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to you by Veev Healthcare. Ladies,

1:01

ladies, chicas, chicas. What up? What it

1:03

do? What it do? We gonna make

1:05

it do what it do, yeah, yeah.

1:08

You and that song. Yeah, yeah. I

1:10

love it. That's it. I love it.

1:12

I'm Sam Sanders. I'm Saeed

1:14

Jones. And I'm Zach Stafford. And

1:16

you are listening to Vibe Check. This

1:28

week, we're talking about Gerard Carmichael's show on

1:30

Max, which Sam loves. Loves so much. Loves

1:33

it so much that he's being quoted in

1:35

articles about it. I know, Lord, I am.

1:38

And then the other person we want to talk about today

1:40

is JoJo Siwa. I know a lot of our listeners are

1:42

not 12 or 13. So

1:44

we'll break down who she is. But she

1:47

has really shaken the tables of the music

1:49

industry this week by saying that she's invented

1:51

a genre called gay pop, which

1:53

is a very confusing thing. Shaking the tables is a

1:55

stretch. She might have kicked one of the legs. Right.

1:58

She kicked one of the legs. I would say, you know, people used

2:01

to say like the worst thing would be to become like the main

2:03

character on Twitter. JoJo Siwa, it's

2:05

like she was the main character on TikTok. And

2:07

the problem with that is it's much more brutal

2:09

than Twitter. Oh, yeah. Those

2:11

stitch videos can get long. And the main character,

2:13

it goes on much longer. So I've been seeing

2:16

people, you know, and some people have

2:18

been dragging. Some people exact our spirits more calling

2:20

in JoJo Siwa's comments on like gay pop for

2:22

like over a week now. It's just like, woof.

2:25

Yeah. Woof. It's been a

2:27

lot. It's been a lie. what's

2:30

how do we say LGBTQ? My friend says,

2:32

Le Juba-tiqua. The Le Juba-tiqua community. Le Juba-tiqua.

2:34

Community. We're

2:37

going to take it even further and answer

2:39

an advice question that has been burning in

2:41

our inbox that we're very, very excited to

2:44

unleash. So before we do all of

2:46

that, I have one thing I want to announce. Drum

2:48

roll. You

2:51

will see across all of our social media handles

2:53

today that our first live show is being announced

2:55

today. It's for Los Angeles on July 14th and

2:57

it will be taking place at The Ford, which

2:59

if you don't know what The Ford is, it

3:02

is a beautiful venue that is the sister in

3:04

my mind to the Hollywood Bowl. They're across the

3:06

street from each other. Tickets are going on sale

3:08

May 14th, but I think you can check online

3:10

and start registering and figure out how you're going

3:13

to get there now. And

3:15

if you aren't in LA, don't worry. We have a

3:17

few more live show announcements coming soon. It's going to

3:19

be so fun. And my favorite part

3:21

of all of this is that when Saeed comes

3:23

to LA for this live show, he's going to

3:25

get to meet Wesley. Oh,

3:27

yeah. It's

3:30

time. I'm excited about that. Zach can attest. He's a

3:32

cute dog. He's so cute. He's very, very sweet. He's

3:35

very cuddly. Yeah. So

3:37

with that, how are we doing? How is

3:40

Wesley, Sam? What's going on in your world?

3:42

Wesley's working my nerves. He's definitely in his

3:44

terrible two-phase, just loud. So

3:47

my vibe with him is just like,

3:49

patience, patience, patience. Besides that, my

3:51

vibe right now is very

3:54

underwhelmed by one particular

3:56

movie. And it's got me feeling like we're going

3:58

to be in a different position. We're in

4:00

this rich cultural moment that

4:03

art could respond to, but

4:05

American art is not doing that. So

4:08

I saw Civil War this past

4:10

weekend, the Kirsten Dunst action

4:13

film in which modern day America falls

4:15

into Civil War. And I

4:17

wanted to believe in it. I wanted it to be good. And

4:19

I was expecting to have a

4:22

film experience similar to the one I had

4:24

seeing Zone of Interest, which

4:26

is a really powerful commentary on

4:28

our moment. Civil

4:30

War was not that. The whole

4:33

film, they avoided politics

4:35

so much, it was

4:37

just toothless. And it could have

4:40

been a discussion of how American politics falls

4:42

into a state of literal war,

4:45

but they avoided that and made

4:47

it one big commentary on the

4:49

ethics of war photography. And

4:51

it's like, baby, photographers didn't cause the war.

4:54

What are you doing here? There's a lesson here. And

4:57

I'm particularly feeling like the last several

4:59

years, a lot of American art hasn't

5:02

spoken to the moment. We have

5:04

to look to films like Zone of

5:06

Interest to really offer commentary on our

5:08

times. And American popular culture is just

5:10

missing that moment and not speaking to

5:12

it. Zach, you saw this as well,

5:14

right? Oh, yeah, I saw the

5:16

film. I was really excited to see it

5:18

because of all this hype. A24 is the

5:21

most expensive film they've ever done. And most

5:23

successful. And yeah, it has Kirsten Dunst in

5:25

it, who is my favorite. I can never

5:27

say her name correctly because I call her

5:29

Kiki, like we're girlfriends. And

5:32

I went being so excited. And then I watched

5:34

the film and I walked out so annoyed. There's

5:36

a lot of story issues. From

5:38

a story perspective, doesn't work

5:40

at all. The world that they've built doesn't

5:42

make sense, doesn't follow its own logic. And

5:44

then also, as a journalist, how they present

5:47

journalism, even in this moment in which America's

5:49

fallen, makes no sense. The one thing I'll

5:51

say is when you watch this movie, notice

5:53

how they're taking all these pictures and there's

5:55

a reporter there, but no one's writing any

5:57

notes. No one's filing anything. No one's sending

5:59

it. in the air, they're just like watching everything.

6:01

It's like, no, no, no, how this works

6:04

is like people submit. This is interesting because,

6:06

and I'm truly not trying to make a

6:08

pun, but I feel like the reception's actually

6:10

been very divided, which may be Alice Garland's

6:12

like, congratulations, you got the point. But,

6:15

you know, I have a friend who is

6:17

a photojournalist and she loved it. Her comments

6:19

was she loved Kristen Dunn's performance as a

6:21

wary war photographer and I think of a

6:23

woman photojournalist, she liked that. And then, you

6:25

know, Jamel Bui, who a lot of his

6:28

writing, and he's very interested in kind of,

6:30

I would say, the living legacy of in

6:32

particular, like, reconstruction in the Civil War and

6:34

how we live here in the United States.

6:36

He seemed to have really liked it too. I'm curious to see

6:39

it. I'm curious to see where I land. I

6:41

want my art to make me

6:43

question my place in things and

6:45

it's possible to leave Civil War if

6:48

you aren't a photojournalist to

6:51

think it's not talking about you. And

6:53

I want some of this work to

6:55

make me question myself and my role in

6:58

these structures and Civil War is not doing

7:00

that, whereas Zone of Interest does.

7:03

Yeah. And what I was saying, I don't think

7:05

this ruins anything. The whole conceit of

7:07

the movie is that they're in New York and

7:09

they're trying to get to D.C. before the Western

7:11

forces invade D.C. and take over the country. And

7:14

the whole goal is that they need to get an interview with

7:16

the President of the United States. And you

7:18

hear that conceit and you're like, oh, well, they must be

7:20

famous journalists, which they are, and they have special access. No,

7:23

they have no access. They're just going out trying to

7:25

get the real. So when it began that way, I

7:28

was like, this isn't realistic at all. This is not

7:30

how this works. So

7:32

anyway, how are you? My

7:35

vibe is so I was thinking

7:37

I had a moment yesterday where

7:40

I what I would say in

7:42

the past would be the

7:45

trimmer before an anxiety quake. I

7:48

was diagnosed with an anxiety disorder pretty early

7:50

in life. What I've

7:52

learned is that there will be these

7:54

little triggers that sometimes can be hours,

7:56

sometimes a couple of days before

7:59

things. anxiety really gets going.

