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me. She's probably why I'm a feminist now

1:00

because I was like, right, I'll

1:02

fix my own damn shoes. This

1:04

week on Walking the Dog, Raymond and

1:06

I went for a stroll in St

1:08

James's Park with broadcaster, presenter, and someone

1:10

with a legion of fans on social

1:12

media, Ashley James. Ashley

1:15

first rose to prominence on Made in Chelsea

1:17

and also had a stint in the Celebrity

1:19

Big Brother house. And by the

1:21

way, she gave me a really interesting insight

1:23

into her experiences on both those shows. But

1:26

she's since gone on to become a really

1:28

powerful voice speaking out about issues on shows

1:30

like Jeremy Vine, Good Morning Britain, and

1:33

via her weekly appearances on This Morning. She's

1:35

also got a huge fan base on

1:37

social media where she posts regularly about

1:39

her views and life as a working mum.

1:42

I had a lovely walk with Ashley

1:44

because she's such an honest and fascinating

1:46

person to talk to. But it was

1:48

also very event filled. There were

1:51

geese. There was a surprise encounter with

1:53

Emma Barnet. We got serenaded by the

1:55

regimental band doing the changing of the

1:57

guard. We even saw a mystery. The

2:00

member of the royal family drive fast

2:02

too much since discovered with Quintanilla so

2:04

all in all it was a huge

2:06

leap. memorable often aid I like to

2:08

go. Love it all. Stop talking now

2:10

and hand over to the woman herself

2:12

to tears actually And they right. Oh.

2:16

Right right as a joke and get run over. Lot.

2:19

Of jokers Astley has not

2:21

made no no not really

2:23

fucking say else. Child boss

2:25

whole that really makes a

2:27

room sitting. On

2:30

the cause us with his you

2:33

have the most beautiful thing Trainers

2:35

Sekou on I am I will

2:37

call for I think you'll find

2:39

their fanbase added A some those

2:41

unable night on Paul. Risley Boy

2:44

Development yes I know what you're about to

2:46

say and Rishi say not ruined the Sam

2:48

Those Nigel Frost comments as on and I

2:50

he said he preferred another. I did I

2:52

say when I didn't even wanna look at

2:55

which one because I tight I read it

2:57

I they say is and bring me joy

2:59

and I do not want them to get

3:01

tarnished by any right wing figure. One

3:07

us me. Juri

3:09

Getting off your leads sort come walk

3:11

away. He talking

3:13

to me? Your asses array access to

3:15

I'm just I'm just here for Ryan

3:17

phrase. Like okay,

3:19

say. What? Is inclusive

3:21

so far he says we.

3:25

I love that he's not fight say. No.

3:28

I'm not walking that he's got boundaries

3:30

and I think that's important in life

3:32

when you're that keeps you get what

3:34

you want to see what you mean

3:36

besides. Would do apologize.

3:38

An air and I'm safe and feels

3:40

like it's very early to be taking

3:42

a shit. He literally mass least three

3:44

minutes ago. I may not

3:47

touch more. Number two in the last few

3:49

weeks and I've lived here my life. Christmas

3:51

on the potty training on says as he

3:53

says i. Am

3:55

not. saying

4:00

Ashley, I'm so thrilled to have you on

4:02

Walking the Door. I'm very happy to be here.

4:05

I'm with the hugely

4:07

talented Ashley James, podcaster,

4:11

presenter, influencer,

4:13

DJ. Although I have

4:15

to say, I took out DJ from my bio the

4:17

other day. I feel like it was a pre-lockdown

4:20

version of myself. It

4:23

felt quite, it's quite a strange thing to kind of

4:25

put your identity on something and then to kind of

4:27

separate your ego to like, do I still

4:30

want to do this? Or is it because

4:32

I wanted to do it? And I feel

4:34

like it's failing. If I don't

4:36

do it, Ray's just gone. Not

4:39

interested, bored already.

4:43

Ashley, you're gonna see him run. And I think-

4:45

It's the cutest thing. Come on, Ray. If

4:47

you know a dog like this in Beauty and the Beast,

4:51

you know at the end when they all

4:53

get transformed back to humans. Isn't that the

4:55

brush? How dare you? Isn't it the brush?

5:00

No, I'm sure there's a dog like this.

5:02

Come on, Ray. There's something

5:04

really special about seeing a really fluffy

5:06

dog bounce through daisies on a sunny

5:08

day in London. So we're

5:10

in London's Green Park. Well,

5:13

you very kindly suggest that we meet because you're

5:15

actually based in Essex at the

5:17

moment. I am indeed, yeah. But

5:20

I'm moving, but I love Green Park because I

5:22

actually, when I first came to London,

5:25

I did a few different jobs, but I worked at Abercrombie and

5:27

Fitch. I used to spend a lot of time on our lunch

5:29

breaks. I feel like I

5:31

am that kind of age where anyone around

5:33

London was obsessed with Abercrombie

5:35

and Fitch. So that's actually my partner

5:37

Tommy. He worked there too, which is

5:39

kind of how we knew each other.

5:42

Was he one of the hunks that would stand

5:45

up for how he would be when he's top

5:47

off? I personally think he could have done that.

5:49

He'd be mortified, but no, he did the graduate

5:51

scheme like I did there, but he just did

5:54

it before he went travelling. What

5:56

was most famous about Abercrombie And Fitch,

5:58

of course, was the terrible lighting. inside

6:00

as well. Hollister had that yeah net

6:03

and a smile to they come through

6:05

fragrance to May I followed know it

6:07

is literally they pump it to the

6:09

advent and they also would pay the

6:12

same owl them. On. Repeat for

6:14

whole season and it repeated

6:16

every hour. So if you

6:18

work there you're in the

6:20

stock loud place where. Customers

6:23

may need a parents who did not

6:25

want speed average south at you and

6:27

so it is a terrible company with

6:30

pooling morals and values and I think

6:32

as a race and it's not as

6:34

big as it was that police people

6:36

will know. That. Are not getting paid

6:38

by have a Chrome ready for you To

6:40

mention this is sufficiently systems ruled out that

6:42

both of us is why what's in the

6:44

guy. Who are The Greaser?

