0:00

Hey, listeners, before we dive in today, we

0:02

are so excited to share that this episode

0:04

is part of a special series called Hey

0:06

Sis, and it's brought to you

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by Ulta Beauty. Ulta

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Beauty is celebrating Black-owned and founded

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Head to your local Ulta

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Beauty store or visit ulta.com

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to shop your favorite Black-owned and

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founded brands. From skin and

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got it all. Let's celebrate beauty,

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creativity, joy, and

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Black excellence together. Hey

0:43

ladies, hey ladies, hey ladies.

0:45

Hi. Hello. Hi, hi. I'm

0:48

Sam Sanders. I'm Saeed Jones. And

0:50

I'm Zach Safford, and you're listening to Vibe

0:52

Check. Welcome,

1:00

welcome, welcome to yet another installment of

1:02

our Hey Sis, a Vibe Check series,

1:04

where we are highlighting some amazing Black

1:07

women for Black History Month and Women's

1:09

History Month. And today I'm

1:11

having a conversation with a very

1:13

old friend of mine, maybe out of all

1:15

my interviews, the person I've known the longest.

1:18

Her name is Raquel Willis. She's a writer,

1:20

editor, and a transgender rights activist, and just

1:22

all around one of the most beautiful people

1:24

I know and have gotten to know

1:26

for a long, long time. So I'm so excited

1:29

to share this with you all today because I

1:31

like that we keep having friends on and that

1:33

they're friends that we respect their work. And it's

1:35

just nice to be like, okay, here's what they

1:37

did, and then here's the friendship underneath, and here's

1:39

the emotional relationship underneath. And me and Raquel have

1:41

that in the most, I think the most interesting

1:43

way. Well, and for me, selfishly, this

1:46

interview series allows me to pretend

1:48

that I'm also friends with all

1:50

of Zach's cool friends. I

1:54

probably joined the whole friend circle

1:56

last, and so there are a

1:58

lot of people in Saeed's. Orbit and in

2:00

Zach's orbit where I'm like, when

2:03

do I get to be their friend? In

2:06

this series kind of lesson me in a little bit

2:08

So I'm loving it and Sam they all feel that

2:10

way about you I've been here all the time where

2:12

people are like, how is it being friends with Sam?

2:14

Even the other day my sister told me that one

2:16

of her best friends in San Francisco Will

2:19

tell people at work that his friend Sam

2:21

said something and he doesn't know you Friendship

2:27

for everyone Everybody

2:30

it's also you know, I was thinking about because

2:32

I you know, I adore Raquel as well I'm

2:34

so happy she continues to thrive But

2:37

also it occurs to me black queer

2:39

people from the south Mm-hmm I think

2:41

we are so well equipped for this

2:43

moment that our country finds us and

2:45

where you know, obviously Intersectional

2:48

is one lens But I would also

2:50

say just like the knowledge

2:52

someone like Raquel and I would say the three

2:54

of us that the four of us Have come

2:56

into via the various roads

2:58

we have traveled Across

3:01

our various identities just feels we're

3:03

just like so well positioned

3:05

Yes, I think just make

3:07

to this moment and Raquel epitomizes that

3:10

and like when you say speaking to the moment as

3:12

Southerners Something Southerners are good

3:14

at and something black Southerners are good

3:16

at is making it plain when it's

3:18

time to make a plane We

3:20

can do it. And so I love Conversations

3:24

that allow us and other black Southerners

3:26

to go there. It just always speaks

3:28

to me Yeah, I love what you

3:30

both just said because Raquel as you mentioned

3:32

is from the South like us. She's black.

3:34

She's queer She started in journalism people don't

3:36

know this about her because she became very

3:38

well known as an activist But she began

3:40

as a local journalist working like a very

3:42

small paper And then from there

3:45

she got involved in activism in Atlanta, you know

3:47

Kind of got inspired to be part of the

3:49

movement and then through the movement was brought back

3:51

to media and she and I worked together At

3:54

Pride Media. She was the highest ranking trans woman.

3:56

I think in publishing at the time. She was

3:58

the executive editor of out And

4:00

I was the editor in chief at The Advocate.

4:02

But there's something about, to your point, Sam, there's

4:04

like a way in which black, clear people in

4:07

the South make things plain and are able to

4:09

meet the moment of Said's bringing up that brought

4:11

us both to journalism at a moment when Trump

4:13

was rising, all these things were happening. So we

4:16

get into all of that, and there's a lot

4:18

of fun nuggets. Fun nuggets, I love it. Fun

4:20

nuggets, and her book that we talk a lot

4:22

about and use as kind of the basis of

4:24

the conversation, it's called The Risk It Takes to

4:27

Bloom, it's her memoir. And as I

4:29

was reading it before talking to her about it, I

4:31

realized, some pages in, deeper in the book,

4:33

I pop up in it. And when I pop up

4:35

in it as a character, I'm sitting

4:37

with Lil Kim, the rapper, and I was

4:39

like, thank you, Raquel, for making

4:42

me seem so cool at one moment.

4:45

When did you, well, I guess we'll

4:47

find out. You'll find out. Why am

4:49

I here? And Lil Kim and Raquel

4:51

were all together. In the car, I

4:53

love it. I love it. Nice promo,

4:55

nice promo. Thank you. We're ready. And

4:58

it's at the end of the episode, too, so you guys gotta

5:00

finish the episode. But we're not gonna tell you where at the

5:02

end. Yeah, no, we're not gonna tell you. No,

5:05

go searching, just listen, it's wonderful. What's going

5:07

on? Are we testing listeners or

5:09

something? We should,

5:12

we should put out like a vibe check, crossword

5:14

puzzle. Ooh. That

5:16

actually sounds nice. Fill it up like, that'll be fun. All

5:18

right, with that, I can't wait for you all to hear

5:20

this conversation, so let's just dive in. Oh,

5:22

yeah. Rocco

5:30

Willis, welcome to Vibe Check. It is so

5:32

nice to have you here. How are you

5:34

today? Where are you in the world? I

5:37

feel good. Where am I in the

5:40

world? Well, I am in Brooklyn. It's a

5:42

little gross outside, but you

5:44

know, you deal with what you can here.

