0:06

Lisa and I were so thankful in

0:09

that my siblings were

0:11

telling stories about my dad , stories

0:14

that I was missing , and

0:18

it was just such a double-edged sword

0:20

. I got to hear these wonderful stories

0:22

, but I was absent

0:24

from them .

0:37

Welcome to Wandering Tree Podcast . I

0:39

am your host , lisa Ann . We

0:41

are an experienced-based show focused

0:44

on sharing the journey of adoption , identity

0:46

, life search and reunion

0:48

. Let's begin today's conversation

0:51

with our guest of honor , monica

0:53

Hall . Monica comes to us

0:55

from the great state of California

0:58

today . Welcome to the show .

1:01

Thank you , Lisa Ann .

1:04

Well , we're excited to have you on board today

1:06

, and I was wondering if you could kick us off

1:08

with a little bit about yourself

1:10

.

1:12

Well , I am an adoptee first

1:14

and then I'm a birth parent . So

1:17

a dual threat

1:19

or a very confused

1:21

human identity

1:24

issues and grief and joy

1:27

and just a whole mix of everything

1:30

. Yes , I am .

1:32

That's a lot to put into a sentence and

1:35

I appreciate that you've kicked us

1:37

off with . I am an adoptee

1:39

and a birth parent and

1:41

we know that combination is

1:44

not new for people in

1:46

our community . It just may not

1:48

be as frequently spoken

1:50

about , and so thank you for coming

1:53

on our show and taking the time to

1:55

talk about you and who you are

1:57

. When we first connected

2:00

, simon Ben of

2:02

Thriving Adoptee Podcast suggested

2:05

we should connect up , but don't

2:07

know if he actually understood

2:10

that we would spend hours

2:12

talking to each other , including

2:15

just our preparatory call where

2:17

we were conversing on our

2:19

first meeting for three hours , and

2:22

then today , in preparation for this

2:25

session , and we've already been chatting

2:27

it up for almost an hour . I just

2:29

now looked and I'm like , oh wow

2:31

, that was an hour . It's been an hour , so

2:34

an hour . So I'm looking forward to this conversation

2:37

on behalf of

2:39

the listeners as well and

2:41

, if you wouldn't mind , kind of

2:43

dive into a little

2:45

bit about what you have

2:47

been doing in your life and

2:50

what is an upcoming item and we'll touch on

2:52

it at the end too . But you have an event

2:55

coming up in March which is

2:57

also key to this story

2:59

and who you are .

3:03

I certainly do . So I

3:05

believe this airs March 20th , so

3:07

tomorrow my memoir

3:10

will be hitting , it will

3:12

be launching , and I began

3:15

working on it over the eight

3:17

years in March . So

3:19

I don't

3:21

think I ever in a million years thought

3:23

I'd write a memoir , especially when I

3:25

was young . I could barely pay attention

3:27

in class . I was a horrible

3:30

student . I never showed up , I

3:32

cut , I cheated , I

3:34

was just , I was a mess and

3:37

I could have paid attention . I had a real low

3:39

self-worth and self-esteem and

3:42

I think probably I had some ADD

3:44

, maybe definitely some learning

3:46

disabilities , and I

3:49

was just terrified of

3:51

being a disappointment . So

3:53

I think my frontal lobe would shut

3:55

down when I try something because I was so

3:57

afraid that I would be

4:00

be disappointed

4:02

. My disappoint my parents was basically

4:04

what it was when I was little . So

4:07

I my daughter asked me to write a memoir

4:10

about eight years ago and

4:12

I had been carrying around

4:14

boxes of appointment books and

4:16

calendars for

4:18

you know , journals . My

4:21

mother had even given me her journals for

4:24

years you know 40 , over 40

4:26

years and when

4:28

she asked me , I mean there was something

4:31

deep inside me that thought , yeah

4:34

, that's what I need to do and

4:36

you know it was perfect timing my kids were out of the

4:38

house , I had more

4:40

time and there

4:42

wasn't a lot . I didn't , you know

4:45

, didn't have a business

4:47

to run at the time . I've employed that

4:49

wasn't , like you know . I

4:51

had some time to deal with it and

4:54

I had no idea where it was

4:56

going to take me . I had no idea the

4:58

whole I would go down . I had no

5:01

. I almost stopped so many times writing

5:04

and generally

5:06

people don't write . It looks like that's

5:08

something that happened . That

5:10

was something that needed to be dealt

5:12

with . You know we don't necessarily

5:14

write about good news often

5:17

. You know , usually some some

5:19

pain behind it and most of

5:21

the reason I wanted to write wasn't

5:23

because I had such an interesting adoption

5:25

story , although that's what my daughter wanted . I

5:28

wanted to write the figure stuff out , like

5:30

I . I had been in reunion

5:33

many years , both sides , but

5:35

I had so many questions

5:38

, I had so many . You

5:42

know it was complex relationship

5:44

with my adoptive mom , my mom I call her

5:46

mom , definitely complex relationship

5:49

with my family , my adoptive family

5:51

, and confusion

5:53

and I , you know I how I

5:55

dealt with things is I always just pushed them

5:57

down . I pushed them down

5:59

, I didn't look at them

6:01

, I didn't analyze them , I

6:04

didn't try to figure out why

6:06

something felt a certain way . I

6:08

just moved on Like

6:10

just let's just go and

6:13

. And so there was so much to online , because

6:15

I never felt I

6:17

would just push it down and cover

6:20

it up with something , a new event or

6:22

a new thing . And so

6:25

I went down the rabbit hole for

6:27

, especially the first couple of years , really

6:30

, really dark . But I'm out

6:32

of the rabbit hole and now I get to talk about

6:34

it and regurgitate it on my capacity

6:37

in book clubs .

6:38

Yeah , so here , so here you go again

6:41

and you get to relive it and

6:43

talk about it , but maybe from a more

6:45

center , grounded , healthier

6:48

position , having , you know , taken

6:50

the time to write it all out for yourself

6:52

. It's interesting

6:54

. When we were talking in

6:56

previous conversation , one

6:59

of the things that we both landed

7:01

on is how much we have in common and

7:03

we didn't even know each other , and

7:06

that has a theme many

7:08

times over with guests and

7:10

others in the adoptee community

7:12

, and I've always find it

7:14

very grounding to

7:16

have those types of connections

7:19

and to be able to have

7:21

this level of comfort in

7:23

the conversation and we had that going on

7:25

. If you wouldn't mind for

7:27

the listeners , can you talk a little

7:29

bit about being an adoptee and

7:32

how you handled that throughout

7:35

? You know your maturation

7:37

of a human .

