0:25

Welcome to today's

0:25

deep dive episode. I'm so

0:28

excited to share this

0:28

conversation I had with Dr. Greg

0:31

Stone. He's the chief ocean

0:31

scientists for the metals

0:34

company. And the metals company,

0:34

as you'll soon learn is what

0:38

might be the future of electric

0:38

vehicle batteries around the

0:42

world. Now, Greg Stone is more

0:42

than just a metals guy. He is a

0:48

decorated Marine scientist with

0:48

over 10,000 dives to his name,

0:52

and he's dope all around the

0:52

world. He's gone down up to

0:56

18,000 feet below the surface

0:56

has lifted underwater habitats

1:00

proficient with underwater

1:00

robotics. You name it, he's done

1:03

it. He's an author, a National

1:03

Geographic Explorer, he was a

1:07

science advisor for oceans for

1:07

the World Economic Forum. He's

1:10

created marine protected areas.

1:10

He's done so many different

1:14

things. So I'm so excited for

1:14

him to speak for himself and

1:17

tell you more about what he's

1:17

done. So sit back, relax, and

1:21

get ready to learn a little bit

1:21

more about the future of

1:23

underwater metals, and about

1:23

ocean discovery. That's funny.

1:41

nippy, for me to know, in zoo,

1:41

to marry a cheap, child away.

2:02

Why natural? Water are we doing?

2:02

And how can we do better? Your

2:12

one stop shop for everything

2:12

water related from discussing

2:17

water, its use and the organisms

2:17

that depend on it. For all the

2:21

global issues that you really

2:21

never knew all had to do with

2:26

water. I'm your host, David

2:26

Evans from the aquatic biosphere

2:29

project. And I just want to ask

2:29

you something. What are we

2:33

doing? And how can we do better?

2:33

So welcome to another deep dive

2:49

episode of the water. We doing

2:49

Podcast. I'm so excited to be

2:52

speaking with Dr. Greg Stone. So

2:52

Greg, do you mind just giving

2:58

yourself a quick introduction

2:58

telling us a little bit about

3:00

yourself and what you do. And I

3:00

know, seeing a quick

3:04

introduction might be a lot

3:04

because you seem to do quite a

3:08

broad range of things so

3:10

I can narrow it down. Yeah, I've been fascinated by the ocean

3:12

since I was a child. And it came

3:15

from watching TV, Jacques

3:15

Cousteau and Lloyd Bridges and

3:19

things like that. But I didn't

3:19

have a family. It wasn't

3:22

interested in it. I just sort of

3:22

found my way to it. And I

3:26

decided quite early on I wanted

3:26

to spend my time underwater. So

3:30

diving was driving me it was it

3:30

was it was not science. It was

3:34

not conservation. It was not

3:34

anything else. It was diving, I

3:37

just loved diving, was going to

3:37

be a commercial diver actually

3:42

went down that road and looked

3:42

into it. And then some guy in

3:47

the industry pulled me aside and

3:47

he said, Hey, kid, this is not

3:53

for you. This is basically

3:53

underwater construction work at

3:56

the cube got a little more in

3:56

you than this. I said, Oh, I

3:59

said, What else can I do? And he

3:59

said, Well look around. And I

4:03

looked around and I saw marine

4:03

marine science. And I said, Oh,

4:06

okay, I can do that. And it

4:06

involves diving. So I went into

4:09

that area. And I started the

4:09

career and fun fun science man.

4:15

I was diving in submarines. And

4:15

I worked for the government, we

4:19

ran the Alvin. I was in Japan

4:19

for three years diving the

4:22

Japanese up so I was living

4:22

underwater and habitats. I was

4:26

living the dream. And then about

4:26

the spring of 1819 90 or so I

4:33

was diving in the Sea of Japan

4:33

at 18,000 feet was quite a quite

4:38

a waist down there takes you

4:38

three hours of data that depth

4:42

and I got to the bottom and last

4:42

thing I expected to see was a

4:45

trash heap at a place where the

4:45

light of day hadn't shown for

4:50

billions of years. And I was I

4:50

was shocked and I

4:55

I realized that this wasn't

4:55

right. And that something had to

5:00

be done about it. This was

5:00

before this was before there was

5:03

any awareness of marine

5:03

conservation. Okay, this was you

5:06

got to put your mind back 30

5:06

years, right? People were still

5:10

thinking dilution is the

5:10

solution and you know, don't

5:14

worry about it. Yeah. But I I

5:14

knew that wasn't the case. So I

5:19

was open then. And about a year

5:19

later, I got asked to start a

5:22

marine conservation program in

5:22

at the New England Aquarium in

5:25

Boston, which I did. And that's

5:25

when the cod fisheries were

5:31

collapsing in the North

5:31

Atlantic. It was really the

5:33

blast off point for zoos, the

5:33

wake up moment. And so I worked

5:40

there conducting research, I did

5:40

a PhD in dolphins, they got

5:45

caught up in fishing nets, I

5:45

found a way to put acoustic

5:48

pingers on the net so they could

5:48

hear the nets and they wouldn't

5:51

get caught up and did a lot of

5:51

work on whales and dolphins.

5:54

That was my first area of

5:54

expertise. And then I went back

6:00

to deep sea research and

6:00

invertebrates and I just

6:04

started, you know, the people

6:04

that know the most about the

6:07

ocean are the people that spend

6:07

the most time in the ocean and

6:10

under the ocean, right? It's not

6:10

the people that study it is

6:13

people that are in it. I can't

6:13

ever talk about this kind of

6:17

stuff without bringing somebody

6:17

else into the room who's

6:19

deceased. Now his name is Teddy

6:19

Tucker, who was a tremendous

6:24

mentor of mine. He was a

6:24

Bermudian shipwreck diver. And I

6:28

met him when I was about 17. You

6:28

know how sometimes important

6:33

people in your life if you want

6:33

to call them mentors, or you

6:36

want to call them guides or

6:36

whatever you want to call them,

6:39

they appear in different forms,

6:39

and they they're not always

6:42

recognizable at first. And this

6:42

guy, he looked like he ran a gas

6:46

station or something. He had a

6:46

strong Bermudian accent, he knew

6:50

more about the ocean than

6:50

anybody I'd ever met. And he was

6:56

famous for finding shipwrecks.

6:56

He found the first intact

7:00

Spanish galleon in the in the

7:00

1950s. So yeah, if you Google

7:06

his name, Teddy Tucker, Teddy

7:06

Tucker, that he Tucker and you

7:10

go back, he's on the cover of

7:10

Time Magazine, Life magazine was

7:13

like the guy of the day. And he

7:13

took me on we got along. And we

7:19

formed at age old human

7:19

relationship of mentor mentee

7:25

system, you know, whatever you

7:25

want to call it, something other

7:28

than college, which is a fairly

7:28

recent way of learning things.

7:32

You know, colleges are only only

7:32

been around for a few 100 years.

7:36

And in all the previous history

7:36

of humanity, we learned in other

7:39

ways. And that was mostly

7:39

contact with people talking with

7:43

people apprenticing with people.

7:43

So in a way I apprenticed with

7:47

him. He also did the same thing

7:47

with a guy named Peter Benchley

7:52

who wrote jaws. And Peter and I

7:52

became Teddy's mentees if you

7:58

will. And Peter was sort of set

7:58

up to write novels about the

8:03

ocean, inspired by Teddy, Teddy

8:03

was like a Yoda. Think of Yoda.