6:47

Here. I think that was probably

6:49

a role I was given because

6:51

they so oh you're talking to

6:53

illustrate his everything up with swords

6:55

down by the door and say

6:57

hi Welcome Forgot I didn't know

7:00

cup had to see that. Love

7:02

I didn't I say asteroids are

7:04

this on? Thought I had the

7:06

house Maybe thing everyone says experience

7:08

some sort of job like that.

7:11

I. Think it's really good thing to do.

7:14

I'm filler any jobs and gen con

7:16

have gotten you that they said i

7:18

and make you fit one set it

7:20

because you kind of understand the hours

7:22

and their environment that you read our

7:24

is a chambermaid. My parents had a

7:27

guest house chamber maids it from about

7:29

twelve hadn't I was having my mom

7:31

salon and six floors so I set

7:33

swat very early wait to hated at

7:35

the time for this is also a.

7:40

Recent development other predators, There's

7:42

no pretty subsets compensate me she's probably

7:44

I'm a feminist now for kids are

7:47

as lot while affect my own Damn

7:49

see is it is not so we

7:51

just go across. I have an awfully.

7:54

In his he James's. As

7:56

you can say, He can forget

7:59

a clip cropping it. horses. We're outside

8:01

Buckingham Palace and it

8:03

looks like someone very important is about to

8:05

come out doesn't it because everyone's waiting. All

8:07

people just come here and hope. Oh

8:12

god, the poo. Don't even poo outside

8:14

the roof. I just,

8:17

I've actually just pointed out, I just want

8:19

to put one of those poos. Are

8:21

you trying to make a political statement?

8:23

I'm going to go outside Buckingham Palace.

8:25

I do apologise. So we're just

8:27

going to cross over into St

8:29

James's and I'm going to release

8:31

this poo. Right. Geese.

8:38

Quite aggressive geese aren't they? Oh my gosh, geese and a

8:40

squirrel. Talk me through

8:43

your experience of dogs. I

8:45

love dogs. I grew up from,

8:48

I think when I was born we had dogs and

8:50

I lived on a farm so we had working dogs as well.

8:54

And I don't know if you ever met my dog Snoop. He's

8:57

still around but I made the very

8:59

big mistake of asking my parents to look

9:01

after him when we went

9:04

on holiday and my parents

9:06

have both just retired. They live with

9:08

my grand who has terminal cancer in

9:11

the Lake District. They moved there

9:13

during lockdown and when I say

9:15

Snoop changed their life, he's given

9:17

them so much joy and

9:19

happiness and for my grand that doesn't really leave

9:22

the house very much. I

9:24

just couldn't really request

9:26

for him to come back and I

9:30

see him all the time obviously if I go see them

9:33

or if they come to me. So yeah, Snoop now lives

9:35

with my parents and I don't even have the heart to

9:37

tell them it's because I

9:39

don't want him back because I know

9:41

how happy he makes them. But I

9:44

think dogs are amazing and I miss, you

9:46

know, I really miss even from a mental

9:48

health perspective waking up, going for a walk.

9:51

That's how I spent so much of my

9:53

lockdown going around Battersea Park with Snoop.

9:56

And what sort of a dog is Snoop? Snoop's

9:58

a toy poodle. And he's

10:00

nine now, and he

10:03

was just with me through so

10:05

many ups and downs of life. It

10:07

kind of felt a lot of the time like it was me

10:10

and him against the world, you know, when I was going

10:12

through breakups and moving

10:15

in and out of different rented properties

10:17

and trying to find myself

10:19

around London and trying to find myself in

10:21

my career. I feel like he was that

10:24

kind of one consistent thing, that

10:26

they just show you so much love, don't

10:28

they, unconditionally? Did you have

10:30

dogs when you were growing up? This

10:32

is in the north-east, isn't it? Yes, I

10:34

grew up in a really

10:36

small town in the north-east, but it's sort of

10:39

really close to the Cumbrian border.

10:42

So it's definitely north-eastern, but it

10:44

kind of has a

10:46

lot of, like, Cumbrian influence, very much

10:48

in the borders. And,

10:51

yeah, at the farm we had both

10:53

working dogs and pet dogs, and then,

10:55

yeah, we just always had dogs. It's

10:58

funny, though, because we always had

11:00

kind of like five cross-carriers and

11:03

never, never pedigree dogs. So when I

11:05

got Snoop, it felt like I've really

11:07

made it, getting a poodle. And now

11:09

my dad always says, "'Ee, I never

11:11

thought I'd have had a poodle man

11:14

if you'd have called me, but he's a great dog." We

11:16

all say my dad found the first

11:18

true love of his life when

11:20

Snoop went to go live with him. It's

11:23

been actually really cute seeing their relationship.

11:25

But, yeah, dogs have

11:28

just always been such a constant

11:30

part of my life. Interesting,

11:32

because you were doing

11:35

your dad's accent there, and he

11:37

sounds quite jawty. Both

11:39

my parents are very jawty, and

11:42

often when people say about their biggest

11:44

insecurities, people talk about parts of their

11:46

body or their face. But

11:49

my biggest insecurity has always been

11:51

my accent, because

11:53

I was born obviously jawty. But I was

11:55

born not saying anything. I wasn't like some

11:58

child prodigy way I am. My

12:01

first accent was Jordy and that was obviously

12:03

my world and my life and then I won

12:06

a scholarship to a boarding school so they have to

12:08

let a certain number of the

12:10

working class kids in and

12:12

I got bullied, not even bullied,

12:15

that's an extreme, I got teased

12:17

because of my accent and

12:20

when you're seven, eight,

12:23

you just want to fit in don't you and be like

12:25

everyone else and I was so bored of everyone being like,

12:27

have you heard the new Jordy girl go on and say

12:29

something? Do or no, that's hilarious.