5:47

But I feel great. And

5:49

my spirit is trying to catch up.

5:52

I feel like alongside everyone else's. Yeah,

5:55

I totally understand that. In

5:57

a sense, you are on Vibe Check, what we ask

5:59

everyone. everyone that comes on VibeCheck, like we

6:01

do every week on our show, we ask what's

6:03

your vibe this week, so tell us what is

6:05

your vibe. My

6:08

vibe is endurance.

6:11

Endurance? I

6:13

have a vibe that's deeply invested

6:15

in just enduring right now.

6:19

Oh, wow. Is it like

6:21

an avalanche of work hitting you or is it just

6:23

like a big year for you of lots of new

6:25

things coming out? It's a

6:27

big year, but I'm also

6:29

just trying to find

6:32

my moments to recharge in the midst

6:34

of everything that's going on just like

6:36

in the world and work and

6:39

in life. And I think

6:41

endurance is like, yes, I'm enduring

6:43

some things, but it's more of the

6:45

positive spin on enduring, you know? Yeah,

6:48

I love it. I love that. And it's kind

6:50

of perfect, you know, your book, The Risk It

6:52

Takes To Bloom on life and liberation is

6:54

endurance. It's like reading it. I was like,

6:56

whoa, she has been going through it for a

6:59

long time, but yet she continues to persevere

7:01

through it all. Gosh,

7:05

well, speaking of your book, I'd love to

7:07

just dive right in there and use the

7:09

book as a way for our listeners to

7:11

better understand not only you, but our

7:14

relationship. And I promise listeners,

7:16

I'm not being a raging narcissist by placing myself

7:18

within this book, even though I do pop up,

7:20

which by the way, thank you, Raquel, for putting

7:22

me in the same sentence as Lil Kim, that

7:24

was the best surprise in my life, which I'll

7:26

get into. But

7:29

the reason why I love that we're talking today

7:31

is that, you know, we're both black

7:34

queer folks from the South and

7:36

without even realizing it. And we've known each other

7:38

for years, but it wasn't until reading this

7:40

book that I realized our lives have

7:42

run such a strong parallel

7:44

for so long from both being

7:46

interested in, you know, our

7:49

Southernness and growing up in the South

7:51

and what that means to going to

7:53

school and becoming writers and realizing that

7:55

the writing industry wasn't really for us

7:57

to dipping into activism and then the

7:59

activism because. the work itself

8:01

and it keeps motivating you. And then eventually

8:03

you and I did work together and we

8:05

were at that time the highest ranking black

8:07

queer people as editors and media at the

8:09

time. So which we'll talk about later. So

8:12

with all that being said, I'd love to just begin

8:14

with something I love about

8:16

you, which is you are so proud

8:18

of your Southernness and where you come

8:20

from. And I remember when I served

8:22

writing, you know, in 2011, I

8:25

never identified as a black writer, didn't really identify

8:28

as a gay writer. I identified as a writer

8:30

from Tennessee and that was super, super important to

8:32

me. Talk to me about why

8:34

for me, your book is

8:36

such like a Southern memoir and

8:39

why speaking about growing up in the

8:41

South is so important to you. Yeah,

8:43

well, I of course always have to

8:45

give love to my Southern kindred.

8:48

So much love to you and

8:50

the little Tennessee you out there.

8:54

And so there's the little Georgia me,

8:56

right? That I carry with me in

8:58

every space and conversation that I enter.

9:01

And it was so important for

9:03

multiple reasons to highlight

9:05

my Southernness. I think

9:07

one is being

9:09

from the South is kind of coming into

9:13

an understanding of yourself as

9:15

this perpetual outsider. I

9:17

mean, that is just kind

9:20

of the interesting history of

9:22

this country, the United States is that

9:25

Southerners, regardless of what

9:27

you look like, what's your background is,

9:30

you're often on the periphery of

9:32

what's considered the main story, right?

9:35

And I think growing up as

9:37

a little black, gender, non-conforming, queer,

9:39

something, even though I didn't have

9:41

all of these words, the

9:44

idea was that the story was always somewhere

9:46

else. The story was in New York. The

9:48

story was in San Francisco. It

9:50

definitely was not in Augusta, Georgia, where I'm from.

9:52

So at the very least, if I wanted a

9:55

smidge of a story, I might have to go

9:57

to Atlanta, but that is

9:59

kind of. the way that things operate.

10:01

And I still feel like that's true

10:03

now, right? There's such a way

10:06

that the South becomes a scapegoat

10:08

for all of the bigotry, all

10:10

of the kind of regressive

10:13

qualities of this country, of

10:16

course, because of the history of

10:18

the Civil War and enslavement and

10:20

reconstruction and so on and so

10:22

forth. But I've

10:24

had to fight to reclaim

10:26

my power as a Southern

10:28

person. And also to shift

10:31

how I think about the South, because

10:33

it's not just a place where oppression

10:35

and struggle has happened. It's also been

10:38

a place that has been the hotbed

10:40

of all of our social justice movements

10:42

throughout time. So you don't get

10:45

the civil rights movement without the South.

10:47

You don't get so many of these

10:49

freedom fighters that we have

10:51

so many glowing critiques

10:54

of and mentions

10:56

of without the South.

10:58

So that's important. I think the other

11:01

thing too, particularly thinking about queer

11:03

history, is that it

11:05

took me a long time to

11:07

understand that, oh, queer folks weren't

11:10

just in New York and San

11:12

Francisco and these kind of meccas.

