0:04

Welcome to Wandering Tree Podcast . I

0:06

am your host , Lisa Ann .

0:09

And so , ultimately , I think the

0:11

shift comes when we realize that

0:13

losing ourselves is the greatest tragedy

0:15

of all , abandoning our

0:17

truth is the greatest tragedy

0:20

. It's the greatest loss when

0:22

we leave ourselves behind .

0:36

Welcome everybody to today's episode . It's

0:38

a pleasure to be here today with our guest

0:40

. I'm going to read a little bit about her in

0:42

a couple of minutes , but I just want to share out

0:45

that . Her credentials

0:47

really sat heavy with me

0:49

in the context of I almost

0:51

felt like I wasn't going to be able to measure up and

0:53

made me a little nervous about this episode

0:56

. But at the end of it all I am

0:58

so thankful she's here . I'm going

1:00

to share a little bit about her

1:02

and then I'm going to turn it over to her

1:04

so she can tell us also

1:06

a little bit about her adoption

1:08

story . So , with that said , I'd

1:10

like to introduce Michelle Madrid

1:13

. She is the author of

1:15

an upcoming and soon to be released

1:17

book called Let Us Be

1:19

Greater a gentle , guided

1:22

path to healing for adoptees

1:24

. She is also going to be launching

1:26

a podcast here in the next couple

1:28

of weeks or so and it is going to be

1:30

labeled Electricity of you

1:32

. We'll touch a little bit on that as

1:35

well today . Michelle is an international

1:37

adoptee , a former foster

1:40

child in the UK and

1:42

an adoptee empowerment life

1:44

coach who has been recognized

1:46

as an Angels in Adoption

1:49

Honoree by the Congressional

1:51

Coalition of Adoption

1:54

Institute , ccai . And if

1:56

that isn't enough

1:59

for all of us , she has been inducted

2:01

into the New Mexico Women's

2:03

Hall of Fame for her work in adoption

2:05

. Currently she lives in Los

2:07

Angeles and you can visit her online

2:10

at her website , which will drop

2:13

in our show notes . But for kicking

2:15

us off , it is TheMichelleMadridcom

2:17

, and so , with that said , welcome

2:20

, michelle to the show . It is a

2:22

great pleasure to have you here today .

2:24

Thank you so much for having me . I'm honored

2:26

to be here with you and with everyone listening

2:28

.

2:29

Well , thank you . If

2:31

you don't mind , let's start out with a

2:34

little bit about Michelle and her

2:36

adoption story before we

2:38

jump into the book itself

2:40

.

2:40

Absolutely . If I take you way , way back

2:43

, I was born

2:45

in the United Kingdom , the daughter

2:47

of an English woman

2:49

and my father my

2:52

first father was Spanish , first

2:54

mother English . My mother was

2:56

married with three children , but

2:59

she wasn't married to my father . She

3:01

and my father had an affair and

3:03

I was the product of that affair , and

3:06

so complicated times

3:08

, right Decisions of what to

3:10

do and ultimately

3:12

the decision was made to place

3:14

me in foster care . I

3:16

was placed into foster care as

3:18

a baby , but not after

3:20

having spent some time with my

3:23

first mother . She needed close

3:25

for me . She held

3:27

me and then she

3:29

drove me with her husband to my

3:31

foster mom , my foster carer

3:34

, and she left me there . I

3:37

have read in my foster records

3:39

that when she left me , it was

3:41

a winter day and

3:44

the foster home was , as

3:46

they put , cold and chaotic , because there

3:48

was something wrong with the chimney and there were like

3:50

workers around trying to fix it , but it

3:52

was cold and chaotic . My mom walked

3:55

away and that's where my

3:57

journey to adoption began

4:00

, inside of foster care . I should mention

4:03

, because I think this is

4:05

pivotal for me or it's poignant

4:07

for me , it's important for me to say

4:09

because it's part of the pain

4:11

points of my own personal existence , my

4:13

own personal journey as an adoptee

4:16

. I was labeled with

4:18

a lot of limiting labels

4:21

while I was in foster care Difficult

4:23

to place , strange looking , unwanted

4:25

, illegitimate . Social workers really were

4:27

concerned that I wouldn't be adopted

4:30

because of my story , because

4:32

I was this illegitimate child as they

4:34

, and also because I was darker

4:36

in coloring . This is all stated in

4:38

my foster records

4:40

. I really believe that the words

4:43

spoken around children , about children

4:45

to children , stick to us

4:47

Even when we are nonverbal

4:50

, before we can even speak our first

4:52

word . These things adhere themselves to

4:54

us and I grew up with just a sense

4:56

of feeling pretty worthless

4:59

, even after I was adopted . Even

5:02

after I was adopted , I was adopted

5:04

by Americans who happened to be

5:06

living in the United Kingdom , in England

5:08

at the time . They had two sons

5:11

. My mother wanted

5:13

a daughter and so I

5:15

was adopted and brought to America

5:17

. I think a lot of people

5:19

would say , oh well , that's great . That's

5:22

where the story ends . You were adopted , isn't

5:24

that wonderful . That was a struggle for me

5:26

because I had a new family

5:28

, but I also lost the

5:31

first me , as I call it . I

5:33

was Julia Dawn before I was

5:35

adopted , my first mother named me

5:37

Julia Dawn . Upon being adopted

5:39

, I became Michelle Ann . There was a whole

5:41

lot of confusion in my young head

5:44

growing up because I felt

5:46

that little girl , that Julia Dawn

5:48

, in me . I didn't know what to

5:50

do with her , where to place her

5:52

. I grew up with a lot of confusion over that

5:54

. I grew up in an adoptive home

5:57

with an alcoholic father . There was a lot

5:59

of hurt inside of the

6:01

home . A father who wasn't terribly

6:04

keen at the time because I think of

6:06

his alcoholism just to lean in and be

6:08

a dad to me . He

6:10

was never physically abusive , but he was verbally

6:12

abusive . I think that was

6:15

an added layer of hurt to

6:17

feel not wanted by my

6:19

first parents on some level and then , within

6:21

the adoptive family that I

6:24

was brought into , not necessarily wanted

6:27

by my adoptive father

6:30

. The journey for me has been an interesting

6:32

one , but one that I feel like

6:35

if I were to define myself , I

6:37

would say I'm just a

6:39

seeker of truth and I wanted

6:42

to know the truth about me and what that

6:44

meant to me . Even

6:46

when I couldn't clearly understand

6:48

that , there was just something

6:50

in me that drove me forward to wanting

6:53

to know more of who I was

6:55

and who I'm here to be and to

6:57

certainly find some sense

7:01

of why this journey

7:03

happened in my life , not just

7:06

why my first parents left and all of that

7:08

, not that , but just why . What does it mean

7:10

for me personally , as

7:12

a human being , as a soul on this planet

7:15

, that this transition , this shift

7:17

in my life happened ? What

7:19

does it mean Also , what do I do with it

7:21

, how do I make a difference with it

7:23

? Which has led me , I think , here

7:25

today , with you , inside of

7:27

this conversation .

7:28

Yeah , I love that and thank you so much

7:31

. I think that's a great segue into

7:33

a little bit about your book

7:36

. I want to thank you . It is rare

7:38

to get somebody's terial before it's

7:40

actually hit the shelf . I

7:43

feel very honored to have had that opportunity

7:45

to read that . So I'm going to talk

7:47

again about the title of your book , and

7:50

it is called Let

7:52

Us Be Greater A Gentle

7:54

, guided Path to Healing for

7:57

Adoptees . That sounds like

7:59

a very personal title to me

8:01

. What does that mean for you and how did

8:03

you get to that ?