7:38

I was adopted in 1957

7:40

. Okay , so that was

7:42

a long time ago . I

7:45

was four months old and

7:47

I grew up in Anchorage , alaska , with

7:50

what I thought were wonderful parents

7:52

, but I did not

7:55

have anything to compare it to . So

7:58

I love my mom

8:00

so much , but there

8:03

I never felt like

8:05

I was enough with my mother and

8:08

I never analyzed

8:10

that it could be because I was

8:12

adopted . I mean , that never

8:14

entered my mind , other than

8:16

that it was a problem . Because I

8:19

was told that I was special , that

8:22

I was , that I was a

8:24

gift , that I was a gift from

8:26

God , that they had prayed for a little

8:28

girl and God had given

8:30

them a little girl , and that my other

8:32

mother loved me so much that she

8:35

wanted me to have a mommy and

8:37

a daddy and that she was

8:39

selfless . So I had this

8:41

narrative in my head of being

8:43

special . I did

8:45

not feel special and never , ever

8:47

felt it , ever

8:50

felt it . I felt so less

8:52

that . But I didn't

8:54

know that . You know , I didn't

8:56

know that , where

8:58

that came from . I just felt always

9:01

just not enough , and I

9:04

always wanted to be like the other kids

9:06

or always wanted to be somebody

9:08

other than who I was , and I didn't

9:10

know who I was . I think that was the issue

9:13

. There was zero identity . I

9:15

was struggling to find an identity

9:17

and I didn't know these things . So

9:19

, yeah , I was a happy adoptee as far

9:21

as I knew . But

9:24

yeah , I mean , I've always been

9:26

an outgoing happy

9:29

. I was a happy baby , they said , when I

9:31

they brought me home . I

9:33

was always trying to

9:36

feel

9:38

enough . But I've also

9:41

just had this outgoing personality

9:43

and fun loving

9:45

. I've never been a depressed person

9:47

. I've certainly been depressed

9:49

by writing my manuscript

9:51

. There is a dark place as because some

9:53

, some bad stuff happened

9:56

in my background that

9:58

I had to , you know , dig

10:00

it . But I've

10:02

always been . That's just the way I'm wired

10:04

. You know , I'm not super sensitive . Like

10:08

like many , I

10:10

felt I felt . If I felt bad , I

10:12

didn't identify

10:14

it , but I always felt bad

10:16

. Now I can see

10:18

that . You know , I was just . I

10:21

was just always trying to feel enough and

10:24

I never felt enough .

10:26

I always find that extremely striking when

10:28

I hear that . It does not matter how many

10:30

times I hear it either . I

10:32

didn't really understand during that time

10:34

period of my life , but now , through

10:36

reflection , I can connect those

10:38

dots and

10:41

depending on how old you are when

10:43

you make that discovery

10:45

, it can be as

10:47

earth shattering as the

10:49

simplest little thing in

10:51

your life prior and

10:54

I always , I'm always , struck by it . I really

10:56

am .

10:56

You know the adoption narrative that

10:59

we grew up with . I think

11:01

it was brainwashing . It

11:03

was really . It was brainwashing , it's

11:06

absolutely brainwashing and

11:08

I mean , what were they to say and what were they

11:10

to do ? How ? I mean , what was the ? What

11:12

were they to do ? You know , back then

11:15

, you know you were given a baby and it was like

11:17

you birthed them yourself . You know

11:19

this was supposed to be your child and

11:22

you know my , my brother , who

11:25

we got three years after I was adopted

11:28

. He bonded with my mom and . I

11:30

thought I did too , but he really

11:32

didn't be sensitive like her . He

11:34

was needy , she was . She

11:37

was super codependent because of the

11:39

way she grew up and so it was just

11:42

. It worked for them . I was always independent

11:44

, you know , I was

11:46

outgoing , I could make friends

11:48

, I could talk to anybody . You know those

11:50

those things . I always wanted to be on the move

11:52

and my brother was completely opposite

11:55

. It was a lot like my mom . First time

11:57

that I really noticed

11:59

I felt inadequate is

12:02

first grade . I

12:04

could not do my numbers

12:07

. I couldn't . I

12:09

had a problem transitioning

12:12

from like 10 to 11 and

12:14

20 to 21 , and you know those things . And

12:17

I don't think it

12:19

wasn't because I wasn't smart , it

12:21

was because I was so afraid

12:24

that I wasn't going to get . And

12:26

when I get afraid , my frontal lobe completely

12:29

shuts down and I cannot do it . It's

12:32

a problem with the frontal lobe . It just

12:34

goes blank out of terror . And

12:37

I remember my parents . We get so frustrated

12:39

with me , you know , throw down their hands

12:41

on the table and push their chair back . How

12:44

are you helper , you know ? And

12:46

I just felt like I was . You know , I

12:48

was such a disappointment . And

12:51

I have this . You know I've got a lot

12:53

of pride . This is the way I was

12:55

. I came here . I'm a Leo

12:57

, six times a Leo , so I guess

12:59

I've got a lot of pride , and all I wanted

13:01

is you to be proud of me . I

13:05

wanted you to pat me on the head and say Good

13:07

, mary , monica , you did such a great job

13:09

. You know , monica , you did this

13:11

, monica , you did today . I don't need that anymore

13:14

. I'm older , you know , and I'm

13:16

past all that . But gosh , for years

13:18

I just wanted to be

13:20

enough and I didn't feel

13:22

and never did . And so in

13:24

in , that was when I

13:27

really felt inadequate and then it

13:29

. I think that the final , the final

13:31

blow . But I got to be in like second

13:34

grade . I think it was when we started really

13:36

reading . We had those SRA

13:38

reading cards . I don't know if you , adam

13:40

, but I did .

13:41

I love those things . I was thinking

13:43

about them the other day , Remember when you would pick

13:45

one out , you'd read it . You

13:47

take the little test , you go put it

13:49

back and you go get the next one because it was progressive

13:52

reading . Loved them .