11:14

We are everywhere and we've been

11:17

everywhere. And so I

11:19

was an adult when I learned

11:21

about the Lady Shablee, for instance,

11:23

or even that Sir Lady Java

11:26

was from the South, right? Or

11:28

other hometown heroes like Dee Dee

11:30

Shablee and Cheryl Courtney Evans

11:32

and Tracy McDaniel and others

11:34

in Georgia. So it's

11:36

been important for me to own that

11:38

Southernness as much as anything else. Yeah.

11:41

And it feels as if the

11:43

Southernness and Georgia as a place

11:45

is the fertile ground in which

11:48

you plant your seed. And you know that

11:50

harkens to the fact that the book is

11:52

a metaphor on a flower blossoming and blooming.

11:54

And I mean, it's called The Risk It

11:56

Takes to Bloom. So talk to me about

11:58

why were you so intentional about... not

12:00

only titling this work, The Risk It Takes

12:02

to Bloom, but the structure of it is

12:04

about the gardening, the taking care of a

12:06

flower and watching it come to life. Why

12:09

was that used for you? Well,

12:11

this idea of blooming, it came from

12:13

numerous sources. One

12:15

of course was the first time I heard

12:17

this short poem that mentions the line, The

12:20

Risk It Takes to Bloom. It

12:22

was listening to Alicia Keys, her third album,

12:24

The Element of Freedom. So she does a

12:26

rendition of this short poem where she says,

12:29

and the day came when the risk to

12:31

remain tight in the bud was more painful

12:33

than the risk it took to bloom. And

12:37

that stuck with me the first time I

12:39

heard it. I was like this young queer

12:41

something at the University of Georgia with my

12:43

freshman year. And it resonated

12:46

with me then. But I also

12:48

thought about growing up as

12:50

a young kid being raised as a little

12:53

boy and loving these

12:55

magnolias that grew on this

12:57

tree that my neighbor had

12:59

in my childhood backyard. And

13:01

the branches would reach over and I was

13:03

like enthralled with the scents

13:06

that came from the flowers and

13:08

the petals and how the texture

13:10

felt. But then I also remember

13:12

feeling a fear because I was

13:14

not supposed to like these things,

13:16

right? As someone being raised as

13:18

a little boy. So these gendered

13:20

expectations crept in. And

13:22

I also had this idea that I

13:25

was not supposed to experience softness and

13:27

the feeling of being pure and precious

13:30

or even beautiful or all of these

13:32

different things. Just like that

13:34

flower. I would never be that flower in

13:36

this context. And so that is

13:38

kind of where this origin

13:41

of blooming came from. And

13:43

then I just kind of played with that

13:45

as I kind of talked about

13:47

different parts of my life because

13:50

it's all about kind of again

13:52

taking risks to see if there's

13:54

something more beautiful and powerful on the

13:56

other side. And that's a

13:58

part of the queer. experience, the

14:01

Black experience, being a

14:03

woman, being Southern, is,

14:05

you know, owning these parts of

14:07

ourselves, owning our voices, so that

14:10

hopefully we can change

14:12

the conditions that maybe feel so

14:14

constricting. Yeah, I love that. And

14:16

you know, as you're talking about this, it makes

14:18

me think of, you know, the

14:21

poem by Tupac Shakur, the rose that

14:23

grew from concrete, which is really beautiful,

14:25

people haven't read. And when

14:27

you think about the Buddha chant Namyoho

14:29

Rinke Kyo, which Tina Turner popularized, it's

14:31

about a lotus. So all these metaphors,

14:33

especially within Blackness, as we're saying these

14:36

names, Tupac, Tina Turner, or Raquel Willis,

14:38

it's about flowers rising

14:40

through untenable circumstances and risking

14:42

it all to become beautiful.

14:45

But you know, sometimes that's easier said than done,

14:47

because it's really hard. And your book details a

14:49

lot of trials and tribulations that you went through

14:51

as a person trying to find themselves. So

14:54

you know, something I love to ask folks like

14:56

you is, what is the thing that every morning

14:58

you thought of, or what do you think pushed

15:00

you through these moments? Because so much of what

15:02

you wrote reminds me something Janet Mock once said

15:04

to me when I first met her. She said,

15:06

blazing trails is really lonely, because you're acknowledging that

15:08

no one's walked here before. So no one's probably

15:11

walking next to you. And a lot

15:13

of what you went through in your life was a

15:15

lot of loneliness. So talk to me about the blooming

15:17

process, and how did you continue to find the energy

15:19

to keep pushing for that blossom? Oh,

15:22

wow. I think

15:24

a lot of it, and a

15:27

lot of what you brought up is so true.

15:29

I mean, I think there's so much

15:31

isolation and being marginalized

15:33

and being different and being made

15:35

to feel like you're the only

15:37

one. And I

15:39

found glimmers of liberation

15:42

and stories that made me feel

15:44

like I wasn't the only one. I think it

15:46

became a part of my duty to try and

15:48

do that for other folks. folks

16:00

through my work and what I create.

16:03

But what kept me going

16:06

was trusting my

16:08

inner voice. I think as

16:11

a young, queer, something who knew

16:13

that I was different from a

16:15

young age, whether it was because

16:17

of the bullying from peers or

16:20

just the math, not math-ing

16:22

around me from what adults

16:24

were saying or institutions like

16:26

the Catholic Church were

16:28

saying or even politicians at that time

16:30

were saying when they were talking about

16:32

the sanctity of marriage, I

16:35

knew that there was an inner

16:37

voice that I needed to protect

16:40

and defend when I could and preserve

16:42

for when I was in a space

16:45

to fully own my power.

