0:06

Welcome to Wandering Tree Podcast

0:08

. I am your host , Lisa Am .

0:13

Within the first week or so we had

0:15

exchanged photos and I

0:17

think in the beginning she was a little guarded

0:20

because you know , you hear the stories of

0:22

the scams . To be honest , I was a lot

0:24

guarded .

0:36

Welcome to today's episode of Wandering

0:39

Tree Podcast , and I have some special

0:41

guests with us , kind of taking a little bit of a different

0:43

spin on some of our conversations

0:46

For our listeners who have been with us multiple

0:48

seasons kind of dove a couple

0:51

of times into the birth mother

0:53

perspective . And today we're going

0:55

to not only dive into

0:57

the birth mother perspective but

0:59

we're going to marry that with the adoptee

1:02

perspective through a fantastic

1:04

duo , linda and

1:06

Louise . Welcome , ladies .

1:08

Well , thanks for having me , lisa Am , we're

1:10

so glad to be here with you .

1:12

Yeah , we're glad to have you here as well For

1:14

today's conversation . It might be

1:17

in our listeners best interest

1:19

to kind of pare it down to two

1:21

different versions of the story Linda

1:24

, your story as the birth

1:26

mother , and then Louise , your story

1:29

as the adoptee . And then we'll bring

1:31

it all back together at the end and

1:33

talk about where you guys are

1:35

relative to reunion and

1:37

you know how that's taken place , some

1:40

of the expectations , some of the challenges , and

1:43

then you know , just to kind of set our listeners up

1:45

for success . We'll end it

1:47

off with a little bit about you guys in terms

1:49

of advocacy and , as you guys know

1:51

, I love to lift people up as it relates

1:53

to connection to the community . Well , we've

1:55

got a lot to talk about today . We should just

1:57

jump right in . How about with you , linda ? Why don't we

2:00

start out with your story ?

2:01

My story . Well , my story is

2:03

not dissimilar to that's a

2:05

real word to other birth moms

2:08

Seems like . Well , most of us are

2:10

creative , let's be honest with high aces scores

2:12

. I was born into a house that

2:14

was pretty volatile A

2:16

lot of emotional abuse , a lot of bullying

2:19

. I had no grandparents , aunts

2:21

, uncles , cousins . I had one

2:23

younger brother . I had no mentors in

2:25

my life , so I was a pretty solitary

2:28

person and with a lot

2:30

of emotional toxicity running

2:32

around the house . I kept to myself . Unfortunately

2:35

, I was an avid reader from an early

2:37

age and so stuck with my books and

2:39

stuck with my animals and stuck by myself

2:41

, pretty quiet , pretty chill

2:43

, pretty not engaged with a lot of people

2:45

because of the nonsense going on in my home . I

2:48

developed rather early , getting my

2:50

period at 10 and becoming

2:52

the same size I am now when

2:54

I was in fifth or sixth grade . So my

2:56

body jumped ahead

2:58

and my mind soon followed

3:00

and it was the 70s . Yes

3:02

, I dated a lot in high schools

3:04

. I met Louise , my daughter

3:06

, who I last knew adoption in 1979

3:10

in high school and we started to date

3:12

after we

3:15

graduated and promptly got met pregnant

3:17

right in June . So

3:19

, yay , overachieving

3:21

there , knew that I couldn't probably

3:24

stay there because my house was

3:26

so abusive . Referring

3:28

back to what I talked about early and I'm talking

3:30

about this for the first time , so I'm bearing my soul for

3:32

you , lisa and well , we love it .

3:34

So take your time and take a deep breath and

3:37

what we might do just to kind of kind

3:39

of move forward here a little bit and give

3:41

you a minute . You've mentioned a couple things , so

3:44

I'm going to have you go back a little bit for

3:46

clarity and I think our listeners

3:48

would appreciate it . You mentioned

3:50

birth mothers , high

3:52

ACEs score , and

3:55

I'm not sure everybody knows what

3:57

that is . So do you want to give a little more context

3:59

around that ? Then we'll give you the next

4:01

question to kind of inject just off

4:04

of that little bit we've already heard from you

4:06

, which I know my heart's starting to , you

4:08

know , come out in empathy , and I know the listeners

4:10

will too .

4:11

Adverse childhood experience is what

4:13

ACE stands for , and a high score

4:15

is due to emotional abuse

4:17

, physical abuse , sexual abuse , neglect

4:20

, no adult supervision

4:22

. No , there's a number of factors

4:24

that will create a high ACE score . Basically

4:27

, it's a . It's a pretty failing

4:29

of a childhood . If you listen

4:31

to other podcasts and your podcasts

4:33

and you listen to other birth mothers , you listen

4:35

to their history and there's no

4:38

wonder they didn't have love at home

4:40

. I didn't have love at home . Yes

4:42

, tendency is you're

4:44

going to look for love if you're not a lot of self

4:46

worth and you think that you should

4:48

save yourself for something bigger and

4:50

better . So you just want to have some love

4:53

. You know , love the one you're with kind

4:55

of a deal .

4:55

So say one more time what does ACEs

4:58

stand for ? It means adverse

5:00

childhood experience Adverse

5:03

childhood experience Okay

5:05

, well , we need to measure ourselves on some

5:08

scale , I guess . Right , and those types

5:10

of skills help us understand

5:12

ourselves in our past . So

5:14

with that I want to just connect another

5:17

dot real quickly as well . So

5:19

you've met Luisa's with us today and you

5:21

indicated that you met

5:24

and dated her birth father

5:26

and married him . Did I get that

5:28

correctly ?

5:29

for clarification Well

5:31

, the order was me being born

5:33

and then , a year later , you got married ?

5:36

Yeah , we got married after we lost her .

5:38

So jumping back into your story

5:41

and knowing that you are burying

5:43

your soul and you're in a safe place to do so

5:45

, no criticisms from me , clearly

5:48

no criticisms from Luisa . I can see it

5:50

right now . Where do you want to pick up out ?

