0:03

You are listening Waiting on Reparations, a

0:05

production of I Heart Radio. Yo

0:09

Yo Yo, you

0:12

are listening to Waiting on Reparations.

0:14

My name is Dope Knife Frank, and

0:17

we're here and we're back in effect another week.

0:19

It is the second week of

0:22

Black History Month. How are you holding

0:24

up and celebrating? I'm good. So one way

0:26

I'm celebrating is um

0:29

posting. So the full archives

0:31

of the Black Panther newspaper are available

0:34

online, and so I've been posting

0:36

just pages of it, you know, with the ones with

0:38

like cool visuals as well as like descriptions

0:41

of what they contain. So today, you know, I've posted

0:43

the Black Panther ten point Program. A couple of days

0:45

ago, i posted about UM Huey

0:48

Newton UM, one

0:50

of the founders of the Black Panthers,

0:52

And so I'm just trying to my best

0:54

to like elevate the parts of black history that

0:56

people don't want to talk about because it

0:58

does not serve their political agenda, um

1:01

and things like that. So, so,

1:03

yeah, what about you. What I

1:07

have been celebrated. I mean, this is kind of like

1:09

some down the line sort of celebration.

1:12

But one of the things I'm trying to organize. I'm trying to put

1:14

together a little festival in Savannah,

1:17

like a music festival, but have

1:19

it be like a fundraiser for Stacy Abrams.

1:22

What's up? Yeah, either either

1:24

Stacy Abrams or something to do with Georgia

1:26

voting. One of the two things. I'm

1:28

just gonna focus around. I know, I know. That's

1:31

like I'm planning it to be around like

1:33

four you

1:35

know, planning it now. So it's technically my

1:37

Black History mont celebration. You know, who's

1:39

not celebrating Black history a lot of it's

1:44

not only been disinvited from the cook out,

1:47

like he's not even allowed to eat barbecue. Wait,

1:49

it was Joe Rogan ever really invited

1:51

to the cookout this whole that Yeah, when

1:54

everything was going down, it was one of those rare

1:56

occasions where I was on Twitter like

1:59

to start my day and just was

2:01

kind of vegging out on Twitter for most of the

2:04

most of the night before in the day, so like

2:06

I kind of saw all this ship

2:08

happening in real time and like for real,

2:10

like first it was the Okay, So for anybody

2:13

who doesn't know, so Joe Rogan,

2:15

one of the biggest podcasters in the world.

2:17

He hosts a show called The Joe Rogan Experience.

2:20

Back in it was it was an independent

2:22

podcast for years, crazy

2:26

millions of listeners and and subscribers,

2:29

all that whole thing you got At this point, I'm just

2:31

assuming that everybody knows who Joe Rogan and what his podcast

2:33

is. Right. So a couple of years

2:36

ago he gets a deal with Spotify

2:38

for a hundred million dollars, which now makes

2:40

him a mainstream corporate entity.

2:42

I don't give a funk what anybody says, but um,

2:46

you know, Joe Rogan's had He's

2:49

had problematic instances

2:51

in things

2:53

on his show for a while, but it's all

2:55

kind of taken ahead and come

2:57

into public eye with his COVID

3:00

disinformation that he spreads on his show, and

3:03

that led to this whole standoff with Spotify

3:05

or Spotify standing by their hundred million

3:07

dollar investment. But you've got artists like

3:09

Neil Young and Jody Mitchell and others who

3:12

were taking their music off the platform and effort

3:14

to not be associated with the COVID

3:16

misinformation. But uh

3:19

SCAD graduate Savannah College of Art

3:21

and Design graduate and Grammy Award

3:23

winning artists India Iri Sook

3:26

to her Instagram to kind of point out something

3:28

that I in particular had been

3:31

pointing out about Joe Rogan just amongst my

3:33

friends and stuff like that in personal conversation for

3:35

years now, which is a lot of the

3:37

racist quasi Nazi ship

3:39

that goes on on the Joe Rogan podcast.

3:42

It's dispersed enough that

3:45

you know, you could watch ten

3:47

episodes in a row and not encounter

3:49

it. But when it's there, it's

3:52

there, and it's they're pretty strong and indie. A re

3:54

started off by running a montage Joe

3:56

Rogan using the N word that

3:58

was followed up by a joke that

4:01

he told about going to a black neighborhood

4:03

in Philly to see the movie Planet of the Apes

4:05

and a commentary about how the

4:07

all black crowd was like the Planet of the Apes,

4:10

and so on and so forth. Joe Rogan issued

4:12

an apology um

4:15

for all of the cries of cancel culture, there's not

4:17

really any cancelation going

4:19

on Spotify standing by him saying

4:21

that silencing is not the way to handle

4:24

it. Um. But for the most part,

4:26

it's it's just illuminated

4:29

this particular aspect

4:31

of the Joe Rogan Show for the general public

4:33

for normans who weren't really paying attention, whether

4:35

they are supporters of his or detractors.

4:38

So, um, that is the situation

4:41

as it stands. Like I said, there's not really

4:43

any consequence to be

4:45

taken out of it except for his

4:47

apology and that,

4:50

you know, the opinions are

4:52

now you know, it seems like the opinions

4:54

are now solidly formed. You know, you've

4:56

either got the people who are like, oh, I don't think

4:58

that's a big deal, or you've got the people who are

5:00

like, hey, this is what I've been saying. Joe

5:03

Rogan has been on this ship for a long time.

5:05

And then you've got a bunch of regular

5:08

people who are now either oh, I didn't know

5:10

Joe Rogan was like that funk that guy, or

5:13

you know, the opposite swing of that

5:15

pendulum. I didn't know Joe Rogan was like that.

5:17

Awesome, I'm with it. So,

5:20

so, what have you been thinking of this

5:22

whole thing, whatever, however much

5:24

of it you've been consuming. Yeah, I mean I've long

5:26

been skeptical of Joe Rogan and like

5:29

the Joe Rogan too like crypto fascist

5:31

pipeline um sort of

5:34

veiled in the fact that he does have many

5:37

different kinds of people on his show, his

5:39

platforming of folks like Stephen

5:41

Wilno, like um,

5:44

even Elon Muskle's just like Notisanapolis

5:50

and only know of him because of It's

5:53

interesting to me that this hadn't come come

5:55

out earlier, Like, you know,

5:57

if people are watching his podcast religiously

6:00

and he has this, you know, a million strong fan

6:02

base, how did no one bring

6:04

up before now that there were a hundred

6:06

and eleven podcast where he used

6:08

a racial slurn, which I

6:11

then think, yeah, okay,

6:14

um, yeah, no, that's all I said

6:16

right now. Well, I mean, um,

6:19

okay. So one of the biggest

6:21

reason why I think it's

6:24

not even necessary that people didn't notice, but

6:26

he wasn't like mainstream then

6:29

as big and popular as his podcast was.

6:31

I think having that

6:34

Spotify corporate stamp, Fortune

6:36

five hundred stamp on it, it now makes

6:38

all of that stuff, you know, um

6:42

issue for him because beforehand, I

6:44

mean, for example, the

6:49

the video of him telling the Planet of the Apes

6:51

joke. I saw that shipped back in surprisingly,

6:56

do you know who put that out? Alex Jones

6:58

was the one who first put that out. Him and Joe Rogan.

