0:27

I don't know about

0:27

you, but I'm so excited that

0:29

it's finally summer. And that

0:29

COVID restrictions are starting

0:32

to loosen. And we can start to

0:32

think about even dare to dream

0:37

about meeting people to share

0:37

meals with once again. Now, when

0:42

we're thinking about having

0:42

people over for dinner, what's

0:45

the most important thing to

0:45

know? It's one question to ask

0:48

what's for dinner. But it's

0:48

another problem to know what

0:52

actually you're serving.

0:52

Especially if you enjoy seafood,

0:57

it may surprise you to know that

0:57

much of the seafood that we get

1:00

in Canada isn't at all what it

1:00

says on the package. It could be

1:04

an entirely different species of

1:04

fish could be entirely different

1:08

type of fish. But you'd never

1:08

know. You might be one of those

1:12

people who says, Well, I still

1:12

enjoy it. I don't really care

1:16

what it actually is. But what if

1:16

I said that you might be

1:19

actually eating an endangered

1:19

species leading to its

1:22

extinction? What about if people

1:22

have allergies to these fish,

1:25

and they're not properly

1:25

labeled, and people have

1:27

allergic reactions, but also

1:27

illegal fishing leads to forced

1:31

labor and human trafficking

1:31

around the world? This is a huge

1:34

problem, and it has real human

1:34

consequences. Today on the

1:38

podcast, we're going to tackle

1:38

seafood fraud in Canada. What is

1:42

causing this problem? And how

1:42

can we fix this crazy issue?

2:25

Water we doing? And

2:25

how can we do better? your one

2:31

stop shop for everything water

2:31

related from discussing water to

2:36

use and the organisms that

2:36

depend on it for all the global

2:41

issues that you really never

2:41

knew all had to do with water.

2:46

I'm your host, David Evans from

2:46

the aquatic biosphere project.

2:49

And I just want to ask you

2:49

something. What are we doing?

2:53

How can we do better? I don't think it will come as a

3:11

surprise to anyone listening to

3:15

this podcast that there are

3:15

definitely some concerns in the

3:18

seafood world about

3:18

sustainability. seafood is an

3:21

important protein source for

3:21

over 3 billion people worldwide.

3:26

And we need to make sure we

3:26

protect these important fish

3:28

species, not only for ourselves,

3:28

but for the future. 59 point 6

3:33

million people are employed in

3:33

fisheries work around the world.

3:37

So if these fish stocks were to

3:37

collapse, be enormously

3:39

devastating. And on top of the

3:39

over exploitation of these fish

3:43

stocks is illegal and under

3:43

reported unregulated fishing,

3:47

it's estimated that 20% of all

3:47

the fish caught in the world are

3:51

caught illegally, through

3:51

unregulated and unreported

3:55

fishing, which actually ends up

3:55

being about 26 to $50 billion of

4:00

economic loss every year. And we

4:00

haven't even talked about the

4:04

environmental impacts that

4:04

fishing can have around the

4:07

world as well. So when we talk

4:07

about getting sustainably

4:11

sourced seafood, what does that

4:11

really mean? What do we need to

4:14

know about our seafood to make

4:14

sure that it's sourced

4:18

sustainably.

4:19

So

4:19

first, we have issues such as

4:21

overfishing, catching more than

4:21

what can be replenished, things

4:26

like bycatch. So that's where

4:26

fisheries will be capturing

4:30

other species, so not the target

4:30

species that they're after. And

4:34

unfortunately, a lot of that

4:34

catch ends up going waste.

4:37

There's also habitat

4:37

destruction, a lot of the gear

4:40

that we're using is destroying

4:40

the bottom of the ocean. So

4:44

things like dragging where

4:44

you're dragging it across the

4:47

ocean floor. It's really it's

4:47

scooping up everything right, so

4:51

it's not leaving much behind. On

4:51

the other side, if we look at

4:54

agriculture, if it's not done

4:54

well, there's also habitat

4:59

damage. So one of the ways that

4:59

we farm fish is an open net pens

5:04

and the ocean and so those can

5:04

create a lot of pollution from

5:07

all the waste has impacts on our

5:07

wild stocks as well can transmit

5:11

disease and parasites. Sometimes

5:11

there's chemicals being released

5:15

into the ocean, and then if fish

5:15

that are being farmed Then now

5:20

there's sort of this competition

5:20

between the farm species that

5:23

are in the ocean and wild species.