5:52

I talked with . Jim is my husband's

5:55

name , and and we , you

5:57

know , we discussed we're pregnant

5:59

, what are we going to do ? And I

6:01

said I couldn't go back to my house . I mean

6:03

, I was living in my house , but it was very toxic

6:06

and two years before I

6:08

had had an abortion because I had been

6:10

with another young man and at that time

6:13

there was no discussion about what I

6:15

went through . There was no therapy

6:17

, there was no , it was just what

6:19

you did to us and then it was shut

6:21

down and we don't talk about it . So

6:23

that was , the abortion happened and then it was put

6:25

away and we went on with our lives . Well

6:28

, nothing that had changed in my house . In fact , it became

6:30

more toxic and met Jim

6:32

, dot dot dot had Louise

6:34

, got pregnant with the Louise , so knew

6:36

I couldn't go home . So and

6:39

and I had gone to Jim's house

6:41

it was a house that was , there

6:43

was a lot of laughter and it seemed like they loved

6:45

each other . It was a big thing . I , you know , I again

6:47

I said I had no family . He had a big family

6:49

and it seemed like a

6:51

loving , warm place and I

6:53

went over there quite often and got to know them

6:55

. Well , we spoke to them and they this

6:58

was in Michigan , they had moved to Massachusetts

7:00

and they said come to Massachusetts

7:03

, stay with us and we'll figure

7:05

it out . Jim drove me to Massachusetts

7:07

in September when we were starting college

7:09

. I dropped out and he

7:12

left me there and then he went back to Michigan

7:14

to go to college . I stayed with

7:16

his family , his two younger sisters

7:19

and his parents , who were alcoholics

7:21

. That I did not realize until I was

7:23

there and it

7:25

was a surprise , and

7:27

a really terrible surprise

7:29

. The two younger sisters and I

7:32

helped each other because during the day

7:34

it wasn't a big deal , but the alcoholism

7:36

came out at night and there was viciousness . The

7:38

mother would either go after the girl , one of the girls

7:40

, or myself . The girls and I

7:42

kind of hung together and I

7:45

was in hell because I had left

7:47

the frying pan and

7:49

gotten into the into the fire

7:52

. Long distance was a big deal . So

7:54

my way of communicating with any friends

7:56

I had two friends that I communicated . It was

7:58

with pen and paper and stamps , so

8:00

I didn't have a lot of support . My family

8:03

was out and so I was living in this

8:05

hellacious place just

8:07

getting through , and they had already

8:09

decided what was going to happen . They . I was

8:11

told when I got there that I was going

8:13

to give my baby away and

8:16

that's what the church wanted and that's

8:18

what had been decided . I thought I was going to

8:20

be safe , was not ? Jim returned

8:23

after his semester of school

8:25

. Louise was born in the end of

8:27

March . I had her . I went

8:29

through Catholic social services what

8:31

to do with this pregnancy ? Of course

8:33

the counselor , social worker , did

8:35

the usual . You know the usual story that you hear

8:38

from birth mothers . You know this is the only thing to do . It's

8:40

the right thing to do . Other You're not

8:42

worthy of this . You know another family

8:44

is waiting . You're going to love your child

8:47

so much you're going to give it away because that makes

8:49

sense . Just the usual stuff that we usual

8:51

coercion that that these agencies use

8:53

was used on me and

8:55

I thought she was my friend . I

8:57

didn't realize that I should probably

8:59

be talking about this and having some therapy

9:02

and and dealing with it . But no , it

9:04

was just to get the baby , get there , get

9:06

me to sign the papers and be done with it .

9:08

I heard a lot of themes and

9:11

I just want to pick them out a little

9:13

bit . So the theme of isolation

9:16

, to begin with , in your home , someone

9:18

that had made a previous decision

9:20

relative to birth or not , that maybe

9:23

it had not been worked through . The need

9:25

for love , feeling safe . So

9:28

now I've got , we have the theme of I

9:30

need to be safe . Then I heard trust

9:32

in there .

9:33

Maybe if you would take a few more minutes

9:35

in that uncomfortable space and talk

9:37

a little bit more about the coercion piece

9:40

of that , that's the funny thing is that

9:42

time and I know that's due

9:44

due to trauma and it's so

9:46

frustrating because there's things I

9:48

try to remember and I can't

9:50

. I can't tell you exactly how many

9:53

times I went , but I know it was a number

9:55

of times . So I ended up in Massachusetts

9:57

in September and I had her in March . So

10:00

I don't remember if I saw them , this

10:02

social worker , once a month . I don't

10:04

remember . I do remember

10:06

being told many times don't

10:08

have the things that I need to have

10:11

a baby , you don't have the skills

10:13

. There are other people waiting . This

10:15

is an answer to their prayers , it was . It was Catholic

10:17

social services . So , yeah , it was a lot of religious

10:19

stuff placed on me . I was last

10:21

then and for a person who's come from a

10:23

home that was like that . And then I go to

10:25

a safe house where

10:27

there I'm not Catholic and I'm

10:29

less than , and then the

10:32

social worker , who is supposed to be a professional

10:34

helping me , is Saying that I'm less

10:36

than and I don't have anything to offer and

10:39

that it will be okay . She told

10:41

me you will forget this , you'll move on with your life

10:43

, it will be a nothing , don't even talk

10:45

about it . So that's a

10:48

Professional saying to disassociate

10:50

awesome .

10:51

You're like check , I got you , I heard you , did

10:53

you Forget ? And what was

10:55

life like for the the subsequent

10:58

years ?

10:59

Yeah , well , when I gave birth to Louise

11:01

, I was alone in the room . No

11:03

one had prepared me for childbirth , not

11:05

not the mother that in the home that I stayed

11:07

with , not the social worker , not anybody . So

11:10

I'm in the hospital , I have her . It was a difficult

11:12

birth . I'm alone and of course , after

11:15

I have her , I'm put in a

11:17

room away from the you

11:19

know , general Population . So

11:21

I'm again being kept away . I'm

11:23

, you know , you're ashamed and

11:26

don't be with other people . Nurses

11:28

would come in and sneak in and sneak out , and

11:30

I only got to see Louise

11:32

once . You know , held her and I

11:35

counted your toes and her fingers and I looked

11:37

at her and I held her and I sobbed and I sobbed

11:39

and I Sobbed and I didn't

11:41

want her to go . When she , when I carried her

11:43

, I sang to her , I loved

11:45

her , I , she was my world

11:48

because I had nothing else going at that

11:50

point . It was . I didn't want her to leave . My

11:52

body didn't want her to leave , and then she was

11:54

gone . And then I

11:56

go back to the house and

11:59

this family becomes

12:01

hostile and they say I have to leave immediately

12:03

and go back to my house . I'm

12:06

traumatized to leave my daughter . I've

12:08

been told not to say anything , not to talk to

12:10

anyone . No one wants to talk to me . I

12:12

get on a train , I go to Michigan , I

12:15

come into my house and it was brutal

12:17

. All I heard was what do you ? What

12:19

are people going to think about us ? You

12:22

know , it was all about Appearances

12:24

for their sake . Never asked how I

12:26

was , never anything . To this day

12:28

I'll have you know no one

12:30

, none of the pain the grandparents Ever

12:33

asked me how I was and how I was doing

12:36

over the years .

12:36

Not , not a one that's sad in itself

12:38

, but one of the things I heard

12:41

you say is that you would sing to

12:43

her while in utero . You , you

12:45

know you loved her . That is

12:47

a warming thing for adoptees

12:49

to hear hard and warming

12:52

because it does allow To

12:55

connect to our feelings

12:57

of loss with your feelings of

12:59

loss , you knowing it

13:01

wasn't that it wasn't that easy .

13:04

Oh , I even took the diaper off and looked . I

13:06

wanted to see everything . I wanted to make sure

13:08

everything was right . Did you name her ? Yes

13:10

, I did .

13:11

Her name was Jennifer and on her she

13:14

has her father's last name and the

13:16

reason I asked if you named her was because

13:18

we do end up having multiple

13:20

names His adoptees and , as

13:23

you're , as you're holding someone

13:25

and naming to you , that's

13:27

probably who she always has been and

13:29

to be honest , she was always my Jennifer

13:31

, always from the I was pregnant , I

13:33

knew I was gonna name her Jennifer .

13:35

It was an important name to me for other

13:37

people that were in my life , and

13:39

I knew she was gonna be down .

