0:03

Aqualars . This

0:06

is the Water Force Site Podcast powered

0:08

by the Aqualars group , where we anticipate

0:10

, frame and shape the future of water

0:13

through strategic foresight . Today's guest

0:15

is Samista Jagwant , who's the technical

0:17

director at Sutari . Samista

0:20

, welcome to the Water Force Site Podcast

0:22

.

0:22

Thanks , matthew , it's good to be here .

0:25

Well , our guests may not know , but

0:27

you are all the way in

0:29

South Africa joining us and

0:31

it's a privilege to have you . I hope it's

0:33

not too late for you and

0:35

you've had a cup of coffee and ready to talk

0:38

about the future of water

0:40

.

0:41

I do have that cup of coffee .

0:43

Well , great , we're going to talk about something that's very interesting

0:46

to me and

0:48

I think , also to you , but to our listeners

0:51

, something they may not be thinking about

0:53

when it comes to the future of water , and that

0:56

is the term wash

0:58

. Now , many

1:00

people who aren't in the world of water think

1:02

that when you say wash , you're going to go wash

1:04

your car or take a bath . But

1:08

I think that a lot of people in the world

1:10

of water know probably what

1:12

wash means . But help us real quick , understand

1:16

the term wash . What does

1:18

it stand for and

1:20

what does it mean ?

1:21

So wash is not a term that

1:23

is often spoken about

1:25

in developed countries , because

1:28

it essentially stands for water , sanitation

1:30

and hygiene . These are things that

1:32

I think in more privileged

1:34

situations we tend to take for granted

1:36

. They're grouped together

1:38

because when they're not present , the

1:41

impact that they have is pretty similar

1:43

in terms that you have the

1:45

rampant spread of disease and ill health , and

1:51

I think most of us in

1:53

our space has grown up with this just

1:56

opening a tap , flushing a toilet

1:58

, but in the world there are 2.2

2:01

billion people who can't turn

2:03

on that tap in their homes kind of safe , clean

2:05

water . There's more than 3.6

2:08

billion that's about half of our global population

2:10

that do not have access

2:12

to safe toilets in their home . 500

2:16

people practice open defecation

2:18

. It feels a railway

2:21

line and I think

2:23

one of the most chilling statistics

2:25

that's around is about 500,000

2:28

children under the age of five pass

2:30

away every year because

2:32

of disease related to a lack of sanitation

2:35

and clean water . So

2:37

it's a massive problem . It's just that maybe

2:39

it's not out in the floor

2:41

as much as it should be .

2:43

Yeah , and I think you

2:45

hit on why

2:47

. I think this conversation is very interesting

2:50

to us in the world

2:52

of water in that we

2:54

often hear the term wash

2:56

and we think , well , that's a problem

2:58

over there , like somewhere else the

3:01

second world , third world , as we call it oh

3:04

, but not here in the West or not here in America

3:06

. And I've been thinking about

3:09

that because in

3:11

America we've had some stories of people

3:13

across America that really

3:15

are experiencing the very things that you're

3:18

describing and

3:20

it's been a bit of a head scratcher for a lot of people

3:22

because they thought , well , gee , I thought

3:24

we had everything figured out . Here in America

3:27

or in the West , everyone has

3:29

a drinking water source , a well or

3:32

some sort of municipal water

3:34

supply .

3:36

And we all have bathroom .

3:38

But we have stories of that and I'm thinking

3:41

what's the future of

3:43

wash ? Is it just simply still

3:45

, as you kind of described , a problem somewhere

3:47

else ? Or maybe

3:50

in the future we're going to see wash come

3:53

over back to the West , if you

3:55

will , to America , and we have our own

3:57

wash challenges

3:59

. So we'll unpack this

4:01

and talk about it . But that's kind of why I thought

4:03

we need to talk to Sumista about this

4:06

and get a little bit of education

4:08

and think about the future of this . But

4:11

I don't know what you see

4:13

where you live in South Africa

4:15

. Do you see things that

4:18

concern you about wash

4:20

in America or the West ?

