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Together. Hello

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Ladies hello hello hello I'm

0:41

same Sanders, I'm Say Jones

0:43

and I'm Sachs effort and

0:45

you're listening to Vibe Check.

0:55

Listeners welcome to another installment of Hey

0:58

Sis of I Checked series where we

1:00

are highlighting some amazing Black women for

1:02

Black History Month and Women's History Month.

1:04

And today I am so excited to

1:07

share. My first conversation ends with somebody

1:09

who is so near and dear to

1:11

me that it's the only person I

1:13

let sleep on my house and I'm

1:15

out of town. or yeah, this fun

1:18

fact a her name is Kimberley Drew

1:20

Kimberly Drew you may also know as

1:22

museum Mammy on Instagram and all social

1:24

media. She's an author. Of books like

1:26

Back Futures Bj Worth Them has been on

1:29

the show before she's Us what art critic

1:31

and she's a social media superstar. Beginning her

1:33

career at the Met by really helping blaze

1:35

trails of how the museum's do social media

1:37

but also have a reckoning about what they

1:39

collect and today of excited bring hard to

1:42

the show because fun fact say Jones and

1:44

I have a different group chat outside of

1:46

vibe Check it it is with Kimberly True

1:48

surprised him say this is. Not.

1:51

A lot now now now because I

1:53

have no further than that way where

1:56

alert and out day I'm. amanda this

1:58

episode begins with that t which

2:00

everyone will enjoy. I'm texting right

2:02

now. Added.

2:06

I will share a little something from that

2:08

group text. From that group text? With Kimberly.

2:12

The Paul Mooney poem in my book, Alive,

2:14

at the End of the World. I

2:16

actually, and I don't do this often with

2:18

friends, but Kimberly, we were up

2:20

very early one morning. This was like

2:23

summer of 2021. Zach

2:25

was dead asleep. So it's like we're

2:27

in the group text, but it's just

2:30

me and Kimberly texting back and forth

2:32

for an entire morning as she gave

2:34

me feedback and helped me revise this

2:36

poem and really took what was like

2:38

an okay interesting idea to something that

2:41

is much more challenging. And I just remember

2:43

being so excited to get to do that.

2:45

And then I was like, and Zach is gonna wake up

2:47

in a few hours to like 75. Oh

2:50

yeah, that's a lot. Story

2:52

of my life with y'all. Story of my life

2:54

with y'all. That's true. What is

2:56

y'all's little group chat named? Oh, what's it called

2:58

right now, Said? Is it still

3:00

called WandaVision? It

3:02

began as WandaVision. Now it's

3:04

LokiVision. LokiVision. LokiVision.

3:07

Okay. Okay. So

3:09

if I watch the right shows, I can get in this. If

3:12

I watch WandaVision and Loki. I may maybe, you

3:14

know. See, but I mean, to

3:16

that point, this group chat

3:18

started because of our shared love of

3:20

WandaVision on Disney Plus, which

3:22

then became about Loki and all of these things. So

3:24

it's a really fun place where we do talk a

3:26

lot about art and

3:29

talking to each other. And it's a safe space for a side

3:31

and I, but Kimberly is such a

3:33

force of a person that we had our own

3:35

group chat with her. But

3:37

the thing that I do love and what we do

3:39

talk about in our conversation, which is really

3:41

healing to me. You know, I spoke to her literally

3:44

the morning after she left my house and I came

3:46

home, because when she comes to LA, she'll stay here

3:48

a lot. And when I

3:50

arrived that morning, she told me that she

3:52

changed all the sheets in my house and

3:54

made everything really clean because she wanted me

3:56

to land softly. And that's the purpose of

3:59

our chat. is about soft living and

4:01

why we all need softness in our life.

4:03

And Kimberly is just one of these people

4:05

that has done so much with her life

4:07

and accomplished so much, but has this commitment

4:09

to softness and the politics of softness and

4:11

taking care of yourself that I thought our

4:13

listeners would love to hear more about it.

4:16

So that's our chat today, which I'm excited

4:18

to share with you. I love that. All

4:20

right. Well, with that, everyone, I want to

4:23

give you, Kimberly Drew, and give you some

4:25

insights into why she, Saeed,

4:27

and I have group chat together.

4:30

Enjoy. And why Sam is not in it.

4:34

I guess I'm not landing softly enough

4:36

for that group chat. God damn. Leave

4:39

it in, Shansa. They're gross

4:41

landing. Wow. All

4:54

right. This is the day I've been waiting for. This is

4:56

the episode where Saeed wasn't there and then Sam was singing.

4:59

And it's just actually just us. Like

5:02

in my fantasy. It's me. It's seriously

5:04

that. I'm hijacking Vibe Check for one

5:06

week. Listen, this would be a dream

5:08

of mine. I guess what I should

5:10

say first, everyone, this is Kimberly Drew,

5:12

a dear friend, a very

5:14

good friend of mine, a lover of

5:16

Vibe Check. But also fun fact

5:19

is in a different universe, Vibe

5:21

Check is actually hosted by Kimberly

5:24

Drew, Zach Zafford, and Saeed Jones, because we

5:26

have an even more ancient group chat together

5:28

than the Vibe Check. Yes.

5:31

Yes. Loki Vision. Can you tell people before we

5:33

get into all of this? Because I think people

5:35

are going to realize as we talk that we

5:37

know each other very well and our lives are

5:39

so connected in different ways. For instance, I arrived

5:41

at my home today as you left last night

5:44

because you were staying. We're like, we're

5:46

just so together in so many ways. But for

5:48

people to know, talk about our group chat with

5:50

Saeed. Yes. And you know, it's so

5:52

funny. I mean, I just have such a

5:54

deep, deep, deep love and respect for both

5:56

of your brains. And we

5:58

were separately. you and

6:00

me were in our car ride home

6:02

from seeing Ava DuVernay's fantastic origin film.

