0:06

Welcome to Wandering Tree Podcast

0:08

. I am your host , Lisa Am .

0:11

Yeah , the holidays , you know

0:13

any of the holidays anniversaries

0:15

. Those dates

0:18

in particular were very

0:20

difficult for me throughout , and in particular

0:23

once the updates and

0:25

I had no report .

0:38

Welcome to Wandering Tree Podcast . In our

0:40

latest episode and today , i

0:42

have with me an author , a

0:44

first birth mother . I'm excited

0:47

about this particular episode , as

0:49

I am many times with our episodes , but

0:51

I really am looking forward

0:54

to this conversation . I

0:56

have read her book and , as most

0:58

of you know , i don't spend a lot of time talking

1:00

about all of the books I've read , but the ones that

1:02

really resonate with me . I go out

1:05

and I try to get the author to come here

1:07

and we talk through a lot of the

1:09

deep pieces of that puzzle

1:11

, and so what I would like to do at this time

1:13

is turn the mic over to

1:15

Candice Cahill and , candice

1:18

, introduce yourself to our listeners , please

1:20

.

1:21

Okay , thank you so much , Lisa Ann

1:23

, for having me on the podcast . As

1:26

you said , my name is Candice Cahill . I live

1:28

in Alaska , which is something

1:30

people are always like oh , that's so cool . Well

1:32

, i live in a very remote place

1:35

near Denali . I work as

1:37

a National Park Ranger during the summertime

1:39

and in the wintertime I'm an artist

1:41

. I'm very fortunate to be

1:43

in a committed

1:45

partnership with a partner

1:47

who has allowed me

1:49

to really focus in on my art in

1:52

the winter months , so I consider

1:54

myself very fortunate and very privileged

1:56

for that . I am a birth mother

1:59

. I placed my son Michael

2:01

when he was an infant in 1990

2:04

and I specifically use birth

2:06

mother there and placed there

2:08

because back in the day when all

2:10

this happened , i absolutely

2:13

completely bought into the

2:15

adoptionist beautiful narrative and

2:17

used all of the terms they gave

2:19

me and just

2:22

kind of went down the rabbit hole with them . The

2:24

kind of coming out of the adoption fog

2:27

for people that

2:29

use that terminology began

2:31

after I reunited with my son

2:33

When I was 18 . I

2:35

began to really take a look at

2:37

the decisions I'd

2:40

made and the coercion that took place that

2:42

put me kind of on

2:44

that path . But my son

2:46

Michael he was

2:49

raised in Minnesota . I didn't know where he

2:51

was . It was an open adoption , but I

2:53

didn't have direct contact . It was early

2:56

on in the days of what's considered

2:58

open adoption , so I could quote unquote

3:00

pick parents from vetted people

3:02

and meet them one time

3:04

after the adoption was finalized

3:07

and then I would get updates once a year And

3:09

, as often happens , back then and

3:11

even in today's world , updates

3:14

stopped . They stopped when he was six

3:17

. I had to go request from

3:19

the agency for the next couple of

3:21

years until finally going in and

3:23

saying you need to do something . They

3:25

read the send these updates and the

3:27

response was they don't have to . It's

3:29

not a legal document which I

3:32

had kind of . You

3:34

know , it's a . It's a manipulation tool , but I

3:36

had no recourse . But we did reunite when he turned

3:38

18 . We got to meet in

3:40

person when he was 20 . I really tried

3:42

to let him lead the way and

3:45

it was still is the

3:47

one of the most beautiful days of my life , but

3:49

it's the only time we got to meet . He passed

3:51

away in his sleep when he was 23

3:53

. The grief of

3:56

losing him a second time almost

3:58

completely destroyed me because I

4:00

hadn't dealt with the grief of the first time

4:03

. You know , now we're coming up on 10

4:05

years and I still

4:07

feel really sad . A lot

4:09

of times I wish for so many

4:11

things to have been different . But

4:14

now I'm trying to focus on what can I do to make

4:16

it better , and writing my book was

4:18

a big part of that , because people need to know

4:20

the you

4:22

know the complicated mess , unplanned

4:25

pregnancies , at least for a lot of people . They go

4:28

into this and then they get tricked

4:30

and coerced and manipulated into

4:32

doing things and making a permanent

4:34

, finding a permanent solution to a temporary

4:37

problem . Yeah , i'm sorry

4:39

if I went on too long . You didn't

4:41

at all . That's kind of the nutshell

4:43

.

4:44

Yeah , no , not at all , and I think that

4:46

is a great setup for our conversation

4:49

. The name of your book is called

4:51

Goodbye Again and it's your memoir

4:53

, and when

4:55

you and I met we were at the

4:58

Untangling Your Roots Conference

5:00

in Kentucky . I picked up your

5:02

book , you signed it , you

5:04

put a little note in there make sure you have a glass

5:06

of wine and tissue and

5:08

I said , okay , not knowing . And

5:11

then I left and

5:13

I knew I was going to reach out to you at some

5:15

point in time . We kind of talked about that Read

5:17

your book . And this is what I have said

5:19

to pretty much anyone that I talk

5:22

about relative to your book . Your book was the

5:24

book I did not know I

5:26

needed to read , and the reason

5:28

I say it that way is because

5:30

when I think of all of the books that

5:33

I have read over the course of

5:35

getting connected to the community

5:37

, sitting in the conversation

5:39

, saving space for that , that

5:42

area , this one

5:44

helped bridge for

5:46

me things that I have always

5:48

thought about my approach to some

5:50

of those topics . It was really

5:53

a builder of understanding

5:55

and I thought to myself as

5:57

I finished it wow , i

6:00

think every adopting might want to read this

6:02

one because there's so many

6:04

themes in it , and there are

6:06

themes that we co-share

6:09

and may not realize . We co-share

6:11

if that makes sense to you .

6:13

It absolutely does , absolutely .

