which are ours were small quorums and. Easily.

14:34

Verifiable but like small core of

14:36

if even greater than one but.

14:39

I. Approve a Sig Maxi. This.

14:41

Is really oh yeah? big time? Yeah. I

14:43

think that proof of Work is basically a

14:45

complete relic of the past, completely obsolete. The.

14:48

One like, so you said that, Proof of

14:50

Stake. You know if

14:52

a percent say goes offline the chain has you can

14:54

build proof of stake. Without. That. You.

14:57

Can have live in a sobering proof of stake?

14:59

Guess you can have had no analogy that so

15:01

you can kind of do both, even even Ca

15:03

to get the boat. Best of both worlds. So

15:06

like you could have a live in a savoring

15:08

proof of stake. And. Then a

15:10

finality gadget for that, And this is how.

15:12

Ethereal. Gaspar works with more than

15:14

fifty percent of state goes offline. Blocks

15:17

will still be produced, And

15:19

I think it may be is a Mac on.

15:21

Not really sure about this, but I think it

15:23

might even be like almost all the notes to

15:25

go offline and then like just a few, surviving

15:27

knows could continue to produce blocks. But

15:29

for now it his last and with that means

15:31

is Rios can happen. Yeah, and. If.

15:34

Finality on during his last and the chain

15:36

progress without finality. After. A certain

15:38

amount of time is block will start to/the

15:40

male who stop voting and then after a

15:43

certain number of like reorder of about blocks

15:45

on the live in a gadget. The

15:47

save this fanatic edges restore it and then

15:50

the change to finality back after all these

15:52

people got/he had this is this is sort

15:54

of the idea they in a forking advanced

15:56

on a theory and both sides/himself down to

15:59

one side have. In. Enough

16:01

of the steak to continue finalizing bought.

16:03

Oh yeah, yeah, they're that is true.

16:05

So like if like Australia got cut

16:07

off from the rest the rule deflect

16:09

the Pacific ocean like internet cable got

16:11

caught or something. I was in pacific

16:13

rim. Those

16:15

those validators would like. They

16:18

would observe a finality outage com and

16:20

then like only the Australia validators would

16:22

continue to produce blocks and like. Then

16:24

you'd end up with just like two

16:26

different completely valid forces a theory and

16:28

that are that are just going on

16:30

their own. Yeah. Kiwi.

16:33

Btc. See. fetuses,

16:36

I yeah I guess this is always been

16:38

an interesting one cause in of the salon

16:41

our. View of the

16:43

world. Is that? Execution

16:47

in the absence of analogy is

16:49

not worth the trade off. Yeah.

16:51

Many people believe this that the same view as

16:54

pretty much the whole like Tinder Mint world as

16:56

well the i have any sort of the way

16:58

to recover if to mercy goes off on and

17:00

I would say like to his their own it

17:02

during really likes their thing and I think it's

17:04

quite nice or times we've seen it. With.

17:07

To do in and work and like

17:09

peel finale outages? Yeah. Sort. Of

17:11

I mean or will we see progress without finale outages

17:13

and then the rear of Zorn. Even that like there

17:16

weren't really any real stirring up like. Finale.

17:18

Outage. And like I think

17:20

it was because one of the consensus

17:22

clients a bug. yeah you're actually if

17:24

remember correctly lighthouse which is the declines

17:27

it's written ross it had a bug,

17:29

that and dos or the other clients

17:31

and then so like it became only

17:33

lighthouse because my house like inadvertently like

17:35

took out prism and other ones. Which.

17:38

Is very funny and and I think they

17:40

passed it or fixed it. Before.

17:42

Anyone got inactive do it? Now

17:45

sir nice and also like. If.

17:47

You're running prism and and you see that it went down.

17:49

you can display oh shit and and switch out last yeah

17:51

and then like we're going to fix in a switch back

17:53

prism. Yeah this is a multi plan

17:55

vision of why it actually matters, which is why

17:58

he and out the fun and our cars. A

18:00

second independent client and the oil is exactly

18:02

from earth. Fired for an answer is a

18:04

great. From. Church that a focus with

18:06

yeah ah, finance their I mean we're or

18:08

Hoban we get some version of it on

18:11

mean that this here so well as ahead

18:13

of schedule isn't Ah, I mean you know,

18:15

schedules and block chains are sort of an

18:17

amorphous com on the way things are measured

18:19

and century or plan their measures and centuries.

18:21

but yet restless Red Mask don't exist. Know

18:24

because I think the that the way I

18:26

mean that. But yeah that's that's sort of

18:28

the hope in this. The end goal of

18:30

that project is One hundred X Performance. All.

18:33

Over the current network and you know that is a

18:35

multi project to get there of course but. I

18:37

never got as the the highly scalable vision

18:40

so I want to talk about. Trust

18:42

minimization and the role that that played

18:44

and in your decisions both in terms

18:46

of career choices and the way that

18:48

you've chosen to spend your time on

18:51

different types of of software projects at

18:53

you know you and and and Turbo

18:55

he mentioned before from scroll or two

18:57

people that said have the drumbeat of

18:59

this. I'm on Twitter

19:01

on the time. What do

19:03

you? Didn't you see people?

19:06

Misunderstanding. These terms D C

19:08

Them intentionally misleading people on what they

19:11

mean. Why do you think there's such

19:13

a you would expect trusts to be

19:15

something that we can agree on in

19:17

networks that are built. On.

19:20

Having to truths. But. It seems

19:22

like still a very contentious pointed this

19:24

industry about what qualifies as trusted or

19:26

says trust plus vs trust minimized. Yeah.

19:29

I would say that like you know,

19:31

obviously if you run a full node

19:33

of your chain, you are not trusting

19:36

anyone. You're checking every single lock right.

19:38

And sure, I mean there's some baseline

19:40

trust assumptions for example, like maybe you

19:42

trust two thirds fruit of state for

19:44

lightness and to some things are inescapable.