8:08

You had that very unusual look

8:08

about him. And, and then with

8:12

me, there was science, and

8:12

ocean. So we all went off our

8:17

different ways than the three of

8:17

us formed a team, we always come

8:20

back together. And Peter came to

8:20

me one day, he made a lot of

8:24

money out of jaws. He said,

8:24

Greg, I'm sick of these

8:27

documentaries. They're making me

8:27

do to promote jaws and the girls

8:31

and bikinis and go into the

8:31

write all this stuff. He said,

8:35

I've noticed what you're doing.

8:35

It's much more interesting, you

8:38

know, you're out there looking

8:38

at things, you're creating

8:41

marine protected areas, you're

8:41

you're solving problems. He

8:44

says, What can I do to help? And

8:44

I said, Well, you can do a lot,

8:48

I said, you know, your name can

8:48

carry quite a bit. So we started

8:51

making films, we made a series

8:51

of films together, I

8:54

simultaneously kept doing

8:54

expeditions for National

8:57

Geographic and the Discovery

8:57

Channel. And I would always try

9:00

to do a movie, a popular

9:00

magazine article and a science

9:04

paper on a topic. And then I

9:04

move on to something else

9:08

because I wanted to communicate,

9:08

get it out there as far as I

9:12

could, but also have at the at

9:12

the basis of a strong backbone

9:16

of science, a strong backbone of

9:16

some certainty, because there's

9:20

so much propaganda and, and

9:20

speculation and people saying

9:25

things they think but they don't

9:25

know around. You've got it,

9:28

you've got to get something

9:28

there at the base. So I did that

9:31

for 10 or 15 years. And then I

9:31

went into the Pacific Ocean, I'd

9:35

always wanted to work in the

9:35

Pacific ever since I was a kid.

9:38

And I made my way down there. I

9:38

lived in New Zealand for 10

9:41

years. And then somebody asked

9:41

me to go on an expedition to

9:45

this group of islands I'd never

9:45

heard of called the Phoenix

9:48

Islands. And I said, Well, why

9:48

are we going there? And they

9:51

said, Well, they've never been

9:51

dived, and no one's ever really

9:54

explored them. And they said,

9:54

Okay, I'm in.

9:57

Cool.

9:59

And we it was a four day trip from Fiji. They're they're very

10:00

isolated. And I fell in the

10:04

water there and it changed my

10:04

life. I had never seen a reef

10:08

like that before. It was a we

10:08

had been studying reefs with a

10:11

baseline of a degraded reef. The

10:11

baseline that we thought was

10:15

healthy was not healthy. It was

10:15

a degraded reef and I found on

10:19

this reef system out in the

10:19

middle of the Pacific that had

10:22

never been tampered with, and it

10:22

was in pristine condition. And

10:27

we created a marine protected

10:27

area around it called the

10:30

Phoenix Islands protected areas,

10:30

the largest in the world at the

10:33

time, size of California. And

10:33

that's when I caught the

10:37

attention of the bingos, the big

10:37

international NGOs. And they

10:43

pursued me for six years, they

10:43

tried to hire me. And I kept

10:47

saying no. And then I finally

10:47

said, yes, because it seemed to

10:53

line up. And I drank the Kool

10:53

Aid before, I don't want to

10:58

audition. Because they, they are

10:58

a good, they served a very

11:03

important purpose in society and

11:03

waking us all up. But I started

11:08

noticing all this money coming

11:08

into these organizations of

11:11

which I was an executive vice

11:11

president and chief scientist.

11:14

So I was I was right up at the

11:14

top. And I could see the money

11:17

coming in like, so we raised it,

11:17

and I could see how it was

11:21

spent. And it was, I didn't

11:21

think it was spent in the most

11:26

efficient way. The top priority

11:26

was to keep the organization

11:30

going and pay fairly high

11:30

executive salaries of which I

11:35

was one of them. And the people

11:35

that needed the most assistance

11:41

were in the developing world.

11:41

And they were not getting the

11:44

full benefit of this massive

11:44

campaigns that were being

11:48

launched to make awareness of

11:48

it. And it it just didn't make

11:53

sense to me. So I, I left there,

11:53

and went on to the World

11:58

Economic Forum, and I was the

11:58

science advisor of the UN ocean

12:03

envoy for a little while. But I

12:03

quickly realized that they were

12:06

sort of doing the same thing.

12:06

You know, just having a meeting.

12:10

At the end of the meeting, if

12:10

you schedule a new meeting, that

12:12

was that was considered

12:12

successful. There just wasn't

12:16

really any, you know, action,

12:16

anything traction, you get you

12:20

get on. So I met this guy who

12:20

had, did you know that mining is

12:26

the worst thing we do on this planet?

12:28

I know that there's

12:28

definitely some some major

12:32

issues with different mining

12:32

practices.

12:34

I didn't know that until Until recently, that if you look at

12:36

the biodiversity loss to carbon

12:40

production, the indigenous

12:40

community displacements, the

12:45

people that died doing the

12:45

activity, it is the worst thing

12:49

we do. And we know that for

12:49

certainty, because we have 1000s

12:54

of years of experience. So this

12:54

guy came up to me with this

12:58

idea, I wish I was aware of the

12:58

polymetallic nodules that have

13:03

formed on the bottom of the

13:03

Pacific Ocean. I've got one over

13:06

there. Let's see if I can go get it.

13:07

Yeah, that'd be very cool.

13:10

Yeah,

13:10

these these nodules are,

13:14

at this point, Greg

13:14

actually went off to go and grab

13:17

one of these nodules. And you

13:17

can see in the video, this

13:19

strange nodule metallic looking

13:19

substance that is straight off

13:24

the bottom of the ocean floor.

13:24

I'll let Greg describe it a

13:26

little bit. But if you want to

13:26

see the full video of our

13:29

interview, and this little

13:29

snippet, that'll be on our

13:32

public place network video page,

13:32

where you can see all of the

13:35

video interviews and all of the

13:35

video content that we have for

13:38

this podcast. Now for season

13:38

two. They were

13:42

first

13:42

found in the 1800s during

13:44

something called the Challenger

13:44

expedition, which was the first

13:47

oceanographic expedition ever.

13:47

And the British had fitted a gun

13:53

boat and traveled around the

13:53

world for two years and to try

13:56

to find out a little bit about

13:56

the ocean and they put pull

13:59

these things up. Can you see it?

13:59

Yeah, whoa. And they're like a

14:05

pearl Dave, they they sit on the

14:05

seafloor, and they they

14:09

accumulate atoms of what's in

14:09

the seawater like a pearl does,

14:15

very slowly. This is probably 10

14:15

million years old. Every element

14:20

on the periodic table that you

14:20

learned in high school is in the

14:23

ocean, it's it's in solution in

14:23

the ocean, in different forms.