4:23

Yeah , so South Africa is a

4:25

bit of a funny place where we have very

4:28

highly developed areas and then

4:30

areas that aren't as developed . But

4:33

you're totally right , I think wash

4:35

in the developing countries is known

4:38

because it's the worst case

4:40

scenario . It's a very obvious , very publicized

4:43

situations , but

4:45

essentially , if you do not have access

4:47

to clean water , that

4:50

is a lack of wash . And there are many

4:52

rural areas in the developed world that

4:54

do not have access to that , or they have

4:57

water to their homes , but the water is contaminated

4:59

. And if you

5:01

think , as if

5:03

we progress with certain environmental challenges

5:06

that we're seeing all over , our water

5:08

sources are becoming more and more contaminated

5:10

, our groundwater is becoming more

5:12

and more contaminated , which means that this

5:15

problem is something that is going to increase

5:17

in the developed world , maybe

5:19

not in the same way that it is in the developing

5:21

world , where that infrastructure isn't there , but

5:25

it will happen . If

5:30

I think about the neighborhood that I live in , it's

5:32

a very developed area , but

5:34

because it's a very old area , we don't have

5:36

maybe the best sanitation

5:38

system . So , once again , there's

5:41

infrastructure there , but there's still a lack

5:43

of safe sanitation . And

5:45

then we think about all the war and conflict

5:47

and civil unrest that we're seeing across

5:49

the globe , and that's not a question

5:52

of countries that are developed and countries

5:54

that aren't . Every time

5:56

that happens , every time they're natural disasters

5:59

. One of the first of infrastructure

6:01

that is affected is

6:03

water and sanitation

6:05

. If you think about every hurricane

6:07

or tornado that's occurred , the

6:10

one thing that people don't have is clean water

6:12

and safe sanitation , which increases

6:14

the amount of disease that happens and that

6:16

follows natural disasters , and

6:19

so it definitely is something that's relevant , no matter

6:21

where in the world we're sitting .

6:24

Yeah , you always see the pictures of

6:26

the trucks that deliver bottled water , or

6:30

the portapotties , if you will , whenever

6:32

there's a hurricane that rolls through , and you see pictures

6:34

of the water and wastewater

6:37

plants are just inundated with flooding

6:39

and water and they

6:41

go down for a bit . And so what do people do

6:43

, right ? So I

6:47

had a question and I think we've already talked

6:49

about it , but I

6:51

think I was going to ask you where does

6:53

wash exist ? And

6:55

I think you and I have talked about it being

6:59

in the minds of developed

7:01

nations . It's a problem over there . It's somewhere else . We've reached

7:04

stories about

7:07

. Well , let's just give some money to water

7:09

for people , or let's give some money to

7:11

some missionaries to help them with the communities

7:14

that they're serving , but it's always over

7:16

there , and I think , as I mentioned , I'm

7:18

scratching my head wondering if it's not somewhere

7:22

over there . But it's also a first world problem

7:24

, and you indicated where you live

7:26

, in South Africa . You

7:29

see those things too . It's a bit of a mixed

7:31

bag , and

7:33

so in my mind , could possibly

7:36

a

7:38

situation arise in the future where we see

7:41

the Red

7:43

Cross or maybe even the United

7:45

Nations coming to America and

7:47

helping communities that

7:50

are underserved , that have

7:52

wash issues , not

7:54

over there , but over here

7:56

or in the first world , and

7:59

so I think

8:01

maybe the answer to the question

8:03

is wash may exist everywhere , and

8:06

in the future we may see this

8:08

notion challenge

8:12

our stereotypes of what is

8:14

wash and where does it exist . Is that fair

8:16

?