12:32

So I kind of faked a

12:34

posh accent and then it became

12:36

my accent but I had

12:38

so many identity issues growing up

12:40

because I always felt that I

12:42

never quite fit into either environment

12:45

that I was in and I

12:47

never felt enough in either environment

12:49

so it's funny that

12:51

now often people assume, especially

12:54

because I did a show like Made in Chelsea,

12:56

they always assume that my background is so different

12:58

to what it is and I feel like my

13:00

accent sort of hides such

13:02

a big part of my identity because we

13:04

do judge people so much in their accents,

13:06

don't they? But it

13:09

means that I get to do a great impression of Jordy Jeff. I

13:13

think people are always quite surprised by my politics because

13:15

of how I talk as well. I

13:17

suppose my accent is considered quite posh and I

13:19

did a show like Made in Chelsea. People

13:22

always assume that I'm going to be

13:24

quite a right-wing mousy so then

13:26

when they hear more liberal

13:29

viewpoints coming out they're always

13:31

quite surprised. Did

13:34

you have a sense of not quite belonging

13:36

in some ways, being always... Did

13:38

you? Yeah, and

13:40

I still actually... I will

13:42

go into a room and assume everyone

13:44

doesn't like me and I think it's...

13:48

I'm much better at managing that now. I mean

13:50

I used to be so... in my

13:52

twenties I was such a die-hard

13:54

people pleaser and I'd walk

13:56

away from people and situations

13:58

and think, I bet they're

14:00

all talking about me. Firstly, I learned that I'm

14:03

not the main character in everyone's life, so

14:05

I don't think that as much. But

14:07

yeah, I think my default is feeling

14:09

not good enough, and I do think

14:11

it stems from such a young age, not

14:13

feeling like I fit in at home, and not

14:15

feeling like I fit in in a boarding school,

14:17

but always being told that as well. I was

14:19

always being told, well, that's not normal. That's

14:22

not normal, but what wasn't normal at home was

14:25

normal at school, and vice versa. What

14:28

was your sort of family energy

14:30

like, I suppose? Sure, my

14:32

parents, I didn't, I'm gonna

14:34

say that, I didn't really see them much, because

14:37

my mum was a hairdresser, and

14:39

she owned her own salon, so she'd done really well.

14:42

And my dad was

14:44

a truck driver, and

14:46

then they both had the bed and breakfast,

14:48

the guesthouse. So anytime they weren't

14:51

at one job, they'd be doing the

14:53

other job. So whether it was my dad

14:55

in the garden, or speaking to visitors, or

14:58

my mum doing the chambermaiding, and

15:00

they worked seven days a week. They

15:03

took one week off for October

15:05

holidays, but the rest of the time

15:07

they were always working. And

15:09

I don't really

15:11

have, I think as an adult, I really

15:14

appreciate their work ethic, and I think I've

15:16

got a lot of their drive, and I

15:18

also appreciate now more of

15:20

the kind of difficulty that

15:23

they had being a working

15:25

class family, with children

15:28

in a quiet aristocratic

15:30

environment. And so I

15:32

can appreciate the fact that they didn't come

15:34

to plays and hockey matches and all

15:36

of those things, because they couldn't, because they were

15:38

working, and they had to work to

15:41

be able to afford to be able to

15:43

keep us there, even though we were scholarship

15:46

children. I wonder if there was a part of

15:48

them separating that as well, that, you

15:50

know, it's a weird thing, isn't it? That

15:53

sort of, I want my kids to have a better starting

15:55

life, I suppose, than I had, materially

15:58

I'm talking about. and I

16:01

don't want to get in the way of that. No,

16:04

I think I actually know

16:06

that they wanted us to have the

16:08

opportunities they didn't. My parents were actually

16:10

both from farming backgrounds and they both,

16:13

for different reasons, left school at

16:16

15. My dad had to take over the farm when his

16:18

dad got cancer and my mum had to

16:21

mend and cook and do all of those things.

16:23

Anyway, don't go near the geese. So,

16:27

that's interesting. I think that they wanted

16:29

us so much to have everything they

16:31

didn't and to have an education and

16:34

have opportunity, but I don't think

16:37

they ever really thought that they

16:39

were sending us into really a

16:41

completely different environment that it would

16:43

change us. And I think I'm

16:46

sure that they wouldn't mind me saying that they

16:48

were very resentful of that change. Like anything I

16:50

did, it was like, what, you think that's normal?

