0:06

And I wish I could just go up to

0:08

her and say you have nothing to

0:10

be ashamed of , nothing to

0:13

be afraid of . I don't care if we become

0:15

friends or not , but you do not need

0:17

to be filled with shame . What you

0:19

did , there's no shame in it . That's

0:21

where I struggle . So my voice always is at church is let's stop

0:23

shaming those women . That's where I struggle . So my voice always is that church is let's stop shaming

0:26

those women . Let's stop shaming .

0:38

Welcome to Wandering Tree Podcast . I

0:40

am your host , lisa Ann . We are

0:42

an experienced based show focused on

0:45

sharing the journey of adoption , identity

0:48

, life search and reunion

0:50

. Let's begin today's conversation

0:53

with our guest of honor , lori

0:55

Knisley . Welcome to the show . How

0:58

are you today ?

0:59

Oh , doing great . Thank you , lisa

1:01

Ann . Thank you , I'm excited to share my story

1:03

and to have a conversation tonight

1:06

. Yeah

1:23

, I'm looking forward to it as well . Adoptee

1:25

. I was adopted at

1:27

birth in a closed domestic

1:30

adoption . I'm married

1:33

. I have two grown children and

1:36

three grandchildren

1:38

. I've been married for

1:40

39 years . Ironically

1:42

, I was also a teen mom

1:45

myself At 16

1:47

, found myself pregnant , married the

1:49

father , and that my oldest

1:51

child is the result of

1:53

that . So I was as

1:56

an adoptee . I also was faced with

1:58

some of the same decisions

2:00

that my birth mom had to face

2:02

and I made a different decision that

2:06

my birth mom had to face and I made a different decision . But I was born here in Kansas City

2:08

, missouri . Raised here in Kansas City . I have found both of my

2:11

biological sides of the family

2:13

, but I'm not really in reunion

2:16

with either one of my parents . I

2:18

started my search Again . I was

2:20

a closed adoption , adopted through

2:23

Catholic charities , and we know how those

2:25

Catholics like to keep those secrets . Do

2:28

they ever Gosh ? They're really

2:30

good at that and I have always known

2:32

that I was adopted . I was

2:35

. My parents did not keep that from

2:37

me , which is a good thing . Oh

2:39

, important fact , I was raised

2:41

in a family with two biological

2:44

children of my adoptive parents . I

2:46

have an older brother and a younger sister

2:48

. They're nine years apart

2:50

and I'm smack dab in the middle of them . They're

2:52

four and a half years older , four and a half years younger

2:55

. So that always makes it very

2:57

interesting to be raised

2:59

with siblings that are

3:01

genetically related to your

3:04

adoptive parents , which also

3:06

made it challenging because

3:08

my differences were pointed

3:11

out more and were more visible

3:13

to even myself . But I

3:16

started my search for

3:18

my birth mother in

3:20

the early 1990s

3:22

. New Missouri law allowed me to

3:24

request my non-identifying

3:26

information , which meant all

3:29

last names and first names were redacted

3:32

, were removed , but I still had

3:34

birth dates and ages in there

3:37

. But when I received

3:39

that , I can still remember receiving

3:42

that information . I

3:47

can still remember receiving that information . It came

3:49

in the mail and it's two and one fourth pages long and it's essentially

3:51

the intake interview that they had with my birth

3:54

mother . So it gives information

3:56

. It gives identity information such

3:59

as you know , religion

4:01

. Let me see here . It has description

4:03

of the religion , health , education

4:06

, employment and general history

4:08

, health history of both my

4:10

maternal and paternal side

4:13

. Reading that I do remember sitting

4:15

down at my kitchen table and

4:17

just crying and crying

4:19

reading this very

4:21

generic information describing

4:24

what my birth mother looked like , that she

4:26

was in nursing school , describing my

4:28

birth father what he looked like and

4:30

he was in the Coast Guard . But

4:33

it is the first time in my life

4:35

and I was 23

4:38

years old yeah , 23 years

4:40

old at the time and it's the

4:42

first time that I felt like

4:44

I could be a whole person

4:46

, that I was coming into

4:49

focus of who I was

4:51

, who I could be . It gave a little

4:53

bit of a personality description

4:55

of my birth mother , because she had

4:57

grew up with her dad being in the Air

4:59

Force , so she had traveled the world , so

5:02

she was more , she felt she was

5:04

more superior to the other

5:06

girls in the home , and so

5:08

she , she kept herself separate

5:10

. She did not make friends easily

5:12

, which I read that and I was like

5:14

, oh my gosh , you know , I not

5:17

that I related to her , but I

5:19

felt like it was a piece of

5:21

a puzzle that was being

5:23

put into my picture of my life , of who

5:25

I was , and same with my birth

5:28

father , him being in the Coast Guard . He

5:30

was an only child . Because both of my

5:33

children were strong swimmers , I thought

5:35

, well , you've got to be a strong swimmer to be in the Coast

5:37

Guard . Is that where they got

5:39

that from ? I did have more information

5:42

about my birth mother . You

5:44

know she is the oldest of four children

5:46

. Her dad was in the Air Force . It gave

5:48

the ages of her parents , the ages

5:51

of her siblings . Had very little

5:53

information on my birth father

5:55

. He was in the Coast Guard . His parents

5:57

divorced when he was 12 . Knew nothing

5:59

about his mother and his father was

6:02

the CPA approximate age

6:04

which ended up being wrong . So

6:06

very little information there

6:08

.