7:00

We're beefing. Alex Jones was like, all

7:02

right, well, if me and Joe Rogan is not gonna have the other

7:05

show. Everybody thinks he's so cool,

7:07

he's got a black daughter, and listen to what he says about

7:09

black people. And then that happened in the

7:12

summer of nineteen, you

7:14

know, and that's something like you see it and

7:16

you you know, a it was getting posted

7:18

around, but it doesn't really matter because

7:20

ultimately it's just this dude's podcast

7:22

in his basement or in a spare

7:25

room in his house that he's doing on his own. So

7:27

there is no when you don't have

7:29

like when there's no corporate entity to pressure

7:33

you know about it, then

7:36

I don't know, I think it can easily

7:38

slip through the right you got. You gotta

7:40

go after the money. You can't just criticize

7:42

Joe Rogan for what he does. Anybody

7:44

in the basement can do what he does. You

7:47

like he has. He has the prominence

7:49

that he does because he has the backing of Spotify. It's the

7:51

backing of huge corporations, right, and

7:53

so you gotta go after the money. That makes you think of

7:55

like with the stop Pop City Um

7:58

struggle down here in Atlanta. Uh,

8:00

like when they weren't getting anywhere at Atlanta City Council,

8:02

they started going for the people that were funding the Atlanta

8:04

Police Foundation, so um,

8:06

Coca cola, um, other

8:09

organizations. Or even if you want to think about the voter suppression

8:11

bill that passed in the

8:14

state legislature. Here, I guess sometime last

8:16

year, folks are going after Delta and

8:18

all of these other corporations that were like, oh,

8:21

black Lives Matter or whatever, and then you know, bankrolling

8:23

Republican campaigns to the tune of hundreds

8:26

of thousands of dollars. And so

8:28

another thing that rises it raises for me is

8:30

like how unfortunate it is but necessary

8:32

to like bring their receipts. Like everyone knew he

8:34

was shitty for a long time. It took

8:36

like a comprehensive compilation of all the

8:38

reasons why and like here

8:41

are the links for people to be like, you have

8:43

a pretty strong case. I see that over

8:45

and over again with like anecdotal evidence

8:47

versus pulling like the actual receipts

8:49

in a lot of organizing spaces where it's like

8:51

people are telling you something's wrong, but until

8:54

you find like the archival data

8:56

where like the segregationist

8:58

senator was conspiring to destroy their neighborhood.

9:01

Like that's when you finally like, all right, I guess I'll

9:03

do something about it. So that also strikes me as really

9:05

funny about the circumstances that, right, well,

9:08

um, you know, we'll have to expand

9:11

on this because it's it's uh, it's

9:13

opened up, you know, further conversation

9:16

about um censorship

9:19

and what is censorship versus

9:21

what isn't? Should Joe Rogan be silence?

9:23

Should he be removed from the platform,

9:26

And I definitely do want to dive into

9:28

this stuff. We were also we're supposed

9:30

to talk about the NFL

9:33

coaching situation, but I think we'll save that for another

9:35

day too. But I mean, you

9:37

know, before we go into what we're talking

9:39

about for the day, I do just want to touch

9:42

on that one subject. It's just if

9:45

the only thing that existed

9:47

in this situation was the

9:49

compilation of the

9:51

N word, I

9:53

don't think it would be that big of a deal.

9:56

And just me personally well

9:58

to the problem, I mean, because here's the thing, right,

10:01

is like he

10:04

gave an explanation for the

10:06

N word compilation in terms of like, oh,

10:08

well, this was me using it as a quote,

10:10

and I was using I was recalling it in the story.

10:14

Now for me personally, it's really

10:16

not that complicated. There's twenty three n words

10:18

in there, and he gave like three examples

10:20

of him, you know, quoting it that it's like, all

10:23

right, I'm gonna need to see like a detailed breakdown

10:25

of like how each of these was a quote. But

10:27

besides the point, if just for the benefit

10:29

of doubt, all of those where he's quoting a story,

10:32

he's telling a story or something like that. I

10:35

mean, it makes me still not like Joe

10:37

Rogan, but it makes me ultimately not really

10:40

like you know what I'm saying. It's like, oh yeah, I wasn't listening to that show

10:42

anyway, you know what I'm saying. Well,

10:45

but I think the aspects of like

10:47

the jokes, and then when

10:49

you further do even deeper digging and you

10:52

look into the type of people that he's platformed,

10:55

that is that's the aspect and the element

10:57

of it to me, that is like all right, now this

10:59

is still you know, sensor

11:02

removed, that's still like a subject

11:05

for discussion, But that

11:07

is the aspect of Joe Rogan that is like, oh,

11:09

no, this is serious

11:11

now because like you know, you

11:14

can, you can say whatever should you

11:16

want. I don't care. It doesn't have to affect me. I don't have

11:18

to listen to it. But if you're like luring

11:21

people unsuspecting people in by

11:23

like, hey, we're interviewing m

11:25

M a guy, a comedian, a nuclear

11:28

physicist, a white supremacist, you

11:30

know what I mean, And you're doing that cycle over and over

11:32

again. And I mean I've I've

11:34

have people personally in my life who otherwise

11:37

are like normal, well adjusted left leaning

11:39

people that have fallen down the Joe Rogan

11:41

crypto fashionst pipeline. It's very easy,

11:44

it's not difficult at all. Well, I think it

11:46

speaks to the fact that the left has to get better at

11:48

its media game. Um,

11:51

like you know, we need to we have to win the conversation.

11:53

We can't just say oh, um,

11:56

like you, I guess

11:59

to a degree, like you shouldn't have these people on,

12:01

like I like, I don't think he should, but

12:03

I think i'd rather than like sensor him. I think we just

12:06

need to do a better job of convincing people

12:08

and creating our own pipeline to like liberatory

12:11

ideas because otherwise if this is all we

12:13

have, and it's like all you have is Joe Rogan

12:16

as like a huge name in podcasting,

12:18

like that's partially our failure.

12:21

That's true, that's true, but it's not even

12:24

you know, just personally, I don't know what anybody else thinks.

12:26

For me, it's not even the platforming like

12:29

people that I check out, like Vosh who's

12:31

a YouTuber, YouTube, twitch,

12:34

political streamer, or um

12:37

even what is Homie's name? Who got

12:40

fired from CNN's

12:42

Quomo Andrew Quomo, one of the quotma no

12:44

no, no no um black dude,

12:46

he was a commentation Mark

12:49

Lamont Hill. Mark Lamont Hill on his channel,

12:52

he's always talking to right

12:54

wingers in like these fringe like

12:57

you know, quasi alt right figures who are spewing

12:59

their ship. The difference is how you

13:01

go about it. If Mark Lamont Hill sits

13:04

across from somebody and the person says,

13:07

he, you know, black people have an

13:09

intrinsic violent gene that makes

13:11

them more violent than the other races. That's

13:14

interesting. Oh dude, really,

13:16

dude, bros, that word dude

13:18

like that, you know that's not gonna be Vosh is

13:20

going to like push back like there's ways that you

13:23

can do it where it becomes

13:25

a straw man to be like, oh, you want a silence,

13:27

you don't want people to be platformed. You're afraid of discussion,

13:30

you're afraid of debate, and it's like how

13:33

you engage with them? Yeah, if you're engaging

13:35

critically, actually have to engage

13:38

like like like for people

13:40

to want for the Joe

13:42

Rogan stands out there, a

13:45

lot of whom are straight up Nazis

13:48

and a lot of whom are just like people

13:50

who don't give a funk about issues like this and

13:52

stuff like that. But if they if they

13:54

don't want people to jump to

13:56

the conclusion of yo,

14:00

I heard Joe Rogan said this, so I think this about

14:02

him and everything that he is, then you

14:05

know it probably would have behooved Joe Rogan

14:07

over these years if like he could counter

14:09

with clips of him passionately going

14:11

back at like some of these guests that he

14:13

has has on his show, because he shouldn't

14:15

be interacting with my Unapolis

14:18

the same way as he does with Cornel West

14:20

if I'm supposed to think that he's cool, yeah,

14:23

or even just yeah, this like engaging

14:25

critically with both of them

14:28

like instead of just being huh, that's interesting, Oh

14:30

black people skulls are like con

14:32

cave and commend

14:35

whatever. Commended. But that's not racist. I have

14:38

supported Bernie, supported by you

14:40

know, yeah you said you might vote for him once whatever

14:43

the other thing you want to bring up about Joe Rogan, And

14:45

like I like to be hyperbolic sometimes

14:47

because it's more entertaining. Um, Like

14:50

there's a level of like almost stochastic

14:52

terrorism that comes with uh,

14:55

COVID misinformation. Um.

