0:06

I'm still struggling with thinking

0:08

of myself as being Native

0:10

American . Not because I have

0:13

any kind of prejudice , just it's

0:15

not something I grow up thinking

0:17

about myself . Nobody gave me a

0:19

clue that that was something

0:21

in my background . I was told I was Irish

0:24

and German , which I am .

0:37

Welcome to Wandering Tree Podcast . I am

0:39

your host , lisa Ann . We are an

0:41

experienced-based podcast focused

0:43

on sharing the journey of adoption

0:45

, identity , life search

0:47

and reunion . With

0:49

me today is Julie McGew . She

0:52

is the award-winning author of

0:54

Twice a Daughter a Search

0:56

for Identity , family and

0:58

Belonging . She has recently

1:01

launched a new book titled

1:03

Belonging Matters Conversations

1:05

on Adoption , family and Kinship

1:08

. Welcome , julie to the show

1:10

. How are you today ? Thanks , lisa

1:12

. Thanks for having me Absolutely

1:15

Well . We're looking forward to this conversation

1:17

and I was hoping you could kick

1:20

us off with a little bit more

1:22

about you , julie , and

1:24

also a bit about your adoption

1:26

story Wonderful .

1:28

So an interesting tidbit that makes

1:30

me a little different than most adoptees

1:32

is I'm an identical twin , and my

1:34

twin sister and I were adopted together

1:37

, which was the policy of Catholic

1:39

Charities back in the day to keep

1:41

multiple birth siblings

1:43

together . At 48

1:45

, I had a breast biopsy , and

1:48

that incident sent

1:50

me on this path to find out

1:52

what my medical history family background

1:54

, were all about . I'm from

1:56

a closed adoption , which means I

1:59

didn't have any information

2:01

about my birth parents who they were

2:04

, what their story was , why we

2:06

were placed for adoption and no

2:08

family medical history or background

2:10

. The closed adoption was an interesting

2:13

thing to tackle . Fortunately

2:15

for me , back in 2011

2:17

, the state laws

2:19

changed in Illinois , which is where

2:21

I was adopted , and we

2:24

gained access to our original birth

2:26

record . So that , unfortunately

2:28

, wasn't as helpful as I would have liked

2:30

. The original birth record . Back

2:32

in those days , birth moms

2:34

often used an alias , which was

2:37

perfectly legal , and the

2:39

birth moms didn't have to put

2:41

the birth father's name on

2:43

the birth certificate , so parental

2:45

rights were not anything

2:47

that birth fathers had to sign off on , and

2:50

so the story of twice a daughter was

2:52

finding our family

2:54

medical history , a process that took

2:56

, oh well , over five years . We

2:59

started off with our adoption

3:01

agency , a confidential

3:03

intermediary , I used a private

3:05

investigator at one point and

3:08

the confidential intermediary

3:10

and I and a genealogist really

3:12

broke the story about who my birth

3:15

father was and how to

3:17

find him . So that's the story in a nutshell

3:19

.

3:19

Well , it's fascinating and I

3:21

want to maybe take you a little bit

3:24

as a pioneer to the adoption

3:26

community in terms of your story

3:28

and your timing . I know that some of those

3:30

items that you just talked about were different

3:33

than some of the search that

3:35

we are capable of enacting

3:37

today based off of DNA . Thank you

3:39

for kind of paving some roads for

3:41

us . It's meant to me a term

3:43

of endearment to you , not anything

3:45

more . I think

3:47

it also allows for us to talk

3:50

a little bit about the concept

3:52

. I've heard you say right to know versus

3:54

right to privacy , and so give a

3:57

spin on that from your perspective

4:00

. What does it mean and how do you kind

4:02

of rationale that out in your mind

4:04

?