19:46

trust. some things you cannot overcome with.

19:49

Modern technology or you do the classic

19:51

like what have your entails you you

19:53

and your laptop is back toward read

19:55

through, something that we cannot overcome. But.

19:58

Like I would say that. Why

20:00

citrus minimized and sort of like

20:02

my goal for building trust Minimization

20:04

tech for block and is get

20:06

every user. Equal to what?

20:08

the. Uses. The full nodes have

20:11

because that is. I

20:13

think. As good as you can get and

20:15

a noble goal. And. That

20:17

would get us to. This. Put back

20:19

to this place Word. Block. Chains are

20:21

a less trusted version than. What?

20:24

Do or tried by things. Yeah.

20:26

Now one of the places that a

20:28

lot of people go in there talking

20:31

about how we build. Systems.

20:33

Are the average user has.

20:35

No interest based assurances that a

20:37

full node is operating crackly. Are

20:40

zero knowledge proofs I did. This is kind

20:43

of one of the there are many examples

20:45

of how you can use their knowledge proofs.

20:47

one of them being the think this which

20:49

is really just a proper that gives you

20:52

scale for the other one is basically to

20:54

say I don't have to verify your computation.

20:57

Because. There's a cryptographic signature generated as

20:59

part of your computation that proves that

21:01

correct. This is. See. The. Analogy:

21:04

You're probably not forgive me for this. Is

21:06

there? Like has checking that you know a

21:08

file or something on earth are perfectly fine.

21:10

Analogy: Early go have some shards. is the

21:13

integrity of data and is your nose Proof

21:15

is the integrity of a competition. Yes,

21:17

It's very similar in comparison, so.

21:20

I want to ask of. Very. Broad

21:22

question. Why this many

21:24

years ensues? Zero Knowledge. Prove

21:26

Or is. Do. We still not

21:28

have one. Is that run anywhere near real

21:30

time? Oh, I don't think we're Well, I

21:33

mean, maybe pessimistic, but there's an. Enormous

21:35

amount of overhead in sick

21:37

every competition and. Real

21:40

time sound like science fiction at the moment.

21:43

right? And we have some really high

21:45

performance ones. What I mean like. Maybe

21:48

when high performance, but. We.

21:50

Have some literati babies. have a

21:52

block. Time isn't. Ability.

21:54

Lead the ability for as he can

21:56

prove to execute within one block on

21:59

most networks. Oh.

22:01

Yeah, I'm okay. so. Depends.

22:05

Or do it like if you want to

22:07

seek a prove consensus and a whole block

22:10

worth of state transitions in as a proof.

22:13

That's. Gonna definitely be slower than whatever

22:15

the block I'm was just because.

22:19

You know you have to do so many extra

22:22

competitions for each instruction that you run if you're

22:24

trying to prove. Yeah. Any competition.

22:26

But what is nice is that.

22:29

It won't fall behind so you can have

22:31

a chain progress as fast as you want.

22:34

And. The truth lag behind by certain amount of

22:36

time, but they always keep up. So.

22:38

It's not like that's not so bad, right? So

22:40

like. You. Know suppose we have

22:42

our four hundred mil second blocks and

22:44

then maybe three minutes later, the user

22:47

gets a confirmation that. Though.

22:49

That like. The. Height three minutes

22:51

ago was valid. Yeah, that's better than what

22:54

users have now, which is nothing blind. Trust

22:56

Frank, I'm pretty happy with that every day.

22:58

Someday get real time because of some math

23:00

breakthrough or some hardware breakthrough in the future

23:02

of even more cool but I'm personally does

23:04

happy enough that we have the ability to

23:06

give them confirmations at all he and with

23:08

a little bit of a delay that so

23:10

much better than. Blindly. Trust plan?

23:13

Interesting. Yeah. So. Sit. I

23:15

think one of the arguments that you're

23:17

here is okay. So let's assume that

23:19

zero knowledge tech gets. Good

23:21

enough that you can get. Let's call

23:24

it. you know that a three minute,

23:26

a five minute confirmation, On and on

23:28

on something. right at that point? What?

23:31

Is the role that the block chain is. Because.

23:34

I could see a world where someone's leg. Access

23:37

your knowledge. Proofs make Octane irrelevant.

23:40

You now can have arbitrary data coming

23:42

from arbitrary sources that doesn't necessarily need

23:44

to be verified. These the computation is

23:47

now verified as a good point, right?

23:49

So like imagine you're you are using

23:51

a blocks index because you don't trust

23:53

Robin Hood. Guess? But then Robin Hood

23:56

rolls out a new Zeke a brew

23:58

feature where now you know. Robin

24:00

Hood is executing their code exactly upon the

24:02

terms that you agree to when you were

24:04

using Out. Yeah. Are still. I

24:06

still think we need block chance. Even

24:08

with that because block hands are also

24:10

there are more than just. Ruined.

24:13

Trust, right? We're also trying to make these things that no

24:15

one can take away. We're trying to make these things that.

24:17

Last. Forever can be censored. And.

24:21

Like. No one, even with all the power in the

24:23

world, could. Take. Away from us. So

24:25

like. Even. Zk Robin Hood.

24:28

Like that can be shut down, right? That

24:30

can be like seized or. Have

24:32

their business license suspended or something like

24:34

that. but. The. Crypto version of

24:36

the block chain version without. Last

24:39

Forever runs itself. Resilience,

24:41

Against all kinds of attacks. And.

24:43

So like we want that stuff and then we

24:46

also want the trust my this and stuff and

24:48

I think that's where gets interesting. Yeah.

24:50

Civil is, I've always struggled with the idea

24:52

that a block chain will ever be. Technologically

24:55

resistant to state action,

24:58

I think the reason of and you we can set aside

25:00

like. In. L a Rhode Island dance

25:02

cut down on thing. anyone's worried about

25:04

it. We're we're We're talking like a

25:06

a massive actual nation state level with

25:08

us. India, you China, something like that.