8:05

It is a very personal title and thank you for

8:07

those kind words you just spoke . I

8:09

really appreciate it . I

8:11

think actually I know Let

8:14

Us Be Greater is the book that I longed

8:16

for when I was growing up , adopted

8:18

. I remember just reading books

8:20

on adoption that just made it feel the

8:23

experience feel sort of cold

8:26

and I didn't resonate with them

8:28

, almost like I had a diagnosis that

8:30

needed to be cured and I didn't

8:32

feel seen , heard

8:34

, understood , known as out of the books . And

8:37

so , truly , let Us Be Greater is the book

8:39

that I longed to read . It

8:41

is very personal because I go

8:43

into very personal moments

8:45

along my own journey as

8:47

an adoptee and

8:49

the title actually is

8:51

seated in Ethiopia

8:54

. I have a beautiful , brilliant

8:57

, radiant 13-year-old

8:59

daughter named Eviana . She is

9:01

adopted from Ethiopia

9:03

and she and I preface

9:06

this because she and I have conversations and

9:08

this is a part of her story that

9:10

she is comfortable with me sharing

9:12

, because there's a shared experience

9:15

there between she and I as mother

9:17

and daughter . Her story is hers to

9:19

share , but I also want

9:21

to make very clear that she has

9:24

given me permission to share this part

9:26

of our journey together . I learned

9:29

in Ethiopia that she had been given

9:31

a name by the police officer who

9:33

found her and she

9:35

was in Southern Ethiopia but the name is

9:37

Northern Ethiopian . So

9:39

there is belief that the police

9:42

officer was living in Southern Ethiopia but is

9:44

from the North . And the name is Tiblet

9:46

and it means let her be

9:48

greater . And I remember being in Ethiopia

9:50

holding my daughter for the first time and

9:52

learning the translation of her name

9:54

Tiblet . Her name is Eviana

9:57

Tiblet . There is meaning to her

9:59

first name , eviana . It

10:01

means living water . She was very sick

10:03

at the time with Giardia from unsafe

10:06

water that she had been given as a baby

10:08

. So her name is , you know , living

10:11

water . Let her be greater . There

10:13

is such power in her names

10:15

. But I do remember holding her

10:17

, learning the translation of the name Tiblet

10:20

and thinking to myself

10:22

that it was a divine message . It

10:24

hit me that I needed to take that name in

10:26

let her be greater because I was holding

10:28

this child and she was very sick

10:30

. She was malnourished , very tiny for

10:32

her 10 months of age , yet I

10:35

could see all the potential of

10:37

her , right in front of me , in my arms . Like

10:39

a moody , I saw everything , like her

10:41

power , her grace , her beauty , her intelligence

10:44

. I was just drinking it in

10:46

and there was this moment where I thought , oh

10:48

, I can see all of this in my child

10:50

, but I can't catch a

10:52

glimpse of this in myself

10:54

. Why ? Why can't I

10:56

see the same value and worth ? And so

10:59

it started me on an

11:01

exploration of deeper

11:03

sense of self and value worthiness

11:06

. The title of the book , for me

11:08

, is really a crying out to all of us as

11:10

adoptees , that we can

11:12

be greater than the circumstance , the

11:14

broken circumstances that so many of

11:16

us find ourselves in . Sometimes

11:18

those broken circumstances can

11:21

just feel identified by

11:23

those things , by the brokenness . But

11:25

there are ways to do the

11:27

inner work . I'm a big believer in that

11:29

, the inner work of coming home to ourselves

11:32

, accessing a power

11:34

that maybe we feel adoption

11:36

has taken away from us . I felt disempowered

11:39

for a very , very long time . So

11:41

, yes , this is a personal title . It's

11:44

woven within the story of my

11:46

daughter and I becoming mother and daughter , and

11:49

then , beyond that , it is a mantra

11:51

, I think , to all of us as adoptees

11:53

let us be greater . It does start

11:55

with us . It starts with each

11:57

and every one of us doing the work

11:59

of claiming what is ours

12:02

to claim , and that is our identity

12:04

and our voice and our truth and our power

12:06

, and I want that for every adopted

12:08

person .

12:10

I think that's beautiful . And with that

12:12

I wanna talk a little bit about

12:14

your identification within

12:16

yourself . You speak of

12:18

your first me . You

12:22

have a first name and

12:24

you spoke of it earlier in our dialogue

12:26

. Can you kind of grab

12:29

ahold of that a little bit more and speak

12:31

about the first me in

12:33

relationship to yourself ?

12:35

Yeah , I mean , it was a part of

12:37

me that I felt

12:39

I had just been severed from , without

12:42

explanation , without

12:44

my permission . It

12:46

was me before this change

12:49

happened in my life , this shift . There was a

12:51

little girl and her name was Julia

12:53

Dawn . She had an identity

12:56

, she had parents , she had a nationality

12:59

, she had a story . And

13:01

then adoption happened and that

13:03

shifted and I was being

13:06

told that none of that mattered anymore . And

13:08

it was so painful because

13:10

I didn't want to displease

13:13

my new family , I didn't want

13:15

to disappoint my new mother

13:17

as I grew , but I couldn't

13:19

shake this feeling that

13:22

it wasn't right to

13:24

ask me to forget

13:27

something I can never forget because it's

13:29

a part of who I am . And

13:31

so , getting back to that little girl

13:33

and understanding

13:36

that there was hurt there that I needed to

13:38

get to , there

13:40

was a little girl there who had been somehow

13:43

made invisible , not erased

13:45

, because I still felt her , but

13:47

she had been asked to be

13:49

silent and

13:52

to be quiet and small inside

13:54

of myself . And it

13:56

was such a burden and

13:58

it hurt and it was painful and I did

14:01

not feel whole . I felt

14:03

like I was living this life

14:06

of separation from my

14:08

first chapter . I don't ever

14:10

skip ahead . In a book , I read that intro

14:13

, I read the first chapter before

14:15

I get to the second and I

14:17

wanted to understand that little

14:19

girl who was

14:22

in my first chapter . I wanted to know her

14:24

, I wanted to help her and

14:27

I knew that if I could get back to her

14:29

, she could also help me by

14:31

identifying the wounds that

14:33

I had buried , because I didn't feel like

14:35

I had permission to uncover

14:37

them , to look at them , to explore them , to examine

14:40

them in order to get back to myself

14:42

. That's what I mean about the

14:44

first me , because every adoptee has

14:47

that . They have a first chapter . They have first

14:49

identity , first family , first me , and

14:51

I think that part of themselves

14:53

needs to be safely held and

14:55

it needs to be nurtured

14:58

, recognized and acknowledged

15:00

. I think that is such a beautiful gift

15:02

and we need to

15:04

do that . We need to recognize and acknowledge , as

15:06

part of who we are , in ways that feel

15:08

good and right , that when

15:10

we connect to that precious

15:12

child inside of us who had such

15:15

a shift in their

15:17

life and felt so out

15:19

of control , unseen , unheard , unknown

15:22

, in that moment and beyond , it

15:24

is a powerful thing and healing

15:26

starts to happen in that moment where

15:29

the first me and

15:31

the big me reconnect

15:33

. It's beautiful .

15:35

Well , during that discussion

15:37

and your explanation of first

15:40

me , I heard

15:42

you reference at least two , if not more

15:44

times the internal

15:46

pain and the pain points

15:48

of our adoptee journey

15:51

and I was wondering if

15:53

you would like to expand on those . You

15:56

call them out in your material . You

15:59

reference them as eight pain

16:01

points . Let's dive there a little

16:03

bit .