5:26

Okay, so what I

5:26

really took away from that was,

5:29

there's a lot going on with

5:29

seafood. And it's not really

5:32

that easy to understand what's

5:32

going on. If you're just looking

5:35

at a fish that you just bought,

5:35

or a fish on your plate at a

5:38

restaurant, it's so hard to

5:38

understand where that fish's

5:42

journey has taken it, and how it

5:42

arrived onto your plate. Also, I

5:48

feel like you need to be a

5:48

marine biologist to just even

5:50

understand what's going on here.

5:50

So how do you even start to make

5:54

a sustainable choice? If that's

5:54

something you feel strongly

5:57

about? How can we tell if people

5:57

are choosing to fish target

6:01

species that are plentiful or

6:01

bountiful? And they're not

6:04

targeting fish stocks that are

6:04

already in decline? How can you

6:07

tell if a fish that you buy at

6:07

the supermarket wasn't caught

6:10

using a dredge net just trawling

6:10

everything on the bottom of the

6:13

ocean floor? How can you tell if

6:13

there wasn't a lot of bycatch

6:17

associated with that? This

6:17

episode isn't intended to rail

6:21

on about fishing practices. But

6:21

it's more about how can we as

6:25

the consumers support groups

6:25

that are fishing sustainably

6:30

without supporting groups that

6:30

are fishing unsustainably.

6:33

Here's the little hint it all

6:33

focuses around the word

6:36

traceability.

6:38

It's

6:38

not as simple as just, you know,

6:41

the cow that you're eating in

6:41

your burger, it's seafood can be

6:45

many different species that

6:45

could come from many different

6:47

places. And so it just takes a

6:47

lot more time to understand. So

6:53

my name is Christina caligari. I

6:53

am the sustainable seafood

6:57

coordinator at the ecology

6:57

Action Center. It's an

7:00

environmental charity, based in

7:00

Halifax, Nova Scotia.

7:03

traceability is kind of my bread

7:03

and butter, so I'm really happy

7:06

to talk about it. Yeah, so so

7:06

traceability is not entirely

7:10

anything new. It's basically in

7:10

a nutshell, it's a tool that's

7:14

used to track information about

7:14

a product along a supply chain,

7:18

the seafood that we get in

7:18

Canada, most likely not actually

7:22

from Canada, we do import a lot

7:22

of seafood, the we export a lot,

7:26

but we also import just as much.

7:26

So it's, it's close to 85%. I

7:31

believe. The seafood industry

7:31

has had a lot of news around it

7:35

lately, where the industry can

7:35

be subject to things like human

7:39

trafficking, forced labor, or

7:39

unsafe working conditions.

7:43

Sometimes there's like to

7:43

organize crime. So there's a few

7:46

social issues that are that are

7:46

tied into seafood. And because

7:50

we're we're importing so much

7:50

into Canada, although it you

7:53

know, it might be happening

7:53

elsewhere, it definitely, you

7:56

know, comes back to us. So sort

7:56

of moving past, you know how

8:00

seafood starts out along the

8:00

supply chain, we now have

8:03

seafood being highly susceptible

8:03

to miss labeling and fraud, it's

8:08

definitely up there. If you

8:08

compare it to the other foods or

8:11

commodities that have instances

8:11

of fraud, it's gained a lot of

8:14

attention within the seafood

8:14

space, because traceability not

8:18

only allows for good product

8:18

safety, but it also can help to

8:21

ensure legality, so making sure

8:21

that the seafood sold wasn't

8:26

associated with those social

8:26

impacts that I mentioned, or

8:29

that it wasn't legally fished.

8:29

And then it can also be a really

8:33

great way to actually storytel

8:33

and communicate to the supply

8:38

chain and consumers because

8:38

you're able to bring that

8:40

information all the way to the

8:40

label, for example, it's a way

8:44

to better connect people with

8:44

where their foods coming from

8:47

basically,

8:49

when there's so

8:49

many steps involved in getting

8:53

the fish to your plate, knowing

8:53

its journey, I think is super

8:56

important. But even when I go to

8:56

the grocery store, still,

9:00

there's not much information on

9:00

the actual package to let you

9:03

know the journey of that product

9:03

from basically farm to table or

9:07

ocean to play. Even when there

9:07

is information, it can be a

9:11

little bit deceiving.