16:53

You think that's normal to behave like that? And

16:55

I remember even silly things. Like at school we were

16:57

taught, I mean it's totally sexist

16:59

looking back, but we were taught to address all

17:01

men as sir. Now

17:04

I'd go to the co-op or wherever it

17:06

was in my town or home, like, thank

17:09

you sir. And dad would be like,

17:11

what are you doing, man? It's embarrassing. And I was

17:13

just this really confused

17:15

kid. But then I'd go

17:17

to school and I remember my mum made

17:19

the grave mistake of giving me a Victoria

17:21

Beckham style haircut. So it was long at

17:23

the front and shaved at the back. I don't know if you remember

17:26

that Spice Girl era when I was 11 and

17:28

that wasn't the kind of thing that boarding

17:30

school kids did. So I got really teased

17:32

with being a chav. I remember another thing,

17:35

my first bra, which I had to get

17:37

when I was quite young before most of

17:39

the guys were in bras. I picked a

17:41

black bra and I didn't know that that

17:43

was considered not very classy. So then I

17:46

was teased with being tarty. So there was

17:48

just always these kind of like undertones. And

17:53

one story I remember, which I didn't really

17:55

analyse as a child, I mean, I'm about

17:59

to say it's just shows the polarized world

18:01

that I lived in between coming from

18:03

a working-class northern town but I was

18:05

staying at my friend's castle

18:07

and now King Charles

18:10

was coming and we were having

18:14

to practice curtsies and anyway they

18:16

had told my parents to come

18:18

pick us up, me, up earlier

18:21

so I didn't, I wasn't part of it

18:23

and looking back I do wonder if it's because they

18:26

didn't want like the working-class

18:28

kid to be around

18:30

in that environment whereas everyone else is like

18:32

titles and so it's really hard to explain

18:35

because obviously I feel like immense privilege that

18:37

everything in life has led to me, you

18:40

know I had these amazing experiences but it

18:42

was also just really confusing as a child.

18:44

Crucially what I think it does teach you

18:47

I think you become very portable socially

18:50

and I think you're probably very good at that as

18:52

well you can adapt you have to be

18:54

adaptable don't you? Yeah I think it's given

18:56

me a lot of empathy as well because

18:58

I've seen different struggles and different situations. Ray

19:01

has gone over to find another family, what

19:04

he's done actually he's gone over

19:07

to hang out with people better than us just to

19:09

make a say in life. Maybe he's

19:11

telling them about his identity troubles. I

19:13

do think he looks at me sometimes and my

19:15

ancestors lived in palaces with emperors.

19:18

Yeah it's true your

19:21

parents were they huggied, monstrously

19:23

affectionate types? The

19:26

opposite of affectionate honestly like I

19:28

remember even as young as I

19:30

can remember they feel like therapy

19:32

now but I remember trying

19:34

to give my mum hugs and she'd stiffen up and be

19:36

like get off me I don't like cruddles I don't like

19:38

cruddles and I think that's

19:40

also why as an early teen I

19:43

put kind of so much emphasis on boyfriends

19:46

because it was the first time really

19:48

I remember when I found out the

19:51

guy who ended up being my first boyfriend went and fancied me. I

19:53

don't even know if I fancied him I was just so shocked

19:56

that somebody liked me or

19:58

like wanted to be around me. that

20:00

I think that was the first time really

20:03

that I experienced real affection, which is probably

20:05

a bit sad. But no,

20:07

they're not very affectionate. And my brother and

20:09

sister, I think, were much more

20:11

like that, whereas I always felt like I

20:14

was born with a

20:16

desire to be so affectionate. And

20:18

I'm probably the total opposite now

20:20

to my kids, to the point

20:22

they're probably going to be like,

20:24

my mom's not stopped touching me.

20:26

Yeah, it's interesting. I feel like they are

20:28

that kind of like stereotypical

20:30

northern, much harder.

20:33

And now that I'm a lot older,

20:35

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20:37

a farming background, they didn't have that sort of

20:39

affection. And yeah,

20:42

that I think things were

20:44

much harder. Yeah, yeah. I

20:46

guess that's the beauty of adulthood, you kind

20:48

of see your parents as humans for the

20:50

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terms at mintmobile.com. Were

22:08

you always seen as sort of tall,

22:11

pretty, popular? No,

22:14

and do you know what, I remember, but

22:16

I say this and I don't mean this

22:18

to sound big-headed because I've always had huge

22:20

self-esteem issues, so I have never looked at

22:22

myself and thought, wow, I'm beautiful, but I

22:25

really saw myself as invisible growing up. Like

22:28

I said, always never feeling like I fit in, always

22:30

feeling like the odd one out. Just

22:33

not very... I wouldn't

22:35

say I wasn't popular, but I certainly wasn't one

22:37

of the cooler kids, and I

22:40

certainly didn't always felt less

22:42

than. And I remember when I, I think I

22:44

was 13, hearing whispers

22:46

that the older boys fainted me, and

22:49

I remember being like, me? What, me?

22:52

And like, well, I'm pretty, really?

22:55

And it felt like I'd hit the jackpot

22:57

because suddenly I was like, it felt like

22:59

a currency or something that, even

23:02

though I didn't see it with myself. And it

23:04

makes me sad now because I wish someone had

23:06

sat me down and almost warned me of like,

23:09

boys are going to

23:11

find you attractive, or they're going to say things which might not

23:13

even be true. I just felt very

23:15

gullible because it felt like for the first

23:17

time somebody was seeing value

23:20

in me, and then I almost put

23:22

so much value into the way I looked.

23:25

But I was also pigeonholed at school as

23:27

well. It would always be like, oh, actually,

23:29

boys don't like it when girls do that,

23:32

or boys don't like it when... And

23:34

I felt like I was almost being

23:37

groomed into being malleable for boys. And

23:40

I just sort of

23:42

wish somebody had kind of said, just

23:45

given me a bit of self-belief and

23:49

tools to cope with that kind of

23:51

attention, especially when I didn't necessarily believe

23:53

it myself, so I didn't think, well,

23:56

I deserve the best. I

23:58

can't have thought of it. oh my

24:00

god, this tension, this is amazing. And I didn't really

24:03

know how to do that

24:05

in a confident way. Well

24:07

also you can't sift through, you

24:10

know, good attention from bad

24:12

attention if you know what I mean. Do

24:14

you know what I mean? And I also

24:16

really rejected beauty because I felt like women

24:18

had a choice. You could choose beauty or

24:20

you could choose brains. And I always felt

24:23

like I wanted to be taken seriously. So

24:25

I remember I stopped

24:27

wearing makeup and I'd wear glasses that I didn't even

24:29

need. And I'd scrape my hair back and

24:32

I actively did not want to be

24:34

seen as

24:36

being beautiful because I felt that

24:38

as a girl and especially

24:40

as a girl with very big boobs, I was like

24:42

automatically sexualized and almost like made to feel like, well,

24:45

you're a slutty by default. Look at your boobs, look

24:47

at your body. Boys fancy.