16:04

Okay , yeah , I moved through eight pain

16:07

points that I

16:09

have definitely moved through in my own

16:11

life . Many , many

16:13

, many I coach have moved

16:16

through these pain points , sometimes

16:18

all of them , sometimes

16:20

a few of them , sometimes one of them

16:22

. They'll be dealing with when they arrive to

16:25

me . The first is the pain of feeling

16:27

, you know , unwelcome in the world , just

16:29

a sense of not feeling welcome

16:31

in the life that they've been given . Sometimes I've

16:35

described myself and I don't know about

16:37

you and other adoptees , those I coach have agreed

16:39

with me as maybe a foreigner in my own life

16:42

, a stranger in my own life , someone

16:44

on the margins , sort of peeking in

16:46

. I used to feel like I lived

16:48

outside of this glass house and

16:51

I could see

16:53

all of these people involved

16:55

in my life . I could see them , but I wasn't

16:57

allowed access in , but

17:01

I knew that they were there , you know . So

17:03

I felt this feeling of feeling

17:06

unwelcome in the world and it is

17:08

a pain point that many adoptees

17:10

share with me . The second is

17:12

the pain of broken bonds and just a deep

17:14

sense of loss , and adoption is rooted

17:17

in loss . One family

17:19

had to come apart for another family to come together

17:22

. It is absolutely

17:24

the truth that we must speak out

17:26

loud and it

17:28

has not done adoptees any

17:31

service to not speak

17:34

that truth out loud . Adoption is

17:36

rooted in loss . There is no shame , there's no blame

17:38

in that . It is the truth and we must speak to it

17:40

so that we can help ourselves in each other . Being

17:43

denied access to truth , what a pain point

17:45

. You know the truth of

17:47

who we are , the truth of our medical

17:49

records . You know the ability to

17:51

seek the truth of ourselves

17:54

on even a spiritual

17:56

level , when so much of the world tells

17:58

us , you know or defines

18:01

the narrative that we are here to live . You

18:03

know the saying that truth will set you free

18:05

. I believe each and every adoptee

18:08

deserves access to truth . Familiar

18:11

rejection and words that harm is

18:13

number four , I think

18:15

, just the pain of the sense

18:17

of rejection . As you know

18:19

, our lives shift and our

18:22

first families disappear . You

18:24

know there is a feeling

18:26

of that . They're gone . I

18:28

understand that there is open adoption

18:30

and that there's a sense

18:33

of rejection . I

18:35

think that is so at the core of

18:37

the adoptee journey , no

18:40

matter what the adoption structure

18:42

looks like . We must talk about

18:44

that . Even adoptees

18:47

who are in open adopt adoptions

18:49

can feel the sense of rejection

18:51

and confusion so important

18:54

that we're able to talk about

18:56

that in safe , sacred spaces

18:58

. And certainly you know words

19:00

that harm my golly

19:02

. There are a lot of words that are thrown around

19:05

out there about the adoption

19:07

process that can make adoptees

19:10

feel diminished in their lives

19:12

. We need to work on that

19:14

. That can be out in the world . It can even

19:16

be within our homes . Let's be really careful with

19:18

our words . I think that's very important

19:20

. I certainly know , growing up in my house , there were a lot of harmful

19:23

words that were spoken and they

19:25

do stick . You know , it's like a sticky

19:27

residue . It's very important that we get to a

19:29

place where we start to peel those things off and understand

19:32

that those words and even the rejection

19:34

that we've been through , it's not who we are . The

19:37

pain of distrust that

19:40

hits hard . Learning how to trust

19:42

ourselves .

19:43

Just makes your heart bleed almost , doesn't it

19:45

? Yeah , I agree with you

19:47

, it's a heart bleeder .

19:49

Yeah , it's a

19:51

heart leader and what makes my

19:53

heart , you know , the ability to trust others

19:55

, but the ability to trust

19:57

our own selves . I didn't trust

19:59

me for a long time because I didn't know why

20:02

I didn't really know

20:04

why my parents left . So

20:06

how can I trust anything

20:08

or anyone around me when there was so

20:10

much truth that was kept

20:13

from me , the ability to speak

20:16

about the loss I felt inside , the

20:19

rejection that I feared all of it ? I

20:21

just felt like there was who

20:23

could be trusted and

20:25

unfortunately , that even was

20:28

turned against my own self . I didn't trust

20:30

myself for a long time . Banished biology

20:33

the pain of banished biology was a

20:35

real one for me , just feeling like

20:37

I couldn't openly express what

20:39

I felt pulsing within my veins . My

20:42

mother used to say you

20:45

are Southern now and

20:48

you are , you know , white now and

20:50

that's who you are . Because

20:53

we adopted you , You're one of us , and

20:55

I'm sure her she

20:58

meant well with that on some level

21:00

. I think she was trying to show me or

21:02

say to me hey , we

21:04

include you , right , but it didn't

21:07

allow me the chance to be who I

21:09

am and

21:11

to do that transparently and openly

21:14

. And so I think that sense of banished biology

21:16

. We need to help adoptees connect

21:19

back to the truth of who they are in that

21:21

way . Pleasing others versus pleasing

21:23

the self is the seventh pain

21:25

point that I explore really

21:27

is rooted in that fear of rejection , and

21:30

so we put others above

21:32

us and unfortunately

21:35

oftentimes can hurt ourselves

21:37

in the doing . And I think it's really important

21:39

to help adoptees realize

21:41

that pleasing yourself , honoring

21:44

yourself , is priority number

21:46

one , and it's

21:48

really a beautiful thing to give yourself

21:50

permission to do that . Lack

21:53

of transparency and acceptance is number

21:55

eight just that sense of

21:57

not being able to be transparent

21:59

in our lives and accepted as

22:02

who we are and who we're here to be

22:04

. Those are the pain points

22:06

that I've moved through in the book and

22:08

they're heartbreakers and

22:10

heart leaders indeed .

22:13

But they're also , michelle , the heart and

22:15

soul of a lot of the

22:17

emotions and

22:19

the perspectives and

22:22

the journeys that adoptees are

22:24

on the commonalities of those

22:26

themes . We hear them over

22:28

and over and over , and

22:30

to get them pen to paper

22:33

is so important because

22:35

we need those types of tools

22:37

where people are , like yourself

22:40

, saying I've been here , this

22:42

is how I've worked through it , and

22:44

I want to share with you how I've

22:46

worked through it . So I'm going to pick out two of

22:48

the pain points that

22:50

I can relate to very

22:53

heavily for myself , and

22:55

I'd like us to talk through them a little bit , and

22:57

I'm going to go out of order . I apologize in advance

22:59

.

23:00

Okay , it's okay , it's

23:02

okay .

23:05

People pleasing the people pleasing

23:07

one is . You know what one of my

23:10

favorites and

23:12

in one of my early seasons

23:14

with my husband and

23:17

a friend of ours called the Mon , we

23:19

actually spoke about people

23:21

pleasing in correlation

23:23

to abandonment . I

23:26

was just curious what some of your thoughts

23:28

or how you've been coaching

23:30

others through the

23:33

aspects and the downsides

23:35

of people pleasing .