9:13

There's

9:13

cases where we could catch you

9:16

know, let's say sockeye salmon

9:16

in BC, but because we're so

9:20

globalized and it's really cheap

9:20

to send our fish to China for

9:24

processing, we might send that

9:24

sockeye salmon from BC to China,

9:29

maybe we'll have some processing

9:29

there. And then we decide we

9:32

want to send it to now the US

9:32

for some extra processing. And

9:35

then it could be sent back to

9:35

Canada. So you could be eating

9:39

Canadian caught fish but because

9:39

of our labeling the way that we

9:43

label or seafood products in

9:43

Canada, it always says the

9:48

product of the last place of

9:48

processing gas, I would say the

9:51

product of the USA and so you'd

9:51

look at the label and think,

9:54

Okay, this is a product of the

9:54

USA, not Canada. So it gets

9:57

tricky.

10:00

So even the labels

10:00

that we do have, they don't tell

10:03

the whole story. It seems crazy

10:03

to me to think that the fish

10:07

that's caught off the coast of

10:07

Canada can get sent halfway

10:10

around the world to be

10:10

processed, sent back to another

10:13

country to be processed again,

10:13

and is sold as a product of that

10:18

country. That doesn't tell the

10:18

story of that fish at all. I

10:21

mean, maybe this is just me

10:21

having no background in supply

10:26

chain management at all. So to

10:26

help me understand, I reached

10:30

out to Dr. Sylvain Charlebois,

10:30

otherwise known as the food

10:33

professor from Dalhousie

10:33

University to really help me

10:36

wrap my head around how food

10:36

gets to Canada and why it's

10:40

labeled the way it is.

10:42

So

10:42

my name is Sylvain Charlebois. I

10:46

am the director of the agrifood

10:46

analytics lab at Dalhousie

10:50

University, in Canada. And what

10:50

we do at the lab is to try to

10:56

understand the future of food,

10:56

the seafood or fisheries, I

11:01

quickly understood that

11:01

transparency is not necessarily

11:04

a priority. There's a lot of

11:04

things going on out there. That

11:09

really concerns not only me, but

11:09

of course, a lot of people,

11:14

including consumers and the

11:14

Canadian Food Inspection Agency.

11:18

And when you look at the

11:18

importance of the sector in in

11:22

our economy, you need to take

11:22

care of it. But when you think

11:25

about ocean sustainability, when

11:25

you think about food chain

11:29

integrity, and this whole issue

11:29

of food fraud, that's certainly

11:34

one area that I've actually

11:34

worked a lot in over the last

11:38

little while.

11:40

So we've talked

11:40

about food fraud quite a bit

11:43

already, but we haven't really

11:43

taken a really hard look at it

11:46

yet. So what is food fraud? So

11:46

food fraud happens when you sell

11:51

something? And you say it is

11:51

something that it isn't? A lot

11:55

of times it's substituting a

11:55

cheaper species and pretending

11:59

it's a more expensive, more

11:59

prized fish to be had. So for

12:04

those who end up purchasing this

12:04

fish, why should you care? If

12:09

you can't even tell the

12:09

difference in the taste? If it

12:11

is the fish it's labeled as or

12:11

if it's a different species

12:14

entirely?

12:16

Why? It's a good question. I mean, a lot of people actually do not

12:17

care. I mean, they they believe,

12:21

well, I'm paying a price and and

12:21

when I bring the product home,

12:26

I'm pretty satisfied with the

12:26

product. I'm not really

12:30

concerned about my health

12:30

either. When I go to the

12:33

restaurant, what I order is very

12:33

good. And so why should I care

12:37

about the species one, when you

12:37

think about substitution, you

12:41

are looking at economically

12:41

motivated crimes, I mean, you

12:46

are going to be substituting one

12:46

species with another and that

12:51

other species, species will

12:51

likely be cheaper. And so you

12:56

are cheated in some way as a

12:56

consumer. And And still, they

13:01

may not be enough for people to

13:01

feel concerned about the The

13:05

other concern that I have

13:05

certainly as economists is that

13:08

as soon as you actually allow

13:08

this kind of behavior to occur,

13:13

you're not helping innovative

13:13

businesses, which want to

13:19

operate with high integrity and

13:19

honesty. And so you're basically

13:25

penalizing good behavior and

13:25

people who actually do want to

13:28

charge more for food because it

13:28

is worth more. And frankly, in

13:32

the era of cheap food, you do

13:32

see that there is some

13:37

complacency, which is

13:37

unfortunate, the more fraud

13:40

occurs, the more likely you

13:40

penalizing the good companies

13:44

out there who are actually quite

13:44

honest, I would actually add a

13:47

third element, which is the

13:47

element of public health. Some

13:51

people out there are actually

13:51

allergic to specific species,

13:55

especially when it comes to

13:55

seafood. And if your product is

13:58

not properly label, you could

13:58

actually endanger the lives of

14:01

certain consumers. And so that's

14:01

another danger if you with

14:07

substitution or adulteration. It

14:07

is certainly, there's certainly

14:12

a risk.

