0:06

Welcome to Wandering Tree Podcast . I

0:08

am your host , Lisa Am .

0:10

She wanted to spend time with them . She wanted to know who

0:12

they were . She was torn about

0:14

how do I have them know who I am

0:16

, but yet nobody can know

0:18

who we are ? You know ? I

0:20

mean the whole thing . She was stuck and it

0:23

was hard on her . It was very hard on her Even when

0:25

she died . I wasn't allowed to go to her . She was

0:27

petrified Somebody would find

0:29

out that she had a baby out of wedlock .

0:36

Welcome to today's show . I am excited

0:38

to have with me an author , an adoptee

0:41

and just an overall

0:43

good human , and I really

0:45

want to allow this person an

0:47

opportunity to introduce themselves

0:50

With us . Today is Fred

0:52

Nakora . Welcome , fred , to

0:54

the show , hi .

0:55

Lisa , thanks for having me here . I really

0:57

appreciate it . I can't tell you how excited I

0:59

am that you've allowed me to voice

1:02

my story on your podcast

1:05

. I think it's great . I've listened to quite a few of your podcasts

1:07

. I think you do just a spectacular job

1:09

at interviewing and bring out really

1:11

some good points . So today I'm very

1:13

excited , meet your audience and

1:16

kind of spread the word about you know what's

1:18

going on in my life and how that's been

1:21

impacted by being an adoptee . We

1:23

need discovery adoptee . I'll even say at that

1:25

where I've gone , because it's

1:27

you know for myself . My journey

1:30

, while you could say it started in 1959

1:32

when I was born , which would be a very true

1:35

story , the conscious part of

1:37

my journey started in the year 2000 . I

1:39

went at the age of 41 , slip

1:41

of the tongue at a large family gathering . I

1:44

suddenly found out that I was adopted and

1:46

I didn't know that before . So both

1:48

my parents had passed away at that point too . So

1:51

there was some digesting , some understanding

1:53

, some internalizing that had to really

1:56

take place . And I'll

1:58

say the last 23 years . I can't wait to talk

2:00

about them here because it's

2:02

been interesting . You know , I can say

2:05

I've been out of the fog for 23

2:07

years and I think

2:09

I've seen things fairly clearly . Don't

2:12

get me wrong my journey is not complete

2:14

and I am not sailing . I'm healed . I

2:16

am not . I am continually a work

2:18

in progress , but at this point I

2:20

do have , I think , greater clarity

2:22

on where I want to take it and where

2:24

I think it can go , and that has something

2:26

to do with some advocacy that we'll talk about later

2:29

too Perfect .

2:30

Well , if you don't mind taking a couple more minutes and

2:32

just sharing a little bit about the

2:34

term late discovery adoptee

2:36

. I know for a few of us it's

2:38

a common term , but there may be new

2:40

listeners that haven't heard that before

2:43

or really don't

2:45

understand its impacts as

2:47

well . So if you wouldn't mind just doing a

2:49

little bit of expansion on that for everybody

2:51

.

2:52

Sure , I'd be happy to . So you know the

2:54

term late discovery does get kind of interesting

2:57

because you know , when I first discovered

2:59

I was adopted immediately I found out

3:01

I was an LDA . I

3:03

was a late discovery adoptee and

3:05

I'll be honest , at the time when I discovered

3:07

I didn't really see that I had a lot in

3:09

common with the adoptee population

3:12

as a whole because

3:14

of my MPE experience about

3:17

, you know , in that whole part

3:19

of it . So it is kind of interesting in today's world

3:21

and I've seen so much change in

3:23

the whole , I'm going to say , arena

3:26

of who we're all talking about when we start

3:28

talking about biological roots

3:30

, when we start talking about genetics , when we

3:32

start talking about identity and

3:34

how that's formulated , when that's

3:36

formulated . So when I start looking

3:38

at you know what actually constitutes

3:41

what would be considered late discovery adoptee

3:43

. I think pretty much . At least most

3:45

late discovery adoptees I've talked

3:47

to and many people in the profession

3:50

would agree that you know , anytime

3:52

that it occurs after you

3:54

know some fundamental identity

3:56

establishment has occurred would

3:59

be considered late discovery . You know , we

4:01

, you know and I'm going to say I'm a retired middle

4:03

school and high school teacher . I taught for 20

4:05

years . I've had education training . I've

4:07

got lifetime teaching license , so I

4:10

understand human development and I understand what

4:12

happens in that period , you know , roughly between

4:14

the onset of puberty all the way through early

4:16

adulthood . And it's interesting

4:19

to see because for myself

4:21

I would say , you know , having worked with middle school

4:23

kids and high school kids , you can see where

4:25

they really move away from that

4:27

point of being an adult focused

4:30

creature to a peer focused creature

4:32

. That is often they stop listening to mom

4:34

and dad and start listening to what their friends are saying

4:36

and that crucial moment there I

4:38

would say that is a pretty solid

4:41

defining point of

4:43

when it becomes late , because

4:46

that foundation work has now been laid , based

4:48

on all their experiences , all what they've

4:51

learned , you know . So I would say you know , late

4:53

discovery can occur as early

4:55

as maybe 10 , 11

4:57

, you know if , just depending on where

4:59

they are at in developmental stages , you

5:02

know , for most people I think it would

5:04

be sometime , maybe in their later

5:06

teens , 17 , 18

5:08

, up through 20s , you

5:10

know , and any time after that . So

5:12

for me , at 41 , while I'm not

5:14

going to say I'm the latest discovery

5:16

adoptee , I'm on the later end of it , you

5:18

know , I would say a lot come out in their

5:20

fifties , some sixties , you know

5:22

. So for myself , at 41 , I guess you

5:24

could say I was a mid range . That's how I would

5:26

say . That's where I would take late discovery

5:28

, adopte .