6:06

And one of the things I was saying about the consortium

6:08

of the three of you is

6:10

that you have such unique and

6:13

deep rooted senses of self. And

6:16

it plays so well as

6:18

a listener and as a person who has

6:21

really high expectations for you. And

6:23

for anything that I intake. And so

6:25

it is always a pleasure to tune in

6:28

literally every week because I never know what

6:30

I'm going to get into. I never know

6:32

who I'm going to agree with or disagree

6:34

with, which is a long way of saying

6:36

that yes, me and Saeed have this incredible

6:38

group chat that started out

6:41

called WandaVision and then became

6:43

LokiVision because we had to

6:45

pivot alongside the good sisses

6:47

at Marvel slash Disney. And

6:49

it's been a really beautiful

6:51

space to do this kind of like cultural

6:53

work. You know, it's a funny thing

6:55

about like what makes our creative class

6:58

so annoying is that we are constantly

7:00

in critical dialogue

7:02

about these things. You know, it's not just what

7:04

the listeners get. It's not just what our books

7:06

are putting out. This is our breakfast, lunch and

7:09

dinner. And one of the greatest

7:11

privileges of my life, you know, to be able

7:13

to work through these things, especially to

7:15

be able to think through these things in

7:17

relative private. And so

7:19

I want to encourage everyone to take their hot

7:21

takes to the group chat. Yeah,

7:23

if there's one thing you take away from here in

7:26

my voice. Yes, like work off

7:28

the group. Also, like I'm so glad you

7:30

said that because the reason why we created

7:32

vibe check and then the reason why we're

7:35

doing interviews and conversations with people like yourself,

7:37

who by the way, everyone should know and

7:39

remember, we only really do these conversations when

7:41

they're our friends. There are people that we

7:44

actually have a real relationship to because we

7:46

want to really show folks when you have

7:48

a space of love with someone, you can be

7:50

daring and you can try things out and work

7:52

things through with each other. And we do that

7:55

very publicly. And we're going to do it now

7:57

together, me and Kimberly, but vibe check is so

7:59

much about You know what we'll be talking about

8:01

the group chat What are the things that are really like

8:03

hitting for me that aren't making sense and where do I

8:05

have space to? Figure it out

8:07

and you know, that's what a group chat is

8:09

for everybody So to Kimberly's point find your group

8:11

chat figure it out their group fat find your

8:13

dinner party I was coalition building

8:15

for lack of better phrasing last night with a group

8:17

of friends and we were all just going through you

8:20

know the complications of the world like

8:23

working in creative field is Is

8:26

so ashy right now for lack of better phrasing

8:28

and it's like just this constant issue You don't

8:30

know what to do and there needs to be

8:32

this bomb And I think that that bomb is

8:35

found in these these moments that help us better

8:37

understand how to participate in the world at

8:40

large You know, like I think

8:42

we do ourselves a disservice when we expect

8:44

ourselves to be Saviors or to be right

8:46

all the time. Actually, we really are in

8:48

a time that requires so much humility Especially

8:51

as there are these like infrastructural changes

8:54

around conversations of diversity or or

8:56

thinking about whose voice really matters

8:58

That also means for us internally. We need to

9:01

figure out what the heck we want to say.

9:03

Yeah Yeah, I agree

9:05

so much and before we you know figure out what

9:07

the heck we're gonna say today Conversation

9:09

I have to do my check in with you

9:11

because my check always begins with a vibe check

9:14

So Kimberly drew what your vibe I

9:16

know you've been waiting for that question forever Yes,

9:19

yes, I went

9:21

line dancing I wore cowboy boots every

9:24

day last week like I was out

9:26

dancing when I was in LA last

9:28

week and One of my

9:30

friends grabbed me to join in

9:33

on like a group dance and

9:35

I panicked But

9:38

then continue to like join in and feel

9:40

the swing of it and get twisted around

9:43

and like, you know It

9:45

was infectious and so my vibe this

9:47

week is a little bit of bravery and a

9:49

little bit of click-clack and Revelry

9:52

in this dance three like going through TSA the girls

9:54

were living for my cowboy really The

9:57

red and white ones some red gone II

10:00

cowboy boots. We were walking

10:02

out of origins and someone literally like ran out

10:04

the door to tell Kimberly, I love your boots.

10:06

I love them so much. They

10:08

have butterflies on the back. They're wonderful. And also

10:10

can we talk about line dancing? I grew up

10:12

in Tennessee so I'm very familiar with the culture.

10:15

It is the best way to dance together.

10:17

It gives you, everyone has the same purpose.

10:19

It's kind of like you have rules which

10:21

is what I love the most and it's

10:23

just fun to kind of do drag I

10:25

think right? Yeah but it was funny okay

10:27

quickly I didn't know that it

10:30

was going to be like hoedown

10:32

music. Like I think I went

10:34

in thinking that I was getting like Chicago

10:37

line stepping or something or

10:39

like Philly social dancing and

10:42

then it was like the best of

10:44

country music until they

10:46

played choice of on. They played Rush.

10:49

That's my girl. No they did one

10:52

of your girls. Oh yeah what if

10:54

your girl? Yeah and it was it was sexy

10:56

and there was like one Janet number and

10:58

I was like okay I

11:01

feel safe. I was like I can't do a dance

11:03

I don't know and then also music I don't know

11:05

and everybody you know girls get excited like people know

11:07

the dances it's the same thing that happens like in

11:10

a bashments like you know the dancehall songs and like

11:12

how to move your body. Anyway Zach what's your vibe?

