0:25

Welcome to today's

0:25

deep dive episode today. We're

0:28

talking all things horseshoe

0:28

crab. So horseshoe crabs, why

0:33

should I care? And what does

0:33

that have anything to do with

0:37

the medical industry, horseshoe

0:37

crab blood is uniquely sensitive

0:42

to bacteria. It's so sensitive,

0:42

in fact that it actually is

0:46

being used as the number one

0:46

test to be able to understand if

0:50

a biomedical instrument will be

0:50

able to be implanted in the body

0:54

or not. So we actually use a lot

0:54

of horseshoe crab blood to test

0:58

for contaminants. Annually, we

0:58

bleed about 600,000 horseshoe

1:03

crabs simply to just use their

1:03

blood to test for contaminants.

1:08

And this along with the industry

1:08

of actually catching horseshoe

1:10

crabs to use them as bait to

1:10

catch other fish has led to a

1:14

big decrease in the population

1:14

of horseshoe crabs along the

1:17

eastern seaboard of the United

1:17

States, which has led to a huge

1:21

decrease in a lot of other

1:21

species, as this is a keystone

1:24

species that supports the life

1:24

of basically the entire

1:27

ecosystem. So today, we're

1:27

talking with Dr. Larry Niles,

1:31

from the horseshoe crab recovery

1:31

coalition. We'll be learning all

1:35

about the sustainability of this

1:35

industry, the ecosystem effects

1:38

and why we should actually care

1:38

and also about the synthetic

1:42

alternative that we aren't using

1:42

right now. I mean, it's crazy.

1:46

We're still bleeding crabs so

1:46

that we can test medical

1:49

devices. How is this affecting

1:49

so sit back relax and get ready

1:54

to learn a little bit about

1:54

horseshoe crabs? That sir G.

2:10

nippy oh me No, in zero to marry

2:10

a child why water we doing? And

2:37

how can we do better? Your one

2:37

stop shop for everything water

2:43

related from discussing water

2:43

its use and the organisms that

2:48

depend on it for all the global

2:48

issues that you really never

2:52

knew all had to do with water.

2:52

I'm your host, David Evans from

2:57

the aquatic biosphere project.

2:57

And I just want to ask you

3:00

something. What are we doing?

3:00

How can we do better?

3:15

Hi there and welcome to another

3:15

deep dive episode of the water

3:18

we doing Podcast. Today. I'm

3:18

speaking with Dr. Larry Niles,

3:22

from the horseshoe crab recovery

3:22

coalition. So Larry, do you mind

3:26

just introducing yourself giving

3:26

our listeners a little bit about

3:30

yourself and the horseshoe crab

3:30

recovery coalition.

3:33

So

3:33

I am a partner in a small group

3:37

called Wildlife Restoration

3:37

partnerships that focuses on

3:41

research and primarily on

3:41

shorebirds, particularly the red

3:45

dot and horseshoe crab. But we

3:45

also do management of beaches

3:50

for horseshoe crab spawning

3:50

habitat, and other reasons

3:54

resiliency and so on our work

3:54

centers in Delaware Bay, but we

3:59

do work from the Canadian

3:59

Arctic, you know, in the area of

4:03

Southampton Island to Victoria

4:03

Island. And we've done work in

4:08

Mangan islands in Quebec. But we

4:08

also do work all the way south.

4:13

We've done work and turned off

4:13

way ago, Chile and we have a

4:16

project now and go into Pash

4:16

Brazil. So you know, we do a lot

4:21

of work on shorebird slept

4:21

because we are sort of home base

4:25

is Delaware Bay. It's a lot

4:25

about horseshoe crabs because

4:29

Delaware Bay is one of the top

4:29

world stopovers for Arctic

4:34

nesting shorebirds who you know

4:34

make these dramatically long

4:38

distance migrations down to

4:38

turtle fly go 10,000 mile

4:44

journey and then a on their way

4:44

back. They have to cross the

4:48

ocean to get back to North

4:48

America, deplete all their

4:52

resources because they're flying

4:52

up there seven days at a time

4:56

and then they arrive in Delaware

4:56

Bay and they are ecological

4:59

circumstances they arrived just

4:59

as horseshoe crabs start

5:03

spawning on the bay beaches.