5:29

Now , because I don't sit in that space

5:32

. I'm a closed adoption . I've known for

5:34

, you know , since I was in kindergarten

5:36

. That's that's when I was told right before

5:38

I went into kindergarten . So , since I don't sit in

5:40

the space , my next thought as

5:43

you were talking was centered

5:45

around how you found out slip

5:47

of the tongue . Is it common that

5:49

it's through that type of you know , maybe

5:52

an event more like a surprise

5:54

than it is a coordinated

5:56

, later in life ?

5:58

I think you're asking about , is it more common that it's a

6:00

surprise than it's an intentional act later

6:02

in life ? And what I would say , you

6:04

know , if I look at it . You know I can really only

6:06

speak from my experience . I

6:09

have talked to other late discovery adoptees

6:11

, you know , and as I have , it's always . It's

6:13

fascinating to me , you know , just to

6:15

see how we've processed things

6:17

. Very similarly , you know one thing

6:19

I would say in my case in

6:21

particular , and I think it's pretty common you

6:24

go back in time and I was conceived

6:26

in 1958 , I was born in

6:28

1959 , the times

6:31

were very different than they are today . You

6:33

know , you look at what a woman went through

6:35

If she came home and told mom

6:38

and dad she was pregnant and she was unwed in 1958

6:40

. What have you done to the entire

6:43

family ? You've

6:45

groomed us all . We need to hide this . It needs

6:47

to be a secret . You can never reveal

6:49

it . You're an awful creature for doing this . How

6:52

dare you do this to us ? You know

6:54

that was the theme , the whole shame

6:56

all the way . Go away for six months

6:58

, have your baby . Then you come home and you

7:00

don't dare mention this to anybody because if

7:02

you do , you will destroy us all

7:05

. You know the message was so heavy

7:07

and so late . You know , I think the women

7:09

of that time , really , you know , struggled

7:11

with that as they moved forward . So

7:14

adoption is different today . So

7:16

when I look at my parents , you know who made that

7:19

decision and I'm saying my

7:21

adoptive parents back in the late 50s

7:23

really 1960s is when it went into

7:25

fruition and my

7:27

father was the driver . From what I

7:29

understand , they had both passed

7:31

away at the time of my discovery

7:33

. From what I understand , my father was the driver . His

7:35

parents went through a divorce in the 1930s

7:38

. As a result , him and his brothers ended

7:40

up in the county orphanage for

7:43

a period of time , a number of years . From

7:45

what I understand , what I've been told and I believe

7:47

it because , you know , I didn't know him fairly well

7:49

His view of it was he wanted to spare

7:51

me from the stigma of being an orphan

7:53

, of having to live with that shame and

7:56

that burden . I can understand

7:58

what he's saying . You know , I'm going to say , from my

8:00

perspective , I wish he would have told me , but

8:03

at the same time I'm going to say I can respect

8:05

that . They were a product

8:07

of their time and they bought into the philosophy

8:09

. Now , when you get into the second part

8:11

of your question , which was do you think it was

8:13

a planned reveal , I

8:15

think what I saw happen around me

8:17

in retrospect , after I discovered and

8:19

looked back throughout that

8:22

period of time when I think they

8:24

should have told me and they just didn't I

8:27

think the train was on the track , it was going

8:29

900 miles an hour , they didn't know how to turn

8:31

it around and so then

8:33

it became almost how do you

8:35

pass the hot potato without getting caught

8:37

? The other thing that I would say fortunate for

8:39

them and their

8:42

desire to hold the secret . I once I turned

8:44

18 , I basically moved away from home

8:46

and I moved everywhere

8:49

and anywhere for a long

8:51

time and didn't really return home

8:53

till I was 40

8:55

. So from 18 to 40

8:58

, I was away . You know I'd come home for

9:00

periodic visits and stuff and

9:02

more . My parents would come out and see me

9:04

or I'd maybe join up , you know , some gathering

9:06

or something , but really I wasn't around

9:08

. So those slipped clues

9:10

that I could have caught , they just

9:12

weren't occurring as much because there just wasn't

9:15

a presence there . So I think

9:17

the vast majority of the surprises not . I

9:19

don't . I don't think anybody comes out later and says man

9:21

, let's tell them now that he's 30, . You know , at

9:24

that point it's like oh my God , we do

9:26

not want to be caught . Let's pretend this never happened

9:28

.

9:28

Yeah , I think it's . It's definitely core

9:31

to why people are late

9:33

discovery . Just , you know the little bit

9:35

of knowledge I have through conversations

9:37

and reading , by the time you get

9:40

to a certain point , I think that that

9:42

that real sense of well , how

9:44

are we going to explain this 30 years

9:46

later ? And then you know again

9:49

, all the shame and all the very key points

9:51

that you just brought out are part of

9:53

that element as well . With that

9:55

said , I kind of want to move us into

9:57

a little bit about not necessarily

9:59

your journey . You wrote about your

10:02

journey and so can you tell us

10:04

a little bit about your , your book , because

10:06

I want to give you that opportunity

10:08

to one plug it . I've read it , great

10:10

story and yeah , let's just

10:12

go , let's go a little bit into . You know the

10:15

your journey wasn't all roses

10:17

, and do we want to say rainbows and

10:19

unicorns and yeah

10:22

, I'll hop in here .