25:12

In that situation, The.

25:15

The the security of the network

25:17

from the values standpoint. Seems.

25:20

To me at least to be much more governed by

25:22

the social layer than the technical. And

25:24

I guess my analogy here would be. If

25:27

you make something technically

25:29

resists and but socially

25:31

unacceptable. The.

25:33

Value of that underlying assets? Like that.

25:35

You know it. It's Us Bends Bitcoin,

25:37

Bitcoin, Ghost of Three Thousand Dollars, for

25:39

instance, right? And I know, Yeah, At

25:41

some point, you have to ask yourself,

25:44

Or. The eat the Us and the You and

25:46

China right As a trifecta, come together and

25:48

say no Bitcoin. In

25:51

a blood blood diamond still exists right

25:53

there There are there are people who

25:56

you know by. Assassinations with

25:58

bars of gold. Right?

26:00

or some other type of like

26:02

highly hard to move physical assets.

26:04

And the the The thing there

26:06

is the social layer. Of

26:09

crypto is what keeps it in the

26:11

good graces of government. At. Least

26:13

in democratic or semi democratic systems.

26:16

As. Much as the technology and so

26:18

I'm I'm kind of. I've always wondered

26:20

about sort of how. How.

26:22

Absolute as we need to be around that

26:24

layer. Considering. That at

26:27

this point in this is the argument

26:29

that circle actually control the theory Him.

26:32

And that the end of the day

26:34

if if circle said we need this

26:36

change to be made or we need

26:38

you to go in and remove this

26:40

transaction that we've traced back to North

26:42

Korea a refusal to comply. With.

26:45

Would have. Such. Catastrophic effects

26:47

for a network that it would functionally

26:49

not be able to maintain its role

26:51

and that it's players would probably can

26:54

pitch elite to that request. Or

26:56

yeah, so that circle for question thing I'd

26:58

so we just talked with it. Too easy

27:00

going on or the projects, but I have

27:02

a answer that I think you're like okay,

27:05

So. I. Really don't like

27:07

the framing that sir who controls the

27:09

for the hard for selection of the

27:11

team or circle controls a theorem Sir

27:13

who controls mana I agree cause what

27:15

happens if if circle is. Coerced.

27:18

Into. Only. Accepting redemptions

27:20

on aid. Hard for

27:22

goes if the room that. Removes

27:24

tornado cash from the state or otherwise

27:26

changes the state. In a

27:29

way that's against the recall that

27:31

actually crazy second chain. Yes, So

27:33

there are two chains. This happened before we did,

27:35

we did the dow hack, we did a other

27:37

and classic. Forging, Into a theorem.

27:40

It wasn't that the old chain

27:42

was deleted. it still exists. And

27:44

you have phones on both of you.

27:46

Headphones on Lithium Classic. You got phones

27:48

on A theorem. And. During

27:50

classic still has value. It. Has

27:53

probably some usage still. and oh really,

27:55

no vote? like. If. The

27:57

Circle for happened you'd have to chance. you'd have

27:59

to to. Organs you have. Our

28:01

Ethan Circle Eve. Yeah, and. I

28:04

would say that. He. Knows

28:06

the value of both the probably be a lot

28:08

less than the value of his prior to that

28:10

event. I think the the Pirate

28:12

East chain were all of the if I brace

28:14

is probably going to have a lot of problems.

28:17

And. A bunch of opposite break

28:19

and you I would not. Be.

28:21

As useful in some ways, but wouldn't be worth zero.

28:24

It. Wouldn't go completely to zero and

28:26

are similarly on the other side

28:28

on serve the circle a fork

28:30

that one would not be as

28:32

worth as much as the original

28:34

is either Because the entire narrative

28:36

that this is a like decentralized

28:38

protocols gone, it's now completely centrally

28:40

captured. This one company changed the

28:42

state by breaking the rules especially the validate

28:44

are set of the scene is just for

28:47

show. the whole decentralized consensus and like peter

28:49

view layer of this is all for show

28:51

the one company that now everyone has decided

28:53

on the same. They're okay with them, just

28:56

completely have a right access to the whole

28:58

state. Yeah. So I agree with

29:00

you that like. Assyrian probably actually would not

29:02

listen to circle not like of the or aim

29:05

is one percent or ah well predator vibe is

29:07

your chance Yet there would be there would be

29:09

to change that. I I might even go as

29:11

far as to say that the impacts of it.

29:14

Would be such that circle actually.

29:17

If anything, the the market forces work the other way.

29:20

Is. It you would see a massive exodus

29:22

from Us D C. V

29:24

him. There was a moment like this

29:26

and and there's no real great alternative

29:28

to us. The see today, right if

29:30

you're looking for for highly regulated, stable

29:32

coins. But we have Gm though we

29:34

have pack so he's either see a

29:36

world where the institutional money moves to

29:39

something that hasn't been sanctioned and the

29:41

deeds and money just goes back to

29:43

tether. right? I mean

29:45

that a i'd rather is not an American company

29:47

but now I still think if the U s

29:49

didn't want other do exist in probably wouldn't exist.

29:52

You. Think yeah I guess the

29:54

The, The, the. Question.

29:56

With a lot of the stuff is always when. is it worth

29:59

it right? Because like other. Policy that no one

30:01

likes that talk about is like. Drugs.

30:04

Are still. Easy

30:06

to obtain despite being illegal

30:08

in the United States. Pirated

30:10

copies of movies despite

30:12

being illegal. Are. Still easy

30:15

to obtain and it's not like for rise

30:17

then. You know monitor is

30:19

your internet traffic and you know

30:21

like. Into. The yes

30:23

people use encryption on bit torrent but like

30:25

fundamentally it are hard to look at your

30:28

computer and be like oh they downloaded forty

30:30

five gigabytes in five minutes and like that

30:32

for you know from ten thousand other beer

30:34

from a hundred other people like that's probably

30:36

a pirated movie file. We you know that

30:38

there is guilt by association that exists within

30:40

a lot of the things but the compliance

30:43

not strong enough to and forth up. And.