11:15

Oh no one has asked us back what

11:17

our vibes are in this moment and that

11:19

is amazing. Thank you for that. Thank you

11:21

and this actually represents why I love Kimberly

11:24

Drew. My vibe is I'm

11:26

feeling exhausted you know I've just been

11:28

traveling you're the only person I know

11:30

in my life that travels maybe

11:33

more than me and the thing about our

11:35

travel as you know is we try to

11:37

keep our life at home going too. We

11:39

don't take off work we're trying to do

11:41

the zoom we're trying to take the calls

11:44

we're meeting with people wherever we're

11:46

at and also planning for the things in

11:48

the future and it's just really exhausting and

11:50

I had a moment we were recording a

11:52

show this week right as we're beginning to

11:54

record I open up my travel mic and

11:56

I'm at a hotel and

11:59

you know our amazing producing team has like

12:01

made sure I'm prepared and sent me everything and

12:03

I don't have the right cord and we're about

12:05

to start taping the show in minutes and I'm

12:07

like running through the hotel and I'm begging the

12:09

front desk people who are wonderful at this hotel

12:12

and they were trying to help figure it out do

12:15

all this stuff and it was just so much chaos

12:17

and then when I told fight and Sam about all

12:19

this drama it's like goes girl we're not doing brain

12:21

surgery it's fine if you need to not be here

12:23

today you don't need to be here today but I

12:25

was there and we worked through it and I think

12:28

you know why I'm telling that story and this actually

12:30

leads to our conversation today is you

12:32

know I'm a hustler you're a

12:34

hustler we have been working so hard

12:37

in our lives for so long it's

12:39

due to our gender our sexuality our race

12:42

all these things it also is about our

12:44

ambition and that we want bigness out of

12:46

our life but that wears on

12:48

you and there's moments in which like your body

12:50

just shuts down it needs

12:52

some rest and as I was

12:54

on my way home after doing the show

12:57

from a hotel then driving home you were staying at

12:59

my house and you said something to me that really

13:01

touched me and it's going to be the theme of

13:03

the show today you said that you

13:05

had done the laundry and

13:07

that the bed sheets were done and prepped

13:10

for me and Craig to come home because

13:12

you wanted us to land softly and

13:14

that is the conversation today is about how

13:16

to land softly what a softness means so

13:19

Kimberly to get us going when you sent that

13:21

to me what did you mean what is soft

13:23

landing mean to you and why is it important

13:25

to have softness in our lives right now yeah

13:28

well before that I do want to

13:30

say that it is really important to

13:36

have these kinds of dialogues with your friends I think that

13:38

that's the first soft landing because in the

13:40

vastness of the world right not having

13:42

the cord one might not register as

13:44

an urgency and

13:46

that urgency might not register against

13:48

the landscape that you're dealing with

13:51

to be able to even understand what

13:53

the stakes are to understand the stakes

13:55

that we feel intergenerationally the angling towards

13:58

perfection that I think exists in so many of

14:00

us and feeling the tangibility of success and then

14:02

knowing that that cord can be the make or

14:04

break, even if it's not. But there's

14:06

so many metaphorical placements for what you're going

14:08

through and it's really such an honor to

14:10

be able to have friends who intimately

14:13

know whatever their missing cord is. And

14:16

I think for me, one of my missing cords is when

14:18

someone stays in my house. Because

14:22

I joke that I run like a youth hospital.

14:26

But I'm like, y'all, please make

14:28

the bed. Please don't

14:30

leave a dish. If the yoga mat

14:32

is out, leave the yoga mat out. These

14:35

things are laid with some intention. And

14:38

even the exact partner was like, I

14:41

can change the orientation of the bed because I know

14:43

you like to watch TV and bed. There's

14:46

so much that goes into these decisions

14:48

and how to make home safe, whether

14:50

you're in it or lending it to someone

14:52

else. And so I wanted to make sure

14:54

that I was taking that baton on and being able to

14:56

pass it back as I was leaving your space. I've

14:59

been just starting a book called

15:01

Birthing Liberation, How Reproductive Justice Can

15:04

Set Us Free by Sabia

15:06

Wade, the Black Dula. And

15:09

in the beginning of the book's introduction,

15:11

Sabia speaks really eloquently

15:13

about grief and

15:16

liberation and how just to

15:18

lend to this conversation of softness, to

15:20

be on this journey of softness is to understand that there

15:22

is hardness, to be on this

15:24

conversation around freedom is to grieve the fact

15:27

that we're getting free from something. And

15:29

so when I'm thinking about softness or

15:31

self-care or these kinds of things, they

15:34

are particularly rigorous acts and

15:37

there's a lot of labor that

15:39

goes into the eloquence of it. Yeah.

