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Chase design. I

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made sure. I got

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one. It's funny.

0:46

Today on we can do hard things.

0:48

We are speaking with and mostly

0:50

listening to Gloria Steinham.

0:54

Glorious is

0:57

Glorious Dynum.

0:58

She

1:01

is a writer, lecturer, political

1:03

activist, feminist organizer, and

1:05

lifelong listener. She's

1:07

the author of the Truth. We'll set you free,

1:10

but first it will piss you off -- Mhmm. --

1:12

my life on the road, moving

1:14

beyond words, revolution from

1:16

within and outrageous acts and everyday

1:18

rebellions, and A founder

1:20

of New York Magazine, Ms. Magazine,

1:24

the National Women's Political Caucus,

1:26

the Ms. Foundation for Women the

1:28

free to be foundation, and the women's

1:30

media center in the United States. Although

1:34

she wants us to be linked and not ranked,

1:36

It's true that she is widely regarded as

1:38

the iconic leader of the second wave feminist

1:41

movement. She has spent decades

1:43

traveling in this other countries as an

1:45

organizer and a listener. She's

1:47

particularly interested in the shared

1:49

origins of sex and race cast

1:52

systems gender roles and

1:54

child abuse as roots of violence, and

1:56

non violent conflict resolution in the

1:59

wisdom of indigenous cultures, and

2:01

in organizing across boundaries for

2:03

peace and justice. In

2:06

two thousand thirteen, she was awarded

2:08

presidential medal of freedom by president

2:10

Barack Obama. And in two thousand

2:12

nineteen, she received the Freedom

2:14

Award from the National Civil Rights Museum.

2:17

She lives in New York City and

2:20

in the DNA of every woman

2:22

who is trying to give birth to a movement.

2:25

Or to herself? Yes. Welcome,

2:28

Gloria. Thank you for doing

2:30

so many hard things with such genacity

2:33

and wisdom and humor and most

2:35

importantly, with the refusal to

2:38

leave anyone behind. Well,

2:41

thank you for that introduction. I'm already

2:44

worrying about, can I live up to my

2:52

But I'm really looking

2:54

forward to this talk today

2:56

because I know I'm gonna learn

2:57

too? Oh my goodness.

2:59

So We would love to begin

3:01

where it all began with

3:02

Ruth, your mother. You

3:05

knew your mother as a woman whose life was ruled

3:07

by her mental illness, and by the age

3:09

of ten, in fact, you were her caretaker.

3:12

And later on, you learned that she was a

3:14

pioneering journalist with huge ambitions

3:17

and a man she loved, both of which she

3:19

never pursued. In

3:22

Ruth's song, which I reread

3:24

all the time. You said

3:26

of her, I miss her, but

3:29

perhaps no more in-depth than

3:31

I did in life. Oh,

3:35

does that line speak to

3:39

so much? Can you tell us what

3:41

you meant by that? I

3:44

think many of us had mothers

3:46

who could not be fully

3:49

their own talented, autonomous,

3:51

independent selves and

3:54

that's a source of sorrow for us.

3:56

And also, in some

3:58

ways, we're living out the unlived lives

4:00

of our mothers. Mhmm. I'm a journalist

4:03

and I'm happy to be a journalist, but I'm

4:05

sure that it had something to do with the

4:07

fact that I knew that my mother

4:09

had work for the Toledo Blade,

4:11

and she used to show me how to fold a

4:14

piece of paper to make a, like, a

4:16

reporter's notebook in your palm

4:18

before there were reporters' notebook.

4:20

I mean, I'm I'm sure that I absorbed

4:23

some of the love for it

4:25

from her And the

4:28

sorrow is that she should have been

4:30

able to complete her own

4:32

life and to continue with what she loved

4:34

and she just couldn't.

4:37

Mhmm. Can you tell us about when

4:40

you asked your mom about why she didn't pursue

4:42

the love and ambitions of her life?

4:45

Well, I knew that

4:47

she had not actually left

4:49

the Toledo blade,

4:51

the big local newspaper in

4:53

Toledo. Until my

4:55

older sister, she's ten

4:57

years older than I am, was about six.

5:00

So I realized that she

5:02

had tried to continue even

5:05

after she had

5:07

a child to look out for

5:09

and even after She

5:12

was married to my father,

5:14

a wonderfully kind, but kind of

5:16

also irresponsible person. But

5:20

I I realized that it had been such

5:22

a toll on her that she

5:24

had had what was then termed

5:26

a nervous breakdown, quote unquote, and

5:29

been unable to function, spent

5:31

almost a year in a sanatorium. And

5:34

when she came out, I think her

5:37

spirit was

5:37

broken. She felt she couldn't continue

5:40

as she wished to.

5:40

Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah.