16:48

And I think when I finally started

16:50

to get to a space where I

16:53

was more comfortable sharing my truth, whether

16:55

it was coming out as gay as

16:57

a teenager or coming out as trans

16:59

in college, I started to

17:01

also realize, oh, well,

17:03

this can be in service

17:06

to hopefully empowering others to

17:08

do the same in their own lives. Yeah,

17:11

I love that because that's what this work

17:13

requires, especially if folks like yourself who have

17:15

been working for the past decade, knows the

17:17

powers of the internet, knows the reach that

17:20

you have, and knows what is needed to

17:22

survive the world as a young trans person,

17:24

as a queer person, that you need to

17:26

have hope in the world. So it is

17:29

our duty as the ancestors living now that

17:31

we're in our 30s. Oh,

17:33

Lord. But

17:36

to leave a trail, leave a

17:39

map behind for people to find

17:41

their way because there's a way because you lived it

17:43

and you found that way. And

17:45

through your book, there were moments

17:48

of popular culture that popped up. I

17:50

would say one of my favorite aspects

17:52

of your book is that I'm reading

17:54

a memoir of somewhat of a similar

17:56

age and your touch points of culture,

17:58

whether it's music, television, political

18:00

moments are so similar to

18:02

what shaped me, you know, seeing Laverne

18:05

Cox on VH1 on the Diddy show

18:07

that only like probably black kids watch.

18:10

Like people trying to get a job with Diddy, which

18:12

is very problematic now to think about wanting to have

18:14

a job with Diddy. And

18:16

so many other, you know, queer people like RuPaul

18:18

who appears out of nowhere to us as kids,

18:21

I'm like, who is that person? Now, I was

18:23

really delighted to be like, oh, I too just

18:25

had RuPaul appear on a commercial. I was like,

18:27

who is that? Tell me

18:29

about that part of the book, the

18:31

pop culture of it all, how you were very

18:34

intentionally showing a map of how culture

18:36

has been shifting over the years and the people

18:38

you look to. Well,

18:40

that's the contextualizing piece. And I

18:42

don't know if that's like the

18:44

it's like the journalist superpower, but it

18:46

can also be our Achilles Hill. And

18:48

to be honest, I think in

18:51

my early draft, at

18:53

least the first two, I

18:56

just had to be more

18:58

choosy about what I contextualize

19:00

and how, because there's a

19:02

way that we're so good

19:04

at contextualizing that we can

19:06

lean on that without ever

19:08

having to say anything specific

19:10

about ourselves. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

19:13

And so that that's such a thing. And then you throw on

19:15

there being a social justice warrior. And

19:17

then we're never getting back to my

19:20

personal story. It

19:22

all becomes like a shield of not talking about

19:24

yourself, but talking about yourself. Look how smart I

19:26

am. Look at all these things I'm giving you, but

19:28

there's not actual depth there. Those aren't a part of you.

19:32

Thank you for saying that because that is a

19:34

trick to people like us where we're like, oh,

19:36

I'm going to glamorize my knowledge as a way

19:38

for you not to actually go deep with me.

19:40

But I will say in the draft that I

19:43

read of the book, you do go deep after

19:45

those moments. So talking. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I

19:47

think the going deep part. So I

19:50

really have been interested

19:52

in owning that I

19:55

have a right to critique culture,

19:58

but also a right to. name

20:00

the things that have impacted my

20:02

life as well. I think

20:05

as a journalist and someone in media who

20:07

is black, who is queer, who is trans, who

20:09

is a woman, so often, at

20:12

least earlier in my career, I was kind

20:14

of faced with folks saying, well, this is

20:16

what's important. This is the storyline. And it's

20:19

like, no, no, honey. Is that really the

20:21

storyline of the people that I

20:23

most care about or that I

20:26

believe are the tastemakers? Probably

20:28

not. So it was important

20:30

for me to share how

20:33

I was shaped by

20:35

the images around me,

20:37

for better or worse, right? So

20:40

not only was it the

20:42

horrible depictions of queer and

20:44

trans folks, whether on Jerry

20:46

Springer or some of these

20:48

tabloid talk shows or even

20:50

the harrowing news coverage of

20:52

someone like Matthew Shepard,

20:54

right? But it was

20:56

also these other portrayals where

20:59

people like RuPaul were

21:01

kind of like beacons

21:03

of queerness and what

21:05

being unapologetic could look

21:08

like. It was folks,

21:10

of course, like Laverne and Isis

21:12

King. And then later on,

21:15

the Amaya Scott and the TS Madisons

21:18

of the world and Janet and

21:20

Gina and so on, who gave

21:22

me life. And

21:25

I loved having the opportunity

21:27

to share that, right?

21:29

That we kind of feed each other in

21:32

this culture. And now it's weird, I think,

21:34

to be a person who folks

21:36

see me in

21:38

that way. And I still

21:40

don't fully hold it, but

21:42

I'm trying. And

21:45

so that part is interesting to me now

21:47

to even also just to

21:49

have access to these figures

21:52

in this way now in my career

21:54

too is something that

21:56

I don't take lightly at all either. So

21:59

I think the. cultural piece is important.

22:01

I mean, I'm shaped by outcast

22:05

and their music just as much as

22:08

I'm shaped by Laverne on Orange is

22:10

the New Black and on and on.

22:12

Yeah, I did have this moment where

22:14

as you're talking about your life and

22:16

your lived experiences and things like the

22:19

story of you speaking at the Women's

22:21

March after Trump is elected, and you

22:23

seeing Janelle Monae for potentially the first

22:25

time and all these incredible celebrities, and

22:27

then I was like, wait a minute,

22:30

didn't Janelle blurb this book? And I

22:32

said, that's so wild. These cool circle

22:34

moments of like you reflecting on, you

22:36

know, being introduced to these worlds and seeing these

22:38

people who got you through life, like Janelle Monae

22:41

was so important to you through college, but then

22:43

now you're speaking at the same event as her.