8:17

Yes , the thing is . I mean , even

8:19

if you look at some urban areas where the services

8:22

aren't enough for the high density

8:24

population that has occurred because of urbanization

8:27

, they also have

8:29

wash problems because they

8:31

don't have enough water or their water sources

8:33

aren't clean . And

8:36

it's not just I feel

8:39

it's not just a problem

8:41

for now . It's a problem

8:43

that's going to persist and

8:45

, as you mentioned , it's just going to look differently

8:48

. I know , when I've seen a lot

8:50

of the work that's been coming out . Sometimes , when you follow

8:52

the bids and the proposals that come

8:54

out in the wash space , you definitely

8:56

see now a little bit more

8:59

of an emphasis not only on the traditional

9:01

wash in areas that don't have infrastructure

9:03

, but there's a lot more emphasis on

9:06

this life emergency wash

9:08

, like how do you actually

9:10

help a population

9:13

that doesn't have access

9:15

to it ? It's not because they didn't have , but as

9:17

of now they do not have access

9:19

to that infrastructure . So

9:21

it definitely is becoming something

9:25

that we pay attention to

9:27

, even though it's not as extreme

9:31

as some of the other things . We have

9:33

all these challenges that are very extreme , and

9:35

this doesn't seem like an extreme one , but when we actually

9:37

think about the value

9:40

of having clean water and

9:42

the value of not having your waste

9:44

stay in your surroundings , or

9:47

polluting your environment .

9:48

Yeah , we often say

9:50

water is free

9:52

, there it is , it's in the

9:54

groundwater , it is the

9:57

groundwater , it's over there in the stream or the reservoir

9:59

. Now , sometimes people don't understand . It takes time

10:02

and money to build the infrastructure to make sure

10:04

you can move it and clean

10:07

it . But there's a bit of a cognitive

10:09

issue there , and certainly maybe not with the

10:11

wastewater . People say that's bad , get it away

10:13

for me right ? Yes , I

10:16

think that when

10:18

we think about the future of wash

10:21

, one question that I

10:23

have is on the

10:26

nature of wash , or how we define

10:28

wash , and we

10:30

often think of it as a

10:33

geographic issue . It is focused

10:35

on people over there , people who are less

10:37

advantaged , if you will

10:39

, and it's focused on water

10:43

quality predominantly and chiefly

10:45

on biological issues such as

10:48

viruses and bacteria . Can

10:50

we get it free of bacteria and viruses

10:52

? But when we think about what's happening here

10:54

in America , with the

10:56

resurgence of lead and lead

10:58

service lines and also the

11:01

focus on unregulated contaminants , will

11:03

the notion of wash for

11:05

people over there or even maybe

11:08

here in America , will the

11:10

notion of wash change to

11:12

something more than just the basic

11:15

? Let's address the biological contaminants , but it may even

11:17

be . Let's address some

11:20

of the heavy metals . Let's address these what

11:22

we call unregulated contaminants . Will

11:24

the nature of wash change

11:27

in the future in your opinion ?

11:30

It's a very good point that you make

11:32

. I haven't read a

11:34

lot of literature on this particular space

11:38

. I think it's a good observation . What

11:41

we do know is that , with climate

11:43

change challenges ahead , our

11:48

water security is at risk , and

11:50

what's coming from that really is that

11:53

wastewater is no longer waste , it's

11:55

a resource , and so

11:57

, looking at the water and sanitation part now

12:00

, in some cases actually becomes

12:02

a cycle . What we

12:04

think is sanitation is actually our future

12:06

water source , and so all of those contaminants

12:09

that you're talking about , they become so critical

12:11

because in a system like that , those

12:14

concentrations have not treated , magnify

12:17

. If we think about even we

12:19

take it a step further , and especially

12:21

in areas that do have good infrastructure

12:24

and good healthcare systems , there

12:26

are things like antibiotics , blood

12:28

control , hormones all

12:30

the emerging contaminants

12:33

that we have not really bolted

12:36

into our water quality monitoring

12:38

systems yet because they're not that

12:40

visible or the output that they have it's

12:42

not that visible , but

12:44

as our water supplies

12:46

become at risk

12:49

compared to our growing population and our

12:51

rising climate change challenges , these

12:54

things now become extremely critical , and

12:57

so the technology that we apply

12:59

in the sanitation side needs

13:01

to keep in mind that that actually might be our

13:03

water source .

13:05

Yeah , yeah , I think you raise a good point about emerging

13:08

contaminants and the image

13:11

that people in the West have of wash

13:14

. When they put a picture to that term , they

13:16

think of building

13:19

a well in the middle of Africa

13:21

and they don't think that

13:23

perhaps the water at

13:25

issue is already contaminated

13:28

. It may be from a river that has factories

13:31

upstream , or agricultural contamination

13:33

, and then when you look at it as a system

13:36

of treating the wastewater

13:38

to generate drinking water , now we have

13:40

to figure out how do we make sure

13:42

that that wastewater slash

13:45

drinking water to be is truly

13:47

clean and safe

13:50

for consumption . And I think perhaps what

13:52

you're putting

13:55

out there is a future scenario

13:57

for how wash will

13:59

be addressed in the future by regulators

14:01

, by communities and other

14:04

decision makers . That's kind

14:06

of my take .

