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with code PODCAST. You're

0:15

listening to a podcast from Washington Post Live,

0:17

bringing the newsroom to you live. Hello

0:21

and welcome to Washington Post Live. I'm

0:23

David J. Lynch, Global Economics Correspondent here

0:25

at The Post. Today I'm

0:28

joined by John Porcari, President Biden's

0:30

former port envoy, and also

0:32

a former Maryland State Department

0:34

of Transportation head. We'll

0:36

be talking about the economic and

0:39

supply chain implications of the recent

0:41

collapse of Baltimore's Francis Scott Key

0:43

Bridge. John, welcome to the program. Thank

0:46

you, David. It's

0:48

good to have you with us. I can't think

0:50

of a better guest, given your background, to discuss

0:53

the topic of the day. Let's

0:55

start with some basics. With

0:57

the port now cut off

1:00

from its normal operations by

1:02

the ruined bridge that's lying across

1:05

the main channel leading to the

1:07

ocean, that's a

1:10

big hit to the regional economy, certainly

1:12

to the port itself. How

1:14

economically significant is the port of

1:16

Baltimore? What products are

1:19

going to be affected or are

1:21

already affected? Well,

1:23

first, David, we should remember that there

1:25

were some victims here and that this

1:28

was a true tragedy for

1:30

those families. The impact

1:33

for the port of Baltimore, for the region, and

1:35

for the nation is

1:37

actually pretty substantial.

1:40

Just to set the stage a little bit, the port of

1:42

Baltimore is more than 300 years

1:45

old. It was established by the colonial legislature in

1:47

1706. It has grown with the

1:51

nation. Today, as

1:53

you point out, is the number one

1:55

port in the nation for what's called

1:57

roll on, roll off cargos. These are

1:59

auto-proliferation. Will be else construction machinery

2:01

bomb the helicopters. Everything that you

2:03

can imagine that is a big

2:05

bulky end of high value so

2:07

that's one or immediate impact and

2:09

we could talk a little bit

2:12

about some the specific aspects of

2:14

that are. It is also up

2:16

on container port ah that is

2:18

moving more than one point, nearly

2:20

one point one million or to

2:22

use twenty four equivalent units every

2:24

year or so. It's important for

2:26

the local, regional and national market

2:28

or it in that sense. As

2:30

well on and in terms

2:32

of economic impact. Locally

2:35

regionally a nationally thought the Sistine

2:37

Thousand direct employees for the Paul

2:39

the Port about more complex the

2:41

public and private terminals. Ah, there's

2:44

about one hundred and forty thousand

2:46

jobs Overall, it is by far

2:48

the largest source of good paying

2:51

family supporting blue collar jobs in

2:53

the state of Maryland. The same

2:55

is true in region throughout the

2:58

country, reaching through solve the railroad

3:00

for example, Csx Railroad out to

3:02

Ohio and Pennsylvania, Michigan, Illinois, In

3:05

other states. Have

3:07

this situation in Baltimore Tom's was.

3:09

global supply chains already being buffeted

3:12

by drought in the Panama Canal.

3:14

Are armed attacks on shipping going

3:16

through the the red seeds, a

3:19

lingering effects of the war in

3:21

Ukraine. How much

3:23

slack is there ah globally

3:26

in the system and is

3:28

there are not to adequately

3:30

absorbs Baltimore's of work as

3:32

it spills out into alternative

3:35

venues. Maybe the

3:37

best way to think about global maritime

3:39

trade is it's a system of systems.

3:41

It's us up a private sector. Lead

3:45

and operated farm operating all over

3:47

the world. That essentially has

3:49

very little redundancy and resiliency. We

3:51

found that out the hard way

3:54

or during the pandemic when all

3:56

of us shifted our consumer buying

3:58

patterns. just enough to

4:01

upset the global supply chain and the

4:05

kind of capacity needs for

4:08

the personal spending that came during

4:10

the pandemic were not easy to accommodate.