15:43

It's become a viral trend too. This eloquence

15:45

has, I feel through its virality, become less

15:47

eloquent. And that's where I think this tension

15:49

is and where I would love to, through

15:52

the time that we have with each other,

15:54

really give people some material ways

15:56

to live a soft life and

15:58

the productivity within that. And

16:00

what I'm talking about is, you know, you go

16:02

to TikTok, I think last I checked, there's over

16:04

like 700 million or billion views of the hashtag

16:06

softlife. You know, we don't know

16:09

exactly where the hashtag came from. Some

16:11

reports say it comes from Nigerian influencers

16:13

who really came to dominance on TikTok

16:15

and were kind of teaching us about

16:17

a softlife in Nigeria. Other

16:19

people just think it's a form of self-care that

16:21

white women have commodified in the US and stolen

16:23

from black people. But each

16:25

image of softlife that we see on the internet is

16:27

very much tied with like luxury too and about, you

16:30

know, boats and living in a nice place and

16:32

all of these things. So I guess Kimberly, when

16:34

do you think of softlife and how it's been

16:36

portrayed on the internet? What comes to

16:38

mind and what are the complications within that

16:40

representation of softlife that you see? Yeah,

16:43

I mean, I think one of the other

16:45

things that's important in our dynamic specifically is

16:47

our commitment to Dalulu energy. Yes. And

16:50

existing on our own little plane and

16:52

letting our Pisces placements run free. But

16:55

it makes me think of my relationship to the term quiet

16:57

luxury, where I was just like,

16:59

oh yeah, it's like the things that like, you know what

17:01

it is because you really like that cashmere sweater and like

17:03

the people who know the cashmere sweater know the cashmere sweater,

17:05

not like this vilific, like

17:08

an indictment, a necessary indictment of a

17:11

particular class of people. I didn't know those

17:13

two things. And so I say that to say my definition

17:15

of softlife, from what I understand it, yeah,

17:17

is like, I don't want to start my

17:20

beef with the rest movement. Start the beef. Oh,

17:23

because the rest movement, like I

17:25

struggle a lot with it

17:28

because I think that there's a way to

17:30

have softness that is not encouraging everyone to

17:32

nap or encouraging everyone to

17:34

bathe like you should be bathing. But

17:38

for me, when I think about the softlife, I

17:40

think about dance, I feel like the rhythm of

17:42

it where it is building out

17:44

the choreography of your life such that you

17:46

can float through it. It

17:48

is the rigorous work of setting boundaries. It

17:51

is the rigorous work of committing

17:54

to your craft. That's

17:56

what I think of when I think of softlife. I

17:58

don't think of people who are living. living

18:00

at a certain socioeconomic level and

18:02

therefore makes such things accessible. For

18:05

me, when I think about soft life, it is

18:07

really about having a really hard audit

18:09

of how you're doing things and orienting

18:12

them towards conditions that allow you

18:14

to float through them as best as you can.

18:17

Why is it important to float through things?

18:19

Because I think hustle culture is so dominant

18:22

still to this day. I would say especially

18:24

for millennials, Gen Z, I'm not one, so

18:26

I can't speak for them, but

18:29

my millennial class, we beat ourselves up

18:31

for not owning homes yet, not

18:33

hitting certain life points that our parents did. So

18:35

we think, oh, I've got to work harder. I've

18:37

got to start a side hustle. I've got to

18:39

start a business. And then we

18:42

just stress ourselves out and run ourselves into burnout.

18:44

And burnout is a real thing. It's a

18:46

real medical thing. People can lose any

18:48

energy or ability to care about what

18:50

they used to care about because of

18:53

over exertion. So I guess

18:55

my question is, why is

18:57

it important to learn how to move through life

18:59

with some softness and float through it? And what

19:01

does that look like? Yeah, I don't think

19:03

that we have to live in a world

19:05

in which we always delay pleasure. I

19:08

think that that's it. From a very

19:10

young age, I've always been really

19:12

about really seeing the harvest of

19:15

my seeds. I don't

19:17

understand, I have to wait until this set of

19:19

point in my life when I can actually enjoy

19:21

it. I'm like, I want to work and

19:23

enjoy. I want to work and enjoy. I want to have the best

19:25

meals now. I don't feel

19:27

like I have to fight or whatever that is

19:29

within my own reach. Playing

19:32

the long game, I don't understand. And

19:34

less and less, because we are in

19:36

this moment of such excruciating violence, there

19:39

isn't really an incentive to delaying

19:41

the pleasure, of course, within

19:43

lens of equitable thinking and trying

19:45

to make sure that your pursuit of the

19:48

softness for yourself doesn't discount the lived experience

19:50

of others, which is important. I'm like, I'm such

19:52

a black woman having to say it like that. You know what I mean?

19:55

Yeah, I think that there is a shift that

19:57

I would like to see more. I

19:59

love a softness. Oi have the schools were like.

20:02

This is the easy thing to accomplish and I'm gonna

20:04

get myself a little tree that the sure. I

20:06

love that song Goals of An Effect of

20:08

Back With Me So when did you learn

20:10

how to take care of yourself with this

20:12

way? Because when I first met you. Forget

20:15

how we met exactly but I remember the

20:17

first time I knew who you are was

20:19

do your work on social media through museum

20:21

and mean you're incredible work advocating for a

20:23

black people in the art world. Them each

20:26

a black artists were being treated act of

20:28

bleach. There's such a huge fan and and

20:30

I met you and you were even better

20:32

in person than I experienced by I knew

20:34

at that time this was years ago. You

20:36

a lot going on. You're working on a

20:38

buck. Black futures Another bucks this is. But

20:41

I know about arts. You had many jobs,

20:43

You were just a reflection of myself. But

20:45

within that reflects and I saw oh, you must be

20:47

stressed out X must be tough. Was it tough back

20:49

then And when did you learn how to take better

20:52

care of yourself? At took one

20:54

little mental breakdown. And that

20:56

is a giant with lime. Well, a

20:58

mental breakdown to do like the first.

21:00

Round of like maybe I should change things

21:02

and then a second one. To

21:04

really sit me down? I mean, you

21:06

witnessed me through this reckoning that I

21:08

lost. So many friends and was

21:10

in this moment where I just

21:13

hadn't had nothing to give and

21:15

I felt very much like. All.

21:17

The things I had worked for were being taken

21:19

away from me and I think that that's especially

21:22

where my desire. And. My I guess

21:24

more security and being like I'm gonna see my

21:26

flowers I'm gonna see my own flowers now because.

21:29

It's like you end up in

21:31

these systems. That. Would

21:33

rather you beat dead. To

21:35

be taking these systems and which

21:37

you are seen. As a visitor,

21:40

no matter how long you have been

21:42

present. I've been working in my industry

21:44

for a decade and still have these.

21:46

Constant reminders of how I am. A Visitor

21:48

and service. And.

21:50

I think the only autonomy that I do have

21:52

is the hours in my day and how I

21:55

spend them. And how I'm able

21:57

to reorient them. And how am able

21:59

to better as. For myself, what

22:01

success actually looks like. Because.