13:42

Let's , let's move forward to you

13:45

married . You knew what

13:48

did life look like .

13:52

Life was Well

13:56

after I lost her , all right

13:58

. So I had no religion in my life . It

14:01

didn't take , and alcohol and

14:03

drugs don't take for me . For some reason I

14:05

couldn't hide behind those things . I couldn't use them as

14:07

crutches , so food became my crutch

14:09

and I quickly gained 70 pounds . I

14:12

Worked seven days a week

14:14

. You know . We got married . We

14:16

put our lives together . You know what

14:19

went on . I kept

14:21

busy . I had

14:23

Family

14:26

I'm putting an air quotes . Family was important

14:28

to my husband . So

14:30

, yes , his family was in our lives

14:33

and my

14:35

family was in our lives as and

14:37

I tried to be the perfect daughter-in-law

14:40

and I

14:43

Forgot Everything

14:46

that they put me through when I lived with them and

14:48

the nonsense that aided

14:50

me a lot through the years . I

14:53

it's only just been recently since Louise

14:55

found me that I've understood why that was

14:57

so hard . Because I had locked that

14:59

down . I Never told

15:01

anyone about being pregnant and

15:03

losing Louise no one . There

15:05

were only two friends that knew and I

15:09

locked it down good , locked it , ate

15:11

it , ate , ate my way there , waited

15:14

to have another child because Didn't

15:17

think I was worthy to have another

15:19

child . And then I

15:22

did get pregnant and my

15:26

body didn't want to let that baby go

15:28

. I , I . That was a

15:30

terrible delivery and I know

15:32

it was because my body was like , no , you're not

15:34

getting it let and you're not gonna lose another child . So

15:36

I try to hang on to her inside of me

15:39

. After I had her , I Lost

15:42

all my weight and I discovered exercise

15:44

and that's what saved my life it . As long as

15:46

I was busy doing something physical

15:48

, I could turn my brain off and not

15:50

think about it because , yeah , louise was always

15:52

on my mind . You know , holding another

15:54

baby . I thought about my baby . I thought

15:56

the baby I lost and and

15:59

I know that I Wanted

16:01

to mother the hell out of everything . But

16:04

I knew that I there was a part of me

16:06

being held back because

16:08

of what I Went through and

16:11

I know my two children that I did raise

16:13

suffer from that . They they had

16:15

a great child , that I was the hell of a mom

16:17

, but emotionally I was not

16:20

as fully there as that I should have been

16:22

because of what I had been through . They

16:25

grew up knowing that they had a sister

16:27

and I went

16:29

on with life but continued

16:32

to Internalize

16:34

the , the loss . I

16:37

would look at the moon and think of her and hope

16:39

she was looking at me . I'm not going to be

16:41

exercising .

16:41

That's how .

16:42

I dealt with it , never talked to anyone and

16:44

of course you know Autoimmune

16:47

disease wise , all

16:49

that stress , all that wear and tear , I developed

16:52

ulcerative colitis and I that is an absolutely

16:54

an autoimmune disease that is directly

16:56

related to mind , body

16:58

, emotional stress

17:01

and there's no doubt that I

17:03

developed that because of what

17:06

I've been through well , I

17:08

heard in that that you would look at the moon

17:10

and think of her

17:12

, as you know , under

17:14

the context of is she also looking

17:16

at the moon , trying to create that connection

17:18

right .

17:20

But I also heard that you didn't stop

17:22

thinking about her and I'm sure those feelings

17:24

ebbed and flowed and there were Intense

17:27

times . I would suspect

17:29

birthday was pretty intense for you . I

17:31

would also suspect

17:33

mother's day was pretty intense for

17:36

you , and holidays , even

17:38

with you know a fully . You

17:40

know with your family , writing regardless of

17:42

that . It doesn't diminish any of that , but

17:45

we just know Through

17:47

conversations like this and

17:49

lived experiences are common traits

17:51

. I think now's a good time

17:53

to transition our conversation

17:56

over to Louise , because you

17:59

two have a really cute

18:03

demeanor . I wish that

18:05

the listeners could see you , but

18:08

what others aren't

18:10

seen and I'm going to convey , is

18:12

the whole time you were talking , linda Louise

18:15

was looking at you in 100%

18:17

support . It was a

18:19

fantastic thing to see . So

18:22

, with that said , what I want to

18:24

do next is Louise . Let's

18:26

talk about this story from your perspective

18:29

. You're the adoptee , your

18:31

life , your challenges

18:33

. Go for it .

18:37

Okay , I was born in 1980

18:40

in Massachusetts and it was a closed

18:42

adoption . I always

18:44

knew I was adopted and

18:47

five and a half years after

18:49

my adopted parents got me

18:51

they got another

18:54

child , a boy . So I had

18:56

a younger brother who was adopted , but

18:59

not for my mom , and

19:02

I would consider

19:05

myself the good adoptee . I was the

19:07

one that people pleased , I

19:09

made sure everybody was okay

19:12

and I was kind

19:14

of my brother's keeper a little bit . When

19:16

he got in trouble I would get in trouble because

19:18

I didn't stop him from doing some shenanigans

19:21

. So he was the one that acted

19:23

out and was the angry adoptee and

19:25

I was more the good adoptee

19:27

. At the time I didn't understand

19:29

what that was . I've only recently

19:31

realized what that is . Family

19:33

that had me , they

19:35

loved me , but they

19:37

didn't get me or try to get

19:39

me or understand me , and that

19:42

is all stuff that I'm unpacking . In the last

19:44

two , three years since reunion

19:46

I got heavily involved

19:48

in Martial Arts , which helped

19:51

me get through everything

19:53

, because that was my safe

19:55

place , that was my

19:58

person . My teacher

20:00

was just everything to me . He

20:03

helped me with leadership and kind of

20:05

just finding who I was

20:08

and who I wanted to be and just being strong

20:10

. So I really appreciate

20:12

him and I think that helped

20:15

me get through what a lot of adoptees

20:17

go through and I kind of

20:19

missed that a little bit because

20:21

of him and the safe space

20:23

that he gave me .

20:24

Well , let's let you catch your breath , kind of collect

20:27

your thoughts a little bit , and I'm going to ask a couple of different

20:29

questions . The good adoptee fair

20:31

number of us Toad

20:36

the line . Usually that's what it means

20:38

, right , Very empathetic to

20:40

everybody else , very much the caretaker

20:43

. But in all that

20:45

you were talking about things you were going

20:47

through and so what

20:49

were some of your internal thoughts

20:51

that you weren't expressing during

20:53

that time period ? Through this mentorship

20:56

you were able to start working it

20:58

out through your body and that . But just

21:00

kind of share with us some of your internal

21:03

thoughts that you weren't able to talk through

21:05

and with your adopted family .