8:03

And, you know, I've just, I've really struggled

8:05

with it. Anxiety has been nearly debilitating for

8:07

me at times where I just, I can't

8:10

function because I get so worked up. It's

8:12

like anxiety is spinning so fast. It just

8:14

shouts down any other thought process. But

8:17

particularly in the last few months, I've had

8:19

these moments where I've noticed a tremor. I've

8:21

had that thought and I've

8:23

been able to say no. Yeah.

8:28

The image I have in my head

8:31

is screaming in a room and

8:34

I just close the door. Yeah. And

8:37

it's, I don't try to justify why I'm

8:39

closing the door. I'll try to get myself,

8:41

you know, I'm just, I'm closing the door.

8:43

I'm closing the door. I love that. And

8:46

it's just taken so long to get to

8:48

this. And I, you know, and

8:50

I don't assume that it will always be this way.

8:52

I think it's more like I'm in a good season

8:54

with my anxiety. But, you know, and I'm sure many

8:57

of our listeners have similar experiences

8:59

with mental health. I think it's

9:01

so great when you have a

9:03

period where you can in real

9:05

time realize that your approach

9:07

to the circumstances has changed and like put yourself

9:09

on the back for it. I love that. Well,

9:11

and hearing you talk about this, it's

9:14

a thing that I've been thinking about and

9:16

trying to work through and do myself. It's

9:18

like when you reach those moments of stress,

9:20

anxiety, depression, whatever, how can you

9:22

look outside of yourself, see the

9:25

situation, and then kind of give

9:27

yourself a recommendation for how to proceed? I

9:29

had this moment last week in therapy where for

9:31

the last few months, I've been kind of fixated

9:33

on this one thing. And when I have downtime

9:35

or I'm bored or I'm lonely, I'll think about this

9:38

event and get mad about it. And

9:40

my therapist, Jonathan, bless you, love you, man.

9:43

He was like, you keep thinking about the event and

9:45

you get sad about the event and the thing, but

9:47

how about you get a little mad at your

9:49

brain for constantly going back there? And

9:52

how about next time it happens, you say, brain, why do you

9:54

keep doing that? And I say that

9:56

and all of a sudden, it's like I can walk away from

9:59

it. walk away from my

10:01

negative thoughts and I can see myself outside

10:03

of them. It's a little bit of like

10:05

third person behavior but like walking to yourself

10:07

can be really effective. I

10:09

think that's really interesting because the

10:11

other thing I've realized is

10:14

– this is very personal but so

10:16

much of my anxiety is connected to

10:18

not just like disappointing other people but

10:20

this deeply innate and I think it

10:22

actually will manifest in our conversation about

10:24

like Jojo Siwa and Gerard Carmichael. The

10:27

sense that there's a way

10:29

in which I could disappoint people in which I

10:31

would be permanently disinvited from the room. Yeah.

10:34

In which my invitation,

10:36

my ticket to get to

10:39

be admitted to civil

10:41

society is dependent on me being

10:43

useful, on me being liked, on

10:45

me being successful. And

10:47

so the other part of this is having to

10:49

get to the point where I realized that those

10:51

anxiety tremors are – and it's funny you mentioned

10:53

the past, Sam. They're past tense.

10:56

It's like a younger, less established

10:59

writer named Said Jones is like, oh, if I

11:01

don't write this in this way then I'm like,

11:04

no, no, no, we're good. We're good. So

11:06

it's interesting. Yeah, you have to develop like a sternness.

11:09

You got to talk to yourself and here's the

11:11

thing about rooms and being invited. There are other

11:13

rooms. There are other rooms and

11:15

what room do you want to be in and don't you have your own

11:17

room? I bet you do. Any who, Zach,

11:19

what's your vibe? Oh

11:21

my God. To build a

11:24

bridge off of Said Jones, I also

11:26

have been dealing with anxiety. But this

11:28

anxiety will surprise nobody because as everyone

11:30

knows, World War III, the nuclear

11:32

war is my big self-war. What

11:35

people and I can surprise everyone else, my

11:37

number two biggest anxiety in the world is

11:39

tax day. So both of these things intersectively

11:41

good. Baby, you better follow that extension. Extension

11:43

is an extension. I was just like, how

11:46

much money do I owe? Why am I

11:48

even paying this? If the world's about to

11:50

end, what's going on? It's not coming on

11:52

now. It's doing this, but I'm caring about

11:54

Uncle Sam. Is Zach saying I should have

11:56

to pay taxes given current events? Listen,

11:58

that's what I thought. And that's what I want

12:00

to share with our listeners today. So I went through that

12:02

dive. I was like, what happens if war does break out?

12:05

Do I not have to file on Monday? And guess what

12:07

listeners? They do have to file. They

12:09

have a manual they released in 1989,

12:11

just in case of nuclear war. You

12:13

can find this online. It is public

12:15

information. And that it says if in

12:17

the case of a nuclear event, taxes will get

12:20

delayed, but in 30 days, they

12:22

will be collecting them in the state's least

12:24

impacted that have the highest yield of tax

12:26

income. So this is what happens. This

12:29

is what happens in this world

12:31

is that taxes continue. The

12:33

only truth in this life are death

12:35

and taxes, baby. Death and

12:37

taxes. And then after death, it's taxes.

12:40

So I'm like, anyway, I've worked up.

12:42

I've been processing this for days and

12:44

now I've let it go. I

12:47

just love how your mind works. I love how your mind

12:49

works. Like you find

12:51

these portals for

12:53

discovery in the weakest. And

12:56

the anxiety will find a will away.

12:58

This is fine too, because I started

13:00

watching the series Fallout on Amazon Prime.

13:03

Zach recommended it. I'm really enjoyed it.

13:07

So it's even funnier now. I'm a match of

13:09

these people. These bunkers still paying their taxes. A

13:13

hundred years after the nuclear apocalypse or

13:15

whatever. And when you watch that show,

13:17

they totally are still paying their taxes. They're still

13:19

very committed to the American project, even though it

13:21

failed. But anyway, well, we're done. Thank

13:23

you for hearing me out. My anxiety has passed

13:25

by talking about it. Well I

13:27

hope listeners, you enjoyed our therapy session

13:30

today. Before we get

13:32

into the episode, we want to thank all of

13:34

you for sending us the fan mail. And of

13:36

course, shout out to those of you who have

13:38

subscribed to our Patreon. Patreon. If

13:43

you want to join the group chat,

13:45

you can find us at patreon.com/vibe check

13:47

we have. So there's two

13:49

ways, you know, there's a timeline where we're putting

13:51

in new content. Just a week

13:53

I record a video where I read

13:56

an extra poem and talk about it

13:58

just for our subscribers. We're also sharing

14:00

our recommendations, we're gonna be doing

14:02

some advice stuff there, it's really fun and

14:04

active. And then there's also a group text,

14:07

just like the three of us, except it's

14:09

our listeners and it's really fun. We're sharing

14:11

things we're reading, we're answering questions. So again,

14:13

you can find us there at patreon.com/vibe check.