13:53

So clever and I went up like three

13:56

reading levels , like all . I just progressed

13:59

so quickly and I felt good

14:01

about myself , you know , and I remember

14:03

the teacher . I remember I see him seeing

14:05

a sign outside and asked

14:07

my mom what it said and she said because

14:09

it was P I Z Z A , and

14:12

she said that's pizza . And so in

14:14

class , you know , the teacher thought she was

14:16

going to trick everybody and I said it's pizza

14:18

. And I can still remember the very few

14:20

times I got accolades there

14:23

were very few , right , that was a . That was

14:25

a huge accolade for me , I think

14:27

it's but but we had I I'm

14:30

assuming it was a census of sorts and

14:33

so everybody , you know , got out

14:35

the number two pencils and had to fill in

14:37

the dots . And there was a question that

14:39

I could not answer . It did not have an applicable

14:42

answer that fit me , and that was

14:44

don't remember the details of it

14:46

, but are you living with your real parents

14:48

, kind of question . Well , I was living

14:51

with my real parents , but they're not my real parents

14:53

, because I knew I had other parents out there , but I had to

14:55

. They are my real parents . And

14:57

I went home confused , I didn't

14:59

finish the test , I felt inadequate

15:02

in class . All the other kids could do it

15:04

, I couldn't . And when I went home and

15:06

told my mom , my father , when

15:09

I mean he got really angry

15:11

and he didn't I mean I took a you know , children

15:13

are self centered were supposed to be second

15:16

grade , but I took it that there was something

15:18

wrong with me , that the problem

15:20

wasn't with the school and the privacy

15:22

issues and it was with

15:24

me , and they made a huge deal about it

15:26

. Went to school , you

15:28

know , embarrassed me , you know . I

15:30

felt like I was the error of my being and

15:32

that and the reading and

15:35

all the stuff stopped . I

15:38

didn't progress . It would just stand

15:40

me right there . I was excited , and

15:43

so I think you know

15:45

there's a number of things that happened and you

15:47

know there's certainly a very

15:50

abusive , dysfunctional

15:52

, very sick people

15:54

that I was adopted by and

15:57

even now I feel this like

15:59

a mean disloyal . You know I

16:01

just go guilt for saying that . You

16:04

know , because I love them . They were my parents

16:06

. You know , all I ever wanted was

16:08

to for

16:10

them to love me , you know . So I

16:14

didn't know any of those things

16:16

when I was a kid . You don't know why

16:18

you feel certain ways . I didn't know

16:21

that there was an identity issue . My brother

16:23

and I thought we were . You know on the

16:25

outside that it was cool we were adopted , because

16:27

it was like a parlor trick , we were adopted

16:29

. Oh well , I wish I was adopted , you

16:32

know , and . But in

16:34

reality it caused so much confusion

16:37

for me , so much confusion

16:39

, and I didn't know until I started

16:41

writing my memoir .

16:43

What a time for all of that to come together to

16:45

later in life , I think is so

16:48

tricky , no different than you

16:50

just now describing childhood

16:52

and now really coming to

16:54

terms with it in a later adulthood

16:56

. I'm there with you and I'm

16:58

many times flabbergasted

17:01

at what I learned about myself or how

17:04

I feel about some

17:06

aspect of the topic . Well

17:08

, let's move it forward a little bit , because

17:10

we introduced you not only as

17:13

an adoptee but

17:15

as a birth parent , and I

17:17

think we should at least

17:19

forewarn the listeners

17:21

a little bit that the next part of your

17:23

story is definitely not rose

17:25

filled . And yeah

17:28

, major trigger warning for those that

17:30

have sensitivities for some of the things

17:32

that happen in the world , and

17:34

to women and the consequences

17:37

of those actions . So why

17:39

don't we go ahead and talk a little bit about

17:41

you as a birth parent

17:43

? Let's start with you

17:46

talking about pregnancy

17:48

and what that , what you know , your

17:50

age , what that was entailing

17:53

for you and the struggles of being

17:56

pregnant with a

17:58

lot of very circumstantial conditions

18:00

.