10:23

Yeah , and I'm going to intertwine this a little bit

10:25

with you know , a bit of the discovery

10:27

itself . So for me , you know it really happened

10:29

. I went to a twin uncle's birthday party in

10:32

the year 2000 . Both

10:34

my parents had passed away . We had moved back to

10:36

the Milwaukee Metro , had been back here

10:38

roughly , I'd say , a year . You know

10:40

, it was kind of funny because I couldn't figure out why I wasn't

10:42

getting invited to like family gatherings . The

10:45

whole reason I wanted to move back was

10:47

to get my kids back to where I grew

10:49

up so they could be around family . We lived in the Twin

10:51

Cities area . We , you know , we enjoyed living up there

10:53

, but all holidays were spent traveling

10:56

and or lonely . That was the

10:58

only options really . So you know

11:00

, we got back here and it was like all of a sudden , you know , my

11:02

parents had passed and all my relatives were

11:04

kind of like Fred , who , you know , I , I

11:07

don't know , I guess we just forgot to , you

11:09

know , invite them to this or that or whatever

11:11

you know . So that was kind of a shocker

11:13

. But I did get invited to this birthday party because

11:15

I was pretty close to one uncle in particular

11:18

. It was my uncle Bob . He and

11:20

his twin brother turned 60 . While

11:23

there there was an elderly aunt of theirs

11:25

who I knew quite well because I

11:27

grew up around that family . While I was off

11:29

getting drinks at the bar , she said

11:31

to my now ex-wife I've known Freddie

11:33

since the day they adopted him . And so when I came

11:36

back to the table and my wife explained

11:38

to me what she said you know it's interesting

11:40

, I'm going to say I fractured , I

11:42

fell apart , I went

11:44

into shock . I would say the overwhelming

11:47

feeling immediately was embarrassment

11:50

. And the reason I think people

11:52

discount the embarrassment when you

11:54

think about the interaction you have with everybody

11:56

around you it's based on one

11:59

common core belief

12:01

that at the end of the day , I know

12:03

myself better than you know me . And

12:05

whether we agree , whether we disagree

12:07

, I can stand solid on that

12:09

fact that I still know me better

12:12

than you know me . And so for me

12:14

, at that point I came

12:16

to terms with that's

12:18

not true . These people all knew me

12:20

better than I knew myself as a grown

12:23

man at 41 . That was really

12:25

the eradication of my

12:27

foundation , because really how

12:29

you grow up and how you establish

12:31

your identity , at least how I did and what

12:33

I can see in retrospect and discovered through a lot

12:35

of counseling and a lot of discussion . You know it's

12:38

based on the true principles that you're learning

12:40

from your family . Those are the

12:42

things that you're accepting as true . That's

12:44

how you establish your values and how

12:46

you make those connections to what

12:48

you want to do , what you're interested in , who

12:50

you value , how you make friendships and

12:52

other types of relationships . And

12:55

those were all the things that really got washed away . And

12:57

what became very interesting then is embarrassment

12:59

turned to anger . That came within , I'd say

13:01

, a couple of days . It took a while , just took

13:04

a long time for it to settle in . You know

13:06

I'm still functioning as a father of

13:08

three and trying to navigate a family

13:10

and a job and everything , and you

13:12

know , inside I'm just crumbling . So

13:14

the next week , when I contacted

13:16

the state of Wisconsin to verify that

13:19

I indeed was adopted , really the second

13:21

swing of the wrecking ball came because , as

13:23

a person who doesn't know and

13:25

is naive about adoption laws

13:27

and record laws , it never would have dawned

13:30

on me that the state would have the information

13:32

and then just choose not to

13:34

give it to me .

13:35

Well , I'm going to have us pause there for just a minute , because

13:38

you said something that I've never

13:40

heard anyone else say . That is

13:42

the embarrassment angle . How

13:44

prolific is that thought , though , fred

13:46

. I mean wow , I'm kind of sitting

13:48

in this space of no one has said

13:51

they were embarrassed . I've heard lots

13:53

of anger , but the embarrassment part

13:55

I'm kind of stuck there for a minute

13:57

. I'm stuck in okay , your

13:59

foundation was shook . You're now

14:01

questioning who you are for sure , definitely

14:04

probably sitting in some trust issues

14:06

, and then you have an embarrassment

14:08

layer before you even got to anger

14:11

, or you know , in conjunction with that

14:13

, that's wow , that is something .