4:05

It really goes back down to the nutshell

4:07

that anybody who is not

4:09

adopted has all

4:11

their information from their family

4:14

accessible somehow through family

4:16

history , shared journals

4:19

, even the family Bible Doptees

4:21

. We don't have any information

4:24

about ourselves , and I

4:26

really believe that we have a right

4:28

to know the basic facts about

4:30

ourselves and that there should not be

4:33

gatekeepers that prevent us from

4:35

having access to that . Now

4:37

, on the flip side of that , birth parents

4:39

and adoptive parents too they're both

4:42

in the same camp , believe that they

4:44

have the right to their own privacy , that

4:46

they should be able to withhold information

4:49

that protects their identity

4:51

, their secrets . Shame is a big

4:53

part of this in respect to birth

4:56

parents . They often are led

4:58

to adoption because of

5:00

an unplanned pregnancy or

5:02

circumstances in their environment

5:05

or financial situation . The reason why

5:07

I lump adoptive parents in there too

5:09

, is adoptive parents don't want to

5:11

really co-parent with a birth parent

5:13

, and so that arm's length distance

5:16

that they put between themselves and

5:18

the birth parent is their right

5:20

to privacy , their right to manage

5:22

their family the way they want to . And

5:24

so you've got this battle of wills

5:27

between the adoptee , who's

5:29

wanting more access to information

5:31

, more access to all of

5:33

their relatives , and then you've

5:35

got the battle with the birth parents and

5:37

the adoptive parents . So this is the stage

5:40

that's being set in the United States

5:42

right now for adoptee rights

5:44

. Illinois was one of the first states

5:46

to allow access to original birth records

5:48

. There are , at this count

5:51

, about 15 to 16 states

5:53

that have changed their adoption

5:55

statutes , and that's

5:58

not very many when you think about it

6:00

. So if you're adopted in New York

6:02

, for example , you have access to your

6:04

original birth record . That just happened about

6:06

a year and a half ago . There are other states

6:08

where you know it's just dumb

6:10

luck , you cannot have access

6:12

. So fortunately , dna

6:15

analysis or genetic genealogy

6:17

has come so much

6:19

farther than it was , as you

6:21

pointed out earlier . In my case I

6:24

was matching with third , fourth

6:26

, fifth cousin , and I did without

6:28

any accurate names . I

6:30

didn't even know which side of the family I

6:33

lined up on . So those databases

6:35

are only as good as the subscribers

6:37

, who they sign up , who signs up to participate

6:40

, and I'm just now , okay

6:43

, so almost 14 years into

6:45

reunion with my birth family matching

6:48

with first cousins . There was a reluctancy

6:51

, I guess , that people sharing their

6:53

DNA , and so

6:55

my right to know was limited

6:57

by not only the adoption

6:59

statutes in Illinois , but also by

7:01

genetic genealogy and where it was in the

7:04

growth pattern .

7:04

I still , to this day , find that just

7:07

crazy , for as far as we've come

7:09

as a society and an

7:11

organization of people , it just

7:13

never fails to boggle

7:15

my mind that we are still

7:18

in that mentality of division

7:20

associated with a human's right

7:22

to know and someone else's right

7:25

to privacy , but , more importantly

7:27

, those that have made decisions on

7:29

behalf of an infant , I don't know if

7:31

I would say with lack of regard , but

7:34

maybe lack of long term

7:36

understanding .

7:37

Yes , yeah , and I think therein lies the

7:39

conversation with adoptees

7:41

like me writing our stories . There's

7:43

numerous new books out about

7:46

adoptees and anybody

7:48

in the adoption constellation sharing

7:50

their stories and their struggles to

7:52

make connection and share information

7:55

, and that conversation is so important

7:57

because that's what's going to facilitate change

8:00

across the country and when

8:02

it comes to adoptees rights .

8:04

Well , you spoke about your first book

8:06

, twice a Daughter A Search for

8:08

Identity , family and Belonging , and

8:10

in the introduction we mentioned you've recently

8:12

launched another book Belonging

8:15

Matters Conversations on Adoption

8:17

, family and Kinship . Thank you so

8:19

much for giving me the opportunity to read

8:21

. I've also listened to it . So for our

8:23

audience , Julie provides

8:25

not only an electronic version

8:28

through all your outlets but also an audio

8:30

version , and I enjoyed both

8:33

of those . I want to have us

8:35

go to your book , your

8:37

most recent one that launched , and talk

8:39

about the style . I loved it . It was

8:41

unique . If you would not mind

8:44

giving us context about

8:46

you as an author , why you decided

8:48

to become an author and then the

8:50

style of this book .