14:27

And these nodules form and they

14:27

reflect the relative abundances

14:31

of the elements in the area of

14:31

which they form. And it turns

14:36

out in certain places,

14:36

especially about halfway between

14:41

Mexico and why there's a very

14:41

high concentration of nickel,

14:46

cobalt, manganese, and copper,

14:46

which are all the metals we need

14:50

for all these electric cars that

14:50

are coming up you right, which

14:54

which is a it's between a 600

14:54

and 1,000% increase in demand

14:59

over the next 1020 years. Now,

14:59

if you go to a terrestrial

15:03

solution for this, you're

15:03

looking at 1% grades of nickel

15:08

laterites. We've already taken

15:08

all the high grades out pretty

15:12

quickly and there's zero waste

15:12

in this this is 100% reusable

15:17

metal and what's not met Oh is

15:17

non toxic and perfect additive

15:22

for cement? There's no way

15:22

swears, you know, in the

15:25

traditional mining industry,

15:25

it's 99% waste. And you end up

15:29

with these, you have a mountain,

15:29

you take down and you use 1% of

15:34

the mountain and the rest of the

15:34

mountain, you've got to do

15:37

something like that. It's just,

15:37

it's, it's just horrible. And we

15:42

we offshore these activities to

15:42

developing countries, because,

15:46

you know, we don't want to have

15:46

them in California here. So why

15:49

not put them down in some place

15:49

in Africa or Indonesia, we're

15:53

not going to see it. And there's

15:53

very little oversight. So this

15:57

was a solution. And you can find

15:57

enough of these things and an

16:00

area less than 1% of the bottom

16:00

of the sea floor to supply the

16:05

humanity for hundreds of years.

16:07

Until really,

16:07

they're that that plentiful.

16:10

Yeah.

16:10

It's like cobblestones, I can

16:12

show you pictures, what they

16:12

look, wow. They're very, very

16:16

dense. And we can get these into

16:16

a closed loop material. We're in

16:21

a material crisis, that this guy

16:21

got a Nobel award for the

16:25

chemistry a few months ago. And

16:25

he said, This is not a question

16:29

about supply shortages here. And

16:29

there. He said, This is a

16:33

question about lack of atoms and

16:33

molecules of everything. He

16:38

says, we're running out of

16:38

everything. And we've got to

16:41

really rethink how we're going

16:41

to do this. So this technique

16:46

allows you to project a period

16:46

of extraction, which would be

16:51

20 3040 years and then a period

16:51

where you can close the loop

16:55

because you can't destroy an

16:55

atom. Atoms are perfectly

16:58

recyclable, especially battery

16:58

metals and battery metals. And

17:03

other metals are absolutely

17:03

essential for the new renewable

17:06

energy future, we must we must

17:06

embrace. Otherwise, we're

17:11

doomed, right? This to me seemed

17:11

like the most tangible, nitty

17:16

gritty hands on thing I could

17:16

get involved with to stop this

17:22

direction we're headed in, you

17:22

know, I was in Paris as a

17:25

science advisement that climate

17:25

summit. You know, we haven't we

17:28

haven't, we haven't stopped

17:28

since then we're still

17:30

increasing our co2 emissions.

17:30

And a guy did a paper the other

17:35

day, and he said, If we continue

17:35

to do that, it's going to be 150

17:39

degrees on this planet about 200

17:39

years. I mean, and you look

17:43

around you, there's these

17:43

monster tornados in Kentucky,

17:46

there's no lobsters left in Cape

17:46

Cod, the Gulf Stream slowing

17:50

down. upwelling is beginning to

17:50

stop, the planet is coming and

17:56

done in terms of us things that

17:56

we liked, the it'll always be

17:59

here, they'll always be life,

17:59

they'll always be things going

18:02

on. But in terms of the kind of

18:02

environment that we enjoy as

18:05

people, and we have occupied

18:05

this planet, now, it's no longer

18:09

Earth, like it was 300 years

18:09

ago, now it's a new earth,

18:13

people or something, give it a

18:13

new name. This guy came up with

18:18

my book launch, when I published

18:18

my book solvency in the age of

18:21

the algorithm. And he had

18:21

researched me, she chased me

18:25

down and he said, he wanted to

18:25

pursue this industry. It's

18:29

regulated by the UN. It's been

18:29

in development for 30 years,

18:33

it's got a regulatory, it's got

18:33

everything you want. It's even

18:37

got a system for sharing

18:37

resources with poor people.

18:42

There's an off take the top of

18:42

the structure that goes into a

18:45

pool, that is then redistributed

18:45

to try to ease away at this

18:49

north south divide, it's not

18:49

going to solve it, but it's one

18:52

way to begin to get at it. And I

18:52

knew he was going to take help

18:56

from the environmental

18:56

community. Because it says it's,

19:00

it's, it's called,

19:01

as you're saying,

19:01

mining is a hard sell. And it it

19:05

has it has quite the reputation.

19:05

Yeah, it sounds like it's quite

19:08

different than an open pit. Mine

19:08

typically would be. I mean, we

19:11

were not unfamiliar to that up

19:11

here in Canada as well. But what

19:15

are the main things that the

19:15

environmental movement, I guess,

19:18

is pointing to with this? And

19:18

how, how do you address it?

19:22

Well,

19:22

first thing I had to do was he asked me to join the company and help

19:24

because he knew he was going to

19:28

need somebody like me to give

19:28

him cover, because I had a

19:30

reputation. And people knew that

19:30

I was a conservationist and, and

19:35

all that. So I said, I said,

19:35

okay, and he said, You got to

19:40

keep in mind, this is a one way

19:40

street for you. And I said, you

19:43

have to keep in mind that if I

19:43

find someone I like I'm gonna

19:46

leave and that's not gonna.

19:46

That's not going to be very good

19:50

for you. Yeah. And he said, if

19:50

you find something, you know,

19:52

like, I'll be right behind you.

19:52

So I felt like I was with the

19:55

right people. And I gave a

19:55

speech in Abu Dhabi three years

20:00

ago at the economist ocean

20:00

Summit, where it was the first

20:02

time scientists like me, someone

20:02

who has some credibility in the

20:06

environmental community stood up

20:06

and said, you know, we must do

20:10

this, you know, and all my

20:10

colleagues were all saying, no,

20:16

no, no, don't do it. Can't do

20:16

it. Can't do it. They weren't I

20:19

found any alternatives, it would

20:19

just say, Don't do that, you

20:22

know? And that's not acceptable.

20:22

You can't say no, without saying

20:28

do this instead. Because if you

20:28

just keep saying no, you don't

20:32

go anywhere, and boy, were they

20:32

mad at me. I mean, I've got

20:36

every day that I've got every

20:36

award, they give for diving and

20:40

conservation over there, I can't

20:40

even keep them on the shelf,

20:43

there's so many of them. And

20:43

over the years, so, so I had the

20:48

credibility to take this

20:48

position. And I don't know

20:52

what's wrong with them. They're, they're just, they're just, they're just blind to a

20:54

planetary perspective, you've

20:57

got to have a planetary

20:57

perspective, you can't look at

21:01

square meter of seafloor and

21:01

say, if you pick this nodule up,

21:04

you're going to kill these three

21:04

worms, therefore don't do it.

21:07

You know, that's, that's just

21:07

not the way it works. Everything

21:12

we do has an impact. So we're at

21:12

a point now where we need to

21:15

find out what what are the least

21:15

impacts for the way forward and

21:19

take those. And this to me

21:19

clearly, is that we're still

21:23

getting held. We had Greenpeace

21:23

out 1000 miles offshore, this

21:28

site, by the ways in

21:28

international waters 1000 miles

21:31

offshore, and Greenpeace was out

21:31

there spray painting or boat or

21:35

research boat, this wasn't even

21:35

a commercial, really, we're out

21:38

there doing research trying to

21:38

do the environmental impact

21:41

assessment about whether or not

21:41

this can be done. We still

21:45

haven't decided whether we're

21:45

going to do it. We're doing the

21:48

research to and I used to work

21:48

with Greenpeace, I use the

21:52

Rainbow Warrior early in my

21:52

career. David, one of the

21:55

founders, I dated the gal that

21:55

named the Rainbow Warrior. I

21:58

mean, I know how I know their

21:58

culture. And I said to him, I

22:02

said, God, don't you guys have

22:02

something better to do? You're

22:08

out here trying to stop

22:08

something that's good. Go take

22:10

your boat and run it back and

22:10

forth in front of the

22:12

Mississippi River and draw

22:12

people's attention to reactive

22:16

nitrogen and phosphorus is

22:16

pouring out of that every day,

22:19

and killing the ocean. And I

22:19

gave him about five or six other

22:22

things that are unattended.