4:13

And so as you

4:15

point out, both of the major canal

4:18

transit points in the world, Suez and

4:20

Panama, are both under stress right

4:23

now for different reasons. But

4:27

the impact overall has been

4:30

substantial on the

4:33

global supply system. With

4:36

the loss in the short term of the Port

4:38

of Baltimore, even more

4:40

of that flexibility is gone. It's

4:42

important to think a little bit about

4:44

how the supply chain works. So in

4:47

the Far East right now, for example,

4:49

there are ships that are loading that

4:52

are 84 days or more away from

4:54

coming to the Port of Baltimore. They

4:56

might stop at multiple other stops. If

4:59

it's a container ship, it's carrying thousands of

5:01

containers. The stowage plan, the

5:03

way that the software that determines where

5:05

each box goes on that ship, are

5:07

based on their port calls. Those

5:10

have to be modified and

5:12

changed. The port calls themselves,

5:14

the sequence of that vessel

5:16

string, might actually have to be changed as part of

5:18

it. So those are some

5:20

of the immediate adjustments that need

5:23

to be made. Longer

5:25

term adjustments for the

5:27

customers, for both imports and exports, it

5:29

may take a little bit more time. So in

5:32

another example, John

5:34

Deere farm machinery or construction equipment going

5:36

out of the Port of Baltimore to

5:38

customers in Europe, not

5:40

only has to be

5:43

loaded on a roll-on, roll-off ship at

5:45

an alternative port in the short term,

5:47

it has to arrive at the right

5:49

port in Europe at the right time.

5:52

Now these global supply chains have really

5:54

built up over the

5:56

last several decades and

5:58

prioritized efficiency in the low cost

6:01

over just about everything else. The last four

6:03

years, as you know, has seen

6:06

one headache after another, first the

6:08

pandemic, then the

6:10

war, isolated

6:13

problems in various ports and

6:16

bottlenecks. What lessons did

6:18

you take away from your

6:20

experience working in the White House to try and sort out

6:22

some of those problems in 2021 and 2022? And how much

6:25

of a rethinking of the global

6:30

supply chain approach do

6:32

you think we might be facing at this point?

6:35

There's been some important lessons

6:37

learned from the pandemic and

6:40

the supply chain issues that

6:43

it caused. And a

6:45

lot of important work has actually come out of

6:47

that. So, for example, making

6:50

sure that there's more capacity

6:52

in the system. It's an interdependent

6:54

worldwide system. The global economy that

6:57

we have today is

6:59

built on the foundation

7:01

of maritime trade that's

7:03

low cost, predictable and efficient.