14:15

You know , and I'm going to say it even took me a while

14:17

to recognize that embarrassment

14:20

, recognize exactly what that was , put

14:22

a finger on that feeling , Because I

14:24

knew , you know , at the time that I found out at

14:26

that gathering , I mean I kind of felt bad for a lot

14:28

of people there . First of all , that poor aunt

14:30

who was in her 80s . You know , I gave her

14:32

a shake down when I wanted to find out the information

14:35

like I've never seen before . I was afraid I was going to throw

14:37

her into a coronary . Really , this party

14:39

, you know , at that moment in time

14:41

I hijacked the party . It no longer

14:44

was about in Rich's 60th

14:46

birthday . It suddenly became about

14:48

Fred just came out of the closet as being an adoptee

14:51

. You know , I mean , that's really

14:53

what that party turned into and I

14:56

immediately gathered my family and left

14:58

. I just needed to get out of there and that's

15:00

why , when I look back , that's that was

15:02

the embarrassment . That was like , oh

15:04

my God , I'm totally naked here , Everybody

15:07

can see me and I don't know what they see

15:09

. I don't know what they see

15:11

Felt very judged , you know . I mean , there's

15:13

there's so many layers . That was , that

15:15

was the loss of you . You know you just mentioned the trust

15:17

issues . Well , that was the loss of a lot

15:20

of trust right there , and it was the other

15:22

thing that I think people don't understand

15:24

is it wasn't just

15:26

that I lost trust in everybody

15:28

else . I lost trust in myself

15:31

. I lost trust in

15:33

the ability for me to really

15:35

believe

15:38

that what I was perceiving was reality , Because

15:41

such a big piece that I

15:43

believed to be reality was not true

15:45

.

15:46

Oh , that's so interesting . One of the

15:48

things that I say about

15:50

myself is I can

15:52

spot things that are real versus

15:55

not real very quickly

15:57

, and it's because I spent

15:59

a lifetime constantly watching

16:01

a room and reading people . My

16:03

foundation was very different , and so just

16:06

to hear you say it in a different context

16:08

of not knowing reality

16:11

anymore , that's a well . Now I'm

16:13

thinking I'm at three wows , so in

16:15

a short time period in this conversation

16:17

I've got three wows going . We

16:20

might have wanted to create a little bingo card

16:22

for the listeners so many times . Well

16:25

, I don't think I've heard you say to our

16:27

listeners what the name of your book is yet

16:29

, so I want to make sure we get that in there .