22:22

Instead, they're off trying to

22:25

stop something unneeded should

22:25

be done. Because it's flashy.

22:29

And it gives, right. Anyway,

22:29

it's so I spent the last couple

22:33

of years I didn't think I'd have

22:33

to do it. But I've been back

22:36

into publishing papers, science

22:36

papers about this, trying to

22:39

explain it in science terms. And

22:39

I just hope that we get over

22:43

this knot, and we can disrupt

22:43

the mining industry in this

22:48

direction, because if we do I

22:48

think back of the envelope

22:51

calculation, it's about 30 to

22:51

40% of what needs to be done on

22:54

this planet. Now, as soon as

22:54

possible if we have any slim

22:58

chance of getting out of this

22:58

mess we're in. And this is a

23:02

substantial solution. And it's

23:02

being held up by the

23:05

environmental community.

23:07

Do you think it's

23:07

being held up primarily because

23:09

it's a new industry, and it's so

23:09

flashy, or because people hear

23:14

mining and they, they just

23:14

assumed that we don't know

23:18

enough about the oceans yet to

23:18

be able to do this. With knowing

23:23

the impacts.

23:24

I

23:24

mean, backing up a little bit,

23:26

they do have cause to have

23:26

concern, because in the past,

23:31

industry has lied to us. They've

23:31

said, Hey, don't worry about

23:34

we'll take care of it, and they

23:34

didn't. But what these folks

23:38

don't realize is that since that

23:38

time, there's some sociological

23:42

psychological science around the

23:42

fact that our frameworks and our

23:47

minds, the way we look at the

23:47

world is about 30 years behind

23:50

science and reality. Right?

23:50

They're looking at this through

23:54

like 1970s 1980s thinking. And

23:54

since then we've got the Law of

23:59

the Sea, we got the Convention

23:59

on Biological Diversity, we've

24:02

got a whole bunch of very strong

24:02

treaties that have come into

24:06

place. There's science that

24:06

says, This is not as bad as we

24:11

think. And they're not taking

24:11

that into account. They're

24:14

imagining it's 1970. And this

24:14

company is just rising up out of

24:19

nowhere going to destroy the

24:19

world. You know, right. That's

24:22

kind of their perspective. But I

24:22

think we're at a turning point,

24:26

and we will be able to do this

24:26

and then I can move on. I mean,

24:30

this isn't what I wanted to do

24:30

for the rest of my life. I did

24:32

this really because I wanted to

24:32

give this industry a chance to

24:35

get going exactly. I realized if

24:35

I sort of laid my body across

24:39

it, you know that it might have

24:39

it might have a chance I did was

24:46

able to recruit colleagues to

24:46

join me they're not as high

24:50

profile as I am. But people like

24:50

you know, Jared Diamond is I've

24:54

heard the name yet. Yeah, germs

24:54

and steel. He's a brilliant

24:57

anthropologist, good friend of

24:57

mine. He's outraged at what

25:01

these groups are doing and he's

25:01

gonna write an essay soon and

25:05

and there's a bunch of others

25:05

that feel the same way. It is

25:09

the right path. The arguments

25:09

are just right. I had an

25:12

interesting experience. Last

25:12

week I had a phone call from a

25:14

student I get a lot of phone

25:14

calls from students who want

25:17

advice about their careers. I

25:17

was taking If I can, because I

25:20

figure that's part of my, my job

25:20

as a, as a, as a senior member

25:25

of this discipline. So she said

25:25

to me, Dr. Stone, the reason I

25:29

call is I want to find out how

25:29

you got from where you were to

25:33

where you are now. And I said,

25:33

Okay, so I told her the story.

25:37

And she said, Well, I agree with

25:37

you, you know, she said, I think

25:41

these are the solution. And I

25:41

don't understand why the

25:44

environmental community so

25:44

worked up about it. And I said,

25:48

Well, there you have it. I said,

25:48

By the way, where are you from?

25:52

And she said, I'm from Scripps.

25:52

And I said, Scripps, and who's

25:56

your advisor? She told me and

25:56

her advisors, one of the major

26:00

critics of this. And she said,

26:00

she said, I feel like I'm in a

26:06

madhouse down here. You know,

26:06

these people? Are, they're

26:08

making decisions based on

26:08

getting money,

26:12

based on Yeah,

26:12

based on money and fear. And

26:15

yeah,

26:16

yeah,

26:16

yeah, they're just, they're just

26:18

not thinking clearly, I

26:19

guess to give the

26:19

listeners a bit of a an idea or

26:22

a picture of how this actually

26:22

works. So these nodules are

26:26

sitting on the bottom, it's not

26:26

like you're going to the bottom

26:29

and mining a big pit or a hole

26:29

down there something so I assume

26:34

it's robotics, or could you just

26:34

paint a picture of what this

26:37

actually looks like,

26:38

I can do better than that, I can show you a very short film that

26:39

shows the whole thing and 60s

26:43

Perfect. We go down with a

26:43

there's a ship on the surface.

26:46

And then there's a vehicle on

26:46

the bottom that we haven't come

26:49

up with the word, it's not

26:49

really mining, it's like

26:51

hoovering, or vacuuming or

26:51

something like that. We're not

26:55

destroying, we're not cracking,

26:55

we're not grinding or anything,

26:58

we're just picking rocks up, and

26:58

then they get pulled up to the

27:01

surface, and then they get taken

27:01

to land. And then they get

27:05

processed, and we've got a zero

27:05

carbon budget, and we've got

27:10

zero wastes, you could put this

27:10

next to a nursery school, it

27:14

wouldn't matter. The processing

27:14

of these nodules is so but it's

27:18

a very simple process. And it is

27:18

worth seeing.

27:23

At this point, we

27:23

watched the metals company video

27:25

on their actual production

27:25

system, and how they actually

27:29

are mining or hoovering up these

27:29

nodules from the ocean floor, to

27:34

watch it yourself,

27:35

go

27:35

to the metals company, and it's

27:38

the head video, it should come

27:38

up first, and you just hit play,

27:42

that tells the whole story there

27:42

in like 90 seconds,

27:45

I would definitely

27:45

say to go check out this video,

27:48

it really illustrates what this

27:48

whole mining process would look

27:51

like. And even gets an idea of

27:51

all of these nodules that are

27:55

just sitting on the ocean floor

27:55

that we can use. So go check it

27:59

out of the metals company

27:59

website, there'll be a link in

28:01

the show notes as well.

28:02

But that's pretty much what it looks like down there. You can see out

28:04

really that many? Yeah, it's

28:08

considered a fairly deposit area

28:08

of the seafloor. There's not a

28:12

lot of big animals down there.

28:12

Although the critics claim that

28:16

there's all these important

28:16

microbes, we've had the

28:20

opportunity to work with the

28:20

engineers, as they're designing

28:24

it and optimizing it for what we

28:24

want

28:26

is very, very

28:26

interesting. What is the energy

28:30

source to power all of this? Is

28:30

it primarily wind, renewable,

28:35

we had originally thought that we had to have it near a hydro dam

28:36

or a nuclear plant or something

28:40

like that. But then we realized

28:40

that as long as you're able to

28:43

pump renewable energy into the

28:43

grid somewhere else, right, to

28:47

account for what we use for

28:47

okay, that freed up our location

28:51

search. Yeah, yeah.