6:08

We're going to pause right there for a minute . That's

6:11

a lot to unpack in a very short

6:13

time period , and so I want to go back just

6:15

a little bit for the listeners

6:17

, and one of the things I picked up on

6:19

that we will

6:21

also spend a little bit of time , I think , talking

6:23

about further into the conversation . You

6:26

were a teen mother . You

6:28

were also an adoptee . You

6:30

did decide to keep your

6:32

daughter I believe it's your daughter and

6:34

at the ripe

6:36

age of 20 something which

6:39

, for myself , I can't even

6:41

think about those years in that

6:43

context . Right , you are

6:45

also getting information

6:47

about you and

6:49

so , as you're looking

6:52

at this material , how is

6:54

that connecting also for

6:56

you as a person who

6:58

has now had children that are biologically

7:01

yours , and you're looking at this information

7:03

? What are your memories around

7:06

how that was connecting for you at

7:08

the time ?

7:10

There was one key

7:12

information in there that

7:15

my birth father and her had known each other for

7:17

a while . They were engaged to be

7:19

married . Then she found out he was unstable

7:22

, broke off the engagement , then found

7:24

out she was pregnant . She was sent

7:27

to the home here in Kansas City

7:29

, not by her choice . Her

7:31

parents brought her here to

7:33

Kansas City and they said that

7:35

she was very against giving the

7:37

child for adoption

7:39

. But after being at the home for

7:41

a while she changed her mind

7:44

. So what that did to me was knowing

7:47

, when I found out I was pregnant

7:49

, how scared I was

7:51

, how unsure everything was

7:53

. But I had the support

7:55

of my the father of

7:57

my child and his family to

8:01

help me make this choice . It gave me

8:03

a connection with her to

8:06

help me make this choice . It gave me a connection with her . She had to be scared that the whole

8:08

comment also about her staying separate from the girls

8:10

that you know because she was 21

8:13

. She was 21 when she got

8:15

pregnant with me . But it gave me hope

8:17

that she wanted me , that

8:19

she might be looking for me

8:22

, that she loved me , and

8:24

so it gave me confidence that

8:26

I made the right choice to keep my

8:28

daughter , that it wasn't wrong of

8:30

me to keep that , to make that

8:32

choice . So it gave me some confidence

8:34

to continue on . And

8:36

my kids at that time my daughter would have

8:38

been seven , my son would have been

8:41

three .

8:41

Definitely shapes your perspective a little

8:43

bit differently in the conversation

8:46

of adoption and

8:49

whether or not to relinquish or

8:51

to have support , and it's almost

8:53

affirming whether or not there

8:56

should be adoption , which I'm not going to get

8:58

there yet . Really , honing

9:00

in on it isn't

9:02

easy . And here you are many

9:04

years later also talking

9:07

about that slice of

9:09

life and such a critical

9:11

decision . And I

9:13

just picked up off the table of conversation

9:16

here with you that the tipping point

9:18

of that decision was the support you had

9:20

. Yes , yeah , very , and

9:22

I wonder if we sometimes

9:25

forget that part of the conversation

9:27

that it is so hard

9:30

to make that type of a decision and

9:32

whether or not you have a support system

9:34

is paramount to what

9:36

you do . Oh , yeah

9:39

, it's pivotal to

9:41

that . Yeah , I agree , I

9:43

also picked up on that . She went to a home

9:46

. You know in the era that we're talking

9:48

about that wasn't uncommon , and

9:51

so you're

9:53

in the Kansas City Missouri

9:55

area . But was she

9:57

actually in the Kansas City Missouri area

10:00

? She was .