18:01

Well , this was 1973 . So

18:04

things were different and

18:06

this was in Alaska . I

18:09

, my parents , were very Catholic . We

18:11

went to every holy day . We had

18:13

nuns and priests at our house on the regular

18:15

. Father girl

18:17

, my brother's bed you know

18:19

how you hold up a bed with the wooden

18:22

slats , you know the mattress . The

18:24

middle of the night it fell . The father

18:26

girl fell on the floor . The whole house

18:29

, should you know . We had nuns

18:31

at our house . They were at dinner , we

18:33

were , we went to , we

18:36

went to mass and and

18:38

it was every confession

18:40

, all of that . So there

18:43

was also this , this purity

18:45

in our home , this

18:47

, this , you know , catholic

18:50

. I was married . I was named Mary Monica

18:52

after the Virgin Mary . My

18:55

mother was a virgin when she was married . My father

18:57

used to tell my brother and that I

18:59

that that she was a saint , because he couldn't

19:01

get her in the house until they were married , when

19:04

we were children you know

19:06

when she wasn't around . There's just

19:08

some really weird things . So when I

19:10

got pregnant , my mother

19:12

never had a baby . I didn't , you know

19:14

, I had nobody to ask . You

19:16

know why am I having late grants ? I

19:19

had my fingers swell . What did it feel

19:21

like ? You know how was it painful

19:23

. You know all those things that I didn't

19:26

have anybody to talk to about

19:28

. And being pregnant Back

19:31

then they hid you away , there wasn't

19:33

, it wasn't even go to school . Now

19:36

, a few years later , it changed . But it

19:38

wasn't that way , you know , and my friends

19:40

knew I was pregnant , but

19:42

because we were Catholic , I think partly

19:45

. I'm sure it was out of shame

19:47

that they wanted me to . Nobody

19:49

would find out , but I think

19:51

it was also . They were thought they were protecting

19:54

me and my parents were older . So

19:56

when my , when I , was adopted , my father

19:58

was 42 and my mother was 32 . And

20:00

that was older back then . So they

20:03

had older ideas as well , and

20:06

and so , being isolated

20:08

in all during the last , the winter is pretty

20:11

lonely and my friends didn't

20:13

come over . I wasn't able to

20:15

do the things that I used

20:17

to do , and one of my survival

20:19

strategies was to

20:21

be a juvenile delinquent . And

20:24

my parents my mother , was very

20:26

. She bought most , almost

20:28

all my stories . You know I was a really

20:30

good liar , very narcissistic

20:34

, a little criminal , and

20:36

I don't . When

20:40

I'm thinking about why I did those things

20:42

now I

20:44

can see that I just wanted someone to look

20:46

up to me . Now I couldn't

20:48

get that at school because I didn't do well

20:50

, my academics weren't weren't

20:53

good , the kids that were

20:55

coming from the lower 48 , because now

20:57

this is a boom town , so we had had oil

20:59

discovered , and so when I'm

21:02

in junior high in 1970 and 71

21:04

. And I didn't get tripled , that you know like

21:06

we had double shifts . And

21:08

now there's , you know , bank

21:10

kids that you know came from the lower 48

21:13

, then nice homes and nice

21:15

clothes , and you know I came from a

21:17

middle class home but we we

21:19

weren't cool . My parents

21:21

were never cool , they were old fashioned , right

21:23

. My mom was overprotective

21:26

and so I didn't fit in in school

21:28

and I figured there

21:31

was an event that happened with my

21:33

father , a very traumatic event

21:35

, I think . That's where I

21:38

just clicked when I was 13 and just

21:40

became as bad as I could be and and

21:43

started breaking into houses and vandalizing

21:45

and fighting . You know , taking

21:48

LSD and breaking

21:50

out my window and you know , getting

21:53

into places I should never have been . You know

21:55

there was some horrific things that I saw

21:57

. At night and

21:59

in the wintertime it's dark , in the summertime it's

22:01

light the

22:04

hardest days . Five hours in the sun never

22:06

sets , really in the summer it's

22:08

just . You have this twilight and it was

22:10

my guiding light when I stuck out my

22:12

window to feel I

22:14

wanted to feel I

22:16

wanted to be

22:18

a part of it and I never

22:21

felt that at home I was never a part

22:23

of it . My mom , nobody

22:26

wanted to come hang out at my house because it was not

22:28

a cool place . So being

22:30

pregnant and isolated was

22:33

a God said

22:35

in a sense , because it

22:37

stopped that activity . I

22:39

don't know what my life would have been like had

22:42

that have not my juvenile

22:44

delinquent behavior . It's

22:47

just like now I'm in the house with

22:49

my very Catholic mother crocheting

22:52

and saying the rosary , so my baby will

22:54

get good parents going

22:57

to see a nun every week . You know , it's like a whole

23:00

different paradigm shift .

23:02

And what I would like us to do is

23:04

put a little bit around that and acknowledge

23:07

the circumstances in which

23:09

you just described the environment

23:12

, the culture it

23:14

did shape , how you were going

23:16

to go through that experience , and

23:19

so we're going to spend a lot of time

23:22

, the rest of our discussion , talking

23:25

about you as a birth parent

23:27

. Walk us through that

23:29

decision process and

23:32

how you started coping

23:34

with that , and things

23:37

you told yourself during

23:39

that journey .