22:04

I feel like often times. There.

22:06

Are ways in which people's imaginations

22:09

of us are so limited. A.

22:12

You know you know the numbers are people, are

22:14

like, your goal is this and as like you

22:16

have no idea the vastness. Of what

22:18

I I see for myself and that

22:20

that might be something soft which is

22:22

something I often say to you is

22:25

that Zoc you hold such incredible soft

22:27

power amongst so many of our brilliant

22:29

peers who are like drive it home.

22:31

With such force and. You're

22:33

just like I'm working my butt

22:35

off and throwing myself around the

22:38

planet for these meetings. Advocating for

22:40

ideas, advocating for people, But.

22:42

Doing it with. Such. Grace

22:44

and thoughtfulness in I Like.

22:46

I've never and are dynamic, ever, ever ever

22:49

felt like I had at it myself. Ever.

22:52

How. I love doing that, which is like

22:54

rare. You know that? Does. Snow

22:56

and I'd love to actually go deeper

22:59

into that because I was in Utah

23:01

and when of crags friends are deprived

23:03

is an ex mormon feminist writer and

23:05

she's really wonderful and I think he

23:07

was quoting her and she said you

23:10

know Symon in it he is not

23:12

about kind of the stereotypes a thing

23:14

of it worth about like you know

23:16

a hyper sexuality submission all these things

23:19

she said it's about attraction it saying

23:21

some in in it about. Like.

23:23

A softness that allows you to pull people

23:25

would and attract people. And I guess that

23:27

leaves me to the question of like soft

23:29

power Of what does that mean When you

23:31

say that we say i have of power,

23:33

you have soft power. What's what does that

23:35

look like and why is that actually may

23:37

be better than this hyper masculine power we

23:39

see play out of work environments where people

23:41

feel if they have to dominate they have

23:44

to control. They have to exert harm onto

23:46

others to when. I. Think it

23:48

starts first as a commitment to what

23:50

you're doing. Being. committed

23:52

also means listening being committed also means

23:54

understanding that sicilian in the case of

23:56

the intersection of both of our works

23:58

are entering into law Long-standing institutions and

24:01

I think we both intimately understand that

24:03

they have existed for a reason as

24:05

they do and so starting in with

24:07

questions As opposed to a very okay. This is

24:10

my shade for Gen Z It's

24:13

not about like radical immediate change,

24:16

but really thinking about how to Sit

24:19

within something and think through Collaboratively

24:21

how to make lasting change that for me.

24:24

I think is a soft power

24:26

power move Where

24:28

you are there in collaboration? But

24:31

you still have your goal you're maintaining your morals But you're

24:33

not coming in and like setting the thing on fire

24:36

Because I think that that's also how you build trust which

24:38

I also see in the realm of soft power, too And

24:41

then also I think in your case It's

24:44

just the diversity of things

24:46

where some people make the

24:48

choice to be really concentrated in one direction

24:51

one vector one trajectory of their career

24:53

and and Both of

24:55

us are just very thirsty for capital

24:57

C culture Mm-hmm and being

24:59

within that kind of multiplicity

25:03

It softens you because you're tenderized because

25:05

you're not building yourself as like express

25:07

expert in one thing Yeah,

25:09

and it does take a lot of beating like for

25:12

me It's like I'm between art and fashion two of

25:14

the most exclusive industries period Yeah They

25:16

have tenderized me and I and I find that

25:18

my life my quality of life is better when

25:20

I approach them both with a

25:22

softness Listeners

25:24

we're gonna take a quick break right here, but don't

25:27

go anywhere. We'll be right back Listeners

25:32

I hope you're enjoying the conversation We're just

25:34

taking a quick break to thank Ulta Beauty

25:36

for presenting this episode of hey sis in

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an industry where beauty is often defined

25:41

By standards Ulta Beauty is on a

25:43

mission to change that by encouraging individuality

25:46

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25:58

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your favorite black-owned and founded brands. All