14:17

I just wanted to

14:17

have some seafood. I didn't want

14:19

to be supporting criminal

14:19

organizations that are involved

14:23

in human trafficking and illegal

14:23

fishing. I don't want to have an

14:26

allergic reaction. I want to

14:26

know what I'm eating. And I want

14:29

to feel good about it. So I

14:29

guess the next question is, how

14:33

big of a problem is this? We

14:33

keep mentioning it, keep

14:37

bringing it up. But how often

14:37

are we actually buying seafood?

14:42

That is not actually what it

14:42

says it is? Now for this

14:45

question. Everyone I talked to

14:45

pointed me in one direction.

14:49

Oceana, Canada, Oceana, Canada

14:49

has done a number of studies,

14:54

where they've DNA tested fish

14:54

from across Canadian

14:57

marketplaces to see if they

14:57

actually are the species that

15:01

they are actually labeled as, so

15:01

I'll turn this over to sciarra

15:04

Thurston from Oceana Canada to

15:04

let us know what's going on in

15:08

Canada with seafood right now.

15:10

We, you know, we wanted to take a look and see if this problem

15:12

which has been well documented

15:15

around the world was an issue

15:15

here as well. So we conducted

15:18

DNA Testing, which is really the

15:18

only way to actually know if the

15:23

fish in front of you is what is

15:23

written on the label. Because

15:26

you know, even if you're an

15:26

expert on the subject, it's very

15:29

difficult to identify a filleted

15:29

fish once it is processed, and

15:33

it's there in front of you. So

15:33

we conducted DNA testing in six

15:37

cities between 2017 and 2019.

15:37

And we found that almost half of

15:40

the samples that we tested were

15:40

mislabeled. So if the consumer

15:43

is trying to make conscious

15:43

choices about sustainability,

15:46

then, you know, we're really

15:46

taking away that that choice

15:50

from consumers by not ensuring

15:50

that products are properly

15:53

labeled. It's kind of the the

15:53

beginning years of the campaign.

15:56

And then, as we as we move

15:56

forward, we're also looking more

16:00

now we recently did a report

16:00

looking at illegal products and

16:03

kind of the volume of illegal

16:03

products that could be coming

16:06

into the country because illegal

16:06

fishing unfortunately, is a is a

16:09

huge global issue. This is

16:09

something that's just enormous

16:13

in scale, and ended its impacts.

16:13

We know that up to one in five

16:17

fish caught globally could be

16:17

from a legal origins. It's worth

16:22

you know, between 10 and 23 US

16:22

billion dollars is that the

16:25

figure get that gets thrown

16:25

around, there was a study just

16:28

last week, I think it came out

16:28

that said that the US could be

16:30

importing up to $2.4 billion of

16:30

illegal products each year. And,

16:36

you know, a lot of the products

16:36

that we import come through the

16:38

US. So we could be importing

16:38

some of those products

16:42

unwittingly. So consumers could

16:42

be spending their money on

16:44

products that were caught

16:44

illegally, you know, endangered

16:47

species are caught by someone

16:47

who's trapped in a situation of

16:50

modern slavery, which is another

16:50

issue and Global Fishing supply

16:54

chain. So it's really can't be

16:54

overstated. The scale of the

16:59

problem. and Canada is a part of

16:59

that.

17:05

When I first heard

17:05

about this issue, and I thought,

17:09

this would be such a cool topic

17:09

to do an episode for the podcast

17:12

about I got myself a DNA testing

17:12

kit from a lab from gwelf,

17:16

Ontario, and went about to do my

17:16

own small DNA testing

17:20

experiment, to see if the fish

17:20

that I could buy right here in

17:23

Edmonton, were actually the

17:23

species that they were labeled

17:26

as, so I sampled four different

17:26

species from four different

17:30

supermarkets across the city.