22:45

And it has to be dizzy because I felt

22:47

a similar version of that because it's this moment

22:49

you're like, when did I become the person I

22:51

used to look up to? Do you think of

22:54

it that way? Hmm. It's

22:56

hard to I guess I

22:58

don't, you know, I still

23:00

just feel like the same girl who

23:03

is always trying to be better

23:06

and do more and articulate things

23:08

better. I think

23:10

what's different now is the

23:13

responsibility to use

23:16

my platform to support other folks who

23:18

are up and coming. So, so that

23:21

is a thing or to support grassroots

23:23

efforts when I can. That

23:25

has shifted. But I don't

23:28

know that I will ever fill or

23:30

see that scene that I guess other

23:32

folks will. And maybe that's that's the

23:35

good thing, right? Because maybe when you

23:37

do start really completely fully filling yourself,

23:39

that's when things shift, honey, and you

23:42

might have a missed

23:44

the west moment or, you know,

23:46

something like that, where the ego

23:48

just completely kind of eats you

23:50

up. Oh, yeah, that's when that's

23:52

when like Twitter will take you down when they smell

23:54

that water that you're feeling it too much that they

23:56

will check you. Oh

24:00

God. Well, you know, something I'd

24:02

love to dive in with you from

24:04

the book in your life, and it also

24:06

ties to the work that you do and

24:09

that I have done in the past, is

24:11

that you're very open about showing how you've

24:13

navigated love and learning to not

24:15

only love yourself, but other people and how

24:17

your own identity has been changing constantly

24:20

as you go through that process of love. And

24:24

something that really like arrested me as your friend, I

24:26

had to have a moment where I was like, okay,

24:28

this is a long time ago, she's obviously still here

24:30

with us, but it was the first

24:32

story of you going on a date with a guy

24:34

online. You go to his house

24:36

and how you set up the scene is

24:38

a scene that you and I as reporters, as

24:41

community members have read a lot about, you

24:43

then personal experience where, you know, you may

24:45

go home with a guy and the guy

24:47

may know your tea and then something terrible

24:49

happens. And a lot of women that we both

24:52

have known in our lives have been murdered in the

24:54

wake of that. And in that moment you weren't murdered,

24:56

but you are having to reckon with this new life

24:58

of being a trans woman in dating. Why

25:01

was it important for you to fill the book

25:03

so much with you trying to find love? Wow.

25:07

Yeah. Well, I

25:09

think the love part, I

25:11

mean, to be quite honest,

25:13

people are very obsessed with

25:16

trying to parse out the

25:19

love lives and the sex lives

25:22

of all of us, but of

25:24

course of women and of course

25:26

of trans women. And

25:29

so I've wanted to share

25:32

a not so linear, not

25:34

so neat discussion around

25:37

desire, the quest

25:39

for validation, because I think we're all

25:41

on that, even though we don't really

25:43

name that or say that. And

25:46

also to share that, you know, I'm

25:48

also now, you know, black

25:50

trans woman in her thirties to a single has

25:52

been for a minute, right? You know, if I

25:54

ain't no ring on my finger, you ain't going

25:56

to my ground. Shout out to

25:58

Cardi B. But

26:02

that is kind of how I've lived,

26:04

right? So I am a

26:06

very secretive person, I guess, in

26:08

some ways around my love life

26:10

and sex life. But

26:13

I also wanted to share that, you

26:16

know, I'm a 30-something black woman

26:18

with a career, and

26:21

the journey to this point

26:23

was already difficult, right? So

26:25

I'm already a special mix

26:27

now. But

26:30

I was that then. And

26:32

so I wanted to share the difficulty

26:34

of that. I wanted to share

26:36

kind of the anguish of yearning

26:38

for more, but feeling like I

26:41

live in a society or in

26:43

a culture that maybe isn't ready

26:45

for me, right? Or that I

26:48

fear hasn't produced people who are

26:50

able to rise to the occasion

26:52

of what makes me special and

26:55

sacred and beautiful and brilliant. And

26:58

so that felt important. And

27:00

I also know that that is not just something

27:02

that trans people are dealing with in this time.

27:06

That is something that a lot of

27:08

people across identities are dealing with, you

27:10

know, the feelings of yearning and

27:13

loneliness and wanting more,

27:15

but having issues with

27:18

connection or communicating with

27:20

each other or understanding each other.

27:22

So that felt important. I also

27:24

discuss, I mean, even just, I

27:27

think the stakes of being a black

27:29

trans woman, trying to

27:31

live unapologetically and go after the

27:33

things I desire. You

27:35

know, I can't even really just go

27:37

out to the club. And so

27:40

there's another discussion in a later

27:42

chapter of going to a club

27:44

where I experience harassment. But

27:46

I can't just have what we consider

27:48

to be those quintessential young

27:51

woman experiences without the creeping

27:53

fear of being found out,

27:55

you know, as if my

27:58

transness is so much horrible

28:00

secret and it's not, right?

28:03

It's actually something that's beautiful to

28:05

me and powerful to me.

28:07

But how do you articulate that to someone who's

28:10

never experienced that

28:13

beauty and sacredness? I

28:15

would say what you do so gracefully

28:17

in the book through your discussions of

28:20

love and that I haven't really read

28:22

before in other memoirs, exploring trans identity

28:24

and the lives of trans people we

28:26

know and love is that you do

28:29

show very clearly the unfairness and the

28:31

burden that is placed upon you to

28:33

begin disclosing so much so quickly. You

28:35

have to begin letting people in on

28:38

some deeply personal things and anxieties all

28:40

for the sake of one,

28:42

them feeling okay and then two, you

28:44

just staying alive. And I think you

28:47

create a great sense of stakes that

28:49

are very different than cis people. If

28:51

I go on a date, even with

28:53

another gay guy that's closeted, the stakes

28:55

in terms of violence, potential violence is

28:57

up there but it's not what you're

28:59

facing by just trying to get a

29:01

kiss, hold a hand, dance.