5:03

They lay pony eggs in clusters

5:08

about six inches deep but

5:08

there's so many crabs that after

5:13

a certain amount of spawning

5:13

every new crab that comes in to

5:17

lay eggs digs up the eggs of

5:17

Another crab so they come up to

5:21

the surface and and that way the

5:21

birds can eat them and their

5:25

eggs so they birds quickly gain

5:25

weight on Edit time in spring

5:29

when all the natural resources

5:29

are at their lowest level, these

5:33

eggs allow them to build weight

5:33

at, you know, the highest rates

5:37

in the world. Some birds we've

5:37

caught and recaptured have

5:41

gained in that just that

5:41

intervening period 15 grams a

5:46

day. And when they arrive in

5:46

Delaware Bay, they're only about

5:49

120 grams. So 15 grams a day

5:49

very quickly, they get up to the

5:55

weight that they need to go on

5:55

to the Arctic, where they have

5:58

enough fat that they can start

5:58

nesting and lay eggs. And then

6:02

by the time the chicks hatch,

6:02

the Arctic is thawed and then

6:07

you know, life goes on. So the

6:07

idea of the crab horseshoe crab

6:12

recovery coalition, we started

6:12

out trying to build the

6:16

resources for protection of

6:16

crabs and Delaware Bay. But then

6:21

we quickly realized that there's

6:21

network of people that already

6:25

exist, they care about crabs, in

6:25

all the places where they now

6:30

breed. So very small populations

6:30

that go from Florida to almost

6:36

domaine, but see all of those

6:36

populations have suffered the

6:40

same threat that Delaware Bay is

6:40

threatened by which is

6:44

overharvest for bait fishers

6:44

will use crabs for bait to catch

6:50

bait fish, they use bait to

6:50

catch bait. The main problem is

6:55

the crabs are also bled for the

6:55

biochemical lysate. And that is

7:02

an unregulated industry that is

7:02

just creating havoc and all the

7:06

small populations along the

7:06

coast. So our strategy here is

7:12

to try to work with groups all

7:12

along the coast sort of bind us

7:17

together with this common thread

7:17

and try to rebuild population to

7:22

the Delaware Bay level, but all

7:22

along the coast. So essentially,

7:27

we want to reestablish this

7:27

historic resource for shorebirds

7:32

that once existed, but now is

7:32

lost because all these

7:35

populations are over harvest.

7:37

That is Yeah,

7:37

that's a it just strikes me as

7:42

thinking of these horseshoe

7:42

crabs almost as the only

7:45

truckstop along the way between

7:45

Chile and the Arctic and the the

7:50

main refueling station. And

7:50

yeah, it's it's it's a super,

7:56

it's really interesting. So

7:56

myself on now is quite young. I

8:03

have fond memories of being down

8:03

in Florida visiting family and

8:07

finding horseshoe crabs that had

8:07

washed up on the beach, and just

8:11

thinking they were the absolute

8:11

strangest things I've ever seen.

8:15

So do you mind just for those

8:15

who may not be familiar with a

8:19

horseshoe crab? Could you just

8:19

describe them, and what they

8:24

look like and where they can be

8:24

found?

8:27

Sure.

8:27

First of all, they're 425

8:30

million year old species. So

8:30

they've been around the block

8:35

and they look like it. The goal

8:35

here isn't to save the crabs

8:41

because you know, they're going

8:41

to be here long after humans are

8:44

lost. So the goal is to try to

8:44

build up the populations to make

8:48

them more robust. So the crabs

8:48

are, you know, roughly about

8:53

dish size, the males are smaller

8:53

females could get to the size of

8:59

a baseball home plate. The males

8:59

could also get fairly large, but

9:04

they're that size differences

9:04

consistent throughout the whole

9:09

range. They vary in size as you

9:09

go north. The populations are

9:14

more or less genetically

9:14

defined, but there's a lot of

9:18

overlap. So it's hard to say you

9:18

know, this crab is from Delaware

9:22

Bay or that crab is from

9:22

somewhere else. They typically

9:26

need a sandy substrate to dig

9:26

their eggs which is about six

9:32

inches down. But they've also

9:32

laid eggs in Shell rakes like

9:37

you know, oyster piles of oyster

9:37

shells and they also nest in

9:42

Marsh marks. The difference is

9:42

the productivity like the

9:48

productivity of a nest of eggs

9:48

laid in Marsh mark is very low

9:54

because the decomposing marks

9:54

give off sulfurous you know air

10:00

that kills the eggs, so you get

10:00

very low survival in the shell

10:05

rakes. The survival is probably

10:05

good but they have difficulty

10:09

digging into the brakes. So

10:09

sandy beaches are the best

10:13

habitat. We've done a lot of

10:13

work constructing beaches for

10:18

horseshoe crabs spawning and for

10:18

people and the best beaches are

10:24

about two feet deep of sand so

10:24

that there's lots of room for

10:28

them to dig but also, there's a

10:28

substantial area, buffering them

10:33

from whatever underlies the

10:33

sand, in most places, Muck

10:39

underlies sand. So, you know,

10:39

you got to worry about those

10:43

hydrogen sulfide gases, so they

10:43

don't use it and they need low

10:47

energy. You don't usually see

10:47

crabs spawning on Atlantic coast

10:53

beaches because there's too much

10:53

wave action. But like it inlets,

10:57

you know, you have a sandy spit.