23:41

There was never a discussion about

23:44

what was going to happen to the baby

23:46

. It was never , will

23:48

. You know , rovers is way

23:50

to went through and it was already

23:53

available to people in

23:55

Alaska when I got pregnant , but

23:57

it wasn't actually Malore 48 . But

24:00

it would have never been an option for

24:02

our Catholic family , I mean , it was not even

24:04

not even for

24:07

me or for my parents . So that

24:10

never came up in discussion and neither did

24:12

being a , you know , putting the baby

24:14

up for an option , which is what we called it back then

24:16

. It was just assumed . It

24:19

was no conversation , it's just you're going to go see a

24:21

nun , I found

24:23

. You know you have a choice . You can either

24:26

go to Fairbanks I found

24:28

a school , pregnant mother

24:30

, pregnant girls , and

24:33

there's one in Seattle or

24:35

you can stay here . They have

24:37

, you know , classes for

24:39

girls at

24:42

the advent , the admin building

24:44

here , and so you can go with other pregnant

24:46

girls . And I was 15 . So

24:49

I was , I was , I had

24:51

no job , I had , I was just

24:53

, I was very mature , just a little

24:55

, just a little girl . You know , really I was

24:58

, and so

25:00

I mean I just went along with the program

25:03

and the whole time , especially when

25:05

I started , you know , when the my baby

25:07

started growing and I could feel her

25:09

moving and , oh my gosh , I , I

25:12

, they took me to see sister

25:14

Mary Claire , every week or every

25:16

other week depending , and every time

25:18

that I went to the OBGYN appointment

25:21

I would either have a conversation with

25:23

sister Claire or go see her , because she

25:25

wanted to be apprised of how her apprised

25:27

goose was cooking , you

25:29

know . And so I

25:32

, I again

25:34

, wanted someone to care about me , and

25:36

I love sister Claire . She

25:39

was so , so darling

25:42

oh , you're just a darling and

25:44

she had a New York accent

25:46

and she was an older lady

25:48

and she had a big navy

25:50

blue , you know

25:53

, with a , with a veil , with white

25:55

around her face , and

25:57

she was just so kind and so sweet

25:59

and we just hit it off right away

26:01

. And but the back of my

26:03

mind , I always knew that

26:06

her job was to make friends with

26:08

the birth mother and

26:11

take her baby , give them to somebody

26:13

better to raise . That's

26:15

always what I knew in the back of my mind . Yet

26:17

I wanted to love her at the same time , you

26:19

know . So I

26:23

mean , you think about it with

26:25

what a mind fuck sorry , but

26:27

it just is . You know , and I'm

26:29

looking forward to seeing her because I have nowhere to

26:31

, you know , nothing , nobody's coming over , and I

26:33

go see her and I know in the back of my mind

26:36

that that's what's going to happen . And I

26:38

do know I did . There

26:40

is absolutely no freaking

26:42

way . And I mean I , I

26:44

was completely under my parents

26:47

thumb except

26:49

for one thing , and

26:51

that was I wanted to see

26:53

my baby . That

26:55

was the only human that was my

26:58

relative in the world

27:00

that I knew . Of my only blood

27:02

relative I had nobody , my

27:04

whole family . I even wrote in my journal because my mom

27:06

bought us a journal . She knew I

27:09

needed a journal to go through this and

27:13

I said my mom and my

27:15

brother and I aren't related because we're both

27:17

adopted and my parents aren't related to each

27:19

other and they're not related to us either . We're just

27:21

all strangers , you know we

27:23

just . I just

27:25

felt like a stranger in that house , and

27:28

so to have somebody

27:30

that looked like me , that

27:33

was a part of me , was like that's

27:35

all I cared about and that's all I did . That's

27:37

all I hung on to is being able

27:39

to see her . Now , you didn't get to see your

27:41

baby at the Catholic hospital you

27:44

couldn't . At the other hospital

27:46

that wasn't Catholic , but not at the Catholic

27:48

hospital they didn't let you see your babies . But

27:50

I groomed Sister Claire from the beginning

27:53

to let me see my baby and I knew

27:55

at the very last

27:57

minute , if they wouldn't

27:59

let me see her , I would . I would

28:02

. I'd just hold her around some

28:04

. Sorry , you don't get my baby

28:06

, I'm not signing these papers unless I

28:08

get to see her and hold her . And

28:11

anyway I didn't have to go that far . That

28:13

was the you know cause I never

28:15

defied my parents back then . You just , I

28:17

mean I would sneak around and I would lie

28:19

and I would . You know all those things . But you

28:22

know , if you look at your parents and even

28:24

when they're talking to you , if you look away

28:26

or look down or roll your eyes

28:29

, never did anything like that . I

28:31

mean slap across the face . My

28:33

mother was a rager

28:36

, you know she's terrified me

28:38

and my father . I

28:40

was never afraid of my dad until he beat me with

28:42

a wire hanger , the most excruciating

28:44

thing I've ever felt . I mean I've had 11 pound

28:46

babies , a baby , you know

28:48

, natural childbirth , and it had

28:51

that didn't hold the candle to a wire hanger

28:53

beating . I'm telling you I

28:55

don't , I didn't . After the

28:58

beating I never really I knew it wouldn't

29:00

happen again . I guess I don't know

29:02

how I knew it , but nobody ever said they were sorry

29:04

or anything . It was just pushed out

29:06

of the rug and I hit it from , you

29:09

know , the authorities , because I

29:11

love my parents and I didn't want to

29:13

be taken out of the home and my mother

29:16

had grew me from young that

29:18

she was terrified of losing me

29:20

because I was an adoptee . You know

29:22

, she's terrified of the mom coming back and

29:24

taking me and I , my brother and I

29:26

heard this all the time and so even

29:29

when things got really really , really bad

29:31

at home before I got pregnant and I

29:33

wanted to run away more than anything

29:35

in the whole world , I would never have done it because

29:37

it would have hurt my mom , because

29:39

I loved her so much . You know , here

29:41

I am going to the nun

29:44

and I did . She

29:46

said I'll send a note to the hospital

29:49

and

29:51

see if they'll agree to let me see your baby

29:53

. And so one day

29:55

I'd go in and we hadn't

29:58

, you know , talked about the

30:00

parents or anything and

30:02

she hadn't found any parents

30:05

. But closer to the end she

30:07

had found parents and she , you

30:09

know , said I found the perfect couple

30:12

to adopt your baby . They're so wonderful

30:15

, I mean , they were presented with

30:17

such enthusiasm that

30:20

I mean I felt like I was going to throw

30:22

up and pass out . I mean , I got clammy in

30:24

my mouth full with saliva , you know , and

30:27

at the whole time I acted happy . Oh

30:29

, good good . You know

30:31

, I'm always wanting to be

30:33

approved on . You know , f

30:36

, and

30:38

I felt like I was just

30:41

in the end of a dark tunnel . You know

30:43

, there's a caveat that we didn't talk about

30:45

, and that is that

30:47

I had stuck out my bedroom window a lot

30:49

and I

30:51

had this virgin mentality

30:54

because it went hammered home in my home

30:56

and I knew that I'd

30:59

make them proud subconsciously if I

31:01

were a virgin . I don't think it was ever a conversation

31:04

that I had with my parents , other than

31:06

my father's very inappropriate

31:08

raging at me at one point , which is in my

31:10

book , and it was probably one

31:12

of the most horrific

31:14

things I've been through , abuse-wise

31:17

. Thank God I did some EMDR

31:19

in 2020, . You know , I

31:21

had 11 big tea traumas

31:24

. 11 big tea traumas

31:26

Like not little tea traumas 10

31:28

millions living in a house

31:31

that you were constantly being gaslit

31:33

, but these were 11

31:35

big tea traumas and

31:37

my therapist , you know , was

31:39

just like wow , I've never seen so

31:41

many . And you know , I know

31:43

that I came to this life , this

31:46

monarchy

31:48

, you know , ended up on planet

31:50

Earth , being able to handle

31:53

it . You know , I'm strong

31:55

. I have an ability

31:57

to repress , push

31:59

things down , block things out

32:02

, disassociate . My

32:04

brain protected me from so

32:07

much and I've had to unwind

32:09

that , most of it , in writing

32:12

this memoir and you get to unwind

32:14

it with me . You get to , you know , discover

32:17

the things that I discover as I'm discovering

32:20

it . I mean , it's like because that's what I

32:22

needed to do and there's so much that still

32:24

my brain is protecting me from

32:27

and I'm grateful for that . So

32:29

I stuck up my bedroom

32:31

window and got raped at 15

32:34

by a 19 year old heroin addict and

32:36

I had known him and

32:38

I blamed myself . I

32:41

blamed myself and

32:43

I know that at the time I didn't know

32:45

anything about . You know , back then rape

32:48

was when you were attacked

32:50

in a dark alley . You know you had bruises

32:53

, you screamed , you know , you didn't know you're

32:55

a seller and you know that whole thing . And

32:58

this was not the case . I knew him

33:00

. I didn't want to

33:02

be intimate with him . He was older

33:04

, he was scary , I didn't , you know . And

33:06

so the way I wired

33:09

it in my brain , I

33:11

felt guilty and I kept it a secret . So

33:13

when my parents were yelling at me who

33:16

was it what you know ? Broken hearted

33:18

that their daughter is a slut

33:20

, you know which is what my mind

33:22

told me ? I was the

33:25

first time I ever defied them . I didn't

33:27

answer . I just I couldn't

33:29

, because if I did , they

33:32

would have made a huge deal out

33:34

of it , like they did with the census

33:36

, and humiliated me and

33:38

I would have been . I mean , it was just . It

33:41

was so tragic , you know , and

33:43

I did not clear

33:45

that until I was 60 , writing

33:47

my memoir . It took me almost two

33:49

years of writing over and over

33:51

again and going over it with my friends and

33:54

my mother and until

33:56

I could see it from an adult perspective

33:58

because my brain had been

34:00

, I was still

34:03

seeing so much with a child's stuff mind

34:05

, and there's so many other

34:07

things that I did as well . So

34:09

the

34:11

that was , you know , something I never

34:14

told anybody until

34:16

I had to meet my daughter .

34:19

Yeah , let's take

34:21

a moment for the listeners

34:24

. It's a lot to process to

34:26

hear someone talk about the

34:28

pressures of living in a strict

34:31

religious home , to know

34:33

what it's like to be 15 . I

34:35

know we feel old , but it's

34:37

not like it was so distant

34:39

. I can't remember to be

34:41

violated and

34:44

to not feel capable

34:47

of speaking of that . That's a very

34:49

heavy thing to hear and it's a very

34:51

heavy thing to process and so to

34:54

write about it , to share about it today

34:56

, it's gotta be a little bit draining .

34:59

Yeah , see , that's what I was saying . I get to

35:01

regurgitate it in podcasts

35:03

and book clubs . It does

35:05

not go away . But

35:10

you know , this is the thing , and I'm just

35:12

really quick . I wanna say this you know I

35:14

wrote this . I realized I was writing

35:17

it because my daughter wanted me to and then I realized

35:19

there was more that I needed to heal , that I didn't

35:21

even realize I needed to and then

35:23

I could have stopped at

35:25

any time . I'm doing this

35:27

because , gosh , so

35:30

many people have related to just the

35:32

essays I write on my website . I

35:35

mean I feel like I'm not alone . I

35:37

mean not everybody's been great , thank God

35:40

, but we've all had

35:42

struggles and

35:44

humiliations and difficulties

35:46

, you know , and when I hear somebody

35:49

else's , and especially told

35:51

with such honesty , that

35:53

I mean I feel like I can

35:55

speak up to , like

35:57

my secrets aren't so bad . You

36:00

know what I mean , and so you

36:02

know the book's not depressing . By the way , it's

36:04

got some definite , you know , difficult

36:07

subject matter , but it's written like

36:09

a novel and it's entertaining

36:12

and you know healing

36:14

and parts of it are funny

36:17

and some of it's very sad

36:19

, but , man , I

36:21

survive , I

36:23

survive , I'm a

36:25

survivor . You know what I mean . I

36:29

thrive today , you

36:32

know , and this did not take me

36:35

down being an adoptee , being raped

36:37

, being abused , being

36:39

a birth mother , having to lose my child to

36:41

adoption , all the other shit

36:43

that's happened in the whole of the years that I've been

36:46

on the planet and there's been a lot of other stuff

36:48

, right , none of it took

36:50

me down . Yeah , it was hard

36:52

and yeah I mean , but I

36:55

believe anybody can

36:57

if they want to heal . It

37:00

is not unique to just

37:02

a few . You

37:05

know it is available and

37:07

there's so much out there to help us today

37:09

If there wasn't back in

37:11

the day , you know .