7:06

And it's in

7:08

real dollar terms, it's gotten more efficient

7:11

every year. One of the things that

7:14

we learned the hard way is

7:16

that the supply

7:19

chain itself is a series of blind handoffs from

7:21

one private sector user,

7:24

like the global carriers to

7:26

railroads to trucking companies and

7:29

others. And having

7:32

better data and better visibility

7:35

was one of the important lessons that we learned. At

7:37

least as important as some of the brick and mortar

7:39

investments is the data

7:41

information exchange that has been set

7:43

up as a result of the

7:47

lessons that we learned. Where you have

7:50

private companies voluntarily sharing

7:52

data to get a sense of that

7:54

system of systems. How that supply chain

7:56

actually works throughout the

7:58

world. and leads

8:01

to the ability to actually see around

8:03

the corner a little bit and see

8:06

some of the shortages developing before their

8:08

crisis. Now

8:10

before the port can resume

8:12

normal operations, the ruins

8:14

of the bridge and the

8:17

dolly and the container ship that crashed into it

8:19

will have to be cut

8:21

up and moved out of the way. And

8:23

that's going to be a heck of a

8:26

job. There's something like 764 tons

8:29

of hazardous materials still

8:31

on that vessel. Some

8:34

of the wreckage of the concrete and

8:36

the steel from the bridge is

8:38

under 50 feet of often very

8:40

murky water. How

8:43

much of a project

8:46

are the teams, the Navy teams and the

8:49

others, the Army Corps of Engineers, the private

8:51

sector divers who are going to be involved

8:53

in this? How much

8:55

of an operation is this? How long do

8:57

you expect it to take? How dangerous will

9:00

it be? It's

9:02

an extraordinary challenge and there

9:05

have been previous disruptions to

9:07

the national transportation system and

9:10

from for example the I-34W bridge

9:13

collapse in Minneapolis and I-95

9:16

in Philadelphia more recently. Those

9:19

frankly pale in comparison to this

9:21

challenge. This will

9:25

require extraordinary collaboration. The

9:28

good news is that from

9:30

the very beginning and from the very top,

9:33

from President Biden directly, there's

9:37

been a response that we collectively

9:39

will do whatever it takes. We'll

9:42

do it together and we

9:45

will roll up our sleeves and get it done. You're

9:47

seeing that happen right now in the

9:50

extraordinary federal-state cooperation led

9:54

at the state level by Governor Moore who, like

9:56

President Biden, understands that you lead from the front,

9:59

not the back. and has been

10:01

upfront in addressing this. These

10:04

are agencies that work together to

10:08

respond to national emergencies, have

10:10

never had a challenge quite like this though. And

10:13

the work that they are doing together is

10:16

literally plowing new ground in terms of

10:18

what it takes for the

10:20

recovery phase of this operation. I'm

10:23

very encouraged by the level

10:26

of coordination, and

10:29

commitment of resources, whatever's needed at

10:31

the state and federal level. That

10:34

was as a first step officials,

10:37

just in the last 24 or 48 hours, have

10:40

opened up a temporary channel just

10:43

north of the disaster site itself.

10:46

That's good news of course, but the depth

10:48

of the channel is limited to just 11

10:50

feet, as opposed to

10:52

the 50 foot draft that these big

10:54

container ships need. So this is a

10:56

partial step. Help

10:59

us understand what can get through there.

11:01

I assume we're talking about barging in

11:04

some cargo. What

11:07

would you anticipate would be

11:10

worth the effort to bring in that way?

11:12

And I assume that's just gonna be

11:15

a tiny percentage of what the port

11:17

normally does on a given workday. That's

11:20

right, David. Well, first and foremost, the

11:23

temporary channel allows the

11:25

workboats, the cranes,

11:28

the different maritime

11:30

vessels that are engaged in the recovery

11:32

effort to move around more easily. It

11:35

will also hopefully allow

11:37

for some limited barge movement, where

11:39

for example, containers that aren't moving

11:42

by truck or train right now from the

11:44

land side of the Port of Baltimore will

11:47

be able to be barred. But

11:50

it's important to point out that this

11:52

is at best a limited restoration

11:55

of some of the Maritime

11:58

Commerce Park. It's primarily... going

12:00

to have an immediate benefit for

12:02

the first responders actually doing

12:05

the recovery work on the

12:07

site. If you look at the

12:09

stages of recovery after that, restoring

12:14

the shipping channel itself at a 50-foot depth for

12:16

the passage of at least one vessel, you don't

12:18

have to have two vessels passing each other initially,

12:22

will be ultimately what's

12:24

needed to recover the

12:26

port portion of it. It's

12:29

worth pointing out that getting

12:32

the original 50-foot depth of

12:35

the channel and the berths at the container

12:37

terminal was a decade-long

12:39

effort by a number

12:41

of people at the federal and state level. This

12:44

is obviously an emergency.

12:46

It'll be handled and

12:48

is operating under an emergency

12:51

basis, but

12:54

this is a massive undertaking that is going to

12:56

take a while. While

12:59

people are throwing around timeframes for

13:01

the removal of the debris, for example, I

13:04

think it's important to state that the unknowns

13:06

are going to drive that timing at this

13:09

point and we'll know

13:11

more as we get along with it. I

13:14

was up in Baltimore on

13:16

Friday talking to freight and

13:18

logistics specialists. You're quite correct.

13:22

There's no definitive timeline for this

13:24

yet. I've heard estimates from a

13:27

month up to six months

13:29

before we'll have full

13:32

restoration of normal shipping there. What's

13:34

your take on it? It

13:38

could certainly be that

13:40

timeframe. It could be longer. There is

13:42

a will and a determination

13:44

to do it as quickly as you can safely

13:46

do it. I think

13:50

that the joint efforts are off to a

13:52

great head start given how

13:54

well everyone is working together, given

13:57

the commitment of resources.

14:00

And we'll have to

14:02

see how it goes at this point. But

14:04

again, there are some real unknowns here. Just to give

14:06

you a sense of what the channel

14:09

is like if you're a diver out there, if you're

14:11

lucky, you can see a few feet in front of

14:13

your face. It's very

14:15

cold. You have strong

14:18

currents, you have tidal changes, and

14:21

you have no idea what debris might be a

14:24

foot or two in front of you. So there are some

14:26

real challenges, and this has to be

14:28

done in a safe, methodical, but

14:30

relentless way. Yeah,

14:33

it sounds like a heck of a job. So

14:36

for the shippers who normally would

14:38

be bringing cargo in and sending

14:40

cargo out through that port, they

14:42

obviously are making alternative

14:44

arrangements to come in from Norfolk,

14:47

perhaps, New York, New Jersey, elsewhere.

