0:06

Welcome to Wandering Tree Podcast

0:08

. I am your host , Lisa Am .

0:10

Yes , I've got to be honest about it . The

0:13

one thing that was

0:15

really obvious to me is the population

0:18

of certainly the Facebook groups and the communities

0:20

that I've been involved with

0:22

, which has mostly been digital , have

0:25

been female , or at least not

0:27

male .

0:37

Welcome to today's episode of

0:39

Wandering Tree Podcast . I am your host , Lisa

0:41

Am , and with me today I have

0:43

Andy Wallace , and he

0:46

is from across the pond , and

0:48

I'm going to let him kind of introduce himself

0:50

a little bit , give a background and

0:53

tell us about his

0:55

adoption story .

0:57

Hi Lisa , thank you very much . I

0:59

am Andy Wallace . I'm

1:01

from Grantham in the UK . I'm

1:03

50 years old this year , started

1:05

to look into the

1:08

effects of adoption trauma in my life and

1:10

how it's affected me , certainly in the last 10 years

1:12

. I was adopted in 1973

1:14

. It was a closed adoption then . It wasn't

1:17

until Well , I

1:19

mean , my adoption was very good . Compared

1:22

to some people's stories , mine was pretty

1:24

idyllic really . My parents were

1:27

great people and me and

1:29

my sister were both loved . So when

1:32

you read a lot of people's stories , certainly

1:34

on Facebook groups and things like that

1:36

, they're really hard

1:39

and mine certainly wasn't . We

1:41

all come to the same point at the same time

1:43

really . You get to sort of midlife

1:45

and then you realise that there

1:47

are things that you may have been affected

1:50

with that could have come

1:52

from your adoption and the more I looked into it , the

1:55

more I realised that was the case . And

1:57

the more I read and the more I listened to , the more

1:59

other stories

2:01

could well have just had my name written

2:03

on them . It was incredible and

2:06

I've struggled with my

2:08

mental health over the years , certainly over the last 10

2:10

years . It's only really this year that

2:12

I've really started to

2:14

come out of the fog , if you like , and

2:16

I can see where the issues are . So

2:19

, yeah , I've been really , I've

2:22

come to it really late

2:24

and I feel like I've

2:26

just had all of it just dumped on

2:28

me straight out of a bucket that's straight over

2:30

onto my head and I'm sort

2:32

of trying to make sense of it and

2:35

it seems to be happening really quickly .

2:37

Yeah , let's pause there for just a second and

2:40

take a step back . I appreciate

2:42

that you are willing

2:44

to share out . You're not looking backwards

2:46

to how you were raised

2:49

or the parents that you had , and I think I

2:51

heard a little bit of general appreciation

2:53

, which I know some people will translate that into

2:55

a false sense of gratitude , but

2:57

there are instances of the

3:00

journey through adoption . I think that

3:02

people are generally okay

3:05

with how they were raised and

3:07

how they've turned out . I think this is where you're

3:09

going . It does not mean that there still

3:11

are not effects of the trauma and

3:13

how you handle life and

3:16

then how you've reflected . So

3:18

I know that you have a passion for

3:20

health , so can

3:22

you share with our listeners a

3:24

little bit about some of your just general

3:27

personal struggles that you're starting to

3:29

identify and some key areas

3:31

that you know are part of a healing

3:33

journey for you ?

3:35

Yeah , the main issue for me really

3:37

has always been with attachments

3:39

in relationship and it's got an awful lot

3:41

of upset for me and for

3:44

the partners in my life , which has been

3:46

quite a few . It's caused depression

3:49

in me and anxiety in me and

3:52

that was the key driving force for me . I

3:54

wanted to find out how adoption

3:57

process , how my adoption , may

4:00

have affected my ability to

4:02

connect with others and certainly in

4:04

a romantic relationship

4:06

kind of way . I've

4:08

lost kind of friends over the

4:10

years just through my ability to back away

4:12

and shrink back .

4:14

Do you find yourself more attaching

4:17

or detaching ? I have experienced

4:19

conversations and then my own life

4:22

, both of those over

4:24

attachment and then immediate

4:26

detachment to build the wall up . Where

4:29

do you think you land on that ?