14:57

And so like just a couple of days ago January,

15:01

a big fan of his and friend who

15:03

was you know, talking about his show all the time

15:06

on his Instagram, UM, comedian Christian

15:08

Cabrera UM died

15:10

of COVID, you know, and often

15:12

talked in conjunction with you

15:14

know, loving Joe Rogan about like vaccine

15:18

hesitancy and um it's also

15:20

you know, spread a lot of Joe Rogan's vaccine

15:22

and misinformation. And now this person

15:24

is dead and so like he's a famous person,

15:27

you know, he's a comedian, but how many other people

15:29

who watched his show also

15:31

We're like maybe that is sketchy and like are

15:34

dead now we don't know, we don't have those numbers,

15:37

whether you want to call that murder

15:39

or whatever, whatever. I don't

15:41

think that it's even debatable that

15:43

that has happened. No, it's

15:46

not even debatable. It's just like there's there's no

15:48

way to know the impact negatively

15:52

in a very literal, concrete way. But um,

15:55

we have a great on about

15:57

Joe Rogan for a while, So why don't we talk about

16:00

like white people that don't suck? So

16:02

Yeah, this week we had the honor to interview

16:05

Joan and Loki Moholland Um.

16:07

Joan Um was a freedom

16:09

writer, UM whose mug shot was

16:11

called one of the most iconic and American history.

16:14

UM. She Um, at

16:16

the age of twenty three, had participated in

16:18

over fifty sent ins and demonstrations

16:20

like the Freedom Rights the Jackson

16:23

Woolwrith set in the marchin Washington,

16:25

and Um, you know, knew some of the biggest

16:28

names in the civil rights movement, from Mega

16:30

Evans, Mega Evans, Fanny

16:32

lew Haymer, John Lewis, Julian Bond.

16:35

And so we'll be speaking with her as well as her

16:38

son, who

16:40

has recently made a documentary

16:43

about her called an Ordinary Hero. Yeah,

16:46

and he's the executive director of the Joan

16:48

Moholland Foundation. Um

16:51

has actually directed um Sello documentaries

16:54

and Um wrote a book She

16:56

Stood for Freedom, Um,

16:58

which was nominated for a war. So they're

17:00

both very involved into this

17:02

day in civil rights struggle in their own different

17:05

ways. And the somewhat details what we're

17:07

talking about with regards to art

17:09

and the role of you know, shaping the

17:11

political discourse in the sense that, like Joe

17:13

Rogans over here, it's kind as podcast, which itself

17:16

is a form of media that is shaping the political

17:18

discourse, and Um Loki,

17:20

especially as a filmmaker, is doing

17:22

the same with his work. And we have a lot of discussion

17:25

in the interview about the role of arts

17:27

in movement making. So without further

17:29

ado, let's get on into it. We'll

17:32

be right back with that after the jump. So

17:40

today I am super honored to be joined

17:43

by Joan and Loki Muholland.

17:45

I will let them introduce themselves in their own

17:47

words, because the breadth of experience

17:49

they bring with them is kind

17:51

of impressive. It's sort of like, yeah, there's

17:53

a lot, there's a lot going on there, but yeah, whoever,

17:56

like to start tell us a little bit about yourselves

17:58

and what y'all do. Go on,

18:00

boy, I was gonna say ladies first,

18:03

but well,

18:05

my name is Loki maholl Um,

18:07

I'm Jones's son. Um, I'm

18:09

a filmmaker, activins author,

18:12

and uh yeah,

18:15

we see you represent over there. Yeah,

18:18

Joan Mahaland I'm Loki's mama.

18:21

And Loki was after the Norse god

18:23

of mischief or sidekick, and

18:26

he's lived up to it. Um,

18:29

I'm a Delta. I got

18:31

into a lot of good trouble back in the day,

18:33

and you

18:37

know, freedom writer and all that sort of stuff.

18:40

Good, Yeah you are. You knew a lot

18:42

of folks that people may recognize

18:44

when you know we're studying

18:47

the history of the civil rights movement. Um,

18:50

Mr Evers, Danniel Hammer play

18:52

people like that. It's Fannie Hammer

18:54

Hamer. Oh my god. If I've been saying that around my whole

18:57

life. See, this is what we need better civics

18:59

and lack history education in schools. Because

19:02

I'm growing up, I've taught myself most

19:04

well. I feel like most of what I know as an adult,

19:07

like you know, reading online, reading

19:09

books, etcetera. Because they don't really teach you

19:11

what you need to know in school. Unfortunately, word

19:15

was, you know, the slaves were happy and

19:17

the slave masters were kind. Yeah.

19:19

I actually have a friend who is a professor at um

19:22

University in Hartford who studies how

19:24

even back to like slavery

19:27

texts from like ancient Greece, the way

19:29

that like the happy slave narrative was even

19:31

a thing then, and like how that

19:33

then, you know, factors into the way people

19:35

sometimes use classics, like in

19:37

white supremacist movements to say like, oh, the

19:39

purity of the Western tradition.

19:42

But yeah, like unless you unless

19:44

you really teach yourself, um,

19:46

you can, yeah, get stuck with some

19:48

of these. Oh that's interesting back

19:51

to the ancient Greeks because when

19:53

we had standardized testing,

19:56

I think it's pretty much out now in Virginia. But

19:58

one of the questions for the kids his foot,

20:01

what did we get from the Greeks? And

20:03

you were supposed to say, you know, democracy,

20:06

voting rights, stuff like that. I

20:09

said, no, no no, no, that's that's all. We

20:11

got voting rights for

20:14

free property owning white

20:16

men. Precisely, we got some

20:18

highways. Yeah,

20:21

maybe some like column shapes, you

20:24

know, like some art,

20:26

but yeah, we're still trying to get voting rise today.

20:28

And what I'm saying, so, um, well,

20:30

I'm really really excited to have you all here today.

20:32

Particularly I'm super interested in the

20:35

way that movement work manifests

20:38

in the various different kinds of things

20:40

you do. And also we've got two generations

20:42

of people here. Um, we're doing

20:45

the good work. UM.

20:47

And I think that like the idea of intergenerational

20:50

like liberation movement struggle

20:53

is not when we talk about enough like they got

20:55

the young kids out here, like the Sunrise

20:57

Movement or etcetera.

21:00

And then we study you know, civil rights

21:02

history um as if it you know,

21:04

would happened long ago, and like we don't need to be

21:06

marching um anymore things

21:09

like that. So, um,

21:11

how do you see your work from two different

21:13

generations overlapping

21:15

or diverging at certain points? Well,

21:18

I say my generation got rid

21:20

of the segregation laws underlying

21:24

racism. It's still there and that's what folks

21:27

need to work on. Now. Um.