6:15

Yeah . So I want to talk a little bit about

6:17

relinquishment and I'm going to share

6:20

out kind of my adoptive

6:22

perspective and then you can talk

6:24

about your perspective as

6:26

you were going through that as well . I

6:28

have known that I am an adoptee

6:31

since kindergarten . That's my first

6:33

memory of knowing I was adopted

6:35

. I do not appreciate

6:37

as an adult the terms of

6:39

your birth mother loved you

6:42

so much she gave you away

6:44

. I just can't , as

6:46

an adult , appreciate those terms

6:48

. I don't believe I

6:50

really ever appreciated that term . That

6:53

term , that narrative

6:55

set the tone for

6:57

how I started viewing

7:00

myself as a human , because

7:02

there is nothing in that sentence

7:04

at any point in time that tells

7:06

me I was worthy . When I was reading

7:08

your book and thinking about

7:11

the relinquishment and the struggle

7:13

you went through , i immediately

7:15

had that empathy for you as

7:17

well as a birth mother , because I

7:19

could now see the other side of

7:22

that conversation . So

7:24

maybe I'm asking you for our listeners

7:26

talk a little bit about you know

7:28

, just relinquishment , the

7:31

theme of relinquishment for you , what

7:33

it meant to you then and what it means to you today

7:35

.

7:37

Yeah . So going back , looking

7:39

back at my younger self

7:42

, in going

7:44

through the what's called decision-making

7:47

counseling that was provided by

7:50

the agency , which was a religious

7:53

agency , looking back at that now

7:55

, they never used the word

7:57

relinquishment . They never

7:59

used that word . Everything was

8:01

just about this is adoption

8:03

, this is a beautiful experience

8:05

, all of those things . And they

8:07

specifically used

8:10

that terminology with me

8:12

to say , if you want

8:14

to be a good mother , you

8:16

need to give your child away , because

8:19

you are not . You

8:21

are you , you have . You have none

8:23

of the skills , attributes

8:26

, any of the things that are

8:28

Quote-unquote required for you

8:30

to be a good mother

8:32

. And they back that up

8:35

with specific you

8:37

know , activities and and pulling

8:39

out things from my past and all of these things

8:41

that that clearly indicated

8:44

that , yeah , i did

8:46

. I was poor , i didn't have an education

8:48

, i come from abusive background , all of those

8:50

things . And instead of

8:52

saying , here's an opportunity

8:55

to teach you or to give you

8:57

some resources and those things , they

9:00

just latch down to that and I I

9:02

bought into it hook , line and sinker

9:04

, having gone into it from

9:06

that background , particularly of

9:08

abuse and all of those

9:10

things . So my , my self-esteem was so low that

9:12

it was like , okay , here's my opportunity

9:15

to be a good person , as

9:17

if I did this , if I follow the rules now

9:19

, at the same time , i

9:22

was doing an outstanding job of

9:24

dissociating from the fact that I

9:26

didn't feel that way , that that was

9:28

not what was going on inside my

9:30

body , and Because

9:32

I had grown up with abuse

9:35

systematic , you know , long-term

9:38

sexual abuse

9:40

and and neglect and all of those

9:42

things I was pretty good at

9:45

the dissociating from it . So so

9:47

I did , i shut that all off , and I never

9:49

at though at that time or even

9:51

in the few years following , i never thought

9:53

about . What I had done

9:56

was relinquishing . I Had

9:59

placed my baby , i had given

10:01

him a better life , i had done

10:04

all the things that would now

10:06

qualify me to be

10:08

into that better grade

10:10

of human being , and it's horrible

10:13

, and it's horrible that That

10:16

it was . It felt so sanctioned

10:18

, it felt like I Mean

10:21

it just to me

10:23

when I look back at it now , as an unbelievable

10:25

, believable betrayal of my spirit

10:27

and my soul , and I

10:29

wasn't capable of figuring it out on

10:31

my own And I didn't have the

10:33

family support to help me see

10:36

differently . And yeah , and

10:38

I just I look at it and it's a tragedy

10:40

.

10:40

Doesn't it just rip your heart out to

10:42

us as where you are now in life , and

10:45

I feel it in the context

10:47

of you're speaking of your self-esteem

10:50

, your worth and the

10:52

positioning of and becoming

10:54

a good person as a result of

10:57

this action , because you're incapable

10:59

, based off of your circumstances

11:01

and at the same time I

11:04

I just shared with you , knowing

11:06

I was adopted , did

11:08

Put a chink in my armor

11:10

per se , to Myself

11:13

worth and my self-esteem . And

11:15

how ironic that

11:17

the two Angles

11:19

of that little event which

11:21

isn't little is not little

11:24

yielded Years

11:26

of probably the same ultimate

11:28

result as it relates to the

11:30

my own Perspective of me

11:32

as a person and your perspective

11:35

of you as a person . Just , it's

11:37

phenomenal for me .

11:38

Yeah , so so many parallels

11:41

, right , and like you know

11:43

you're talking about , you know reading

11:45

books of , so I've read quite

11:47

a few , you know adopted people's

11:50

stories and and I reflected

11:52

in so many of the pieces

11:54

of that and it's , It's

11:56

, it's kind of it's not only is it eye-opening

11:59

and just really sad , just

12:02

really sad .