14:16

But I am so excited because I've got

14:18

to say, lots going on in

14:20

the world. But we're gonna have a pretty

14:22

fun episode today. I think we're gonna have

14:24

a dare I say a Kiki. So let's

14:26

jump in, shall we? Let's jump.

14:29

Let's go. All

14:38

right, listeners, first up, we're gonna

14:41

talk about our dear baby gays.

14:43

And if you don't know that

14:46

term, dear, the stretch, you were

14:48

like our queer brothers and sisters. And

14:50

I was like, it's a community. Some people are just neighbors. All

14:54

my queer folk ain't my dear folk. Okay.

14:57

So we're gonna get through this. This

15:02

is the beginning to Wow. All right. So

15:04

as you can tell, we're talking about baby

15:06

gays, specifically to baby gays who have captured

15:08

our imaginations the past few weeks. Their names

15:10

are Jojo Siwa and Gerard Carmichael. These

15:13

two people are pretty famous and were

15:15

famous before they came out as queer.

15:18

Gerard came out in his Emmy award

15:20

winning documentary, one man show special called

15:22

Ruth annual, which I thought was stunning

15:24

and beautiful. He's now followed up with

15:26

that with a new show called the

15:28

Gerard Carmichael reality show, which I

15:30

will let Sam get to the describing that

15:33

in a minute. And then we have on

15:35

the other side of the table today, Jojo

15:37

Siwa, who is a young singer, songwriter, performer.

15:39

She became very famous from the show Dance

15:41

Moms. But she came out a few

15:43

years ago. And in the wake of that coming out, she has

15:45

rebranded herself as a pop star,

15:48

which makes sense. You know,

15:50

child stars do this a lot. Miley Cyrus

15:52

has done this. Olivia Rodrigo has done this.

15:54

This is very much par for the course.

15:56

However, very rarely have we had the crossover

15:58

of child star to openly queer. your pop

16:00

star who thinks that they've created pop

16:02

music for queer people because that just

16:04

is silly and she's facing a ton

16:06

of backlash. So today our segment is

16:08

really about these baby gays and these

16:10

decisions we're seeing inside the celebrity industrial

16:12

complex to come out and then monetize

16:14

it and expose a lot of truths

16:16

about yourself and I think we have

16:18

some advice on what to tell others

16:20

who are coming out on what not

16:22

to maybe do. Yeah. And

16:24

can I say one thing about baby gays? So

16:27

the thing about the term baby gays and really

16:29

it could be, you know, baby trans,

16:31

baby bi's, you know, it's a

16:33

general thing. My sense is that

16:36

gender and sexuality exist outside of

16:38

time. So when we say

16:40

baby gays, we're not necessarily referring to

16:42

young people. JoJo Siwa is, I think

16:44

it's just barely 21 but Thoreau Carmichael

16:47

is, I think in his late 30s. In

16:49

his late 30s, right? Yeah. You

16:51

could be a baby gay. I know some

16:54

baby gays in their 50s, for example. But

16:56

when we say that, we're simply talking to

16:58

someone who is stepping into this type of

17:00

sexual or gender expression pretty early on for

17:02

them. It's not about how old they are

17:04

and I think I actually said this last

17:06

week. The thing about that is there

17:09

can often be a conflation where like JoJo

17:11

Carmichael, you're like you're grown, you're an adult

17:13

but at the same time when it comes

17:15

to expressing their sexual identity, it's

17:18

kind of like they're a teenager again in weird

17:20

ways. So that's what we're pointing attention to. And

17:22

this is what we want to talk about. It's

17:24

not just that Gerard came out and JoJo came

17:26

out. In doing so, they

17:29

both kind of made spectacles of

17:31

themselves. Gerard has this reality

17:33

show that has been embarrassing

17:35

for himself and JoJo

17:37

has proclaimed herself the queen of

17:39

gay pop with a lackluster single

17:43

and some music and visuals and choreo

17:45

and costuming that has just been ridiculous.

17:47

So it's about that. It's like both

17:50

of these individuals trying to come into

17:52

their own as queer people but seemingly

17:56

embarrassing themselves in the process. I

18:00

love that you both set this up like

18:02

that because what you're getting at is, at

18:04

its most basic form, adolescence. We all go

18:06

through adolescence. And what we're talking about is

18:08

an identity adolescence. That you start becoming aware

18:11

of the body, your body, how it moves

18:13

through the world, what world it is in,

18:15

and you begin learning. And the issue, what

18:17

we're seeing play out at really fast paces

18:19

and at high scale, is baby gays are

18:21

coming out and think they know everything and

18:23

they don't. So let's zero in on JoJo

18:26

Siwa just for a moment. She

18:28

has been working since she was a child. Literally,

18:30

I think Saeed told me before this, she

18:32

started getting her hair dyed at two. Her

18:34

mother started dyeing her hair blonde when she

18:36

was two years old. And JoJo Siwa kind

18:38

of made it onto the screen at nine

18:41

years old, so my goodness. Yeah,

18:43

so young. So she had this huge

18:45

career. For years she ran Nickelodeon, like

18:47

was running that company and really has

18:49

made a ton of money. As

18:52

she's rebranded, people have been really accepting

18:54

of her surprisingly. Her audience is very

18:56

young. It was pretty

18:58

openly, she of course faced some backlash, but generally people

19:00

were really into it because her aesthetic

19:02

is so fun and campy and commercial

19:04

and child friendly. But she's now reimagining

19:06

herself. And in the midst of that,

19:08

she has now presented herself as a

19:10

gaga mixed with kiss, mixed with lots

19:12

of other things. This is the thing.

19:15

So some of the visuals are crazy.

19:17

There's one visual she had on some

19:19

red carpets recently where she looked like

19:21

she was out of the band Kiss.

19:24

The dark, metallic, sparkly look.

19:26

And she was asked what

19:28

the reference was there. And she

19:30

was asked about Kiss. She didn't even know who

19:33

they were. She didn't know who Kiss was, right?

19:35

She's released this single called Karma that she

19:38

performs all over the place. The

19:40

song is not good. And now folks are saying

19:42

that she stole it from somebody. There's a 10

19:44

year old version of this song recorded by somebody

19:46

else with the whole video. And

19:48

she's just been striking out. And I

19:50

think the most egregious iteration of her

19:53

outness right now is in an interview, she

19:55

said that she was creating quote,

19:58

gay pop. To which everyone. said,

20:00

girl, get in line. You aren't the first

20:02

person. It's even worse, because she was like

20:04

gay pop, you know, like K-pop, which I'm

20:06

like, well, K-pop. I have a lot of

20:08

problems with you, actually. And

20:11

what has been stunning about this moment is

20:13

usually when someone missteps, you know, like Sam

20:15

Smith, who has come out as

20:17

part of the community in various chapters of their

20:19

life, famously said that they were the first queer

20:22

person to win an Oscar, and they weren't, and

20:24

they were dragged for it. But this happens a

20:26

lot. People come out and they don't know their

20:28

history. However, what I'm seeing these days is

20:31

that celebrities are responding to JoJo Siwa,

20:33

specifically people like Tegan and Sarah. Tegan

20:35

and Sarah responded. Iconic queer musicians who

20:37

were like, what? Posting Tegan and

20:39

Sarah was like, we have been doing this forever.

20:41

So to my sisters, what do you make of

20:43

this, this kind of habit we're seeing happen in

20:45

real time where people don't see the shoulders that

20:47

they're arriving on? And what do we owe people

20:50

who came before us when we come out? Because

20:52

we're still, these are adolescent gay people. You know,

20:54

they may not know. So with JoJo Siwa in

20:56

particular, I think it's a little different from Gerard.