28:51

Yeah, it's pretty

28:54

simple. And it makes sense. And the other thing is the timeframe,

28:56

you know, all these electric

28:58

cars that are coming out are

28:58

coming out like tomorrow, and a

29:01

terrestrial mind takes 10 to 15

29:01

years from conception to

29:05

production. So we're gonna miss

29:05

it. We could produce these

29:09

metals next year.

29:10

Wow. That's how

29:10

quickly you could scale up. Yep.

29:14

Yep.

29:14

So this is a solution, the real

29:17

nitty gritty solution. We're not

29:17

just sitting and talking to

29:19

meetings and speculating and

29:19

stuff like that. What's the

29:23

solution?

29:24

Yeah, I got the idea that you're you're a man of action and not a man to just sit

29:26

around and then not move

29:30

forward?

29:31

Yeah,

29:31

yeah. Yeah. Well, I like to

29:34

sleep well at night.

29:39

So I'm curious

29:39

nodules, are they mostly the

29:41

size the one that you have in

29:41

your hand? Or, or do they get

29:44

quite large, this

29:45

is a bit of a larger one. Actually, this size we will leave behind

29:47

by design, because this is a

29:51

place that animals can

29:51

recolonize on there were some

29:54

obligate animals that need

29:54

nodules to live on. So we're at

29:58

15%, behind the ones that we

29:58

want them we're like the size.

30:02

In the recording,

30:02

you can see that Greg den holds

30:05

up a nodule that is just a

30:05

little bit smaller than a ping

30:08

pong ball. So that's the size

30:08

that they're hoping to collect.

30:11

Oh,

30:12

we are in the age of metals. David, the age of oil is passed. And

30:14

now we're in the age of metals

30:17

because with metals array

30:17

Interesting to put in the right

30:21

systems, we can have a renewable

30:21

energy system. That's a closed

30:25

loop in terms of material with,

30:25

you know, no fossil fuels and

30:30

all that. So metals is what it's

30:30

all about.

30:32

Yeah. And I mean,

30:32

it's definitely something that

30:35

I've heard more and more about

30:35

knowing where the metals that

30:40

power or cellphone come from, or

30:40

what goes into your electric

30:44

vehicle and the talk about

30:44

batteries. In my mind, it kind

30:47

of comes down to a number of

30:47

years ago, when, what was the

30:51

movie that blood diamond and

30:51

things like that, and, and how

30:55

they're similar? Very similar.

30:55

Exactly, exactly. But people

30:59

fantasize about diamonds and not

30:59

necessarily about manganese. And

31:03

in copper,

31:04

this is just to the north south divide I was talking about

31:06

earlier, right? The people that

31:09

are against this are sitting in

31:09

offices, much like you and I

31:13

are, you know, we have metal all

31:13

around us, we have a metal car

31:17

outside. Metal is not just about

31:17

batteries, inspect cars, it's

31:21

about bridges, it's about

31:21

buildings. And fully half the

31:24

world is not developed yet,

31:24

right. And we have people

31:28

sitting in these nice offices at

31:28

Stanford, and Scripps, and

31:32

they're very comfortable in

31:32

their lives. And they say, Oh,

31:36

why change anything, don't do

31:36

that. That sounds bad like that.

31:41

They don't think about the

31:41

global equity that we must

31:44

change, sort of to combat that

31:44

or deal with that. I've come to

31:48

the realization that it's about

31:48

education. And it's about

31:52

pulling people from developing

31:52

countries, bringing them up here

31:56

to North America or Europe,

31:56

putting them through school at

31:59

very importantly, at the

31:59

undergraduate level, not the

32:02

graduate level, but the

32:02

undergraduate level. So they can

32:04

can understand how we think and

32:04

how we look at money. And it

32:09

gets very different the way they

32:09

what they do. And I think that

32:14

will help equip them to engage

32:14

in and hopefully sort this out.

32:18

Because until we take care of

32:18

the fellow humans on this

32:21

planet, things will not work.

32:21

Did you know there are 2 billion

32:25

people on the planet that cannot

32:25

afford a bicycle. Wow. Yeah. And

32:29

if they had a bicycle, that

32:29

would change their lives, they

32:32

could get their meager products

32:32

to market faster, and maybe $5

32:37

extra a month. And if they made

32:37

$5 extra month, they can save up

32:41

for school supplies for their

32:41

kid, and they can take their kid

32:45

to school on a bicycle. It's

32:45

transformative. There's a famous

32:48

explanation of what the washing

32:48

machine did for women. It

32:51

completely liberalized them. And

32:51

we just we ignore it, because

32:55

it's so it's so convenient to

32:55

ignore what's happened to most

33:00

of the humanity or half of

33:00

humanity. Because those of us

33:04

that are lucky enough to be on

33:04

this side of the curve, you

33:06

know, why worry. And I was

33:06

flying from I took a helicopter

33:11

ride from San Diego to LAX a

33:11

couple months ago. And that was

33:16

riding right along the

33:16

coastline. I was just looking at

33:18

all the houses. And it was

33:18

obscene the way it was, there

33:22

was houses built, you know, 1234

33:22

up the hillside, and each house

33:29

had a swimming pool, each house

33:29

had an SUV, this each outside of

33:34

that. And there's no way this

33:34

planet can supply that kind of

33:39

lifestyle for everybody. But

33:39

that is what people look at and

33:43

say that's what we want. So I'm

33:43

beginning to think that we need

33:47

to re envision cities probably

33:47

along the coastline, big big

33:53

apartment complexes that are

33:53

safe, that are pleasant and

33:57

concentrate people in those

33:57

places, and then leave open

34:01

areas around them where we can

34:01

have crops growing, we can have

34:05

some wildlife experiences and

34:05

and begin to engineer this

34:08

planet for 10 billion people.

34:08

Because right now, we're not

34:12

doing that we're just

34:12

haphazardly going forward at the

34:16

whim of people's needs, people's

34:16

desires. And those of us in the

34:21

developed world are running the

34:21

show. So I've been and I don't

34:27

know what caused the north south

34:27

divide. I wish I did. I've

34:29

thought about it a lot. I wrote

34:29

about it in my book, my last

34:32

book a little bit. No, no one

34:32

knows. Some people say it's a

34:35

Catholic church. Some people say

34:35

Jared Diamond argues guns, germs

34:40

and steel. It had to do with

34:40

those that have the steel and

34:42

the germs and the guns first.

34:42

But there was a time in history

34:47

where a divide was created. And

34:47

we had these two worlds. The

34:53

reason it's called the north

34:53

south divide is the prime

34:56

minister of Germany in 1980s,

34:56

was looking at a globe in his

35:00

office and he was noticing that

35:00

most of the countries south of

35:04

the equator were undeveloped,

35:04

and most of the countries north

35:07

of the equator were developed.

35:07

And he called it the Brandt

35:10

line. His name was Brandt. And

35:10

that didn't last long. It turned

35:14

over to the north south divide,

35:14

but it's essentially a very,

35:18

very steep inequity between

35:18

societies. And I don't know what

35:24

to do about that, then the

35:24

climate crisis is accelerating

35:28

much faster than we thought.