10:57

And then behind that Tandy spit

11:01

is really the typical habitat

11:01

all along the east coast. But

11:07

there are special places like

11:07

Delaware Bay, Chincoteague Bay,

11:12

Jamaica Bay in New York, where

11:12

the bays themselves are low

11:16

energy, but they're still

11:16

saline, and they have sandy

11:20

beaches. So then that's the

11:20

place is where you get millions

11:24

of crabs coming ashore. These

11:24

events are, you know, like you

11:29

see in around the world where

11:29

you have these terrific spawning

11:34

events, salmon dying in streams

11:34

or grunion on the Atlantic on

11:39

the Pacific coast. In this case,

11:39

this sort of marquee use is the

11:43

shorebirds. But in every place

11:43

where these eggs are allowed to

11:48

build up to densities that we're

11:48

talking about, mostly eggs are

11:53

going to the marine fish and

11:53

crabs. In Delaware Bay, for

11:57

example, before they overall

11:57

harvested the crabs down to the

12:02

level that they are now we used

12:02

to have a vibrant sport fishery

12:07

like weak fish, there used to be

12:07

somewhere in the area of two to

12:11

3 million pounds a year were

12:11

harvested either by sport

12:16

fishers or by commercial

12:16

fisheries. Now it's down to

12:20

44,000 pounds, because the loss

12:20

of the crabs and the loss of the

12:25

eggs and the loss of the young

12:25

that hatch from those eggs, pull

12:30

the rug out from a lot of the

12:30

forage fish that the sport fish

12:34

are eating, because all those

12:34

species are also breeding. And

12:38

so they're making use of

12:38

horseshoe crab eggs. And so in

12:42

other words, when I'm trying to

12:42

say is that the horseshoe crabs

12:46

represent a productive layer of

12:46

almost all estuaries on the East

12:52

Coast. And so fishers are

12:52

defeating their own purpose by

12:58

catching them for something is

12:58

insignificant is bait.

13:03

Yeah, they're,

13:03

they're really undermining their

13:06

entire purpose with it sounds to

13:06

me like you're describing a

13:12

keystone species that without

13:12

them being at that level, that

13:16

the entire ecosystem changes.

13:18

That's right. That's exactly the right term.

13:22

Yeah, that's,

13:22

that's really interesting. And

13:25

just thinking about that

13:25

exchange of energy from ocean to

13:31

upland systems, and especially

13:31

with birds that are migrating

13:35

across continents, and in

13:35

changing how those those energy

13:41

cycles work with providing food

13:41

to them. That's yeah, there's a

13:46

lot there's a lot to go on here.

13:46

I'm glad we're talking.

13:50

And see that shapes that coalition's, too when we first

13:52

started out, we thought, you

13:55

know, we bind together the usual

13:55

players, you know, conservation

13:59

group, and we did like National

13:59

Wildlife Federation, National

14:04

Audubon defenders for wildlife,

14:04

they're all part of the

14:07

coalition. But see, because

14:07

we're talking about a valuable

14:11

biochemical. You know, soon

14:11

we'll talk about eventually, it

14:15

also brings in Eli Lilly, the

14:15

drug company, as part of the

14:19

coalition. And Physicians

14:19

Committee for Responsible

14:23

Medicine is part of the

14:23

coalition. But we also have

14:27

groups like Manhattan defenders,

14:27

and sport fishing guides

14:31

association. So you know, what

14:31

we're doing is binding together

14:36

a coalition that sort of

14:36

addresses this very difficult

14:41

conservation problem. It's one

14:41

that plagues every natural

14:45

resource right now, whether it's

14:45

forestry or agriculture industry

14:50

is consuming, not just the sort

14:50

of top level product of a

14:54

system, they're commodifying

14:54

every layer of that system. So

14:58

that right, basically removing

14:58

all the productivity from

15:02

ecosystems. And, you know, our

15:02

whole climate change initiative

15:08

depends on functioning

15:08

ecosystems. So it's an

15:11

interesting problem, as you

15:11

know, I'm sure you see, but it's

15:15

also an interesting solution.

15:15

You can't rely on the normal

15:19

method, a bunch of conservation

15:19

groups get together and say this

15:22

is what it should be. This is

15:22

more like, let's all work

15:27

together to try to figure out

15:27

how we can solve this.

15:30

It almost sounds

15:30

like a joke of a bird biologist,

15:34

a sports Fisher and

15:34

pharmaceutical representative

15:37

walk into a bar or something

15:37

like that. It's just it seems

15:42

like a weird, weird group of

15:42

people that work together. So I

15:47

guess on that note, you already

15:47

mentioned lysates, and of

15:51

horseshoe crabs being harvested

15:51

for the biomedical field, can

15:54

you just give a bit of an intro

15:54

to that and how that started and

15:58

where we are with that today?