29:05

Do you think showing depicting the

29:07

reality of trans life in this really mundane

29:09

way of that how you were just living

29:11

and life could just come flying at you

29:13

really fast is helping people better

29:15

understand trans people in the world right now? I

29:18

hope so. I mean, I hope that we can

29:20

have more conversation and I

29:23

acknowledge so I don't know that it's mundane,

29:26

right? I do still actually feel

29:28

like it is an extra experience,

29:32

you know, it is a unique

29:35

experience of dating, particularly as

29:37

a black trans woman, right?

29:41

But I also think that there are openings there, right?

29:43

So, you know, maybe

29:45

someone who is living

29:47

beautifully and brilliantly with a fat

29:49

body, right? Or a positive body

29:52

or who is disabled,

29:54

right? Can find their place in

29:56

a discussion that I'm having around

29:59

what it's like to

30:01

disclose this or deal

30:03

with wavering levels

30:05

of desire and having

30:09

to like, you know, hold

30:11

the whim and, and concerns

30:13

of someone that we hope can be

30:16

our partner or something, right? Maybe even

30:18

if it's just for a few hours,

30:21

maybe they can see an end

30:23

there, right? And then I think

30:25

the universal thing is that we're

30:28

all wanting to be desired and

30:30

wanting to be validated. And we have

30:33

to be able to see that and

30:35

understand that and give grace for that.

30:37

Because it's not just trans folks, right?

30:40

And so I think that there is

30:42

a universal discussion we need

30:44

to be having about desire

30:47

and validation. And I think there's also always

30:50

going to be a piece of justice in there

30:52

for me to talk about

30:54

these things openly as well. Because

30:56

when I think about so many

30:59

of the particularly trans women of

31:01

color that we've lost to violence, often

31:04

it's in a domestic violence situation or

31:07

an intimate partner violence situation. And I've

31:09

just seen and heard over the year

31:12

so much justification for

31:14

the violence that

31:17

we face or the murder even

31:19

that my sisters and sisters

31:21

have faced. And I

31:23

think that it's just so not fair,

31:25

you know, so unfair for

31:28

us to put our assumptions

31:30

on to their experiences

31:32

and for others to put their

31:35

assumptions on to our experiences as

31:37

well. Now I

31:39

agree completely. We're gonna take

31:41

a quick break here, but don't go anywhere. We'll be right

31:43

back. Hey,

31:48

I hope you're enjoying the conversation. Taking

31:50

a quick break right here to thank

31:52

Ulta Beauty for presenting this episode of

31:54

Hey Sis. In an industry

31:56

where beauty is often defined by standards,

31:58

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32:00

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32:03

authenticity, and highlighting brands that do

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the same. That's why

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Ulta Beauty is celebrating black-owned and

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founded brands this month and every

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month. And what I love

32:14

about Ulta is that they have so many

32:16

of the black-owned brands that I love. Brands

32:18

like Pat McGrath, who I use when I

32:20

get into drag or wear makeup for a

32:22

fun night out. And I remember as a

32:24

young person going to Ulta and booking my

32:26

makeup consultation appointments, which you can do, where

32:28

you get to try makeup, and

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get your mug done if you need to go out with

32:32

a fresh coat of paint on your

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face. Head to your local

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Ulta Beauty store or visit ulta.com

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to shop your favorite black-owned and

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founded brands. We're

32:49

back and we're jumping right back into

32:51

this conversation with Raquel Willis. So

32:53

something your book also, I think, lands

32:55

the plane really well on is it

32:58

gives, you know, a really

33:00

accessible story and I would say material

33:02

evidence to theories within gender and

33:04

queer studies that we talk a lot about. You and

33:06

I both studied that in school. We

33:08

can talk about everyone from Bell Hooks to Jose Estoy and

33:10

Munoz to all these people you've said to us. We know

33:12

all this theory, but a lot of people don't know theory,

33:15

they need like reality. And something your

33:17

book does really well is it offers us

33:19

a very clear example of why trans

33:22

acceptance isn't so much for trans people, but

33:24

it's for all of us. Dismantling

33:27

the gender patriarchy is for

33:29

all of us. Talk to us about

33:31

that part of the book and this larger

33:33

message that you're trying to give us about

33:35

how gender is failing everybody in many ways,

33:37

but also is this beautiful gift that we

33:39

can give each other? Yeah, I

33:41

mean, this is something that has come up on

33:43

the tour a lot. I've had a lot of

33:46

questions from people of all

33:49

backgrounds about how

33:51

gender has failed them

33:53

or how they can interrogate

33:55

how gender operates in their

33:57

lives. So I Guess on

33:59

a basis. Why? And I will say what

34:01

I have not always been able to say right?

34:03

But I think at this point in my life.

34:06

I own and all right, and I

34:08

as feel so much less fear about.

34:11

Certain. Parts of my store been weaponized

34:13

against me. There's so many

34:15

answered points for so many different. folks.

34:18

And for my story. So.

34:20

When I think about. The boyhood that I

34:22

had. I think about the ways

34:24

that gender foul restrictive than. In

34:27

ways that maybe worm. Deeper

34:30

than mine. says.

34:33

Male counterparts but still on the

34:35

same spectrum. Thousand Plague I was

34:37

told I could and have certain

34:39

a mouse and. Without.

34:42

You know turning my back or and masculine

34:44

be even though I wanted to do at

34:46

first or buy it for and. says.

34:49

Boys and other boys who are told

34:51

that they. Can. Cry and

34:53

have certain interest without

34:56

betraying their masculinity. Gender

34:58

has failed them in the way that it felt

35:00

me. as someone who had a little

35:02

boy heard. When I think

35:05

about growing and semi woman

35:07

hired and. Trying. To

35:09

find the health care that I

35:11

needed to be my fullest fouls.

35:14

And answer? Hold on. So this their

35:16

ally of right? because. As

35:18

say spans our friends as send

35:21

our farming here as life. I

35:24

think about. The fight said

35:26

so many particularly says woman but

35:29

of course folks of other gender

35:31

experiences have around reproductive justice right

35:33

and demanding abortion access rights so

35:36

they can live their lives on

35:38

their own terms. That's connected some

35:41

my experience and growing and my

35:43

trans woman heard and trying somebody

35:45

that as fully as. As.