12:03

Yeah , you know the other kind of moving

12:05

us forward a little bit in our conversation . One

12:08

of the other things that just

12:10

really Sat

12:12

well with me and reading your book

12:14

and hearing your story and we could have had

12:16

this as a Conversation without me reading

12:18

the book and I think I would have felt the

12:21

same way . The duration of time

12:23

from the event to reunion Has

12:25

so many Year

12:27

over year parallels as

12:30

well . It is

12:32

around their birthdays

12:34

, major hallmark holidays

12:37

and major family holidays

12:40

. One of the things I

12:42

know that was important for me

12:44

when I met my birth mother was

12:47

to try to understand did you think

12:49

of me all of those many years

12:51

and for us it was 40 , some on

12:53

my birthday and Mother's Day and

12:56

every family holiday , because I

12:58

know I did from that moment forward

13:00

, and to just have

13:03

that opportunity to hear

13:05

through your words yeah

13:07

, you did , and so it's

13:09

probably pretty common , drawing

13:12

some , you know , parallel conclusions

13:14

that other birth

13:16

moms actually are doing that as well

13:18

And that comforts me as an adoptee

13:21

to have that knowledge , not

13:23

just my own knowledge , right , i

13:25

kind of asked my birth mother before

13:28

she passed but to know it

13:30

has a common theme And

13:32

so it kind of talked through for

13:34

your experience of

13:37

those holidays and

13:39

you know just your emotional

13:41

mental state at grand level .

13:44

So for me , i wouldn't be

13:46

this far along which

13:48

I feel like I've come a long way in my healing through

13:51

all of this but I wouldn't be this far along if it weren't

13:53

for my partner , who I got together

13:55

with when Michael was six , and

13:58

so Tom knew me when I was pregnant . We

14:00

were friends . Back then Tom was actually the

14:02

only person other

14:05

than a few family members to have put

14:07

his hands on my mate and

14:09

experience the pregnancy

14:11

with me , right And sit with me

14:13

in my grief because

14:15

I was already breathing , and

14:18

so Tom has never been afraid

14:20

to talk about it . And he

14:22

, immediately when we first got together

14:24

, i said to him about

14:26

two weeks before Michael's birthday , i said his

14:29

birthday is coming . It's going to

14:31

be hard , we just need to know . And

14:34

he's like he automatically

14:36

was like I can be

14:39

with you , i can sit with you with this

14:41

. I don't need to fix it , i don't need to . There

14:43

isn't anything that I can do , that

14:45

I can sit with you and be with you and allow

14:47

you to

14:51

experience whatever you are

14:53

capable of , because I still wasn't , i wasn't good

14:55

at feeling it or talking about it

14:57

or anything else , but he was just very open

15:00

, and that

15:02

was the case after that Mother's

15:04

Day coming up , my birthday

15:07

, all of these different anniversaries

15:09

and Christmas , et cetera And

15:11

he would always he began to always

15:13

check in with me about two to three

15:15

weeks before any of these days and

15:18

be like how are you feeling this year

15:20

? Do

15:23

you , are you scared , are you angry ? Or

15:25

you know where are you at And what do you ? what

15:27

would you like to do to honor

15:29

Michael , to

15:31

honor this experience , to honor

15:33

your motherhood ? I mean , just being

15:36

just saying that I was still a mother , even

15:38

though I didn't have my son with me

15:40

was a huge step . I didn't

15:42

have a thought about it , never thought about

15:44

it . I thought of myself as a mother , but

15:47

I didn't deserve it . I didn't deserve

15:49

it because not only did I not have my son , i gave

15:52

him away . Who

15:54

does that ? Who deserves to be called a mother

15:56

? if you've given away your child , i mean that's

15:58

. It just didn't make sense to me

16:00

, right ? And

16:03

? and so for me , every

16:05

single year , every single holiday , every single

16:07

birthday , that was what was going on in my

16:09

head . I was cycling through this entire

16:11

process every single time that

16:14

, okay , i have a

16:16

child , i don't have him in

16:18

my life . I know nothing about him . I

16:20

wish I did , which

16:22

automatically goes to you don't deserve it

16:24

because you gave him away with

16:26

Ben , my Tom , coming in and saying , no

16:29

, you're , it's okay . You need to look through

16:31

that . And it was this vicious cycle

16:33

every single time , because

16:36

I'm really really

16:38

good at tearing

16:40

myself down And

16:43

I have had to learn to

16:46

recognize those voices

16:48

and those messages and

16:51

cut them off in

16:53

the sense of yes , you

16:55

made some decisions . I mean , i

16:57

need to recognize what I did wrong . Be

17:00

like yeah , you made a mistake , so

17:03

what are you going to do about it ? now ? You can't go back

17:05

and change it , you just need to move forward

17:07

. So it's a . For me , it was getting

17:10

to the point where I could accept my

17:12

role in all of this and

17:14

then figure out what I can do moving forward

17:16

.

17:17

Yeah , you know , it's really interesting about

17:19

that portion of your

17:21

story , hearing you right now talk

17:24

about your partner , tom , asking

17:27

you a couple of weeks in advance

17:29

how you were feeling that

17:31

year . Knowing it was a journey

17:33

, i'm curious what

17:35

was your recovery time ? on the back end

17:37

And I speak from my own experience

17:40

My hardest day

17:42

is actually Mother's Day

17:44

, but it's hard for me for a couple

17:47

of of couple of reasons . I

17:49

didn't have a strong connection with my

17:51

adoption mother And so therefore

17:53

I always feel like I've missed out on

17:56

, you know , those mother-daughter relationships

17:58

that everybody just let you know . When she's my best

18:00

friend , i can't even imagine what it's like

18:02

. And then I missed out on the

18:05

relationship with my biological mother

18:07

, and then I am not a

18:09

, i have not had my own biological

18:11

children , and so that whole

18:14

day is just like one of my

18:16

worst days ever . Every year And

18:18

there was one year that it became my my

18:21

like breaking day , and

18:23

the recovery afterwards

18:25

was was pretty significant

18:27

as well . From that day and that

18:29

was about eight years ago

18:32

and forward I now

18:34

approach that day differently and

18:36

in an attempt to shorten my

18:38

recovery . So what does recovery

18:41

on the back end look like for you ?