24:49

So even if they would ping my bra straps,

24:51

it was always like, actually stop attracting attention. So

24:54

I always felt like being

24:56

beautiful whilst it made me

24:59

feel seen, it felt like a bit of a curse because I

25:01

was like, but I don't want, I don't

25:03

want boys to run after me and try and pull

25:05

my pants down. I don't want my bra strapping. I

25:07

don't want, I don't want to

25:09

be like made to feel like, I want

25:11

to get attention for hugging my brother and the teachers are like,

25:13

do you think people in the town will know that he's your

25:15

brother? What do you think they all think when they see you

25:17

can noodling with an off-life member of

25:19

the opposite sex? And I remember thinking it just

25:21

feels really unfair. So it took

25:24

me a long time and probably actually coming

25:26

into this industry where suddenly it was like,

25:28

sex sells, be more sexy. I

25:31

embraced all of that. And it just

25:33

felt like for a long

25:35

time, you can't, I

25:37

felt like I had to pick being feminine or

25:40

being intelligent. And you can't be

25:43

taken seriously with both. I remember,

25:45

cause I always had a sticky out bum

25:48

right after on decade. What can I tell you?

25:50

It's so true. Now I've been making a

25:53

fucking portion of it. You can indeed be

25:55

in a Kim Kardashian era. But

25:58

when I was growing up. That was...

26:01

I was growing up around the time I've done my bum look

26:03

big in this. But you

26:05

know what was interesting? From a young age,

26:07

I mean terrifyingly young. I

26:10

can remember adults saying

26:12

things like, look at you showing your bum

26:14

off, or I used to

26:16

get showing off your curves, or I think

26:19

I've just got a dress on, or I've

26:21

just got jeans on. Those

26:23

messages start very young, don't they? I

26:27

feel really passionately and it

26:29

makes me so angry, the

26:31

sexualisation of the female body,

26:33

because I realised throughout

26:35

my life that I was a 30 double G from

26:38

the age of 13. Didn't

26:40

pay for them, didn't want them, they just got

26:42

put on my chest. And the level of

26:45

judgement and attention that they got, they, my

26:47

boobs, right from the very beginning, and it

26:49

was always cover up. If you want to

26:52

be taken seriously, boys like Galtu, don't show

26:54

everything off, leave something to the imagination,

26:56

boys would come up. And both of my life

26:58

I was like 13, 14, are you shaven? What's

27:01

your favourite position? I wasn't even sexually

27:03

active and it was just constant. And

27:05

I think rather than adults trying to

27:07

police boys and

27:10

be like, it's her body. I

27:12

had a lot of whistling going

27:14

on there. Maybe there's some

27:17

people coming out, bucking in tennis. I

27:20

always felt like I was the problem and

27:22

it taught me really young that if I

27:24

got unwanted attention, that was because I hadn't

27:26

covered up correctly or I had been asking

27:28

for it. And that was such a toxic

27:31

way to be. And

27:33

then it happens, you see it in

27:35

tabloids all the time, like so and

27:37

so, just made their generous cleavage or

27:39

flaunt their ample assets. And

27:42

it's like you said, I'm wearing a bloody dress, I'm

27:44

not following anything, I'm not a long dress. I

27:46

don't want people to look at my generous

27:48

cleavage or my ample assets, but sometimes it's

27:50

like I'm wearing a high neck t-shirt, what

27:52

do you want from me? And

27:54

then when I became pregnant and I was

27:56

breastfeeding, it was like the same commentary of

27:58

like, oh, you're a t-shirt. attention seeking, put

28:00

them away, and go do it some more

28:03

privately. And I thought, give me

28:05

a break. Even when I'm feeding

28:07

a child, I'm still being told that my

28:09

boobs are a problem and that I'm attention

28:11

seeking. But who do you think I want

28:14

attention from? Genuinely, if I'm feeding my son

28:16

or my daughter, what

28:18

do you think in that situation I want? So

28:23

yeah, the hyper-sexualization of female bodies,

28:26

it makes me feel so sad and it worries

28:29

me. I have a daughter now and, like,

28:32

can she not just exist in her

28:34

body without this kind of commentary or

28:36

sexualization or idea that

28:39

her morality has somehow attached to her body.

28:41

What did you want to be when you

28:43

were younger? I don't really remember

28:45

when I was really young wanting

28:48

anything other than being a pop star, you

28:50

know, nothing. I never really thought about

28:52

the future like that, but I do remember 13, 14, I

28:55

really, really wanted to be a

29:00

war correspondent. And

29:02

I actually stood outside BBC Radio

29:04

Cumbria in the holidays and I managed to

29:06

convince them. I stand there every day being

29:08

like, do you need anyone to make tea?