20:59

You know, JoJo Siwa came out when she was what, 18, 19? Yeah.

21:03

She's been on TV, and not just

21:05

TV, reality TV where her

21:07

mother was also a star,

21:10

which is to say also directly profiting. And

21:12

I think it's really important to think about,

21:15

we've learned a lot recently, like shows like

21:17

Quiet On Set, about child stars and their

21:19

relationships to their parents, you know, their sense

21:21

of the world outside of their little Hollywood

21:24

bubble. I think all of that's really significant.

21:26

So when JoJo Siwa

21:28

said something so misguided, like an ahistorical,

21:30

not just ahistorical, but an arrogantly ahistorical

21:32

comment, I said, well, why wouldn't she?

21:35

You know what I mean? You're 20 years old, you just came

21:37

out. The thing is, usually

21:40

when a sheltered, closeted, you know,

21:42

actual young person comes out, they're

21:45

making a fool of themselves in

21:47

front of their friends and family, in front

21:49

of their classmates, hopefully in front of a

21:51

counselor or a mentor. The

21:54

problem, and I do, I really, I have

21:56

deep empathy for JoJo Siwa, because as soon

21:58

as I started kind of... Learning about

22:00

her. I was like damn is there ever a

22:02

moment? She hasn't had a camera in front of

22:04

her Could you imagine? Having a camera

22:06

and having tick-tock and that kind like you said

22:09

Tegan and set that level of attention in

22:11

the first year of your Coming out

22:13

journey, of course, you're gonna make missteps.

22:15

How could you not the missteps are

22:17

in fact a vital part process it's

22:20

kind of like how boredom is linked to creativity,

22:22

but Yikes to

22:24

do it in front of cameras to do

22:26

it without people guiding you towards more productive

22:28

language. Oh, yeah so I Am

22:32

looking at Jojo Siwa and actually

22:34

seeing her having to do to

22:36

coming out She's

22:38

having to become an adult after

22:41

being a child star Absolutely process that's

22:43

hard and she's having to become queer

22:46

after not being out as queer and

22:49

Both of those things are hard But it

22:51

is especially hard for young women who have

22:53

been child stars to become

22:55

seen as fully adult

22:58

women I had a

23:00

conversation a while back with Ann

23:02

Powers NPR music critic We're

23:04

talking about Taylor Swift's newest album and why

23:06

still to this day some people see her

23:08

as a kid and Ann said

23:11

something to me that really stuck with me

23:13

She said for women pop stars who became

23:15

pop stars when they were young for

23:17

many consumers of their art

23:20

They will be girls until they have

23:22

children That is the only way

23:25

that a really young girl in the spotlight gets

23:27

to become a woman And

23:29

if you're Jojo Siwa and you're up

23:31

against that You're gonna fight and

23:33

fight and fight to be seen as a

23:36

woman knowing that like these rules of matriarchy

23:39

Kind of make you seem like less than and so

23:41

you have that step So she's already dealing

23:43

with that and on top of that you have to be coming

23:45

out in the midst of all this as well It's

23:48

really hard She has a double burden on her and

23:50

I think it would have been easier for her if

23:52

she were a man I think

23:54

that when you're doing it as a woman There's

23:57

just like you are literally holding two

24:00

pots of water at the same time. So

24:02

I really feel for her. I

24:04

also think that, to Saeed's point, there

24:07

used to be a time when you just

24:09

wouldn't see this. I think about my journey

24:11

of coming out, which took years. Thank God

24:13

it wasn't on camera. I was

24:16

a mess. I was a mess

24:18

and a half, and I had to have some really

24:20

close friends and family sit me down and help me get

24:22

myself together. And thank God no one was rolling on

24:24

that shit. And I feel bad

24:26

for people like Gerard and JoJo, who

24:29

have tied their coming out stories to their

24:31

livelihoods. What a tough spot to

24:33

be in. Yeah, and I would, to take it

24:35

to Gerard a bit as well, I think it's

24:37

something they both have in common. That again, I,

24:39

it's like, this word's overused

24:41

too much now, but I do cringe. I mean,

24:43

it is like, oh God. But you know, one

24:45

thing that I see often, and I certainly did

24:47

it myself, you know, coming out, babe, you don't

24:49

just come out. You're like sticking a rainbow on

24:51

everything. You know, I always say, and gay men

24:54

do this in particular, where they're like,

24:56

all of a sudden they're like, straight people, straight

24:58

people, this breeders. Like you're

25:00

just, any opportunity you can

25:02

like loudly announce your rejection

25:05

of the closet and the kind of culture

25:07

that closeted you, you take. And

25:10

so with both of them, I

25:13

understand like the expression in extremists.

25:16

And with Gerard, you know, and it's interesting,

25:18

like you were pointing out, like the kind of

25:20

unique gender dynamics for people who present as women.

25:23

For men, and I would say, especially for black men,

25:26

you know, we deal when we're coming

25:28

up with such rigidity. So much of

25:30

black manhood is kind of stand up

25:32

straight and tighten and fix it, you

25:34

know, like be stone, be almost inhuman,

25:36

nothing can faze you. This world is

25:38

tough for black men and you've got

25:40

to be tough in response. So though

25:42

you could not pay me to watch

25:44

his show, I think what

25:46

his version of JoJo Siwa's like,

25:49

ugh, ness, is the messiness, is

25:52

the stuff where we're like, this shouldn't be on TV.

25:54

Why are you showing this? Why do you have Tyler?

25:56

Why would you, this doesn't make sense, because I think

25:58

for him, it's entirely... It's

26:00

almost like a violent fighting

26:02

back of the pain that

26:04

he's been kind of privately dealing with. I

26:06

think it's his attempt to kind of let

26:09

it all hang out. I don't love seeing it.

26:12

I feel less sympathy for him than for Jojo.

26:15

It seems like Jojo Siwa is hurting no

26:17

one but herself. Gerard is hurting

26:19

the folks that he loves. So we've talked before

26:21

about how on this reality show, he had

26:24

previously confessed his romantic feelings to

26:26

his dear friend Tyler, the creator

26:28

via text message. Tyler ignored it

26:30

but then for his reality show, Gerard

26:32

brought it up again with Tyler on camera.

26:34

It felt pretty weird and mean. Tyler

26:36

even addressed it in his Coachella set

26:38

last weekend. There's been other

26:41

situations where Gerard is bringing over random

26:43

Grindr hookups and sucking their feet on

26:45

camera but this last episode felt really

26:47

cruel to me and it was not

26:49

about the sexuality. It was just about

26:51

him being a good friend. He

26:53

has a woman who he grew up with,

26:55

a childhood friend. They both wanted to

26:58

be famous when they got older. Gerard made it and

27:00

he said, if I ever make it, you can come

27:02

stay with me in LA and you can try to

27:04

audition as well and become famous. He brings

27:06

her out to his house and says, stay here while

27:08

you audition. From the start, he

27:10

drags her for being messy and it's kind

27:12

of mocking her while she's in his house.

27:16

Then he surprises her with what he

27:18

says is an apartment that he got for her

27:20

but he doesn't tell her that he only got

27:22

her the apartment for one month. He

27:25

plays this woman on camera and jokes about

27:27

it in a comedy sketch within the show

27:29

in front of an audience of strangers. That

27:32

is cruel and that is separate and apart

27:35

from whatever sexuality Gerard is. I

27:37

think that what's happening with Gerard

27:39

is two different things. There's

27:42

the phenomenon of Gerard trying to figure out how to

27:44

be a black gay man and there's a phenomenon of

27:46

Gerard not knowing how to be rich and famous and

27:49

just being an asshole to folks who love him

27:51

in the process. I have no sympathy

27:53

for that. I have none for it. Yeah.