10:01

Not initially , she wasn't . It

10:04

even says at the beginning that

10:06

she was brought here from

10:08

and it doesn't say I have since

10:10

found out she was actually in California

10:13

and she was brought here to

10:15

Kansas City specifically because

10:18

her dad was stationed at Whiteman

10:20

Air Force Base here in Missouri

10:22

. There were two major homes here

10:25

in Missouri that are well known the Willows

10:27

and then St Anthony's Home

10:29

for Infants or Wayward

10:32

Women , and so she

10:34

was brought into . St Anthony's

10:36

Home is where she was kept

10:38

. It was ran by Catholic

10:40

Charities . That home

10:42

just recently was demolished

10:45

. I drove past that home

10:47

twice a day for over

10:50

25 years when

10:52

I worked at a company downtown

10:54

and the way that I went into work I passed

10:56

the home and on the way in and

10:59

on the way home from work major intersection

11:01

I'd sit there at the stoplight and

11:03

I'd look at that building and I was like wonder

11:05

what that building used to be . It looks like

11:08

, you know , like a home and it looks like

11:10

you know a hospital is

11:12

next to it and stuff . And one day

11:14

, through a mutual friend at work

11:16

that was had a lot of history

11:18

, knew a lot of the history of Kansas

11:21

City and had a sister who gave

11:23

a baby up for adoption and we

11:25

were talking about my adoption and I

11:27

said I knew it was St Anthony's

11:29

home . They said , well , you know , that's homes

11:32

on 27th of the sale . I'm like what

11:34

? That's what that building is . It

11:37

just shocked me and

11:39

, like I said , it was just recently this year

11:42

demolished and several

11:44

adoptees were able to go

11:46

into the building . I took pictures

11:48

, walked through it , got a doorknob

11:50

. It was weird and I was

11:52

there with several adoptees

11:54

to walk in and we just stood there trying

11:57

to figure out , because it

11:59

went from St Anthony's Home to Welcome

12:01

Home , which is a recovering

12:04

home for addicts and alcoholics

12:06

, and they built a new facility

12:09

next to it . So we were standing there trying

12:11

to , you know , find out where

12:13

all the rooms were where was the nursery , where

12:15

was the chapel , where were the women

12:18

kept , where was the common room ? And

12:20

we would stand there with our hands on

12:22

the wall and we were like you know well

12:24

, if you could speak to us , what

12:27

would you say , you know , but the

12:29

doors and the door handles

12:32

were doorknobs , were original . So

12:35

I got a partial

12:37

doorknob . Somebody else got a whole doorknob

12:39

. People took pictures , framed pictures

12:42

off the wall and stuff .

12:44

I would have classified that as surreal

12:46

. I don't know how I would have handled

12:48

that type of opportunity . I

12:51

don't even know if I would have taken that type of an

12:53

opportunity as we're talking . Yeah

12:55

, got to tell you , lori , I don't think I would have done it

12:57

. I don't know if I could have done it and I

12:59

don't know right now if I would have done

13:01

it . So , kudos to you for

13:04

taking that step and , you know , making

13:06

some type of a physical connection

13:08

between who you are and your birth and a

13:10

building .

13:20

Yes , yes , it's and it's . I drove by not too long ago and they were taking bricks down and

13:22

stuff . It's taken them a long time to demolish and when it is

13:24

fully demolished , I feel like that

13:26

part of my chapter of

13:29

my life is then like done

13:31

is gone , and when

13:33

us adoptees have very little

13:35

of our history to look back on

13:38

, I think driving by there with that building

13:40

gone is going to affect me more

13:42

than driving by when it was standing

13:44

there . It was a reminder , but

13:47

it was part of my , it

13:49

was a tangible part of my

13:51

past , and now it's gone .

13:53

That part I can relate to in the

13:55

context of you could

13:58

see physically where you were born

14:00

, and I do think there are

14:02

adoptees , myself included , who

14:04

would have liked a little bit of that opportunity

14:07

. I've mentioned it before in

14:09

several episodes . I really thought

14:11

I was going to do more research around this

14:13

and I just have not . I've not

14:15

had the motivation yet , but

14:18

I do call it life gap and there's

14:20

that period of time from whatever

14:22

the birth certificate says was my birth date

14:24

and birth time and weight , what I believe

14:26

to be actually adopted . And then

14:28

, of course , lack of pictures is a

14:31

clear indicator that I didn't live with

14:33

the people that adopted me right out of the

14:35

gate . I believe I've expressed

14:37

before , but I want to repeat

14:39

it , it's about a six-month period

14:42

, clearly of six to

14:44

maybe even a little bit more . The

14:46

first picture I have of myself with

14:48

my adopted parents I'm

14:50

kind of looking like a big , chunky baby

14:52

, so , and I

14:55

was able to stand pretty freely

14:58

. So if you know child , yeah , if you

15:00

know child development , I might've been a little bit older

15:02

even so yeah .

15:04

Yeah , yeah , that would have been closer to

15:06

yeah , between six and nine months , yep

15:09

, oh , my , yeah . Now I

15:11

was fortunate enough that I was

15:13

in my adoptive home 14

15:16

days after my birth . Sadly

15:18

, I was born three days before Christmas

15:20

, so it wasn't until

15:22

after the new year . And as

15:25

I'm looking back through pictures , I

15:27

had to clear out my parents' home and

15:30

you find all these pictures . I realize

15:32

, my first Christmas . I don't

15:35

know where I spent my first

15:37

Christmas , and there

15:39

is a picture of my parents and

15:41

my older brother on December

15:43

25th 1967

15:46

. And I'm not in that picture

15:48

, you know , because I'm not with them yet . I

15:50

was just like , wow , well , who was I

15:52

with ? I didn't get any gifts , or

15:55

did I get gifts ? So you know , that

15:57

is still a big piece of the puzzle

16:00

that is missing . Still

16:05

a big piece of the puzzle that is missing . You know , as you , as we

16:07

adoptees , draw in these pieces of the puzzle , sometimes you think you only have

16:09

one piece missing , but that

16:11

one piece is multiple pieces

16:14

of different sizes . You get a little

16:16

piece of it . Oh , wow , okay , wait

16:18

, no , that's . There's more to

16:20

that , I thought , finding my birth

16:22

mother . Oh , I have answers . No

16:24

, where's my first Christmas . Where's

16:26

my first Christmas picture ?