17:30

And I went and I sent the

17:34

samples into the lab. Now,

17:34

that's the good news. The bad

17:38

news is the lab was quickly

17:38

transferred over to a COVID-19

17:42

testing facility, which

17:42

obviously takes precedent over

17:46

analyzing DNA samples of fish

17:46

from Edmonton, Alberta, as it

17:50

rightfully should. So only one

17:50

of my samples was actually

17:53

analyzed. And it turned out to

17:53

be exactly what it was supposed

17:56

to be. So I guess it's good in

17:56

that sense. But maybe I'll have

18:01

a follow up. Once the pandemic

18:01

is over. Hopefully, my samples

18:04

will finally get processed. So

18:04

what do we know, we know fish

18:10

fraud is a very prevalent issue

18:10

in the Canadian marketplace. It

18:14

affects the economy of

18:14

fisheries, it affects human

18:17

health, and it can lead to the

18:17

funding of criminal

18:20

organizations, even human

18:20

slavery. So what are we doing?

18:25

And how can we do better? This

18:25

seems to me like something that

18:28

requires the federal government

18:28

to get involved.

18:31

And there actually is quite a bit of political Well, the government

18:32

has actually funded several

18:36

global initiatives to tackle

18:36

illegal fishing. Quite recently,

18:39

they funded an initiative to

18:39

detect called dark vessels of

18:43

vessels fishing illegally around

18:43

the world, which is great. And

18:46

they've also committed to

18:46

implementing a solution to this

18:50

problem holistically. So boat to

18:50

play traceability, knowing where

18:53

our products come from. So that

18:53

commitment was made in 2019. And

18:57

then we have these these

18:57

piecemeal, you know, funding

18:59

initiatives of using satellite

18:59

technology to address illegal

19:03

fishing kind of in certain areas

19:03

around the world. But we haven't

19:07

seen a move forward yet on

19:07

putting in place traceability,

19:10

which is what would really tie

19:10

all those things together, and

19:13

allow us to make sure that we're

19:13

keeping these products out of

19:16

the market. So that's really

19:16

what needs to happen next, you

19:18

know, we need to say, newsmen on

19:18

this commitment to implement

19:21

traceability to make sure that

19:21

we're not leaving Canada's

19:24

borders open to allowing these

19:24

products to continue to come in

19:26

here. And as you say, you know,

19:26

perpetuating demand for these

19:29

practices. It was great to get

19:29

the commitment on boat to play

19:33

traceability. But shortly

19:33

thereafter, there was a global

19:36

pandemic. So you know, we

19:36

certainly should, should give

19:39

the government a little bit of

19:39

grace on that, but that was over

19:42

12 months ago. And, you know,

19:42

something like just committing

19:44

to a timeline for getting

19:44

something like this in place.

19:47

We're kind of lucky in our

19:47

timing and coming to this

19:49

because there are other systems

19:49

in place in the world that we

19:52

can look at and the best

19:52

practices and also construct a

19:56

system which will work with

19:56

other traceability frameworks in

20:00

other markets, which is really

20:00

important because of course, if

20:02

you have systems that aren't

20:02

able to really speak to each

20:05

other, then you create loopholes

20:05

for people who are trying to

20:08

conduct criminal activity and

20:08

you also create burden on honest

20:12

fishers who are trying to do the

20:12

right thing, but now they're

20:14

trying to, you know, be

20:14

compliant with six different

20:17

systems for their products,

20:17

which is Which is a huge burden.

20:20

So our timing is is good on this

20:20

and that we can learn from, from

20:24

other existing systems and

20:24

create a system that will work

20:28

now and into the future. So we

20:28

have to do it.

20:34

But it has to be

20:34

done, it has to be implemented,

20:38

which takes time. So while we

20:38

were hoping that the federal

20:42

government does push forward

20:42

with this, and make it a

20:45

criteria for all seafood in

20:45

Canada, how can we make

20:48

sustainable choices in the

20:48

meantime? Well, one of those

20:52

systems that makes a

20:52

recommendation, and it's easy to

20:56

understand, and you've probably

20:56

already seen its logo before is

21:00

the ocean wise seafood program,

21:00

the program allows for seafood

21:04

that's harvested sustainably

21:04

managed well and ecologically,

21:09

to be provided with the logo on

21:09

their products to show that it

21:12

is a sustainable recommended

21:12

option. But hey, don't take it

21:16

from me. Here's Sophika

21:16

Kostyniuk, the director of

21:19

Fisheries and seafood from ocean

21:19

wise to tell you a little bit

21:22

more about why their recommended

21:22

option is top notch.