27:56

Well, to wrap, I think we could talk about

27:58

this forever. I'd love to end on... A

28:00

really special viral moment that I love and

28:03

I will preface this with I am friends with

28:05

these people I'm about to refer to I love

28:07

that this happened between them and I think Gerard

28:09

and Jojo should listen to their words So

28:11

we're gonna play a quick clip here from Laverne

28:13

Cox meeting Dylan Mulvaney for the first time And

28:15

if you don't know who Dylan Mulvaney is she

28:18

is a huge TikTok star She famously dealt with

28:20

a Bud Light backlash that you probably saw where

28:22

she was on a can and it tanked the

28:24

sales of the company and it was very controversial

28:27

So this clip you're about to hear is

28:29

from her first meeting of Laverne Cox two months

28:31

before the Bud Light I'm about to walk up

28:33

to Laverne Cox with the Grammys. She's on my

28:35

vision board this year You were on my

28:37

2023 vision board and now I'm finally getting

28:39

a meet. It's only February I

28:42

was on your 2023 vision board.

28:44

You weren't. That's lovely. It's insane

28:46

that you're like So

28:49

much of your life Makes

28:51

you do things for yourself. Everything cannot

28:53

be for the public. They love it.

28:55

They love it, but everything cannot be

28:57

for them How

29:00

do you feel hearing that as people who've

29:02

had to navigate a private life in our

29:04

own careers I feel that's so true and

29:06

I feel like for Jojo that is the

29:08

advice that she needs I think

29:10

Gerard needs some more advice, which is don't

29:12

be an asshole Yeah, what also happened in this

29:14

last episode of his show Gerard's

29:17

best friend from childhood asked him to be

29:19

the best man for his wedding And

29:21

he was like everyone's getting their tuxedos from men's

29:23

warehouse. Go get it. Gerard doesn't go get it

29:25

He shows up the day of the wedding with

29:27

the Tom Ford tux Doesn't

29:29

fit the I'm like wardrobe so

29:31

he leaves to go get the right tux and misses

29:33

the wedding And this is all on the

29:35

show just like cruel. So for me, it's like

29:38

Gerard Don't be an asshole to the

29:40

people who were there for you from the start

29:42

and that is separate from your sexuality Just be

29:44

nice to your people, you know, well, let's

29:46

say we have two modes of baby gay here Bring

29:50

us home for the people on

29:52

the Jojo Siwa journey. Here's what I

29:55

would say the public Will

29:57

take any and everything you give They

30:00

will just eat it up, eat it up, eat it up, whether

30:02

or not it is to your benefit or not. Now,

30:05

granted, the problem is when you've been in

30:07

the closet, of course, part

30:09

of your expression is going to tap into

30:11

the freedom that you don't have to hide

30:14

things anymore. Jojosea has spent 18, 19, 20

30:17

years of her life suppressing what she

30:20

wants to express, but you're going to

30:22

have to learn to discern. And

30:24

that's only going to come from people in your

30:26

close circle who can help you do that. TikTok

30:28

will not. To the people on the Gerard Carmichael

30:30

journey, I would say, let's think

30:33

about Tony Morrison's advice. Tony Morrison

30:35

said, the function of racism is

30:37

distraction. I think some people

30:39

get so distracted by their struggles with

30:41

sexuality that they forget about the rest

30:43

of their moral development. And

30:46

it sounds like for Gerard,

30:49

dealing with coming out of the closet is the least

30:51

of his worries. He needs to learn how to be

30:53

a person. He needs to learn how to

30:55

be a human. Yeah. Yeah. He's

30:57

surrounded by people who love him, black people who love him

30:59

and have been with him from the beginning. And he's just

31:01

mean to them. Treat him like this. I also would say

31:03

both of them just need a measure of time. Not

31:06

everything you do has to be on a camera the next day. Right.

31:10

Yeah. And my final note on this is I

31:12

think Gerard for me, and even Jojo in some ways, but mostly

31:14

Gerard for me reminds me that the magical

31:16

thing about coming out is that is a person's

31:18

moment in which they begin to tell their truth.

31:20

But it's also a moment in which they begin

31:22

to learn how to accept love that they've been

31:24

rejecting. A love for themselves, a love for other

31:26

people because they haven't been allowed to be themselves.

31:29

And I think when people are coming out, there

31:31

is the identity part of this. There's also the

31:33

feelings part of this. How do I

31:35

now get hugged in a way that feels good? How

31:37

do I get loved in a way that feels good?

31:39

And you need time to figure that out. And Gerard,

31:41

when I watch a show, I'm seeing someone struggling. In

31:43

real time. You know, in real time, it's an

31:45

opportunity to be loved and having never let himself

31:47

be loved before. And that's a very

31:49

tenuous situation to find yourself in. So

31:52

I wish love to these people. Good luck

31:54

on your journey. Stay our long and we'll

31:56

be here. Put the cameras down,

31:58

kids. Put the cameras down. you when I

32:00

got moving from lack everything sounds like abundance

32:03

everything sounds like a bun yeah but it isn't whoo

32:06

all right well that we're gonna take

32:09

a quick break but stay tuned we'll

32:11

be right back with one listener question

32:13

that's been burning a hole in our

32:16

inbox today and every day planned parenthood

32:24

is committed to ensuring that everyone

32:26

has the information and resources they

32:28

need to make their own decisions

32:30

about their bodies including

32:33

abortion care lawmakers

32:35

who oppose abortion are attacking Planned

32:37

Parenthood which means affordable high-quality basic

32:39

health care for more than two

32:42

million people is at stake the

32:44

right to control your own body and

32:46

get the health care everyone needs has

32:48

been stolen and now politicians

32:51

in nearly every state have introduced

32:53

bills that would block people from

32:55

getting the sexual and reproductive care

32:57

they need Planned

32:59

Parenthood believes everyone deserves health care

33:02

it's a human right that's why they

33:04

fight every day to push for common-sense

33:06

policies that protect your right to control

33:08

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33:10

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33:13

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33:15

Parenthood needs your support now more

33:17

than ever with supporters

33:19

like you you can help reclaim

33:21

your rights and protect and expand

33:24

access to abortion care visit

33:27

Planned Parenthood org slash

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future that's Planned Parenthood org

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33:35

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34:18

right, my loves, we are back. And you

34:20

know how people say winter is cuffing season?

34:23

Well, it is 80 degrees today in

34:25

Columbus, so I'm officially declaring it fucking

34:27

season, that's right. The girls

34:29

are out in the streets and Anita been

34:32

vibed. We're out here living, we're feeling bright.

34:34

It's spring, it's spring. And so

34:36

we thought it'd be a great time to

34:38

take some advice questions. And we just got,

34:40

we got a juicy one for you, friends.