21:07

I always knew I was different . I always

21:09

knew that they didn't get me

21:11

, so I just kind of did the things that

21:13

were expected of me to make sure that I

21:16

didn't get trouble or that I didn't make

21:18

any waves or cause any problems . They

21:20

were dealing enough with my adopted brother in

21:22

terms of behavior issues and things like that , and

21:25

I recently have learned

21:27

that I am neurodivergent . I always

21:29

thought I was a little odd , a little weird , but

21:31

now everything makes a whole lot more sense

21:33

. So if I had been with

21:35

my birth family , I think they would have realized

21:38

that more and helps me to understand

21:40

it and kind of work with

21:42

it a little bit , as opposed to trying

21:45

to fit into the role that my

21:48

adopted family had kind of put me in . There were

21:50

certain expectations that I had to live up to

21:52

and it

21:54

wasn't like they forced me to do it , but being

21:56

the good adoptee , I wanted to do

21:58

that to people please . So when they had

22:00

parties I would do all the

22:03

help with the prep and help with the breakdown

22:05

. And only recently I've

22:07

kind of discovered or realized

22:09

that I kind of felt like I was on

22:11

display because they would have these big

22:14

family events or big parties

22:16

or whatever with like neighbors and everything , and it

22:18

was always to kind of like show me off

22:20

. You know , show my me and my

22:22

brother off a little bit , and

22:24

I never . I'm an introvert

22:27

and I don't really like being the

22:29

center of attention for anything , so it always

22:31

made me very uncomfortable , but they never really saw

22:33

that . It was more . They

22:35

wanted to have the gatherings

22:37

, they wanted to have these get togethers with

22:39

like 30 , 40 people and it just

22:41

was very overwhelming for me and

22:43

I always would like shut down for a couple days after and

22:46

I never really understood that until the

22:48

last couple of years . So it's

22:50

been kind of like a big awakening . But all

22:53

the way growing up I knew I was adopted but

22:55

I had this real drive to

22:58

send a letter to my birth parents

23:00

. I wanted them to know I was alive and that

23:02

I was okay . I didn't understand why

23:04

I had that drive , but I really really

23:07

knew that that was what I needed to do and

23:09

I was told at 18 , I could reach

23:11

out to them . So I contacted

23:14

the adoption agency when I was 18

23:16

and they had indicated

23:18

that the records are closed

23:20

but if I wanted to I could send a letter

23:22

and it may or

23:24

may not go to them and I also had

23:26

to pay a large fee of like 300

23:29

or $400 for a letter that might

23:31

go somewhere or it might not and

23:33

I just at the time I would tell me if you can

23:35

forward it . Why would I put the time and effort

23:37

in writing a letter and send it to you and pay the money

23:39

so that ?

23:40

just didn't sit well with me . I want to go backwards

23:43

a little bit , not much , but

23:45

just a little bit . And you mentioned neurodivergent

23:49

. So what were the behaviors

23:51

of your childhood that

23:53

you now have figured out through

23:55

adulthood that have

23:57

lent you to that ? Can you explain that

24:00

concept a little bit more to some

24:02

of our listeners ?

24:03

So for me and really my

24:05

mom has been the one that helped me to realize

24:08

a lot of this she noticed

24:10

early on when I found her that

24:12

I give a script of about

24:14

20% of who I am and I

24:16

can give that no problem to anybody , no

24:19

big deal . It's getting

24:21

beneath that 20% that

24:24

it's really hard for me to let people in

24:26

. I like to be alone

24:29

, I like to read , I like to . You

24:31

know , I did a lot of sports , I kept

24:33

busy , kept active , but

24:35

I didn't have a lot of really close , deep

24:38

friendships In college . I had

24:40

a couple of really good roommates and

24:42

college friends that I'm still friends with to this

24:44

day and they kind

24:46

of took me under their wing and I

24:48

kind of say I was sheltered , like self-imposed

24:51

shelter . I kind of created a shell around

24:53

myself and like everything in the outside world

24:56

was happening but it wasn't happening to

24:58

me . I was there and I participated

25:01

but it wasn't like it didn't come

25:03

in . Of course we all took abnormal psych

25:05

in college so everyone was diagnosing each other

25:07

. So I believe OCD and some other anal

25:09

retentive properties were kind of discussed

25:12

and thrown about . They did

25:14

help to socialize me a little bit

25:16

more and make me more open to

25:19

letting people in . I think

25:21

I never really felt comfortable sharing

25:24

with my adoptive family

25:26

very much about who I

25:29

was , what my emotions were , anything like that . Sometimes

25:32

I would , but often I didn't . And

25:35

I did run into the issues where sometimes

25:37

I would tell my adoptive mom something and then she

25:39

would tell everybody else and so

25:42

like , where's the trust in that ? So

25:44

that made me pull back a little bit

25:46

more and the college friends helped to open

25:48

me up and kind of get me to do

25:51

more social things .

25:52

Okay , so that's really a good rundown

25:55

of that and let you pick back up the

25:57

letter . Okay , so the letter After

25:59

college .

26:01

Massachusetts had passed a law and

26:04

I read in the newspaper my adoptive

26:06

mom had read in the newspaper and sent

26:08

it to me that they were going to make a registry

26:10

so I could register to be connected

26:12

with my birth family . But I was like

26:15

, well , let me wait until it's actually

26:17

on the books for a little bit . Make sure there's some people

26:19

, because if I go in now I'm going to be the only one on

26:21

there . Let me see how this goes

26:23

. Well , it turns out . A couple

26:25

years later the funding ran out or something

26:27

happened with it and that whole registry went away . So

26:30

that was kind of disappointing and I thought , well

26:32

, that shop's gone . Then

26:35

I started to hear about DNA and I'm like

26:37

, hmm , I don't really

26:39

want my genetic material out there , but

26:41

if that's the only way I can find them

26:44

, maybe I'm going to have to do . It Got

26:46

married when I was 30 , had

26:48

my son at 33 . And that was

26:50

the first person I met

26:52

who looked like me . He looked like

26:54

a mini me , but

26:56

slightly tanner it was . It was

26:58

a very interesting thing for me because

27:00

I never really thought about that . I

27:02

never . Well , with my neurodivergence

27:05

I tend not to look at people's faces . I

27:08

kind of have a little face blindness so

27:10

I never really focused on that , but when I saw

27:12

him , all I could see was that

27:14

looks like me . That's so weird and

27:17

that really opened up more emotions for me

27:19

and more feelings . Having that and

27:21

bonding with him , my

27:23

husband and my father-in-law they ended up like

27:26

2017 , they got

27:28

some . My father-in-law bought us like

27:30

National Geographic DNA kits to see

27:32

like our heritage . He thought I'd be able

27:34

to connect with my birth family too that way . But

27:36

he didn't understand that . That wasn't the one that did

27:38

that . It just gave you like your percentage of your

27:41

this French and this German . After

27:43

we took it , my husband said

27:45

, okay , you got your results . Did you get connected with

27:47

anybody ? I said , well , that's not the right test

27:49

. And he said , well , we should get the

27:51

right test . How about you just get that ? So

27:55

that was given to me for Christmas 2017

27:58

. And around February

28:00

of 2018 , I said you know what I'm

28:02

going to do it ? And they had like some sale for ancestry

28:05

. It was like half off or something like that . So I bought

28:07

the kit . I sat on it

28:09

for a couple of weeks . I wasn't ready

28:11

to take it because I still was hesitant to let

28:14

my DNA be out there with like commercial

28:16

whatever . So I

28:18

finally took it . I was told that the results

28:21

were going to take like six to eight weeks . I

28:23

think I got them in four . So

28:25

I got the results in May

28:27

and I

28:31

was immediately matched with three potential

28:33

first cousins . So I then

28:35

got the little non-identified paperwork

28:38

from my file that my adoptive

28:40

family had . That was like the only documentation

28:42

I had , and then you know just a general

28:44

synopsis of description and you

28:46

know ethnic background and that kind of stuff . So I

28:49

kind of typed some of that into the

28:51

Ancestry chat and I messaged

28:53

all three of the first cousins and

28:56

one I got no response from . The other one said

28:58

hey , I'm going to check with my dad . I don't know who you

29:00

are or how you could be connected to the family . The

29:03

third one took a couple days and then

29:05

I got a message back and she

29:08

it was a first cousin who

29:12

knew my birth dad was

29:14

related to him and she gave

29:16

me my birth mom's

29:18

email address and said you found

29:21

them and this is their contact

29:23

info . And I

29:25

then spent hours

29:27

just like , okay , I

29:29

got to write a letter .