14:51

How much of that business that would

14:54

have come to Baltimore and

14:56

then migrates away somewhere

14:58

else, perhaps temporarily, how

15:00

much of that do you think shippers will get comfortable

15:02

with their new operations,

15:05

their alternative channels,

15:07

so to speak, and stay

15:09

there and never bring that business back

15:11

to Baltimore? Well,

15:14

it's important to point out that the port of Baltimore is

15:16

one of the top ports in the country and

15:18

the number one roll-on, roll-off port

15:20

for a reason. It has

15:22

some distinct geographic advantages. For example,

15:24

it's a couple hundred miles closer

15:27

to the Midwest markets than

15:29

any other East Coast port. So

15:31

those natural advantages, I

15:33

think in the long term, we'll serve it well. There

15:35

are different kinds of cargos

15:38

that are more likely

15:41

to stay in the long term. So

15:44

if you look at the container traffic, for example,

15:46

there's a lot of discretionary container

15:49

cargo in most of the East Coast

15:51

ports. It can shift from one to another. It

15:53

can shift back. What's

15:55

less likely to change in the longer term

15:57

are some of the very high value cargo.

16:01

The export that I mentioned

16:03

of construction machinery, agricultural machinery.

16:07

The Port of Baltimore is the number nine port in the nation

16:09

by dollar value because

16:11

of those high value cargos

16:14

that are essential for the U.S. economy

16:17

and export. I

16:19

believe that with

16:23

the roll on, roll off cargos as

16:25

a base, that

16:28

the long-term restoration of the port will

16:31

happen, that it will continue to grow in

16:33

the future, and those natural advantages that it

16:35

has, including, by the way,

16:37

a workforce that's highly efficient

16:39

and productive, will

16:41

continue to advantage the

16:43

port in bringing back that business. The

16:47

federal government has already approved $60

16:49

million as what Maryland Governor Wes

16:51

Moore describes as a quote-unquote down

16:54

payment on the process

16:56

of clearing the channel and rebuilding

16:59

the bridge. Is this a

17:01

time to, perhaps

17:03

on a parallel track, reimagine

17:05

the port's operations or design

17:08

in additional infrastructure improvements?

17:11

Or do you expect or would you

17:13

advise that we simply sprint as quickly

17:16

as we can to get back to

17:18

the status quo ante and get that

17:20

port up and running again? Which

17:22

is the better approach? The

17:25

right approach, and I think the only approach

17:27

that we should take, and

17:29

I think one that

17:31

clearly the President and the Governor have both supported,

17:34

is to do the right thing in future

17:36

proof, the port as much as possible with

17:38

any improvements. What I mean by that is, I

17:41

talked about the decade-long

17:43

investment in getting a 50-foot channel.

17:48

The Key Bridge had an

17:50

air height of 185 feet. If

17:55

you look at the Bayonne Bridge in New

17:57

Jersey, which was an existing bridge that was

17:59

raised to accommodate the largest container ships.

18:01

It's at 215 feet now. The

18:04

Port Authority of New York and New Jersey

18:06

spent over a billion dollars taking an existing

18:08

bridge and raising it to meet existing

18:11

container traffic in

18:14

cruise ship needs. We

18:16

should certainly do that with

18:18

the Francis Scott T Bridge replacement. We should

18:20

make sure that it serves not

18:22

just today's needs but the future's. It's

18:25

also important to rebuild it in a

18:28

safer way than a bridge opened

18:30

in 1977 and designed in the early 70s

18:32

was. So

18:36

for example, you didn't have breakdown

18:38

shoulders for the traffic on the bridge.

18:40

You didn't have hiker biker facilities

18:43

connecting major

18:45

parts of the Baltimore Metro area over that bridge.