26:26

right, we are back, and we are jumping right

26:28

back into this conversation with Kimberly Drew. There was

26:30

a recent article in

26:32

essence.com, I think, and the title is, Here's

26:35

Why Black Women Are Rejecting the Strong

26:37

Woman Trope and Living a Soft Life. And

26:40

you just mentioned that you operate two

26:43

very hard, rough industries, fashion

26:46

and art, and fashion is just, I

26:49

don't know, I don't know what to say. I don't

26:51

know what to say. I don't know what to say. Fashion and

26:53

art, and fashion is just, I love going

26:55

to fashion shows with you because you are my softness

26:57

and my protection there, because it is not a soft

26:59

place to be. But I know

27:01

for you as a black woman, as a queer

27:03

person, coming in with softness is not what people

27:06

are used to. Talk about

27:08

that experience, and how you've softened

27:10

yourself within an industry that wanted

27:12

to harden you, and

27:14

still found the successes that you wanted through all

27:17

this. I

27:19

just wanna stay in it. I think it

27:21

reverts back to what I was saying before. It's like,

27:23

I love what I do. And I

27:25

think it's weird when you do the thing that is

27:28

a part of life, you know what I'm saying? I'm

27:30

not selling Salesforce, you know what I mean? I

27:32

work in the industry of aesthetics and

27:35

in culture. I'm not gonna turn my

27:37

back on culture. So I have to

27:39

find a hospitable place to exist within

27:42

it. And I think one

27:44

of my dear friends, Marcellus Armstrong, who is

27:46

a super talented artist, the day that

27:48

we met, we were interns at the incredible

27:50

Studio Museum in Harlem. And he was

27:53

like, we're gonna do this forever, and we're gonna

27:55

be friends forever. And that's

27:57

just been my guiding principle, where it's like, to the

27:59

best of my. I want to maintain

28:01

these relationships and have as

28:03

real of relationships as possible like me and you

28:05

Zach Ran a lot about the

28:07

fake ones, you know Where it's like you actually

28:09

don't care how I'm doing and and if you

28:11

don't care how I'm doing I prefer you not ask me

28:14

like if you see me say what's up But like

28:17

we don't have to engage deeper than that. We

28:19

don't have to pretend it's more than it is But

28:22

I think you know if people actively avoid me because

28:24

I want to look I'm gonna be at the club I'm

28:26

ask you how you doing? Like you

28:28

know like if you want to talk about you know What's

28:30

going on in here here and there like I

28:32

would I'm so much more concerned with those things and I

28:34

think that's my particular Soft

28:36

superpower is like I really

28:38

do want to have great conversation I

28:41

really would rather that then you

28:43

feel like you have to edit or have to shrink Because

28:46

it is the robustness of who you are as

28:48

to why you're in this room in the first

28:50

place, baby. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, whoo

28:52

This is like church for me and everything

28:55

for saying is actually giving me language to

28:58

Understand what I just went through so to

29:00

share You know and I

29:02

said this on the show in one of the

29:04

episodes before this experience at Sundance this past year

29:06

was very Complicated because a lot of incredible inclusion

29:08

in films a lot of our friends were in

29:10

movies They're you know queer people trans folks of

29:12

color all getting their their shine and I loved

29:15

it I love being there for them however the

29:17

audiences did not look like them at all and

29:19

people when you walk through them as You

29:21

know queer body people as black people they were not nice

29:24

to us at all and it was very confusing to me

29:26

and The real point

29:28

I want to make is as I was going through all

29:30

this I felt my soft power activate and I kept

29:32

thinking oh I don't want to go to that party

29:34

because I don't want to have to be fake the

29:36

people who aren't gonna be nice to Me. Oh, I

29:38

don't want to go to that dinner I don't want

29:40

to have to have shallow conversations because I want deepness

29:42

there and so I'm

29:44

sharing all this and as you're saying this and I'm realizing

29:46

that like softness is Not only kind

29:48

of like a mode of being in these spaces

29:51

But it's also a way just to keep through

29:53

yourself alive because a lot of these things do

29:56

destroy you Do you relate to that feeling? Yeah,

29:58

and the only thing I'll add Because

30:00

I think this is also true is that we

30:02

work our butts off like I work my butt

30:04

off So that I don't have to go to the

30:06

vein things that don't feel good. Yeah I'm

30:09

like I will write the heck out of

30:11

this essay I will you

30:13

know like take 5 a.m. Calls from your couch or just

30:16

in the background of the zoom Because

30:18

it's like if I can't speak for myself

30:20

as a person who is a deeply sensitive

30:22

person I have to let my work speak

30:24

for me and I know that

30:26

that's like can sometimes be the trade-off But I

30:29

was listening to you talk through that story

30:31

of like what it means to have this

30:33

engagement with culture And then

30:35

see that that's not what people actually mean

30:37

I mean we're in this moment now where

30:39

people want to talk retroactively about genocide But

30:42

we're in the middle of one like it's

30:44

just you know we have to ground ourselves

30:47

We really do have to ground ourselves and

30:49

not treat everything Like this

30:51

third space and understand that these things actually

30:53

do impact us and affect us like how

30:55

are you is it real? Genuine question was

30:57

coming out of my mouth, and if you

30:59

say fine, and you mean fine. That's fine

31:02

But don't say fine and not mean fine Why

31:09

You're very much like me what you say say what you

31:11

mean type of tea Yeah, just

31:13

like say it with your chest which holds

31:15

your heart like that's okay Yeah, that's okay,

31:17

and I might not be that avenue for

31:19

it, and that's okay, too But

31:21

I sure as hell Hope anybody

31:24

who's listening is able to access

31:26

their avenue for it and to

31:28

understand that those friendships are equally

31:30

powerful You know I

31:32

think one of the biggest heartbreaks that I have

31:35

is when you think that someone's your friend And

31:37

then you realize that it's like this weird like power

31:39

play, and you're like no We're just homies like

31:42

I don't actually want anything from you.

31:44

Yeah. I really don't I really don't Yeah,

31:48

I think what you're saying just now reminds me of

31:50

a definition I've held for friendship for many many many

31:52

years is that to be my friend or for me

31:54

to be friends with someone is to Love and support

31:57

them through anything that they do in the day. I

31:59

can't do that is the day that

32:01

we have to have a conversation that I'm not being

32:03

a good friend. And I think that softness is saying

32:06

be however, arrive however, say what you

32:08

need and I'm always going to show up

32:10

the same way with you in the day

32:12

that we don't. We're not friends

32:15

and that's okay and that's a part of life

32:17

but we have to have an understanding that friendship

32:19

has to be a place where you

32:21

can let it all go. And I feel like a lot of

32:23

us out here have friendships that aren't that way. Yeah,

32:25

especially your kind. I'll be like, y'all,

32:27

I was so worried about the gay

32:29

men in my life. I was like,

32:31

what's happening on that side? There is

32:34

a mess, a war. A

32:36

war inside. And I think it's also

32:38

grace. I think more than even

32:40

soft life, it's like a graceful life. It's

32:43

like just provide grace

32:46

if you can. What a

32:48

tremendous resource that you cannot buy is

32:50

grace. Amen. So

32:53

far, I think we've been doing a

32:55

good job of talking about softness, how it applies, how

32:58

you can carry it, how you move through it. And

33:01

I hope people are picking up and getting inspired in ways in

33:03

which they can activate it in their own life. But

33:05

this brings me to something that you posted on

33:08

Instagram that I want to read. You

33:10

wrote on January 1st of this year, 2023

33:12

was the year I learned how to respect

33:14

myself. 2023 was the year

33:17

I listened to myself for some of the first times

33:19

in my life. I took to-do

33:21

lists personally. I let myself set goals. I

33:23

let myself discipline myself, not in the sense

33:25

of self-legilation, but in the sense of a

33:28

sharpening. At 33, I

33:30

have needed these years to learn to

33:32

trust, trust that my desires are enough,

33:34

trust that external validation will never slap

33:37

as hard as being truly satisfied with

33:39

the sharpness of your own oyster knife.