18:43

So for , me , it's

18:45

a recognition that

18:47

that I'm never going to

18:49

be over it . That

18:52

so many , so many adopted people talk

18:54

about okay , i wasn't , i wasn't , i wasn't . Being

18:56

adopted isn't a one and done thing

18:58

, it's your whole life . You

19:00

are , you weren't , you are adopted

19:03

And

19:05

I , for me , it has to do with

19:07

looking at it from from

19:09

that kind of same thing that it's an , it's an ongoing

19:12

and every day

19:15

, every year is different And

19:17

I need to be capable and willing

19:19

to recognize that I'm

19:22

never going to be healed

19:24

. I can be healing , i

19:26

can , i can be in the moment working

19:29

towards finding some

19:31

peace with all of it

19:33

, but I'm it's not going to be

19:35

done . It's never going to be done . You

19:38

know the the I like the term post

19:41

traumatic growth you know

19:43

finding some ways to

19:45

get through it , finding new , new techniques

19:48

and new skills and and finding

19:51

that inner growth , and I'm always

19:53

looking for new ways to do that

19:55

or new avenues to

19:57

and and for me . I think that the

19:59

, the recovery or

20:01

the you know , coming around them to

20:03

the other side has

20:06

been a lot to do with just

20:08

recognizing my emotions

20:10

and my feelings and being okay with

20:12

them , because I'd spent so long

20:14

just dissociating from them because I thought they were

20:16

all bad . That was all bad

20:18

And I didn't want to be bad , i wanted to be good

20:20

. I can embrace those quote

20:23

unquote bad parts of myself . They can be

20:25

a part of who I am and I can still

20:27

move forward and work towards being

20:29

a better person .

20:30

I love the aspect of being at

20:33

peace with things , and

20:35

that is relatable for me

20:37

as well , in terms of our journey and

20:39

the connection and why I

20:42

continue to say this

20:44

is the book I needed to read . It helps

20:46

put me at peace . So , as

20:48

an adoptee , i am gaining

20:51

peace every day , and

20:53

so that that makes me a

20:55

different person in

20:58

2024 and 2025

21:01

and years to come , and the closer

21:03

I get to having peace on all of those

21:05

areas of the conversation

21:07

, the more situated I

21:10

will be for me maybe not everybody

21:12

else , but it definitely will be best for me

21:14

And so I love I really do love

21:16

the aspect of you talking

21:18

through it on your side of this conversation

21:21

. That it's an important piece of

21:24

moving and growing And I love

21:26

the post traumatic growth

21:28

narrative . I love that

21:31

. That angle . Yeah , that's

21:33

very wow . That's very

21:35

wow . I'm just like and I'm just thinking

21:37

of it and thinking

21:39

of a conversation I just had with

21:41

the husband and a friend of ours

21:43

, the mom , and they've been on the

21:46

show in previous seasons and we're

21:48

together this weekend And

21:51

what brings that to the table is us talking

21:53

about childhood

21:55

trauma recovery , ptsd

21:59

, the jobs that they've had , you

22:01

know , military PTSD and

22:03

sitting in , sitting

22:06

in the trauma , year over year over

22:08

year over year . So I I'm

22:10

going to reiterate I love that

22:13

narrative of post traumatic

22:16

growth , i love that . Well

22:18

, let's , let's kind of get a

22:20

little further down , because that was years

22:22

. We're talking years of those events

22:24

.

22:25

Yes .

22:25

Right And again we're connecting ourselves

22:28

to each other in the context

22:30

of years of the same events

22:32

and similar emotions

22:35

and buildups and

22:37

let downs , and recoveries , and moving

22:39

forward and growing and coming to peace . reunion

22:42

day like the first , the

22:45

day you met

22:48

. Michael , Can you verbalize

22:50

a little bit of that for for us , because

22:52

I I will share with you then

22:54

my first day with my

22:56

birthday .

22:57

So the the best word

22:59

I have ever found to describe

23:02

the experience is surreal And

23:05

I've heard other people use that term

23:07

as well and it definitely fits for

23:09

me And part of it was , first

23:12

and foremost , just the anticipation

23:15

of it . I mean , from my perspective , that

23:17

he wanted to meet me . Number

23:19

one was , you know , just

23:21

created this incredible

23:23

euphoria , for

23:27

lack of a better word , and I think that works pretty well

23:29

. And then that anticipation of

23:31

getting to go meet him , that

23:33

he wanted to see me Being

23:35

. In the moment it was almost

23:38

there were multiple things going on

23:40

for me personally In the moment

23:42

. First of all , just to see him physically

23:44

, as opposed to a picture , to

23:47

hug him , to hold

23:49

him I really didn't want to let him go

23:51

. I also didn't want to scare him away , which

23:53

I was really afraid that I was going to scare him away , you

23:56

know . So , holding him and having so

23:58

I in my

24:00

mind , it's like there was part of me that was out of

24:02

body and out of body experience looking

24:05

down at the two of us . And

24:07

then there was also the experience of feeling like

24:09

I was thrown back to that 20

24:11

year old girl that I was , that

24:13

here I was , i had this big

24:16

man in my

24:18

arms and this was my son , And

24:20

but I felt like a little girl and

24:23

I felt completely incapable

24:25

of communicating in any

24:27

way , shape or form , And

24:29

all I really wanted to do

24:32

was grab him and put his head on

24:34

my chest and then just not ever , just

24:36

stay there And we didn't have , not even

24:38

have to talk or even just sit there with him

24:40

. But so all of that

24:42

was going on at the same time . When

24:45

we met , and then it was so , it was

24:47

me and my husband , tom , michael

24:49

, and his adoptive dad , david , and

24:52

Michael and David actually

24:54

had very similar looks , similar

24:58

mannerisms , similar . It

25:00

was rather strange . And

25:02

then you me next to him and

25:04

he looked just like me . It was just

25:07

a big boy man version of me , with

25:09

the , you know , the reddish hair

25:11

and the chubby cheeks , and his

25:13

hands were exactly like mine . I

25:15

mean , as we sat there for we

25:18

were there for almost five hours and

25:20

I just kept seeing all these things that were

25:22

me , but I could also see things that

25:24

were David , and

25:26

it was again surreal . It

25:28

was just such a surreal experience And

25:31

I was completely overwhelmed

25:33

And I am again , i'm so grateful that

25:35

Tom was there with me because he helped

25:37

to ground me . I seriously

25:40

I feel like I would have just floated away and

25:42

missed things , but Tom was able

25:45

to . You know you

25:47

could like . For some reason he could always tell when

25:49

I was going off somewhere and he would

25:51

grab my hand and hold my

25:53

hand and bring me back into the

25:55

moment . It was like the really

25:58

the most beautiful day of my life And I'm really sad

26:00

I never got to have another day with him . Yeah

26:03

.