37:13

Right .

37:13

Nobody talked about it . You know , it was all

37:15

hush hush . Thank goodness

37:18

for podcasts .

37:20

Yeah , what I've also heard in

37:23

this conversation is how you

37:25

have set aside any

37:27

shame that you may have had or felt during

37:30

that time period and , as an

37:32

adult , and because of all the things that you have done

37:34

to work on you and heal you

37:36

and share out

37:39

you and survive , the

37:42

shame component of it is not coming

37:44

through and I think that's a really good thing

37:46

to celebrate . So congratulations

37:49

it's I know it's a very

37:51

difficult thing to let

37:53

go . Well , I want us

37:55

to stick a little bit to you

37:58

. Ultimately did relinquish

38:00

your daughter . It was a girl . You

38:02

referenced her as a her a

38:05

few times now in our conversation

38:08

and you , from

38:10

that point until when

38:12

, always knew you were going

38:14

to do what .

38:15

So the whole time I was pregnant , the

38:18

only thing I hung on to was

38:20

18 years . That was it

38:22

18 years . I

38:24

counted the years Every

38:27

birthday . Every birthday I'd sit

38:29

and I'd think about her , knowing

38:31

that that

38:33

she would be thinking about me too . And

38:37

on my birthday , like my

38:39

16th birthday , I just relinquished my

38:41

daughter . It was probably one of the most depressing

38:44

days of my life . It was dark and

38:46

gray , july 27th in Alaska

38:48

. Alaska summers could be miserable

38:50

and nobody wanted to

38:52

come over , nobody wanted to hang out with me

38:54

, and it was just morose

38:57

and depressing . That was

38:59

. My baby was

39:01

just not even a month old and

39:05

I thought , and I wrote in my journal

39:08

my other mother is

39:10

thinking about me , must be thinking about

39:12

me . I think about my baby all

39:14

the time . It's so weird thinking

39:17

that somebody's thinking about you

39:19

that you don't even know , like my

39:21

mom thinking

39:23

about me and my birthday . That's kind of

39:25

how I got through

39:28

those 18 years

39:31

, other than lots of drugs and alcohol

39:33

, because I spiraled

39:35

out of control . We moved about nine

39:37

months later to the lower 48 in California

39:39

where I live now Sacramento area

39:41

and not long after that my father

39:44

passed , a couple of years later and

39:47

I had a very sick , complex

39:50

relationship with my father . He

39:52

was abusive and

39:55

favored me . It's

39:58

just gross . And

40:00

so when he died , I went

40:03

. I just started drinking

40:05

and going up to the bar every night and

40:07

sleeping with any guy that would take me

40:09

home , looking for a

40:12

daddy , looking for someone to replace the

40:14

only person that really gave me attention

40:16

my mom didn't drop me when

40:18

we got my brother and I

40:21

was such a mess . And

40:26

then I found Black Label , which is Johnny

40:28

Walker Black on the rocks and

40:31

that's what I drank . And it

40:33

was , oh my gosh , it

40:36

took care of all of it . I

40:39

could have a drink and it

40:41

would all melt away All the pain

40:43

I felt . Enough for the first time

40:45

. It worked until it stopped working

40:48

At the end . I mean

40:50

, I was drugs , cocaine

40:53

, so I could drink more . But I

40:56

just hung on to

40:58

the idea that in 18 years I can

41:01

find her and I would look for her .

41:03

Well , you did , you did look and

41:06

you did find her , and so fast

41:08

forward us to kind of where

41:11

you are today in the context

41:13

of that relationship .

41:15

Oh my gosh , she looks just like me . We

41:17

FaceTime . She's been going through

41:19

some school stuff . She

41:21

was changing careers in the last two years

41:23

so we don't we

41:26

weren't talking as often , but she lives in Grand

41:28

Rapids , michigan , and

41:30

she turned 50 in June and

41:33

I went back for my granddaughter's

41:35

graduation party . She's

41:37

going to Michigan State and she

41:40

had a big party and my daughter didn't

41:42

want to celebrate her birthday . She doesn't like birthdays

41:44

. Interesting , right

41:46

she was

41:48

. She was used to sit by the window

41:50

waiting for me to come for her cry and

41:54

when she was eight I had

41:57

given the sister

41:59

to give to the parents of Virgin Mary

42:01

Statue and she had taken it to school as

42:03

a show and tell the talk . Whatever her

42:05

birth mother had given it to her . It

42:10

was packed in a bag and it fell out

42:12

and got a little dent in the virgin's head

42:15

. You know , it was just troubling

42:17

. You know to her her prized possession

42:20

, but it sits next to her bed still

42:22

today , always has . I

42:24

was really surprised to see it there and she's always

42:26

been there . Can we were reunited

42:29

when she turned 18 ? And that

42:31

was incredible . But now we

42:33

have the same clothes on our closet , we

42:35

have . We talk alike , we

42:38

walk alike . We are both

42:40

like bulls in a china shop . We

42:42

are both bright , but not

42:45

educated per se . Smart

42:48

, she's real smart , and I

42:50

always thought I was stupid . I'm

42:53

not . I'm pretty smart too , you know

42:55

, just a different kind of smart , not the book smart

42:57

, Although I wrote a damn

43:00

book , I mean , you know , and

43:02

I've had a lot of success in my life . So , yeah

43:04

, I've got some smarts , but , and

43:06

so is she . And but

43:08

again , you know , she had a really good family

43:11

. She got a really good family , oh

43:13

my gosh . So I

43:15

mean , everything's not perfect , you know , never

43:18

is . But man , she , she's a wonderful

43:20

parents . I was envious of

43:22

her parents . I wish I had parents

43:24

like that , you know , although

43:27

I would never want to not have my parents

43:29

, you know , because they're my parents . It's

43:32

like you wipe them away . They're

43:35

my parents even though they were .