30:45

For me, I see that as the

30:47

social layer of the politicians who went

30:50

after piracy in the early two thousand

30:52

all that voted out of office Because

30:54

it turns out it's pretty popular. And.

30:56

That the actual resistance of block

30:59

chain to state action. Is.

31:01

Very similar in that if we actually saw

31:03

him a we've seen this that politicians right

31:05

now in the United States who are very

31:07

anti crypto. If. They're vulnerable. It is

31:09

enough to make them lose their reelection

31:11

campaign. And that that's the

31:14

actual. Ah, Consensus layer, Power

31:16

layer, whatever you want to call

31:18

it of crypto is more in

31:20

the number of people who believe

31:22

in these networks than necessarily the

31:24

technological resistance. Of. The networks. right?

31:28

So. Much of your group that are not.

31:30

well, I'm kind of you who you of. Interesting

31:32

point but let's go back a little bit

31:34

too. Like if so

31:36

is it be one thing if

31:38

the government banned crypto currency. A

31:41

be another thing if they went to war

31:43

against crypto currency. So if we went to

31:45

war against drugs. Or yeah, fuck me

31:47

for the for as you go so well right?

31:49

Yeah, so like I think that's kind of what

31:51

we want to do. So if we want to

31:53

make it so. We. Want to design

31:55

the networks? From like a technology

31:57

perspective in a way that if there were were

31:59

on. Crypto. Crypto would win in the same

32:01

way that the Drugs on the War on

32:04

Drugs like Ray and the Drugs one because

32:06

the user's one. Year.

32:08

Bright lay off at at the end of

32:10

the day that the War on Drugs failed

32:12

because they didn't cut off. The.

32:14

Demand for the product. Yeah

32:17

and euro Yeah can and must make it

32:19

easy to get right? So like. You.

32:21

Know, for example, Rpc services like a

32:24

lot of Rnc providers, are businesses and

32:26

if there's if they're going to war

32:28

against crypto currency, their business licenses are

32:30

gone. They can no longer accept money

32:33

from their clients for the can no

32:35

longer pay taxes I don't think are

32:37

busy businesses. Are so passionate that

32:39

they're going to. Become. Like speakeasies

32:41

or bootleggers either. I probably will. just

32:44

fun do a new like jobs. They're

32:46

probably just like close down there isn't

32:48

become Cdn. Yeah so like we wouldn't

32:51

in this world we would have. Rpc

32:53

providers of is sketchy are fussy providers would

32:56

be like criminal pirate guys know like the

32:58

people who are uploading all these torrance the

33:00

bittorrent yeah or like the very early days

33:02

are trying to buy a Vpn that wasn't

33:05

to your work. Yeah so.

33:07

Are. Fuzzy providers become. Not.

33:10

Trustworthy businesses. They become sketchy criminals, so

33:12

that's why I'm like let's not trust

33:14

them. What makes excellent We don't have

33:16

the trust them. In the

33:18

event that we end up in this world. Because

33:21

they might not be right now. They're trustworthy and right now

33:23

is very easy to say. Oh curious

33:25

is never going to run. Meat is murder

33:27

is a trustworthy guy. But. Like

33:29

some that my change someday be

33:31

trustworthy Rpc providers my be gone.

33:34

Shore or it some day. He'll.

33:36

He gets acquired by Oracle. Orcl.

33:38

Like Lario Theatrical and then Larry

33:40

Ellison. Gonna start like lying to

33:42

users about their balance. Yes, Yes

33:46

of the light that the an area southern

33:48

Oregon or or or you know the I

33:50

mean so a very different version of this

33:53

actually turn It happened with. Ice. And

33:55

and you know when they were acquired they

33:57

coin this the scope of what they were

33:59

able to. You under a

34:01

publicly traded, highly regulated entity

34:03

that owns a exchange. Men:

34:06

That the product sweet had to change

34:08

in response to the regulatory visions and

34:10

I thought to say that you know

34:13

anything wrong happened. There is just the

34:15

business realities changed in the products and

34:17

services that company was able to offer

34:19

post acquisition were very different and free

34:21

acquisition. Interesting and thing to. Sometimes I

34:23

even the ferry as use cases and and

34:25

it's just. A business use cases

34:28

change and suddenly you know what if

34:30

there's a oh fact block type conversation

34:32

equivalent for our Pcs. Oh

34:34

yeah I mean I I I think that is already

34:36

confirmed to be happening. For three I'm a convert. Those

34:38

already major are busy that are not letting people. Interact

34:41

with tornado. Interesting.

34:44

Yes that is. Take a hard have

34:46

it here. I want to bring this

34:48

back to Celeste year. And

34:50

see the availability that the so I

34:53

wanna. I wanna talk to a little

34:55

bit about how. Data. Availability

34:57

works. How it differs from

34:59

settlements, How it differs from

35:02

state. And then also. Where.

35:05

Data availability and verifiability intersect

35:07

something that you see as

35:09

necessary for the future of

35:11

the A products. For. Her.

35:13

Great. So let's start. With.

35:15

That with the basic with their with think. So.

35:19

If you're using something that's built on

35:21

Philistia, Where. Is the execution

35:23

happening? Where is that the states. Where.

35:25

Is the Da and where is the settlements? Instead

35:28

of an example, you want to just pick. Yeah

35:31

so this is a very common source of

35:33

confusion just there's a lot of different ways

35:35

that first is being used and they all

35:37

have like very different answers to your thirst

35:39

for something like a eclipse would say. Okay,

35:42

Eclipse is an ethereal L to. And

35:45

it uses slushy data availability if they're

35:47

him settlements and it's it's I guess

35:49

for To the Slaughter virtual machine to

35:52

execute transactions. And what does

35:54

that mean? What I mean That. Transactions.