8:52

When I was telling friends and family

8:54

about this crazy adoption search

8:56

that I undertook the rejection

8:59

of my birth mom , her changing

9:01

her mind , needing a judge to

9:03

get involved to access

9:05

medical history , the twists and

9:07

turns of finding birth

9:09

relatives and then discovering a

9:12

brother and a sister I didn't know I had

9:14

, and a very

9:16

strange but heartwarming synchronicity

9:19

with my half-brother . I was telling that

9:21

story to people , and they were

9:24

you've got to write this down , and

9:26

I thought you know what I'm about

9:28

to be an empty nuster . I

9:30

could write this story , so I started

9:32

taking memoir writing classes with

9:35

several different colleges and universities

9:38

and started writing the story

9:40

about the same time that the story

9:42

was unfolding . Then I

9:44

embarked on hiring an editor

9:47

and got the story to

9:49

the point where it was ready

9:51

to be released . What happened afterwards

9:54

, though , is what led to this

9:56

new book Belonging Matters . I

9:59

started blogging regularly

10:01

, publishing essays and periodicals

10:03

, and all of those topics

10:06

were related to identity and

10:08

belonging and family , because

10:11

my family was changing . At the time

10:13

, I had these new birth relatives

10:15

that I was incorporating . My brother

10:17

had a relationship

10:19

with the family that I grew

10:21

up with , so that brought in the

10:23

idea of what I thought my family was

10:26

all about my brother's

10:28

mother , who I'm not related

10:30

to , calls my sister and I her

10:32

stepdaughters , and so the

10:34

lines were blurring about family

10:37

and kinship and I thought , you know

10:39

my readers really need an update

10:41

. Twice , a daughter came out in 2021

10:44

. So the essays in this new

10:46

book are about things that happened

10:49

that didn't go in the book , or

10:52

things that happened after the book went

10:54

to the publisher , and stories

10:56

about my own family . I share

10:58

a lot about my husband and

11:01

my kids , the funny things

11:03

that they do . Each of these

11:05

pieces is meant to be a standalone

11:08

piece . So , while there's some overlap

11:11

sometimes in things that are mentioned

11:13

, they're meant to be standalone pieces

11:15

but not a continuous story

11:17

. So I delve into topics , the

11:20

difficult conversations that I've had

11:22

with my birth mom , with my

11:24

adoptive mom . There's an essay

11:26

about not meeting my birth

11:28

father , and there's also an essay

11:31

about what gift my birth father

11:33

did give me , which is something we can talk

11:35

about later if you'd like . But one

11:37

of my favorite essays that you and

11:39

I have touched on is this

11:41

essay called Birth Mothers Should

11:44

Come With Warning Labels . I

11:46

did not have a good understanding

11:49

of the journey that a birth mother

11:51

goes through . If you will . The social

11:54

worker coached me when I was making

11:56

contact with her . She said you got

11:58

to be patient with her . She's you

12:01

are entering her life midstream

12:04

. She doesn't know you're coming and she's

12:07

going to be operating out of fear

12:09

and shock . It's like walking into

12:11

a movie when it's half over . You know

12:13

there's a lot you have to learn . That

12:16

was a warning label . While I did

12:18

hear what the social worker was telling me

12:20

, it also was difficult

12:22

to assimilate that rejection

12:25

that I got first off . She was operating

12:27

out of fear and shame . She

12:29

had not told the husband that

12:31

she had been married to for over

12:33

30 years that she had two

12:36

daughters and placed them both for

12:38

adoption . So she had a lot

12:41

of ground to make up . I

12:43

wish I would have understood that

12:45

better . I did get

12:47

a lot of insight from . Catholic

12:50

Charities has a post adoption department

12:52

in Chicago and they have a regular

12:54

support group that has

12:57

adoptive parents , birth

12:59

parents and adoptees included , going

13:01

to those sessions and hearing

13:03

birth mothers share their story

13:06

on why they had to place their

13:08

child for adoption and the

13:10

loss that they felt about it , the

13:12

shame surrounding that act

13:15

and also the heartache on

13:17

trying to make connection with their lost

13:19

daughter or son . That allowed

13:22

me to get a better

13:24

understanding of my birth mother's reactions

13:26

. She's a tough cookie she

13:28

still struggles with because

13:31

they're there . I'm claiming

13:33

loudly that she was a birth mother

13:35

and had an unwed pregnancy is

13:37

not something that she's

13:40

gonna easily do and I am

13:42

aware of that , but

13:44

it's still hurtful because

13:46

I want her to welcome me with open arms

13:48

and she has a lot of obstacles

13:51

to doing that . So that was the

13:53

meat of the topic . Birth

13:55

mothers should come with warning labels

13:57

.

13:58

I liked that particular essay

14:01

for all of those reasons

14:03

and then some One of the things

14:05

from my own journey that I struggled

14:07

with that will tap into . Another

14:10

portion of the topic I know we wanna talk

14:12

about is my identity . You learn

14:14

things that may

14:17

set you on a different path

14:19

of who you are and that is hard

14:21

to prepare for . I'm

14:23

not really convinced yet that

14:26

any book or any support

14:28

group or any podcast

14:30

is truly going to give

14:33

you every tool you need to

14:36

manage through that . There are fantastic

14:38

tools , but just that portion

14:41

of the conversation , julie , where we're

14:43

trying to find who we are

14:45

, a little bit more of our background . But

14:48

also I did not take

14:50

into account what

14:52

I might learn could impact

14:55

who I believe myself to be . Yeah

14:58

, yeah , so key , so key . Well

15:00

, I hear the compassion in your voice

15:02

for birth mothers . We do share that . I

15:05

gained an immense amount of compassion

15:08

when I met Candace

15:10

Cahill and read her book as

15:12

well , and so if you

15:14

have not had a chance to read that one , it

15:16

is so good . It reminds me

15:18

a lot of also how you're approaching

15:21

things . Hers is called Goodbye . Again

15:23

, it was probably the book I've

15:25

said this before it was the book

15:27

I needed to read to gain my compassion

15:29

that I hear in your voice and I see

15:32

in your book that we're talking

15:34

about today in that particular essay , and

15:36

so you know , just kudos to

15:38

our ability to also grow

15:41

ourselves and our community

15:43

to have a little bit of compassion

15:45

. Now , that doesn't take away from man

15:47

it really stinks to

15:50

be rejected Right

15:53

. You're just wounded already

15:55

and then you're wounded again , and

15:57

I think that is . It's hard to

15:59

grapple with that , no matter who you

16:01

are , no matter how you prepare .