26:04

Surreal is such a good word . Out of

26:06

body is also a

26:08

really good word . I would add

26:10

disassociation . And

26:13

here's where I'm gonna go . I did something

26:15

in preparation for this meeting

26:17

that I didn't I hadn't intended to do , but

26:19

it worked out fantastic And I am

26:21

forever grateful for this event I

26:24

recorded with Damon Davis

26:26

of Who Am I Really ? 11

26:28

hours before I met my birth

26:30

mother .

26:31

Wow .

26:33

And in that recording , knowing

26:36

where I was pacing

26:38

a room and

26:41

sharing my story , what I knew of

26:43

it up to that point , and knowing

26:46

we both knew that

26:48

on the other side of the day , right

26:50

the next day , when I would meet her , i would be

26:52

different . The reason I am grateful

26:55

for that event is because

26:57

I don't remember most

26:59

of that event , and so

27:02

I now have this opportunity

27:05

to go back and listen to me

27:07

before I met her , and

27:09

I barely sound like me to me

27:12

. And so I know

27:14

, based off of listening to

27:16

that and where I am now , i

27:18

was just like you . I was

27:20

. I was so afraid . I

27:23

just wanted perfection , whatever

27:25

that definition was in that moment , and

27:28

everything I was doing to prepare for

27:30

that event . That meeting had

27:32

so much importance , where we

27:35

were meeting , bringing in food , getting

27:37

them gifts , decorating the

27:39

room . Do I look good ? Does this outfit

27:41

look okay on me ? How's my hair , how's

27:44

my makeup ? You know , how

27:46

is she gonna think I'm fat

27:48

? Is she gonna think I'm too skinny ? I

27:51

mean all those things just

27:53

flooding your psyche

27:55

as you're about to meet

27:58

one of the more important people of your life

28:00

, and so to hear you talk about

28:02

it in the same again

28:04

, the same context on the other

28:06

side of the conversation is just

28:08

grounding . I did so , i did meet her , clearly

28:11

, and I was able to meet her two times

28:13

and then she passed away . But

28:16

you know it , just I can't

28:18

. I don't think there's anything

28:20

in any conversation

28:22

that we have be it with me , with

28:24

other adoptees , or you with other birth

28:27

moms , or birth moms and adoptees

28:30

talking that will truly prepare

28:32

any human for

28:34

that moment . We may be able to help you get to

28:36

like 50% of preparedness maybe

28:39

50% , but there isn't

28:41

anything else anyone can do because

28:44

it's your moment and you're living it

28:46

.

28:46

So yeah , i , you know , reunion

28:49

so complex and

28:51

so complicated for

28:53

, i think , everyone involved And

28:55

you see , yeah , there's absolutely nothing you can do to prepare

28:57

. I tried to read everything I could get my hands on

28:59

and , yeah , i did

29:02

not feel like it necessarily

29:04

set me up for success . But

29:07

I consider our meeting a success

29:09

, mainly because I got

29:11

to tell him that I loved him

29:13

and that I got to hold him in my arms

29:15

. And the one thing I didn't do

29:17

that I wish I would have was say I was sorry

29:20

. I wish I would have done that .

29:23

Oh , that breaks my heart to hear you say that

29:25

I don't . oh , that breaks my

29:27

heart for you , but it also breaks my heart

29:30

for him . Can you share

29:32

with me a little bit ? What would you

29:34

be sorry for ?

29:35

You know I'm sorry for sorry

29:39

for mainly for

29:42

not trying that I should

29:44

have tried . I should

29:47

have . I

29:50

mean , when I look back on it now , i

29:52

could have done it , i could have done it , i

29:54

just didn't . I didn't have anybody

29:56

in my corner . I feel like , you know , i didn't have even

29:59

if I had just one person . What if one person

30:01

had said well , you can do it , you

30:03

know , and I look at other

30:05

people my age , you know who became parents

30:07

young and they did it and they sure they fucked up shit

30:10

right . Oops , sorry , but

30:13

everybody , everybody makes mistakes , right

30:15

. That doesn't mean that you can't

30:17

, you know , do it right . And

30:20

so for me , i think the sorry mainly

30:23

comes from I

30:25

wish I would have tried . I wish I

30:27

would have kept him , yeah

30:29

, and I would not be the person that I am today . I

30:31

know that , i know that I can't go

30:33

back and change anything . I know that And

30:36

I know that his father was

30:38

wonderful . He had , you know he

30:41

, from everything that Michael ever told me , everything

30:43

that I've learned about him from other family

30:45

members . You know all of this that he

30:48

had a good upbringing

30:50

. You know all of those things , but I still

30:53

, yeah

30:55

, i still wish it could have

30:57

been different .

30:58

I understand what you're saying . I

31:00

can only speak for me . I

31:02

don't think I was ever

31:04

expecting , nor

31:07

even to this day , if she was here , i

31:09

wouldn't want Jackie to apologize

31:11

for anything . Maybe my thought

31:13

process behind that and speaking only

31:16

for myself is grounded

31:18

in potentially my age

31:20

. I don't know . I

31:23

don't know if I have ever felt

31:25

like I would have been owed an apology . That's

31:28

a hard , wow , that's hard for me

31:30

to hear you say that by the way , I mean yeah

31:33

, and .