29:11

And I managed to get work experience

29:13

at BBC Radio Cumbria. And it was

29:15

so great. And I

29:18

loved it and I got to talk

29:20

on the radio. I did these little

29:22

segments on smoking ban and just different

29:24

kind of topical, local topical issues like

29:26

the price of Cumberland sausages. And

29:29

it was great. And I thought,

29:31

yeah, this is it. This is what I want to

29:33

do. And I realized quite quickly, I couldn't be a

29:35

war correspondent because I cried at every single sad

29:38

moment of a movie. And I thought there's no

29:40

way that I'd be able to go there and

29:43

objectively report. So then I thought, well, maybe I

29:45

want to go into international development. And I

29:48

remember writing to all these

29:50

different charities like Medecins, or

29:52

Frontier, you know, people that go

29:54

and work in conflict zones and

29:56

thinking, well, I'll volunteer to work

29:58

in conflict zones. And

30:00

then I can help. And obviously

30:03

everybody was like, we don't just need people to

30:05

turn up. You actually have to have a skill

30:07

and do something. And I was actually

30:09

meant to go to Edinburgh and do a master's in

30:11

international development, but I changed my mind last minute. And

30:14

then, yeah, it was only really, I guess,

30:18

coming to London and kind of seeing

30:20

other people with dreams of media that

30:22

I sort of really started to see

30:24

it as an option. Because in the

30:26

meantime, I was doing other jobs like

30:28

life guarding and whatever

30:30

it was that I had to do to make money. And

30:33

you did a degree in French

30:36

and English? Yeah, French and English. Why did you

30:38

do that? So I actually went to King's College

30:40

London and then I transferred

30:42

to Nottingham. So I managed

30:44

to convince them to let me transfer straight into

30:46

second year. It was a very good

30:48

negotiation because it was also the year that the tuition

30:50

fees went up from 1,500 to 3,000. So

30:54

I managed to not only convince them to not

30:56

make me start again, but also to keep me

30:58

on the same tuition fee. And

31:00

then I love Nottingham so much. Do

31:03

you think, Ashley, and I appreciate this is

31:05

a difficult question to answer, that

31:09

people underestimate you intellectually

31:11

a bit? 100%,

31:15

but always, but I think especially being in this industry,

31:17

number one, because I did a reality show, so we

31:19

tend to all kind of typecast,

31:22

well, just reality stars, and I get that.

31:24

But also, I think from the attention that

31:26

I got with the tabloids and the media,

31:28

and I think people tend to forget that

31:30

I don't write those articles, but

31:33

sometimes I read about myself and think, oh my

31:35

God, even I don't like me. Now

31:37

I'm looking at this thinking, like, I sound like a

31:39

dick, because it would be things like,

31:41

I talk about the hyper-sexualization of boobs and how

31:44

it needs to stop, and how women with big boobs

31:46

shouldn't feel the need to cover up and they're not

31:48

asking for it, but then that would get picked up

31:51

by the tabloids and it would be a picture of

31:53

me from when I lingerie models and

31:55

they'd find the most provocative, kind of

31:57

male gaze image that they could find.

32:00

it would be like Ashley James laments having

32:02

big boobs as she flaunts her cleavage.

32:04

And I was like, oh, I

32:06

just look like a dick. I just look like I'm saying

32:08

things for attention. And I think for

32:10

as long as the media sort of

32:12

obsess over our bodies and who we

32:14

may or may not have dated, that's

32:18

how other people sort of see women in

32:20

a way that I don't think people see

32:22

men. But I love it, you know,

32:24

now that I get to go on to this morning

32:26

and talk about politics

32:29

and topical issues and fight for social

32:31

injustice. And I like that when people

32:33

fast knit me. I know, especially men,

32:36

they'll write me off and say, well, what does

32:38

this dumb blonde have to say? And

32:40

I think they're actually quite like, oh, she's

32:43

actually quite intelligent. So I quite like

32:45

proving people wrong. And I've also stopped letting

32:47

the tabloids sort of upset me. I think

32:49

there was this horrible article when I was

32:51

pregnant that said, Ashley James, who's famous for

32:53

having big boobs and dating famous

32:55

men. And I thought, am I? But

32:58

it really got to me, because I was like, I've

33:00

worked so hard. Is that

33:02

really what I'm known for? And

33:04

I don't think it's even really true, but I was

33:06

like, yeah, I dunno. I

33:10

think it's fine to be,

33:12

it doesn't bother me anymore being underestimated.

33:15

I wanna talk about when you

33:17

first, I suppose, it

33:19

came into people's wider public consciousness

33:21

and that was through you left

33:24

university and you decided

33:26

you wanted to work in

33:28

some form, in the media or entertainment. And

33:32

then this opportunity came up to be made in

33:34

Chelsea. So

33:36

presumably you were thrilled when that

33:38

happened. No, so what

33:40

actually happened was I had had a few

33:42

jobs in London. I actually worked two jobs

33:44

because I couldn't really afford to be in

33:46

London on the start out

33:48

jobs that I was doing. So

33:51

I'd work in a pub

33:53

at night, but do my graduate job in the

33:55

day. And then I worked as

33:57

a model for Abercrombie, which is. essentially

34:00

work as a shop assistant but they they glammed

34:02

it up and called it a model. Is

34:05

that how they lure you in? They've got

34:07

a great modeling job for you. Could you

34:09

move that fucking stock please? It's

34:11

pretty much, honestly. It's like it's not exactly never

34:14

be candle with is it? Yeah I feel like

34:16

I'd be a short chain I'm just thinking. My

34:19

model job's just showing people into the changing

34:21

room what's going on? But

34:23

then I quit the marketing job I did

34:25

and did the Abercrombie graduate scheme and then

34:27

I actually went to Itsu and I was

34:29

general manager, a general manager

34:32

of an Itsu store. It

34:34

was just awful because I had no experience. I've

34:36

always been a very good blagger so I blagged

34:38

the job. I had no experience of really

34:41

working in a restaurant never mind running

34:43

a restaurant. I'm free to roll quite

34:45

complicated. Yeah and very weather

34:47

dependent so you'd kind of you know if

34:49

it was a sunny day you needed sushi,

34:52

if it was a cold day you needed

34:54

hot food and I remember

34:56

thinking I was 25 thinking I had to be more

35:00

to life in this. How have I ended up here? I'd

35:02

worked for such long hours because I

35:04

had to all other people's hours came out

35:06

of my budgets and

35:09

so I quit and I remember I'd managed

35:11

to save two thousand pounds which in my

35:13

world felt huge. I was like I've got

35:15

two thousand pounds I'm going to quit my

35:18

job and I'm going to try and make

35:20

it in television and but I had no

35:22

contacts. I obviously didn't know anyone

35:25

or anything about the industry so I thought

35:27

well with two thousand pounds that gives me

35:29

two months to make it before

35:32

I run out of money. So I quit obviously

35:34

my last day was on the Friday and I

35:37

did a TV presenting course on the Monday

35:39

which was Monday to Thursday and

35:41

when I was there one of the

35:43

girls who was doing the course was like oh

35:45

I'm an extraordinary Chelsea so I looked up the

35:47

production company which was Monkey Kingdom. I

35:49

saw that they hosted the red carpet of

35:52

the bastards and various things that I thought

35:54

well I'll go meet

35:56

them and tell them

35:58

I'm a presenter and then I'll

36:01

be the new presenter of the red carpet of the BAFTAs.