23:36

Yeah , I feel like you know , people pleasing

23:39

is such

23:41

a . It's a form of

23:43

really self-harm emotional

23:45

self-harm and

23:48

I think it's really important to identify

23:50

. You know where you

23:52

believe your people pleasing pattern

23:54

started . Now I can go way

23:56

, way back and say that for me

23:59

, I believe it started

24:01

, you know , the moment my first

24:03

mother walked away

24:05

. I was not verbal

24:09

at that time , but I felt her

24:11

leaving , there's no doubt about

24:13

it . And so I think

24:15

in the mind we begin to think what do we need to do

24:17

so that others will stay ? And

24:20

while you know I better , I

24:22

better be good , I better you know please

24:24

others that do what they say , or

24:26

they might leave me too , and

24:28

I think that is something that is sort

24:31

of embedded in us on a cellular level as

24:33

adoptees . But beyond that

24:35

, I think you know , coming

24:38

into our adoptive families , I

24:40

just really remember feeling I better

24:42

please my mom because I was

24:44

this daughter that she

24:47

had always dreamed of and wanted , and

24:49

she had thoughts about who I was here

24:51

to be and who I was

24:53

, and I needed to

24:56

fit that mold because

24:58

if I displeased her I would risk being

25:00

sent back . I remember having that thought

25:03

very clearly as a little

25:05

girl and pinpointing

25:07

, I think , for me , when

25:10

that really seated

25:12

itself inside of myself . I remember being

25:14

at my adoptive grandmother's

25:16

home and she had remarried

25:19

and we were about

25:21

to leave her home we had been there for the day

25:24

and her new husband I was just a little

25:26

thing , I was a little girl and maybe I was , I

25:28

don't know seven . I was young

25:31

and I didn't feel

25:33

safe around him for some reason . I

25:35

didn't like him really . He made

25:37

me feel uncomfortable and

25:39

I didn't know him , you know . But

25:42

my mother wanted me to give him a kiss on the

25:44

cheek , goodbye . And

25:46

he was sitting at the end of the dinner table and

25:49

I didn't want to do it . It was the first time I kind

25:51

of pushed back , like no , I don't

25:54

want to give him a kiss , and you know , my

25:56

mom said Michelle , be a good

25:58

girl , go kiss , you know

26:00

a thing , goodbye . And

26:04

I did it and I remember feeling

26:06

just this sense of shame

26:09

and a sense of

26:11

being made to do something that

26:13

I don't feel comfortable with . But

26:15

I have to do it because if not I'm really going

26:17

to disappoint my mother . And

26:19

it just started , I think , for me the

26:22

thought pattern that I didn't

26:24

have power over my

26:27

own agency . I didn't have agency over

26:29

myself with my words , with my thoughts

26:31

, with my actions

26:33

, with my desires , with my dreams . I

26:36

better do what other people want

26:38

or I risk losing them . And

26:41

so , ultimately , I think the shift

26:43

comes when we realize that losing

26:46

ourselves is the greatest tragedy of

26:48

all . Abandoning our truth

26:50

is the greatest tragedy . It's

26:53

the greatest loss when we leave

26:55

ourselves behind . And

26:58

so it is . It takes work , but

27:01

it's so important to build that daily

27:03

muscle of shame , showing up for yourself

27:05

as an adoptee , of doing

27:07

the things that please you and ignite the

27:09

light within you , and doing that first

27:11

and holding yourself as priority in that way

27:13

.

27:14

And that takes work . That takes

27:17

an immense amount of work and

27:19

time and effort

27:21

, and I will share with the listeners

27:24

that in the last 60

27:26

days I have been

27:28

hyper-focused on some

27:31

of exactly what you're talking about In

27:33

the context of daily

27:35

journal . I have six

27:37

questions I ask myself every

27:39

day . I intend to do it for

27:41

a 63-day period . This

27:44

is getting beyond the 21 days of a habit

27:46

. This is really

27:49

trying to reframe my brain and

27:51

reprogram some of my thought process

27:53

, and part of that is

27:55

in the context of people pleasing

27:58

and it's weird . They're weird things

28:00

. I'll share my six questions I

28:03

ask myself every day did I overeat

28:05

? I know that sounds silly , but it

28:08

matters to me because I have learned

28:11

in the last probably year . I

28:13

use food for two reasons . Now

28:15

, I'm not overweight in the context

28:18

of that's why I care , but

28:20

I have found that I eat and I'm uncomfortable

28:22

, like physically uncomfortable , right

28:25

. I also ask myself did

28:28

I listen to something with the intention

28:30

of learning ? So I listen

28:32

to other podcasters . I speak

28:34

about them frequently on here . I

28:37

listen to stuff

28:39

that is associated with reframing

28:42

your mind , positivity , right

28:44

, mind reset , those

28:46

types of items and then I ask

28:48

myself did I read today ? Because

28:50

I'm a reader . And

28:53

did I move today ? Because I would

28:55

now work remote ? And I've

28:57

worked remote for a decade and I

28:59

can tell the difference in my activity level

29:01

I went from endurance activities

29:04

to hardly moving at all . But the

29:06

last question that I ask myself every day

29:08

in journal on which is the most important

29:10

one what am I grateful for today

29:13

?

29:14

Yeah , those are so good . I'm so proud

29:16

of you . Gratitude

29:18

is so key . That's

29:23

hard when we've been adoptees who've been told

29:25

just be grateful , just

29:27

be grateful and move forward . But

29:30

gratitude to me is different . It

29:33

is so expansive , the space

29:36

of gratitude , and I can

29:38

hold on to a piece

29:40

of gratitude , a moment of gratitude from

29:42

my day , and I think that's what you're suggesting . It's

29:44

like if I close my eyes , if I'm journaling and I get

29:47

really still , what from this day

29:49

can I be grateful for

29:51

? Even if it's just one thing ? Maybe

29:54

it's my breath , maybe it's my

29:56

beating heart . I like to tell people your heart

29:58

beats 100,000 times a day . You don't even

30:00

have to think about it . It's a gift

30:03

. We can hold gratitude for

30:05

our beating heart . There's always

30:07

something we can find to fill ourselves

30:09

up with a sense of gratitude and it

30:11

is so life-affirming and it is so healing

30:14

Just saying

30:16

that sharing about breath and

30:18

heart . I feel

30:20

it in my body there's a shift and

30:22

it feels really good and

30:25

you know what we deserve

30:27

? That and

30:29

that's connecting with that light inside

30:31

of us , the gratitude that

30:33

we can hold for our lives , even

30:36

the harder moments from

30:39

our lives . You know , I like to ask and I encourage

30:41

adoptees to ask , even in the harder moments

30:43

, if you can sit and journal on

30:46

asking yourself these three questions

30:48

what was that , or is

30:50

that here to teach me ? What

30:52

was that or is that here to show me

30:54

and how is that here to grow

30:57

me ? Those are three questions that I

30:59

think can start some really beautiful reflective

31:01

journaling , even

31:03

in the harder moments . You know they say you

31:05

can't have a message without a mess . I

31:07

really believe that adoption is messy

31:10

. This experience is not perfect

31:12

, although the narration

31:14

out there has tried to make it so .

31:17

It's messy .

31:18

But if we can please

31:20

ourselves but ourselves

31:22

as the priority and say , okay

31:24

, these messy moments have happened

31:27

and that's

31:29

okay to say they hurt . But

31:31

let me do the work of seeking

31:34

out what might be the miracle awaiting

31:36

me there , what might be the

31:38

thing that fills me up with gratitude . You know

31:40

that was hard , but

31:43

look what I learned , look what it showed

31:45

me , look how , look how it grow , it grew

31:47

me . So I think

31:49

your questions and journaling is is

31:51

such a beautiful

31:54

process to put pen to paper

31:56

and explore your own

31:58

thoughts in that way .