21:26

Yes, I'm the director of Fisheries and seafood. So I oversee both

21:28

our science team and our

21:32

accounts team. And the accounts

21:32

team are those extraordinary

21:36

individuals that support our 750

21:36

plus business partners on a

21:40

daily basis. As they go on their

21:40

journeys, to sourcing more and

21:46

selling more and more

21:46

sustainable seafood products.

21:49

seafood is actually widely

21:49

regarded as the most complicated

21:54

food system on the planet.

21:54

Because fish, at least in the

21:58

wild environment don't constrain

21:58

themselves to political borders.

22:03

So they will travel between

22:03

Canada and the US. And in the

22:07

case of salmon, all the way up

22:07

to Russia down to Japan, China,

22:11

we even find them in Chile,

22:11

though there are many different

22:14

government bodies and oversight

22:14

bodies that have to hand over

22:17

jurisdiction from one location

22:17

to the other. There's really no

22:21

coordinated system globally, to

22:21

track what is really happening

22:26

with the world's fisheries. So

22:26

it's very, very complicated. The

22:30

good news is for people that are

22:30

out there listening is that

22:34

programs like ours, distill all

22:34

of that complexity into

22:38

something so simple, which is a

22:38

logo, you can very quickly judge

22:43

whether something is recommended

22:43

or not recommended, on average,

22:47

people take six seconds to make

22:47

a decision in a grocery store as

22:52

to whether or not they're going

22:52

to buy a product. So it's

22:55

absolutely critical to know

22:55

which of those verification

22:59

logos you trust, and you're

22:59

comfortable moving forward with

23:04

your decision. And someday, if

23:04

you ever want to dig into the

23:07

science, it's absolutely

23:07

available. But third party

23:11

verification, whether it be on

23:11

beef, dairy, eggs, whatever fish

23:16

is really, really critical,

23:16

because there's a lot of hard

23:19

work and analysis that goes into

23:19

determining whether a production

23:24

system is sustainable or not.

23:28

oceanwise seafood

23:28

program began because people

23:30

were frustrated because they

23:30

couldn't figure out how to get

23:33

sustainably sourced seafood

23:33

reliably. Now, ocean wise is not

23:39

a boat to play traceability

23:39

system per se. It's a

23:44

recommendation, not a

23:44

certification. So it doesn't

23:47

certify that each piece of

23:47

seafood is exactly what it says

23:51

it is. But it says that this

23:51

fishery is a good choice to

23:56

make. But for more information

23:56

on how they actually make their

23:59

recommendations, I'll turn it

23:59

back to Sophika.

24:02

So

24:02

for ocean wise seafood, we look

24:05

at sort of three key criteria to

24:05

determine if a product is

24:10

sustainable or not. At present,

24:10

we solely judge whether a

24:14

species and product is

24:14

sustainable or not looking at

24:18

ecological impacts. So we look

24:18

firstly at is this stock of fish

24:24

healthy and abundant and

24:24

resilient. So can it actually

24:29

withstand fishing pressure? So

24:29

that's one, two, is it well

24:34

managed so in Canada are

24:34

fisheries in the ocean are

24:37

managed by Department of

24:37

Fisheries and Oceans DFO. We

24:41

work very closely with them to

24:41

obtain their data counts their

24:46

analysis, and we defer to them

24:46

to implement management measures

24:51

when to open fisheries, how many

24:51

fish to fish in a given season

24:55

and so forth. So that's kind of

24:55

the first set of criteria. The

24:59

second set is understanding what

24:59

is the impact on the ecology of

25:06

a system on the habitat? So is

25:06

there bottom trawling involved?

25:11

If so, is that significantly

25:11

damaging the environment? Is it

25:16

ripping up corals or is it

25:16

simply bouncing along right?