29:31

I got to write a good letter In my head .

29:32

I kind of been writing the letter for years but not

29:34

actually written it down . So I sat

29:37

and I think I stayed up late one night after

29:39

my son went to bed and I just typed it and

29:42

I sent it . I emailed it to her

29:44

and she likes to

29:46

refer to it as my resume letter . So

29:49

again , giving kind of the 20%

29:51

, the like you know , above

29:54

the ground overview of my life

29:56

, and it really made it seem like

29:58

I had everything put together and everything

30:00

was all good and in my head everything

30:02

was really good , like I was fine

30:05

, everything was good . Turns out it

30:07

wasn't , but that I didn't unpack

30:09

that for a year or two after . We

30:12

then started exchanging emails

30:14

and like we would email like every

30:16

day and we were sending messages back

30:18

and forth . And then I

30:20

think so that was in May and

30:23

in June we had our first phone call and

30:27

then we would talk to each other once a week . We had

30:29

a set schedule of like Thursday , from

30:31

like seven to eight or eight to nine we would talk

30:33

, and that was the opportunity

30:36

for me to hear my mom and

30:38

my dad's voice and for them to hear mine . And

30:41

I remember you told me later

30:43

that I sounded just like one of

30:45

my aunts and it weirded you out . You're

30:47

like Whoa , that's so weird , your

30:49

voice is identical , that's crazy .

30:52

It was crazy .

30:53

And that's like your first instance of genetic

30:56

mirroring and an outside

30:58

of the birth of your son . So to hear that

31:00

, you're like , oh well gosh

31:02

, I wonder if that's good or bad . And but at

31:04

the same time , you're like I sound

31:07

like someone in my family . Yeah

31:09

, or I look like someone in my family

31:11

, and it's such a like out of body

31:13

. And I don't know how many times I've

31:15

shared this , so forgive me for all those that have

31:17

shared it a few times . I've had two instances

31:20

of oh boy . One was

31:22

a biological sister . When we were on a zoom

31:24

call , my son came

31:26

around the corner , looked at her , looked

31:28

at me , and was freaked out because he'd never

31:31

seen anyone . What's the story ? Yeah

31:34

, he'd never seen anyone that looked like me

31:36

, Right ? I mean , he just hadn't , and

31:38

so it was surreal . The second

31:40

one was so I'm

31:42

pretty connected to my maternal first

31:44

cousins , two of them great women

31:46

, fantastic humans . I don't

31:49

know what we were doing . We were doing Snapchat and

31:51

we were using one of the lenses and the

31:53

picture . You know where it does like two people together

31:56

and the picture came back and where it's

31:58

just really showed your face and our faces were

32:00

almost the same . Another very surreal

32:03

moment , Like you can

32:05

look at people and say , oh yeah , he's got

32:07

Uncle Joe's eyebrows Right

32:09

. But to experience that as an adult

32:11

is just such

32:14

a surreal feeling . You know it really

32:16

is and it's hard to explain .

32:18

It's really bizarre and like within

32:21

the first week or so we had exchanged

32:24

photos and I think in the beginning

32:26

she was a little guarded because you

32:28

know , you hear the stories of the scams

32:31

.

32:31

I was a lot guarded . I was a lot

32:33

guarded , but as soon as she sent

32:35

the pictures I was like nope , that's my

32:37

daughter .

32:39

There she is , she looks like her siblings

32:41

.

32:41

Yes , yes , we all got the same eyebrows

32:43

. They're like basically identical , and

32:46

our faces are very , very similar and

32:48

our hair color is very , very close and

32:50

the family resemblance is very

32:53

, very noticeable and that was a little weird

32:55

for me . I was like holy honey

32:58

.

32:59

Yeah , that's the other part too . You look like

33:01

me , no , no , no , you look like me . Right

33:04

, I was here first Just

33:06

check the oh , you can't check that

33:08

birth certificate .

33:09

But let me tell you .

33:10

I was here first . Oh

33:15

, that's awesome , all right . Well , you

33:17

guys are in reunion . I'm

33:19

going to let you guys figure out who talks

33:21

next and what you want to share , but

33:23

let's just kind of talk about , maybe

33:26

, at minimum , how long

33:28

, and some of the , some

33:30

of the wins and maybe some of the not

33:32

so many wins or , you

33:35

know , oh gosh , expectations

33:38

.

33:39

And that's , that's the weird thing about both

33:41

of us . Neither one of us went

33:43

into reunion with any kind of expectation

33:46

. For me , she was always

33:48

a baby . I could not let her grow

33:50

up in my mind because

33:53

I'm not there , so how could she possibly

33:55

be growing up ? So she was

33:57

a baby until she . We contacted

34:00

each other . So I had zero

34:03

. I was just . She could walk around

34:05

, was like cool , I didn't have to change

34:07

your diapers , so

34:10

I was just in awe of this wonderful

34:13

woman . Now in my life that was my

34:15

daughter , so I was just

34:17

a God . I was just just

34:20

amazed .

34:21

So we had our first phone call in June

34:23

of 2018 . And then , in July of 2018

34:27

, we met in person . I go

34:29

to when I was looking at colleges

34:31

, so many schools in Michigan were sending

34:33

me those you know those big packets like

34:36

come to our school . And I was what in the hell

34:38

am I going to go to Michigan ? What's in Michigan

34:40

? And then work

34:43

stuff happened . Like my husband , he

34:45

was going to get a transfer and Detroit

34:47

was one of the options and we're like we can buy a really

34:49

nice house , but I don't know what kind of job we're going to get

34:52

. That's probably not going to work for me , so no . And

34:54

then my current job like they kept trying

34:56

to send me to train people and do work

34:58

in different places in Michigan and I kept

35:00

resisting . But then , once I

35:02

found her , I was like , okay , I'll go . So

35:05

I went and I just extended my

35:07

trip a little bit so it captured

35:09

the weekend so I was able to visit with them

35:11

.

35:12

And yes , it was a proud mother moment because

35:14

she got the company to pay for her reunion

35:16

trip . Yeah , that's pretty awesome .