16:32

Yeah , and what I do want to say is so

16:34

, yeah , once the state spent

16:36

their time educating me that I had no access

16:38

to my records , that legally I had no

16:40

right to find out who I was , the social

16:43

worker on the other end of the phone line could

16:45

read my entire file , take

16:47

a black magic marker and eradicate

16:49

anything in it that would allow me

16:51

to understand my life

16:53

in the context that she

16:55

or he understood it . That

16:57

was such a radical thought

17:00

for me at that time . It

17:03

was really the complete fracturing of

17:05

my understanding that I'm on equal

17:07

footing with everybody else . I

17:09

suddenly came to terms with that . What I'll even

17:12

say is , at that point in time

17:14

it took about a year for

17:16

me to really internalize it I

17:19

understood discrimination at a whole different level and

17:22

I'll own this , I'm not proud

17:24

of it . I'm a white male , I

17:27

mean , even though I was a teacher , even though I went through

17:29

sensitivity training , even though I thought I was

17:31

trying to treat everybody as equally as

17:33

possible for me , the reality

17:35

was , wow . I

17:37

suddenly had to come front and center with

17:40

all those preconceived

17:42

notions I had of what adoptees

17:45

were . As I grew up and found out somebody was adopting

17:47

and attributed what parts of their behavior to

17:49

that specific characteristic , all those things

17:52

that became my own filter

17:54

of life , my experience filter . All of a

17:56

sudden I had to wear those coats and

17:58

that was pretty radical in itself . So at

18:01

that time and I'm getting to your question , which is

18:03

what's the name of your book I

18:05

know I'm off on a date so

18:07

when I did start to dive

18:09

into the trying to find

18:12

out who I am , after

18:14

the state eradicated my understanding

18:17

of who I am and after the family

18:19

that I trusted had kind of

18:21

pulled that rug out from me , I

18:23

started reading . I started this was

18:25

2000, . There was stuff on the

18:27

internet . By no means were groups available

18:30

like they are today . Today it's great

18:32

to see Over the last 23 years

18:34

, I'm going to say , there's been such an increase

18:36

in dialogue and a lot of it's

18:38

really positive dialogue . Back

18:41

in 2000 , when I dove into it , there

18:43

was just anger in these email

18:45

chains and it was not

18:47

a pretty place to be . It's just

18:49

a lot of anger , a lot of empty , and

18:51

I still see some , I'm going to say , facebook

18:53

groups , some other social media groups in

18:56

my term . They're stuck in the muck , they can't quite

18:58

get out of that phase of it and it's a horrible

19:00

phase to be stuck in . And I'm going

19:02

to say for myself , I ended up going through

19:04

a recovery program because

19:06

of the lack of available information

19:09

on late discovery adoptees , on

19:11

males that are adopted , and

19:14

really an overall just lack

19:16

of place to turn . You

19:18

know , if you find yourself in this position , didn't

19:21

make me want to write my book , you know , and that's what

19:23

started me to drive

19:25

down that path , which was in about 2006

19:28

, 2007 . And the more

19:30

I did it , the more I found it really was

19:32

something that was very cathartic in nature

19:34

and the thing I wanted the reader

19:36

to really understand is that you

19:38

know this happens to you and when it happens

19:41

to you , it unsettles

19:43

you , you lose who you are

19:45

and as an adult , especially when

19:47

you're trying to manage a family and manage being

19:49

part of a family and everything and all that goes

19:51

on with that , you're lost . You're just completely

19:53

lost and you don't have time to just take . You

19:56

know , stop everything else . It's going on . So

19:59

in the book , the book does carry you through other things

20:01

that are going on in my life , but I do

20:03

try and then give the spin of how

20:05

, now that I found out I'm adopted . How

20:07

does that play into this whole ? And I think

20:09

there's also a tremendous message within

20:11

there that eventually I did come to terms

20:14

as I started to research

20:16

my , my relatives and find out where

20:19

my roots came from . You know , my passion

20:21

then became how do I help

20:23

change the system so that other people

20:26

in my situation , or the

20:28

adopted population as a whole

20:30

, don't have a separate set

20:32

of laws , don't have a separate set of circumstances

20:35

, don't have to feel special

20:38

, because I'm going to say special is not

20:40

a good feeling in this context , it's

20:42

not as good as that's what special

20:44

means in the context , you

20:47

know . So the book I started

20:50

writing I wrote most of it in the

20:52

two years then , 2006 , 2007

20:54

, going into 2008, . It's when I really kind

20:56

of brought some conclusion to the whole

20:58

. Initial , I'm going to say blast

21:01

and search and then really kind

21:03

of started to except

21:05

so it didn't become a 24-7 , I'm

21:07

out of control . It did take that long

21:09

. Name of the book is Forbidden Roots . It

21:11

reflects the roots that I was forbidden

21:14

to access . I still to this

21:16

day , even though I do have my original birth

21:18

certificate . I went through the process . I did reunite

21:20

with my birth mother . I've been through union

21:22

I've met siblings and everything else . I also

21:25

know that I was somewhere between

21:27

three days and three

21:29

months until I was brought into my adoptive

21:31

home . State knows they won't tell

21:33

me . They don't tell me . I'm not allowed

21:36

to know where I was .

21:37

I don't know if I've ever shared with you , fred , that

21:39

I actually reference that as my life

21:42

gap , that's my term , life gap

21:44

, and that is an element

21:46

of our journeys and those

21:48

of us that have been in that space that it's

21:50

hard for people to understand why it's unsettling

21:53

. So what I really like about the

21:55

title of your book , fred

21:57

, is the Forbidden Roots

22:00

and how that resonates with you in

22:02

terms of not only you didn't know

22:04

, but how you are blocked from

22:07

access of the birds , and we

22:09

just mentioned I call it life gap

22:11

and you have a period of time as

22:13

well , so it just resonates

22:15

so well with people . I think this

22:17

is a good spot for us to kind of talk

22:20

about what you're doing

22:22

in your state to

22:25

help overcome some of that . You

22:27

have some advocacy going . Yeah

22:29

, I'd love to do that .