35:58

Go to either the A. He cancer or

36:00

the Eclipse Network depending on if it's an incident.

36:03

What's age of decentralization? it up. And

36:05

they will produce a block

36:08

and. Or. A bachelor

36:10

blocks or whatever. Maybe like it's. Many

36:12

blocks that ends up being one huge

36:15

block and there will be a Merkel

36:17

root. Of either like

36:19

the state and most most roll ups

36:21

we do talk about a Merkel Root

36:23

of the Century being posted on chain

36:25

on it might be different for salon

36:27

of the and because the salon of

36:29

the Am doing like clients is much

36:31

more easy with like as to decide

36:33

where you have a. Root. Of

36:36

the transactions rather than root of the say

36:38

it was. Turns out that works just as

36:40

well for bridging and all that are. So

36:42

I'll say Eclipses posting a root of a

36:44

bunch of transactions onto. A Syrian.

36:47

The reason why you need. Data.

36:50

Availability is because. What?

36:52

Could happen is the block producer could have

36:54

posted a Merkel root for a tree that

36:56

does not exist. Right? And

36:59

what data availability guarantees is

37:01

that. Even though

37:03

the route is was posted to the like lance

37:05

a roll up for an l to is a

37:07

on chain like line so it's it's the same

37:09

as like that might have been talking about responses

37:11

so that you've used to have a bridge. I

37:14

actually never heard some and it's have a roll

37:16

up as a like land friend Alan yeah I

37:18

mean of an interesting like an ethereal out famous

37:20

your email to is a lot a trust minimize

37:23

like client for one chain of running on it

37:25

during a one. Yeah. Rather than

37:27

a like line that you're on your phone which

37:29

is on another that could and thing that's very

37:31

cool. So so yes I we read. A

37:33

Merkel wrote. Has been created that

37:35

me that actually conform to a tree. Yeah.

37:37

So like. If maybe

37:40

the blah freezer just. Created

37:42

three. And. Then put the route

37:44

on shame. but he didn't He hid the tree he can

37:46

be hidden. And then that's useless

37:48

because people cannot challenge it if

37:50

there is secure by for offers

37:52

or they wouldn't be able to

37:54

withdraw. Because

37:57

they can't get their Merkel past the rounds. So.

38:00

When. The contract is accepting the route

38:02

it must also. Or

38:05

when the like client more generically is accepting the

38:07

route from the role of block producer. It

38:09

must also verify that the data is

38:12

available that the rest of the tree

38:14

exist somewhere as retrievable by the users.

38:17

And so. Data. Availability is

38:19

not a storage thing, It's not

38:21

Rpc thing. It's actually this very

38:23

like nice, weird specific. Problem.

38:25

Where it's make sure that the data is

38:27

retrieval. make sure that was not withheld. Make

38:30

sure that it was available at one point in time

38:32

so that it may have been archived. It's sort of

38:34

excess, right? That a fair way to

38:36

think about it like it is a temporary holding

38:38

place for data that may need to be referenced

38:41

for a bunch of other things. Yeah

38:44

I'm so like it During of added added

38:46

the for it for for gloves face the

38:48

blocks and if you are and it's are

38:50

in full node and your download a new

38:52

block. If you you can download the blobs

38:54

and then immediately delete them that would be

38:57

fine. Because. That is verifying availability.

38:59

Use you just once check that they

39:01

were there. And then it doesn't

39:03

matter. Restore it like you're You're just

39:05

validating that they exist at all at

39:07

one point. Fresh and so. Did

39:09

availability is not considered to be

39:11

persistent storage. No. Yeah, no,

39:14

it's not block chain, regular block and

39:16

do not guarantee storage. So there is

39:18

actually nothing like. If. All

39:20

copies of. Bitcoin. Lock

39:22

number seven were deleted right now. What

39:25

would we do like? the declined is not

39:27

fargo and the coin does not guarantee it

39:30

all of it's it's true restored. We just

39:32

kind of trust that it will be stored.

39:34

Yeah, and the more scale the chain is.

39:36

The. More We have to trust that. All

39:38

the data will be archived. Yeah I

39:41

mean this is like a. Classic. Lead

39:43

to problems at a friend who is like

39:45

in the observatory team at at Sea and

39:47

and they were saying that they throw out

39:50

ninety nine Point Nine Nine Seven percent of

39:52

their lawn data is of they stored at

39:54

It was something like to petabyte the day.

39:56

Oh my God. While. And

39:58

the just there's. It it would

40:01

break the economies of. A

40:03

very centralized, very profitable company

40:05

like Etsy, let alone a

40:07

decentralized boxing. Yeah. Yeah.

40:10

So this is this is a cool thing that gnome

40:12

comes up. It's. It's starting to be.

40:15

An. Interesting like return twitter conversation which I'm

40:17

happy about. It is for while we're just

40:19

months and months of the most boring discourse

40:21

measurable in our backs are some pretty cool

40:23

stuff Think with yeah which is like now

40:26

people are like arguing about. Like.

40:29

Historical think and data availability which is which

40:31

is really interesting. A lot of the corners

40:33

still like to sing from China discuss possible

40:35

or it's a bitcoin changes not that big.

40:38

friendly you can in a couple days I

40:40

guess. sink the whole chain from Genesis where

40:42

he is on salon or a dozen. Absolutely

40:44

not possible and I'll think that's a bad

40:46

them because this is. this is actually an

40:49

inescapable trade offs. and if you want to

40:51

scale. You. Have to trade off the

40:53

boys who. Like. Think the entire. Block.

40:56

And from Genesis you can do some

40:58

cool things with precursors. Your knowledge proofs like

41:00

me know it's a mirror. you every

41:02

every block includes approve of the entire

41:04

chain and it doesn't matter of the old

41:06

blocks get deleted forever not archived lost

41:08

because you never have to trust by

41:10

the entire history the chain which is awesome.