4:31

I have both of those things in equal measure

4:33

, and it

4:36

often shows itself in one

4:38

relationship . So I'll go into the

4:40

relationship a hundred

4:42

miles an hour , full on , looking

4:44

desperately , looking for that attachment

4:46

and doing everything possible to make

4:48

sure that attachment is solid and it's there

4:50

, and then invariably

4:54

, within 18 months , two years

4:56

an amount of time

4:59

I flip

5:01

over and go the opposite way , thank you

5:03

, and that's the thing

5:05

. That's the thing for me that

5:08

I really want to understand

5:10

more about , because that's the thing

5:12

that's affected most of

5:14

my adult life and I need to

5:16

know why that happens and

5:19

how it's happened . And I've seen

5:21

traces of it in the adoption trauma

5:24

things that I've read and looked at and

5:26

I can see it's definitely related

5:29

. But now I want to see more about

5:31

why it's related to me and how I dealt

5:33

with it , and that really is the key thing

5:35

for me . Icebot brings on all the other

5:37

little tiny things that come with it . I

5:39

say tiny , I mean depression

5:41

and anxiety are not exactly tiny , but

5:44

for me they're secondary to the main

5:46

. Well , I believe is the main cause

5:48

, and it's not until my recent

5:51

relationship , where I've

5:53

been with somebody since 2021

5:56

, and our relationship

5:58

is different because she's

6:00

not run away from me because

6:02

I've been odd and

6:04

I've done a flip-flop thing . She's

6:07

gone the opposite . She's gone round

6:09

the back of the theatre and started looking

6:12

in the back and trying to find out why , and

6:14

now you know , we're coming back together

6:16

, we're building things back up , and she's

6:19

involved in all the things that I'm

6:21

doing to combat this and learn

6:23

about it . She's just as fast

6:26

as I am , and for me that has been

6:28

incredible , and

6:30

so it's really given me the strength to go right

6:33

. I've got to a point where I feel solid

6:35

enough to be able to now investigate

6:37

this , find the solution for the sake

6:39

of those really .

6:40

Well , let's talk a little bit about your

6:42

investigative actions . What

6:44

kind of work have you been doing that is

6:47

getting you to these types

6:49

of conversations , the things you're doing

6:51

on social media ? I'd like us to

6:53

talk a little bit about that as well . And

6:55

you know how you want to get

6:57

past the next , whatever it is .

6:59

Yes , I'm still in the

7:01

process of finding a suitable

7:04

counsellor . I've had

7:06

counselling in the past . In

7:08

fact , I've had one counsellor that

7:11

I once went to

7:13

about ten

7:15

years ago , maybe a bit less , because I was suffering

7:17

from depression and it was all linked to a

7:19

particular relationship at the time and I

7:21

walked in and sat down and

7:23

she asked me what had brought me there , and the

7:25

first things I said to her was well

7:28

, first things , I'm

7:30

adopted , but I'm not going to

7:32

talk about that because I don't believe it's related and

7:35

looking back now I thought that was

7:37

crazy . So , yes , I'm looking for

7:39

another counsellor to

7:41

start that process , someone that deals with adoption

7:44

issues , and I believe I've found

7:46

one and that will start next week . But the

7:48

thing that's really started to bring me

7:50

into all this is my partner suggested that

7:52

I should start writing it down . Writing

7:55

is a

7:57

healthy thing to do . It's really good stuff . It helps

8:00

you look in wooden and investigate

8:02

yourself on the page , and I'd always

8:04

written a little bit here and there . I've got a

8:06

few unfinished books like

8:09

I'm about . I thought , well , I don't really

8:11

have the need to write

8:13

, but I'll try it . So I started to write

8:15

just about

8:18

contemporary things , recent things that

8:20

have happened that I think

8:22

might have been related , and before

8:24

I knew it , after about three weeks I've got sort of like

8:26

seven or eight down words , and that for me was

8:29

way beyond what I'd written in the past about

8:31

anything .

8:31

I think that's fantastic .