32:00

Yeah , I mean it wasn't necessary evil , to

32:03

be frank about it . And I

32:05

, yeah , it's not , and I recognize

32:07

that and I know many other adoptees recognize

32:10

that too , and all I can say

32:12

is let's encourage each other to

32:14

find ways . You know , if it's , if it

32:16

is something as simple as two

32:18

questions make it repetitive

32:20

do something right and

32:22

it's . It's important to me under

32:24

the context of all of the

32:27

preverbal trauma which

32:29

you know , we , as adoptees

32:31

, we really start to understand

32:33

that as we are working

32:36

through this journey and we're starting

32:38

to learn more things about ourselves . But

32:40

you have a different approach which I

32:43

really liked as well . We

32:45

we do mention , you know , in

32:47

many instances a

32:49

primal wound . We mentioned

32:51

trauma response , but

32:54

in your book you actually

32:56

talk about grief and

32:58

the definition of grief and the

33:00

phases of grief , and I was wondering

33:02

if you would be willing to talk a little

33:05

bit about that too .

33:06

Absolutely , and I think I would pinpoint

33:08

in on disenfranchised

33:11

grief . Anything is really

33:13

so important to clarify in

33:15

this adoptee journey because it's

33:17

it's core in our experience

33:19

. If you think about it and I define

33:21

disenfranchised grief in the book I'm

33:24

just going to read it there is a kind of grief

33:26

known as disenfranchised grief and it

33:28

very much applies to the way that many adoptees

33:30

experience their loss . Grief

33:32

becomes disenfranchised when others

33:35

do not validate or recognize a

33:37

loss or the subsequent

33:39

grieving process . Adoptes

33:41

are told even today that they shouldn't be grieving

33:43

, they should just be grateful . They

33:45

shouldn't spend their time wondering about who or

33:47

what came first . This has been

33:50

the primary attitude for decades , for

33:52

decades , but it is beginning to change

33:54

. As awareness increases and

33:56

I'll stop there because just our conversation

33:59

is that piece of awareness as

34:01

we connect as adoptees , as

34:03

we , as we share within

34:05

our adoptee constellation , as

34:08

we get real and raw and vulnerable

34:10

, we're beginning to open

34:13

up space for talking about grief

34:15

and I think that is

34:17

a very healing thing . I do talk about

34:20

the five stages of grief , and this

34:22

should be . I don't want this to be complicated , going through

34:24

this book and reading , so let's

34:27

break down . You know the five stages of

34:29

grief and they're based on psychiatrist

34:32

Elizabeth Kubler Ross's model . Denial

34:35

is the first stage

34:38

of grief in the Kubler Ross

34:41

model and I think it's

34:43

not unusual for an adoptee to

34:45

you know , truly spend or respond

34:47

to their strong feelings of grief by pretending that

34:49

the loss never happened . I used to say

34:51

that a lot . My friends would tease me , you

34:54

know , in school . I would say they

34:56

would ask me why did your you know , why did your parents

34:58

give you up , or why did they want

35:01

you those things ? Every adult , yeah , we've always

35:03

, all of us , have been

35:05

faced with those kinds of questions . That

35:07

hurt , but I used to deny that

35:09

I had been laughed . I

35:11

would say , well , my mother's the Queen of England

35:14

and my father's the King of Spain , and they're very , they're

35:16

very busy , and so I'm here

35:18

right now and that would at least shut

35:20

these kids up

35:22

right For the moment . But

35:25

but there was denial and it was

35:27

a coping mechanism . It

35:29

protected me in that moment . I didn't have

35:31

to go right to the heart

35:34

of the hurt and

35:36

it stopped the questioning in that

35:38

moment . Anger is

35:40

the second stage of grief

35:42

and you know , it's one that

35:45

can look like frustration or

35:47

irritation . Anxiety is the stage of grief

35:49

. Or an adoptee may think why me ? This

35:51

isn't fair , why me ? And

35:54

they may find it incomprehensible

35:56

that the loss has happened in their life

35:58

in the first place . And you know , I think

36:00

anger is such a healthy phase

36:03

when we're , when we're able to do it in

36:05

a safe space and really explore the anger

36:07

that we feel . But I think that

36:09

for a long time we've not been able

36:11

to be angry as adoptees

36:14

because we're just supposed to be grateful and

36:16

happy and how lucky . You

36:18

are right . Those

36:20

things may be true . Each

36:22

adoptee looks at their adopt adoption experience

36:25

differently . Adoption

36:27

for each adoptee is as

36:30

unique as the adopted person . But

36:32

I think that we can't be , we

36:34

can't be afraid of the anger . You

36:36

need to explore it and feel it and

36:38

and understand that it's valid

36:41

. It's a valid feeling . Bargaining

36:43

is the third stage . You know I

36:45

don't know about you , but I tried to bargain with

36:47

God a lot . You know if I , if

36:50

I'm a good adoptee , can I someday

36:52

maybe see my first

36:54

mother again ? Or you know , there's a lot

36:57

of bargaining that can happen .

36:59

That's so interesting , michelle , because I I

37:01

don't know if I've ever shared this . I

37:03

have to really think if I have , I used

37:06

to actually say this on the regular

37:08

God , what lesson

37:10

have I not learned yet ? What

37:13

lesson do

37:16

I still need to learn ? Let

37:18

me know , because I'm kind of getting

37:20

exhausted . So I would

37:22

do the bargaining with God as

37:24

to this journey

37:26

and my life and the things

37:29

that were happening in that and I know

37:31

now it was very much

37:33

seated in not only

37:35

my trauma , but you know the concept

37:38

of grief as well .

37:39

Yeah , that's really beautiful

37:41

. Thank you for sharing that . Yeah , I mean

37:43

, when we recognize that it's grief , we're

37:45

not a . I like to say we're not angry

37:47

adoptees , we're grieving adoptees

37:50

, but we have the right to feel anger

37:52

. We have the right to feel anger

37:55

and it's important that

37:57

we do because we're grieving and we need

37:59

to feel those things . We need to feel what is real

38:01

in order to heal . I did , you

38:03

know . I did the bargaining with God . You

38:05

know , if you would just please stop my

38:07

, my adoptive father from drinking

38:10

, I promise I'll be

38:12

the best daughter and I'll never feel sad

38:14

about being adopted again If you just

38:16

do this , you know that's just

38:18

so powerful , and it also stabs

38:20

you in the heart when you hear someone say

38:23

that , but we know that it happens

38:25

in many instances . Yeah

38:27

, absolutely it does . Depression

38:30

I'll move on . Depression is the fourth

38:32

stage and I think it's probably

38:35

maybe the most well-known

38:38

, you know , within the stages

38:40

of grief , and it can be difficult

38:42

, it can be messy , it can be loud , it can be

38:44

quiet , but it is , I think , the stage

38:47

where adoptees can

38:49

find themselves , maybe withdrawing

38:51

from their life or isolating themselves

38:53

, numbing themselves . Maybe

38:56

they feel a little bit too overwhelmed to face

38:58

it and that's an isolating

39:01

place to be and it can cause us to feel

39:03

deflated emotionally and depressed

39:06

, maybe even overlooked

39:08

, since the wider narrative

39:10

in the adoption conversation does

39:12

suggest that adoptees have nothing to

39:14

grieve . So why would we be depressed

39:17

after all ? It's really important to look

39:19

at this stage . And then

39:21

the fifth is , I think , acceptance . And

39:23

acceptance is interesting within

39:26

the Kupla-Ross model because

39:28

it's , you know , it's not saying it's

39:31

okay that I'm adopted , and where

39:33

we arrive within that space

39:35

of acceptance is I'm adopted and

39:37

I'm going to be okay . And

39:40

I think that is so transformational

39:43

when we can say that I'm adopted

39:45

and I'm going to be okay . We've

39:47

been asked for a very long time just to say I'm

39:50

okay , I'm adopted

39:52

and it's okay . Let me back that up . I

39:54

think we have been urged to say it's

39:57

okay that I'm adopted , and

39:59

getting to that place of saying I'm adopted

40:01

and I am going to be okay

40:03

.