35:19

Sometimes business travel has

35:22

a slight benefit . Yes

35:24

, yeah , no shame in that at all , Once

35:26

you've been there for a week . If I have to

35:29

stay another day , so be it , or two . I'm

35:31

not asking you yeah , I'm not asking you , to pay

35:33

for all that stuff . I'm already there that

35:35

there's a you know a fine line between

35:37

on that . But that is one of

35:39

the small perks of business travel

35:41

for sure . Well , let's cut on that

35:44

weekend , First time

35:46

meeting . You're painting a very rosy

35:49

picture . We're way up here

35:51

at a hundred thousand feet . Was

35:54

it rainbows and unicorns ? Was

35:56

it awkward ? Like

35:59

really weird ? You said , let's get to the

36:01

root .

36:02

I thought I'd be clever and bring

36:04

a it's a girl balloon

36:06

to her , because I figured she didn't have

36:08

it . You know a baby

36:11

shower . So I thought I'd be funny . I'd be like

36:13

, yeah , it's a girl , you know , celebrating

36:15

that your girl's here . So

36:18

I got a balloon and I brought it All your

36:20

cards .

36:20

Yeah , and .

36:20

I brought some car , I brought like a Mother's Day

36:23

card and it was adorable

36:25

.

36:26

She had a birthday . Because it was my birthday , she

36:28

had a birthday card for that year and then she

36:30

had another car to make

36:32

up for all the cards she missed because

36:35

we weren't together . So I was so touched

36:37

.

36:38

But she just came and gave me the biggest hug

36:40

.

36:40

Well , explain to . So your dream

36:42

was to knock on my door . Well

36:44

, the balloon . That was her dream . Well , I heard

36:46

the cars coming down the road , the dogs

36:49

are going off . I'm out the door

36:51

. I pull her out of the car , throw

36:53

my arms around . Yeah , I blew her surprise

36:55

completely .

36:57

And it was the longest hug I think I've ever had

36:59

in my life . I'm not normally

37:01

a hugger , I don't usually like people to touch

37:03

me , but that I was like , okay

37:07

, this is okay , I can do this . But

37:09

then when we went in and you sat and you kept

37:11

staring at my face you couldn't look

37:13

away and it was just . I could tell that you were

37:15

like weirded out by it , but

37:17

also like you just wanted to absorb

37:20

it and it was a little weird for me because I don't like

37:22

people looking at me . So but

37:24

then you held my hand and you

37:26

kind of shared some stuff and I

37:29

could see the pain a

37:31

little bit and I had no concept

37:33

. I hadn't done any research on adoption , didn't

37:35

understand the birth mother's perspective , didn't

37:38

know what she'd gone through , just went in

37:40

totally blind , had no fantasy

37:42

of who they were going to be or anything like that . And

37:45

we kind of got into know each other through email and

37:47

texting and phone calls and

37:49

we just sat and you brought me into

37:51

the back room and you showed me like my little baby

37:53

bracelet and the little picture

37:55

and I could see the like

37:57

, the pain and but the love

38:00

and that you wanted to know me

38:02

, but it was still really painful and you explained

38:04

it to me later that at some point me

38:06

there was the most joyous and

38:09

also the most devastating , because it was

38:11

like I was lifting her up but

38:13

also stabbing her in the chest . Just

38:15

because of that that you know both

38:17

feelings . So that was it really made

38:19

my heart like reach out to you and I just

38:22

I wanted to be there for you and

38:24

I wanted to know you because I thought you were pretty cool

38:26

. At one point I told her , even if

38:28

you weren't my mom , I would want to be your friend . I

38:30

kind of like you and we've kind

38:32

of been doing that .

38:34

That's so cool , that's really cool

38:36

. So how does that make you feel into hearing

38:38

that now , at this , on this

38:40

day ?

38:41

It's that that my

38:43

daughter is in my life and that she is my

38:45

friend is . You

38:47

know , growing up , I always wanted a sister

38:49

, I always wanted a close friend , and I never had

38:51

one and I gave birth to my friend

38:54

.

38:57

So I think that's actually a really important

38:59

distinction from the concept

39:01

of your meeting for

39:04

the second time she's an adult and

39:08

so to to try

39:10

to create a different mother-daughter

39:13

bond which we might

39:15

label as traditional

39:18

. It's difficult

39:20

at this age right , it's difficult

39:23

as two adults who

39:25

have traversed life post

39:28

that event Doesn't

39:30

mean the journey stopped , by no means am I indicating

39:32

that but have traversed

39:35

life and lived experience to

39:37

create that very mother , mothering

39:39

, daughtering bond

39:42

. And so I wonder

39:44

if you guys subscribe to this theory

39:46

a little bit , which is , yeah , we're going

39:48

to be friends because at minimum , we can

39:50

be really good friends .

39:52

Well , I think we met as adults so

39:54

we and we communicated a lot

39:56

explaining who we are and

39:58

we really opened up to each other . And you

40:00

don't really trust people very much to open

40:02

up , so for you to let me in and for me to let you

40:05

in , those were big deals and

40:07

it just kind of happened organically

40:10

. We didn't like make it happen , it

40:12

just happened and we just kind of bonded

40:14

.

40:15

It was it was really nice to see

40:18

and there is something you

40:20

know different personalities get

40:22

along better with other personalities and

40:24

fortunately , our personalities just

40:27

meld beautifully together and

40:29

we are great friends .

40:31

And we learned that my neurodivergence likes

40:34

to communicate by text or email

40:36

initially and does not enjoy

40:38

phone or in person very much . So

40:40

we communicated the right way for

40:42

me so I felt comfortable and then

40:44

I opened up to you and I think that

40:46

made you feel comfortable with opening

40:48

up to me . I think it was a lot of give

40:51

and take and just opening space

40:53

for the other to like be

40:55

able to walk through and to

40:57

explain and to share .

41:00

And because I wanted to know everything about

41:03

Louise . It was the

41:05

first time in her life she really had to think

41:07

about who she was , why she was

41:10

, and she would , I and

41:12

she'd have to think about

41:14

herself , and then she'd have this

41:16

realization while she was telling

41:18

me . So it was like it

41:20

was very therapeutic . It was crazy . She learned

41:22

about herself by introducing

41:25

her self to me . It

41:28

was marvelous .

41:30

I had done zero self reflection and had

41:32

not really looked into my I just , you

41:34

know , keep plugging away , keep going forward . So

41:36

when she wanted to really understand

41:39

and know I had to then go back and

41:41

go okay , why do I do that ? How

41:44

, like I had to be able to understand it to be

41:46

able to explain it to her . And then that helped me

41:48

understand myself a lot more , which is

41:50

when I realized that I'm neurodivergent and we have

41:52

other things too .

41:54

But yes , I can relate to

41:56

the reflection component of it and then

41:58

the answering of so many questions

42:01

. Putting all of the puzzle pieces

42:03

together , that is , I think , a very common

42:05

thing . That happens for

42:08

adoptees who have met or are in reunion

42:10

.

42:10

Now I do want to say we've kind of painted a

42:12

lovely reunion and everything's going

42:15

great . But I will say that

42:17

the first year or two was rough

42:19

.