33:42

And it's this word sharpening that I

33:44

loved and Nora, who produces the show, also loved,

33:47

and she's the one that flagged this to me.

33:50

And I want to hear what you mean

33:52

by that and how that lives within a

33:54

soft life. Because even though the words we're

33:56

using there, softness, sharpness, are a contradiction. But

33:58

I see very clearly. your friend how this

34:00

exists, but tell us in your own words. Yeah,

34:03

I appreciate that. I mean, it's also just

34:05

like, because language is fun, right? Like I

34:07

have an oddly like poet brain, even though

34:10

I don't do that, which is why I

34:12

love vibe checks. Oh my God. I love

34:14

you guys so much. I love you. Oh,

34:17

it makes me sick. The way

34:19

that I like in my house, like talking back to the

34:21

podcast, it makes no sense. But yes,

34:23

I think it is about these kind of

34:26

guardrails. It's almost like existing, not like in

34:28

a bubble in a fully

34:30

delusional way. But understanding

34:32

like, there's only so much

34:34

that we can control and hold. And that

34:37

within that, we can say you did a

34:39

good job, bitch. Like, you can say that

34:42

to yourself. Like, we're in this moment

34:44

Oscar moment, award season moment, blah,

34:46

blah, like you have to know that

34:48

your performance was good. Like, that's, I think one

34:50

of the most like difficult things of watching

34:52

America for error talk to Kevin Costner's at the

34:54

Golden Globes was like this weird

34:57

wanting of confirmation from him. I think it

34:59

was Kevin Costner. It was like this weird

35:01

wanting of confirmation from him about the

35:03

monologue. And she's like, are you going to say my

35:06

monologue back to me? It's like, girl, you knew the

35:08

monologue was the best to your ability. And if you

35:10

don't know that, that's such a better use of your

35:12

energy than whatever's happening right now. Like we cannot

35:14

wait for these external confirmations. We cannot, you know,

35:17

be the gold you want to hold to quote

35:19

the launch. And so that's I think what it

35:21

is for me because within this

35:23

context of the internet, within this kind of

35:25

cultural moment, it is so

35:27

awful. The way that compare and despair runs

35:30

rampant in

35:32

our own homes. Like

35:34

the way that we punish ourselves

35:37

should be studied. And I don't know if generations ahead

35:39

of us did this. I don't know what it looks

35:41

like for Gen Z or Gen Alpha or whatever the

35:43

newest ones are. But you have to build in these

35:45

safeguards. You have to be able to look at yourself

35:48

and say you did the best you could with what

35:50

you had. And you have to know that if

35:52

you don't know that, then that's your work. You

35:55

bringing up America for error also in with everything

35:57

else you just said, makes me think of me.

36:00

did you see the clip of her where she thinks herself. Wait, with

36:02

her and her wife? No, no,

36:05

that's the other part of this. No, Nisi.

36:09

I was like, I saw the skinny dip video. I

36:12

saw her in her, with her better

36:14

half in a jacuzzi. I mean, we do love this.

36:16

Kimberly and I send a lot of Nisi Nash content

36:18

to each other. But what I'm talking about is when

36:20

she won her Emmy and she said, I wanna

36:22

thank myself. Cause I did this, I put in

36:24

the work there. Is that kind of what sharpness is

36:27

to you? Is that moment of being like, no, I

36:29

did it. I'm not gonna act

36:31

coy about this. And that's the only business

36:33

I wanna stand on. Like

36:35

my business is the only business I

36:37

truly feel like I can stand on. You know

36:39

what I'm saying? Like, I

36:41

love that. I love that. You have to be

36:43

able to do that. You have to, and I think that

36:46

is soft power. That is feminine power. And that's

36:48

what I think I want people to walk away

36:50

from this conversation on softness is that to

36:52

soften yourself is not to let go of yourself

36:54

or to make yourself submissive or to forget yourself.

36:56

It's to say, I'm like, to

36:59

Beyonce, I'm comfortable in my skin. Like I'm

37:01

here, all parts of me, all vulnerable parts

37:03

of me are good. Every part of me

37:05

is great. And from that place, I can

37:07

sharpen myself. I can direct myself and all

37:09

these things exist at once. And it doesn't

37:11

have to be this really hard life. We

37:14

should aim for softness at the

37:16

end of the day. Especially to like two people who

37:18

are interested in cultural production or people who are coming to

37:20

this because they're in the art world, they wanna get in

37:22

the art world, whatever. Like you have

37:24

to find the ways in which you derive pleasure in

37:26

this journey to what it is that you are hoping

37:29

to accomplish. Because if you are

37:31

stepping so far outside of yourself to get in it,

37:33

do you want to be there in the first place?

37:36

Like there is just not enough reward

37:38

on the other side. You have to find your

37:41

why and your how, and

37:43

you have to keep those things sustainable. It's

37:45

a non-negotiable. There's no cheat code

37:47

on that. Because you will

37:49

get to the top of your industry or what someone

37:51

else has told you at the top of your

37:53

industry and be fucking miserable and not be able

37:55

to look at yourself in the mirror. Miserable, miserable.