43:37

Yeah , that's just one of the more unique things

43:39

about adoption and being

43:42

adopted is that , despite

43:45

or in spite , you decide which of

43:47

those two words you want to use , and their

43:49

definition of who

43:52

you ended up with as parents . Those

43:55

are your parents and we

43:58

. We can't do anything differently about

44:00

that . It's just the fact and

44:03

yeah

44:05

, it's . It's not our

44:07

would-a , should-a , could-a , it just

44:09

is . And it is very hard sometimes

44:11

to to come to terms

44:14

with that . I don't , I don't

44:16

really care who you are , it's just sometimes hard . It

44:18

is .

44:19

I don't know , it's very hard

44:21

to unwind . You know , I've

44:23

heard adoptees being really angry

44:25

and , you know , wish they'd never been adopted .

44:28

We have a tendency not

44:31

every adoptee , but many

44:33

and those that I talk to we

44:36

have attachment issues , banding

44:38

mint issues , and we have trust

44:40

issues , and so

44:43

you put those all in one little human

44:45

ball of fire . So you're going to get

44:47

what you get and you

44:49

know that's just where we're , you know

44:51

that's just where it is and it doesn't . It's

44:54

another one of those things we can't apologize

44:56

for . There's nothing to apologize

44:58

for .

45:00

And you know , I don't , I don't anymore , I

45:02

don't know that I ever really did apologize for that

45:04

, but I definitely

45:07

. I've definitely everybody's wired

45:09

a little differently when it comes to your parents . You

45:11

know , and you

45:14

know I . Just I don't , and

45:16

you know I . This is the other thing . It's just I've

45:19

done a lot of work on myself . I got sober

45:21

40 years ago . On

45:23

tomorrow , when this airs , it'll

45:26

be the 21st tomorrow and

45:28

I will have 40 years of

45:30

continuous sobriety , clean

45:33

drugs at alcohol and

45:35

and that's when my , my healing journey

45:37

really began I'd already

45:39

found my biological family . I

45:41

found them in 1980 . And that

45:44

that was , that was huge . And then

45:46

in 91 , I was reading on my daughter and

45:48

that that did some healing . And by the time

45:50

I was reading on my daughter , I was sober

45:52

. I was sober up seven years , I think . Incidentally

45:55

, she ended up getting sober . She's

45:58

just like me , just like

46:00

me , and she's

46:02

going to be sober up April

46:05

, 30 years . So

46:07

you know , the apple doesn't

46:09

fall , fall far from the tree . We're

46:11

so much alike and

46:14

at the same time we're so much alike

46:16

that we annoy each other Because

46:18

those character defects we

46:21

both have the same ones , and I see

46:23

them in her and she sees them in me

46:25

. It's a mirror . Things that irritate me

46:27

about myself I see in her . So you

46:29

know , we have had our complexities

46:31

for sure in our relationship . But man

46:33

, she'll call me , and

46:36

it's generally on a Sunday , and

46:38

she'll call me and it looks like

46:40

she just wants me to pull her out of a hole , like

46:43

I don't know what's wrong . I'm just so sad

46:45

. I don't know what's wrong and it's

46:47

Sunday , it's the day I related to this , the

46:49

day I gave birth , and she wants , she goes

46:51

, and I remember one her , her daughter

46:54

, comes over , my granddaughter mommy

46:56

what's wrong ? Why are you crying ? She goes . I just

46:58

miss grandma . So she doesn't

47:00

identify . She's not really

47:02

out of the fog per se . She does

47:05

, she goes . I don't want to do that . I don't want

47:07

to go to fog . I don't want to listen to all my may already

47:09

angry enough , but

47:12

you know . So she's not there , but

47:14

she , you know , she has identified

47:16

it . You know I miss grandma

47:19

, you know , and I miss

47:21

all the stuff , all the things

47:23

that I can't be a part of

47:25

and I can't be either . It's or

47:28

my birth , my birth family adopted

47:31

out of Canada and I

47:33

go back and forth . The Canada , my family's

47:35

all like I'm indigenous , I'm

47:38

a third creed in the end , and I

47:40

didn't . I mean I always had

47:42

a , you know , always felt

47:45

like I wanted to be , Didn't know I was

47:47

until I found my family . But

47:50

they have family reunions , we

47:52

put our handprints on TPs

47:54

, we have dried meat , we do all the

47:56

things you know , and both sides of

47:59

my family and and I miss

48:01

it all .

48:02

It's very hard to to wrap our

48:04

brains around that . Prior

48:06

to us hitting the record button

48:08

today , we were talking

48:10

about a couple of different things and

48:13

at you talking about your

48:16

heritage and your

48:19

large family going

48:21

and traveling to see each other . We

48:24

had just talked about something very

48:26

similar I shared with you

48:28

. I hold the Bible

48:30

of my adopted maternal

48:33

grandmother and in

48:35

her era , that's where all of

48:37

the family information is stored , and

48:40

we were I don't even know why

48:42

we got here Listeners . I don't know

48:44

how Monica and I got here . In all honesty

48:47

, we'll just

48:49

kind of laugh a little bit because we don't know how we got here

48:51

, but we were kind of talking about end of life

48:53

. For some reason I brought it up and

48:56

in the context of this Bible and

48:59

I shared with you . I've

49:01

been thinking about this Bible today

49:03

specifically and

49:05

I need to make some decisions about it , because

49:08

it's not my

49:10

current immediate

49:13

family , it's

49:15

not their heritage , it's my adopted

49:18

family's heritage and

49:20

it means something to me

49:22

, which is why I have it . But

49:25

when I pass and someone has to

49:27

clean my stuff out , unless

49:30

I'm explicit about that thing

49:32

, I'm afraid someone's

49:34

going to throw it in the trash , and

49:37

it is . It is a family

49:39

heirloom and so I need to make sure my

49:41

nephew gets it or

49:43

my niece , who are actually

49:46

part of the bloodline , the official bloodline

49:48

. And even though

49:50

we shared that back and forth and you and

49:52

I were talking just about the things we've missed

49:54

as adoptees

49:56

with our biological family , at

49:58

the same time I look over at my maternal

50:01

biological family I've shared

50:03

. It's a very large family and

50:05

they're very close and I love

50:07

watching them and how they are

50:10

tight to each other and how

50:12

they'll pull apart , because that's what families do

50:14

and they come back together and they're tight

50:16

and I kind of missed that

50:18

and I miss , I

50:20

miss it , I missed

50:22

it and it's

50:25

a whole and it's really unfortunate . It

50:27

was stolen . Well , definitely

50:29

not , not honored , definitely

50:33

not honored for sure . And

50:35

yeah , it's complex . It's complex

50:37

. There's no doubt about that .