42:20

Well , let's get to those rough parts , because that's

42:22

reality too . Right , that is really

42:24

reality . We also know

42:27

there are simple , cold

42:29

heart truths to

42:31

this that are not rosy

42:34

, not perfect . So why don't

42:36

you guys share a little bit of those experiences

42:38

so that our listeners can go

42:40

okay , it's

42:42

okay if I experience that or if

42:44

I feel that way .

42:46

Well , in the beginning , when we were communicating

42:48

, there were times where she would go

42:50

dark . It would be silence

42:53

. I would send messages and I wouldn't get

42:55

anything back for a couple days and

42:57

I was like , did I offend her ? Did I upset

42:59

her ? What did I do wrong ? And

43:02

then she would come back when she was

43:04

ready . But it was because she was processing

43:06

the trauma and the pain and all that . She needed

43:08

time to kind of get

43:10

it together to be able to come back . And

43:13

she didn't have

43:15

my trust . She

43:17

didn't trust me fully yet . She wanted to

43:19

, but it wasn't that . She wanted to show it

43:21

and build it . So I think that that

43:23

was hard and

43:25

I didn't understand what was going on , because I really didn't

43:28

understand the birth mother perspective at all . But

43:31

, as you've opened up and shared with me , that just

43:33

made me want to know more and to be supportive

43:35

of you and other birth moms , because

43:37

you guys got a broad deal too .

43:40

When she did come into my

43:42

life , I was ecstatic

43:44

. But I crashed hard

43:47

and I was like I don't know , if it hadn't

43:49

been for cycling I called it ride and cry

43:51

I'd get on a bike and ride

43:53

my ass off and just sob , just sob

43:55

. And there

43:58

were times I couldn't respond to her because

44:00

I was overwhelmed , and

44:02

so we got to a code where I could tell her

44:05

I'm in a dark place , I'm

44:07

going to be gone for a while , I'll

44:09

be back . But I got a process . I got

44:12

to think I

44:14

was so sad . I was so

44:16

sad because it had , all you know , 38

44:19

years locked away and here

44:21

it was , plunked back in the middle

44:23

of my face and I had

44:26

to deal with all the things I never

44:28

even thought about dealing with .

44:29

Well , you were afraid of even telling your friends and

44:31

like I was visiting you and I was like , do you

44:33

want me to hide Because , like I

44:36

look like my siblings ? If someone walks up to us

44:38

on the street , they would go . That's

44:40

not so , and so who

44:42

is that ? Why do they look identical ? What's going

44:44

on ?

44:45

Did you really seriously just say you

44:47

asked if you needed to hide .

44:49

I said I would wear a bag and

44:51

I told her in a way , Because I

44:53

knew like I could feel like the tension

44:56

and like the nervousness , and I was

44:58

, like it's no big deal to me , I don't care , I'll throw

45:00

a bag in my head . Whatever you need to do , however

45:02

, we need to make this work .

45:04

And I was like absolutely not , I

45:06

am proud that you are my daughter . I'm ashamed

45:08

and mortified that I went through

45:10

what I did and I lost you , but I'm

45:12

very proud that she's my daughter and no

45:14

, we're not hiding you . And , yes , it was

45:16

very difficult telling my friends , oh

45:18

, my God , it was difficult , it was , it

45:21

was . It was the worst

45:23

, absolutely worst . And , yes , my

45:25

colitis absolutely flared

45:28

. It was bad , it was a

45:30

summer of hell and

45:32

I wanted to know about

45:34

her . So she would send things to me

45:36

, like you know , pictures and

45:39

things , and not realizing

45:41

that I was grieving

45:44

for everything I lost

45:47

.

45:47

She would . I sent a form of a Dapti

45:50

bingo to her , basically , but the birth mother version

45:52

. So I was like checking off all the wrong

45:54

things because I was doing what

45:56

I thought was the right thing to do and the right

45:58

thing to say . Because of what society ? Apparently

46:01

, we all read the pamphlet as adoptees . I

46:03

don't remember reading it , but we all regurgitate

46:05

the same crap , the same rainbow and unicorn

46:07

. So I was doing what I thought

46:09

was the right thing and when I stopped

46:12

doing that , I stopped hurting her

46:14

so much and I stopped causing more

46:16

problems and we were able to move forward . So

46:19

that was big . For when I realized

46:21

that , I was like , ooh , I need to stop that .

46:23

And I was like a favorite moment . A favorite moment , lisa Ann

46:26

, was when she sent me the picture

46:28

with just texting she sends

46:30

me the picture of her

46:32

actual adoption , with

46:35

she's sitting with the judge when they sign

46:37

the paper . She sends this to me . I threw

46:39

my phone across the room , I didn't say

46:41

anything to her , I just , you know , I

46:43

knew I had to get my negative out

46:46

, but I never said , I never told

46:48

her .

46:48

I didn't know that . That was a few years ago , yeah .

46:52

But I was like are you freaking

46:54

, kidding me .

46:55

So my idea and things like that . So I had

46:57

taken a snap of like five or six photos

46:59

that they had sent me and I sent I and

47:02

I didn't really think about it or pay

47:04

attention . I was just like , oh , these

47:06

were sent to me . They said that they might want

47:08

, you know , she might want to see them . I'll take

47:10

a picture and send it to her , not thinking

47:13

like , oh , that was , yeah

47:15

, that could be hurtful .

47:16

I will give you some grace on that , because

47:18

I don't know if I had had those pictures

47:21

, so I didn't have those pictures . I don't have very

47:23

many pictures of me until I'm like six

47:25

months old and so , but

47:27

if I had had those pictures , so I was

47:29

a year or older , I

47:32

was , I was a father . Yeah , I

47:34

was right at this . I was right at about the six

47:36

month mark . I don't know if I would

47:38

have had at that time , any presence

47:40

of mind . That's why I'm giving you grace

47:43

to know not to send that . Or to send that I

47:45

wouldn't have . I wouldn't have thought of it just like , yeah

47:47

, I wouldn't have thought of it any differently because there hadn't

47:50

been enough connection . And again

47:52

, depending on where you are in your journey , it

47:54

could be all the way back to you

47:56

know , where we have fear of upsetting

47:58

someone or we feel obligated to be

48:00

happy , go lucky and grateful . I'm

48:03

so thankful . Thank you for giving me a way . Thank

48:05

you for relinquishing me Right . Thank

48:07

you , you gave me a better life , not a different life

48:10

, but a better life , even though we don't know if it's better

48:12

or different . We don't know yet . And so

48:14

, yeah , I'm going to give you just a

48:16

little bit of grace . Go ahead , take it .

48:19

I fully admit that I made mistakes . I

48:21

made a lot of mistakes , I mean everybody does . You're

48:23

kind of figuring out . There's no , there's no

48:26

rulebook or or directions

48:28

and everybody's different and I think everybody

48:30

needs to take figure out how they communicate

48:32

and how they can talk and open up to other people

48:34

.

48:35

And the times that she did do those

48:37

things again , I never told her

48:40

how it hurt me . It didn't

48:42

matter . I mean , I was hurting so much . Anyway

48:44

, I mean , continue to stab me . I still want to

48:46

know you , I still want to love you , I

48:48

still want to be there for you . So

48:51

it didn't matter what she sent

48:53

me . I was going to take

48:55

it because it was worth it , because I wanted

48:58

to be with her .