21:30

We marched, we sat in, we

21:33

went to jail, um,

21:36

you know things like that. We

21:38

could sing real good, except for me, I

21:40

couldn't carry a tune in a bucket.

21:43

That the Jackson, Mississippi. The joke we

21:45

had a little joke in the movement that

21:48

if the police were marching on us, they

21:51

just pushed Joan to the front and

21:54

she would sing loudly right in their

21:56

face and they would back off because

21:58

I say, Okay, what

22:01

is that? Yeah, yeah, backup,

22:04

But you're a singer two on top

22:06

of everything logy yeah, yeah,

22:09

yeah, play guitar on Hey.

22:14

Well, maybe we'll come back to the question about like generational

22:18

differences, because we're kind of starting to talk about art.

22:20

And that's something that I don't understand.

22:22

I don't know a lot about from my studying of like

22:25

civil rights and like other liberation movements,

22:27

is like what the role of art was

22:29

during that era? Looky, you know, brilliant

22:32

filmmaker and as I as a hip

22:34

hop artist, see the potential for use of that

22:36

um too spread stories

22:39

that bring people into the movement and educate

22:41

people, etcetera. UM. But Joan,

22:43

like, what what role did like music

22:46

and film and art and stuff like that play

22:48

in in your time? Well, film want

22:50

a big deal, except you know, watching the evening

22:53

news on TV and

22:55

UM singing. That

22:57

was the backbone of the movement. That is what gave

23:00

us strength and courage to keep

23:02

on keeping on mhm um

23:06

it was you know, songs that

23:08

were sort of adapted from the church songs

23:11

and it's it's it sounded

23:13

if you weren't listening to the words like you were in

23:15

church when we had

23:17

these Yankees coming down and

23:19

you know, they were good people, but they

23:21

sang like they were on a picket line, a

23:24

Union picket line, yeah,

23:26

which they didn't have a sing.

23:30

Art. Well, you needed art for posters

23:32

and picket signs and things like that.

23:35

So that was sort of where it was at. And

23:37

so, um, Loki today working

23:39

in film and you know, a

23:41

variety of media. Honestly, Um,

23:43

what do you see as the role of art in

23:46

movement making today? Well, I mean,

23:48

and I want to kind of um

23:50

like what my mom says, but roll back a little bit further,

23:52

because obviously art was used even um

23:55

during the time of slavery. Yeah, absolutely

23:58

used to give direction and how to get north. Artistry

24:02

that went into quilts. Um,

24:05

the literature was a key

24:07

component. And oh gosh,

24:09

and the abolitionist movement. Yeah,

24:10

yeah, you know, so those those sort of things,

24:13

and it continued. I mean obviously during my mom's time,

24:15

I mean, film was used as well.

24:18

Um, the

24:21

a lot of times that was you the documentary. It's

24:24

not like it is today when we have so much more access

24:26

to that. It was more underground. Um.

24:29

But that was that burgeoning movement of

24:31

art to really kind of push

24:33

forward these ideals, um,

24:36

and these and these alternative narratives to the

24:38

prescribed history that was taught in our textbooks

24:40

and as what we're seeing today as well, UM,

24:43

and continuously obviously, UM,

24:46

you know during the eighties and nineties in

24:48

particular, you know, with public Enemy in

24:50

w A and so forth. I mean all

24:52

of that. Um, those scenes

24:54

were just these narratives that people hadn't heard

24:57

before. You know, when

24:59

I say people, I mean America. So they

25:01

control the media pretty much. Um,

25:03

the photographers, with the press, they

25:07

were powerful. I say, you

25:10

take it to the lunch counter, the lawyers

25:12

take it to the court, but the press takes

25:14

it to the world. And when things will start

25:17

flying, the press was in

25:19

every bit as much danger as the demonstrators,

25:22

and sometimes they were the first ones attacked.

25:25

So the picture of the Jacks and Woolworths

25:28

sit in which I'm sure you've seen what I'm having

25:30

sugar dumped on my head, as

25:33

I like to say, like I wasn't sweet enough already,

25:36

but that went

25:39

worldwide. It was colorized. Color

25:41

was added to the black and white. They

25:43

didn't have color photography

25:46

and the presdent. But in the Paris

25:48

Match front page

25:50

above the centerfold, the most powerful

25:52

place in the newspaper. And this was

25:54

the most powerful newspaper in Europe.

25:57

It was like the New York Times. So

25:59

that you know. Went and

26:01

when I was in South

26:03

Africa, um a few

26:06

years ago, thinking of the music

26:09

um

26:11

down in Cape Town, a bunch of US

26:13

ladies went to um A

26:15

school for a morning of volunteer work

26:17

and I ended up since I used

26:20

to work in the schools up here. Um

26:23

well, I was up from Georgia. You know, it's

26:25

still down south and Arlington Commany

26:28

Lee's hometown. But um

26:31

we told the students what we had, what

26:33

we did back in the States. We had Q and

26:35

A, and then we had our closing statement, and

26:38

I said, back

26:41

in the days of our civil rights movement,

26:43

we had a song we shall overcome.

26:46

Now. My intention was to say,

26:48

whatever difficulty you're facing

26:50

in life, tell yourself those three

26:52

words and things will get better. No,

26:55

I got cut right off by the school

26:57

teacher. This is a room packed with fourth graders

27:00

and he said, oh, we sang that song

27:02

in our partid demonstrations class.

27:05

Let's all sing it together. So

27:08

there I was, over fifty

27:10

years since our civil

27:12

rights you know, the student civil rights movement,

27:15

singing we Shall Overcome in

27:18

Cape Town, South Africa, in the room

27:21

packed with fourth or fifth

27:23

graders, and it just about brought me to tears.

27:25

So it traveled. Yeah.

27:28

I think about that. I think about as

27:31

I said previously, about the

27:33

public enemy and w A I mean Spike Lee

27:36

Yea works and these messages that were putting

27:38

forth that uh, why America

27:41

hadn't heard and didn't really to understand or

27:43

want to understand. And if you

27:45

go back and and I

27:47

mean it was almost it's like a

27:49

canary in the mind sort of thing. I

27:52

was like, wow, I mean all

27:54

of that has come to pass. And then some yeah,

27:58

aldy today you know what's uh,

28:00

you know the the my mom was talking about

28:02

the press and the cameras and stuff. Obviously

28:04

the quickest way to censor that was his bash a camera.

28:07

I'm about the film which they did,

28:09

which they did, and today we have you know,

28:11

those those other techniques now of

28:13

of of blocking channels and or

28:17

streams on social media and so

28:19

forth saying you know this this content

28:21

is offensive or whatever else and being these filters

28:24

now. Um, so they did

28:26

that with the Evening News and get h

28:29

Yeah, that's right. Difficulties

28:33

Uh yeah, like ever speech.

28:36

Um, I just think about like, you know,

28:38

these these new opportunities that exist

28:40

like TikTok and so forth. That's that

28:43

is a very quick way to

28:45

get the message across and how people

28:47

are learning. Yeah, no, I mean there's still space

28:49

for longer formats and so forth, and

28:51

obviously the tools that are there to share those

28:53

messages. Probably part

28:56

of the pitfall of that is so much disinformation

28:58

that gets out there, um, the lack

29:01

of research, the lack of study, the lack of

29:03

understanding and context and so forth. So

29:05

there's and then obviously the immediate feedback

29:08

that you get from people who

29:10

and the bombing, you know, the trolling and so forth

29:12

that takes place media

29:14

to just kind of discredit and

29:17

take people down rabbit holes away from

29:19

the core message. Someone

29:22

I did a post this the other day about a

29:25

mere luck I took nine

29:27

seconds, and someone said, well, it's actually a six second

29:29

because there was a wait for three of them, like Okay,

29:33

okay, right exactly, yeah, yeah, the way

29:35

people parts details to de legitimize,

29:37

like very real thing. Oh,

29:41

we used humor also in the movement.