15:59

Yeah,

15:59

so every medical product drugs,

16:03

hip implants, pacemakers,

16:03

whatever are tested with a

16:08

biochemical from horseshoe crab

16:08

blood called lysate. So what it

16:12

does is the drug companies have

16:12

created a testing assay that

16:17

allows them to determine if

16:17

there's any contaminant in the

16:21

components, like they test water

16:21

and all the various components

16:25

of drugs, and then they test

16:25

them in their final development,

16:29

so that the public can be

16:29

assured that there's no

16:32

contamination in these drugs or

16:32

in, you know, whatever device

16:37

going into your body. And see,

16:37

this is a great improvement,

16:41

because previously, they used

16:41

rabbits to test. And so that's

16:46

cruel, obviously cruel. And so

16:46

this is innovation for sure. The

16:53

problem now is that the people

16:53

who are doing the bleeding,

16:57

which are not the the giant

16:57

pharmaceutical companies, there

17:01

are multinational companies that

17:01

are segments of multinational

17:06

companies that are basically

17:06

just after profit. And, you

17:11

know, they're working with the

17:11

agencies, who are really just

17:14

concerned about creating bait

17:14

for industry. So, you know,

17:19

these two groups are sort of,

17:19

you know, in the same pocket,

17:24

and the bleeding of the crabs,

17:24

they bleed them for eight

17:28

minutes. So they put them up on

17:28

a spike into the heart, and they

17:33

bleed them as much as they'll

17:33

bleed for eight minutes.

17:37

Killing, they say 15%, peer

17:37

reviewed replications of the

17:43

bleeding process, say 30%. But

17:43

it could be more because an

17:49

eight minute bleed affects

17:49

bigger crabs than smaller

17:53

cracks. So a small crab might

17:53

bleed 30% of their blood,

17:57

whereas a bigger female could

17:57

lead up to half their blood

18:02

volume. And so then they just

18:02

let them go. And nobody's

18:06

tracking how many die after they

18:06

leave. And from an outside view,

18:12

I should say, at least 30% are

18:12

dying in the process of

18:16

bleeding. And then they're dying

18:16

when they're being caught

18:19

because they're catching

18:19

withdrawals. And you know, so

18:22

that's a very brutal process

18:22

that leaves a lot of animals. So

18:26

what's the total cost of this?

18:26

We don't, it would be good if it

18:31

was regulated in such a way that

18:31

we could examine what they're

18:35

doing. But sort of arcane rules

18:35

of marine fisheries in the US,

18:40

allows this company to hide all

18:40

their data. So nobody can see

18:45

what's actually happening. We

18:45

just had to take their word for

18:48

it. And these are multinational

18:48

companies, I don't know how many

18:52

multinational companies you

18:52

would take your

18:58

and see the other problem is, is

18:58

actually an opportunity. And a

19:04

synthetic now exists. So we

19:04

could go to the third stage here

19:08

started out rabbits, and it went

19:08

to animal another animal but

19:13

less brutal than the previous

19:13

method. But now we could go to a

19:17

synthetic. And that synthetic

19:17

was actually developed like over

19:22

10 years ago by a scientist in

19:22

Japan. And then one of the drug

19:27

companies, one of the bleeding

19:27

companies bought the patent did

19:29

nothing, so essentially kept it

19:29

out of the market. The patent

19:34

expired several years ago. And

19:34

so since then, drug companies

19:38

like Eli Lilly, have already

19:38

used the synthetic for both

19:43

their product development and

19:43

for final product testing drug

19:48

company, Pfizer just did a head

19:48

to head test between the LAL and

19:54

the synthetic and found no

19:54

differences. But all the other

19:59

leading companies have synthetic

19:59

alternatives. One company that

20:03

does most of the bleeding,

20:03

Charles River associates, it

20:07

currently doesn't have synthetic

20:07

alternatives developed. So they

20:11

challenged the efficacy of the

20:11

synthetic and published the

20:16

paper that said that they were

20:16

not equivalent. They did a test.

20:21

But groups within our coalition

20:21

like Physicians for Responsible

20:26

Medicine and another group

20:26

revive and restore. And the

20:30

companies that are involved

20:30

biome Are you is a company in

20:34

our coalition along with Eli

20:34

Lilly, it basically went to work

20:39

and found that the company

20:39

Charles River had sort of

20:44

deliberately manipulated by

20:44

starting with something called

20:49

Dirty water, which is water that

20:49

is not purified before it goes

20:55

into product development. And so

20:55

this 30 Water includes a

21:00

contaminant that they knew the

21:00

synthetic wouldn't detect. But

21:05

no drug company uses 30 water.

21:05

So it was a sort of artificial

21:10

restriction that led the FDA and

21:10

the US Pharmacopoeia to

21:17

essentially reverse their

21:17

earlier positions that they were

21:21

going to include the synthetic

21:21

and existing chapter that would

21:26

allow the companies to just use

21:26

Lal or RFC, depending on what

21:32

they wanted. All of a sudden,

21:32

they said that we required a new

21:35

chapter, which would require all

21:35

the companies to do testing. And

21:40

then eventually, they would say

21:40

that Lal and RFC are equivalent.

21:47

So right now, it's in that

21:47

period of flux. I think it the

21:53

way it looks is because of

21:53

Pfizer's new data. And because

21:59

of the influence of the drug

21:59

companies and our influence,

22:03

because the other side of the

22:03

equation here is that the

22:08

pharmaceutical companies have

22:08

committed to not using animal

22:12

testing, if they don't have to.

22:12

And so this is pitting them

22:18

against that ideal. I hope that

22:18

it'll change this year.