16:28

I I may never know yeah

16:30

, I've always expressed that too , lori

16:32

, and it's a little unsettling and

16:35

it's very difficult , even in my family

16:37

today and with my

16:39

husband , for that

16:41

conversation to be held where I am

16:44

expressing you know , it's just

16:46

odd , it just feels odd all

16:48

the time . I do think about it more

16:50

than I maybe should . That's the bottom

16:52

line , right , and it's hard to explain

16:55

to him repetitively

16:57

, which I probably should just give that

16:59

up , that it just makes

17:01

me , even at this age , feel

17:04

a little bit off .

17:05

Yes , and it is hard to express to

17:07

people that I call birthright

17:09

privileged . I even say that to my own

17:11

kids . I said you guys are birthright

17:14

privileged because you

17:16

know everything from your birth . I

17:18

can tell you . You know , kirsten , when I was carrying

17:21

you sick all nine months , and Derek

17:24

, when I carried you , you separated my left

17:26

hip . I could barely walk . I can talk

17:28

about when I went into labor , what it was

17:30

like , and the first thing

17:32

that I said about them when I saw them

17:34

. You know , my daughter has this big bottom lip

17:36

she inherited from her father and that's the

17:39

first thing we noticed . Son come out

17:41

looking like a fighter , he just looked mean

17:43

from the beginning . And us

17:45

adoptees , we are

17:47

missing that part of our birth

17:49

story , of our beginning that

17:52

helps us when

17:54

people know that . That helps them

17:56

in their identity development

17:58

, in their development to be

18:00

a human human because you have a story

18:03

there . Yeah , you know , I was this way from

18:05

birth .

18:05

Well , you had some findings speaking of

18:07

stories , and you learned

18:09

something about your maternal

18:12

side that once you learned

18:14

it , you're like oh , that makes total sense

18:16

, I can connect with that . Tell

18:19

us a little bit about that , if you would

18:21

not mind .

18:22

Ironically , I found out who my birth father

18:24

was before I found my birth mother

18:26

and did that through DNA

18:29

, 23andme and Ancestry

18:31

kind of a combination of the two but

18:34

it was through a second cousin and

18:36

we're a true second cousin . Our

18:38

grandparents are siblings

18:41

and she reached out to me

18:43

because she did DNA and she's more

18:45

related through my grandma and

18:47

I looked at her family tree , thought

18:50

, oh , this is on my birth mother's

18:52

side and I gave her all the information

18:54

on my birth mother's side and she came back

18:56

. She goes no , no , no , that's you know

18:59

. I thought her grandma's younger sister

19:01

was my grandmother

19:04

or my maternal

19:07

grandmother , but it wasn't . She

19:09

goes we , you know , it's got to be something else . So

19:11

I gave her all my birth father's information

19:13

, which was very little . She came back a couple

19:15

days later and says I know who your

19:17

birth father is and his

19:20

mother was

19:22

her grandma's sister , older

19:24

sister . What is so great about that

19:26

is that her grandma Gertrude

19:28

and then her great aunt

19:30

Lillian , which is the

19:32

younger sister , were professional

19:35

storytellers in Philadelphia

19:38

, which I found just

19:40

exciting . Number one , the second

19:43

cousin , said that she grew up grandma

19:45

telling stories so she

19:48

then started having coffees

19:50

. When she became an adult would go down

19:52

and have coffee with her grandma and she recorded

19:54

all these stories of the family

19:56

and then she recorded them , transcribed

19:59

them , put them in a book , a self-published

20:01

book . That fact that her grandma

20:04

and great aunt were professional storytellers

20:07

really resonated with me . I

20:09

have been saying since I was in middle school

20:11

that everyone , your

20:13

life , is nothing but a collection of

20:15

stories , and it's how you

20:18

tell that story and whether or not

20:20

it is interesting . There are people who are good at telling stories

20:22

and there are people who are good at telling stories and there are people

20:24

who are horrible at telling stories . I

20:26

have always loved telling stories

20:28

. I do not have a fear of

20:30

speaking in public and

20:33

I feel like every experience I have

20:35

I can turn it into a story and

20:37

then I want to tell it . I

20:39

love giving speeches , and

20:42

so when I heard that that was

20:44

another piece that connected

20:47

me , that made me , helped me with

20:49

my identity . I'm a storyteller . I'm

20:51

not just like to talk , I'm

20:53

a storyteller . I come from a family

20:56

of storytellers . You know I'm starting

20:58

to fill a hole again . That little hole is

21:00

filling up with puzzle pieces

21:02

.