40:05

Oh , I love that spin , I like

40:07

that reframing of that and

40:09

I think I'm going to sit in that

40:11

for a little bit , michelle .

40:13

It's when we begin to recognize our grief

40:15

, we begin to honor

40:18

it , we begin to see that it's valid

40:20

and that these stages of grief , these emotions

40:23

we feel are valid . We

40:25

become more aware

40:27

that they're there and

40:29

we frequently observe our

40:31

grief and it's okay

40:34

. What is that saying

40:36

? Light burns off fog , igniting

40:39

a light within us that maybe we've dimmed

40:41

down because we thought we've had to . And

40:44

then we start pulling the

40:46

light up a little bit , a little bit and a little

40:48

bit , as we frequently begin

40:50

to observe our grief , and we burn

40:52

away the fog that

40:54

, in my opinion , has kept us from ourselves

40:57

. That's how I look at it .

40:58

Yeah , I really do like that and I

41:00

am going to spend some time reflecting

41:03

on that when

41:05

we close out our conversation today . It's just

41:07

one of those things that I know will be stuck in my

41:09

repeat brain that

41:12

might overthink your brain . It will happen .

41:14

Well , I hope you'll send me your notes and thoughts

41:16

on that , because I'd love to know .

41:19

Oh yeah , absolutely Well

41:21

, you mentioned points

41:23

of light and I want

41:25

us to tackle

41:27

a common theme . That

41:30

drew me to your book as

41:33

I was reading through it and I'm like , oh my gosh , I feel

41:35

like we were channeling each other

41:37

at some point in time and

41:39

we didn't know each other at that point in time

41:41

. And so you have an exercise

41:44

it's called putting down the baggage

41:46

, and you reference

41:48

the term burden , and it's

41:50

important to me because I

41:53

equally , have been giving thought

41:55

over about a calendar year now

41:57

and curating my thought process

42:00

around the burden that

42:02

adoptees are asked to carry , and

42:04

so I define that . We connected

42:07

through . Another podcaster and I want

42:09

to give him credit is Simon Ben

42:11

. He does the thriving adoptees podcast

42:14

. Please

42:16

go check him out and he connected us together

42:18

and I'm so thankful that he did . But

42:21

as part of that , I was on his

42:23

podcast again , thriving adoptees

42:25

, and it is episode 207

42:29

. It published in

42:31

November 2022

42:33

. It is called the hidden and

42:35

not so hidden burdens of the adoptee

42:38

, and my approach

42:40

to that conversation , michelle

42:42

, was we are asked

42:45

from the earliest age

42:47

to start holding

42:50

on to the burden of this

42:52

adoption and it's

42:54

not ours to hold , and

42:56

each of the phases of

42:58

development . We

43:01

pick up another piece and we

43:03

we start , you know , putting it in our

43:05

backpack or in our suitcase or however

43:07

we're going to hold it , you know , internal to our body

43:10

. It's really deep

43:12

in my heart that that happens

43:14

to us . It's it's even above and beyond

43:17

our trauma response . It's

43:19

above and beyond the narrative . It's

43:21

above and beyond processing grief

43:24

. It is we are literally just

43:26

walking through life . We'll

43:28

hear someone say something to us and we'll pick it

43:30

up and we'll be like , oh , I can't do that again because

43:32

, because and then

43:34

we'll go into , uh , let's

43:36

just say , the childhood ages you referenced

43:39

. You know the things kids said to you and

43:41

how you , you know , react

43:43

to that . And then you'll start carrying that

43:45

burden , right , the burden of how

43:47

other children impact you . And

43:50

then you'll be sitting with uh and you referenced

43:52

and she , you know the the need to go

43:54

and show affection to an adult

43:56

that you didn't know and didn't care for . And

43:59

you'll hear your aunts and your uncles that

44:01

you're being raised with oh

44:03

, you're so special , we talk about that

44:05

in our community and you start carrying

44:07

that burden . And so what I love

44:09

about us together in

44:12

this conversation is I recognize

44:14

how we get them . I'm talking

44:16

about how we're getting them and I'm encouraging

44:19

us to lay them down , but you

44:21

actually have the tool or a tool

44:24

in order to lay those burdens

44:26

down , and you want to talk about that a little bit with us

44:28

.