22:31

But that really became at the end of it

22:33

as I boiled through the many , I'm going to

22:35

say , phases . And there's a whole chapter

22:37

in there too that maybe I'd

22:40

like to touch on a little later , and that has to do with

22:42

coming to terms with alcoholism and

22:44

how that impacted kind of where

22:46

I went with the book , where I went with myself

22:48

and where I went with my journey , and I can add

22:50

that in later . But today , and

22:53

today becomes very important because in

22:55

Wisconsin right now there's actually

22:57

two bills that are in

22:59

Perk I guess I would say they're

23:01

on the back burner . They're

23:04

at the state Right now , they're working through some

23:06

other issues , they're about to go on recess , but

23:08

they'll probably kick up in committee in the fall

23:10

and that's Wisconsin

23:13

SB 15 , which is the Senate

23:15

bill , and the corresponding Assembly Bill

23:17

, which is Wisconsin AB

23:19

13 . Both

23:21

those bills are looking to provide

23:24

access for adult adoptees

23:27

to gain their original birth

23:29

certificate . So it's really about

23:31

looking at the ability for

23:33

us to have the same right

23:35

to access our original birth

23:37

documentation as other

23:39

individuals . And it's kind of interesting

23:41

because , as this plays out in Wisconsin

23:44

, minnesota just passed legislation

23:46

that is allowing basically

23:49

it's turning their old laws away

23:51

because Wisconsin actually

23:53

patterned their current laws after Minnesota's

23:56

laws . So now I mean a great

23:59

talking point in what I'm going to say

24:01

. A reality is , minnesota discovered

24:03

it didn't work the way they were doing it . Wisconsin

24:05

has the state acting as

24:07

an intermediary where currently and this

24:09

is a system I went through 23 years

24:12

ago and it's still the one in place is

24:14

originally , I can get

24:16

a copy of my redacted information . That

24:18

, of course , takes money and time . Once

24:20

I have that , then I can apply to

24:23

my birth mother . I can write a letter

24:25

to her indicating who

24:27

I am and why I want

24:29

to know who I am , which is just

24:31

ludicrous to begin with , but that's what

24:34

I have to do and then that

24:36

is turned over to the state of Wisconsin , who and

24:38

then in turn will find her , call

24:40

her , read the letter to her , educate

24:42

her in terms of her response

24:45

. You know her responses and rights . You

24:47

know she has a right to anonymity . She

24:49

has a right to decline my request

24:52

to find out who I am . If she

24:54

declines , for whatever reason , I

24:56

have to wait five years . That time I

24:58

can attempt a second letter and

25:00

if she declines the second letter , it's

25:02

terminal . I'm not allowed to pursue anymore until

25:05

she's deceased . But they won't tell you that

25:07

she's deceased . You just have to keep checking

25:09

it out , you know , can you find

25:12

a body somewhere ? You know , let me check the obits

25:14

, you know . I mean I don't know what we're supposed to do

25:16

. So you know , it's a system that

25:18

, and I'm gonna say , as I went into reunion

25:20

with my mother because she did allow

25:22

me to find out who I was on that first swipe

25:25

and I'm very grateful for that it came with

25:27

a cost . In my letter I swore

25:29

that you know I'm willing to do it at whatever

25:31

level you need . And you know , when you start thinking

25:34

about this whole process that she went through where

25:36

the state contacts her , basically

25:38

says you know , we're here to let

25:40

you know that that baby that you told

25:42

everybody didn't exist and denied

25:45

all your life , and that you know

25:47

you went through that shameful experience . If

25:49

you wanna keep that in the you know that

25:51

shame away , here

25:53

you go , you can turn it down , you know . And

25:55

so it reinforced the shame . The whole process

25:58

to me really hurt her more

26:00

than it helped her , even though she allowed

26:02

me to find out , because even

26:04

as we went through reunion I had three kids of

26:06

my own , which are her grandkids . She

26:09

loved finding out if she wanted to spend time

26:11

with them . She wanted to know who they were . She

26:13

was torn about how

26:15

do I have them know who I am but

26:17

yet nobody can know who we

26:20

are . You know , I mean the whole thing . She was

26:22

stuck and it was hard on her . It was very

26:24

hard on her Even when she died . I wasn't allowed to

26:26

go to her funeral . She was petrified Somebody

26:29

would find out that she had a baby out of wedlock

26:31

and she couldn't live with that . She couldn't

26:33

live with that shame , you know . But it all

26:35

worked out , you know . I mean , in the long run , even

26:37

in the book I've masked her name , I've

26:40

masked her hometown . You can't really figure out

26:42

who she is . You know , I've kept that

26:44

at bay . You know what I'm passionate

26:46

about is trying to get rid of that shame for everybody

26:49

. I think you know we went through the period

26:51

when for some reason , we thought our only birth

26:53

control method was shame and secrecy

26:55

and trying to guilt women out of having babies

26:57

. I don't know if that was the actual conscious

27:00

thought about it , but I think everybody figured

27:02

out that didn't work very well , you know , and

27:04

, as a result , I

27:07

wanna see us move to truth and transparency . Let's

27:09

just let it be what it is

27:11

. It's , you know , it's a form of life

27:14

. It's how we operate as people

27:16

, as mammals , as creatures

27:18

, as part of , you know , the entire

27:20

global population that we are . It doesn't

27:22

have to have the shame on it , and really

27:24

getting rid of it at the legal level is

27:26

you know . Some people will say , does it really matter

27:29

? I mean , can't you find this stuff out anyway

27:31

? Oh , yes , a lot of people are finding

27:33

it out , and it's a very it's messy . It

27:36

brings into play so many people

27:38

that it's really none of their business . And

27:41

my reality is , if she

27:43

doesn't want a relationship with me , I

27:45

don't necessarily want a relationship with her

27:47

. I'm at that point where I can accept that

27:49

I didn't need to have a restraining order placed

27:51

on me to keep me from harassing her . You

27:54

know , I don't know of any other person

27:56

that , based on a birth

27:58

status or straining order is placed

28:00

on them , that they are prohibited from

28:02

finding out information about their

28:04

own being . So others

28:06

might be spared humility

28:08

.

28:09

Yeah , and there was a key point in

28:11

there that you had , which is

28:13

information versus relationship

28:16

. And let's blend it a little

28:18

bit together with coping mechanisms

28:21

, because when you're in the position

28:23

that you've been in , where you had

28:25

your foundation shook , you had the embarrassment

28:28

, the anger , inability to access

28:30

your records , making promises

28:32

that you've upheld in order to

28:34

get information and try to figure

28:37

this all out . Now we move all the way forward

28:39

. We can talk a little bit about the difference

28:41

between what you're stating today

28:43

and the legal

28:46

available information

28:48

versus a relationship . That

28:50

chasm is pretty significant . If you

28:52

could get to that in any conversation

28:54

with anyone , just say it is about equality

28:57

, that's about information . I'm

28:59

not necessarily jumping right

29:01

to relationship , would you

29:03

agree ?

29:03

Yes , and I think that's that's

29:06

been a hindrance of progress

29:08

in the past that I think too

29:10

many people have tried to address

29:12

or state their belief that they

29:14

believe they have a right

29:17

to a relationship with their birth family

29:19

. I , in the 23 years

29:21

I've been chewing on this puzzle and really

29:23

kind of look at it , I don't necessarily

29:26

think that's true , and I don't think that's

29:28

true for the general population , and

29:30

I think even those

29:32

that weren't privileged at birth . Many

29:35

struggle in their relationships

29:37

with their parents and are estranged

29:39

from their children , and so

29:41

we're not different in that

29:43

regard , and relationships shouldn't and

29:46

can't be guaranteed , but

29:48

access to factual information

29:51

should be . And why is that important ? Because

29:53

if you're going to go down that trail

29:55

, if you're going to try to find out who you are

29:57

, and you need an anchoring

30:00

piece in the DNA databases

30:02

, because if you're free floating , it's very

30:04

, very difficult to figure

30:06

out where you land , unless you luck , you

30:08

luck out , somebody pops up as a

30:10

parent or as a sibling . Otherwise

30:13

you're kind of free floating in a , in

30:15

a turbulent current , you know , until you can

30:17

anchor it in some family . That's

30:19

what you have to be able to do .