14:07

It's always been such a strong focus

14:10

on the actual technology

14:12

operations of these things . Right

14:14

, but what we tend

14:16

not to look at is education , so

14:19

having people understand why these

14:21

things are important . They take responsibility

14:23

of contaminants

14:26

discharge . It's

14:28

also the regulatory side where , if we

14:30

look at things like the scenario

14:33

that you painted , we

14:37

need to have strict regulations

14:40

on how we monitor discharges , because right now , I

14:43

think in many societies we have bylaws

14:46

that tell us what we can or can't do , but it's almost impossible

14:49

to monitor thousands

14:51

of industries , and so

14:53

I think the whole wash scenario is the whole wash scenario

14:56

. It takes on not just the technological

14:59

side , but also

15:02

the people wanting to do the right

15:04

thing and good behavior , strongly linked to education

15:06

. Yeah , that's a good point , and also being

15:08

able to monitor and regulate it .

15:10

Yeah , that's a good point . Again

15:12

, back to the stereotype that people in the West

15:15

might have about Osh , about putting

15:17

a well in and being able to get a bucket

15:19

of water . Certainly

15:22

, as you put it , the operational side we

15:24

can do that , we can provide water to people

15:26

, but is there

15:28

a legal framework around it

15:30

? Are there laws or regulations that protect

15:34

that water source or require commercial

15:37

, industrial and even residential

15:39

concerns to properly

15:41

dispose of their

15:43

wastewater so that it doesn't

15:45

contaminate sources

15:48

of drinking water ? And I think

15:50

that's a good point . It's not just the technical

15:52

side of wash that may change in the future

15:54

, it's also the

15:56

legal side of

15:59

wash that may change in the future or may

16:01

need to change , and we can get into

16:03

that . That's a good observation . I

16:07

have a question about the

16:10

rise of corporate

16:13

social responsibility , about

16:15

environmental , social and governance or

16:17

ESG , and then these things called

16:19

SDGs

16:22

, sustainable development goals A lot of alphabet

16:25

soup there we see here

16:27

in America and people

16:29

have our time . Okay , what does it all mean

16:31

and how does it relate and what does it have to do

16:33

with wash ? So your

16:35

thoughts on ESG

16:38

that a lot of companies are pursuing and even

16:40

these sustainable development goals

16:42

what does that have to do with wash

16:44

?

16:46

Okay . So sustainable development goals

16:49

they're goals that we want

16:51

to have equitable and sustainable loving

16:54

across the globe . And

16:56

in terms of wash , it

16:59

quite squarely fits into SDG6

17:01

, which is the access to clean

17:03

water and sanitation , and the

17:06

hope is that by 2030 , people

17:10

across the globe has universal

17:13

and equitable access to safe and affordable

17:15

water , and when we say safe and

17:17

affordable water , we mean that people can actually

17:20

have clean water , drinking

17:22

water , in their homes . The

17:25

same 6.2 in this in

17:27

the skull is about access to

17:29

adequate and equitable

17:32

sanitation and hygiene , and in

17:34

that regard , we're talking about sanitation

17:36

that can safely remove waste

17:39

so it doesn't cause an environmental

17:41

or a hygiene problem , and hygiene

17:43

, we're talking about people

17:46

having the ability to

17:48

. Just

17:51

in one of the goals with SDG

17:53

, it's just about washing your hands with soap , and

17:56

that sounds incredibly like doesn't

17:58

everyone wash their hands with soap ? But

18:01

in low income countries , there's a certain same

18:03

stat that only one in four people

18:05

have access to hand washing

18:07

facilities , and

18:10

so we think everyone does that . But

18:12

if you don't have water , if you don't have

18:14

soap , how do you even start

18:16

? And

18:19

then with the SDG , so go

18:21

ahead .