21:02

Yeah , well , and that's very cool to

21:05

have that information

21:07

and to say I feel

21:09

like I represent that you know so

21:11

very , very , very nice

21:13

for you . Well , we've mentioned a little

21:15

bit about identity through this conversation

21:18

and I have spent

21:20

a calendar year researching

21:22

, studying , trying to

21:24

navigate through that topic

21:26

. It's not an easy one to

21:29

navigate . There are many pieces

21:31

. I'll use your puzzle analogy to

21:34

how we think about ourselves . There

21:37

is personality . There is

21:40

a component of how we

21:42

feel about ourselves . There's

21:45

a component about how we feel

21:47

people perceive us . Really

21:49

broad brushing , there is

21:51

also the component of the labels

21:53

that we use for ourselves and

21:55

others use on us as well . So

21:58

, we started out , obviously , with this

22:00

conversation , and why you're here is you're an adoptee

22:03

, so that is a component of your identity

22:05

. Yeah , yeah , we've talked about

22:07

you are married , so that

22:09

wife label is a part of

22:11

your identity as well . Yeah

22:14

, we spoke about siblings

22:17

, and you are a sibling

22:19

and a daughter to

22:21

multiple families . You are a sibling

22:23

and a daughter to multiple families . You are also a former

22:25

teen mother . That's

22:28

, I think , a good way to kind of try to couch

22:30

that a little bit , desensitize it in

22:32

my way . Yes , how

22:34

many more labels do you think you

22:37

, lori , are going to feel comfortable with

22:39

? Is there a limit ? Do you care , or

22:41

do you just collect these

22:44

pieces because they are part of

22:46

the puzzle ?

22:47

Excellent question because I

22:49

did a Sunday school lesson

22:51

with my teen high

22:53

school Sunday school class about

22:55

identity and personality

22:58

and I put

23:00

together this little graph . I wanted them

23:02

to understand what are

23:04

their identities . Identity encompasses

23:07

everything that helps us

23:09

fit into society , into our

23:11

family . It helps us understand

23:14

our purpose , what we believe and stand

23:16

for , and tonight I

23:18

was just looking at it and I have 27

23:21

different identities . Actually

23:23

, I started out with 25 and looked at

23:25

it . Oh , I need to add this and I need

23:28

to add that , and I do believe our identity

23:30

got my degree in psychology and

23:33

you know we discuss identity

23:36

, personality and such Identity

23:38

can continue to change and grow

23:41

as we mature , because we do take

23:43

on more identities as

23:45

we get married , as we have children . I'm

23:47

a grandmother , which is probably the

23:50

best label that I love being a grandma . I

23:53

worked for a company and Hallmark

23:56

cards for years and you were a Hallmarker

23:58

. That was part of your identity

24:00

a Hallmarker . Well

24:02

, I no longer work for hallmark . That's a

24:04

former title , being a

24:06

teen mom . It's funny . I

24:08

don't put a teen mom as a

24:11

former , I'm like I am a teen

24:13

mom , I embrace it . This is

24:15

what I look like . Identities

24:17

can stick with us and they can change

24:20

and grow as we do . My

24:23

son was a Marine for eight years and if

24:25

you have anyone in the military , you're , you

24:27

know , used to be a sailor , used

24:30

to be a soldier , but a Marine is always

24:32

a Marine . Once a Marine , always

24:34

Marine . Yeah , you know that's . And

24:36

so I am always a Marine mom

24:39

. That's another identity

24:41

and I

24:43

have a little analogy

24:45

here . I hope I can explain

24:47

it well enough . It has to do with the butterfly

24:50

. We are all born a caterpillar

24:52

, adopting , non-adopting . We're all a caterpillar

24:57

, their

25:01

genetics . They transform

25:03

into a butterfly sooner and

25:05

easier than us adoptees

25:07

or those of us who were raised

25:10

in a genetically influenced environment that

25:12

did not match our genetics

25:14

. So when they transform as

25:16

they mature and they become

25:19

the people that they were created to be

25:21

, they become that butterfly . It

25:23

is celebrated . It is not hidden

25:26

, it is expected , they're

25:28

not scared . But us adoptees we

25:31

don't know how to transform like that because

25:33

we have no genetic mirroring

25:35

and it's a little scary , so

25:37

we're a little bit slower to let our

25:39

wings come out and become butterflies

25:42

. Our identity labels are

25:44

influenced by our environment

25:46

and when the genetic environment

25:49

matches us it feels more

25:51

comfortable and we're allowed to do

25:53

that . Adoptees , we don't feel comfortable

25:55

, so becoming a butterfly is kind

25:57

of scary to us

26:00

. History

26:02

in finding our biological

26:04

parents such as me

26:06

, finding that my father's

26:09

grandmother's side or his

26:11

mom's side are professional storytellers

26:14

, my wings popped out and I

26:16

become the beautiful butterfly

26:18

that I've always been , was

26:20

made to be . When we find

26:23

our birth families , adoptees

26:25

are a lot of times told you've

26:27

changed , you're a different person

26:29

, and it's because we've been hiding

26:32

. The people who've known us for

26:34

years are kind of like

26:46

you're a different person . No , I'm the same

26:49

person . I'm just finally being able

26:51

to express who I was

26:53

meant to be .