34:42

So we're going all in. So juicy, we

34:44

had to edit it. Uh-huh, one question from

34:46

Anonymous. Here we go. I'm a

34:48

queer man in my mid-20s and have

34:50

been seeing a guy for almost six

34:53

months now. And during this time,

34:55

I found myself falling for him hard. He

34:58

checks all the boxes in terms of how I

35:00

would want to be treated in a relationship. And

35:02

he really goes out of his way to show

35:04

me that he likes and cares about me. He

35:07

ended a long-term relationship within the past

35:09

year and has talked about not being

35:11

ready for a relationship yet, which makes

35:13

sense and is something I

35:15

respect. All right, well, between the

35:17

two of us, he is great about showing me

35:19

that I am a priority to him, but

35:23

he rejects the notion that we are

35:25

functioning as a relationship and

35:27

has introduced me as his friend when

35:30

meeting people he knows in public. While

35:33

we have had conversations about being

35:35

romantically exclusive and sexually

35:37

open, which would be ideal for

35:39

me, this person says in parenthesis,

35:42

he's resistant to commit to romantic

35:44

exclusivity, arguing that since we

35:46

aren't dating, he is not at a place

35:48

to cut off other people he feels he

35:50

has connections with. Now I'm

35:52

in the position of where I sometimes feel like

35:54

I'm being strung along, with no real idea of

35:57

whether this will lead anywhere or whether

35:59

he expects me to... to be an option

36:01

among an undefined number of other

36:03

options for perpetuity. How

36:05

would you all read this situation? Am I

36:07

a clown if I continue to see him?

36:11

I'm triggered. Go ahead, Zach. Go ahead.

36:13

Go ahead. I'm triggered. I

36:15

think all of us have been in this situation. So

36:18

I think from reading this from my

36:20

position of having gone through this, you

36:22

know, this person has told you exactly

36:24

where they stand with all of this

36:26

and they've said they don't want exclusivity,

36:28

they don't want this to be a

36:30

solo thing, they're open to other people

36:33

and I think you have your answer there. You

36:35

also have the answer to what you need too.

36:37

You want something that isn't this. So I don't

36:39

think it's for me not too complicated. I think

36:41

what gets complicated is staying in a situation

36:43

which we would call this a situationship where

36:46

things are vague, they're not what you want

36:48

and you are expressing that or when you are

36:50

expressing it, your partner isn't, you know, affirming it,

36:52

receiving it or in your case it sounds like

36:55

they're saying, love that for you, not for me

36:57

but if you're going to be around me, this

36:59

is what I need to get through this. So

37:01

I think it's like you're not done

37:03

for doing this. I think it's just they're

37:05

telling you what they want and you're not really taking

37:07

it the hard time. It's not dumb but

37:09

it's like that love song, fools rush in. Yeah, I mean, yeah.

37:11

Yeah, fools rush in, yeah. I

37:13

as soon as I read

37:16

this letter, my first thought was, oh, I

37:19

feel really bad for this person because

37:21

they feel stuck. Feeling

37:23

stuck is hard. Feeling

37:25

stuck sucks and to hear this letter

37:27

writer also say, I feel like a

37:29

clown for feeling stuck, oh, that broke

37:31

my heart. So first I want to

37:33

say, you're not wrong to feel this

37:36

way. Do not beat yourself up over

37:38

these feelings. It is totally appropriate six

37:40

months in to want to have a

37:42

defined relationship conversation. Some people say you

37:44

can have it as early as three months in. So I'd say

37:46

first, don't beat yourself up for feeling

37:48

how you feel and for feeling stuck and

37:51

then two, what do you do when

37:53

you feel stuck? A thing I try to

37:55

ask myself when I feel stuck. Instead

37:57

of just saying, I'm stuck in the mud. to

38:00

myself, is it mud or is

38:02

it clay? Is it built to

38:04

wash off of me or is it

38:06

a thing that I can mold and make something out

38:08

of and build something productive out of it? And

38:11

the only way to figure out if it's mud

38:13

or clay is to really be

38:15

open and honest about how you feel

38:17

and what you want and to say

38:19

it out loud and verbalize it to

38:21

yourself and to the other person. And

38:24

once you do that, then you can

38:26

answer some questions. Is

38:28

it time to get out of this mud, rinse off

38:30

and move on or is there

38:32

some clay here that I can build something with?

38:35

But you only know that and you can

38:37

only answer that question once you're really, really

38:39

honest about what you want and what he

38:41

wants. Verbalize it. Write

38:44

down how you feel. A good exercise is

38:46

to even write down what you want in

38:48

a partner. Write down what

38:50

you want in a partner. And if this

38:53

person is not giving you the

38:55

things on that list, that's a tell. For

38:58

starters, you cannot feel mad at yourself

39:00

for feeling stuck in the mud. The

39:02

only thing that you have to do

39:04

is find some way forward and figure

39:06

out what's mud and what's clay. And

39:09

it might be that you find your

39:11

clay and build something without this guy,

39:14

but that's fine. But to start, you

39:16

have to own your feelings and not

39:18

be ashamed of them. You are not

39:20

a clown. You're just stuck. I

39:22

said this actually before we started recording, but

39:24

this letter writer says like I'm in my

39:27

mid-20s and I'm like, listen, who

39:29

is in their mid-20s or has been in

39:31

their mid-20s and hasn't six months into being

39:33

with someone, found themselves in this situation. I

39:36

said, you haven't lived, you haven't loved and

39:38

you haven't looked if you haven't found yourself

39:40

in this dilemma. And I think that's not

39:42

a joke. It's important to acknowledge that this

39:45

is very natural. And I do

39:47

feel that there is a call and

39:49

response between our two conversations today, because

39:51

like I was saying with Joja Siwa

39:53

and Gerard Carmichael, one of the challenges,

39:55

particularly for queer people, is

39:58

much of our first few... experience

40:00

our first few years and this could be

40:02

about friendship, this could be about the kinds

40:04

of places we start to party and this

40:06

can certainly be about the kinds of people

40:09

we hook up and start having relationships with

40:11

is that we're responding to lack. Many of

40:13

us didn't get to go to

40:15

prom with our boyfriends. We didn't

40:17

get to exchange cute little Valentine

40:19

cards with people of the same gender

40:22

we have crushes with. That's happening more

40:24

now but more times than not many

40:26

of us are playing catch-up and so

40:28

it's like you may be in your

40:30

mid-20s but damn you might as well

40:32

be 14 or 15 and so the

40:34

fumblings I think make perfect sense

40:37

and I think they are a part of the process.

40:39

You're not a clown, you're

40:41

a person on a journey and

40:44

the other thing is I think responding

40:46

to lack also means that especially

40:49

early on but maybe later on too

40:52

relationships that aren't directly

40:54

painful, abusive or

40:56

frustrating can read as good.

41:01

There's a difference between good and good enough.