16:03

Or how old you are , and I think that that's

16:05

part of this conversation

16:08

is . I was a middle-aged woman

16:10

going through this search . I had

16:12

a strong family

16:14

values background in the family . I

16:16

grew up in a wonderful marriage

16:19

for strong kids , where there wasn't

16:21

anything catastrophic going

16:23

on in my life when I started on this path

16:25

and I think those that

16:27

support and stability

16:29

was a key part of

16:32

helping me go through this path

16:34

of rejection , secondary

16:36

rejection and then over again

16:38

when I tried to find my birth father . So

16:41

going back to what you were talking about , the identity

16:43

, finding things out about yourself

16:45

that I'm still grappling with

16:47

. So my birth father , I

16:49

found out , was one quarter Chippewa

16:52

Indian and this astounded

16:55

me . I'm still struggling with thinking

16:58

of myself as being Native

17:00

American , not because I have

17:02

any kind of prejudice , just it's

17:04

not something I grow up thinking

17:06

about myself . Nobody gave me a

17:08

clue that that was something

17:11

in my background . I was told I was Irish

17:13

and German , which I am , but I

17:15

think they told everybody back then because

17:17

kids that had that family background

17:20

were easier to place . There wasn't

17:22

anything objectionable in their background

17:24

but the Native American piece

17:27

. And going back to the original birth

17:29

record , because my birth father's name

17:31

is not on my original

17:33

birth record . I cannot claim

17:35

any connection to

17:38

the Chippewa Indian organization

17:41

. I'm not considered part of the tribe

17:43

and I can't , unless the laws

17:45

change and DNA analysis

17:47

allows us to , to claim

17:49

what is our rightful heritage . So

17:51

that piece of knowledge

17:53

was another slam . I thought this

17:55

is just something . It just keeps

17:58

on going . I have

18:00

the piece of paper that says I belong

18:02

, but I don't belong because

18:05

there's something missing and I think

18:07

all adoptees that are on this path

18:09

they discover things like

18:11

that every day . Piece

18:13

of information that prevents

18:16

them from really belonging

18:18

. One other thing that happened that

18:20

I talk about quite a bit is I

18:23

was told my sister and I were

18:25

told that we were fraternal twins

18:27

. So I don't know where the misinformation

18:29

happened , if somebody

18:31

at the hospital on the day we were born

18:34

checked the wrong box , somebody not

18:36

care or where the misinformation

18:39

happened . But when DNA analysis

18:41

was strong enough , we did testing

18:43

and we're identical twins . Now

18:46

you look at the cover of my book and there'd

18:48

be no doubt in your mind that my sister

18:50

and I are identical , but the facts

18:52

were that my folks had been told

18:54

that we were fraternal . It's not

18:56

that big of a deal . I mean , I'm

18:59

a twin , I have my sister in

19:01

my life , but for an adoptee

19:03

it's just one more little detail

19:06

that somebody got wrong

19:08

and it just feels

19:11

like such a travesty

19:13

that for 50

19:15

years I was latching

19:18

onto something that was incorrect

19:20

information .

19:22

Well , it's very key to not

19:24

only belonging but identity

19:26

, and I have spent an entire

19:28

calendar year now truly in

19:31

deep study on identity

19:33

. I had my own kind

19:35

of moment and it

19:37

was earth shattering for

19:39

me and how I saw myself

19:42

and my worth , and it pulled

19:44

me from the top of

19:46

a mountain and I call it the abyss

19:49

. I mean I went really deep

19:51

. I spent probably a good

19:53

two years just trying

19:55

to figure out who I am in

19:58

the context of identity , and

20:00

so I also resonated with

20:02

the essay . I Feel Like

20:05

a Fake where you touch up on

20:07

imposter syndrome and so

20:09

. I know when we were talking previously

20:12

, we both landed on a term

20:14

that I loved coming from you whole

20:16

identity . Would you mind giving me a little

20:19

bit of context around that ? The essay

20:21

started for me .