29:43

If your mama ever told

29:45

you not to drink coffee because

29:48

it would turn you black, you know, back and back

29:50

in the days before black was beautiful, I

29:53

am living proof that it ain't.

29:55

So mama probably

29:57

just wanted all that coffee for her so self.

30:00

Yeah, she could have probably used some of

30:02

that sugar they dumped on you though, So you know,

30:04

sweeten up a little bit. But

30:08

I think you started to get into my next question.

30:10

Looky, it's about um. I mean, we've

30:12

spoken really to two parts of it. I'm

30:14

really interested in the way you

30:17

sort of describe the long history of

30:19

the arts in various movements, highlighting

30:21

the way that even the abolitionist movement

30:23

for the abolition of slavery, you know, literature

30:26

and songs were so critical. Um.

30:29

And so I'm curious, you know, sticking

30:31

to this theme of intergenerational struggle,

30:34

UM, what parts do you see

30:36

yourself carrying forward from previous

30:39

movements having been very um,

30:42

I guess in meshed in its history

30:45

growing up with Joan and what sorts of

30:47

new things. I mean, you mentioned TikTok already, but

30:49

what are some of the differences that you try to lean

30:51

into in your modern day work. Um,

30:54

there's so much differences. For

30:57

me, it's, um,

30:59

you know, I've I've been asked

31:01

repeatedly what I have set the lunch counter, And

31:05

I'm like, yeah, I don't know if I would have, but

31:07

I don't have to because my mother already did

31:09

this kind of Yeah, those different there's like

31:12

things like that, yeah, yeah, yeah, And

31:14

and it really it's we all

31:16

have a role to play. Not everyone could set the lunch

31:18

counters. Not everyone this position.

31:21

Uh, there was threats for on families,

31:23

you know, they could lose their tuition all these different

31:26

jobs, or houses be bombed and whatever else.

31:28

Um. And and some people

31:31

you know this, they just weren't at that place

31:33

at that time, you know. And and

31:35

so they found other ways to contribute. Um.

31:38

So I use the gifts that I've been given

31:42

to you move that work forward,

31:44

move that message forward, and to highlight

31:46

the history. At the end of the day.

31:49

Um, whether we're gonna go back to abolitionists or

31:51

civil rights movement or any sort of movement,

31:53

it really comes down to that

31:55

one on one opportunity

31:58

of seeing those individuals, seeing

32:00

those people sitting at the lunch counter, that

32:02

you have to actually confront it. It's right

32:04

there in front of you that you just can't

32:06

replicate in a film or

32:08

or you know, the photograph or anything yeah

32:12

yeah, or rap song. It just becomes

32:15

those The art becomes a way to motivate

32:17

people, um, you know, to inspire,

32:19

to inform, But really it's

32:21

to do all that to get you down

32:24

to those lunch counters, on the buses

32:26

or in the streets. Carrying the signs

32:29

and putting forth that message to move things

32:32

forward and designing a petition

32:34

online is not you know, really

32:38

bringing about a big change. It's just making

32:40

you feel good. Mm hmm.

32:42

Yeah. I had post a TikTok

32:44

earlier about getting off Twitter

32:47

and like getting in the streets, whether

32:49

that's knocking on your neighbor's doors or marching

32:51

or go into city hall, whatever you gotta do. Um,

32:54

but yeah, I like the idea of everyone having their role to play.

32:57

That kind of makes me rethink my

32:59

question and a lot of the things we need

33:01

to do are the same, and that like certain people

33:03

put their bodies online, certain people's are documenting

33:06

it. It's really about folks finding

33:08

the intersection of their passion

33:11

and what the gifts they're given with the tools

33:13

that are available at the time. So now we do have TikTok

33:15

and Instagram to like make sure those images

33:18

of protests are circulated. Um,

33:21

so it's the same kind of project, just new

33:23

tools. Yeah, and and and and you

33:26

know, I mean we're in a capital society. Money

33:28

makes the world turn. I mean you had people, um,

33:31

beyond the Harry Belafontes of the world. You

33:34

had actually white

33:37

women whose husbands were probably either in the

33:39

clan or in the White

33:41

Citizens Council and Jackson who

33:44

were giving money to the Mays,

33:46

to the help Right to give

33:48

back to Medgarrever's office. They knew they

33:50

couldn't give it directly, so they would sneak it in. And

33:52

this is this is known. There was a gentleman's

33:55

great story. He um,

33:57

his gift was robbing jewelry stores.

33:59

Hey, whatever, that's what you got.

34:02

He would time out the train and how long it

34:04

would take the police to get to the jewelry store,

34:07

rob the store, hopped the train, go the next town, sell

34:09

the goods to rent some repeat, and

34:11

that money went back to the act. Now

34:13

they had no idea where it was coming from.

34:16

They did, they might be like, yeah,

34:19

that's amazing, but yeah, I mean, hey,

34:22

you use the gifts you've been given the

34:26

stores and selling the goods for money. But obviously, yeah,

34:29

I could use being white to the advantage

34:32

of the movement. Could um

34:34

blend into the crowd and be an observer

34:37

of what was happening. I

34:39

could At Glen Echo Amusement

34:41

Park just over in Maryland,

34:45

I could go in and buy tickets. And

34:47

I heard it buy me to have a ticket for each ride

34:50

you got on, ticket

34:52

in hand, and I could go back out

34:54

and hand him out from the Howard students who

34:56

popped on the Merry Go Round ticket in hand

34:59

and got arrested. What were the passes

35:01

that you gave me when I was a two

35:03

blue student. I went

35:06

up to the state legislature and

35:08

got a handful of passes

35:10

to you know, sit in the galleries and

35:13

watch the legislature debate things.

35:16

Went back, gave those to Mega and he handed

35:18

him out to the most prominent

35:20

black ministers he could find,

35:23

and they got arrested. Gallery

35:25

pass in hand, m hm. And

35:29

by the next day the law had changed

35:31

you had to personally get your pass

35:34

from your representatives, but

35:37

there would a number of times just being

35:39

white could be used to the

35:41

advantage of the movement. So you

35:43

got to use what you got. Yeah. Yeah,

35:46

And I think people are still waking up to that today

35:48

of thinking about how I mean broadly

35:50

people say use your privilege, etcetera. But the

35:53

specific ways for us, like, yeah,

35:56

use use your whiteness to like get

35:58

in those spaces where others can um

36:01

and things like that I'm doing. I had one question

36:03

for you, So we talked a little bit about what Loki takes

36:05

from movements before. But I was

36:07

wondering if there's anything that young

36:10

movement makers are doing today that you

36:12

find interesting or inspiring. Well,

36:15

I find the complete diversity

36:18

of the crowds and the marches, to

36:21

say nothing of the size of the crowds

36:23

and the marches. But I think you've

36:26

got a much you know, like a no majority

36:29

massive demonstration. Um,

36:32

we didn't have that. We had just a handful

36:35

of Wie or Hispanic or Asian folks

36:37

in our activities and

36:41

marches. Um, well,

36:43

we didn't have so many marches because

36:45

you all get arrested. Um

36:48

before we got down the block before and

36:52

the police are even joining the marchers

36:54

and protesters

36:56

with them, mailing to pray with them,

36:59

if just for those my mind. Um,

37:01

that makes me think as well about

37:04

talking about like then and now that and now so at the

37:06

time, from my understanding, and correct me if

37:08

I'm wrong, Jones, it seemed like a lot of folks

37:10

that took part in the civil rights movement were somewhat

37:13

demonized. I saw recently

37:15

a comic from I think the Birmingham

37:17

News where they were painting MLK

37:20

as UM starting riots

37:22

even though non violence was the core of the movement.