18:21

Matthew , I

18:24

think you are spot on on SDG

18:27

, sdg 6 . And I

18:29

think those are

18:32

what I would

18:34

call voluntary goals

18:37

, precepts that were developed

18:40

by the United Nations , if I'm correct . And

18:43

maybe what you are

18:45

seeing is that , as

18:47

companies become

18:49

more committed to their

18:52

character , if you will

18:54

, in the world

18:56

, they're saying what can we do to

19:00

demonstrate our commitment to humanity

19:03

? And so we're looking

19:05

at environmental , social and governance

19:07

ESG to

19:10

put on a better face , to

19:12

demonstrate our commitment to the communities

19:15

in which we operate . And they look over here

19:17

and they say , well

19:19

, hey , these sustainable development goals

19:21

, they're pretty good . We

19:23

don't have to build it from scratch

19:25

. Let's bring in SDG

19:27

6 as part of our

19:30

list of things we're going

19:32

to commit to on

19:36

ESG and we're going to promote SDG

19:38

6 and perhaps

19:40

maybe , after talking to you

19:43

right , they're going to say , hey , we talked

19:45

to some of our consultants and maybe

19:47

we need to invest in wash , we

19:49

need to support wash activities around the world

19:52

. Is that a

19:54

framework that makes sense to you ? Is that kind

19:56

of how they're all related ?

19:58

So I've seen it happen . So Coca-Cola

20:01

, for example they have an amazing program

20:03

called RAIN , their replenish Africa

20:05

initiative , where they have a number of wash projects

20:08

under the banner since I think

20:10

it might have been like 2009

20:12

or 2010 , but

20:14

they've been doing it for a while . But I also

20:16

have a lot of other companies . When they're doing

20:18

the water management strategy , Part

20:21

of it is also their water stewardship

20:23

, so they're responsibility to the communities

20:25

. And I mean

20:27

there's a wonderful example in South Africa

20:30

where a company

20:32

, instead of just focusing on doing things

20:34

for a tick box exercise you know , I'm going

20:36

to put rainwater harvesting , I'm

20:38

going to put gray water , I'm going to do everything

20:40

just because it looks good . A

20:43

lot of these companies aren't doing that . They're

20:45

saying I can also make a difference in

20:47

terms of water , in terms

20:49

of me being a steward of

20:51

providing services to the communities

20:54

that buy our products and

20:56

that work in our companies . And

20:58

so in the East , in Cape in South Africa , one

21:00

of the companies I've worked with they

21:03

did an amazing thing where they actually

21:05

sponsored a program for

21:07

plumbers to go

21:09

into these sort

21:12

of lower socioeconomic

21:14

housing to fix the systems

21:17

on the toilets , and

21:19

by doing that the water was basically

21:21

flowing through all the time and being wasted

21:23

, and by fixing these toilets

21:25

, they suddenly saved a whole

21:27

lot of water for the community to be able to use and

21:30

they dropped the cost . So there's

21:32

amazing things that companies can do and

21:36

they add a tremendous amount of value .

21:40

That's interesting , that sort

21:42

of tees up really some

21:44

important questions for us to go through . Now

21:47

you are a foresight professional

21:50

like me , and we talk

21:52

about scenarios , we talk about the future

21:55

, and the

21:57

things that we've just talked about are very interesting

21:59

and they beg the question about

22:02

the future of wash and

22:04

the different scenarios that we may

22:06

see when it comes to wash . And

22:08

we can talk about it not

22:10

only through scenarios related to transformation

22:13

or business as usual or even

22:15

collapse of wash , but we

22:18

can talk about it , as you alluded to

22:20

earlier , about different lenses , the operational

22:22

or technical side of wash , or even the legal

22:25

or regulatory side of wash . Or you

22:28

just talked a few minutes about how I

22:30

think Coca-Cola is maybe taking a let's

22:32

call it an ethical or

22:34

moral approach to wash and

22:36

what are

22:39

. We can walk through this , but let's talk about some

22:41

future scenarios of wash , the

22:43

possible , probable , plausible

22:46

scenarios that may happen in wash

22:48

, and maybe are there winners

22:50

and losers , are there things that if

22:53

in 10 to 20 years this happens in wash

22:55

, we might want to think about today , how to either

22:57

take advantage of that future

22:59

or avoid that future

23:02

. It could be a negative future that we don't want

23:04

, so a lot to

23:06

unpack , but I'll

23:08

let you tell me where you want to start . But

23:10

what are some of the future scenarios you see for wash

23:13

? Is it all rainbows and unicorns

23:15

? Are you worried ? I

23:18

mean , do we see challenges ? So let's

23:20

talk about that . Where do you think we're going to be with wash

23:22

in 10 to 20 years ?