31:33

I hear what you're saying And you know , maybe

31:36

you know , and so

31:38

the apology part is something

31:40

that has happened in more

31:42

recent years , right Since

31:44

well after he passed away , and

31:46

I think you know . And , just talking about

31:48

it , i think it actually probably has more to do with

31:51

apologizing to myself for

31:53

letting myself down And I'm also

31:55

sorry if I'm

31:58

sorry that I caused any bad

32:02

feelings by saying that , but

32:04

I just wish things

32:06

could have been different and

32:08

I wish I would have been stronger

32:11

. Yeah , so I guess you

32:13

know , looking at it from that perspective , it is more

32:15

of an apology to myself for not

32:17

believing in myself .

32:19

I can go with that , that I can go with

32:21

and really understand where

32:24

you're coming from in that . Absolutely

32:26

Well , we've moved

32:28

through . you know the fact that

32:31

you guys were in reunion and

32:33

we've talked a little bit about you know

32:35

your one meeting , but you

32:37

guys had a reunion . that was what

32:40

I would say up and down , touch and go . You

32:42

can use either of those two phrases . That

32:44

had to have been hard as well

32:47

. Did you feel

32:49

that you were ready for that , like that

32:51

roller coaster ride of

32:54

events where it would be a little bit

32:56

of communication and then no

32:59

communication , and a little bit of communication

33:01

and no communication ?

33:03

No , there was no way to be prepared

33:05

for that and I don't think there was anything that

33:07

could have been done . It

33:10

was excruciating . It was from

33:12

my perspective because , again

33:14

, i wanted

33:17

so much to build

33:19

a relationship , to create

33:21

communication between

33:23

us really of any kind , but

33:25

I had really wanted that And

33:28

I'm very grateful to Tom

33:31

and to other people in my life who were adamant

33:34

with me . It's like you need to let Michael

33:36

lead the way . He

33:38

didn't have any choice back then . He needs to be able

33:40

to guide things now and I

33:43

totally believed that and it was really

33:45

really hard to live into that And

33:48

it was . it was just so , so hard

33:50

. And I know I've talked to

33:52

other first parents who

33:55

have a similar situation where they reunited and

33:57

then the adopted person pulls back

33:59

and they just want to reach out and

34:01

I continue . I encourage them as well to

34:04

let the adopting lead the way . And

34:06

I totally understand and everyone's want to talk

34:08

to someone and they're like well , i cut it off because I can't

34:10

. I can't deal with the disappointment

34:13

, i can't deal with the

34:16

waiting for them to get back to me or to responding

34:18

to my emails or phone calls or anything else , and

34:22

I understand that , because there were

34:24

times I felt that way , but I also

34:26

think that that's wrong . That is a

34:28

wrong way to go about it . I think you have

34:31

to . you have to remain

34:33

as open .

34:36

Well , i'm going to pull together one of the

34:38

things you said at the beginning of us

34:40

talking about reunion and overwhelming right

34:42

, one of the feelings of overwhelming . I

34:44

want to pull it into this part of the conversation

34:47

. That theme of how

34:49

we all are approaching reunion

34:52

gets underplayed , and

34:54

what I mean by that is it's

34:56

overwhelming from this seat

34:59

to think about all of the potential

35:01

and you don't you really don't

35:04

know what we're going to get in many

35:06

cases . And I think it's overwhelming , from

35:08

what I've just heard you say , to

35:10

know how far to go and

35:12

to be patient . I

35:15

like the fact that you advocate

35:18

for let the adoptee

35:20

kind of drive the conversation

35:23

. At the same time , i

35:25

would say don't give

35:27

up and put your wall back up , because

35:29

it's hard . It was hard enough to go through the wall

35:31

the first time and to have to go through

35:33

the wall a second or third or fourth time

35:35

. You know I'm lucky . I don't have that experience

35:38

. I don't know what I would have done with that said

35:40

, i have had walls and I have

35:43

walked away from them because I'm

35:45

not willing to continue to beat my head

35:47

against it to try to get through

35:49

. And so there's a

35:51

. There's a likeness to that statement

35:53

too . I'm I'm tired of the

35:56

. You know , what I think I just heard you say is I'm tired

35:58

of being hurt and I'm tired of the disappointment

36:00

. That's a shared common trait . Very

36:03

good referencing to shared

36:06

experience along this journey , and

36:08

you know you mentioned that adoption and being

36:10

adopted is part of you know , it's not an event

36:12

, it's not a one and done in life . But also

36:14

, being the birth mother is not a

36:16

one and done event either , and it is a journey

36:19

as well . We talk sometimes

36:21

, too , about loss and

36:24

grief . You have a lot of grief

36:26

and I want to acknowledge that . I have

36:28

just today , heard your emotion

36:31

around that .