30:21

So tell us a little bit about anchoring

30:24

yourself , or the lack of an anchor

30:26

, and what did you do to

30:28

, you know , kind of move yourself through this journey

30:31

to recovery ?

30:34

Yeah , and so for myself , what I'm going to say

30:36

is going into the whole thing . You know , back

30:38

in 2000 , I was not

30:41

in a good place with good coping

30:43

mechanisms to deal with the blow that

30:45

hit me . And I'm going to say , the piece that

30:47

I was missing , I'm going to say , is my

30:49

spiritual health . And because of

30:51

that lack of spiritual

30:54

health and what I mean by that is my

30:56

ability to use spiritual tools

30:59

and techniques to help me

31:01

cope , as opposed to looking for numbing

31:03

techniques such as alcohol

31:05

and drugs to avoid . I

31:08

felt heavy on the alcohol

31:10

, drugs and want to avoid side

31:12

of it . I was putting on a good face , I was

31:14

putting on like this is all just

31:17

on one big adventure . But you

31:19

know , inside I was getting pretty chewed

31:21

up and struggling quite

31:23

a bit with it and had a hard time with it and I

31:25

was shutting people out . So

31:28

, from that standpoint , as

31:30

I went , what I saw for myself

31:32

, once I discovered , once I started

31:34

going through the identification

31:36

, through some of the reunion pieces , through

31:39

the assembly of a new identity , trying

31:41

to figure out how to put pieces together

31:43

in a puzzle , that now at least I

31:45

was looking at pieces that belonged in that puzzle and

31:48

I wasn't trying to fit pieces that didn't belong in

31:50

that puzzle . What I can say

31:52

is in retrospect , I

31:54

was continually increasing my

31:56

alcohol use significantly and

31:59

shortly after I finished

32:02

the first complete swipe on the book , I

32:04

came to terms with the fact that

32:06

I did not have control over my drinking and

32:09

I needed to go through a treatment program . And I did so

32:12

. I went through an out initially

32:14

an outpatient treatment program . I went through

32:17

an AA program and it really helped

32:19

me develop and find

32:21

those additional coping mechanisms

32:24

and tools that helped me manage

32:26

my day-to-day living . And that becomes

32:28

important because I think sometimes , as I start

32:30

talking about spiritual tools and

32:33

yeah , I'm talking about maybe faith , maybe

32:35

faith is a tool that you use , maybe

32:37

a gratitude list is a tool that you

32:39

use and I'm saying all these are tools , I'm

32:42

not saying that they're gospel , I'm saying they're

32:44

tools . And so when

32:46

I bring it up , sometimes people will counter

32:49

with you know you're just avoiding trying

32:51

to heal . You know you're running away from it , you're

32:55

not facing the pain that you

32:57

have and letting the pain , you know , become

32:59

internalized and healed . No

33:03

, I'm trying to deal with the pain . I don't

33:05

need to be submerged in the pain 24-7

33:08

. As a matter of fact , I don't want to be submerged

33:10

in the pain 24-7 . I want to

33:12

have the best possible life I can . So

33:14

at times in between

33:17

my healing , when I'm ready

33:19

to heal , I work on healing . When

33:21

, psychologically , I'm just not

33:23

there , I just don't , and

33:26

maybe that's when I'm using some of those spiritual

33:28

tools to help me cope . So my number

33:30

one recommendation in hindsight

33:32

if to anybody , if

33:35

you're pulling out of the fog , if you discover

33:37

you're suddenly adopted , if you have an MPE

33:40

, assess your

33:42

coping mechanisms , because you're going to be in for a rough

33:44

ride . You're going to be in for a bumpy ride

33:46

. You're going to have to have something that's going

33:48

to hold you together , not pull you apart . So

33:51

I'd really encourage anybody

33:53

to check that out . If you find your

33:55

first inclination to , you wouldn't believe

33:57

what I heard pour us a drink . That's

33:59

probably not a good sign , you know

34:01

. And what I'm going to say is get that under control

34:04

first , because there's

34:06

a good shot . You'll mess a

34:09

lot of things up as you go through it .

34:12

Well , it'll become your go-to right , and I

34:14

loved the way that you position that

34:16

as , instead of coping

34:18

on the numbing experience and

34:21

there's a lot of ways to do that there's

34:24

, you know , as you said , for you alcohol , there's

34:26

drugs and there's , you know , other

34:29

vices , I would say as well

34:31

. I think it's just a really good lived

34:33

experience to share out

34:35

that in the early

34:37

stages of whatever journey you're

34:39

on , or whatever stage of the journey

34:42

that you're on , know what they are . I

34:44

don't know , even for myself , if I know what

34:46

all of my good tools are . I would say

34:48

every day that I need a new tool anyway

34:50

. Just for me . There's

34:53

, you know , there's a lot of things that I

34:55

wish I could do differently or behave differently , so

34:59

you have to be very pragmatic about

35:01

that .