35:47

i desired so i mean i see

35:49

that they are so many and three

35:52

points here for us to talk about

35:54

how does and or has vowed i

35:56

but i also think that we all

35:58

deserve to saturday's expectation so we

36:00

can live freer and fuller lives. And I

36:02

hope the stories that I share within the

36:05

book, not only

36:07

humanize trans experiences,

36:10

but also allow folks to understand

36:12

that maybe at the end of the

36:14

day, there isn't this kind of

36:16

new binary of trans and cis. Maybe

36:19

we're all just folks who are felt

36:21

by the gender to varying degrees. Amen.

36:24

It is, you know, you said you were right

36:26

about the epistemology of the closet thing.

36:28

We're always coming out and no one ever

36:30

is out. You're always trying to explain or

36:32

tell someone, but you know, there's some truth

36:34

in that. And what you're offering us is

36:37

that, you know, there isn't a finite into

36:39

any of our experiences. They're always unfolding. Like

36:41

the blossoming is constantly blossoming. You're always blooming

36:43

new things. And I think if we live

36:45

in a world that is that expansive, then

36:47

we all will feel, I think we'll feel

36:49

better. I mean, that's why I, I think

36:51

you both of us have dedicated

36:54

our lives to queer folks and non-binary

36:56

for all these folks who live outside the

36:59

center of the world that live on the borders, that

37:01

live on the sidelines. We think like that's where

37:04

the future sits is that these people offer us

37:06

a world that is, that is actual freedom being

37:08

inside the box is not free. It's

37:11

not, it's really not.

37:13

And I especially

37:15

think of it coming up a lot

37:17

with like young people, you know,

37:20

anytime I see a meme about the gay

37:22

son or the thought daughter, which one would

37:24

you want? Oh, God. I mean, you're basically

37:26

saying you don't want any

37:28

of us to live freely or

37:30

on our own terms, first of

37:32

all. But, you know, I also

37:35

just think about how those

37:37

homophobic and restrictive ideas

37:40

about masculinity impact straight

37:42

men too, right?

37:45

And men too, which leads them to continue

37:48

to enforce that

37:51

as they get older because they don't know any better,

37:53

right? Or they don't know that there's a

37:56

path that they can chart that they have the

37:58

power to chart on their own. And

38:00

the same thing for women and girls, right?

38:02

Like all of these discussions around

38:04

who is a real woman and

38:06

who isn't and how trans women

38:08

are trying to strip cis women

38:11

of their womanhood. Ignore

38:13

the idea or the understanding

38:15

that your power is

38:17

yours, honey. Nobody can

38:20

take anything from you. Yes.

38:23

And so if I as a black trans woman

38:25

can go into any space, right? And

38:28

yeah, I may feel my anxieties and

38:30

fears about being judged. Yes, because I'm

38:32

human. But there is nobody

38:35

who was ever going to tell me that

38:37

I am not a woman. And I'm

38:39

going to let that actually become a

38:42

part of my narrative or become a

38:44

part of my spirit. No,

38:46

honey. If I did that, I would not

38:48

exist. This book would not exist. I would

38:50

not be here. And then I

38:53

also just think about all the ancestors

38:55

who came before. You

38:57

know, you think Sylvia Rivera was going

38:59

to let somebody tell her that she

39:01

wasn't who she was? Oh, God, no,

39:03

no, no. And she had even less

39:06

resources and access than I and so

39:08

many of our peers do. So

39:10

that's what keeps me grounded, is

39:13

knowing that I had to fight to

39:16

stake my claim in this earth. And

39:18

I have to continue to preserve and defend

39:20

that fight because that's my power. But also

39:23

that there were folks who came before who

39:25

did that as well. And

39:27

hopefully, cis folks

39:30

of all experiences can be

39:32

empowered by what I'm trying

39:34

to demonstrate instead of threatened

39:37

by it. Yeah. Hey,

39:39

man, that's a word you were preaching today with

39:42

all this. So I'm so

39:45

mad. We only have a few minutes left. I

39:47

know. I'm like, ugh. But it

39:49

was so good for me to read this part of the book.

39:51

And I want to ask you about it because you're one of

39:54

the few people in the world I can ask this question to.

39:56

And I'm so glad we can do it here. So for context,

39:58

everybody. Rock, hell, well, let's. From

40:00

beginning the book. I would say pretty

40:02

early on the book wants to be a journalist

40:04

has dreams of New York the clamor Wants

40:07

to be a magazine editor all these things same things I

40:09

had in my own little town where I was reading vogue

40:11

and I was like I one day want to live in

40:13

New York She eventually gets

40:16

that dream she'd get the job offer from our

40:18

dear friend Philip O'Carly who was the editor-in-chief of

40:20

out He's also the reason why

40:22

I became the editor-in-chief of the advocate So he

40:24

was an advocate for both of us and we

40:27

both joined him in this effort to to really

40:29

help revolutionize queer media

40:31

in 2019

40:33

1819 area right before the pandemic so Our

40:38

company we join is your in the book is a

40:40

mess once we join and it's not everything It's not

40:42

the 90s magazines that people dreamed of we're not getting

40:44

the salaries that people in the 90s used to get

40:46

we're not getting The black cars were getting nothing, but

40:49

we're having to do ten times the work

40:52

And what I want to ask you about

40:54

is you know you get your dream and

40:56

even at the end of this part of

40:58

the book You're contemplating becoming the editor-in-chief of

41:00

the magazine even amidst all this disarray But

41:03

you obviously don't and you know eventually due to

41:05

this book and so many other amazing projects So

41:07

your dream you get to touch it for a

41:09

second, and then it goes away Yeah,

41:12

what was that like for you to live

41:14

your dream briefly and have it go away

41:16

because I have my own feelings about it

41:18

For another show, but you're on the few

41:20

people I look at and be like you

41:22

got the dream and then it evaporated Yeah

41:26

There's a bitter sweetness there it

41:28

took me a long time to

41:31

Fully process that because when the dream

41:33

ended for me Cuz

41:35

it was a staggered kind of laying

41:38

off of everyone and and departures right

41:40

so so it's like you and Phil

41:42

left December 2019 Yes,

41:45

those December. I was January January end

41:47

of January and then you were in

41:50

February literally probably like two weeks after

41:53

yeah, yeah, so I Didn't

41:55

really get a chance to make peace

41:57

with it because the week after I

42:01

officially left, the pandemic

42:03

happened. Everything

42:05

shut down. And so

42:08

interestingly, I think a lot of

42:10

dreams and a lot of people's

42:12

dream shifted or floated away

42:14

or transformed during that time.