41:13

So. That the proposition for. Data

41:16

availability of or were seen a number of

41:18

different solutions out there. They're all kept trying

41:20

to address some version of this again. layer

41:22

has their own the A product without now

41:24

plus he seems to be that the Da

41:27

layer that is your most favorite in the

41:29

theory him world. There's other ones out there

41:31

as well as other ones coming out for

41:33

set of other networks so on a has

41:36

set of a slightly different implementation of all

41:38

of this were like compression in a uses

41:40

Merkle tree, them Merkel proofs and as a

41:42

bunch of that sort unchained. But the retrieval

41:44

to a lot of that. Is. Often

41:46

on the Rpc layer, although it can

41:48

be all reconstructed from the data and

41:51

sane. But oh. Over the

41:53

long term. Like what is the role

41:55

that data availability players? Because I think

41:57

hearing you describe it here. In

42:00

consider think it's kind of a race to the

42:02

bottom. Market where it's like a

42:04

we just need somewhere to put the stuff. That.

42:06

For retrievable for fourteen days or something

42:08

like that, but there's obviously a much

42:10

bigger vision for what Solas the I

42:13

can be for the next year's of

42:15

block chain. Oh yeah, so.

42:17

The. Example Retard two Hours Eclipse which

42:19

isn't a theory Email to useless is

42:21

yeah yeah and all the top users

42:24

this less the are currently three more.

42:26

Juice and Out see the data availability

42:28

for through email. Choose. Aura.

42:30

A religious anywhere that settled somewhere. Besides.

42:33

Last year is. Kind of a

42:35

race of on commodity. that's pretty true

42:37

for that use case. Now there's other

42:39

ways useless to a it. Where.

42:41

The specific first you block space

42:43

is important to what you're doing.

42:46

And. Is not a community. But.

42:49

For serving it's like else using this way

42:51

where you have like an adaptation from the

42:53

D A layer as a criteria for the

42:56

and yeah my clients exception to bash is

42:58

like you want one that has a high

43:00

cost of attack or high budget of attack.

43:03

And. Besides, like that. besides like how

43:05

securities the next thing you care about is how

43:07

low the Bruce. Sir.

43:10

Like. If. You have celeste year

43:12

was just maybe charging like a one cent

43:14

and then like a fork of the last

43:16

year with like a really low market cap.

43:18

Yeah you might spring for the premium because

43:21

the more sense of one is less likely

43:23

to be attacked. So. What

43:25

is an attack like? And a d A Liar. I.

43:27

Think we know what does look like on proof of work

43:29

that works when they look like and prefer sake. What?

43:32

Is like I guess. Maybe. That we can

43:34

take a step back. What is security model that A

43:36

D A layer needs to be worried about and then

43:39

what is the attack vector Their their shit. So again

43:41

it depends on how using it. So if you build

43:43

with called a sovereign roll up on first year. That.

43:46

It's completely restless and are the only attack

43:48

against that the could possibly happen is alive.

43:50

This failure from Allen. But if

43:52

you're using first year as the a four

43:55

and a through email to what could happen

43:57

is a majority attack on fullest year like

43:59

a two thirds militias take on first year.

44:01

Collude. With a sequencer. And

44:04

then you would have are optimistic. Grow up.

44:07

They. Could see all these response because what could

44:09

happen is. The sequencer

44:11

produces a invalid say transition.

44:13

And then data is withheld. But.

44:16

The validators on plus your lion say

44:18

the data wasn't withheld and. Frog.

44:21

Who's can be prevented prevented? So

44:23

the. Sequencer. Would be able

44:25

to steal the entire phones off. The role of

44:27

bridge A right? If of course it's like a

44:29

mature officer grow up where fraud, truth, and yeah

44:32

are actually the. On strongest trust

44:34

assumption the chance, right which right now they're

44:36

quite far from. It's. Quite far from being

44:38

that the caisson. On the. Popular.

44:41

Else who's. Yeah. I. It's

44:43

a There's one last topic I want

44:45

to talk about, which I think is

44:47

one of the reasons we started the

44:50

I'm In Back and Forth original and

44:52

which was you tweeted something to the

44:54

effect of. I think program ability

44:56

and blocked in the might have than a mistake.

44:59

And just programmability as look on the interested

45:01

in box and I was one of the

45:03

people of the bitcoin and said this might

45:05

be for the bunker boys but this is

45:07

an interesting to me because at the end

45:09

of the day like nuclear war resistant money

45:11

like at I feel like I'm probably not

45:13

gonna last out the war. So what I

45:15

care about the money after the war. Is

45:19

her for me the pro. The ideas,

45:21

smart contracts is what got me into

45:23

Block Ten. Originally this is how I

45:25

started working on some projects, building a

45:27

nice and twenty seventeen and that piece.

45:30

Has been was kept the me and what's

45:32

kept me hopeful about the space and we

45:34

can build trust plus computing environments that can

45:36

execute any code and this sort of ah

45:39

idea of an unseen program especially salon as

45:41

model where anyone can hit data up to

45:43

a non chain program that on in program

45:45

does a known saying and outputs a new

45:48

and value and that is just an incredible

45:50

force for good. In. The world,

45:52

but you are such as saying that

45:54

programmability is also it's of the the

45:56

one reason people lose money, it is

45:59

the source. As well,

46:01

so I wanted to have a little bit

46:03

more of that conversation live with you and

46:05

get get your thoughts on on programmability. I'm.

46:08

Sure sir like are not answer app

46:10

improve our. Armed. But the thing

46:12

that is why also like this is. A.

46:14

Modern era. This kind of like workshop in the

46:17

idea on twitter and and soon as they'll they'll

46:19

yet but us. So. Like

46:21

very pro Our farm. I love all

46:23

the great apps that exist in have

46:26

been built a Smart Contracts put. The

46:28

scary thing is these deterministic virtual machines

46:30

that the block chains run which are

46:33

really unforgiving and so if there's a

46:35

problem in the code for Smart contract.