25:19

Depending on where that practice

25:19

is being used, it can be very

25:24

negative in terms of

25:24

environmental impacts, or there

25:28

could be little to no impact. So

25:28

that's the next one. And then

25:31

third is our other species being

25:31

negatively impacted. So now we

25:37

get into issues like bycatch,

25:37

which many people I'm sure will

25:42

be familiar with images really,

25:42

really upsetting images of, for

25:47

example, albatross being caught

25:47

on long lines, turtles, dolphins

25:51

being scooped up in large per se

25:51

nets, even manta rays and other

25:56

sharks. So those are kind of the

25:56

three big buckets of criteria

26:01

that we use to assess whether a

26:01

species is a recommended item,

26:06

or not recommended. And each of

26:06

those criterias, once you

26:11

complete the analysis, are

26:11

translated into a numeric score.

26:16

And then those scores are added

26:16

up, and then it's kind of like a

26:18

pass fail.

26:21

So they take all of

26:21

this information, and then it

26:23

goes into a pass fail to say

26:23

whether or not the logo can be

26:27

applied. Now, all of the scores

26:27

and information, you can figure

26:31

out all of that on their

26:31

website. And they actually have

26:34

different scores for each

26:34

different seafood species, based

26:37

on how it's caught or harvested,

26:37

and where it's caught or

26:40

harvested, you can actually be

26:40

have recommendations for eating

26:44

a tuna species, and also against

26:44

eating the same tuna species

26:48

just based off of where was

26:48

harvested, or based off of

26:52

different methods that were used

26:52

to actually harvest that species

26:54

from the ocean. And the great

26:54

part is, you only have to look

26:58

for the logo to understand if it

26:58

is a recommended choice. Ocean

27:02

wise has about 1300 different

27:02

recommendation options. And I'd

27:06

encourage you to check some of

27:06

the recommendations out on their

27:08

website, because it's really

27:08

cool seeing how the world's

27:12

fisheries operate, and how we

27:12

can understand different areas

27:15

of the world based off of their

27:15

fisheries. So takes into account

27:18

lots of the different factors

27:18

that we've been talking about

27:21

already throughout this episode.

27:21

And they have goals to expand

27:24

this to some of the other topics

27:24

we've already talked about in

27:28

previous episodes as well.

27:30

Ghost

27:30

gear is a huge area of interest

27:32

for us to expand into. There's

27:32

an incredible organization, sort

27:36

of leading the charge the global

27:36

ghost gear initiative,

27:39

I seem to remember

27:39

them from somewhere,

27:41

and

27:41

we work in collaboration with

27:44

them already, but not integrated

27:44

into our program. However, I

27:48

believe that will be coming in

27:48

the coming years, what is the

27:52

carbon footprint of a product by

27:52

the time it gets to you. The

27:57

amazing thing is the

27:57

globalization of all significant

28:01

commodities fish included in

28:01

that is that a fish can be

28:05

caught in Canada, sent overseas,

28:05

processed in China sent

28:11

somewhere else turned into a

28:11

value added product with sauce

28:14

or rubber marinate on it

28:14

packaged up and then shipped

28:18

back to Canada and sold again

28:18

200 kilometers from where it was

28:22

originally caught. Nobody is

28:22

accounting for that carbon

28:26

footprint for all that

28:26

pollution. That is something

28:30

we're very, very interested in

28:30

learning a lot more about and

28:34

eventually incorporating that

28:34

into our label program. And

28:37

lastly, social justice, human

28:37

rights issues. There are some

28:42

incredible groups, particularly

28:42

in Southeast Asia, I'd say that

28:46

are making significant headways

28:46

on labor issues, labor abuses in

28:53

the fisheries industry. And we

28:53

would love to also incorporate

28:58

that component into our seafood

28:58

label, eventually, so that it's

29:02

truly a comprehensive gold

29:02

standard. Because I personally

29:08

am not comfortable saying

29:08

something is sustainable, just

29:12

from an ecological perspective.

29:12

But then knowing that there is

29:16

the risk of human rights abuses,

29:16

like huge carbon footprint,

29:20

impact and so on. So it's, it's

29:20

something that we're striving

29:25

towards over the next five to 10

29:25

years.

29:30

Who knew there was

29:30

so much that went into making a

29:33

sustainable choice? Just if you

29:33

wanted to have some seafood?

29:37

This episode has blown me away,

29:37

just the passion that everyone

29:41

spoke with, but also how much

29:41

goes into these decisions. And

29:47

of course, these new goals for

29:47

ocean wises program are very

29:52

much tied to sustainability. We

29:52

did a whole episode on ghosts,

29:55

that carbon footprint is a huge,

29:55

huge deal. And it seems crazy

29:59

that we don't think about that

29:59

when we purchase a different

30:01

product we see made in China and

30:01

just accept that as that's what

30:06

it is. But there's these added

30:06

costs that do add up, not to

30:10

mention the social justice

30:10

issues that were continually

30:13

brought up by all of our guests.