36:05

And so that's what I did. So on

36:07

the Friday, I went as

36:11

an extra on Made in Chelsea. And

36:13

then it was funny because at the time, Made in

36:15

Chelsea was huge. And all my friends watched it. But

36:18

I was always like, I don't like reality. I refused

36:20

to watch it with them. And

36:23

when they said, do you really feel the scene?

36:25

Or I think one of the boys fancied me,

36:27

and they were doing the speed dating. So they

36:29

were like, can he date you?

36:31

And I remember thinking, this is really funny

36:34

that my friends are going

36:36

to watch it and I'll

36:38

be on it. It was never really something that I

36:40

ever thought that I would do.

36:44

And then when they kept

36:46

trying to keep me

36:48

on, I was then like, well,

36:51

hang on a minute. This is a chance to

36:53

get an agent and to get a job. So I kind

36:55

of always did it. Never

36:57

because I thought I wanted to be on Made

36:59

in Chelsea. It was always a kind of an

37:02

in to the industry. But it just

37:04

wasn't a very pleasant

37:07

experience in my life. So whilst I'm obviously

37:09

really grateful for the platform, I also thought I got

37:11

a bit of a kind of like,

37:14

I had the

37:16

stereotype of being a reality star

37:18

without being successful enough at it

37:20

that it was like, well, at least I'm

37:22

rich and famous. So I was like, I'm

37:25

typecast, but I'm still broke. I was

37:27

like, this is shit. I'm

37:29

essentially an extra on Made in Chelsea. And it

37:31

was unenjoyable. But I then had to still try

37:33

and fight the assumption that

37:39

whilst she's just a reality star. But

37:42

I'm pleased that I kind of stepped away from it

37:44

when I did. I was only on it for like

37:46

two or three months. I wasn't really a big part

37:49

of it at all. But obviously, that

37:51

show is so huge that it

37:53

did allow me to get an agent and to

37:55

kind of go on to do other things. Why

37:58

wasn't it a long time ago? experience

38:00

particularly. What was

38:03

difficult about it? I remember when I

38:05

first went to film, no one

38:07

talked to me apart from Ollie

38:09

Locke and he was so

38:11

lovely and again it was playing down,

38:14

like playing into that huge insecurity I

38:16

had of being

38:18

in these posh aristocratic environments and

38:20

being the working-class girl and obviously

38:22

I'm not from Chelsea, I'm not

38:24

made in Chelsea. My dad

38:27

drove trucks and was a fireman. My

38:30

dad's got draw the accent so it kind of was

38:34

sort of like the insecurity that I felt

38:36

at school on steroids that

38:38

I didn't feel like I was worth being

38:40

on that show and

38:42

people just weren't very nice and I

38:46

remember even thinking

38:49

at the time like if I was on

38:51

a show like this I would try and make people

38:53

feel comfortable but

38:56

I very much felt like they didn't want anybody

38:58

to come in and sort of take their place

39:00

but I remember one day Ollie Locke coming to

39:02

talk to me and I was like, I

39:05

just feel like I don't fit in and I was like, my

39:07

bag's not even real mulberry. And

39:09

he was like, darling don't worry none of us is. And

39:14

yeah I think I

39:16

just so wanted to be liked and I was

39:18

so paranoid about not being like that. I'm actually

39:21

gonna say it was kind of like the first

39:23

sort of experience I had being

39:25

a bit bullied or made to

39:27

feel like I wasn't wanted then. It

39:29

just wasn't very nice and it really

39:32

confused me being part of something that

39:34

was real but then

39:37

after filming someone being like, I just said that for

39:39

the camera and I was like, oh my god this

39:42

is like my real life and my real relationship and

39:44

I don't understand and I think

39:46

some people are really made for it and really

39:48

thrive in an environment like that and I just

39:51

did it and my mental health

39:54

was like not good and I've also never been

39:56

very good at dating.

40:00

people that everyone else in your

40:02

circle dated and forgiving.

40:04

I don't know, it's just the whole thing to me

40:06

was I took to heart

40:08

and found really challenging. Now

40:10

that's the thing that I would find

40:13

is there's sort of almost sociopathic levels

40:15

of resilience you expect, emotional resilience you're

40:17

expected to have. It's like, oh they're

40:19

dating now and I've moved on because

40:21

it's been like two weeks. You know,

40:24

I find, and

40:27

that's the difference in nature of that kind of show, isn't

40:29

it? But I think you're absolutely right. I think your

40:32

eyes are... that

40:34

suits you or it doesn't. Yeah. You know,

40:36

and I think you've got to be wired

40:38

in a slightly different way.