36:33

Um . So for

36:35

me , you know , a big part

36:37

of having had a child

36:39

that I then relinquished

36:42

. As I got beyond

36:44

that event of

36:46

relinquishment , i had thought that

36:48

I would would likely have more

36:50

children initially And

36:53

, and when I look at it now

36:55

, i am grateful that

36:57

I didn't early on , when I

36:59

was still deep in my um dissociation

37:02

from all of it . I think had

37:04

I , it would have totally thrown

37:07

me for a loop and

37:09

it would have been quite a uh , uh , an emotional

37:11

and spiritual thing that I would have had to deal with earlier

37:14

. Certainly . But you know , as I

37:16

, as I got older and then got together

37:18

with Tom , you know we talked about kids a lot

37:21

and you know I spent a lot

37:23

of random times , you know

37:25

, looking like driving by the school or going

37:27

into the school for something and thinking about . You

37:29

know how old Michael was and how he related to those

37:31

kids . There's an awful lot of time . What

37:34

I now know is referred to as like

37:36

a ghost kingdom , essentially . You know , thinking

37:38

about that and thinking , especially

37:40

after the update stopped and not having any idea

37:43

of where he was or if he was okay and all

37:45

of that . But as we got

37:47

older , you know , coming to the to the realization

37:50

that there's no way that I could have

37:52

another child , because there's no

37:54

way that I would one

37:56

day , because I always hoped he would reach out to me

37:58

, there was , there was no way that I could explain

38:00

to him why another

38:02

child was . I kept and

38:05

didn't keep him And and that

38:07

was , that was the

38:09

kind of the number one , became

38:12

the number one reason why I wouldn't . I

38:15

didn't want to have any more children , and

38:17

that has impacted us profoundly as a

38:19

couple , you know , tom and I . And

38:22

and then , you know , when

38:24

we reunited with Michael , we started dreaming about

38:27

, you know , maybe when he's a little

38:29

older he might want to come , even come

38:31

visit us . Or , you know , come for a week , come

38:33

for a couple weeks , maybe come for a whole summer . And

38:36

we had really just started dreaming

38:38

about that and talking about that And we were

38:40

just getting ready to to

38:42

talk to Michael about it when he was the next time

38:44

he contacted us , we were going to present

38:47

to him because he was at a place in his life where it seemed

38:49

like he was ready for some change , to do something

38:51

new . In the fallout of

38:53

that , since Michael passed , the grief

38:56

of losing those new dreams

38:58

was pretty profound . And it's

39:00

been very profound for Tom

39:02

because Michael

39:04

was going to be his one possibility

39:07

for having a relationship

39:10

with someone , almost in a father

39:12

figure kind of way . And

39:14

we talk about this frequently . I mean , father's

39:16

Day is coming up , you know , and

39:18

it's like I've asked Tom now , would

39:20

you like to do anything for Father's Day ? Would

39:22

you like to celebrate or would you like to honor

39:25

us ? You know , i know that he's

39:27

not , michael's not here , but we did

39:29

have dreams . So that's kind

39:31

of where we are at now

39:33

. And more recently

39:36

particularly , i'm in several

39:39

support groups , online support groups for

39:41

First Mothers , and

39:43

you know they . For some they're reunited

39:46

, some they're not . You know some some are reunions

39:48

, are good , some are not . You know all of those

39:50

things . But over and over

39:52

and over again they talk about grandkids And

39:55

it's like and I'll never have them And

39:58

and and particularly hard the

40:00

last couple of years , to just be in those groups

40:02

and be happy for them , particularly

40:04

if they've reunited with

40:06

their their relinquished child

40:08

And now they have this relationship

40:10

where they're feeling that role

40:13

to a certain extent . Maybe not what

40:15

what normal , but I

40:17

find myself being very

40:20

envious .

40:21

Your explanation really does

40:23

help strengthen understanding

40:26

. I don't know if I'm

40:28

just thinking through my own thought

40:30

process . I don't know if I've ever considered

40:33

abandonment of dreams

40:35

by a birth parent as

40:37

part of that grief and the

40:39

need to work through that . I don't . I don't

40:41

think , candice , i've ever considered it that

40:44

way . I've never really sat

40:46

in that space . That's

40:49

very humbling . I just want to thank you

40:51

for sharing , because that's very humbling for me

40:53

to think of it in that context

40:55

where you know there are a number of adoptees

40:58

that don't have children for

41:00

the simple reason that they were adopted and

41:02

they don't want to . So that's

41:04

a common theme . I

41:07

want us to kind of move now

41:09

around your support system

41:12

, your healing and some

41:14

of your go-forward activities

41:16

In your book . Tom's

41:19

all over your book and in this conversation

41:22

Tom's been all over the conversation

41:24

. I feel like I know Tom , so

41:26

if I ever get the opportunity to meet him in person

41:28

, you might just want to forewarn him . I'm probably gonna hug

41:30

him because I'm a hugger and you

41:32

know I have a good support

41:34

system , and so what I would like to

41:37

ask you to share

41:39

is kind of some of the things that you have

41:41

done . What are some things

41:43

you're doing to kind of move forward

41:45

. That would be applicable regardless

41:47

if you're a birth mom or an adoptee .