48:59

Yeah , so it's the rewards and benefits right

49:01

. Pain , reward and benefit . Yeah , and

49:04

that pendulum swings on both sides

49:06

of this conversation . It

49:08

swings just as heavily for

49:10

birth mothers as it does adoptees

49:12

and everybody in between . So well

49:15

, this has been a fantastic

49:17

journey of your guys's reunion

49:20

and stories individually and bringing

49:22

it together . It's hard , it's hard to

49:24

determine what are the right things to

49:26

do and the wrong things to do , which is why we consistently

49:29

say every time , as a

49:31

podcasting entity , we're just

49:33

talking about lived experience . I mean , you

49:36

mentioned it , there is no book , there is no charter

49:38

. You can listen to all

49:40

of the great , fantastic podcasters

49:43

out there . You're going to hear some common

49:45

themes , some common stories , and

49:47

then you might find something that is different

49:49

. You're like , oh wow , I

49:51

didn't think of that , I never thought about sending

49:54

the picture of the judge day

49:56

the day . Oh , that's

49:59

all I can say to that right . So well

50:01

, how do you guys go forward ? How

50:03

are you guys going to continue to go forward

50:05

?

50:06

We are spending a lot of time

50:08

in learning about adoption

50:11

and how we can support others and

50:13

how we can make needed changes , because

50:15

the common narrative is

50:18

wrong and it's not

50:20

adoptees lived experience . It's

50:22

what society and the organizations

50:24

and the religious groups have

50:27

told us . That's what it is , and

50:30

I think COVID

50:33

was actually a blessing in disguise because it

50:35

forced us to kind of be together . We

50:37

were actually on our way to an in-person

50:40

support group in DC when

50:43

DC shut down for COVID in

50:45

2020

50:47

. And Michigan wasn't really safe for her

50:49

to go back to , so she actually stayed with me for

50:51

a couple months and we really got

50:53

to know each other . We cooked in the kitchen

50:56

, we did things together and

50:58

then we found some of these online support

51:00

groups . We went to everything

51:03

we could , just to learn and to be

51:05

there , and I just

51:07

listened and didn't

51:09

say anything and just tried

51:11

to absorb as much as I could , and I recommend

51:13

that to anybody Like I went into Adopti

51:16

Twitter and I just watched and read

51:18

everything . I didn't get involved because I didn't have

51:20

the knowledge base to be involved . Anything

51:23

I would have said could have been another Adopti

51:25

bingo type garbage that I had done to her

51:27

. So I just sat back

51:29

and I watched and I learned and I found

51:31

the people that spoke to me and

51:33

wrote things that I was feeling or

51:35

thinking but couldn't give word to , and

51:38

there's so many of us out there that

51:40

go through similar things . There's common

51:43

things in there , there's feelings and connections

51:45

and all that . And I think

51:47

, just finding the support groups getting out

51:50

there and then listening to other people not

51:52

just like adoptees , I also listen

51:54

to birth parents and it really

51:56

helps me understand the picture better and

51:59

to be compassionate and empathetic to

52:01

everybody involved in it . You know

52:03

, yep , cause there's Trump

52:05

, there's Hertz from on . You know

52:07

both sides , yeah .

52:09

COVID was great for us in

52:11

that we spent

52:14

time learning about

52:16

adoption land and I

52:18

learned about true

52:20

adoption . True , you know their

52:22

lived experiences and I heard their stories

52:24

and I sat in support groups with them and

52:27

I told them my story so they could understand

52:29

what a birth mother was like , cause you

52:31

know you're sitting in a group talking to someone

52:33

who mother has denied

52:35

them again knowing her , and

52:37

my heart bleed . So I try

52:39

to explain to the adoptee

52:42

why their mom may be doing

52:44

it and the work that she needs to

52:46

do to come to the table to be

52:48

supportive for the child

52:50

she lost . So we learned a lot

52:52

, we listened a lot . We joined some organizations

52:55

. I came out of the fog , she

52:57

came out of the fog . We have spent

52:59

time working on OBC bills , writing

53:02

letters , making phone calls

53:04

. I my one . A very

53:07

another proud moment for me is , through the

53:09

Catholic mothers for

53:11

truth and transparency , with

53:14

getting the OBCs bills

53:16

passed through Vermont and Connecticut

53:18

. They set out a call

53:20

for a document to be sent to the

53:22

Vatican and my essay

53:24

is in the Vatican right now to

53:27

through the Catholic mothers for truth and

53:29

transparency and I'm proud that my words

53:31

of my , my experience , are

53:33

in the Vatican for people to , to hear

53:36

and see , and we want to continue

53:38

being there for others

53:40

, learning more and and helping

53:43

with with legislation when

53:45

we can . I know I'm I've

53:47

just got involved . I know Michigan has some

53:49

a bill coming up and I I'm going to be

53:51

pounding those representatives

53:54

and senators , driving them crazy

53:56

. You've mentioned groups and

53:59

I'm about community , and so we met at

54:01

an event the friendships that

54:03

we've made through Concern United

54:05

Birth Parents and through National

54:07

Association of Adopted People and Parents

54:10

, and adoption network is amazing

54:12

. Shout

54:15

out to Candace Cahill , marcy

54:17

Keith Lee , jennifer Falsing

54:20

. I mean , these are wonderful , wonderful

54:22

people and you're instantly connected

54:24

because you understand each other . But

54:27

with these people that I've met through these support groups

54:29

is is just amazing

54:32

, and that we can lift all of ourselves

54:35

up with each other and

54:37

for each other is a beautiful

54:40

, beautiful thing , and I'm I'm proud to be

54:42

part of this community and I can honestly

54:44

say several years ago I would

54:47

never have said that about adoption

54:49

, but I'm very proud to be with

54:51

adoptees and birth moms .

54:53

And and and I just appreciate

54:55

the . I've had the opportunity to

54:57

connect with the international community so I'm

54:59

in contact with adoptees from the UK and

55:01

Germany and Australia and Canada

55:04

and there's so much commonality

55:06

Like , yes , we are the worst , we're

55:08

very profit driven , but

55:10

they're also going through a lot of the same things

55:12

that we are . And some of them are getting apologies

55:15

and listening to this Scottish

55:17

apology and the Welsh apology

55:19

and Australian apology , I

55:22

didn't know that that would mean something and

55:24

it wasn't perfect . Like they missed a lot

55:26

and you know , not very much

55:28

given to the adoptees , but , man , that

55:31

that was important . And like

55:33

I can't imagine what it would be like

55:35

if we got that in the US when

55:37

the oh my God like mind

55:40

blown that , but it wouldn't be so meaningful

55:42

for so many adoptees .

55:44

So well , I think we're ready to close out for today

55:46

. I want to thank you both for coming on the

55:48

show and being so open and

55:50

honest about your experience and

55:52

sharing that with this group

55:55

of listeners . We appreciate

55:57

it . I appreciate the connections we're making

56:00

in the friendship we're building , and so thank

56:02

you very much for being here today . Thank you

56:04

, thank you for listening to

56:06

today's episode . Make sure

56:08

to rate , review and share . Want

56:11

to join the conversation ? Contact

56:13

us at wanderingtreeadocdcom

56:15

.