20:22

When I was a teenager , my

20:24

family was very Irish

20:27

. They were deeply involved in the

20:29

Irish community and traditions

20:31

in Chicago . We attended festivals

20:34

. The St Patrick's Day Parade

20:36

in downtown Chicago is a big deal . It's

20:38

like New York . They dye the river

20:41

green and there's a lot of hoopla

20:43

around that . My folks entered

20:45

my sister and I in the St Patrick's Day

20:47

Queen contest and

20:50

I was fortunate to be on

20:52

the court and ride in the parade atop

20:54

a convertible . While that was so fun

20:57

, as a teenage girl I was so

20:59

thrilled to have that opportunity

21:01

inside I thought to myself

21:04

I wonder if I even deserve to

21:06

be here . What if I'm

21:08

not Irish at all ? I've

21:10

taken a spot away from

21:12

a little ass that deserved to

21:14

be here . And that doubt about

21:17

my ethnicity really

21:19

percolated for a long time

21:21

and you can imagine when

21:24

I did do DNA analysis and found

21:26

I was like half Scotch and

21:28

Irish , I was absolutely

21:31

relieved who I thought

21:33

I belonged to and where I , where

21:35

I landed , turned out to be true

21:38

and it was a relief . But that

21:40

feeling , a feeling

21:42

of fake , is troubling and I

21:44

think it eats at you . It eats at your

21:46

confidence , it eats at your belonging

21:48

. I was only half in . You know if

21:51

I really Irish am I am I not , I

21:53

was only half in , and now I think that

21:55

I really can champion the

21:57

fact that I am Irish

21:59

and that is my traditions and my

22:01

ethnicity , and my

22:03

kids have latched on to that too .

22:05

I like that for myself . I

22:08

talk about the triangle

22:10

a little bit differently and it is

22:12

around the concept of your identity

22:15

and your self-worth . So there is

22:17

, you know , a really difficult

22:19

component of the conversation that says

22:21

I'm relinquished , I'm chosen

22:23

, and your self-worth ? Which tags

22:26

to your identity ? Self-worth

22:28

for me and identity are so intertwined

22:31

. I talk about it in the context

22:33

of pre-search and reunion

22:35

, because search has a large

22:37

component of that . I was truly

22:40

a person that I

22:42

feel in hindsight was on top of

22:44

the mountain . I see it differently now

22:46

, of course , but , you know , very successful

22:49

by my definition , both

22:51

personally and professionally . I

22:54

loved my life in the context

22:56

of what I was living , and I

22:58

never doubted who I

23:00

was as that person

23:02

. And I met my birth mother and I

23:05

learned something and

23:07

it set the course for

23:09

, wow , I must have been an

23:11

absolute imposter

23:14

and didn't even know it , and what I

23:16

thought about post . One of

23:18

our conversations , julie , was the topic

23:20

you talked about , where we're assimilating

23:23

into our families and part

23:25

of our identity is that we

23:27

are not just this adoptee , but

23:30

we are part of this family and your belonging

23:32

. That is an identity . We're

23:34

part of the people that created

23:36

us and that is part of our identity

23:39

, and then we are the people that we've become

23:41

through life experience . I don't think

23:44

that they're mutually exclusive

23:46

, even though we may struggle with that

23:48

in some some capacity .