35:28

Right. And I can attest to that

35:32

firsthand. I've been out looking

35:32

myself diving and I went to the

35:37

Galapagos Islands a few months

35:37

ago for National Geographic is

35:40

one of their guests scientists

35:40

on one of their Lindblad trips,

35:43

and, and I dive there a lot. And

35:43

I was I was kind of on vacation,

35:47

really. But I switched on my my

35:47

science brain. And I started

35:52

looking around and I said,

35:52

Something's not right. The

35:54

Galapagos is where we have the

35:54

most upwelling anywhere in the

35:57

world. That's what drives the

35:57

ocean is bringing this nutrient

36:00

cold, deep sea to, and I saw

36:00

skinny seals, you don't see

36:05

skinny seals and like Guapa

36:05

silence, you know, you can see

36:09

the bones on their back, you

36:09

know, there's, you see the

36:13

vertebra sticking out. In the

36:13

fish biomass was way low, and

36:18

lobsters are gone from Cape Cod

36:18

now, and the Gulf Stream is

36:21

slowing down and the whole

36:21

thermo hay line circulation

36:25

system is beginning to halt. Or

36:25

I do think that we're on the

36:29

verge of collapse, a climate

36:29

collapse. And I think that might

36:33

follow up civilization collapse

36:33

in the next couple of 100 years,

36:37

unless we have some

36:37

technological advances, which we

36:42

could some extraordinary things

36:42

that we could do pumping gases

36:47

up into the upper atmosphere,

36:47

for example, that might cool the

36:50

planet down, there are things

36:50

that we could do that I hope we

36:54

can do them. But the moment the

36:54

best we can do is just keep

36:58

going to these treaty meetings

36:58

and pushing solutions like this

37:02

and doing everything that we

37:02

can. And we should be talking

37:05

about it every day, from morning

37:05

till night. You know, my parents

37:08

were both in World War Two. And

37:08

they told me that during World

37:11

War Two was an existential

37:11

threat to the world. And as a

37:16

result, everybody was focused on

37:16

it, hyper focused on it. And

37:20

that's all we talked about for

37:20

four years was the war. And we

37:25

want it and put that to bed.

37:25

Well, this, this, this thread is

37:28

about 1000 times worse. And

37:28

we're not talking about it. You

37:32

know, it's something that we

37:32

should talk about. And, and I

37:37

have a belief that if we talk

37:37

about it enough, it'll happen.

37:40

So that's why I like podcasts

37:40

like yours, in anything that

37:45

will raise people's awareness of

37:45

this stuff.

37:49

Yeah, that's

37:49

exactly what I love being able

37:52

to speak with people such as

37:52

yourself, who are clearly very

37:56

knowledgeable about these

37:56

things. And I get to learn and

37:59

share this with others as well.

37:59

What would be the number one

38:02

thing that you would like

38:02

listeners to this podcast to

38:05

take away or to take into their

38:05

own life moving forward?

38:09

Yeah, that's a tough one. I get that question asked a lot. When I

38:11

give talks and stuff, everybody

38:14

always says at the end of the

38:14

talk, they raise their hand,

38:17

they say, Well, what can I do?

38:17

You know, I recycled plastic and

38:21

I have electric car. And is that

38:21

enough? And I always say, No,

38:26

it's nowhere near enough. You've

38:26

got to do a lot more. And you

38:29

can't do it all either. I said,

38:29

think about the Earth as a sick

38:33

relative. And it's dying. It's

38:33

having a real hard time. And the

38:38

things that you can do are like

38:38

bringing in a cup of hot tea to

38:41

the to your sick relative by

38:41

these laudable minor

38:46

adjustments. I said, you need to

38:46

hire a doctor who knows how to

38:50

fix this. The Stockholm center

38:50

for resilience is one that I

38:54

like a lot. And there's any

38:54

number of groups around look at

38:58

them carefully, though, make

38:58

sure they're not phonies. In

39:00

their greenwashing. I started

39:00

something called pole to pole

39:03

conservation. Right? Yes, we

39:03

need to talk about that stuff.

39:06

And what I did is a I rethought

39:06

the whole paradigm of how things

39:10

are set up. And I realized that

39:10

we needed to devolve from large

39:15

fingers to small, nimble,

39:15

integrated entities within

39:20

society that ultimately would

39:20

seamlessly become a big part of

39:24

society. This should be not

39:24

something special, it should be

39:27

just who we are. It should be

39:27

built into the fabric of how we

39:31

operate. And I'm writing an

39:31

essay on that right now that's

39:36

going to be part of our annual

39:36

report. So finding the right

39:39

organizations to support you can

39:39

never go wrong by influencing

39:44

politicians. If you can, they

39:44

will listen to you. And if

39:47

there's a piece of public policy

39:47

that will help write a letter

39:51

and tell the guy to support it,

39:51

but in terms of your own

39:54

personal life, focus on the big

39:54

things that are in your life,

39:58

heating your house, driving your

39:58

car, the amount of travel you do

40:03

with carbon released in

40:03

airplanes, don't focus on the

40:06

small stuff, you know, recycling

40:06

plastic bags, it's not going to

40:09

save the world. It makes people

40:09

feel good, but it's not going to

40:13

save the world. That's my advice

40:13

is to be scared. I'm terrified.

40:18

Be scared. but optimistic and

40:18

keep learning, keep listening,

40:22

keep listening to your podcast

40:22

and let that lead to another

40:25

podcast. And there's got to be a

40:25

tipping point that when we talk

40:28

about it, and enough, we will

40:28

all come to the same awareness.

40:32

And that will then I think,

40:32

transform how we do things.

40:36

Because right now we're not

40:36

there. And then there's so many

40:38

rich people in the world, so

40:38

many Uber wealthy people in the

40:41

world that deny climate change,

40:41

they deny all this stuff.

40:46

Because if they didn't deny it,

40:46

how can they live with

40:48

themselves with all that money?

40:48

You know, right? If I had money,

40:53

a lot of money, I don't, I would

40:53

pump it into the developing

40:56

world in a constructive way. You

40:56

can't just give them money, a

41:01

lot of waste, you got to channel

41:01

it through systems. Right now

41:04

I'm working on COVID Relief Fund

41:04

for some developing countries in

41:08

South Pacific. And we're sending

41:08

it through the Ministry of

41:12

Health, making sure people, it's

41:12

used properly, we have to send

41:16

resources to these countries,

41:16

because they don't have enough

41:19

to have a look some day at the

41:19

mean life expectancy of

41:23

countries around the world.

41:23

That's a real eye opener, when I

41:26

first started working in

41:26

Carabosse, this country that

41:29

I've done quite a bit of work.

41:29

And the mean life expectancy was

41:33

46. I think, wow, oh, gosh, I

41:33

started noticing it. I would

41:39

come back after a trip. And I'd

41:39

say, Hey, where's Johnny, you

41:43

know, and they go, Oh, John, Oh,

41:43

Johnny died. And then they go on

41:47

to the next thing. Wait a

41:47

minute, what did you say Johnny

41:50

died? And they say, yeah, what

41:50

happened to him? And they said,

41:54

Oh, Johnny, I don't know, what

41:54

was it with Johnny? Maybe it was

41:58

a heart attack or diabetes? I

41:58

can't remember. They're so

42:01

accepting of it and used to it,

42:01

you know, right. That it's,

42:05

it's, it's, it's, it's sad. But

42:05

it's an indicator, our expected

42:11

life expectancy keeps going up.