8:33

Yeah , I started to think , well , I

8:35

need . I started to get to the point where

8:37

I was going to write a book . I thought , well

8:40

, I'll write a book because people do it , and why

8:42

not ? And so I started at chapter one and

8:44

started writing and I got some

8:46

way in and then I started to feel

8:48

the pressure in able to complete the book . I

8:50

don't even know if I'm going to be able

8:52

to finish this . It's too much pressure . So

8:55

then I decided I was going to blog and

8:57

I thought I could sort of

8:59

narrow it down into smaller

9:01

chunks , into articles , and put that in

9:03

the blog . Even if it goes nowhere

9:06

, it doesn't matter , it's on , it's on the it's

9:08

on there . It's in an easier format

9:10

to be able to get my thoughts

9:12

down . But the more I did that , the more I was thinking

9:15

this should really be seen by the people

9:17

, not for my own benefit , but just on

9:19

the off chance it might just get somebody

9:22

else's mind working and thinking . So

9:24

then I started to share the blog online on adoption groups

9:26

, and that was the

9:29

scariest thing I've done for a while

9:31

, because I'm not a great lover of

9:33

social media . I get really anxious

9:35

about letting go of the gorilla

9:37

grip that I've got on my own

9:39

personal space and

9:41

for days after that first post went out

9:43

, I was shaking . I'm physically shaking

9:46

. For days I just couldn't get

9:48

rid of the anxiousness that was in and

9:50

I just kept going and I

9:52

just put a bit of it and I kept going and I've

9:54

written more and more and more

9:56

and more and more and more people have come back

9:58

with stories of how it resonates

10:00

with them and encouragement

10:03

to keep going . It's been absolutely

10:06

incredible and for someone that just

10:08

a few months ago thought

10:10

they were thinking things that nobody else has

10:12

ever thought about they were on their own

10:15

in their thoughts and their worries

10:17

and their life To find this huge

10:19

community of people that feel exactly

10:22

the same as me . It's just blown my little

10:24

tiny mind really .

10:26

So , andy , we've touched on a little

10:29

bit of you know some really

10:31

key trauma topics and how

10:33

they have impacted you personally

10:35

and your quick

10:38

immersion and a short amount of time

10:40

and having an overwhelming

10:42

feeling . Then also , at the same

10:45

time , the embracement of the community

10:47

. One of the

10:49

aspects that drew me to

10:51

you and a few other adaptees

10:54

is what I'm seeing

10:56

and I'd like you to talk about it a little bit A

10:59

movement in the community

11:01

where more gentlemen are

11:03

starting to talk publicly

11:06

, sharing out their story and

11:08

creating kind of a circle

11:10

of trust and

11:13

journey , experience

11:16

and positivity . So tell me

11:18

a little bit about how you have felt . Try

11:21

not to get too gender divided , but there

11:23

is a little bit of a difference in our

11:25

community . I'd really like to

11:27

allow our listeners to

11:30

experience that from

11:32

that angle , because it's a quick

11:34

, moving group right now and

11:37

I'm excited about it for male adoptees

11:39

.