26:54

Yeah , that's a great . That's a great depiction

26:56

and a very well painted

26:59

picture of how we move

27:02

through that entire

27:04

conversation of identity . I like that

27:06

. Move

27:10

through that entire conversation of identity . I like that , and I also liked just

27:12

the acknowledgement of 27 different labels

27:14

. I'm using the term label because I

27:16

definitely don't want to , you

27:19

know , superimpose my thoughts of what

27:21

that means , but wow

27:23

, and I wonder if we took

27:25

time and we're reflecting

27:28

. That's one angle . I do talk about self-assessment

27:31

, and , in my

27:33

own rights , I do reflect

27:35

. I am a huge reflector , always

27:38

looking at what I did or could have done

27:40

differently , because I'm also an overthinker

27:43

, and I know that , and that's an identity

27:45

as well . Overthinker is part

27:47

of my identity , and people pleaser

27:50

and all of those along with

27:52

that . Where I'm going with

27:54

that , though , is it's nice to hear

27:56

you affirm for me

27:58

in our conversation

28:00

. It is a very large bucket

28:03

that can continue

28:05

to change , and there

28:07

might be some that have the past tense and

28:10

the present tense , and that implies future

28:12

tense .

28:13

Very much so .

28:14

Well , one of the topics that

28:16

you and I agreed we wanted to touch on is

28:19

spirituality and your faith , and

28:21

we purposely decided to

28:23

go here . Yes , because

28:27

there is a lot around

28:29

that topic aside

28:32

from adoption Then you put

28:34

in adoption and

28:36

because we are technically from

28:38

the same basic era

28:40

generation there is a boatload

28:43

around that term religion

28:46

and faith and adoptees

28:48

. You have said you

28:50

know , moments ago , Catholic Charities

28:53

. What I find very interesting

28:55

in getting to know you , Lori , is

28:57

that you do have a

28:59

very strong faith and

29:02

you know Catholic Charities

29:04

had something to do with you and

29:06

you know Catholic Charities had something to do

29:09

with you . And

29:15

so how have you , as you and all those identities we just talked about , how are you kind of

29:17

utilizing your faith and your belief system

29:19

to ground you and why do you find

29:21

that's important ?

29:23

Mm , hmm , oh , it is . That's

29:31

important . Oh , it is . Yes , one of my identities is Christian and identity is talked a lot in

29:33

the Christian faith and because of Catholic charities and

29:35

my adoption and this

29:37

shame that so many

29:39

religions adoption

29:42

is a paradox . We all know that Religion

29:45

shames the birth mother

29:47

for having

29:49

sexual relationships out

29:52

of marriage . Therefore , you are

29:54

not smart enough , rich enough

29:56

, old enough to be a mom , not clean

29:58

enough to be a mom . Therefore

30:00

, you cannot keep

30:02

this child . Cannot

30:10

keep this child , but at the same time , adopting that child is nothing but God ordained and perfect

30:12

and 100% and holy and happiness . It's

30:14

such a paradox right there , because

30:17

you've got to convince one mother , one

30:19

woman , that she cannot be a mother

30:21

in order for another one , for

30:23

someone else , to be a mother , and

30:26

that is so hard . I've sat through so many

30:28

sermons because

30:30

the narrative in Christianity

30:33

is that an earthly

30:36

adoption is

30:39

the same as a spiritual adoption , because

30:41

we are all adopted

30:43

into God's family . It's

30:46

in Romans and Ephesians

30:48

God is our father . When

30:50

we give our life over to Christ , we

30:52

are adopted into his family , and so

30:55

they're like earthly adoption is the

30:57

same way , but it's not . It's

30:59

different , and the key differences

31:01

between spiritual adoption and

31:04

earthly adoption is that spiritual

31:06

adoption is a choice . Earthly

31:09

adoption is not a choice . It

31:12

is not a choice at all for the

31:14

adoptee and for most birth

31:16

mothers that is not their choice either

31:18

, even though they were convinced it

31:21

was their choice , it wasn't . Spiritual

31:24

adoption is about saving

31:26

us from our past life

31:28

, but earthly adoption

31:30

what is it saving us from Now

31:32

? In some cases , yes , you are

31:34

saving a child from a horrific family

31:37

life , but still it's not saving

31:40

us from anything . Spiritual adoption

31:42

detaches our

31:44

past life , our sinful

31:47

life , from our new life

31:49

, and our new life is a blessing . However

31:52

and this is the key our past

31:54

life is never wiped from our

31:56

memory . We do not lose

31:58

our past life , it's just

32:00

detached from us . But

32:03

in earthly adoption , our

32:05

past life , our history , our

32:07

heritage is wiped

32:09

clean , it is sealed , it

32:12

is treated with shame . It's not

32:14

just detached from us , it is thrown

32:16

away .