42:11

I think the developed world is

42:15

now 76 or 80, something like

42:15

that. Care abouts gone up to

42:20

they're up to 55. Now, but

42:20

that's a real telltale sign of

42:24

conditions, because the reason

42:24

it slow is they don't get

42:27

regular health checks. They

42:27

don't have hospitals that are

42:30

adequate. And that's a

42:30

humanitarian problem. I don't

42:34

know why the world ended up the

42:34

way it did. It should have Why

42:36

didn't Why didn't and then an

42:36

end up with equal development

42:39

all around, you know, right.

42:39

It's just like, why did we end

42:44

up with this big divide?

42:47

Absolutely

42:47

perplexing, because it doesn't

42:49

seem to be rooted in anything

42:49

obvious at all?

42:53

Well, yeah, I wrote about it a little bit. In my book, I argued that

42:55

countries with with maritime

42:58

capability early got an

42:58

advantage. And then Vantage has

43:02

not been reset that could be

43:02

wrong. Other people have argued

43:06

the Catholic Church has been a

43:06

big inhibitor of growth in

43:10

especially South America.

43:10

There's a lot of theories about

43:13

it. But it makes no sense that

43:13

the United States is the way it

43:18

is. And then you go one foot

43:18

over a border, and you're in a

43:20

completely different universe,

43:20

you know, Canada and America,

43:24

we've sort of, we're sort of the

43:24

same thing. You know, we're same

43:28

culture, same economic system. I

43:28

don't know. There's a gal that I

43:33

met you might want to try to

43:33

get, I can introduce you to her.

43:37

Her name is Aurora, and she was

43:37

a mid level auditor at the UN 35

43:42

years old. And she noticed that

43:42

the UN had this enormous foreign

43:47

aid budget that was mostly being

43:47

spent for internal un offices

43:52

and executive salaries and

43:52

stuff. So she ran for Secretary

43:57

General, it turns out, you can

43:57

run for Secretary General,

44:00

there's nothing to stop you from

44:00

doing it. Well, no one had ever

44:03

done that before, though,

44:03

because it's sort of run like

44:08

the old Soviet Union. You have

44:08

one person who's the Secretary

44:11

General. And then he figures out

44:11

who the next Secretary General

44:14

is going to be. And she tried to

44:14

disrupt that she got on the

44:17

ballot, and New York Times wrote

44:17

her up New Yorker wrote her up,

44:21

and they decided to cancel the

44:21

elections that year. But her

44:25

agenda was simple. And I liked

44:25

it. She said to me, Greg, the

44:29

agenda should be everybody in

44:29

the world has access to

44:32

education, and everybody in the

44:32

world has access to the

44:34

internet. And with those two

44:34

things, that has a chance of

44:39

balancing things out, because

44:39

you can do business now on the

44:42

internet, you know, if you're in

44:42

a remote area, and this this

44:46

meta, what's it called the meta

44:48

know something?

44:48

Yeah, the new Facebook thing,

44:50

right?

44:51

I don't know if it's Facebook, but it's a world that you live in,

44:53

and you can conduct business in

44:56

it and do things, right. That's

44:56

a business you could start on an

45:00

atoll out in the middle of

45:00

nowhere, you know? So that's a

45:04

good agenda, education and

45:04

internet for everybody. It's

45:08

simple. You can get you can get

45:08

your arms around it. So there's

45:12

a lot of things out there and

45:12

I'm glad that you're concerned.

45:15

You're aware you're a smart guy.

45:18

Just trying Just

45:18

trying to soak up as much as I

45:21

can from credible individuals

45:21

such as yourself.

45:24

What

45:24

motivated you? Did you? Were

45:27

your parents very moral people

45:27

or

45:30

did Yeah, I think

45:30

my parents were very moral

45:33

people and very much supported

45:33

me to follow where my

45:36

curiosities led, and where my

45:36

passions lead. I've been a very,

45:41

very fortunate to have had the

45:41

past experiences that I've had

45:45

and been able to work in an

45:45

industry to be involved with

45:49

projects where I get to ask

45:49

questions and be involved in the

45:54

decision making process, but

45:54

also get to learn more about our

45:57

natural environment, and be able

45:57

to ask questions that we as a

46:03

population want to know about

46:03

how our environment is doing.

46:07

I've been fortunate enough to

46:07

have that support to be able to

46:10

do this. And I've been blown

46:10

away with the reception to

46:13

providing a podcast ID I have to

46:13

say what it was, I was very

46:16

nervous at the beginning. And I

46:16

still get nervous as well and

46:20

just cold call emailing people,

46:20

and then speaking with him about

46:23

topics that I am not very

46:23

familiar with myself. But I

46:27

think it's by pushing yourself

46:27

and expanding and going into

46:30

places where you're not

46:30

necessarily comfortable in

46:32

asking questions where you don't

46:32

know the answers and are open to

46:37

learning. That's where you can

46:37

show that it's okay to ask

46:40

questions, and it's okay to not

46:40

know and to learn. And by

46:44

sharing that experience with

46:44

others, I think it's a more

46:46

genuine experience for a

46:46

listener and, and for people who

46:50

want to learn as well. It's more

46:50

open and inviting, and to show

46:53

that it's okay not to know and

46:53

it's okay to learn.

46:56

Is your business model working.

47:00

My business model

47:00

with the podcast? Yeah, I mean,

47:03

I'm not from the revenue point

47:03

of view, my whole goal was not

47:06

to turn this into a business, if

47:06

it eventually did have support,

47:10

then that would be phenomenal.

47:10

But for me, this is about me

47:14

learning and about me being able

47:14

to start sharing what I'm

47:18

learning and being able to reach

47:18

an audience that does not

47:21

necessarily know about these

47:21

different issues and to help

47:24

spread the word. And I think to

47:24

a certain degree, I see this as

47:27

the next step within my role

47:27

within science. As someone who

47:32

has a basic foundation in some

47:32

concepts within science, it can

47:36

be quite daunting to those who

47:36

don't have that background to

47:40

even know where to begin with

47:40

asking questions. And I think we

47:44

should all be trying to expand

47:44

the world of everyone else, and

47:47

be able to have these

47:47

discussions and to spread this

47:50

knowledge around. And for me,

47:50

it's just been a pleasure, just

47:54

learning. And I've been having

47:54

so much fun learning the

47:56

backside of the podcast and the

47:56

organization of it and getting

48:00

to speak with individuals, such

48:00

as yourself, it affords me that

48:03

opportunity, which is a

48:03

wonderful for myself, and just

48:06

even hearing from some of the

48:06

listeners, and I'm sure you also

48:09

have a podcast, which I was

48:09

going to ask you about as well.

48:11

But for me, at least hearing

48:11

back from some of the listeners

48:15

who I haven't met, or people

48:15

that I I've known from many

48:20

years ago that have been going

48:20

through hard times and hearing

48:23

how much that they've gained

48:23

from the podcast. And with me

48:27

not even being aware that

48:27

they're listening, and how how

48:30

much they've they've been taking

48:30

from it, it's it's been a very,

48:33

very enriching experience. And

48:33

I'm excited to see where it

48:38

continues to grow to

48:39

what kind of what kind of audience you have.

48:42

Primarily it's the

48:42

demographic is typically between

48:47

20 and 40. And typically, it's

48:47

individuals that most do have a

48:53

bit of a scientific background.

48:53

But my idea is to try to target

48:57

those who don't have a

48:57

scientific background, or don't

49:00

have post secondary education,

49:00

and how to distill these

49:03

concepts down to bite sized

49:03

understandings. And then, if

49:07

people are interested in then

49:07

they can listen to the entire

49:09

conversations with the experts

49:09

as well to expand their

49:12

knowledge on that and see where

49:12

it goes from there.