11:40

Yes , I've

11:42

got to be honest . That is the one thing

11:44

that I really

11:46

was . Really obvious to me is that I

11:49

would have said 90%

11:52

of the population

11:54

of the Facebook groups and the

11:56

communities that I've been involved in , which

11:58

has mostly been digital , have

12:00

been female , or at least not

12:02

male , and out of that 10%

12:05

of males that are in , only

12:08

maybe I don't know maybe 50%

12:11

of those would choose to like , share , comment

12:13

. And it's really obvious when

12:15

you , when I put a post out , when I say something

12:17

, when I , when I , when I publish something , there

12:19

is hardly any male

12:22

voices coming back and hardly

12:25

any male voices sharing new

12:27

stuff or stuff about themselves or

12:29

aspects of their own adoption . I've

12:31

always been very open

12:34

, which is a strange way really

12:36

, because because inside I'm quite

12:38

a closed off wall building

12:41

kind of person , but

12:43

on the outside I'm , I'll share with

12:45

anybody , but if it becomes down

12:48

to me not really understanding

12:50

where my issues are , then

12:53

I end up closing off . But on

12:56

the whole I'm really open and

12:58

I find that not many men are

13:00

. I actually started

13:03

a male adoption group because

13:05

I didn't find many on Facebook

13:07

, because I thought maybe

13:10

it's the inclusion of women in the groups that

13:12

is causing a lot of the men

13:15

not to want to share , because if

13:17

a lot of the issues were based

13:19

on relationships , then

13:21

they may feel that they might offend the

13:24

opposite sex women , females

13:26

by their comments

13:29

. So I thought , well , let's

13:31

remove one

13:33

, remove the females from that

13:35

population and let's see . Let's

13:38

see what happens . I'm not ready

13:40

, but it's been going for about a week now , a week

13:42

or two . They are starting to start

13:44

into use the space and

13:46

I'm trying not to be too adminny and

13:48

I'm trying to leave the people to share

13:51

as well as I want really . So I

13:53

hope it grows and I hope it does become

13:56

something that people can . People

13:58

could use more and share more , because

14:00

I think it's important .

14:01

Yeah , I do too . I interviewed

14:03

a few gentlemen and I do want

14:06

to just make kind of more of a generalized

14:08

comment . I do think it might be a little more

14:10

difficult . I don't know why . I

14:12

can't even pretend to know why . Maybe

14:15

there's other societal stigmas

14:17

that we just have not tapped

14:19

into . I would use a similar

14:21

or a parallel area . I

14:24

put it from the perspective of tapping

14:26

into birth mother shame and

14:28

how hard it is for birth mothers

14:30

to speak about their shame

14:33

and so not being on the side

14:35

, you know , the other side of the gender coin

14:37

. I don't know what the stigma of quid or could

14:39

not be Right . I can't find

14:41

the relationship to it . I definitely

14:43

notice it and so I'm really encouraged

14:46

for our community where there

14:48

are opportunities . We've

14:50

talked a little bit about the way you've approached

14:53

life in the past and I see a theme

14:55

of it here a lot of rigor

14:57

, all in go for it . Do

15:00

you have examples of how you've

15:02

done that in the past and how you're transferring

15:04

that into this environment ?