18:48

The kind of armoring and protection that

18:51

you can have for the piers today

18:55

is a lot different than what

18:57

was in place at the time. You

18:59

wanna have that air draft. I mentioned

19:02

the height sufficient for the

19:04

future. This replacement bridge

19:06

is one that most

19:09

likely your children, your

19:11

grandchildren, maybe your great grandchildren will be

19:13

using. So it's really important as

19:16

much as everyone

19:18

wants it open tomorrow to

19:20

do it right, to make sure that

19:22

it serves like all good transportation facilities,

19:25

future economic development needs, not just today's.

19:29

And what will the ports operations look

19:31

like during the reconstruction phase?

19:33

Because it sounds like what you're talking

19:36

about, what other officials have talked about

19:38

is a multi-year process to get that

19:40

new bridge up and running measured

19:43

as a percentage of the

19:45

pre-collapse throughput. Will the

19:47

port be operating at 50% capacity, 75%? What

19:51

would you expect? It's

19:54

obviously an educated guess, but once the

19:56

channel is restored, The port

19:58

will be back to... From virtually

20:01

normal operations on that Loss

20:03

of the key bridge is

20:05

also means the loss of

20:07

the hazmat root for trucks

20:09

are in in the area.

20:13

That will have to be accommodated

20:15

long term, but I think you'll see

20:17

a as the channels restored the port

20:20

very quickly going back and operations again.

20:22

If if you're doing final assembly work

20:24

in Moline Illinois, that's every bit

20:26

as important as it is to are

20:29

the people of that are city of

20:31

Baltimore work directly at the port. It

20:33

is important to the national economy is

20:36

it is to the local one and

20:38

and I think that's why you see

20:40

this or unanimity of effort in

20:42

understanding. Thought that this is not

20:44

just an interconnected system is an interconnected

20:46

economy and we all depend on each

20:49

other. Or

20:51

I'm gonna wanna Ra Ra. Audience

20:53

question service come from My John

20:55

and Massachusetts. He asks what will

20:58

be the most efficient alternative routes

21:00

for the flow of goods while

21:02

the bridge is being reconstructed, And

21:05

will the bridge be totally redesigned

21:07

based on this accident? With.

21:11

It the state of the art is

21:13

always advancing or in in bridge design

21:15

end and it's certainly a lot more

21:17

advanced than it was in the early

21:20

seventies. Thought you were the reasons that

21:22

that facility is a break and not

21:24

a panel. Baltimore already has to tunnels

21:26

include the I Ninety Five tunnel is

21:28

campers hazardous material shipments of in truck

21:31

through the tunnels so the has to

21:33

be some accommodation for the fact that

21:35

serves the entire east coast the United

21:37

States not just Baltimore that the T

21:39

like in the system. On

21:42

there are of February

21:44

an alternative. Fucking. Roots.

21:47

Less than optimal are but

21:49

but certainly workable and thought

21:52

you'll see that are continue

21:54

for however long it takes

21:56

to build a new bridge

21:59

facility that. That ah.

22:01

He. It's not just because you're doing

22:03

it quickly to question doing it right

22:05

as I mentioned and I picked it

22:08

out that that is one place where

22:10

are the our federal partners are stay

22:12

partners it together are are in lockstep

22:14

on doing it right. And.

22:17

Any time there's an accident of

22:19

this sort of using inspector, a

22:22

regulatory, perhaps even a legislative response

22:24

of as of the Ntsb which

22:26

is vastly getting the accidents or

22:28

comments at the other day that

22:31

the black box or data recorders

22:33

found on container ships for instance

22:35

are much more rudimentary than the

22:37

ones fun and commercial airliners of

22:40

that seems like an obvious place

22:42

for era of officials to perhaps

22:44

to tighten up the regulations. What

22:46

sort of additional response. Or if

22:48

any do you think would be warranted. Where

22:52

the the National Transportation Safety Board

22:54

up is important safety asset in

22:56

that it's an independent agency that

22:58

are you. Does these investigations fum

23:01

whether it's er er der Sar

23:03

bridge disaster like this he views

23:05

and pipelines, farm or other parts

23:08

of the transportation system and we

23:10

do learn valuable lessons each time.

23:12

I also expected to the Us

23:14

Department Transportation and the Maryland Department

23:17

transportation Will I apparel after September

23:19

and those lessons. From the

23:21

the reality is the state of

23:23

the art in in safety and security

23:26

and zoo advanced spot when when you

23:28

look carefully at incidents that have

23:30

happened you can bet that will be

23:32

the case here on the. T.