35:01

Yeah , and I'm the first to admit

35:04

that I my initial

35:06

reaction and I would say I've learned

35:08

a lot more about myself and I can

35:10

see that many times I'm reacting

35:13

out of old wounds that

35:15

just didn't heal up properly and

35:17

it will create responses

35:20

that maybe could be handled better

35:22

if maybe some

35:24

of those other tools were in place . Some

35:27

of those . You know one of the

35:29

things I remember , you know , going through AA , pause

35:31

you , just before you react

35:33

, you just stop , think about

35:35

it , put it on the back burner

35:37

, decide you're not going

35:39

to decide till tomorrow , let it stew

35:42

, let the emotion work through itself

35:44

. You know , I mean that's just another

35:46

tool , a gratitude list . I'm feeling

35:48

down , I'm frustrated , I can't get anywhere . Just

35:51

start thinking about you know what is good . Well

35:53

, so far , at least now I'm dealing with reality

35:56

, at least now I know I'm adopted , now

35:58

I have a birth mother . You know I

36:00

do have my own . You know you can start

36:03

to build that . And you know one of the

36:05

things that a counselor told me and

36:07

he would say Fred , where's

36:09

your gratitude list ? I was like I

36:11

took it as a negative thing Like , are you trying to punish

36:13

me ? No , he wasn't trying to punish me . He was

36:15

trying to help me learn how to redirect

36:18

my emotional well-being , how to get

36:20

out of a hole and then come at it later

36:22

from a different angle , but not

36:24

be stuck in it , not be ruled by it , and

36:27

that's what I think so many of the tools from

36:29

recovery as I went

36:31

through the I'm going to say , the healing process

36:33

in adoption , coming

36:35

to terms with who I was , what I was

36:38

, where I came from and

36:40

how that impacted me , those tools came

36:42

in very handy and they were

36:44

lifesavers .

36:46

Yeah , I could see some great value to some

36:48

of those . And I wonder , in the

36:50

context of the gratitude list , you're

36:53

not insinuating gratitude

36:55

for being adopted or right

36:58

? That is an entirely different

37:00

topic . I would never want our listeners

37:02

to pull that together . As you know , I'm

37:04

trying to be grateful for the situation

37:07

, it's just grateful for life .

37:10

Yeah , yeah , at the end of the day

37:12

, I am not the

37:14

adoption . The adoption

37:16

is an experience that has affected

37:18

me . So from that standpoint

37:21

, you know when I talk about a gratitude list , there's

37:23

many other aspects in my life and what I

37:25

try to do on those times when

37:27

sometimes it just gets overwhelming

37:29

, I reach into those other areas

37:32

of my life . I have children of my own . I can start

37:34

thinking about that . I can look at

37:36

other aspects . I live

37:38

out in a rural area . I love being rural

37:40

, I love walking my dog , I love

37:42

being by Lake Michigan , I love walking on

37:44

the beach . I can think of those other

37:47

aspects in my life that aren't where

37:49

I'm stuck right now . I mean because that's

37:51

what happens , I think and that's why I call it stuck in the

37:53

muck is I saw within

37:55

myself I would just get stuck there for so

37:57

long I didn't have the

37:59

tools to help get me unstuck

38:02

.

38:03

I like that . So I always ask

38:05

this question and I never tell my guests I'm going to

38:07

ask it and if you've listened , you might

38:09

not already know what I'm going to say . But if there was

38:11

one thing , fred , in this conversation

38:13

today which has been fantastic that

38:16

you would have liked me to ask you or

38:18

you would have liked us to have touched upon , what

38:21

would that be ?

38:23

You know , I'd say , if there's anything

38:25

else , respect your own journey

38:27

, for whatever it is . You know , I

38:30

think too many times

38:32

it's easy and

38:34

comfortable to fall

38:37

into I'm going to say the trap of

38:39

like well , they did it this way

38:41

, or I don't want to hurt these people

38:44

, or whatever

38:46

. I mean . I think your journey is going to

38:48

be your journey and it's time to push

38:50

your push . When it's time to back

38:52

off , back off , I would

38:54

say the one little asterisk I'm going

38:56

to put on that is never

38:58

forget . People die

39:01

and people change their minds . So

39:03

if you have access to something , there is

39:05

that pressure on there . But at the same time I'm going

39:07

to say you need to balance that against

39:11

yourself . And if you're not ready

39:13

to move into a new corner , maybe you're not

39:15

ready to meet your biological mother

39:17

, maybe you don't want to really meet

39:19

your siblings , Maybe you don't want to go to the graveyards

39:22

of your ancestors . You know , maybe

39:24

you don't need to see your original birth certificate

39:26

today . If it doesn't feel right , don't do

39:28

it .

39:30

That is a great perspective . I

39:32

love that and I love to the respect

39:34

your journey . I might steal

39:36

that sometime . I

39:39

got this great level of information

39:42

from this great guest friend and you

39:44

know so much to take away , but a nugget

39:46

just respect your journey . Well

39:48

, I want to thank you for being with us today

39:51

. One more plug for your book . It'll be in

39:53

the show notes . It is Forbidden Roots

39:55

. It was released in October

39:57

of 2022 . I have read it . It's

40:00

a great read and I love that . That

40:02

. It is the perspective of a male which

40:04

we need more of that to come out

40:06

in our community . Forbidden Roots

40:08

, fred Nicora .

40:10

Thank you , lisa , I really appreciate it and

40:13

thank your listenership . I appreciate

40:15

the opportunity to tell my story .

40:16

Thank you for listening to today's episode . Make

40:19

sure to rate , review and share

40:21

. Want to join the conversation ? Contact

40:24

us at wanderingtreeadoptdcom

40:26

.