5:43

And I love this part

5:44

of I think it's an on the road. When

5:46

you said, why didn't you

5:49

continue the ambition? Go with that

5:51

man who you were truly in love

5:53

with. What did she

5:55

said? You well, then you wouldn't

5:57

have been born.

5:58

Mhmm. Yes. It's hard to argue

6:00

with that. Yes. But

6:03

in your mind, you did I did I did argue

6:05

with that. I mean, he did say, but that would have

6:08

been okay. And indeed, I said,

6:10

but you would have been born instead. But

6:16

that fate was the same

6:18

for a lot of women. And indeed, it still

6:20

is. You know, there are a lot of women

6:22

who still have to give up

6:25

their dreams and their occupations in

6:28

order to take

6:30

care of children. It's still the case

6:32

that women care for children

6:34

more than men do even though there's not

6:37

a star in the east. Children have

6:39

fathers too. I mean -- Mhmm. -- fathers should

6:41

be equal, equally responsible.

6:44

So it's better because of

6:47

the civil rights movement, the women's movement,

6:49

all the great social justice movements,

6:52

but it's still unequal. Mhmm.

6:54

Very unequal.

6:56

And you realize that later that what

6:58

you had when you were young

7:00

attributed to some

7:03

personal or individual failure

7:05

in your mother, you realize that it was

7:07

actually this structural failure,

7:10

that it wasn't that she was crazy,

7:12

but that the system

7:14

that she was born into was crazy.

7:16

And you

7:19

dedicate your life to making

7:21

sure that women know that they are not broken

7:24

but they were born into a system that was

7:25

intended to break

7:28

their spirits. Mhmm. Can

7:30

you talk to us about talking

7:32

circles and how they

7:34

change everything in

7:37

terms of people understanding that

7:39

they are not crazy, but they're all part

7:41

of this system

7:43

that is making them feel

7:45

that way. I

7:48

I think this simple act, whether it's a talking

7:50

circle or two women, you

7:52

know, at at a kitchen table or whatever

7:54

it is, of being

7:56

able to tell the truth about

7:59

your feelings and your life experience and

8:02

be heard and hear

8:05

someone else's truth is is

8:07

how we understand the

8:09

collective truth. Mhmm. It's

8:11

possible to understand it from reading

8:14

statistics sticks and so on, but I think it's much

8:16

more likely if we hear

8:19

other people's personal stories that

8:21

we identify with. So

8:23

every social justice movement

8:25

that I'm aware of started out that way.

8:28

The civil rights movement started in black

8:30

churches in the south with people test stifying

8:32

about what happened to them. The

8:34

anti Vietnam war movement started

8:37

with a few men

8:39

resisting going off to

8:41

what was an unjust or in the first place.

8:44

And there's nothing more

8:46

basic or radical than

8:48

telling the truth. And listening

8:51

to the truth from other people. Mhmm.

8:55

In so many photographs of you and

8:57

your organizing partners, whether it's you

8:59

and Bella Abzug, Flo Kennedy,

9:02

Dorothy Pittman Hughes, or Wilma

9:04

Mankiller. You all seem

9:06

to be laughing. There's

9:08

so much joy and laughter.

9:11

We have to understand how this is possible

9:14

after so many decades of fighting against

9:16

this unrelenting bullshit. How

9:19

were you and are you so full

9:22

of laughter instead of bitterness?

9:25

Well, I think we need each other. I'm not

9:27

sure that if I were isolated, I would be

9:29

laughing. Right. Maybe. But

9:32

laughter is is crucial, you know, because

9:35

laughter turns out to be the

9:37

one emotion that can't be

9:39

compelled. Mhmm. It's a proof

9:41

of freedom. And in

9:44

many native American cultures, there's

9:46

a God of laughter who

9:48

is neither male nor female and connects

9:51

the known world to the unknown world.

9:54

You can make somebody afraid, obviously.

9:56

You can even make someone

9:58

feel they're in love if they're kept isolated

10:01

and dependent for long enough, but

10:03

you can't make them laugh. And

10:05

I just love that as a

10:08

proof of freedom and laughing

10:10

together is such a

10:12

communal experience. And

10:14

I think we should be aware of churches

10:17

and temples that keep us from

10:19

laughing. You know, wait a minute.

10:21

What is that about? Right.

10:25

I can't stop thinking about the

10:27

laughter as proof of freedom because,

10:30

Gloria, one of the things that makes me so furious

10:33

about myself is when I giggle,

10:35

like, it's compulsory at

10:38

something a man says it isn't funny. It's

10:40

like I'm in the middle

10:42

of this mandatory scripted like, it's

10:44

my job in any public square

10:47

to reward a man for

10:49

mediocreity or bullshit. The other evening,

10:51

I was at dinner with the guy, and it was a work

10:53

thing, so there was a power differential. And

10:56

I couldn't say what I wanted to say. I really

10:58

couldn't in that moment because there were other people there, but

11:01

I swore to myself what I'm not gonna do is

11:03

laugh. I'm not gonna laugh.