23:50

Yeah , I think that you are right on

23:52

with that . It's interesting to me

23:54

to be able to join my

23:56

brother and sister , my half-brother

23:59

and sister , and fold them

24:01

into the family in which

24:03

I was raised and we

24:05

have this commonality , which has

24:08

a lot to do with my sister law

24:10

. But the ability to do that

24:12

was not something I ever

24:14

thought was going to happen . My adoptive

24:16

mom although my parents were

24:19

always professing to be supportive

24:21

of a search someday

24:23

the fact that it didn't happen until

24:25

I was 50 . I think my parents had

24:28

basically said we're

24:30

all good , you know , the kids are

24:32

happy with who they are and they don't

24:34

need to delve into this . But then I

24:36

had this breast biopsy and got pushed

24:38

into the search , and that brought

24:41

out an interesting situation with

24:43

my adoptive mom . She was

24:45

not in support of

24:47

that search . Our relationship

24:49

struggled . It never struggled before

24:52

that . It struggled because

24:54

I didn't have the support I thought

24:56

I needed and I was looking at

24:58

her through a different lens . She

25:01

I had a sibling that passed away suddenly

25:03

when I was a teenager and while

25:05

the intellectual side of my brain

25:07

was saying , well , she's afraid she's going to lose

25:10

me too . I intellectualized

25:12

that , but my feelings were still hurt

25:14

that she was not supporting

25:16

me , and something that I needed to do for

25:19

health reasons , but also for

25:22

my kids . They needed to know what they were

25:24

dealing with longer term , and

25:26

that relationship with her went

25:29

through a big change . There was

25:31

a rift . I was not sharing anything

25:33

with her . A good piece of my identity

25:35

and belonging kind of went right

25:38

out the window . Here's this family

25:40

that I really identified

25:42

with and they weren't supporting me

25:44

. So it wasn't just

25:46

finding out I'm Native American

25:49

, it was finding out

25:51

things about my own parents

25:53

. My father always supported the search and

25:55

I think he was a good barometer

25:57

as to helping my mom with her doubts

25:59

. You know , identity and belonging

26:02

are always changing . They are

26:04

like the key factors

26:06

in our lives . It starts with that

26:08

lunch table . You know that you don't

26:11

fit in as a

26:13

middle schooler or a high schooler . It starts

26:15

there when do I belong ? Throw an

26:17

adoptee in the middle of that we're already struggling

26:20

with where do we fit in ? And our family

26:22

? Where do we fit in with society ? I

26:24

never liked the conversation when

26:26

people would find out I was adopted . They

26:28

were too curious and they would ask questions

26:30

that I didn't welcome . So

26:33

now it's an interesting thing

26:35

, I lost my husband about a

26:37

year and a half ago and fortunately

26:39

I was in a good place with

26:42

my adoption search and reunion and he

26:44

really was the instigator . And I'm finding

26:47

that , you know , I'm going through this whole belonging

26:49

piece and identity

26:51

again . It just doesn't

26:54

stop . I'm not a wife anymore

26:56

, but I'm still a mother , I'm

26:58

a grandmother and now I'm an author

27:01

and I think we're doing this constantly

27:04

through our existence . We're figuring

27:06

out who we are and

27:08

it's changing always . We're

27:11

figuring out where we belong . You

27:13

know , now I belong to some

27:16

of my in-laws' families . I

27:18

just wrote a blog piece about this being

27:20

the the odd guest at

27:22

Thanksgiving . All my other kids

27:24

were with their in-laws and

27:26

significant others and I found myself

27:29

in New Jersey with my daughter's family

27:31

and my son-in-laws , parents

27:33

and aunts and uncles , and because my

27:35

daughter was on call she's an OB

27:38

she wasn't even there at Thanksgiving

27:40

. But I felt like I belonged

27:42

to those people and so belonging

27:45

is not just who you are biologically

27:48

related to . It's related to

27:50

who you feel comfortable with , where

27:52

you feel comfortable , and I think that's

27:54

just always changing and I think , rather

27:57

than be angry you know , I'm

27:59

not angry about my adoption anymore

28:01

. There's an acceptance about

28:04

my situation . Stuff happens

28:06

to us that we have no control over

28:08

, and if we can learn

28:10

to accept it and maybe

28:12

forgive the bad actors , the

28:14

bad players , we have a better

28:16

chance of being a self-content

28:19

person . I am not an angry

28:22

adoptee and I feel bad

28:24

for the adoptees that are

28:26

, because it doesn't allow them

28:28

to move on and lead a productive

28:30

life . Identity and belonging are a conversation

28:33

that we're always going to have . I look at my own

28:35

mom , who's 91

28:37

and she's a widow and she's

28:39

in a senior community and

28:42

she's still making friends and she's

28:44

still figuring out . You know where she

28:46

belongs , and life is always changing

28:48

and we have to change with it .

28:50

Well , two things First of all , our

28:52

condolences for your loss and

28:55

second , what a powerful

28:57

example of lived experience

28:59

on this journey . I do appreciate

29:02

the perspective that says

29:04

before we get and I'm going to paraphrase

29:07

before we get too hung up on who we are

29:09

and all of the implications of adoption

29:11

, let us also sit in

29:13

a space where we remember what

29:16

it's like to be a teenager and

29:18

then newly married and

29:20

, in your instance , a widow , grown

29:22

children . I love

29:24

your forward thinking

29:27

mentality of embracing

29:29

evolution of ourselves as

29:31

part of this . That allows us

29:33

to acknowledge and

29:36

find places to heal . I

29:38

think you just gave our listeners a great

29:41

perspective on an

29:43

approach to just kind of moving forward . If

29:45

you sit in that and think about it for a couple minutes

29:47

, what a great gift , thank you Well .