32:17

I love the way that you have explained

32:19

that and , honestly , for

32:21

a bit , when we

32:23

were prepping and we agreed to

32:25

talk about this post , that preparatory

32:27

discussion , I had some

32:29

second thoughts . I really did and

32:32

I'm going to be really direct with my

32:34

listeners . I had second

32:36

thoughts because I know it's such a touchy

32:39

subject . But what I really liked

32:41

about it in retrospect and

32:43

I came to I'm still going to do it we said

32:45

we wanted to talk about it , we're going to do it . Here's what I myself came to in retrospect and I came to I'm still going to do it . We said we wanted to talk about it , we're going

32:47

to do it . Here's what I myself

32:50

came to in retrospect . In that entire

32:52

dialogue , you not one time

32:54

actually set aside

32:57

the pain as if it was acceptable

33:00

due to a religion , a

33:02

belief system , a faith or

33:05

a connection of spirituality

33:07

. You didn't do that and I really

33:10

would just wish for others

33:12

in general that they

33:14

could have an opportunity

33:16

to hear adoptees who

33:18

are in your space of

33:21

that thought process and go oh

33:24

, non-adoptees

33:26

and adoptees alike , just go

33:28

oh . I mean it's just such a

33:30

really well said point

33:32

of view . So thank you .

33:35

You're welcome . You're welcome and

33:37

you know with them , with

33:39

the Christian faith . Anytime

33:42

I would talk about being . You

33:44

know like I struggle with identity

33:46

, because I have no generic

33:48

mirroring when the comment

33:51

is said to me , but your identity is in

33:53

Christ , where

33:55

I always say , even though I

33:57

struggle with identity , because no

33:59

matter how good or

34:01

how bad a daughter

34:03

, a wife , a coworker , a friend , a cousin

34:06

, you know I can list all of those identities

34:08

that I am , whether I'm successful

34:11

or a failure at those , my

34:13

self-worth and my value

34:15

is based on

34:17

. I'm a child of God and

34:19

because I'm a child of God I will

34:22

always have self-worth and

34:24

value . But it still doesn't

34:26

always answer the identity

34:28

question . Being able to know that I come

34:31

from a family of possible strong

34:33

swimmers and storytellers

34:35

, I then have even more confidence

34:37

and I feel

34:39

more like who God meant

34:42

for me to be .

34:43

I'm going to touch on that a little bit because I get

34:46

where you're coming from . I think I shared this

34:48

with you when we were prepping . There

34:51

are so many times in

34:53

my life where I have said

34:55

, god , seriously

34:58

, like , what lesson have I not

35:00

learned ? If I believe my destiny

35:03

is paved for me

35:05

, it's all part of a plan

35:07

I got to tell you as a sinful

35:10

human walking the earth , I

35:12

have . I've got questions and

35:14

I don't lie about it . Right , I

35:17

don't really joke about it , but sometimes

35:19

it sounds like I'm joking , but I intend

35:21

to stand there and go . I didn't get something

35:24

. And really , seriously

35:26

, what was I there for ? Because I'd like

35:28

to see the . Can we play the tape back a little

35:30

bit ? That day , yeah , that sucked , let's

35:34

go , keep going . I know I'm not supposed to question

35:36

you . I didn't walk the earth for

35:38

X number of decades . I still have

35:40

questions . Remember that day ? It

35:42

was beyond sucky . Oh , let's go back to that

35:44

very first day . It sucked so

35:46

bad I didn't even know how bad it sucked

35:49

, you know ?

35:50

Oh oh , I believe

35:52

. Oh no , I I'm with you , right

35:54

there At least , and because I'm

35:56

even now , I question , even today

35:59

what is the purpose ? Why

36:01

are you sending me ? What am I supposed

36:03

to learn and why am I being so

36:05

hardheaded about it ? I mean , I

36:07

can , I can look back , because I've

36:09

spent so much time , just like you , being

36:12

reflective on

36:14

my adoption story that

36:17

there's other things in my life . When , when

36:20

Hallmark cut me after 26

36:22

years , that was devastating and

36:24

I was like why this was supposed

36:27

to be my time . You know , I graduated

36:29

college . 10 weeks after I graduated

36:32

college , lost my job , finally

36:34

going to have the money and have the time

36:36

. And now I'm like , what

36:38

was the purpose ? I have a lot of questions too

36:40

. Yeah , Because I

36:44

do still have the question of and

36:46

this is where even the

36:48

Christian faith I battle with Because

36:52

my mother I've reached . I found

36:54

her through getting my birth certificate reached

36:56

out to her , and she has

36:59

made it very clear through another

37:01

family member that she does not want

37:03

any communication with me . Why

37:05

is that member that she does

37:08

not want any communication with me ? Why is that ? Why she

37:10

carries though so

37:17

much shame and embarrassment that even 50 , some odd years later she can't face it . She's

37:19

buried it so deep and I wish I could just go up to her and say you

37:22

have nothing to be ashamed

37:24

of , nothing to

37:26

be afraid of . I don't care if we become

37:29

friends or not , but you do not need

37:31

to be filled with shame . What

37:33

you did , there's no shame in

37:35

. That's where I struggle . So my

37:37

voice always is that church is

37:39

let's stop shaming those women . Let's

37:42

stop shaming them .