30:13

These are all definitely very

30:17

important issues that we need to

30:17

pay attention To bring together

30:21

to make one decision as

30:21

consumers. So what do we need to

30:25

do? Well, we need to make sure

30:25

we keep the government

30:29

accountable so that they do move

30:29

this legislation forward. So we

30:32

do make this a priority for the

30:32

seafood sector in Canada. But I

30:38

guess in the short term, look

30:38

for the ocean wise logo, look

30:41

for a certification process as

30:41

well for the ASC or the MSC

30:46

Marine Stewardship Council and

30:46

the aquaculture Stewardship

30:49

Council to provide a

30:49

traceability element to your

30:52

seafood. And as Dr. Charlotte

30:52

ball recommended, just buy

30:56

something with a head on it

30:56

gives you the best shot at

30:59

knowing what it is you're actually eating. Thanks for listening to today's

31:08

episode all about fish fraud,

31:12

and seafood sustainability in

31:12

Canada. I'm your host, David

31:15

Evans. And I just love to thank

31:15

all of the guests we had on this

31:18

episode. They're all so

31:18

knowledgeable and bring so much

31:21

to the table when it comes to

31:21

seafood sustainability, and what

31:25

we can do here in Canada. So in

31:25

order that they appeared,

31:28

Christina Calligari, from th

31:28

ecology action centre, and s

31:32

choice, you can find out mor

31:32

about her work on sustainabl

31:36

seafood in Canada at se

31:36

choice.org or the ecology actio

31:41

center.ca. There'll be links i

31:41

the show notes, thanks to Dr

31:46

Sylvain Charlebois from the agr

31:46

foods and analytics lab a

31:50

Dalhousie University. And he'

31:50

also the host of the foo

31:54

Professor podcast, which

31:54

highly recommend as well. Very

31:58

very cool. There'll be links i

31:58

the show notes for both th

32:00

podcast and for his lab

32:00

website. Thanks to Saya

32:04

a Thurston from Oceana, Canad

32:04

, you can find out more abo

32:07

t their work on seafo

32:07

d sustainability, and their D

32:10

A testing program f

32:10

r seafood at oceana.ca. And la

32:15

tly, but not least, thank y

32:15

u to Sophika Kostyniuk and the

32:17

cean wise seafood program for

32:17

peaking with us, and telling us

32:21

ore about how you can buy

32:21

ustainable options right here

32:24

n Canada. There'll be links in

32:24

he show notes for all of these

32:27

antastic guest speakers and

32:27

heir organizations as well. You

32:31

uessed it, the deep dive

32:31

nterviews will be coming out

32:33

ater this week. Get excited.

32:33

e'll go way deeper into

32:38

verything that these groups do.

32:38

can definitely say it's hard

32:41

o fit about four hours worth of

32:41

nterviews into a 30 minute

32:44

pisode. So be sure to know that

32:44

here's a lot more where this

32:48

ame from. Thank you so much for

32:48

istening to the what are we

32:51

oing podcast, it's been such an

32:51

xperience conducting these

32:55

nterviews and producing these

32:55

pisodes. And it's been great to

32:59

et lots of positive feedback

32:59

bout these episodes. So

33:03

nfortunately, these are the

33:03

ast episodes for season one.

33:07

ish fraud is our last topic

33:07

hat we're covering in this

33:10

eason. But don't worry, season

33:10

wo will be coming your way

33:13

oon. I'm the host and producer

33:13

avid Evans. And I just like to

33:18

hank the rest of the team from

33:18

he aquatic biosphere project,

33:21

pecifically to Paula Polman, So

33:21

hie cervera, and Anna Bettini. T

33:25

anks for all of your help. To l

33:25

arn more about the aquatic b

33:27

osphere project and what we're d

33:27

ing here in Alberta telling t

33:30

e story of water. Check us out a

33:30

aquatic biosphere.ca. And if y

33:35

u have any questions or c

33:35

mments about the show, we'd l

33:38

ve to hear them. Email us at c

33:38

nservation at aquatic b

33:43

osphere.org. Please don't f

33:43

rget to like, subscribe and l

33:48

ave us a review. It really h

33:48

lps us out. Thanks and it's b

33:51

en a splash