41:50

Yeah , i have been very

41:53

intentional with the

41:55

steps I'm trying

41:57

to take to become

42:00

more whole I guess it's

42:02

the best way for me to put it . Certainly

42:08

, the writing my book , the writing part of it , was

42:10

really to help me process

42:12

everything . When I initially started

42:14

writing , i didn't plan to publish it . I was just

42:16

writing it because I needed to put

42:20

it on paper and I'm

42:22

so grateful I did because it did . It

42:24

was a big tool that

42:26

I used to help me process

42:28

so much of all of this

42:30

The intentionally looking

42:33

for specific things to help me

42:35

. So those things were I

42:37

have horrible self-esteem . How do I fix

42:39

that ? Like literally researching

42:42

, how do you increase your self-esteem

42:44

and then finding those things

42:46

and doing them and making

42:49

them a part of my routine

42:51

. And it took a long time to get

42:53

it a routine in place

42:55

, but I have it now and I

42:57

can clearly see the benefits

43:00

of that . I can see it in my work life

43:02

, i can see it in my personal lives , i can see it

43:04

in so many ways . And the same thing

43:06

is true for learning

43:09

to . Part of that is learning self-compassion

43:11

and compassion for other people

43:13

in whatever their experiences may

43:15

be Learning . How do

43:19

you sit with some of these really horrible

43:22

feelings because it feels like

43:24

crap and my

43:26

body when something bad . But

43:29

something feels bad , my initial

43:32

reaction now is to shut

43:35

it down because I don't want to feel it . So

43:37

learning techniques and tools

43:39

to stop that initial reaction

43:41

and try to create a new reaction , and

43:44

I'm still working on that . I don't know

43:46

that I'll ever get through that necessarily

43:48

, but I am getting better

43:50

at it . I mean , i really I've been

43:52

very intentional , looking for specific

43:54

things to help me with communication

43:57

, you know , continuing to take little

44:00

courses about learning how

44:02

to talk with people

44:04

instead of at people . I

44:06

think I've been really good at that for a long time

44:09

and I'd rather talk with people than at people

44:11

. With the book , you know , once I started , once

44:13

I made the decision to publish it , tom

44:15

and I talked a lot about , if I do

44:17

that , what are going to be the consequences

44:19

and or ramifications of that , because

44:22

it's big and talking to the people

44:24

that are in the book you know , michael's adoptive

44:27

family and and just working

44:29

, working through and just be like we

44:31

don't know for sure what's going to happen with all of this

44:33

, but we need to be ready for there

44:35

to be consequences , fallout

44:38

or good things , you know , good

44:40

, bad , whatever it may be and being

44:43

willing to , to address

44:45

whatever comes up . So that was a very

44:47

specific decision

44:50

to put it out there . And you

44:53

know there are other people that that you

44:55

know put up books and they change your name . It's like I didn't want

44:57

to change my name . I didn't want to change it and I want to be

44:59

. I want to be accountable to it . And now

45:01

, after it's been released , i

45:04

feel like my , my

45:07

journey with it . I'm continuing

45:09

to use it as a tool to feel

45:11

because I'm sharing

45:13

it with people , specifically to

45:15

open dialogues and

45:18

finding avenues to do

45:20

that , whether it's with , you know , people like you , on podcasts

45:23

and getting the word out , or I'm

45:25

going back to . You know , i'm

45:27

a social worker . That's what I ended up getting

45:30

a degree in . I'm going back to my

45:32

alma mater and working with them to

45:34

developing a curriculum . That's like a

45:36

relinquishment , one-on-one . You know

45:38

these are the realities and

45:41

as I'm doing that , i'm also

45:43

being sure that I'm amplifying

45:46

adoptee voices because , again

45:48

, they're the ones who've been silenced

45:50

in all of this . I mean , certainly , i think birth , birth

45:53

parents have been silenced too , but more

45:55

so I absolutely way more so

45:57

adopted people , because I

46:00

feel like I was capable of

46:02

writing my story in a way that

46:05

allowed people to

46:07

experience it along with me

46:09

and and feel compassion

46:11

in those moments . It helps them

46:14

to stay open to talking about it

46:16

. That , to me , is the big issue

46:19

, is that these these issues

46:21

and the feelings and the emotions around relinquishment

46:24

and adoption are very they're charged

46:26

and we need to kind of take

46:28

a little bit of that charge off so that it doesn't make it

46:31

so scary to talk about you

46:34

absolutely make a hundred percent sense

46:37

to me and I would say on

46:39

long those lines , that is

46:41

the advocacy that I think many

46:43

of us are pushing forward .

46:45

One is better understanding

46:47

, better ways of addressing

46:50

some of those items , more

46:52

educational opportunities

46:55

, experiences , material

46:57

, and then really again creating

47:00

a bridge between all of these

47:02

different humans that

47:04

are dealing with human things

47:06

, and we compound it with this

47:08

topic . Well , i love everything

47:11

that we have talked about today and

47:13

I always kind of move into this space

47:16

next as we're getting ready

47:18

to wrap up . We have talked a

47:20

lot . I I can't tell you how thankful

47:23

I am to have had you today on the show . I

47:25

I just again feel such a kindred

47:27

spirit with you . Your

47:29

book goodbye again was

47:32

the book I needed and the moment I needed

47:34

it , and thank you , thank

47:36

you for what you did to write that and

47:38

to put it out there and to put your story out

47:40

there and to understand that there could

47:43

be positive and negative consequences

47:45

to that , and so I really want to raise

47:47

you up in that in that way . If there was anything

47:50

I could have asked you during the course of this

47:52

conversation that I have not , what would

47:54

it be ?

47:54

the one thing that I always

47:56

like to reiterate , i

47:59

guess and that's what I'll do here is

48:01

, you know , when it comes to

48:03

adoption in

48:06

our society in general , the

48:08

thing that is most

48:10

often either purposefully

48:13

ignored or not

48:15

recognized or even not

48:17

even thought about by the vast majority

48:19

of people is that when an adoption

48:22

takes place , their identity is

48:24

erased and a new birth certificate

48:26

is issued . I mean , if , maybe , if

48:28

adoption were different and we didn't have

48:31

to erase somebody's past in

48:33

order for them to have a future , maybe

48:35

that would be different . But right now

48:37

, adoption always , always

48:39

, always begins with loss , this

48:41

basically the destruction

48:44

of one family and

48:46

then the creation of a new family . And

48:49

if we can keep that

48:51

, remember that , that , that the

48:53

foundation , the foundation

48:55

of every adoption is built on grief , maybe

48:59

we can make some changes .

49:00

Maybe we can can get there yeah

49:03

, well said , very well said well

49:05

. I want to thank you for coming on the show today . It

49:08

has been my pleasure . I typically

49:10

don't fond , but I feel like I'm a little fawny

49:12

right now , and so you are

49:14

welcome here anytime for any reason

49:17

. It has been my pleasure thank

49:19

you so much .

49:20

Yeah , this has been wonderful . I , you , and

49:22

I feel like you and I could talk for hours and

49:24

I would agree .

49:26

I would absolutely agree . Well , thank you and

49:28

we'll see you soon . Thank you

49:31

for listening to today's episode . Make

49:33

sure to rate , review and share

49:35

. Want to join the conversation ? contact

49:38

us at wanderingtreeadoptedcom

49:40

.