41:04

I think this person is in one of those

41:06

situations I've been there. I think

41:09

the three of us all have been there

41:11

where you're in a relationship that's good enough

41:14

but the tension, the sense of feeling

41:16

stuck is actually your consciousness

41:18

beginning to tell you but is

41:20

this good? Is this actually what

41:22

you want or is this just

41:25

nice or is this just better

41:27

than all the shit you've been

41:29

used to? I think Zach is

41:31

very right. This person

41:34

has been very direct with you. I

41:37

feel like a lot of our letters, we get

41:39

a lot of gas lighting, we

41:41

get a lot of obfuscation and

41:43

stuff like that too. This

41:45

person's credit, I think he's actually been

41:47

pretty clear about what he

41:49

wants now. I want to say

41:53

the way I would probably hit a

41:55

person if I've been with them

41:57

for six months and then they called me. friend

42:03

the way I would go to jail

42:05

that day like that's that's really frustrating

42:07

and painful but aside that like this

42:09

person has been very clear so I

42:11

would say maybe it's time for you to

42:13

respond to that clarity. If he's painted a picture

42:16

and you don't like what you're seeing recognize

42:18

your picture. I also think

42:20

that every time we

42:22

get a letter asking for advice part of

42:25

my answer is read that letter

42:27

to the person you're talking about. You always say

42:29

that. Listen and I'm gonna tell you why. Dear

42:32

writer I want you to read this

42:34

line to him. Now I'm in

42:36

the position where I sometimes feel like I'm being

42:38

strung along with no real idea of whether this

42:40

will lead anywhere or whether you expect me to

42:43

be an option among a number of

42:45

people into perpetuity. Say that to him and see

42:47

what he says. Say it to him

42:49

to his face see what he says and see how you

42:51

feel and let that guide

42:54

you but you cannot continue to

42:57

act like your emotions aren't

42:59

worthwhile or aren't valid. You aren't a

43:02

clown. It's real. Yeah. Feeling this way

43:04

is real. And my personal

43:06

advice that I would give to this person

43:08

because I related to this so much. My

43:10

early 20s mid-20s were so much of this

43:12

vagueness of pursuing someone who obviously

43:14

wasn't available or even told me they weren't available

43:17

but I was hoping if I was good enough

43:19

if I was fabulous enough if I was fun

43:21

enough they would change their mind and they never

43:23

changed their mind or they didn't change

43:25

it fast enough maybe years later they did. And

43:28

what I would say is you know take the very

43:30

you know Sex and City talks with us all the

43:32

time. A man's are treating you like this. Treat him

43:34

similarly back. Go date other people. Don't stop living

43:36

your life. You know you're not getting your

43:38

body's telling you you need more so go

43:40

find that more. You have agency in this.

43:43

You can go find abundance somewhere else and

43:45

you know if that person comes back great.

43:47

That happens to many of us. I've had

43:49

it happen where someone's like slight bulb you

43:51

are actually what I wanted. I'm now ready

43:53

but right now they're not ready. So accept

43:55

it and move and you keep moving and

43:57

that's going to do that. Someone told me.

44:00

wants someone much smarter than me and I forget who it is or

44:02

if I read it somewhere. But they

44:04

said in matters of the heart, the

44:07

only yes is an enthusiastic yes.

44:10

If they cannot give you an enthusiastic

44:12

yes, an enthusiastic I want you, just

44:14

a no. If he can't

44:16

say it's you, but it's all

44:18

these over here too, that's not a yes. It's

44:20

not even a maybe. That's a

44:22

just you're in the queue. You want an enthusiastic

44:24

yes and if he can't give you that, go

44:27

find it somewhere else. It's also kind of amazing

44:29

how and this can be true

44:31

for different types of relationships, but especially like

44:33

an intense romantic relationship. There's this way I

44:35

think of kind of disappearing the

44:37

rest of the world. Like you really do

44:40

kind of you can begin to forget your

44:42

options. You kind of forget what it was

44:44

like before you were what you know, it's

44:46

just it's like the horizon kind of disappears

44:48

and and you're right in this

44:50

letter is interesting. This person knows like he's out

44:53

there dating and seeing other people and so I

44:55

would say like you can too. Like

44:57

before you get to the option that you're like

44:59

here it is. Here's the ultimatum. Maybe

45:01

you just go on a few other

45:03

dates, have a few other hookups and

45:05

just kind of recalibrate yourself

45:07

because part of what's going on here

45:09

and I did cut out the sentence.

45:11

It's like this person said, listen, I'm

45:13

getting so much of what I want

45:15

from this person. I'm just not getting

45:18

the commitment aspect. So I'm like maybe

45:20

you recalibrate a little bit and you're

45:22

like, you know what? I move you

45:24

to peg two instead of peg one.

45:26

Here's my question though. This letter

45:28

writer is so hung up over this

45:30

person. If they tried to go

45:33

out and be a freak and hook up one night, could they

45:35

even do it in earnest or they just be out there

45:37

stumbling? I kind of feel like does this

45:39

person need a little bit of closure with

45:41

this before they can even dabble elsewhere? I

45:45

would hate for this person to feel a

45:47

pressure to go out, hook

45:49

up and then they're miserable the whole time because they're

45:52

thinking about this. Is there a

45:54

way for them to get some clarity from this first

45:56

before they go out? I guess

45:58

it depends. I mean to me. If

46:00

I'm being very honest, I feel like if this person

46:02

were to as you said read the

46:04

letter or just presented like will you or won't

46:06

You I think this person's their partner is gonna

46:09

say I won't I've been clear that I won't

46:11

yes So maybe before we get to that step

46:14

I just know me in that

46:16

position when I've been caught up with someone knowing it can't

46:18

be but I'm still caught up and I try to go

46:20

dabble elsewhere and all I think about is them. You know,

46:22

well, I'm just saying Maybe

46:24

before we get to what could become

46:26

the yes Yes, this or that

46:28

kind of option where it's I think pretty clear this

46:30

person would walk away from them to be honest You

46:33

know, maybe you can see if you can recalibrate,

46:35

you know your vibe with them That's possible because

46:37

that's what y'all said you wanted to do in

46:39

the first place to be clear That's the other

46:42

thing if you have

46:44

a direct conversation with someone and then they're

46:46

honoring the conversation that you had and then

46:48

you begin to melt differently It's kind of

46:50

like well, he's doing what y'all said you

46:53

wanted to do honey. So yeah. Yeah, he

46:55

can't really yeah Yeah, also stop calling yourself

46:57

a clown for having feelings. Oh my god,

46:59

not a clown. Yeah Yeah,

47:02

you know, maybe you are a clown but when

47:04

it comes to a relationship, we're all at the

47:06

circus You know what I mean? Like it's there's

47:08

something that we have to About

47:11

sex hookups relationships, whatever you want

47:13

to call all of this that is foolish. It's

47:15

not It's not our most

47:18

Self-actualized self there's such vulnerability there's confusing

47:20

and the other thing is you don't

47:22

get to like have rehearsals

47:24

for these conversations and interactions What happens kind

47:26

of happens and so yeah, you feel silly

47:28

just don't beat yourself up for it. Just

47:30

say we're all clown Yeah, we're all clown.

47:32

Yeah Well, we're gonna leave

47:35

it there for now But listener,

47:37

I mean, you know if this

47:39

advice helps and you you try it out

47:41

and you want to follow up I would love to hear

47:43

a follow-up letter. I'm just saying Anyway,

47:45

we'll take a break for now and we'll be

47:48

right back with recommendations I want

47:50

a follow-up video of this person in the

47:52

club getting their life Taking shots

47:54

off our dude didn't want them to go to the club I

48:00

did this whole conversation about people not exposing

48:02

vulnerable moments of the life. It's just for

48:04

us. It's just for the aunties. It's

48:07

just for the aunties. Listen, once you read

48:09

this man fulfilled, you go to the club,

48:11

you videotape it, and show us proof of

48:13

life. Show us proof of life. Hey,

48:21

listener, are you happy with your current chicken

48:23

wings? Do you wish you had something a

48:26

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48:28

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48:30

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check. I.

50:05

Listeners we are back and before we

50:07

in the show. I. Want us

50:09

all to share? Some things happen as

50:11

keep our vibes right this week. Some

50:13

recommendations Sassy With Start with you. That

50:16

I love suit So I have news

50:18

but if you follow me on Instagram

50:20

you probably already know this news. but

50:22

strangely of the show I got to

50:24

produce step from Iran probably two years

50:26

ago. This allow our wilde is now

50:28

on a mini tour. It's coming back

50:30

to America after a certain London opens

50:32

in San Francisco on Thursday and her.

50:36

We have painted that town in a

50:38

swimsuit Marketing it's everywhere. It's have another

50:40

thing a subset this further than double.