44:30

Absolutely those burdens . Thank

44:32

you for sharing that , because those burdens are so

44:34

heavy and they weigh us down

44:36

, and they weigh us down , and they weigh us down and they dim our light

44:38

, you know , until I think it's

44:40

just a flicker in the dark . Um

44:43

, I have always approached

44:45

my healing through so work modalities

44:47

. I've tried more traditional , but

44:49

it's always been the alternative methods that

44:51

have , I think , have produced

44:54

the most transformation in my own personal

44:56

journey . Putting down the baggage

44:58

is the exercise that you're referring

45:01

to and , um , you

45:03

know it's it's

45:05

. It's one that's very powerful for me

45:07

, because oftentimes we don't even recognize

45:10

that we're carrying this baggage . We can feel

45:12

the weight of it , but we don't recognize

45:15

that that's exactly what it is

45:17

, and I think we put the burden

45:19

on our shoulders from a very

45:21

young age as adoptees . I

45:23

mean , for me , I can say you know , I

45:26

must have done something for

45:28

my first parents to have left . I must have done

45:30

something for my adopted father to drink

45:33

. You know all of it . I must be a

45:35

good girl and do what my mother wants

45:37

me to do in order to be loved , and all of these

45:39

, these burns . We pick up another piece and

45:41

we , you know , put it in , like you said , the backpack

45:44

or or the suitcase so

45:46

much of . I think are hurt , those

45:48

pain points , adoptees

45:50

, is truly rooted in this

45:53

, this residue of

45:55

adoption loss . It can cause us to

45:57

feel so disconnected in our lives , I

45:59

think , especially when that residue

46:01

of loss can't be safely explored . You know

46:03

, it goes back to the ability to explore our

46:06

feelings , those wounds that are resided , that

46:08

we're carrying with us as we go on , as we grow

46:10

, and so that heavy weight is placed

46:13

on our shoulders , and knowingly

46:15

on , or unknowingly , as

46:17

as adopted people . And so this exercise

46:19

asks a question to

46:22

adoptees , and the

46:24

first question is what baggage are you carrying

46:26

that doesn't belong to you ? Now , that

46:28

is a

46:31

transformational question , because number one

46:33

you have to think about . Well , wait , wait , a minute . Am

46:36

I carrying around baggage that doesn't belong to me

46:38

? Am I carrying around

46:40

someone else's burden ? And

46:42

what does that look like for me ? How does that feel

46:44

? What are you carrying right here and right

46:47

now that was never yours to carry Can

46:49

be the follow-up question . And what

46:51

heavy load remains on your shoulders

46:54

? You know that that really needs to

46:56

be let go up . What do you ? What have you

46:58

placed on your shoulders that

47:00

was never yours to carry . So

47:02

the exercise is based on the Dickens process

47:04

and it's a technique that it

47:07

guides the adopted person to think about

47:09

what their life has been like , is

47:12

like currently , and what it

47:14

will be like if they continue to carry the baggage

47:16

of the past with it . And

47:19

now the past , let me just say , can be

47:21

50 years ago , five years ago , five minutes

47:23

ago , right , because , as you say

47:25

, we can put , you know , those burdens

47:27

on ourselves every single day , multiple

47:29

times a day . So if you know the Charles

47:31

Dickens story , a Christmas Carol , you

47:34

know that the character Scrooge was shown his

47:36

past , his present and his future , what

47:38

his future would look like if he didn't , you know , change

47:40

his ways or his outlook

47:42

on life . So in putting down the baggage

47:44

, what we do is a similar process of

47:46

identifying a pain , a limiting

47:49

belief , a hurt , a wound , a burden , and

47:51

we look at it in depth through the lens of three questions . And

47:53

the first question is what did this burden

47:56

, this baggage , this pain , this hurt

47:58

that I've attached to myself ? What

48:00

did this cost me and those I love in the past

48:03

? Journal on that . What

48:05

does it cost you in the past to carry this burden

48:07

around ? And then the second

48:09

question is what is this costing me and those

48:11

I love right now , here in the present Journal

48:14

on that , what's it costing me right here and right

48:16

now ? And then the

48:19

final question is what will this cost me and

48:21

those I love in the future ? We

48:23

look future , forward . What's your life going

48:25

to look like one , three , five , ten years down

48:27

the road if you continue to carry this baggage

48:30

? It doesn't belong to you and

48:32

we really step into that feeling . We

48:35

step into the experience of that feeling

48:37

, the magnitude , the consequences of it . I say

48:39

you know , see it here , feel it , really immerse

48:41

yourself in the feeling and through

48:43

this immersive process of really

48:45

feeling it , seeing it , what's it going to be like ? What's

48:48

it been like in the past ? What does it feel like today ? What

48:50

will it be like in the future ? You're really asked

48:53

to witness your life as you carry this

48:55

baggage around and ultimately , you're motivated

48:57

to put the baggage down once and for

49:00

all and to free yourself from the weight

49:02

and to create new thought

49:04

patterns , new supportive language and

49:06

behavior patterns that support

49:08

, I think , healthy whole relationships , both with

49:10

self and with others .

49:14

I like that . I'm going to transition

49:16

us a little bit because I want to go now to a little

49:19

bit of the lighter side . That's a lot of heavy

49:21

in our conversation , but there's

49:23

also a lot of health and

49:26

wealth and benefit in the

49:28

conversation , so let's lighten up . You

49:30

talk about points of life . There's

49:33

a mantra that you really have

49:35

utilized to help guide

49:37

through you and it's impactful for you and I'd like

49:39

you to share that mantra with us . And

49:42

then my third item just

49:44

putting them all right in a row for you is

49:46

talking a little bit about connection to community

49:49

and things that you see are

49:51

taking place in the adoptee community

49:53

to our benefit .

49:57

Yeah , I think the mantra you're talking about

49:59

is where focus goes , energy flows . Yeah

50:01

, that's , oh my goodness . Our

50:04

thoughts create a reality . It took me a long

50:06

time to realize that , but it is so true . What

50:08

you think of , what you're thinking about

50:10

, what you're keeping your focus

50:13

on , the energy of that is going

50:15

to show up . And so if you think

50:17

you don't hold worth , the energy of that

50:19

is going to find you and

50:21

I promise you the energy is going to show up and

50:24

show you how you're not worthy of love

50:26

, how you're not worthy of your dreams , how

50:28

you're not worthy of abundant life

50:30

, health and wholeness and joy . But

50:33

if we can shift our thoughts as

50:36

adoptees to how worthy we

50:38

are of those things even though there

50:42

were moments in our life that were hard and

50:44

there were things that happened that were beyond our control

50:47

, we have control

50:49

over our thoughts and

50:51

that , to me , gives me traction to

50:53

know I can choose a belief that is healthy

50:55

and whole for me , that loves me and that's

50:58

supportive . I'm

51:00

worthy of love , I

51:02

am love , I am light . I

51:04

want to focus on those kinds

51:07

of thoughts because I know the energy

51:09

of that will find me . I mean , just when

51:11

I speak that I feel the tingle of it

51:13

. If you are able to notice

51:16

a limiting thought or belief

51:18

when you have it and stop

51:20

and say you know what ? Wait just a minute . I

51:23

see that this thought is a limiting

51:26

one and I recognize

51:28

it . It's not who I am , it's what I'm thinking

51:30

. Right , it's just a thought and

51:32

I'm going to forgive it and I'm going to let

51:34

it go and I'm going to choose . I'm

51:37

going to change the channel on

51:39

that thought , I'm going to change the channel on that programming

51:42

and I'm going to choose a thought

51:44

that is healthy and whole

51:46

for me , and when I do that

51:48

, the energy of that finds me

51:50

. I mean , I'm telling you in the moment , it will

51:52

find you . As adoptees , we

51:54

deserve to

51:57

access that part of ourselves that

52:00

reminds us of our worth , that

52:02

is life affirming and can help

52:06

guide us , I

52:08

think , closer to a greater way of being in our lives

52:10

, individually and collectively . I just

52:12

urge your listeners to really take

52:15

in where focus

52:17

goes energy flows . Be careful

52:19

of the thoughts , be careful of

52:21

the limiting beliefs , be careful

52:23

of the words you use with yourself

52:26

. Choose well , because , my gosh

52:28

, you deserve it .

52:30

I appreciate that and I think they will

52:32

as well . It's definitely

52:35

an uplifting mantra

52:37

and ties

52:40

in nicely to the toolboxes

52:42

that we carry around

52:44

to help us thrive

52:47

and heal and do all the things that

52:49

move us forward into the world

52:51

. Well , let's then

52:54

transition about

52:56

the adoptee community . My advocacy

52:59

is how we can touch one another , how

53:01

we can connect , how we can be

53:03

in community . It's important

53:05

. I know for myself

53:08

, every time I meet an adoptee

53:10

, I feel an immediate connection

53:12

just from the simple statement

53:15

I see you , adoptee . So

53:18

I would really like you to , just if you have

53:20

a couple more minutes with us , talk

53:22

a little bit about connecting to community .