22:23

It really brings to

22:23

light especially with the

22:25

pandemic and all the talk about

22:25

vaccines, and just thinking that

22:29

everyone who has been vaccinated

22:29

has horseshoe crabs to think for

22:33

that we normally think of animal

22:33

testing, associated more with I

22:37

mean, rabbits as had been

22:37

previously done and, and

22:41

thinking of like a more of a

22:41

Malian counterpart to test on

22:45

mammals such as ourselves, but

22:45

it just strikes me as being such

22:49

a not a not an easy connection

22:49

to make of thinking as horseshoe

22:53

crabs as being the as horseshoe

22:53

crabs having something in their

22:58

blood that's been with them for

22:58

400 million years, that's really

23:02

helped to protect them that now

23:02

we can harness to protect us and

23:07

and, and how we we procreate

23:07

synthetic everything it seems

23:11

these days, but we haven't

23:11

switched to, we're still

23:14

bleeding horseshoe crabs to to

23:14

test medical devices and

23:19

ourselves. It just seems it just

23:19

seems quite archaic, archaic for

23:22

this day and age.

23:24

It

23:24

is I agree. And you know, it's

23:26

money. You know, there's

23:26

businesses, there's investors,

23:30

there's, you know, everybody has

23:30

expectation of profit. This is

23:35

natural resources in our age. I

23:35

mean, everybody wants to make

23:40

money off of every single layer

23:40

of our ecological world. And you

23:48

know, it doesn't work that way.

23:48

You start pulling out the

23:52

blocks, you know, and eventually

23:52

the whole thing's going to come

23:55

crashing down. And, you know, as

23:55

I said earlier, pulling out the

24:01

horseshoe crab block was a

24:01

significant ecological action

24:05

that nobody even realized

24:05

because it was pulled out before

24:10

anyone knew of the value like

24:10

even here in Delaware Bay. The

24:15

crabs spawn was amazing. It was

24:15

I have a 1986 video of crabs

24:23

mining. The harvest of horseshoe

24:23

crabs was only maybe 100,000 A

24:28

year or so in Delaware Bay. And

24:28

then within a few years, it went

24:31

up to 2.5 million. And it was

24:31

because the way you wanted bait

24:37

for a conch fishery, and very

24:37

quickly, they the egg densities

24:42

on Delaware Bay went from like

24:42

50,000 eggs per square meter on

24:49

the surface two now went as low

24:49

as 7000. Right now it's about

24:54

10,000. But in 1986, I could see

24:54

in this video that there was

24:59

wind rows of eggs, so it wasn't

24:59

like there was an egg here like

25:03

there. It was piles of eggs

25:03

pushed up by the wild tie, and

25:09

you know, all of that was going

25:09

into the sea. And, you know,

25:14

birds fish crabs, mean Blue Claw

25:14

crabs, like all the The elements

25:20

of productivity that we enjoy.

25:20

were all like, you know, just

25:25

knocked out at the knees. Nobody

25:25

documented these values before

25:30

it occurred. And then we were

25:30

left with trying to restore it

25:37

after it was already done. And

25:37

see, that's where most of the

25:41

other horseshoe crab populations

25:41

are now. And, you know, I have

25:46

to say it's where a lot of

25:46

natural resources are right now.

25:50

Yeah, it's another

25:50

example in the water space of

25:53

tragedy of the commons, a common

25:53

resource where without

25:57

regulatory control, everyone

25:57

just has free will to go and do

26:01

what they want. And because

26:01

they're not a big charismatic

26:03

species, they're not it's not

26:03

it's not a panda out there that

26:07

were bleeding and everyone's

26:07

losing their minds over it's a

26:09

crab that you can't really can't

26:09

really look inside and connect

26:13

with it. But for for everyone,

26:13

everyone who's listening to this

26:17

podcast, if you could give them

26:17

an empowered speech of why they

26:20

should care. Why, why should the

26:20

listeners care about horseshoe

26:24

crabs?

26:25

For

26:25

the people in Canada, I have to

26:27

say there's a value, because all

26:27

of this craziness led to a

26:33

listing of the red not the red

26:33

not went from, you know, in

26:39

Delaware Bay went from 95,000

26:39

birds each spring. Last year,

26:45

it's now down to 6800. This is a

26:45

Canadian species. Yes, there's

26:49

two sub species, one's breeding

26:49

in the western part of the

26:53

Arctic in Alaska. And then the

26:53

segment that we're working on is

26:59

all of Nunavut, basically. So

26:59

there's that, you know,

27:03

Canadians, I think, have a

27:03

special or interest and Canadian

27:08

Fish and Wildlife Service and

27:08

Environment Canada have taking

27:13

really leadership roles and in

27:13

helping defend the birds, to

27:18

some extent more so than US

27:18

agencies, state agencies and US

27:23

state agencies forget about

27:23

their most of them are dominated

27:26

by marine fisheries interests. I

27:26

think, you know, from a wider

27:31

perspective, it's a

27:31

precautionary tale, because if

27:35

we're ever going to deal with

27:35

climate change, we need electric

27:39

cars, we need to restrict

27:39

methane, you know, all that

27:43

stuff. That's certain. But the

27:43

best way to sequester carbon is

27:48

that functioning ecosystems and

27:48

fully functioning ecosystems not

27:54

like, you know, yeah, you can

27:54

see Quester carbon in a form

27:58

field. But you're not going to

27:58

get the same carbon benefits as

28:04

you work from a fully

28:04

functioning ecosystem. The third

28:07

thing is that we like seafood.