15:05

to answer your success points

15:07

I've got one particular one actually that I'm just

15:09

writing about for the book , which is

15:12

not hugely related to adoption

15:15

, but I can see where there are elements

15:17

of me from the adoption in it , and

15:19

that is that a few years ago

15:21

I was a professional

15:23

photographer and I was busy . I

15:25

was a busy fall really . I was still working

15:27

full time and I had a photography

15:29

business as well and I also

15:32

wrote and delivered training courses

15:34

for beginners and I had a

15:36

camera club which I was running . I

15:39

also had built a photo

15:41

booth for weddings and events and things like that . You

15:43

can imagine how busy I was and

15:45

I'd got children at home . I was in a relationship at

15:47

that time . I never stopped . Well , one of

15:49

the people that I did some work for

15:51

was a local hospice to me and

15:53

I donated time to cover their events

15:55

for them , and I did that for a couple

15:58

of years and I was also a runner . One

16:00

day I sort of started to think that the

16:02

photography wasn't really . I didn't feel

16:04

like I was doing enough . I

16:08

felt the people in the button get pressed and

16:10

then maybe

16:13

it was a bit of a self esteem or something . I

16:15

didn't feel like I was doing enough . I

16:18

had a couple of days to think about it and then I sent

16:20

an email to one of the people there that said I

16:23

want to run five kilometers a day

16:25

for you for a year , and they loved the

16:27

idea , and so I did it . But one

16:30

of the things that made me do it more than anything

16:32

was somebody I used to work with . When

16:34

they found out I was doing , it , told

16:36

me that I was an idiot and I wouldn't be able to last

16:38

more than three weeks . So

16:40

I thought , well , now

16:43

I'm going to do it because you say

16:45

I can't , and so the part of it was about

16:47

as well , really . But yeah , I spent 12

16:49

months running at

16:51

least five kilometers a day , sometimes

16:53

twice a day , and sometimes

16:55

the software I used to track

16:58

the route didn't

17:00

record . So I'd just get home

17:02

, realize you hadn't recorded , turn around

17:04

and go straight back out again and do 10K that day

17:06

. I ran them half marathon in

17:08

that period of time as well , and I went

17:11

all out . I mean , I was on the news , I

17:13

was local radio , I was in the local

17:15

newspapers , I was doing videos

17:17

and talks , I ran

17:19

with the Football

17:21

Association . It was just went

17:24

crazy for it . It was everywhere and

17:27

we raised about £6,000 in the end . So

17:29

it was brilliant to do . But

17:31

now I'm writing about it because it's

17:33

not really written about and

17:36

I thought about it the other day and I thought surely

17:39

there's something in that that needs

17:41

to go in the book because it's just

17:44

on the block . It was just too full on for it

17:46

not to be important . So that is a real

17:48

, proper people please . The moment scale

17:51

of the heights of people , pleaded mountain

17:53

there .

17:54

Yeah , I was also going to add into it

17:56

, maybe a theme of hypervigilance

17:59

. Oh yeah , right

18:01

.

18:02

Yeah .

18:02

Yeah .

18:03

Yeah , yeah , definitely .

18:05

I think that I'm hearing from you

18:07

as well in our conversation . You

18:10

know just kind of how

18:12

it is to have your

18:14

early come out of the fog moments and

18:17

how your mind is trying to

18:20

rationale pretty much your entire

18:22

life . I've been there . I can relate

18:24

to that .

18:24

Yeah .

18:25

Doing the full reflection and

18:27

saying things to yourself that are associated

18:30

with . Am I depressed ?

18:32

Yeah .

18:32

Do I have anxiety ? So you've touched

18:34

on those two . Do I people please ? Oh

18:37

my goodness , do I people please ? I've heard that

18:39

for you as well . And hypervigilance

18:41

we just kind of added that in there , and so

18:44

it's a lot to rationale for that . And

18:46

I appreciate that you want to get to the root

18:48

, which is what that's your why , the

18:50

why . What's driving you is getting

18:52

to the root of all of those things

18:55

and sharing those out through the

18:57

, through your blog , through your social

18:59

media group and then

19:01

through your book . Where do you see yourself

19:03

going next ? I think there's some

19:06

educational aspect you have in

19:08

mind as well .

19:09

I have no idea . I am literally

19:11

unboggling as I'm going and

19:14

if you read the blog posts

19:16

from start to from when I first started

19:19

, which is not that long ago , two weeks ago to

19:21

now , you will see it's

19:24

obvious . You know my writing

19:26

style is lighter and I'm finding

19:28

more humor in things and

19:30

it's not as dark as it was right at the start . I

19:32

literally am sometimes learning

19:35

as I type . I go from not knowing

19:37

at the start of a blog post to

19:39

getting 60% there

19:41

by the time I finish . And I

19:43

am fascinated by my mental

19:46

health and mental health generally , because

19:48

although I'm not in the super

19:50

extreme end of any

19:53

condition , I have been pretty bad

19:55

. I mean , this year particularly was

19:57

I spent probably three months in

20:00

the darkest , lowest point . So it

20:02

fascinates me that I get to that point

20:04

and get out of that point . And so I've

20:06

started to taken on a

20:09

college course to a college in London which

20:11

is done remotely and that is just

20:13

to learn awareness of mental health

20:15

really , and it's only a few

20:17

weeks course and it covers every

20:20

aspect that you can imagine , but only

20:22

in a relatively sort of small

20:24

way . But it's teaching me about

20:26

how to deal with certain aspects

20:28

, how clinically it's dealt with

20:31

how it affects people , how it affects other

20:33

members of the family or carers

20:35

, and I think if I'm going to write about

20:37

things that are leading into

20:39

mental health , I should be

20:41

able to understand more of it . So

20:44

I just don't have a clue where it's going . I'm

20:47

just going from day to day and seeing where

20:50

it leads me .

20:51

Does that feel different to you than maybe

20:53

in the past as well ? Is this a new

20:55

adventure for you to not be so

20:58

in the grip of

21:00

control of what's going to happen ?