23:35

Bridge. was

23:38

designed in the last ten years

23:40

thought as opposed to the early

23:42

nineties his seventies it would be

23:45

a lot different than the structure

23:47

that you saw farm and in

23:49

see in the water right now

23:51

so death safety security will continue

23:54

to advance or it will be

23:56

have some nationwide lessons for what

23:58

will be dozens if not hundreds

24:00

of other bridge structures around the country. And

24:04

how about the future of these

24:06

ever larger container ships? On the

24:08

one hand, they're truly technological and

24:11

engineering marvel. They allow us all

24:13

to enjoy wider

24:15

product choice, cheaper

24:18

products coming to us from all

24:20

over the world, but they really

24:22

are massive vessels. And

24:25

I wonder, in your mind, have we

24:28

effectively reached the limit of

24:30

the container ship size, or do

24:32

you think it's possible and safe

24:35

for them to continue growing? Well,

24:38

we have already reached

24:40

some practical limits in the

24:42

worldwide supply chain with

24:45

both the Suez and Panama canals being

24:48

limited factors. There are ships

24:50

out there that can't use either one of

24:53

those canals, and they're both essential for global

24:55

commerce. In ports all around

24:57

the United States, you find a

24:59

aircraft issues where bridges aren't high enough for

25:01

some of the vessels that are out

25:03

there today. I do

25:06

think that there are some practical limits. The

25:10

growth in the size of

25:12

these vessels has been astounding.

25:14

If you think about, if you

25:16

went back to the bridge designers of the 1970s

25:19

and told them there would be 22,000, 20

25:22

foot equivalent unit EU vessels, they

25:25

probably would have had you locked up. But

25:29

it's clear that there

25:31

is some practical limit on that. The

25:34

investments on the land side at

25:36

container ports where a crane has

25:38

to reach across 22 or 24 or 26 containers, just

25:43

to pick one off a ship, there

25:45

are some practical and I

25:47

think economic limitations to that. And

25:50

how about other ports reconsidering

25:54

their bridge design and bridge

25:56

safety. Are there other

25:58

American ports? that should

26:01

be taking a look at putting

26:04

protective structures around their bridges?

26:06

Or was Baltimore an isolated

26:09

example? This

26:11

is clearly potentially a nationwide

26:13

issue. So there are fracture,

26:16

what they call fracture critical bridges, bridges with

26:18

single points of failure, which was the state

26:20

of the art of design in the 1970s,

26:23

all over the country. Not

26:27

just at ports, but in

26:31

spanning rivers and lots of other places in

26:34

the country. As

26:36

an industry, people have worked

26:39

to make sure there's no

26:42

future fracture critical designs to

26:45

make sure that the state of the art in terms of armoring

26:49

channels and piers is

26:52

happening. It is

26:55

evolving. And just

26:58

to give people a sense

27:00

of the size of that vessel, which is not

27:03

an extraordinarily large container vessel, it's

27:06

basically the size and displacement of

27:08

a Nimitz class aircraft carrier. That

27:11

is clearly something no one envisioned at the time

27:13

the bridge was designed. Remarkable.

27:15

Well, in a minute or

27:18

so we have left, I want to end on one more

27:21

question from an audience member

27:23

appropriately enough from Maryland. Don

27:26

asks, what strategies can be

27:28

implemented to mitigate future economic

27:31

impacts and enhance the resilience

27:33

of the port of Baltimore?

27:35

And just about a minute left. Don,

27:38

it's a great question. I

27:41

mentioned resiliency and redundancy. We need to

27:43

make sure that the port

27:46

is not constricted by any kind

27:48

of catastrophe like this in the

27:51

future. We need to make sure that the

27:53

transportation investments and

27:56

design are ones that

27:58

allow For that kind of

28:00

resiliency, I'm and we need to think far

28:02

into the future. As I mentioned before to

28:04

by truth is that the what what what

28:06

we do build up will serve as well

28:08

for fifty or seventy five or even one

28:10

hundred years. Well.

28:13

Unfortunately yeah we are on a time

28:15

Sir John Rehab for have to leave

28:17

it there. I want to thank you

28:19

again for for joining us for over

28:21

a fascinating conversation. The certain topics can

28:24

be with us obviously for some time

28:26

to com. Thanks for listening! For

28:28

more information on our upcoming programs,

28:30

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