37:24

And then yet today the

37:26

same people that are disrupting

37:29

modern movements sending the National Garden

37:31

when folks are marching and tear gassing folks

37:34

are heralding um civil

37:36

rights movement leaders at the same time.

37:39

And so I was wondering what you both make of trends

37:42

like that where you see a sort

37:44

of contradiction in the way folks um

37:47

treat both historic

37:49

and modern civil rights movements. Yeah,

37:51

well, I mean immediately comes

37:54

to mind as someone like Ted Cruise, who in one

37:56

breath will praise quote

37:58

doctor King and his convenie and then

38:00

say that appointing a you know, even

38:03

the idea of appointing a black woman is an

38:05

affront to an insult

38:07

to black women, and uh,

38:09

you know, and inequality, which

38:12

it was just absurd to begin with, like he cares

38:15

um. But yeah, you

38:17

know Dr King when he when he was killed, study

38:20

percent of white America you know, didn't like

38:22

him, if you holes and stuff. But now

38:24

you know, it's it's weaponizing Dr

38:27

King to push forward. Uh

38:29

you know these agendas of like you know, anti CRT,

38:32

which of course not taught taught in school

38:35

is not even a Yeah, it's a whole thing

38:37

to roll back, you know, the narrative that they

38:39

feel uncomfortable with. Um

38:42

because then and and quite frankly don't even

38:44

understand. Yeah, it's it's

38:46

it's a fascinating thing. Um

38:49

do you do you even contemplate? But

38:52

uh, that's that's where it's so vital for the rest

38:54

of us to be informed. And

38:57

and I when I have people who quote Dr

38:59

King like that, like, hey, yes, that's wonderful. What

39:01

about the rest of his speech? Yeah, do you know any

39:03

words after the first seven Well

39:06

do you know the words that you said before that? Oh? Yeah,

39:08

yeah, everything before that was about reparations

39:12

I mean, let's talk about that for a moment. It's talking

39:14

about that. Let's talk about you know, a federal job guarantee.

39:16

Let's talk about the evils

39:18

of capitalism and militarism. Nobody

39:20

wants to get into that. But John, from your

39:22

perspective, having lived through that and seeing the way

39:24

that people treat it today, what is that like

39:27

for you? Um? Aside

39:29

from comical, Um,

39:32

they want to idealize of what

39:35

we did and we

39:37

were not perfectly made

39:40

mistakes. Um,

39:42

there are things we could have done better. Um,

39:45

all that, But um,

39:48

they want to use us as you know that we

39:50

did it all and they don't need to do

39:52

anything, and they need to look

39:54

deeper. I mean, like I said, we took

39:56

care of the laws for

39:59

segregation, but there is so much

40:01

more the racism behind,

40:04

and then the forms

40:06

that the racism takes. Um.

40:10

Housing, Yeah, whose

40:13

neighborhood does the interstate care up?

40:16

Where does the school money go? It's

40:19

not you know that some schools get

40:21

hand me downs anymore like

40:23

it used to be. But certainly,

40:26

um, they say, you know, I'm

40:29

in Arlington, and they say South Arlington

40:31

gets the least and North Arlington gets

40:33

the most because the rich folks

40:35

lived there in the power base. But

40:37

um, it doesn't need to be that

40:40

way. Discrimination against

40:42

people because of their first language, um,

40:45

their ethnic origins, their

40:48

religion, all that stuff.

40:51

I was impressed a few years ago

40:53

when the anti

40:56

Muslim thing got going that

40:58

college kids, girls and

41:01

some places, we're walking

41:03

around with their classmates

41:07

wearing his jobs, just like the classmates

41:09

were. But there are lots of ways

41:12

to show solidarity. There's

41:14

lots more forms of discrimination

41:16

that we now recognize. And part

41:18

of that comes to mind as well, is how

41:21

we you know, so part of it is like Dr

41:23

King was a comedy, right, all that sort of stuff.

41:26

It's like the Washington football team will

41:28

now be hailed to their and

41:30

I didn't think about that. I love that it's funny,

41:33

but um, you know, so

41:35

so those sames, those same terms

41:37

are thrown around. They don't even know what they mean. But

41:40

um, I think what's really fascinating

41:42

is there's part of this element of

41:45

the civil rights movements kind of safe to talk

41:47

about. Well you don't talk about

41:50

why it happened, of course, but there's

41:52

this, you know, the sort of glorification if

41:54

you will. You know, there's the freedom writers

41:56

and the sit ins and all this, you know, John Lewis

41:59

and the other impettish Ridge and Dr King. I had

42:01

a dream all that sort of stuff because

42:03

it means hey problem

42:06

solved. And I actually did a TikTok video

42:08

on this recently, just talking about you know what

42:10

scares um white

42:12

America about teaching history is that it's

42:14

there. It's it's their own history. Because

42:17

my age, when I was in elementary

42:20

school, Dr King had only been killed,

42:22

you know, sixteen years earlier. So World

42:25

War Two had only ended about forty years

42:28

earlier. So um,

42:30

if you if you take today and roll back that

42:32

same time period forty years ago, forty

42:36

years ago, Uh, the

42:38

Philadelphia Police Department was bombing their own

42:40

city and people know about

42:42

that stuff. Off

42:45

in your math. World War Two

42:48

ended, and

42:50

you were in elementary

42:52

school and the late

42:56

mentally seventies, right, I

42:58

wasn't how much schooling to eighties? Mom?

43:01

I was ten years old, nineteen eight. Okay,

43:03

Well that's store up forty years okay,

43:06

mother. Nonetheless, world War two

43:08

was raging forty years earlier. Yeah,

43:12

that's let's safe. The

43:14

message your worst subject and you're trying to school

43:16

me on a mother, But

43:18

if you go back one years ago, Rodney

43:21

King was beaten. Four years ago, you

43:23

know, James Bird was was lynched Jasper,

43:27

Texas, right dragged behind a

43:29

pickup truck, chained by his feet till his body

43:31

fell apart. Ten years ago, is Trayvon.

43:34

Yeah, these were the things that that's

43:36

the type same type of stuff they would have been teaching us

43:38

back then. If they were even going to teach that. They

43:41

weren't going to teach it. But so if you take

43:43

a look at that time frame, that's what really

43:45

scares him because they were alive during that. They understand

43:47

that, and they it's like,

43:49

wow, that happened on our watch and

43:53

did yeah, And

43:55

and the history of racism

43:58

is so it's taught as black history when

44:00

it's really white history, and that it's a lot of white

44:02

people as well, folks

44:05

like Joan that were out there marching with people. It was

44:07

like a shared struggle for some folks,

44:09

but is just straight

44:12

out in our US history, it's

44:14

a sewers history. Yeah,

44:20

I was very I was very interested in something

44:22

you said, Joan, about how you all made

44:24

mistakes. There's things that you would have done differently,

44:27

and that's certainly not a piece of history that they

44:29

teach people in the in the way that they idealize

44:32

the struggle at the time we levon Brown. Mom

44:34

talks about that my jog memory a little

44:36

bit. But um,

44:39

when there was that schism in Snick, the

44:41

Snake leadership between John,

44:44

Yeah, I think I think the thing that I

44:47

I kind of focus on at times about the civil

44:49

rights movement is we kind of forget you

44:51

know, we we we focus on these key singular

44:54

moments, the Greensboro sit in and

44:56

the freedom rise into setness. Um,

44:59

but you know, and assume

45:01

that one thing took care of everything, and

45:04

that you know, we can condense these things

45:06

down to just a couple of days here and there

45:08

and hoof everything. Saw. I mean, Greensboro

45:10

did not fix Jackson. Greensboro fixed

45:12

Greensboro Jackson Jackson

45:15

right right. We all need to work within the space

45:18

where we live, as

45:20

my mom would say. And that's the hippies say,

45:22

you know, bloom where you're planted right right.