21:02

Oh , don't get me wrong , I'm still fully

21:04

in control . I'm still absolutely

21:07

gripped tight . That's

21:10

not gone away yet . I

21:13

don't know . That is the biggest problem . I think I

21:15

don't know how I'm going to let go of some of this stuff

21:17

, because I can talk about it all

21:20

day and I do feel like I'd let go of some

21:22

of it , but sometimes I haven't . Sometimes

21:24

that box is still shut and

21:26

this is why I'm not relying

21:29

on my own mind to get to the bottom

21:31

of it , like I've said . In one of

21:33

the blog posts , I said that I feel

21:35

like I know what my issues

21:37

are , but they're behind

21:39

the plate of glass and

21:42

I can't get to them . But I'll see

21:44

them and I can recognize them in the street

21:46

. I need a big

21:48

hammer to smash through that kind of glass so

21:50

I can get my hands on them properly , and I don't

21:53

feel like I'm equipped to do that on my

21:55

own . But knowing what they are and

21:57

being able to talk about them is the first step

21:59

really .

22:00

Yeah , I would venture , andy , a

22:02

lot of the listeners can relate

22:04

to that and exactly where you are as

22:07

well , I know it

22:09

runs through me . There are many days

22:11

where I wonder what's going

22:13

to be next . I know this

22:15

sounds maybe a little dark

22:19

in a weird way . Am I going to be able to survive

22:22

the next hit ? Can I take it Like

22:24

what's coming next ? Just grappling with

22:26

the anticipation and

22:28

not being in control and

22:31

the anxiety that comes with

22:34

that .

22:34

Well , that's a half a vision , isn't it , when

22:37

you're not aware of what's coming up , but

22:40

you're so looking forward

22:42

, to looking as far ahead as you can , to

22:45

see if you can spot that error , that fault

22:47

, that next pitfall . I suppose

22:49

, with what I'm doing now

22:51

, the work I'm doing now , is that , yes , you're

22:53

right , I'm not actually looking at

22:55

the pitfalls , I'm just blindly going

22:57

forwards and just accepting what happens . Really

23:00

. Yes , you're

23:02

probably right . That is quite a new thing for

23:04

me .

23:04

I do want to touch on another aspect

23:07

of your story , how we started

23:09

the conversation that you've had basically

23:11

a fairly ideal again we'll use

23:14

the word ideal childhood to adulthood

23:16

. Where do you stand with your biological

23:19

family ? When we talked about this in

23:21

preparation for this discussion , I loved

23:23

what you said .