11:06

At

11:06

any of the things he says and then expects me to laugh, and

11:08

Goh, it felt like a war. He

11:10

would talk and then would refuse to giggle.

11:13

And then he looked confused and

11:15

furious. And then once he said something so

11:17

arrogant that I actually burst until

11:19

after, and he looked like he

11:21

wanted to kill me. Well,

11:24

now, that's very interesting. You've raised

11:26

a whole other frontier

11:29

of laughter that I wasn't thinking

11:31

about. I was thinking of the kind

11:35

of sincere irresistible desire

11:37

to laugh and you're

11:39

thinking about compulsory laughter

11:41

as an expected response to

11:44

bullshit or, you know, whatever. Right?

11:46

Mhmm. So thank you for saying that. Now

11:49

from now

11:49

on, I should talk about the resistance to

11:51

phoneme laughter. Big laughter.

11:54

Right? Like, it felt like

11:57

the bravest thing in the world. I felt

11:59

like I am a warrior of non

12:01

luster. And

12:04

then what I think about, like, Christine

12:06

Blazy Ford, when she's talking about the laughter

12:08

of the men, when she testified and she said,

12:10

what is indelible in the hippocampus is the

12:12

laughter. There's something about

12:14

laughter that is so fraught with power

12:16

and, I I guess, proof

12:19

of freedom. Yes. Well, that's yeah. That's a

12:21

belittling. Yes. Lofter.

12:24

Yeah. No. I agree.

12:26

Because when you think about it, yes, the one

12:28

that can't be compelled is the

12:30

actual axiomatic response to

12:32

something where it's just the reflection of your

12:35

connection and joy and and

12:37

solidarity with that person. You get Mhmm.

12:40

But then the fake laugh that you're

12:42

talking about Glennon, like, I think

12:44

of a fake laugh

12:47

is exactly like a fake orgasm and a fake

12:49

orgasm is exactly like a fake laugh. Both

12:51

are intended to placate the outside.

12:54

While slowly killing you

12:55

inside. Mhmm. Because it's

12:58

this idea that it isn't for

13:00

you. It's for keeping the out

13:02

setting. Steady. Steady. Yeah. We're

13:05

giving up on our right to have that pleasure

13:07

and enjoyment. And instead, placating

13:09

the moment the power dynamics that we're

13:11

in. Right.

13:12

And it's such a form of internal control

13:14

-- Mhmm. -- because it isn't as

13:16

if there's anything

13:19

forcing you. You know?

13:23

It's an acquiescence -- Mhmm.

13:25

-- internally.

13:27

So, okay, this is the

13:29

impulse not to laugh

13:32

is just as important as being able

13:34

to live. Yes. Yes. I

13:36

realized that with Tisch, I was at the grocery store with

13:38

my daughter and some dude said something

13:40

that was really dumb and I giggled. And

13:42

Tisch looked at me as if I had betrayed.

13:45

The earth and I had.

13:48

Well, that's great. How how old is she?

13:50

She is now sixteen. But

13:53

she's been fighting the fight since she was about

13:55

three. Howard Bauchner: No, well, that's that's great because

13:57

that's yes, the younger

14:01

people around us can be great directives.

14:03

Mhmm. Yeah. Does that look?

14:06

Right.

14:06

That look of betrayal. Yes.

14:16

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15:23

It might be easy for people to think

15:25

of you as a superhero who

15:27

happens to be made for

15:29

conflict. I think of Glennon in this way

15:31

too. But you talk all the time

15:34

about how you actually hate conflict.

15:36

You cry when you are angry. Yes,

15:39

I do hate conflict. And I

15:42

guess part of the reason that

15:44

I became a writer was so I could

15:46

deal with conflict in

15:49

a peaceful setting and

15:52

the French who have a phrase for everything

15:54

have phrase It's

15:58

the words that you think of on the staircase,

16:00

on the way out, that you should have

16:02

said and didn't say. So if

16:04

you're a writer, you

16:07

have a a place for those

16:09

words. But whether it's

16:11

laughing or not laughing or

16:14

saying what you really it

16:16

it's all about the right to be authentic

16:20

and not to be so

16:22

governed by the shoulds

16:24

of life, what you should do. That

16:27

it takes over your body,

16:29

your face, your

16:31

laughter, and even your voice.

16:33

Yeah. I think I was

16:35

telling my sister what we had read something that

16:38

you wrote about laughter and I was telling her that

16:41

the thing that makes me the saddest that my

16:43

mom does is GIGO when she should,

16:46

whoever who has said the thing. And the thing that

16:48

makes me most joyful is

16:50

when my mom

16:52

lasts from her belly, and

16:54

it looks ridiculous. And it She's,

16:56

like, hyperventilating.