50:42

the are like a good time to

50:45

paint. To get good time to pay

50:47

good pals. The job that I feel like my

50:49

pillow. It's excellent. Appreciates. He would

50:51

like bad though that gets and then I'm

50:53

at if you're not in some Cisco I

50:55

June fifth it opens in our lay at

50:58

the Amundsen Theater downtown arm and these will

51:00

be the biggest houses the friendships of the

51:02

plate as Omaha Lava oh god I love

51:04

that are basically so much. As. Good.

51:07

So. We. Should share in the show

51:09

notes. I actually interviewed Michael are Jackson all

51:11

about that musical? He did my vulture so

51:13

intuit sent out like a point to share

51:15

his his insights on the music at that

51:18

really influenced the shower. Pretty phenomenal. He is

51:20

a bit awkward Amos man and itself sign

51:22

ups honey it's as he will let you

51:24

know about Tori Amos one assist other the

51:26

I was another month following Michael are just

51:29

sit on Instagram of i don't know if

51:31

on other types of social media see about

51:33

is whether or not the law. okay well

51:35

I like this a lot next because he's.

51:37

He's thoughtful and I think you know we

51:40

thought this time around but a provocateur and

51:42

and when as a provocateur I mean he's

51:44

he's given you some to think about. You

51:46

probably will always agree with it, but it's

51:48

thought for an idol like people who do

51:50

with well and he does that well. as

51:53

other are inside what's erectus

51:55

weeks my recommendation this week

51:57

is a poem from the

51:59

best american Poetry 2023. I

52:02

was thinking about something Ada Limon said where

52:04

she was saying, you know, for new or

52:07

newer poetry listeners, you know, you can find

52:09

anthologies so that you can see a diversity

52:11

of work from different poets, different styles. And

52:13

every year there is a collection put out.

52:16

You can find it at any bookstore, the

52:18

best American poetry. And so they bring in

52:20

a guest editor and they select, you know,

52:22

a bunch of poems from different people. The

52:25

poem I picked, and actually I'll be frank, I didn't

52:27

actually like a lot of the poems in this book,

52:33

but I love this poem. It's by

52:35

Jeffrey Young. And I just want to say at

52:37

the back of the book, they have little notes

52:39

on the background. And he said that this poem

52:41

was inspired by a conversation he had in the

52:44

1970s. I love the idea that a turn

52:46

of phrase you heard in the 1970s could

52:48

inspire a poem in 2023. Okay, it's titled

52:51

parallel bars, which you know,

52:53

the gymnastics, it's like the

52:55

parallel bars. It

52:58

gets bad and then it gets worse. And

53:00

then the bottom falls out. But then it

53:02

gets better. Even great, you think. You're

53:05

there. And then it goes sour, totally

53:08

alone. But it

53:11

comes back. New breath, friends

53:13

again. It's the best it's been in

53:15

months. Really clicking. It's heaven. And then

53:18

just when you think it's about to stay heaven,

53:21

it gets bad. And then it gets

53:23

worse. And then the bottom falls out.

53:26

Will it ever get better? And then

53:28

it does. It's even great. You blink an

53:30

eye and it goes sour, vicious,

53:33

destructive. But it comes

53:35

back again. New breath, friends again.

53:37

It's the best it's been in months.

53:40

Really clicking. It's heaven. And then just

53:42

about the time you think it's going

53:44

to stay heaven. That

53:47

poem is parallel bars by Jeffrey Young. I

53:49

love it. If you think of parallel bars

53:52

where the gymnastics gets on and you're kind of doing loops

53:54

ups and down, it's like language

53:56

is mimicking a visual, you know, a

53:59

visual. image. Pretty

54:01

fun. It says the Calais. Yeah.

54:03

I love it. Sam,

54:05

what's your recommendation? My

54:07

recommendation is a novel I'm knee-deep

54:10

in right now that I'm thoroughly

54:12

enjoying called The Town of Babylon

54:14

by Alejandro Varela and it is

54:16

just delightful. Long story

54:18

short, it's all about a child of

54:20

immigrants raised in what seemed like a

54:22

suburb of New York City. He

54:25

leaves, becomes an academic, comes

54:27

home for his 20-year high school reunion

54:30

and all of the old stuff from

54:32

his high school life comes back including

54:34

a former lover. But it

54:36

also tells a

54:38

story of immigration and how communities

54:40

change over time and who

54:43

was welcome and who was not. It's

54:45

written so beautifully and it's kind

54:47

of wonderful in this way that

54:50

the author never names the place but you feel

54:52

the place and it's like you could be there.

54:55

It's wonderfully written. I can't put it down. I

54:57

read it to fall asleep at night and I

54:59

stay up way too long reading it. I

55:02

think you'll like it, dear listeners. I plus

55:04

one, Sam's recommendation, it's a wonderful book. I got

55:06

to meet the author a year or so ago

55:08

when I was writing a piece for the New

55:11

York Times and he was interviewed in it about

55:13

Fire Island because he loves it. He lives there.

55:15

He lives in Fire Island. Alrighty,

55:17

listeners, let us know what's keeping

55:19

your vibe right, your recommendations. I'm

55:21

always looking for new record recommendations

55:23

as well. Any vinyl heads out

55:25

there in the VibeCheck fam, any

55:28

vinyl vibers, hit me up. Let

55:30

me know what you're listening to. You can

55:32

always email us at vibecheckatstitcher.com and

55:34

you can enter the group chat

55:36

on our Patreon, patreon.com/vibe

55:39

check. Come find us. I

55:42

really enjoyed

55:45

the patreon. It is so because

55:47

it's true that there are so

55:49

many books And movies and things

55:51

we want to talk about and we just

55:54

can't work everything into an episode. so it's

55:56

really fun being able to keep that conversation

55:58

going. Mint.

56:00

Vegas and last week's episode someone like I'm

56:02

Going To Vegas watches I Do It in

56:04

the Patreon baby. We can put it all

56:06

out here. Come join us. Aren't

56:14

as the service will Friends Thank

56:16

you for tuning into this week's

56:18

episode of Five Checks. If the

56:20

A lump us and you want

56:22

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design. Also special thanks to our

56:40

executive producers Nora Ritzy as teacher

56:42

and Branson Sharp from Agenda. And

56:44

as always we want to hear from you

56:46

said of forget email us at five check

56:48

exeter.com. Or Instagram have

56:51

been alive for a few weeks now

56:53

and doing great and loving all the

56:55

concepts com each other for the air

56:57

and that pages called at Five Sacks

56:59

underscore side and meet us there is

57:01

quite a fun time as patriotic as

57:03

your your T yet Instagram. Or

57:08

new. I.

57:11

I may. Smoke

57:32

a Little is the silliest cat I

57:34

now clinton. Seated importance. Of headphones

57:36

are allowed to her Missouri and better

57:38

health isn't thanks to the colors changing

57:40

their from friends that person's health monitoring

57:43

less seen him curtains. And. Litter has presented

57:45

in prisons that and limited has potential. Really nice.

57:47

It easy for me to stay on top of

57:49

her health and well do. I

57:51

may not understand all of Rachel's the required, but

57:54

I can't keep up with the important things signed

57:56

for. I said crystals have monitoring. That are to

57:58

turn your you for citizens to treatment. What about

58:00

any. Different.

58:03

Story Spy you my. Trip

58:05

to South Dakota was the best summer

58:07

ever. Now I don't need to go

58:10

to Mars because I've been to the

58:12

badlands and I caught a bigger wallet

58:14

and dad for we went to the

58:16

Missouri River Fan. I rode my bike

58:18

to these huge rocks called needles. Oh

58:21

I also saw my first heard of

58:23

spices. Even a fuzzy for a baby

58:25

was I can't wait to go back

58:27

and see more. There's. So much

58:30

South Dakota. So. Little time,