29:49

I hope that you know , by talking

29:52

about adoption and where it fits into

29:54

who we are , as well as all

29:57

the other conversations that adoptees

29:59

and birth parents are having , that

30:01

those people that are outside

30:04

of our little world , are touched by

30:06

adoption world , have a greater understanding

30:09

of the things that we have to grapple

30:11

with . We're grappling with life as they

30:13

know it . Certainly other people have these same

30:16

struggles of being a widow

30:18

or a troubled teen or an older

30:20

person in a senior community , but

30:23

we have that added factor in there

30:25

of trying to find out who we are

30:27

and where we came from

30:29

. Oh my goodness , and assimilating

30:32

that . I had a conversation

30:34

right after I was working

30:36

on Twice the Daughter , with a friend person

30:38

that I respected at the

30:40

time , and the intimation

30:43

from her in the conversation was

30:45

that I was being a disloyal

30:47

adoptee . By researching

30:49

my family history , I was being disloyal

30:52

to my adoptive parents . That

30:54

there should have been , as she said , aren't

30:57

you grateful for the life you had

30:59

and this is a constant

31:01

theme that I love to talk

31:03

about , because it's something we need

31:05

to dispel in the community

31:08

that we are not

31:10

being disloyal to our parents

31:12

that raised us by

31:14

this search for self . If

31:17

we don't go down that path and

31:19

it's a path that we want to be on

31:21

we're being disloyal to ourselves

31:24

. So I'm not saying everybody

31:26

needs to search for their family

31:29

history . Certainly that's not a

31:31

choice that's right for everybody . But

31:33

those of us that do go down

31:35

that path , we're choosing

31:37

to do that for a good

31:39

reason , and the

31:41

outsiders looking in that

31:43

aren't touched by adoption should really

31:45

be sitting back and listening and

31:48

taking note and saying , hmm , what

31:50

do I not know about this situation

31:52

? Am I willing to listen to

31:54

this perspective and

31:57

consider it , instead of imposing

31:59

my own judgment into this

32:02

situation , because that

32:04

was a hurtful conversation to me

32:06

? I do feel loyal to my adoptive

32:08

parents . I still take care of them . They're

32:11

in my life , I have not disregarded

32:13

them , and so the intimation

32:16

that I was being disloyal really

32:19

angered me . And

32:21

anyone that's listening to

32:23

your show that's in

32:25

the triangle gets what I'm saying . But

32:28

those outside of it , they need

32:30

to operate with caution , maybe

32:32

with their own set of care instructions

32:34

.

32:35

I'm almost speechless . I don't know

32:37

if I've been that way many times on

32:39

the show , but I am definitely almost

32:41

speechless as you were talking

32:43

. One of the things that kept running through

32:45

my mind was having

32:47

the space to understand

32:50

. We are not working towards disloyalty

32:53

or out of malice , but

32:55

we are also working towards authenticating

32:57

ourselves and there

32:59

is just no easy way

33:01

to consistently share that

33:04

for someone who is not

33:06

in this particular seat in

33:08

this community To truly

33:10

, I think , get it . I

33:12

believe surface level there's a lot

33:15

of compassion , but I don't

33:17

know if we are ever going to

33:19

get , on the whole , a

33:22

true like I get you . I think

33:24

we'll hear more I hear you's than

33:26

I get you's , if that makes any sense

33:28

to you .

33:29

Yes , and I think a good part

33:31

of this work of I get you

33:33

. We need to be grateful for the next

33:36

generation and I think that the conversation

33:38

that we're having today falls into that

33:41

is that society is

33:43

getting better . There is not this

33:45

shame around an unwed pregnancy

33:47

. Certainly , a lot of gay

33:50

couples have adopted

33:52

children . That's not

33:54

a stigma to parenting

33:57

and single

33:59

women are parents . So

34:01

I think we're making progress

34:03

, but it takes time

34:05

and it takes a lot of people

34:07

raising their voices and

34:09

being the loudest person in the room

34:11

to get people to

34:13

consider . There's a different way of looking

34:16

at a topic . Adoption is always going

34:18

to be relevant when

34:20

you think about it . There's six to eight million

34:22

adoptees in this country . You

34:24

multiply that by their two such a parents

34:27

and siblings and friends

34:29

, and it's a topic

34:32

everybody is aware of . It's

34:34

universal , so it's not going to go away

34:36

, and our understanding of it and the

34:39

language we use around it the

34:41

positive adoption language is

34:43

always changing too , and I

34:45

hope that we continue

34:47

to work towards more understanding

34:50

around the issues .

34:51

Yeah , and I want to clarify . I don't

34:53

believe that you're indicating

34:55

positive adoption language

34:58

under the context of everything's

35:00

fantastic , wonderful . We reference it

35:02

sometimes as unicorns and rainbows . That

35:04

is not at all , julie , I know what you

35:07

meant . Do you mind taking just a couple

35:09

of minutes to clarify that for

35:11

our listeners ?