42:17

And it's bittersweet. I mean,

42:19

I'm glad that we were able to

42:21

be there to make the explosive,

42:24

seismic shifts that we

42:26

did for that

42:28

amount of time. But I think

42:30

once the summer of 2020 happened and

42:33

there was kind of that social justice

42:35

awakening, there was a different

42:38

vantage point there for me because

42:40

I realized, and

42:43

I kind of already knew this,

42:45

right? But some of my like

42:47

social justice sensibilities and everything wasn't

42:49

fully respected in that

42:51

kind of pre the

42:54

unfortunate murder of George Floyd moment,

42:56

right? And space, like

42:58

I was there and people knew

43:00

of my work and

43:03

I think within community, but after that,

43:07

I think my lens was more respected in

43:09

a way and a lot of people's, right?

43:11

I mean, a lot of black

43:13

trans and queer people started nonprofits in

43:15

the summer of 2020. There

43:17

was kind of a different thing going

43:19

on. So it was a weird kind of

43:22

like bittersweetness of

43:24

that era. But

43:27

you're right, I mean, I'm glad it

43:29

happened and I'm glad it

43:31

happened with the people that it did and

43:34

the work continue. And

43:36

I think at the heart of it for me,

43:39

it's not really about the institutions. And

43:41

maybe that's what I came out of

43:44

that experience understanding. You know, I've worked

43:46

in nonprofits, I've worked in

43:48

corporate media, I've worked in small town newspaper

43:51

media. Very small town newspaper. Very

43:54

small and you

43:57

know, institutions sell people, right? Regardless

43:59

of how. great the people are inside

44:01

of them. Institutions inevitably fail

44:03

us in some way. So we

44:06

have to be able to understand our

44:08

own purpose. And our

44:10

purpose, of course, not just

44:12

on an individual level, but in a

44:14

collective context, too. And sometimes,

44:18

oftentimes, that doesn't completely mesh with

44:21

the institutional experience. And that's fine,

44:23

you can still do the work

44:25

you want to do, you just

44:27

got to be a little bit

44:29

more crafty and creative and ferocious

44:31

about it. Yeah, 100%.

44:34

And I think what also your

44:36

story, and how the book ends,

44:38

I'll tell everyone, that's not how the book

44:40

ends, the book has a really beautiful ending

44:42

after this really dark time, and the ending

44:44

that I also got to be a part

44:46

of, but as a fan, and the crowd

44:48

is really, really special to me. But what

44:50

I think your story and this book reminds

44:53

me especially, is that dreams are worth dreaming, and

44:55

they're worth living. But you also have to go

44:57

back to sleep at some point, and you'll dream

44:59

a new dream. And that dream is going to

45:02

motivate you to get up and do it again

45:04

and do something else. And I think what your

45:06

book shows us is the great

45:08

dreams that we can have, and that they're,

45:10

that they're just the beginning of the next

45:12

dream. And then we can keep moving and

45:14

growing and changing. And it's never over till

45:16

it's over. So thank you, Raquel, for creating

45:18

a work that really, it touched me in

45:20

deep, deep ways outside of our friendship. I

45:22

just was so moved by

45:24

everything. Thank you. Listeners,

45:35

thank you for tuning into this week's episode

45:37

of Vibe Check. If you love the show

45:39

and want to support us, please make sure

45:41

to follow the show on your favorite podcast

45:43

listening platform. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts and leave

45:45

a review and most importantly, tell a friend.

45:48

Huge thank you to our producers Chantal

45:50

Holder, engineer Jordan Duffy, engineer

45:52

Rich Garcia, and Marcus Hump for our

45:54

theme music and sound design. Also

45:57

special thanks to our executive producers Nora Richie

45:59

at Citrus. and Brandon Sharp from Agenda

46:01

Management and Production. As

46:03

always, we want to hear from

46:05

you, so don't forget you can

46:07

email us at vivecheckatstitcher.com and keep

46:09

in touch with us on Instagram

46:11

at Sam Sanders, at Zach Staff,

46:14

and at TheFerocity. You can also

46:16

use the hashtag ViveCheckPod wherever you

46:18

use hashtags, and stay tuned for

46:20

our regular episode this Wednesday. Until

46:22

then, goodbye. We

46:29

want to take a moment to give

46:31

a big shout out to our amazing

46:33

sponsor of Hey Sis, a ViveCheck series,

46:35

Ulta Beauty. Thank you, Ulta Beauty. Ulta

46:37

Beauty is celebrating black-owned and founded brands

46:39

this month and every month. We are

46:41

so excited to be partnering with them

46:44

to bring you inspiring conversations with some

46:46

of the most brilliant people we know,

46:48

and they just happen to be brilliant

46:50

black women. Check out the feed for

46:52

more episodes throughout February and March. Head

46:55

to your local Ulta Beauty store

46:57

or visit ulta.com to shop your

46:59

favorite black-owned and founded brands. Again, big

47:01

love to Ulta Beauty for joining

47:03

us on this journey celebrating black

47:05

women and black voices.