45:25

Um, we tell kids, don't try to change the world,

45:27

change your world, whatever that might

45:29

be. And what for my mom it was the

45:31

South right want I

45:34

didn't care about them. Let

45:36

them fix their own stuff. They got their own different

45:38

problems that they'll tackle. Well, you know, Malcolm

45:40

X was working on that, right, so right, yeah, yeah,

45:43

but yeah, I really appreciate you raising that because

45:45

I think I speak to like middle schools, high

45:47

schools all the time, and I've

45:49

been thinking a lot about how this, like civil rights history

45:51

is kind of painted for a lot of kids like

45:53

something that happened somewhere else as part

45:56

of the way where they're trying to discourage people

45:58

from like carrying those struggles forward. It's like, oh,

46:00

they were marching, Yeah, they're marching on Washington,

46:02

They're marching down in Mississippi. Was like, no, they

46:04

were marching in Athens, Georgia, Like we

46:06

had our own movement here. Yeah, they

46:08

don't want you to know about because at

46:15

the university, Wait, you when

46:17

integrating. Yeah,

46:20

yes, I do recall that they don't teach you about

46:22

that. That inspired me to,

46:25

um go to two Galoup that watching

46:28

that so close to where my family

46:30

was from Nicholson, that if

46:33

integration was real, I was thinking, it's

46:35

got to be a two way street. Maybe

46:37

I should applied to a colored school,

46:40

not being put like term then and

46:43

um I talked it over with my

46:45

friends. You know, the leadership of Snick

46:47

and they thought it was a good idea. And somebody

46:49

said, well, if you're gonna do what you may as well

46:52

go to Mississippi. Those students haven't done

46:54

anything yet, meaning demonstrations, maybe

46:57

you can help them. And so

47:00

I applied, and two of the lutives.

47:02

It was the only nationally accredited

47:05

school that colored students could go to.

47:07

Sorry about that phone, I don't know how to remut

47:09

it. It's all that I got a baby yodel in the

47:11

background, we got phones, It's all. It's

47:15

an orchestract. And I was accepted

47:17

in two Glue, even though my high

47:19

school up here refused,

47:22

very pointedly, without spelling it

47:24

out, to send my transcripts.

47:27

Um. But they still accepted me and said, oh

47:29

well we'll take you on your Duke University

47:31

transcripts and go on there for one year,

47:34

reported company when I wanted

47:36

to go back to school, and it was right

47:38

after the riots. And that is such

47:40

an interesting idea that I don't think people

47:43

and brave enough that like integration does have

47:45

to be a two way stream. Um, it's

47:47

not just about like advancing, you

47:49

know, getting people of color and positions

47:51

of power and into these white spaces. It's

47:53

also like I got this one friend

47:55

that's like, why dude who like shows up at

47:58

like all of these like all black events,

48:00

cetera. Does it just happened to be in black communities.

48:02

But he's out there doing the work of meeting people, of

48:05

helping people, of talking to folks. Um.

48:08

But so many people are scared to do that because

48:10

there is helping green racism. Like even

48:12

if you try to be an anti racism, it's like,

48:15

well if I show up, like

48:17

people will laugh at me or I won't, you

48:19

know, I don't want to understand, etcetera.

48:22

But that's a really important thing for us to remember

48:24

as well. And there are lots of different ways

48:26

to make a difference. I mean I was

48:30

sitting in and all that. Then I had a family

48:33

and that really I had to

48:35

take care of the kids. But at

48:37

their elementary school I made a difference.

48:41

Um, I particularly one of and

48:44

a number of different ways. But the

48:46

music teacher who lived a couple

48:48

of blocks so I may wanted to a

48:50

good song to teach for I

48:53

think it was, you know, Black History Month,

48:55

and I said, we'll lift every voice and sing.

48:58

He had not a blue

49:01

but she looked it up. She wanted

49:03

to teach it to something, to teach

49:05

to the chorus

49:08

to sing it and um

49:10

our big international dinner. She

49:13

ended up teaching that song to every

49:15

kid in the school and

49:17

they sang it at the international dinner with

49:20

the chorus standing on the stage. But

49:23

every kid, you know, singing

49:25

on probably the first I'm you

49:28

know, not a nine point nine for St. Suard's

49:30

the first formerly all white

49:32

school in the county, if not the state,

49:35

for all the kids to learn lift every

49:37

voice and sing. But there were

49:39

a number of other things too, But the

49:42

biggest deal in my book, it's not

49:44

just like study again, like the big event studying,

49:47

you know what happened in Greensburg's also just knowing

49:49

about cultural artifacts from

49:51

our communities, like taking the time to learn

49:53

a very important song test and

49:55

things like that. Yeah, I took

49:57

care. They had all these white doll baby

50:00

and olders sounds

50:02

kindergarten class, and it was the

50:04

girl's corner and the boys corner.

50:07

Well, I took care of the doll babies

50:09

by making a bunch of cloth dolls

50:11

out of different skin tone. Perhaps

50:14

I had an interchangeable clothes

50:16

and those white plastic doll babies

50:18

disappeared, and then I said, well,

50:20

now, my son, he's going to be upset

50:23

by you pauling that the girl's corner because

50:25

he likes he wanted an ironing

50:27

board, small ironing board for

50:29

Christmas, and he's not

50:32

gonna be happy about you saying that's a girl

50:34

thing. Well it quickly changed

50:36

to the housekeeping corner and the workshop

50:39

corner. When the school I was working,

50:41

and I would go in with the second grade

50:43

classes every year and read books about

50:46

segregation, Dr King

50:49

and the American South. I mean, that's why they will

50:51

play picture books to the second graders

50:53

and alternate those with um

50:56

South Africa part time that Nelson

50:59

Mandela mm hmm. I've

51:01

had now decades

51:04

later, adults walk

51:06

up to me and remind me they

51:08

remember when I taught them all that in class.

51:11

So I think I made a difference in my small

51:14

ways. Oh absolutely, absolutely,

51:16

Yeah. I really appreciate you sharing

51:18

so much history I didn't know about and reframing

51:20

the history that I knew. But I also love

51:22

to ask you all about what you're working on these days.

51:24

So um, let's start with you. Look, what's what

51:27

are you getting into these days? Oh?

51:29

Gosh, who am I working? On right now. What are you doing

51:31

these days? You know, I've discovered

51:33

TikTok after a while. I've been

51:35

working on that, sharing

51:38

a lot of content there, um,

51:40

you know, and yeah,

51:43

more of my mom's stories, kind of stuff you don't hear about

51:45

from the sol I love

51:47

it. Yeah, and then trying to interject

51:49

a few little things that I have as

51:51

well. Um, you know, I'm

51:54

just we finished shooting a film, a little

51:56

short documentary, um, about

51:58

a gentleman who every day

52:00

he goes He's ninety two years old and every day he goes

52:02

the Evan Pettish Bridge to pray

52:04

for the state trooper that beat him on bloody Sunday.