46:38

People's phones will be loss. And

46:41

all the active and execution clients fired.

46:43

Answer Slow. Are. On

46:46

a Theory Death Wrath. Oh nevermind.

46:49

They. Would all exits you the hack the same

46:51

way and on all the clients all the.

46:54

Fun! To be loss and huge it's just

46:56

with him has happened many times like billions

46:58

of been lost. Yeah, smart contract exploits. Ah,

47:01

but like every app that runs

47:03

as a Smart contract. You.

47:05

Could just take it out of the smart contract vm

47:07

and make it part of the I want So. And

47:10

once per the own. So. It

47:12

gets implemented in execution clients and so

47:15

like on a theory and would have

47:17

thought of have limitations from like Guess

47:19

Reznor, Mind or Besser. Yeah. And

47:21

if they ever diverse we would

47:23

catch it very quickly and were

47:26

were a lot better at. Catching.

47:28

Diverging client behavior than smart contracts bugs.

47:30

It's funds don't really get lost when

47:32

clients divers. We kind of just start

47:35

the chain and say hey guys, there's

47:37

something was under specified or there's a

47:39

bug in a client Were like sort

47:41

this out and. A

47:43

worse quite well and I really like that. And

47:46

then so of course you lose the ability to

47:48

eat. Or it's a lose the ability to just.

47:50

Run nap on May Net. Fan. Just

47:52

like trial, your app and launcher and all that. But.

47:55

Like. Or. Other really that many

47:57

apps like it seems like. Every.

48:00

It is building a new decks. everybody's building

48:02

a new lending protocol every building new perps

48:04

originally new F T's and it's really much

48:06

much of the same thing So I wonder

48:08

like maybe we should stop. Just

48:10

rebuilding the same things over over again. We

48:12

should just like have an open source Dexter

48:14

we all like work on. And.

48:16

It's part of l One and a can ever act. Of

48:19

yet of like the the the thesis

48:21

that I'm I'm toying with here. yeah

48:23

I mean you know blood. It is

48:25

a system where we start enshrining core

48:27

applications into the core code. The. Validators

48:29

get a bit heavier to run that Maybe

48:31

that's an appropriate trade off. We. Decide

48:33

to run Committee structure is to cigarette

48:35

who can build code for these systems.

48:37

Make sure it's secure. We have any

48:39

more meetings, everyone votes and those systems

48:42

there now housed in several data centers

48:44

and a just you know I am

48:46

I being facetious hear me is very

48:48

quickly. we get to Hsbc and the

48:50

Federal Reserve. right? Yeah, we

48:52

wish we did. We do, because

48:54

they're the it. The minute we

48:56

start saying that we're going to

48:58

move applications out of the permissionless

49:01

layer into the permissions layer. the

49:03

cost of Innovation skyrockets because now

49:05

suddenly have to pay. Seven.

49:07

Teams to implement you to swap. And.

49:09

The validators get heavier. Potentially.

49:11

To because they now have to be handling the

49:14

more they're not just handling execution in there. Handling

49:16

in grass have a lot of work. And

49:18

I just you know I am joking about

49:21

but like a i think what I'm worried

49:23

about is that puts us on. A

49:25

path. To making the

49:28

cost of starting something on

49:30

box seen. As high as

49:32

the cost of starting something as become and

49:34

web two or higher right leg If you

49:36

want to do something that touches money. In.

49:39

The United States you have to raise two million

49:41

dollars. You need Mtl in every state you need.

49:43

you know, x or y and Z You need

49:45

agreements, a credit card, profit companies in it and

49:48

game like the it is a. It

49:50

is a very long process. If.

49:52

You don't want to outsource and you service

49:54

prayers for every component. Actually started

49:56

a new business and this is why there's

49:59

like three clearing. In.

50:01

The United States and like, that's it. And

50:03

that's why there is functionally three companies

50:05

that process all the credit card payments

50:07

like. Like. It becomes a consolidation

50:09

boat and these industries become protected of the

50:11

same way. It's it's it's You know. the

50:13

classic thing where if you know anyone who's

50:15

ever tried to build a company that selling

50:18

a product the Us government. Sixty.

50:20

Three years to get qualified to

50:22

sell something to the government. And.

50:24

When i when i worry about his be

50:26

be building very similar systems. Where

50:29

the entry barrier become so high

50:31

that the Protocol development team this

50:33

at these clients become gatekeepers to

50:35

the execution of our men as

50:37

opposed to being. You know

50:40

that the more appropriate gatekeepers adding new features

50:42

to the L one like they are today?

50:44

Well I mean like. You

50:47

said that the Via I'm is

50:50

the permissionless layer and the A

50:52

one is permissions. I don't agree

50:54

that it slip permission, but. It.

50:57

Is more tightly controlled by. You.

51:00

Eat like the for example if you want to add a core

51:02

new feature to a theory and. You. Have

51:04

to get a lot of people to agree with

51:06

you. this isn't good to add and then you

51:09

need a lot of engineering teams to actually implement

51:11

that feature. This. Is part of why Stuff

51:13

takes a long time to build on the theory and

51:15

is because. There's. A lot of stakeholders

51:17

involved if I want to go launched

51:19

in nude beach and mean coin. On

51:22

a theory am. I don't have to talk any

51:24

one and only to talk to any committee. I just. Submit.

51:27

Code to the chain and you know the

51:29

chances of catching on are very low, but

51:31

the barrier to deployment is functionally zero. Or

51:34

it's it's some East Yeah it is certainly

51:36

very easy to launch mean coins and other

51:38

like the things that earth. Maybe

51:40

not. are you know my i'm not

51:43

an hundred and ninety them include. or

51:45

maybe the fact that I wrote like

51:47

a Totally Buggies cameo like broken Ducks

51:49

and Ship with a Minute and A

51:51

give you points but then they all

51:53

your house because I never gone. Did

51:55

an M B a complete scam or

51:57

is like maybe not so great? Maybe.