23:24

Yeah , that's an interesting one , because that is something

23:26

that is prominent in adoption

23:28

community , isn't it ? When

23:30

what I wanted to do was find out

23:33

more information about where I came from , I

23:35

think that's in everyone everyone

23:37

that doesn't have that information , at least , when

23:39

I went through the process of being able

23:41

to get hold of my adoption

23:43

file and my original

23:46

birth certificate , and in that

23:48

information was obviously details

23:50

about my birth parents , I didn't

23:53

intend to look for them . I

23:55

went into this back in 1998

23:58

. Wasn't interested . I look

24:00

back now and think that part of it is

24:03

a big part of it is not wanting

24:05

to upset people . I didn't

24:07

want to upset anybody in my

24:10

adoptive family by making

24:12

any effort to find my birth parents

24:14

. Really , I mean my mom , my adoptive

24:17

mom . She was a little upset . She was

24:19

worried that I was going to find my other parents

24:21

and then leave them behind . Of course , that was

24:23

never going to happen . I've always maintained

24:26

that I only have one set of parents and

24:28

they're the ones that put all the effort in to bring

24:30

to the point there's a lot of love between

24:32

us and that's how it should be . I don't have

24:35

any interest in doing so . I

24:37

did actually speak to my birth mother . There

24:39

is some writing about this on the

24:41

blog . I did speak to my birth mother on the telephone

24:43

once and I was pretty much told to go

24:45

away and then they phoned back after

24:47

about 15 minutes and then we had a 20

24:50

minute conversation , which really

24:53

didn't fill me up

24:55

at all . It wasn't a good conversation

24:58

and I came away feeling almost

25:01

rejected again , and

25:03

that stayed with me . Later on , about

25:05

10 , 12 years later

25:07

, one of my other sisters found me and

25:09

I've had a great relationship with

25:12

her and it's been

25:14

really nice . It's been brilliant to find her . We

25:16

get on really well . I don't know how much

25:18

we look alike or whatever , but

25:20

it's been nice . What

25:23

I did find out was that her

25:25

adoptive mom had the opportunity

25:27

to adopt me as well and then chose not to

25:30

because of financial reasons . We had two

25:32

opportunities to be

25:34

together as kids and they all

25:36

lived on both . Really Even

25:38

now I found one sister , and

25:41

now I've got another , and now I've got brothers that

25:43

I don't know . I know there's two more

25:45

siblings out there , but I don't know anything about them

25:47

. I don't know where my dad is . He's not on my birth

25:49

certificate At this

25:52

point in time . I genuinely

25:54

don't feel any kinship with that

25:56

side of my life at all . My

25:59

original name was David and I

26:01

maintain that I don't

26:03

feel as much as if David died and

26:06

I'm just carrying the grief of that debt

26:08

and I don't think and I might

26:10

be wrong , but I don't think that I would benefit

26:13

from knowing more at this point

26:15

, because I feel that the issues I

26:17

live with are , yes , related

26:19

to my adoption , absolutely , but there

26:21

are no reasons why I was

26:24

adopted . I don't think they're gonna help me

26:26

. But again , I can say I might be wrong , time

26:28

will tell .

26:29

Yeah , I think that's a great perspective

26:31

. Well , as we start wrapping

26:33

up our conversation , we have touched on

26:35

again some pretty significant

26:38

things . What is

26:40

an item that you would want the

26:42

listeners to leave with knowing

26:45

about you , and where are you

26:47

, social media-wise , that if there

26:49

are other gentlemen listeners

26:52

that want to get into a more finite

26:54

safe space , where do they go ? Look ?

26:56

Okay , well , the driving force

26:59

behind everything that I've done so far has

27:01

been to find out about me , and then there

27:03

was the element of wanting to share

27:05

so that other people may find

27:07

something in that that resonates with them , and

27:10

that is what you know . I really hope that that

27:12

does help other people . The

27:14

blog is called who's

27:17

Wally because my name was Wally

27:19

. I just thought it really fits , because

27:23

I don't know who I am . I'm sure there is parts

27:25

of it that I don't understand . So

27:27

the blog is called who's Wally and the

27:29

book also be called who's Wally . The

27:31

male adoption group on Facebook

27:34

is called Mind Maintenance and

27:37

the who's Wally website

27:39

is who's Wally but Credit UK . So it's pretty

27:41

straightforward , and if anybody fancies

27:43

looking on there , that'll be fantastic

27:45

.

27:45

Well , let's close with this . If there was one

27:47

thing you had wished I had asked during

27:50

this conversation , what would it be and

27:52

what would be your answer ?

27:53

Yeah , I'm sure there'll be a hundred

27:55

questions that I'd wish you'd asked

27:57

me in about an hour and a half , but

28:00

as it turns out now , I can't think about it

28:02

.

28:02

I love that . I actually love that , because

28:05

that is is that not an adoptee

28:07

over thinker's mind right there

28:10

? That says nothing . Comes to my mind

28:12

. However , what

28:14

we're done talking , and

28:16

I decompress from this conversation

28:19

, I'm probably gonna think of about a million

28:21

things . Just to be clear , I'm gonna have

28:23

the same thing , Andy . I'm gonna be decompressing

28:26

from our conversation and I'm

28:28

gonna be like , oh darn , I really wish

28:30

I would have said this to him or asked

28:32

about this .

28:33

I think I covered everything that you know driven me

28:35

to do what I'm doing now , and

28:37

I genuinely can't think of anything now .

28:39

Well , as we close out , then , I would love to say

28:41

thank you for joining us . You're just

28:43

jumping right in and diving

28:45

, and cold water and all of the analogies

28:48

we could think of , and I appreciate it

28:50

and you are welcome back here anytime . I

28:52

look forward to continuing the

28:54

dialogue .

28:55

Yes , thank you very much . We enjoyed it . It's been good . Thanks

28:57

very much for giving us a chance to come on and

28:59

bow at my 50-year-old nonsense

29:01

.

29:02

Thank you for listening to today's episode . Make

29:05

sure to rate , review and share

29:07

. Want to join the conversation ? Contact

29:09

us at wanderingtreeecom . Although

29:23

I will repay you .