52:08

Um. I'm working on a whole

52:11

diverse the equity inclusion training modules

52:13

you know, that will be a whole online platform,

52:16

but that that incorporates my

52:19

mom's story and in the various films

52:21

now that I've done and using those

52:24

as kind of a training tools as

52:26

well. Um, you

52:28

know, working on an Emmett til film. That's been

52:30

a long process that continues. You

52:32

know, they just got kind of gag

52:35

with with the

52:37

COVID and so forth. I'm starting to yeah,

52:40

okay, let's start, let's go back and reevaluate

52:42

that a little more and than another.

52:46

Now working on another season of our Uncomfortable

52:48

Truth podcast, so we're gonna cramped up

52:51

for that. So yeah, you

52:53

know the usual, the usual, you

52:55

know the usual. Well that's a

52:57

really exciting and what about you and John? What you what I

53:00

got in the fire these days? Well, I can't

53:02

march anymore because my knees have given

53:04

out, but um, I can run

53:06

my mouth pretty good. I

53:10

do a lot of public speaking. The

53:12

Deltas had me out to Memphis the

53:14

alumni chapter, and I was

53:17

talking out there and I just

53:19

um. I was talking at

53:21

a Hampton Sydney University

53:24

and um with Loki along with me

53:26

on this and showing video clips in

53:29

Farmville, Virginia, which was crucial

53:33

to getting the schools integrated in Virginia

53:36

and even went into Brown versus board. I'm

53:39

moving to high school and um,

53:42

I speak in local elementary

53:44

schools, you

53:46

know, colleges and anybody

53:49

that invites me. And if I got transportation

53:51

issues, they got to pay for my transportation.

53:54

Put me up and feed me somewhere, private

53:56

home, five star hotel either way.

53:59

Yeah, run in my mouth is my main thing.

54:01

Now. I love that I'm going to remember

54:03

that for the rest of my life as long

54:06

as the brain cell still work. Cut

54:08

me off and they don't. Yeah,

54:10

oh man, Well, um, any

54:12

closing words of hope for our

54:15

listeners. Y'all have been at it for a minute, creating

54:17

beautiful art and sharing beautiful stories to

54:20

you know, keep this movement alive. But

54:22

what's one last thing you'd like people to know as they

54:25

as we part ways? Um, to

54:27

give them the do something? Get

54:29

out there? Yeah? I feel that things

54:31

things do get better. People

54:34

didn't believe slavery went in, but

54:37

it did, and I believe Jim Crow was gonna end,

54:39

but it did. Um.

54:42

But it ended because you

54:44

know, like the echo the words of FAINTI

54:46

low hammer. Uh, they were

54:48

stick and tired of being sick and tired. We

54:51

we we gotta keep pressing forward

54:54

because the other side's

54:56

not tired. Um.

54:59

But yeah, how do people keep in touch with

55:01

your work? Find your work? Um?

55:03

You know, continue to learn from you on Obviously

55:06

you know what I said before. We're all we're on TikTok so

55:08

Loki Malholland is it

55:11

is it a page a channel where they I'm

55:13

really new to TikTok. Also so yeah, I think

55:15

a page but I don't know. But it's fire

55:17

fire content. Please go check it out. Yes,

55:19

yeah, we know. We're on Instagram and Facebook

55:22

and stuff foundation with

55:24

Mama's name on it. Yep, I was good.

55:29

So if you go to our website www

55:31

dot the j t M

55:33

Foundation dot org. Um.

55:36

I don't know why I put the www

55:38

at the beginning of that. That shows how one way I am now.

55:40

Um yeah, I mean so the jt M

55:43

Foundation dot org um, and

55:45

that's where we have h we have scholarship

55:47

programs there that we're doing. We've got obviously

55:50

our films. People can contribute. Please

55:53

go check out the jt M Foundation

55:55

dot org to learn more. Follow Loki

55:57

on TikTok and Instagram at Loki

55:59

Mohammed at Loki

56:01

Moholland and keep

56:03

up the fight. You know, they've been out here doing it for a minute,

56:06

creating beautiful, our cham peutiful stories. But we're gonna

56:08

make our own new stories, carrying

56:10

forward the fight. But yeah, thank

56:12

you, thank you for being here. Thank you a

56:17

yo, we are back.

56:19

That was Joan Maholland and her son Loki. That

56:22

was quite a robust conversation.

56:24

You'll have there. Yeah. I tried not to get into

56:27

like specific like what was it light to meet megger

56:29

ever, but still kind of like understand

56:32

more of just like what lessons

56:34

can be drawn from the work that they have done.

56:36

And so I hope that's been helpful to everybody listening

56:39

and thinking about your own role in movements, the

56:41

work that is still left to be done, etcetera.

56:43

I definitely feel like I got a lot of that. No,

56:46

you definitely did. Definitely did. And you'll make sure that

56:48

you'll check out that documentary so you can get a

56:50

more robust picture of her full

56:52

biography and the things that she did well

56:57

I do. Oh, you know what, we gotta throw

56:59

out a congratulate sations Mariah, our

57:01

homie, the person who you've

57:03

never heard who spends us the beats.

57:06

Joel brought

57:08

a new bundle of joy. Dad's

57:10

dad is now Dad's dad times too. Congratulations

57:15

Joel. He's not

57:17

going to hear this because he's probably like

57:19

knee deep and dirty diverse right now. But who's

57:22

taken over? I think it's Taylor taken over? A

57:25

Taylor. You know, we know

57:28

you're new to this, Taylor, but we

57:30

we gotta wrap to close this out, So can you

57:32

can you pick through one of those instrumentals of mine and

57:34

play something? Yeah,

57:43

wait, no reparation to get in and

57:46

sitting in their bodies on the line, get

57:48

in jail the kit and fund dement that. But

57:50

right at the time they deep but not the

57:53

John no surprised. They's saying the times

57:55

to the best on the right and like

57:57

they would have set up but really they would have set

57:59

up a wouldn't cross and burning like some terrorizing

58:02

the neighbors of what they hoods up. They really shook

58:04

watching all the people out they mobilized, looking back

58:06

and them Okay, like I know that guy, they

58:09

don't even know to have motherfucker's

58:11

I know you're whack when the revolutions

58:13

over exploded like a nova. I just took a ride

58:15

to Croker and nobody pulled me over. I got the love

58:17

Song site and ain't nobody sober. You know my

58:20

name dope night. My mamma called me toga go

58:22

and smoke up. It's all legal. We all regal

58:24

all ball. No such things as small people,

58:26

gun sticks, pots and pans were fought evil.

58:29

Now we got plots of land for a zero

58:31

told you not to dreams that it's all in your hand. They

58:33

told you not to lead to the followers. Stand now,

58:35

you can get a good job keeping all of your dreads,

58:38

and we can party without caring. Go and call the fans.

58:40

Everybody dapping on one having a fuss. Came

58:42

a long damn way from the back of the bus, and

58:45

we let in the white folks that we happen to trust,

58:47

and everybody else can come, but as black as a fuck.

58:50

Yeah,

58:53

waiting a reparation, Oh

58:57

knife, Frank, we are

59:00

waiting on reparations. Peace. Listen

59:07

to Waiting on Reparations on Apple Podcasts

59:10

or wherever you get your podcast.