40:40

And that's no disrespect, by the way, to any

40:43

of the people that do that show, but... And

40:45

I'm sure people would come up themselves differently now

40:47

with benefits of hindsight. Yeah,

40:50

I don't know, it was just

40:52

not a very good time in my life

40:54

and it was a very sharp awakening into

40:56

the sort of like celebrity world. And

41:01

what I find interesting is

41:03

that at that point as well, presumably you

41:06

didn't have much money. And so

41:08

you weren't going around in a limo or have a

41:11

driver or... I mean, honestly, I'm

41:13

going to say it was one of the

41:15

most financially difficult times of my life because

41:17

as I mentioned, I quit and I

41:19

had £2,000. I didn't, you know,

41:21

I had to pay my own bills

41:24

as everybody does. But when I

41:26

first quit, I started doing tip work, so I

41:28

would do anything that was... I

41:32

put flags on every seat as part

41:34

of the team in Wembley before football match.

41:36

I would wear coffin wear, I would sit

41:38

tops and handouts, fly it on the street

41:41

for anything. Serve cocktails

41:43

at events. And once

41:45

I started doing Made in Chelsea and once it

41:47

aired, I couldn't do that

41:49

anymore because people started recognising me. And also brands caught

41:51

onto it, so they were like, oh, we've got someone

41:53

from Made in Chelsea wearing our t-shirt being paid £10

41:55

an hour. So I had to kind of stop doing

41:57

all of that and I also had to be available.

42:00

for them to film

42:02

it that kind of like they're back and cool so I couldn't

42:04

really have a job and I remember

42:06

it was just the whole thing was ironic it's

42:08

like everybody thinks now that I've

42:11

done this show that I've got like this

42:13

sort of like silver spoon back to those

42:15

people now there's a brass band. A brass

42:20

band appears to be playing

42:22

I think there was something going on at Buckingham

42:24

Palace. I

42:26

think changing with art is happening I don't

42:28

mind it it's

42:30

very fitting for someone who was on Made

42:33

in Chelsea who's about to tell us how

42:35

broke she was on that show.

42:37

When at times when you were like I don't know if I've

42:40

got enough money for the day or... Yeah

42:44

I remember I go to a lot of events

42:46

because it is where I could get free food

42:48

so I'd stock up for my dinner and

42:51

I just felt but all very much

42:53

like now I'd be confident enough to laugh about

42:55

it and make it a thing but at the time I felt

42:57

like I had to pretend to be someone that I wasn't and

43:00

be in this weird celebrity world where I

43:02

thought everybody I thought like fame

43:05

meant that meant happiness and

43:07

wealth and I think lots

43:09

of people do which is why the appeal of

43:11

fame like it draws so

43:14

many people in don't they like I

43:16

thought that would be the answer to all

43:18

my problems and fix all my insecurities that

43:21

you know once I became famous then I could

43:24

do what I want and be who I wanted

43:26

and everyone would love for his sort of thing

43:29

and but yeah it was just a

43:31

really surreal experience to be broke so

43:34

I lived in Surrey because I had to move out of

43:36

my flat in London and a friend

43:38

of mine he was a rugby player

43:41

and I moved into him in his parents

43:43

house so my rent was 400 pounds

43:45

which is obviously much more manageable but every month I'd

43:48

be like where am I going to find that money?

43:50

I don't have 400 pounds

43:53

and so he would drop me at Richmond

43:56

because that's where he trained and

43:58

then I'd walk in from Richmond to Chelsea or

44:00

Fitton or whatever, and obviously I didn't tell anyone

44:02

and I kind of felt like it was that

44:05

sort of like fake it to make it. Yeah,

44:08

I mean it's almost like laughs all

44:10

looking back but I just was so

44:12

persistent, I just knew that I

44:15

just had to keep going in this

44:17

industry and obviously once I left Made

44:20

in Chelsea different opportunities came but

44:22

even my late 20s you know

44:24

I was living in a flat

44:26

that was pretty much crumbling in Kilburn and

44:30

until really I started to DJ I didn't

44:32

make any money and it is

44:34

a real struggle I think for anyone that's not

44:36

from a wealthy background as we know trying to

44:38

get into the creative world it's so hard because

44:41

you have to be flexible like you have to

44:43

be able to go to castings or auditions or

44:45

whatever it might be but also you do kind of have to

44:48

keep up appearances especially back then it was

44:50

all very smoke and mirrors wasn't it so

44:52

I'd be going to these events. There

44:55

is this article about people that go to the

44:57

opening of an envelope and I think I was

44:59

like one of them but I remember thinking like

45:01

because I get to eat and

45:03

I get free drink it was great because

45:06

otherwise I just couldn't afford to do anything.

45:08

What that tells me is that it's

45:11

the shame attached to it that when

45:13

things are secret they become shameful and

45:16

you felt you couldn't you

45:19

didn't have anyone particularly around you who

45:21

you know you can bond with someone

45:23

over that. I always say to people when you

45:25

go and see a bad movie if you go

45:27

and see it with someone it's

45:30

like oh we can laugh at this

45:32

it's an experience you enjoy it you sort of

45:34

see the funny side of it or you can

45:36

try and find ways to

45:38

get through the experience. On your own

45:41

it's the most depressing thing and

45:43

I think anything on your own like that it's actually

45:46

it's what you're going through but it's also the isolation

45:48

that I think. Personally I

45:51

think that's what's really tough. You

45:53

know when you're students and you're struggling everyone's struggling.

45:55

Yeah and actually they wouldn't have wanted me on

45:57

the show had they known who I was. So

46:00

that was the other thing, it's like I felt

46:03

like I didn't belong there and I didn't belong

46:05

there. But I

46:07

also felt like it was the way in which I

46:09

could have the opportunity to make

46:11

it in the industry. And obviously I

46:13

also didn't foresee that

46:16

it's kind of a double-edged sword, isn't it? Because once

46:18

you get time cast as a reality star, you have

46:20

to fight really hard to then overcome that. I

46:24

really hope you loved part one of this week's Walking the Dog.

46:26

If you want to hear the second part of our chat, it'll

46:28

be out on Thursday. So whatever you do, don't miss it. And

46:32

remember to subscribe so you can join us on our walks

46:34

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