28:07

And, you know, if you want to

28:13

eat seafood, and you need to

28:13

have a productive system, we

28:17

depend on these animals for Lal,

28:17

but who knows why, what we

28:22

depend on them in the future.

28:22

See, I think to some extent,

28:26

like I was chief of the

28:26

Endangered Species Program for

28:30

the state of New Jersey, for,

28:30

you know, most of my career, the

28:35

emphasis was always on

28:35

endangered species. It's funny

28:38

because you can look at the arc

28:38

of my career, and you could say,

28:41

you try to sell this, you try to

28:41

sell this, you try so that you

28:45

end up with horseshoe crab or

28:45

some other counterpart. To

28:49

protect endangered species, you

28:49

need to have functioning

28:53

ecosystems, and you can't just

28:53

protect a species, independent

28:57

of all of the world that it

28:57

lives within. You know, the

29:01

precautionary tale here, I think

29:01

overall, is we need the systems

29:06

we need it for danger species,

29:06

we need it for, you know, our

29:10

own edification for our own

29:10

health. But it used to be the

29:14

argument was take away a block,

29:14

you take away this block,

29:17

eventually systems will fail.

29:17

I'm here to say the systems are

29:21

have already failed. Now we need

29:21

to start rebuilding them. And

29:25

the way to do that is restore

29:25

all these other values. Like an

29:30

example of these other values is

29:30

here in Delaware Bay were while

29:34

they were destroying the crabs,

29:34

they were arguing, we got to do

29:38

this, we need the jobs. And so

29:38

they basically destroyed the

29:42

robust population. And then in

29:42

the process, we lost 1000s of

29:47

jobs because all the Marine is

29:47

now are closed because there's

29:51

no fish. But the restaurants

29:51

have closed overnight. motel

29:55

type things are closed the

29:55

income from dramatic levels of

30:00

tourism, it's all gone. So the

30:00

make 10 jobs or whatever it was

30:05

20 jobs. We've lost economic

30:05

support for our communities.

30:11

Like that's the price that we

30:11

pay for allowing industry to

30:15

just come in and take and then

30:15

leave

30:19

it Yep, that's

30:19

that's a very, very compelling

30:22

case, to care about horseshoe

30:22

crabs. So I guess what are what

30:28

are some of the ways that we've

30:28

talked about horseshoe crabs

30:32

their value? What's being

30:32

currently done with them? So I

30:37

guess, what are some of the

30:37

strategies that are being

30:39

employed by the horseshoe crab

30:39

recovery coalition, or the

30:43

groups that are interested in

30:43

the recovery of this, of this,

30:47

this population to previous

30:47

levels to support these

30:50

ecosystems? So what is it more

30:50

looking at? At policy levels

30:56

that being at being an advocate

30:56

at a government events? Or? Or

31:00

is it talking to industry

31:00

specifically, actually

31:03

sort

31:03

of all of it so the coalition

31:05

has several working teams. The

31:05

one group though is persisted is

31:10

the LAL RFC group. So that's

31:10

populated by the companies by

31:18

conservation groups by the

31:18

group's like positions, like a

31:22

wide variety of people have

31:22

different interests, and arrow

31:26

working together? To figure out

31:26

what the next action should be

31:32

just a series of actions like

31:32

letters to the US farm and

31:36

compare the one group physicians

31:36

at a round table with industry

31:41

reps. So that's one part of it

31:41

is doing everything we can to

31:46

get RFC adopted, because we

31:46

consider that a basic management

31:50

goal. The second is that we have

31:50

sort of several groups working

31:55

on policy issues. If you take a

31:55

horseshoe crab, or you causing a

32:00

take of an endangered species,

32:00

red knots, like that's a big

32:04

question, right? The agencies

32:04

haven't really made that

32:08

declaration, but we think it's

32:08

the case. If you have 10 Crabs,

32:12

you might have a nest in the

32:12

sand that never go to the

32:16

surface. But if you have 100

32:16

Crabs, then you'll have eggs on

32:19

the surface. In other words,

32:19

every crab counts. So a take of

32:24

a crab should be a take of the

32:24

species. So that sort of basic

32:28

policy issue is behind a lot of

32:28

our other actions, like we're

32:33

reaching out to the Atlantic

32:33

States Marine Fisheries

32:35

Commission, we're reaching out

32:35

to individual states, the

32:40

regulatory systems within each

32:40

state. And to do that, we've

32:44

also created state level working

32:44

groups. So these are groups of

32:50

people who belong to the

32:50

coalition, but their actions are

32:54

restricted to that particular

32:54

state. So right now we have I

32:59

think we have eight state

32:59

working groups from Georgia to

33:04

Massachusetts. Like, for

33:04

example, the New York working

33:08

group helped introduce

33:08

legislation last year that got

33:12

tabled for political reasons,

33:12

but they're working on state

33:16

legislation. Right now, what

33:16

we're starting up is where we

33:21

did a pilot last year, but we're

33:21

going into full mode now is

33:26

working off the state working

33:26

groups, develop teams of

33:31

volunteers, that will go out and

33:31

count crab and eggs, tag them,

33:38

and also carry out stewardship.