53:26

It's so key . I used to tell

53:28

myself that I didn't

53:30

need community . I was actually afraid of community

53:33

because I just saw life as pretty fragile

53:35

and I didn't trust that people

53:38

would stay at communities with . You

53:40

know , stick around . And

53:43

so I tended to , I

53:46

didn't lean in . And it was when

53:48

I started to lean in where

53:50

I started to feel seen and

53:53

heard and know . There's nothing more beautiful than someone

53:55

saying I understand , I

53:57

get that , I've been there too and I

53:59

want to hold your hand and I want you to

54:01

know that I see you and I hear you and I

54:03

know you and do I understand ? I think it's

54:05

so beautiful . Community is key

54:08

and I think that

54:10

this is why there's

54:13

this shift and this tipping

54:15

point within the adoptee community

54:18

, the adoptee constellation , because

54:20

we are connecting , we

54:22

are plugging into each other

54:24

, we are sharing our

54:27

perspectives and my gosh , there's

54:29

a wide variety of perspective and

54:31

I think that is OK , I

54:33

think it's beautiful . So a wide variety

54:36

of experience that

54:38

we hold as adoptees and we need to share

54:40

them all . We need to honor each other . You

54:43

know , no judging , but let's just hear

54:45

each other out . I want

54:47

to hear adoptees . I want

54:49

to hear their stories , I want to hear their perspectives

54:51

and their wisdom . They hold

54:54

so much wisdom . We are an incredible

54:56

community of people , but

54:59

I do think that you know , through

55:01

connecting social media , et

55:03

cetera , in the various ways that we are plugging

55:05

into one another , that we are seeing a tipping

55:07

point , and I think that we are

55:09

seeing , you know , the

55:12

damage that's been done within

55:14

a wider narrative that's not represented

55:16

our true lived experience , and all we're saying

55:19

is we want

55:21

to be the ones to speak our

55:23

experience . We

55:25

would really appreciate if the adoption

55:27

conversation could be more centered

55:30

on the adoptee , because

55:32

that's who it impacts , in

55:34

my opinion , the most . So I

55:36

think , voice by voice , adoptee by

55:38

adoptee , we're shining light in the darkness and we're

55:40

reaching other adoptees who have felt very

55:42

much alone and isolated within this

55:44

experience . We each know what that feels like and

55:48

we're having the difficult , uncomfortable

55:50

, sometimes messy conversations

55:52

that we need to have to challenge people

55:54

to consider their you

55:57

know , preconceived notions of what

55:59

it means to be adopted . And I think that

56:01

there is an energy and electricity that's

56:03

being unleashed within our community . It's

56:05

unstoppable and it's creating change

56:07

, and I am all here for it .

56:09

Yeah , I am too . I appreciate

56:11

that perspective , and we're

56:13

going to end a little bit with you talking

56:16

about your upcoming endeavor

56:18

into podcasting , and

56:20

you know I'm here for you , so

56:23

let's talk about what you're going to launch here

56:25

in a few weeks .

56:28

Oh , yes , you have already given me some great tips

56:30

, by the way , and some tools

56:32

to use , some secrets of the trade , so

56:34

thank you so much for that . We are launching

56:37

the Electricity of you podcast

56:39

, and this

56:41

goes back this is seated

56:44

way back in my childhood as a young adoptee

56:46

, feeling very much alone in the dark , in

56:48

the fog before that was even a term that

56:51

I knew alone and isolated

56:54

in my experience . I used to , you

56:56

know , cuddle up in my bed at night in the dark , and

56:58

I used to sing this little light of mine , I'm going to let it shine

57:00

, and I know

57:03

you said you , you know that song . Some of your listeners

57:05

may , some may not , but this little light of mine , I'm

57:08

going to let it shine . Right

57:11

, and I would sing

57:13

that because there's

57:15

so much of my experience

57:18

as an adoptee that felt like it

57:20

was very much in the shadows and in the dark , and so this podcast

57:23

is going to explore , through

57:25

the diverse guests

57:27

that I'm going to have on , people with incredible

57:30

wisdom , incredible stories to share . You

57:32

know what caused their light to go on

57:34

dim ? Because mine went on dim . I

57:37

believed it was there somehow , some way , but it it was

57:39

dimmed down , it was doled out

57:41

for a while . And what was that

57:43

like ? You know , what

57:45

was the dark valley that they moved through and

57:47

how did they find the direction

57:50

to reconnect , plug back

57:52

into their light and ignite

57:54

their true promise , their true purpose , their

57:57

reason for being , and

57:59

to stand tall in their truth . And

58:01

then what does that look like ? And you

58:04

know what are the tools that

58:06

they want to share with listeners

58:09

and that can help them , you

58:11

know , get that traction today

58:13

to start reigniting their

58:15

lives , reigniting their purpose and

58:17

the promise that each of us hold . And

58:20

so I'm so excited to be releasing that

58:23

. The first one comes out , episode one , in just a couple

58:25

of weeks . The electricity of you podcast is going to

58:27

be special .

58:28

I am looking forward to adding it

58:30

to my list of listening

58:33

to learn activities , and

58:35

so congratulations

58:38

, and I wish you the best of luck with

58:40

it too . It is such

58:42

a joy and an

58:44

honor and I know you're going to you're going to resonate

58:47

with these words as well over time

58:49

to spend in conversation

58:52

with people and to have guests

58:54

, and so , as we close out , I

58:56

just really want to say thank you so much

58:58

for coming on our show

59:01

and sharing so much positivity

59:03

and really encouraging

59:05

words for the listeners . I

59:08

don't want to mis misrepresent

59:10

the book again , because you know I

59:13

might just accidentally do that . The

59:15

name of the book is Let Us Be

59:17

Greater A Gentle , guided

59:20

Path to Healing for Adoptees

59:22

. The podcast

59:24

is Electricity

59:27

of you . Our guest

59:29

is Michelle Madrid and

59:31

she can be found at themichellemadridcom

59:34

, and I'll put all of her

59:36

socials in the notes as well

59:39

. As we close out and say

59:41

goodbye to one another , there's

59:43

one last question I want to

59:45

pose , and it is

59:47

around your

59:50

lived experience and

59:52

what you want non-adoptees

59:54

to take away from the conversation

59:56

.

59:57

It's so important to understand

59:59

that number

1:00:02

one , that adoption is rooted in loss . And

1:00:04

that takes us back to the beginning of our

1:00:06

conversation , right , I think non-adoptees

1:00:08

really need to understand that and

1:00:11

really lean into that truth

1:00:13

. Adoption is rooted in loss and so

1:00:15

adoptees grieve that

1:00:17

loss and it's important that

1:00:19

we are given safe , sacred

1:00:21

, safe space to grieve . And then

1:00:23

, I think , beyond that is and it goes

1:00:26

along with the grief we have to

1:00:28

feel what is real in order to heal

1:00:30

. And I think we have

1:00:32

to feel what is real in order to become more

1:00:34

of who we're here to be , Not

1:00:37

sanitizing this experience , speaking

1:00:39

real and raw about it in order

1:00:41

to , you know , I think , step

1:00:43

into the light individually and collectively

1:00:46

. I would want them to know

1:00:48

non-adoptees , If you

1:00:50

know adoptees , if you know us

1:00:53

, if you love us , if

1:00:55

you love us unconditionally and

1:00:57

that's the way we all want to be loved you

1:01:00

want us to feel what's

1:01:02

real for us . You'll want that for us . You'll

1:01:04

want us to have access to grieving

1:01:08

what's been lost and

1:01:10

you'll say we understand

1:01:12

that adoption is rooted

1:01:15

in loss and we want to know what

1:01:17

is that like for you . I mean , those kind

1:01:19

of words are so healing , they hold

1:01:21

so much power and

1:01:23

for non-adopties to help make space for

1:01:26

meaningful conversation without any

1:01:28

judgment , without any

1:01:30

expectation , and just be

1:01:32

open to hearing the adoptee perspective

1:01:34

. Please be open to hearing us . We're

1:01:37

not here to harm anyone . We're

1:01:39

here to help ourselves and each other heal

1:01:41

, and I think that's a very powerful thing

1:01:43

, such profound words and

1:01:45

what a great way to end this episode .

1:01:47

Thank you so much , michelle .

1:01:49

Thank you so much . You are so

1:01:51

dear . You are a point of light

1:01:53

in my life and in the lives

1:01:55

of so many adoptees , and I thank you

1:01:58

for lighting up my day

1:02:00

because you have .

1:02:01

Oh , thank you so much . Thank you for listening

1:02:03

to today's episode . Make

1:02:06

sure to rate , review and share . Want

1:02:08

to join the conversation ? Contact

1:02:10

us at WanderingTreeAdoptDcom

1:02:12

.