23:24

I think maybe the place to start is the most

23:26

probable future , and that

23:29

definitely does have a constraint vibe

23:31

to it . I've spoken

23:33

to a lot of people

23:35

who work in NGOs in the wash space

23:38

and one of the things

23:40

that they say is that this funding

23:42

for these wash projects and

23:45

they go in and they place this wonderful

23:47

technology in these

23:49

communities that need the water or

23:52

the sanitation , but the limitation

23:54

that they have is that within two years

23:56

that equipment is

23:58

either vandalized or stolen or

24:00

broken because of lack of maintenance , because

24:03

communities they've played in , they have day-to-day

24:06

issues of not having food

24:09

money . These

24:11

things are almost like a nice to have and

24:15

so , if we continue the way we're

24:17

going , money

24:19

is being found to

24:21

put in these solutions , but

24:23

within two years time , if those solutions break

24:25

, that community is back to where

24:27

they've started and so there'll

24:29

be little improvement and the statistics will

24:32

remain the same . I think right

24:34

now , as we stand , if

24:36

we continue at the same rate that

24:38

we're progressing at , it's

24:41

going to take six times that

24:43

to meet the safe water

24:45

goal for SDG6 . And

24:48

it's going to take us five times the current rate

24:50

to meet the sanitation goal , because

24:52

in five years time we have to walk six times harder

24:54

than we already have in order

24:56

to actually get to a point that's

24:59

acceptable and

25:01

the way we're going that's not

25:03

going to happen . I

25:06

think that kind of leads to the question that the

25:08

solution is not just about technology

25:10

or money . It's

25:12

about understanding

25:14

the environment that you're putting certain technologies

25:17

in . It's about working with the

25:19

community so they understand and

25:21

value what you're putting in , and

25:23

also having some sort of economic

25:25

potential with the system that you're putting in

25:27

that allows itself to actually

25:29

almost self-maintain , so

25:31

that you have some sort of business case

25:33

to it , that there's

25:35

a value proposition for someone to keep

25:37

it operational .

25:42

So you see a future you

25:45

think there's . The most probable future

25:47

is one that is

25:50

somewhere between transformation and business

25:52

as usual , but you're cautiously optimistic about

25:55

how that will support

25:57

WASH . But I think what I hear you saying

26:00

is that , to get to that

26:02

future that you desire

26:04

, there's

26:06

some things that you need to backcast

26:09

into strategies for today , and

26:12

I think you've talked about a

26:14

number of things , and

26:17

certainly , maybe some security for

26:19

the systems , the operational systems that are installed

26:22

. I've heard the same thing that

26:24

you go out , donate

26:26

or fund and install this

26:28

wonderful equipment to provide water and

26:31

then bad people come and steal

26:33

the equipment because the equipment's

26:35

worth a lot of money in

26:37

the marketplace and they'll sell it Right .

26:39

Yeah , sometimes snive in bad people

26:42

, it's just desperate people .

26:44

Right , right , and

26:46

I hear you talking about some strategies for today

26:48

that will , based

26:51

on your kind of vision , the scenario . You

26:54

have some strategies , some issues

26:57

that need to be addressed today to help

26:59

people get to that preferred

27:01

future in WASH . I

27:04

don't want to put words in your mouth , but tell

27:06

us about some of those strategies .