33:38

So if there's shorebirds there,

33:43

then protect the shorebirds and

33:43

to start programs to flip crabs

33:49

because the or rescue them from

33:49

impingement. So saving crabs

33:54

lives like we do that on

33:54

Delaware Bay, a group called

33:58

return a favor, but that idea we

33:58

would like to spread. So that's

34:03

the sort of multi prong approach

34:03

of the coalition.

34:08

That's great. It's

34:08

an organic thing that continues

34:10

to snowball out. That's

34:10

wonderful to hear.

34:13

You know, I'm a lifelong biologist as yourself, although you're

34:15

half my age of that. But I think

34:20

this is unique, you know, it's

34:20

45 different groups. It's not

34:24

just conservation groups, it's

34:24

wide range of groups. And we're

34:30

not competing. And see, I feel

34:30

like that's one of the problems

34:34

in conservation right now, is

34:34

that I'm going to say this

34:38

starkly. I think that, you know,

34:38

our agencies are being overly

34:43

influenced by the short term

34:43

needs of industry. And

34:48

conservation groups are left to

34:48

fight for money competing

34:53

against each other because it's

34:53

usually grants. I mean, you

34:57

know, this, yeah, you're going

34:57

for grants. You go into

34:59

foundations, you're looking for

34:59

rich donors. And it's hard for

35:05

conservation groups to work

35:05

together vitally. I mean, they

35:09

all work together because we're

35:09

all in it for the same reason.

35:12

I'm not trying to disparage

35:12

that. It's just that there's

35:16

that competitive aspect that

35:16

fracture means the constituency

35:21

into smaller political voices.

35:21

And you know, so that you end up

35:26

with a foe, the short term use

35:26

of our natural resources, that's

35:34

heavily influencing government.

35:34

And then you have this fractious

35:39

group of concerned citizens that

35:39

probably numbers the majority of

35:43

our population, but can't

35:43

develop the voice to make

35:47

change. So I think the craft

35:47

coalition is, is sort of

35:51

breaking the mold there or

35:51

pulling together people. We're

35:54

working collaboratively. Right

35:54

now we have a proposal into the

35:59

Atlantic flyway shorebird

35:59

initiative. And if we are able

36:03

to get money, we're going to

36:03

share it with the state working

36:07

groups. It's not like our

36:07

groups, working groups, these

36:11

are built from whatever works

36:11

best in each state. So you know,

36:16

we're trying to develop a new

36:16

perspective on conservation.

36:20

I'm thoroughly

36:20

impressed and very excited and

36:24

yet passionate people from

36:24

different walks of life all

36:27

working together, but being able

36:27

to actually come together as one

36:30

voice and, and that's really

36:30

special in this field. So I

36:35

guess how could someone who's

36:35

listening to this podcast, maybe

36:39

they're up here in Canada? How

36:39

could they lend a hand and how

36:42

could they help horseshoe crabs

36:42

or help horseshoe crab

36:45

coalition?

36:46

Series? No breeding I don't know that there's any breeding horseshoe

36:48

crabs in Canada are unsure.

36:51

Yeah, we'll have to

36:51

do some research and they'll add

36:53

that to the notes and to hear

36:56

I think they run out with me what's possible that they're in

36:57

the Maritimes so that's one

37:01

thing is to start finding out if

37:01

there is any,

37:05

oh, we do have

37:05

horseshoe crabs in Canada,

37:07

except they are 100 million year

37:07

old fossils in Manitoba. So

37:11

currently know breeding populations.

37:14

You

37:14

know, funding of course, we have

37:16

a new button on our website that

37:16

will allow people to donate. I

37:21

have to tell you that you know,

37:21

we do a trapping of shorebirds

37:25

every year. We've been doing it

37:25

for now 25 years and that team

37:30

is volunteer base and a lot of

37:30

our team is coming from Canada

37:34

from Toronto Mark pack from the

37:34

Royal Ontario Museum and, and

37:39

then also the people of

37:39

Environment Canada like Paul

37:42

Smith, they provide a lot too. I

37:42

guess I could say that the

37:47

opportunity to volunteer for

37:47

Canadians it would have to be

37:51

like a vacation come down to

37:51

Delaware Bay, spend a week and

37:55

volunteer we have a volunteer

37:55

crab rescue. We have volunteer

38:01

stewardship for each of the

38:01

beaches protecting the red

38:04

knots, we have a sort of brand

38:04

of volunteer ism for doing

38:09

surveys, of course you crabs

38:09

directed by a staff person, but

38:14

the people doing the tagging or

38:14

the counting are our volunteers.