35:12

Absolutely so . In my era

35:14

, 1959 , when I was adopted

35:16

and I still slip

35:19

this out in public , which you're

35:21

not supposed to say is I was

35:23

given up for adoption , so

35:26

that's my language around my adoption

35:28

. When open adoption

35:30

became in the forefront in 1982

35:33

on , the language changed

35:36

. The proper terminology today

35:38

is placed for adoption

35:40

. It sanitizes , in

35:42

my mind , the situation yes

35:45

, you're placed for adoption , but

35:48

most adoptees something

35:50

got given up in the process of being

35:53

adopted . I still think I was given

35:55

up . I gave up an identity . I gave up

35:57

this belonging to my birth

35:59

mother , all of that so positive . Adoption

36:02

language is a term in the adoption

36:04

community that has placed

36:06

kinder words around

36:08

certain labels like birth

36:10

mother . First , mother is

36:13

a label that's kind of gaining

36:15

recognition and it's maybe the right

36:17

way to talk about it . The one that really

36:20

gets me going is real

36:22

mother . I can remember conversations

36:24

as a kid when somebody would say well

36:27

, do you know anything about your real mother ? Oh

36:29

, wow , I mean that stung

36:32

like a slap on the face . I think

36:34

both of them are real . Honestly

36:36

, my adoptive parents were the parents

36:38

in the trenches giving me a life

36:41

, teaching me values , what

36:43

was right and wrong . They're very real

36:45

to me and my birth mom . She's

36:48

still very real to me too , because she's in

36:50

my life . Which one is the real

36:52

set of parents ? Why

36:55

are we forced to make that label

36:57

and have it stick ? So there

36:59

are other examples . Natural

37:01

mother is another label associated

37:03

with your birth parents . Slash

37:06

first parents .

37:07

As you were talking , julie , things that

37:09

were running through my mind along this

37:11

topic , maybe some grace on

37:14

what words we use and why

37:16

there is a connection to our

37:18

age , our era and the circumstances

37:21

. Just like you , I really don't

37:24

believe I was placed for adoption

37:26

, I was relinquished . I feel

37:28

more comfortable using the term relinquished

37:30

and I do believe

37:33

that my identity

37:35

is connected to that

37:37

event and it wasn't a one and

37:39

done , and so therefore , if

37:42

I want to use relinquished

37:44

because it works for me , I

37:46

want the grace to be able

37:48

to do so . Therefore , in the dialogue

37:51

that you just kind of explained

37:53

, positive narrative

37:55

to us , the concept of a

37:57

real parent or a

37:59

first parent or a

38:02

birth parent , I think there's

38:04

room for all of that

38:06

language to exist

38:08

and to honor where

38:10

each adoptee sits

38:13

. Try not to get too hung up

38:15

on it . You know what I mean .

38:16

Yes , I do . Yeah , I mean

38:18

it's hard , for me at least , to

38:20

call my brother

38:22

a half-brother and a half-sister

38:25

. To me they are a brother

38:27

and a sister and for a

38:29

long time I was calling him my new brother

38:31

and he took objection

38:34

to that . He goes I was always your brother

38:36

, we just have a new relationship

38:38

. So I mean , he felt it too on his

38:40

end and so I stopped calling him my

38:43

new brother . He is just my brother

38:45

and so I think , like you said

38:47

, the labels are always changing based on

38:49

how we feel about our

38:52

situation .

38:53

I 100% agree . As we're

38:55

getting ready to close out for today

38:57

, I want to ask

39:00

is there something in particular that

39:02

we haven't covered yet , that you would

39:04

like to leave with our listeners

39:06

?

39:06

Oh , you know , I think what I want

39:08

to say is that just never

39:11

give up . There were points

39:13

in my search where I , you

39:15

know , I didn't know I was going to be able to move forward

39:18

and there was always a workaround

39:20

. It took a while sometimes to find that

39:22

workaround and while it took

39:25

longer than I thought and longer than I

39:27

wanted , I didn't give up . And

39:29

I would tell the listeners it

39:32

may look like you're not going to have a relationship

39:35

with a birth relative or

39:37

a parent . Don't give up on

39:39

that . Keep fighting along in each

39:41

little step . We'll get you

39:44

right to where you need to be . I

39:46

have a wonderful counselor

39:49

in my life that I love this saying

39:51

and I want to pass it on to the listeners

39:53

. She says that which is right

39:56

is unfolding , and why

39:58

I love that saying is because

40:00

we have to give ourselves time . We

40:02

have to give our lives time to unfold

40:05

. I like it because it doesn't

40:07

say things are predestined or

40:09

things happen for a reason . I hate

40:11

that , a whole idea . But this unfolding

40:14

of life and that which is right for

40:16

us is unfolding is such

40:18

a powerful message that I want

40:20

to leave with the listeners .

40:22

A great place to leave us . I want

40:24

to thank you for that and that

40:26

is so encouraging . Thank you so much

40:28

for spending time with us today . It

40:30

has been a joy to have you on the show and

40:33

please know it is always my honor

40:35

to bring people to the show that

40:37

want to tell their story and

40:39

their lived experience . I do not take that

40:41

lightly , so thank you so much .

40:43

Thank you for your hard work in putting this together

40:45

. It's a pleasure .

40:47

Thank you for listening to today's episode

40:49

of Wandering Tree Podcast . Please rate

40:51

, review and share this out so we can experience

40:53

the lived adoptee journey together

40:55

. Want to be a guest on our show ?

40:57

Check us out at wanderingtreeadopteecom

41:00

you

43:16

, you

43:46

, you

44:16

, you

44:46

, you

45:13

Music

45:39

.