50:38

I feel like I got ripped off . You know , I

50:41

mean I've accepted it and I

50:43

mean I've lived with it for very long

50:45

time . I've been in reunion with my biological

50:47

family like I don't know 43

50:50

, 44 years , my daughter

50:52

, you know what 50 years

50:54

and what 32

50:56

years actually , and 33

50:58

weeks , my goodness , and . But

51:01

I don't think I'll ever truly

51:03

get over the grief of what I lost

51:06

and I don't , and it's okay

51:08

, you know , I've accepted that this

51:10

, this is my destiny and

51:12

these are the things that I get to heal

51:14

. It's made me a better person

51:16

, it's made me kinder

51:19

, it's made me more compassionate

51:21

and , ultimately , I think that's

51:24

that's the healing component

51:26

that I needed and what happened in

51:28

their lives that made them do the things

51:30

that they did . Hurt people , hurt

51:32

people right . And and when

51:34

I can step away from that

51:36

and look at them from a

51:38

different lens into their

51:40

life . I've heard a lot of adoptees

51:43

. They're angry at their

51:45

birth parents for relinquishing them

51:47

, and particularly their birth , birth

51:49

months . And I never have been ever

51:51

angry . I never got to meet her . She

51:54

died when I was seven was a

51:56

whole that I never got . I never had to

51:58

ask her why or

52:00

what the background was . I mean

52:02

I only could listen to stories

52:04

from other people about her . I never

52:07

, ever doubted that she

52:09

loved doesn't mean that I didn't have that

52:11

primal wound in that whole , but

52:13

in my mind and in my heart I

52:15

never felt that she didn't love me

52:18

or want me and I think

52:20

that might be because I

52:22

really pushed and I loved

52:24

my baby with my entire

52:26

heart , my whole being

52:28

. I love that . The

52:31

birth mothers so much pain

52:33

and so much guilt and so much shame

52:35

right , and I had a lot of that as well

52:37

. But even passion for the

52:40

adoptees , it just want to know

52:42

things . You know it's our birthright

52:45

to know where we came from and what the hell

52:47

happened and why you didn't keep me .

52:49

When we were speaking earlier , we

52:51

talked about what makes your

52:54

story and the fact

52:56

that you've decided to put a pen

52:58

to paper and what makes

53:00

you a great advocate

53:02

in the community is

53:04

that connection between understanding

53:06

what it's like to be an adoptee and

53:09

being comfortable in your adoptee

53:12

skin , but also having

53:14

that experience of

53:17

birth parent under very

53:19

ugly conditions and

53:21

needing to relinquish , and living

53:23

through that side , which might

53:25

have balanced for you from the

53:28

time you gave birth

53:30

until she was 18 , your

53:32

mindset of knowing

53:35

. Okay , I get this whole

53:37

adopted parent , birth parent

53:39

, adoptee thing a little differently . I'm living

53:41

a different side of that . It's

53:44

powerful . I have mentioned this many

53:46

times . I will plug this book

53:48

just as much as I'll plug your book , which

53:50

is Candace Cahill's book , Thank you . She

53:53

speaks very openly about

53:55

her experience as a birth

53:58

parent and relinquishing . I loved it

54:00

from the concept of . I needed

54:02

to read that . I needed to hear

54:04

that side of the story because

54:07

I wasn't going to hear it from my birth

54:09

mother . It really humbled me and

54:11

I think your story

54:13

is another iteration of

54:16

that type of conversation

54:18

that we need to hear . So I appreciate

54:20

that you've come on the show today to

54:22

share that with the listeners . Yeah

54:25

, Candice's book .

54:25

Goodbye Again . Excellent , she

54:28

did a really good job and

54:31

man kindred

54:34

spirit there . You know my

54:37

book the name of it is Practically

54:39

Still A Virgin .

54:42

I'm looking forward to the

54:44

opportunity tomorrow

54:47

to order my own official

54:49

copy and

54:51

go from there , as

54:54

we're working to close out today

54:56

, and there is so much

54:58

more we could talk about , and so you know how

55:00

I feel you are always welcome

55:02

here , but if there is a

55:04

piece of this journey

55:07

that you would like to make sure we

55:09

touch on before we say adios

55:11

for today , what would that

55:13

be ? I ?

55:14

didn't talk about a lot of the

55:17

stuff that happened , especially the reunion

55:19

with my family , and I did get to

55:21

my father and I was there in his deathbed in

55:25

2018 . You

55:27

know , it was the same hospital where

55:29

I was relinquished and I

55:31

mean , I was there for four

55:33

days in this hospital

55:36

. It was health care . It's not like

55:38

hospice , where you actually have , you know

55:40

, you're in the hospital and you have a room where you

55:42

could all hang out with family . It's like completely

55:44

different , lisa , and it was so

55:46

painful in that

55:49

my siblings were telling

55:51

stories about my dad , stories

55:53

that I was missing from , and

55:57

it was just such a double-edged sword

55:59

. I got to hear these wonderful stories

56:01

but I was absent from

56:03

them . I didn't get that kind

56:05

of a dad . I got the kind

56:07

of dad that's abusive and

56:10

, oh man , I mean that was

56:13

such a gift . At the same time , it was so painful

56:16

. This one day , I

56:18

mean one afternoon , I

56:20

just needed to get out of there and walk

56:22

and I knew that I was relinquished . I

56:25

was born at that hospital and

56:27

I thought there's no way it would still be

56:29

there . Well , the ward where it

56:32

was dark , the

56:35

doors were all closed . You

56:37

could see the sign that said nursery

56:39

number , whatever on it on the door . I

56:42

went through those halls and I saw

56:44

those windows and I saw those

56:46

rooms and it was a full

56:49

circle because I was relinquished at

56:51

the hospital but then I got to be there with

56:53

my father at the end of this life

56:55

. It was like a full circle . So

56:58

this is so much , so

57:01

much that I am grateful

57:03

for , and

57:06

even the bad stuff , because

57:09

I have this absolutely open

57:14

heart today because it got broken

57:16

open . So

57:20

the book actually is on pre-order

57:22

today . You can pre-order it . So anybody who's listening

57:25

just go to Amazon or review

57:27

by books in a scope .

57:28

Play by this book . Well , thank

57:30

you . Thank you again for being on the show

57:32

and opening up more of your heart

57:34

to our listeners and sharing

57:36

out some of those extremely painful

57:39

pieces . We do appreciate

57:41

it and you're welcome here anytime , so thank you again

57:43

.

57:44

Thank you so much , Lysanne . It's always a pleasure

57:46

.

57:46

Thank you for listening to today's episode

57:48

of Wandering Tree podcast . Please rate

57:51

, review and share this out so we can experience

57:53

the lived adoptee journey together

57:55

. Want to be a guest on our show ? Check

57:57

us out at wanderingtreeadopteecom

58:00

. Come

58:13

share . No need for a book .