27:09

So when I spoke to some

27:12

of the people walking in these donor funded

27:14

programs , the one thing no-transcript

27:18

we need to move away from solving

27:22

these projects . Just as engineers

27:24

so in the past , when we look

27:26

at good engineering projects , that's the tallest

27:28

building or the road with the

27:30

most amount of lanes . Good

27:33

projects now are the ones that includes

27:35

technology , but community

27:38

economy and environment , and

27:41

so even when we get this funding , we

27:43

can't expect the funding to only fund

27:45

the technology or their equipment

27:48

. We need to actually start the process

27:50

where we allow adequate budget for

27:52

the educational side and

27:54

in order to set up some sort of economic system

27:56

, because economy is

27:58

what will allow these systems

28:01

to be sustainable . We

28:03

also have to be very cognizant about the environment

28:06

and the communities that we're putting this in . You

28:08

know , sometimes , even

28:11

though we don't mean to , we

28:13

think we have the right solution , but

28:17

we're not in certain communities'

28:19

context , and so spending

28:21

that money and that resources upfront

28:24

to really get the right

28:26

solution for that context

28:28

is really , really important , and

28:31

also spending the time to

28:34

have the community buy in into

28:36

what you're putting , because I

28:38

mean , if we put ourselves in some of these

28:40

communities' shoes right , historically

28:43

they've been drawing water from these rivers

28:46

for generations

28:48

. It's never been something

28:50

that they pay for , especially when money is

28:52

limited . To have

28:54

now to pay for this water

28:56

that has been historically free , it

29:00

is strange , it is in

29:03

some ways unacceptable , and

29:06

so , if we can educate that the water

29:08

is no longer as clean as we think

29:10

, it , is that spending time

29:14

walking kilometers to a river

29:17

? I think there's some stat

29:19

that in some developing countries , seven

29:22

out of 10 households actually

29:24

use the girls or the young woman

29:26

in the family to

29:28

spend the whole day to get the water from the river , and

29:31

because of that they're not educated

29:33

, because they can't go to school , and

29:35

because of that you have certain and the gender-based

29:38

social ills that creep in , and

29:41

so all of these things can change . But it's

29:43

very difficult to sell value unless we

29:46

start right from the beginning , and

29:48

once we have people wanting it , it

29:51

makes it sustainable .

29:54

I think you've highlighted that when

29:56

we think about the future of wash and

29:59

you are cautiously optimistic

30:02

about the future of wash and you're

30:04

telling us that it's not just a technical

30:06

lens through which we think

30:08

about the future of wash , I hear you saying

30:11

that there are environmental

30:13

, there are social , emotional and

30:16

ethical issues that also need

30:18

to be considered in a more holistic

30:20

approach to the future

30:22

of wash . That it's not simply coming

30:25

in with a check or here's

30:27

your truck with all the equipment

30:30

, we'll assemble it . Good luck . You

30:33

need to be in communication with the

30:35

community . You need to have their buy-in emotionally

30:37

, socially , culturally , not

30:41

understanding the technical ability

30:43

to operate it , which requires education

30:45

. So I hear

30:48

you talking about a multifaceted

30:51

framework of

30:53

strategies to implement today

30:55

to get us to that preferred future

30:57

of wash that you

31:00

envision . Is that fair ?

31:03

It is , and I think with most of these things

31:05

, they can actually act

31:07

as a catalyst for accelerated development

31:10

. So if you're

31:12

able to create a business case with

31:15

this , so I think in India there are cases

31:17

where people run sanitation

31:19

blocks and they collect

31:21

the waste and they digest

31:24

it for biogas and then they sell that biogas

31:26

. That can almost become

31:28

a franchise where other people want to do it

31:30

now because it's a business , it's an income

31:32

, but it's also solving

31:34

a social

31:37

problem and

31:40

I really think these

31:42

things aren't unimaginable

31:45

, these solutions

31:48

. It just requires

31:50

a little bit of a shift in how we solve

31:52

traditional infrastructure challenges

31:55

.