37:58

And people will eat you a lot. because

38:00

you can smell like a shark in the water

38:02

that misery. And people will drag

38:04

you and walk you like a dog. Yeah,

38:07

that is the truth. I was speaking with

38:09

a dear friend, Jeddah Jai Jenkins. He's a

38:11

really wonderful writer, memoirs. And he said to

38:13

me, I had to let go

38:15

of the check boxes of my life many years

38:17

ago. And we were sitting in

38:19

a park catching up. And he'd

38:22

mentioned, you know, as a writer, his dream was to

38:24

be in the New York Times bestseller list. He got

38:26

there. And I know many people like this. They get

38:28

there or they get that award. And they stand up

38:30

there and it feels so hollow because they've built their

38:33

whole life towards this one goal. And when they arrive,

38:35

they're in their body and their body just holds

38:37

nothing. And it's just so

38:39

external and it's awful. It's awful. And

38:42

I feel like you are a person when you say

38:44

these things to me. I'm like, yeah, that's right. You

38:46

have done some amazing things. You've seen the most amazing

38:48

things. You've been to all the shows. You've worn all

38:50

the clothes. But you still have such a great sense

38:52

of like yourself and making sure that Kimberly is good

38:54

and Kimberly is filling herself up. Yeah, I just haven't

38:57

been a silly, goofy time. Yes. Which

38:59

is our other big boss. It's like, I'm going to a silly,

39:02

goofy time. Like I remember I went to Salone,

39:04

which is this incredible design festival in Milan. I

39:06

cried every day because you have

39:09

to leave yourself open to the magic. Like

39:11

you have to know you have to know

39:13

that your true power is when you are

39:15

able to take a moment and truly look

39:17

up and feel something like you

39:19

can take on your own time the time to

39:21

feel and not be at the

39:23

beck and call. Like I could have run my little

39:25

ass around Milan, but instead, I looked at a little

39:28

chair and I cried a little bit. And

39:31

that was beautiful. And that's my prerogative,

39:33

you know. Oh,

39:36

I love this. Well, before I let you

39:38

go, because you are such an expert in

39:40

arts and fashion in the world and thinking

39:42

of beauty, I want to ask you about

39:45

beauty itself and like, how do you find

39:47

beauty in things and what does beauty look

39:49

like to you? Because I think

39:51

people have this obsession with it being, you know, in

39:54

a certain box, a certain way. But what's your advice

39:56

for people to find the beauty in their own lives?

39:59

I think beauty. is one of the most

40:01

vulnerable concepts in our

40:03

lives. I think about the

40:06

violence that people who are traditionally

40:08

beautiful might feel, you know,

40:10

like you feel hunted for. You

40:12

feel like your beauty is something that I mean, Zach,

40:15

we talked about this all the time in your

40:17

beauty. I'm like, how are you doing, baby?

40:19

Because I have watched people hit on you

40:21

in ways that are like to jail, to

40:23

jail, to jail. And I don't even feel it. I'm

40:27

like, baby, when we did South By, I was like, Zach,

40:29

are you good? Anyway, but

40:32

to be succinct, beauty is a

40:34

very precious thing and should be

40:37

coveted. And your definition of beauty

40:39

is something that I think will take

40:41

a lifetime to define. But I think for me,

40:43

I'm a person who tries to stay open to

40:46

abundant definitions of things like beauty

40:49

without trying to kill it because like I said, it is

40:51

a hunted and often

40:53

vilified commodity. Yeah, because

40:55

it's soft and it's feminine. It's soft,

40:57

it's supple. But yet, yeah,

41:00

but yet we're all trying to grasp it or

41:02

hold it. So it's just, it's complicated.

41:05

Well, Kimberly, I love this. You have to come back.

41:07

This is like just been the joy of my life

41:09

having you here. And I'm just so excited that I

41:11

have you in my life in so many ways and

41:13

that you can be in this space too. So thank

41:16

you for that. Thank you. And

41:18

then thanks to the listeners for continuing to

41:20

be Vibers. I don't know if we're called Vibers. I

41:22

don't know. We haven't given that a name.

41:26

But yeah, I think what you guys do is such a

41:29

beautiful, speaking of beautiful thing, in

41:31

a soft part of my morning. And so Mad

41:33

Probs, Mad Respect and so much love.

41:36

I love you. Thank you. Listeners,

41:43

thank you for tuning into this week's episode of

41:46

Vibe Check. If you love the show and want

41:48

to support us, please make sure to follow the

41:50

show on your favorite podcast listening platform, subscribe on

41:52

Apple Podcasts and leave a review and most importantly,

41:54

tell a friend. Huge thank you

41:56

to our producer, Chantel Holder, and Marcus Homme for

41:59

our theme music. design. Awesome!

42:01

Special thanks to our executive producers, Ritchie

42:04

at Stitcher and Brandon Sharp from Agenda

42:06

Management and Production. As

42:08

always we want to hear from you so

42:10

don't forget you can email us at www.5checkatstitcher.com

42:12

and keep in touch with us on Instagram

42:14

at at Sam Sanders, at Zaxdaft

42:17

and at the Ferocity. Always

42:19

use the hashtag hashtag 5checkpod.

42:22

And with that, thank you for our

42:24

regular episode this Wednesday. Goodbye! We

42:43

want to take a moment to give a big

42:45

shout out to our amazing sponsor of Hey Sis!

42:48

a Vibe Check series, Ulta Beauty. Thank you Ulta

42:50

Beauty. Ulta Beauty is celebrating

42:52

black owned and founded brands this month

42:54

and every month. We are so excited

42:56

to be partnering with them to bring

42:58

you inspiring conversations with some of the

43:01

most brilliant people we know and they

43:03

just happen to be brilliant black women.

43:05

Check out the feed for more episodes

43:07

throughout February and March. Head

43:09

to your local Ulta Beauty store or

43:12

visit ulta.com to shop your favorite black

43:14

owned and founded brands. Again big love

43:16

to Ulta Beauty for joining us on

43:18

this journey celebrating black women and black

43:21

voices.