52:00

The American Dream. Oh. Yeah

52:03

I did. you move your a movie does the Americans

52:05

are? I mean I write a lot or how drax

52:07

and like I have i have shuttle i think this

52:10

way so I mean again I'm I'm kind of like

52:12

yeah matthew around but like. I

52:14

think if you're if the fisher you

52:16

on as they are one is like

52:18

really popular so like for example say

52:20

through doesn't try to decks and you're

52:22

like the and we we're a bunch

52:25

of mass economics or geniuses and we

52:27

wrote this academic paper but like the

52:29

best optimal ducks. And you implement

52:31

it. And you your thing is

52:33

popular and everybody wants that it probably would

52:35

like end up getting in there do things

52:37

are not like. He i

52:39

in practice the the dev teams who work on

52:42

all the clients are like. Entity.

52:44

That get funded officer officer grants or

52:46

maybe through some kind of business model.

52:48

But legs open source software in general

52:50

isn't. Doesn't. Have to be.

52:52

There were a lot of. Open source

52:55

software is kind of volunteer base

52:57

yes and like. Blocks.

52:59

And started out more like that at

53:01

first. Now now almost everyone who's been

53:03

working on blocking says like full time

53:06

start up with funding didn't used to

53:08

be that way and so like. I'm.

53:11

Sort of sort of like. You're

53:13

thinking of the old way a little bit.

53:16

Too. Much. Of our and

53:18

so like yeah, I'm indefinite I think like. If

53:21

you except for the new like. Regime.

53:24

Of protocols are start ups than. I

53:26

think you're probably right to the Vm, but like

53:29

I am also. Cosmos

53:31

apps and they're all. all the apps are in front

53:33

of L One. like the Terror Stable one was part

53:35

of L One and it could have had different clients

53:37

that all we're. Implementing

53:40

it unlike you never would have had to worry

53:42

about a bug in that lead into lots of

53:44

funds and services. The Magnus. right? Org

53:46

was also try and l one which I

53:48

think is awesome. I love yet if there's

53:50

a lot of good arguments here that say

53:53

for we eliminated as execution risk and now

53:55

it. This is a similar argument to formal

53:57

verification right? That formal verification doesn't prove. Your.

54:00

Design is correct, but it proves that you

54:02

built the thing correctly. Yeah, I'm

54:05

on your to. I'm also pretty pretty bullish

54:07

on from a verification of ended at nowadays

54:09

it used to be really trendy inbox routinely

54:11

to Eighty Nine and. He. Saw like

54:13

I think maker dow you to

54:16

swap. And. The A Theory and

54:18

be contained deposit raw of formerly verified

54:20

smart contracts and was really expensive. I

54:22

think it's ugly. Two years for the

54:24

maker, no verification thing. now deceased and

54:27

so people. People. Don't

54:29

on from verification. I and I've talked to

54:31

the it's great thuds the three. As for

54:33

my family I was which is awesome but

54:36

I've met the founder of Runtime Verification which

54:38

is the company that did on a surf

54:40

and like he's working on a bunch of

54:43

stuff like improve the process and also think

54:45

like Mr Lab they did the. Likes.

54:48

Of the move, Prove or you can

54:50

I guess like they're probably a mean if

54:52

you don't actually know how to do

54:54

for verification it's probably like bad. If

54:56

do they have this tool that you think

54:58

is formal verification of actually are still

55:00

running insecure contracts and you just are running

55:02

this tool sir. I U S C

55:04

A formal verification is not some magic bullet.

55:07

It doesn't prevent you from designing bad

55:09

systems. Maybe the path to like freezing

55:11

out is through else you contracts is through

55:13

for verification as you're probably five years

55:15

away. But like not not like science fiction.

55:17

The way some people talk about. Not like

55:19

built and seek a purpose. That. Is

55:22

that seems like Sakara Me? I mean there's some.

55:24

there's some really cool like hardware based the taste

55:26

of that like all the time is working on.

55:28

yeah see that. but I sort of. I mean

55:30

like we don't have anything goes real hum proving

55:33

at right now today. Who

55:35

knows though, we really cool down. I. Mean,

55:37

this is one of the things that

55:40

I I love about this had a

55:42

systems as you can never sat that

55:44

never bet against hardware getting faster and

55:46

cheaper every year and then these unexpected

55:49

waterfall moments of software innovation. Yeah

55:51

and if you get if you look

55:53

into like the high performance ck space

55:55

like for example the plenty to in

55:58

the punky three. Community.

56:01

There like thinking about software in the

56:03

same way that the foreign answer team

56:05

does. They're thinking about like every single

56:07

instruction, every single cycle, not just in

56:09

the proving systems themselves which they do

56:11

but also in like with the caveat

56:13

hims ah for example like the new

56:15

as to one K B M or

56:17

with riskier. Ah, you

56:20

actually are like looking at every single cycle

56:22

of your program they are trying to prove

56:24

and you're doing Florida answer shit the like

56:26

dog remove unnecessary instructions and all that and

56:28

it's covert similar way of thinking because it's

56:30

like. We're. Just trying to like. Get.

56:32

And much prove a performance as possible. And it's

56:34

it's. So. Slow unless

56:36

you do this and a. Fluff.

56:39

On behalf. Of a lot

56:41

I think that's as get a place to and

56:43

as anywhere yet. Some. Guy thank you

56:45

for coming on the set the are they for

56:47

having me as a present This project. Validated

56:55

is produced by Gray Bell I with

56:57

help from Raw Skill and Brand an

56:59

Actor and they're a volley Arnie and

57:01

Ainslie Medford Engineering by Tyler Moore said.