31:56

Let me flip the coin , and in

31:58

the world of foresight , we talk about

32:01

signals of change

32:03

and often that

32:06

environmental scanning , the horizon scannings , in

32:08

my opinion , probably the most important

32:10

part of scenario

32:12

planning . If you're not paying attention , looking

32:14

at things , interpreting , discussing

32:17

signals of change , you may end

32:19

up with bad scenarios . And

32:21

so do you

32:23

see signals of change

32:26

that are possibly

32:29

leading to

32:31

a collapse scenario for

32:33

WASH ? Do you see

32:35

, for example , companies that are funding

32:38

and supporting WASH-based

32:41

initiatives maybe leaving

32:43

developing countries or developed countries and moving

32:46

somewhere else where the

32:48

financial support for these WASH initiatives

32:51

may disappear ? Do you see governments

32:53

turning to other

32:55

challenges when it comes to funding

32:57

? Do you see communities changing

33:00

their interest in WASH ? Are

33:03

there any signals of change that would cause you

33:05

to be concerned about a

33:07

collapse scenario for the

33:10

future of WASH ?

33:13

It is a fear of mine . I

33:15

mean , if we think about it , we've

33:17

been living in relatively

33:20

conflict-free

33:23

times . I mean not

33:25

in the last , maybe few years , but

33:27

over the last decade

33:30

and a bit there has been

33:32

a lot more emphasis

33:34

placed on developmental issues

33:36

. But if

33:38

other issues like conflict

33:41

in the world grows

33:43

, if there are other economic challenges

33:46

presenting themselves climate

33:48

change , as we start seeing

33:50

the effect of climate change more

33:54

there is a fear that

33:56

the world's focus will shift away

33:59

from these challenges

34:03

that they've been placing donor

34:05

funding for and programs for

34:07

. Because I think sometimes

34:09

when you're working at something and it's not

34:11

solving itself , the motivation

34:14

to solve it reduces . And

34:17

I think because

34:21

of the

34:24

breakdown of some of this infrastructure

34:27

, the lack of maintenance , it

34:30

could be very demotivational , especially if there

34:32

are the more immediate problems that show

34:34

themselves . Also

34:36

, the breakdown of trust in

34:39

some programs where the

34:41

incorrect selection

34:44

of technology is used or

34:46

there's a lack of education of why

34:48

we're doing certain things . It can

34:51

create mistrust between those

34:53

who are trying to solve these problems

34:55

and those of the local communities who

34:58

move back traditional practices . So

35:00

if taking away all the progress has been made

35:02

, no pressure on you , of course , right

35:05

.

35:05

No pressure on you , right as

35:07

the consultant , right . But you have to do

35:09

that , you have to build that trust .

35:11

Yes , but I think

35:13

that's where we're heading from , a point

35:15

where it's not just a single party or a single

35:18

solution , or it's technology or it's

35:20

money , but I think

35:22

, in general , infrastructure

35:24

is starting to be a place where the solution is not

35:26

just traditional , it's

35:29

now multi-disciplinary . And

35:31

I think that's what I've been loving about

35:33

foresight it

35:35

really does allow us to look

35:37

at traditional problems

35:40

from many different lenses , not

35:42

just in context of maybe

35:44

social , environment , political , economic

35:48

lenses , but also

35:50

within time . What are the possibilities

35:52

that can exist ?

35:54

Yeah Well

35:57

, semester , I

36:00

appreciate your wisdom on

36:02

the future of wash in

36:04

the world . You've taught us quite a bit

36:07

that we didn't know and

36:09

some things we need to think about

36:11

on the possible futures of

36:14

wash in the world , and I

36:16

want to ask you tell us where

36:19

we can get a hold of you

36:21

if we have further questions about wash in

36:23

the world , and let

36:26

us know if you have any writings or publications

36:28

that we could take a look at related to the

36:31

future of wash .

36:33

Okay , You're welcome

36:35

to find me on LinkedIn . It's semester

36:37

jaguant , and in

36:40

my LinkedIn profile I do have a link

36:42

to a lot of the pieces

36:45

that I have put out on the subject , but

36:48

also on the APF website For

36:50

those who are familiar with it . A lot of my

36:52

blog articles are on that platform

36:54

as well . You're also

36:56

welcome to get hold of me . My email

36:59

address is semesterjgmailcom

37:02

.

37:02

And APF , the Association of Professional

37:04

Futures , a great place to go for thought-provoking

37:08

articles on the

37:10

future of many different things . Thank

37:13

you for listening to the Water Force Site podcast

37:15

powered by the Aqualars Group . For

37:18

more information , please visit us at aqualarscom

37:21

or follow us on LinkedIn and

37:23

Twitter .