49:14

Great.

49:14

Well, I like you and keep doing

49:16

what you're doing. You can count

49:16

on me for future interactions.

49:22

Should you need it.

49:22

Wonderful. Thank

49:22

you so much. Yeah. Do you have

49:26

anywhere where you would like

49:26

listeners to learn more about

49:29

the metals company? Or do your

49:29

podcasts? Would you like to put

49:32

in a little promotion there for any event?

49:34

Oh,

49:34

thank you. I'd be happy to tell

49:37

people about this foundation

49:37

that I've co founded called pole

49:41

to pole conservation. Great.

49:43

Yes,

49:43

it's

49:43

a different kind of thing. It's

49:46

small. We don't have money, you

49:46

know, pay executive salaries,

49:50

most of the leadership

49:50

volunteers. We do pay people. In

49:55

other words, our overhead is

49:55

very low. The money that you put

49:57

in here goes to the problem. And

49:57

we're sending kids to college,

50:03

which I think is one of the most

50:03

significant things you can do.

50:06

We're also working on naturally

50:06

heat resistant corals, which I

50:10

think could be the future of

50:10

coral reefs in the world. And

50:14

then we're engaging in

50:14

opportunities that come along

50:17

with the sea is significant.

50:17

It's a new way of doing business

50:21

in the NGO world. It's not the

50:21

bingo, we're nimble, we're

50:24

small, we're smart,

50:26

we're results driven,

50:28

we will make the most out of contributions that people make,

50:30

you can be rest assured of that

50:33

I think our overhead is probably

50:33

going to be around less than 5%.

50:37

And that's just paying like

50:37

accountants and stuff like that.

50:42

That's something I'd like to

50:42

pass on. I'd like to pass on for

50:44

people to be open minded,

50:44

they're going to hear a lot of

50:47

propaganda, but deep sea mining,

50:47

and it is propaganda, and have

50:53

them dig in and read and learn

50:53

themselves and make a decision.

50:57

And don't just listen to what

50:57

people are telling, because

51:00

there are people, I don't know

51:00

why they do it. But they are

51:03

protecting their careers or

51:03

their previous statements or

51:08

whatever. They're not thinking

51:08

globally, they're not thinking

51:10

about us, they're not thinking

51:10

about you, they're thinking

51:13

about themselves. They don't

51:13

have the awareness where they

51:16

should be. Those are the main

51:16

things is please learn. And this

51:21

is one very timely issue which

51:21

we could use your help on, and

51:25

that your helped me Don't sign

51:25

moratoriums, they've set up a

51:29

moratorium regime, which is

51:29

designed to kill the industry,

51:32

they will tell you that, but

51:32

that's what it's designed to do.

51:34

They say, oh, you should wait 10

51:34

years and then learn more about

51:40

the ocean and then do this. And

51:40

well, anybody in their right

51:44

mind knows that in 10 years,

51:44

there's not going to be any

51:46

investors. And the world will

51:46

have gone on to another

51:50

solution, which is like digging

51:50

up half of Indonesia. And

51:54

they're not they're not honest

51:54

about that. I'm very

51:56

disappointed in their their

51:56

ethics. That's what I'd like the

51:59

listeners to be aware of, and

51:59

have them think a lot about

52:03

people in the world that we

52:03

share on this little teeny

52:06

planet. If you look at those

52:06

pictures from outerspace man

52:09

that that atmosphere is razor

52:09

thin, and we have completely

52:13

polluted it. And we've got to

52:13

stop. It's out of control. So

52:19

the it's optimistic, but it's

52:19

urgent. People don't often don't

52:22

know what to do, though, I know

52:22

that. So if they don't know what

52:26

to do, if they have resources,

52:26

find a group that's good, and

52:32

give them some money, so that

52:32

they can operate, if they can

52:36

actually take actions in their

52:36

lives, do that. But do something

52:41

everybody needs to do something

52:41

doesn't have to be climate,

52:44

everybody should follow their

52:44

passion. If hunger is what it is

52:48

do hunger, it's women's rights

52:48

to women's rights, whatever it

52:52

is, do something every day, and

52:52

the world will change. Don't be

52:58

passive.

53:00

I couldn't have

53:00

said it better myself. That is

53:03

quite the statement to leave on.

53:03

Greg, this has been an amazing

53:06

conversation. Thank you so much

53:06

for speaking with me that I've

53:10

learned so much. And this has

53:10

been such an enriching

53:13

conversation. Yeah,

53:14

I've enjoyed it today. But I really have.

53:22

Thank you so much

53:22

for listening to today's deep

53:25

dive episode with Dr. Greg

53:25

Stone, where we talked all about

53:28

exploring the ocean, finding out

53:28

what's deep down there, how to

53:32

solve the north south divide,

53:32

and all about polymetallic

53:37

nodules and how we can use them

53:37

for electric vehicle batteries.

53:41

Thank you so much to Dr. Greg

53:41

Stone for speaking with us for

53:44

the podcast. It was a fantastic

53:44

conversation. I'm so excited to

53:48

see what happens with the metals

53:48

company. And when we can start

53:52

actually putting these

53:52

polymetallic nodules into

53:55

electric vehicle batteries and

53:55

into vehicles. You can learn

53:59

more about the metals company

53:59

and Dr. Greg [email protected].

54:03

They've got some great video content where you can really visualize what we've been

54:05

talking about, of these

54:08

polymetallic nodules in the

54:08

bottom of the ocean and

54:10

hoovering them up to be able to

54:10

bring them to the surface and

54:13

then take them into vehicles and

54:13

make a closed loop system. Take

54:18

a look. It'll make a lot more

54:18

sense there. Dr. Greg Stone also

54:21

has a podcast. So if you like

54:21

this, check his out. It's called

54:25

The C has many voices and can be

54:25

found on Google, Apple, podcast,

54:30

Spotify, you name it, it's

54:30

everywhere. Be sure to check it

54:33

out. I'm the host and producer

54:33

David Evans. And I just like to

54:36

thank the rest of the team,

54:36

specifically Paul Polman, Lee

54:39

Burton, and the rest of the

54:39

aquatic biosphere board. Thanks

54:43

for all of your help. And to

54:43

learn more about the aquatic

54:46

biosphere project and what we're

54:46

doing right here in Alberta

54:49

telling the story of water, you

54:49

can check us out at aquatic

54:52

biosphere.ca. And we also have

54:52

launched our new media company,

54:57

ABN aquatic biosphere network,

54:57

which you can find that the

55:02

public place dot online and

55:02

search for the aquatic biosphere

55:06

network channel where we will

55:06

actually be posting all of the

55:09

video episodes that we're going

55:09

to be creating this year. So

55:13

tune in. They will be out for

55:13

the next little while but very

55:16

excited to start sharing video

55:16

content as well of our interview

55:20

Make sure you're subscribed

55:20

because the next topic that

55:23

we're diving into is medicine

55:23

from the sea, the ocean as our

55:28

future pharmacy, what we can

55:28

learn from the ocean creatures

55:32

and how we can use them for

55:32

modern medicine. You will want

55:36

to miss it. If you have any

55:36

questions or comments about the

55:39

show, we'd love to hear them.

55:39

Email us at conservation at

55:42

aquatic biosphere.org. Please

55:42

don't forget to like, share and

55:47

subscribe. Leave us a review. It

55:47

really helps us out. Thanks and

55:51

it's been a splash