38:19

The key thing is not a day, you

38:19

know, not a few days, enough

38:24

time so that if you're trained,

38:24

right, you could play it out for

38:28

enough time that it's worth it.

38:28

And then there's money, you

38:32

know, you can always give money. Yeah.

38:36

Exactly. That's,

38:36

that's wonderful. It sounds like

38:39

a great vacation to be honest.

38:39

Weather is great.

38:42

Here

38:42

in Callaway, and it's one of the

38:45

I think it's the main reason why

38:45

we have Canadians because they

38:48

just need to get

38:50

snow. Exactly. So I

38:50

guess my final question is what

38:56

led you to being involved in

38:56

this project and what led you

38:58

into this career path?

38:59

I you know, it's probably a familiar story for you. I mean,

39:01

when I was young, I was a hunter

39:05

and Fisher and my father, you

39:05

know, so I, I was one of those

39:10

people. I knew what he wanted to

39:10

do. When I went to college, I

39:13

wanted to be a game warden. And

39:13

so then it just went on from

39:17

there. I got a master's degree

39:17

at Penn State, eventually a PhD.

39:23

But after I had my master's

39:23

degree was all working. You

39:26

know, I worked for Georgia Fish

39:26

and Wildlife, I worked for

39:29

Clemson ventually for New Jersey

39:29

fish and wildlife and now on my

39:34

own, and I'm 70 years old, so I

39:34

shouldn't be retired. But, you

39:39

know, this is what I love to do.

39:39

If I retired, this is what I

39:42

would do. I actually did retire

39:42

but I kept going. The reason is

39:50

because you know, like a lot of

39:50

people I love this work.

39:53

Oh, that's that's

39:53

fantastic to hear. It's still

39:56

work, but when you love it, it's

39:56

hard to let it go. Thank you so

39:59

much for speaking with me today.

39:59

I feel like I've learned so much

40:03

about horseshoe crabs and it's

40:03

interesting to hear how maybe

40:06

something that gets overlooked

40:06

by a lot of people can just play

40:09

such an important integral role

40:09

and then really can become a way

40:13

for people to connect dots that

40:13

seemed very difficult to connect

40:16

previously. So thank you so much

40:16

for speaking with To me when I

40:20

post the show notes for this

40:20

episode, there'll be links to

40:23

the website for the horseshoe

40:23

crab coalition and for the

40:26

social media as well them so

40:26

that listeners will be able to

40:29

find and connect with the

40:29

coalition as well.

40:32

Thank

40:32

you, David, this was interesting

40:35

to talk to you and I appreciate

40:35

the opportunity to talk about

40:39

the coalition's.

40:46

Thanks for

40:46

listening to today's episode all

40:48

about horseshoe crabs, medical

40:48

devices, and what we're doing

40:51

about this synthetic

40:51

alternative. Thanks so much to

40:55

Dr. Larry Niles. He is a great

40:55

guest. And I learned so much

40:58

from him just so excited to make

40:58

my way down to Delaware Bay and

41:02

see the crab spawn for myself.

41:02

For more information about the

41:05

horseshoe crab recovery

41:05

coalition. You can find out more

41:08

about their work at H s crab

41:08

recovery.org. And I'll leave a

41:12

link for his own website as well

41:12

where you can keep up to date

41:15

with what's going on in the crab

41:15

world and in the bird world. And

41:19

basically, everything you need

41:19

to know about Delaware Bay, be

41:23

sure to check out the show

41:23

notes. As I'll leave links for

41:25

all of these plus lots of other

41:25

information, just in case it's

41:29

just whet your palate and you

41:29

can't wait to learn more. Be

41:31

sure to check out the show

41:31

notes. It'll all be there. I'm

41:34

the host and producer David

41:34

Evans. And I just like to thank

41:37

the rest of the team

41:37

specifically Paul Polman, Lee

41:40

Burton, and the rest of the

41:40

aquatic biosphere board. Thanks

41:43

for all of your help. And to

41:43

learn more about the aquatic

41:46

biosphere project. And what

41:46

we're doing right here in

41:49

Alberta telling the story of

41:49

water, you can check us out at

41:52

aquatic biosphere.ca. And we

41:52

also have launched our new media

41:57

company, a b n aquatic biosphere

41:57

network, which you can find at

42:02

the public place dot online and

42:02

search for the aquatic biosphere

42:06

network channel, where we will

42:06

actually be posting all of the

42:10

video episodes that we're going

42:10

to be creating this year. So

42:13

tune in. They will be out for

42:13

the next little while, but very

42:16

excited to start sharing video

42:16

content as well of our

42:19

interviews. If you have any

42:19

questions or comments about the

42:22

show, we'd love to hear them.

42:22

Email us at conservation at a

42:26

clock biosphere.org. Please

42:26

don't forget to like, share and

42:31

subscribe. Leave us a review. It

42:31

really helps us out. Thanks and

42:35

it's been a splash