37:43

Yeah , and I think that fits into your advocacy

37:46

as well and just speaking out

37:48

and telling your story . Thank you for sharing

37:50

a little bit about that . I do

37:52

again want to acknowledge that type

37:54

of a topic is hard in the adoptee

37:56

community to really explore

37:59

and I am thankful we were

38:01

willing to jump in .

38:02

Yes , thank you for giving me that opportunity . Thank you , willing

38:05

to jump in .

38:05

Yes , thank you for giving me that opportunity

38:07

. Thank you , yeah , no problem Anytime

38:13

. Let's take a turn here a little bit . Talk about advocacy , talk about the

38:15

adoptee community and your connection in that , and I just want to acknowledge

38:17

you and I met at a conference last

38:19

year .

38:20

It was my second conference and

38:24

how I got involved

38:26

in the advocacy . Part of it

38:28

was the Missouri law

38:30

that opened up original

38:32

birth certificates to adoptees

38:35

. I joined Facebook

38:37

and other things to help find my birth

38:39

mother and found out about this group

38:41

, and most of those people were

38:43

part of what they called the Adoption Army

38:46

, which went down to Jefferson City

38:48

to advocate to open

38:50

the birth certificates

38:52

original birth certificate support group . It is

38:54

a peer-led support group . I'm

38:56

just there to facilitate

38:58

, to have a place for people to

39:00

meet . I share information that

39:03

I receive . I was scheduled to

39:05

go to the NAAP

39:08

it was actually known as Indiana

39:10

Adoption Network at that time

39:12

in 2020 , in March 2020

39:14

, to go to their conference . And

39:17

then COVID hit and they went

39:19

online with happy hour , which

39:21

to me , was like the best thing that

39:23

ever happened , because through these

39:25

weekly Friday night happy hours

39:28

, I learned

39:30

that I was not the only

39:32

adoptee that felt the way that I did

39:34

Heard so many stories

39:36

of adoptees , of NPEs

39:40

, birth mothers , adoptive mothers

39:43

, birth fathers , adoptive fathers

39:45

, mothers

39:48

, adoptive mothers , birth fathers , adoptive fathers , and so their conference , you know , kept getting

39:50

postponed until 2021 . So that was the first conference

39:52

I went to met so many people

39:54

and then they joined

39:57

with right to know , had untangling

39:59

your roots and and I was I was

40:01

like this is what I want to do . I want to

40:03

get up and I want to share my story , talk to

40:05

people and encourage people , like so

40:07

many have me , and went

40:10

to this conference , which was awesome

40:12

. I think the combination of the

40:14

two groups was just

40:16

wonderful . Met you , met a lot

40:18

of people . My support

40:20

group , my

40:22

support network , is just expanding

40:24

and so through that , I'm

40:27

able to get more information that helps my

40:29

support group . Here I share

40:31

my story . I was on another

40:34

podcast back in 2019

40:37

, I believe it's called Cut

40:39

Off Jeans .

40:41

Oh , yes , yes , I don't talk about

40:43

that one as often , but I do listen to that

40:45

one and I have no problem with people talking

40:47

about other podcasts . On this podcast , I

40:50

100% support every

40:52

person out there who's willing to

40:54

do something like this and talk , and

40:57

there are more adoptees than even

40:59

the current volume of podcasters can

41:01

cover .

41:02

See , hers is part storytelling

41:04

and information on how to

41:06

search and it helped me during my search

41:09

. Some things to do , some things . My

41:11

initial story is three

41:13

episodes and then I have an update

41:15

about a year later and everything

41:17

and how would you like to

41:19

?

41:20

close out our conversation today , what's

41:27

really important for you to get across

41:30

to our community of adoptees

41:32

and non-adoptees , as

41:35

we say thank you and goodbye

41:37

yeah .

41:39

You know , telling

41:41

our stories as we know as adoptees

41:43

and really in any community

41:45

group , telling your story is very

41:48

, very important . That's one step , but

41:50

we all know that communication

41:52

is a two-way street and very important

41:55

, and right now I have a quote up in my office

41:57

that says the problem with communication

42:00

is that we listen to

42:02

respond instead

42:04

of listening to understand

42:06

. So I would ask anyone

42:09

who is listening to anyone's stories

42:11

adoptees , birth

42:13

mothers , adoptive parents that you

42:15

listen , not to respond , but

42:18

listen to learn and understand

42:20

.

42:21

Very well said . Well

42:23

, I want to thank you again for spending

42:25

time with us . It has been

42:27

a pleasure to get to know you through

42:29

multiple engagements . Now , you

42:32

are always welcome to return here

42:34

. Thank you again , just for being

42:37

part of our community .

42:38

Well , I cannot thank you enough for

42:40

doing what you do and for inviting

42:43

me . Thank you so

42:45

much , and it has been a complete

42:47

pleasure . I've had so much fun talking

42:49

with you .

42:50

Likewise , Likewise , thank you

42:52

for listening to today's episode of Wandering Tree

42:54

Podcast . Please rate , review and

42:56

share this out so we can experience

42:59

the lived adopted journey together

43:01

. Want to be a guest on our show ? Check us

43:03

out at .