16:58

Snordant. Yes. And It's

17:00

what I see my mom the most free, and it is often

17:02

when she's with her sisters. Mhmm.

17:05

They're her grandkids. And

17:08

Yeah. I guess it has to do with

17:11

bodily autonomy.

17:13

Yeah. No authenticity. Have you told

17:15

her that? Nobody

17:16

will listen to this. So, hey, mom. Love

17:18

that about me, Patricia.

17:21

Great. Hey, mom. I'm I'm sending

17:23

him my love

17:23

too. I'm laughter. A

17:26

laughter of your own. Yeah. Perhaps

17:28

that's we should do

17:29

that. We should say that as well as a room

17:32

of your own. Half of

17:34

your own. Yes. Speaking

17:36

of bodily autonomy, you say that

17:38

the root of sexism

17:41

is controlling reproduction. And

17:45

many people think of reproductive justice

17:47

as kind of one slice of the

17:49

pie. Why is it that

17:51

you believe that every aspect of

17:53

liberation is predicated on

17:56

that? Well, it's

17:58

the most universal and the most basic.

18:01

I'm not saying that people who are

18:03

weights or domestic workers

18:05

without rights It's not that that's

18:07

necessarily immediately connected

18:09

to reproduction. But the

18:11

very definition of patriarchy is

18:14

controlling women's bodies as

18:16

the means of reproduction because

18:19

we happen to have wounds. And

18:22

there were many

18:24

centuries and cultures before

18:27

patriarchy. It wasn't always

18:29

this way. The power to give

18:31

birth was a

18:34

reason why women were equal

18:36

and powerful and not something

18:39

to be. To be controlled.

18:41

I remember it was sitting once

18:44

with women in the Kalahari desert, and

18:46

they were showing me the

18:48

natural growing herbs that

18:51

they used for contraception and

18:54

abortifations. And that

18:56

they also used to increase

18:58

fertility. So, obviously,

19:00

ever since there have been human beings

19:03

and this is probably two

19:05

of animals too. There

19:07

have been ways of increasing

19:10

and decreasing fertility

19:12

according to the food supply

19:15

or how many children

19:17

or cubs you already

19:18

have. I mean, it's always been present. Mhmm.

19:22

And

19:22

isn't that part of how the witch trial started

19:24

looking for women who were using herbs

19:27

to control?

19:29

Yes. Yes. And and and which has

19:31

got the reputation for

19:33

quote, eating babies, unquote, because

19:36

woman would go in to see which

19:39

pregnant and come out unpregnant that

19:42

was very sinister and

19:44

the witch trials of course, went on not only

19:47

in

19:47

Europe, but here too in New England. Mhmm.

19:50

So the PR hasn't changed much. No.

19:56

I'm trying to ask you about this. So something

19:58

I'm constantly learning is that

20:00

one can be a feminist

20:03

who is white and not be a

20:05

white feminist because white

20:08

feminism is a brand of

20:10

feminism that seeks more proximity

20:12

to hierarchical power instead of the

20:15

destruction of hierarchy altogether.

20:17

So if Pachearchy is a latter

20:19

white feminism identifies up

20:22

instead of down, and

20:24

white feminism is just forever abandoning

20:27

folks. It helps white women kinda sneak

20:29

in the

20:29

door. That that's interesting because that's a that's

20:32

another way of putting it I would

20:35

just say a feminism doesn't

20:37

include all women. It's

20:39

not

20:39

feminism. There really is

20:42

no such thing is fight feminism. So

20:47

what is the kind of quote feminism

20:49

So examples, a Betty for Dan in the sixties

20:51

insisting that feminism, at first,

20:54

move on without lesbians or,

20:57

like, right now, one of the

20:59

examples that I would think of is the terfs who existing

21:01

the feminism, shut the door and trans women.

21:04

So it seems like it's

21:06

mostly related to win white women

21:08

run things, but what what is that?

21:11

If it's not feminism, it seems to be there's

21:13

taste of that that is tricking people

21:15

into thinking it's

21:16

feminism. What is it? Well,

21:18

I think we're we're born into

21:20

some kind of hierarchy. Mhmm.

21:23

And in order to move up

21:25

in the hierarchy, we may think we

21:27

have to imitate a hierarchical mind.

21:30

So if you're identifying

21:32

up only,

21:35

then it may be much whiter

21:37

up there than it should be. Mhmm. Mhmm.

21:40

But it's still, to me, not feminism

21:43

because if just in the dictionary,

21:45

you know, feminism includes all women,

21:48

or it's not feminism?

21:49

Mhmm. So

21:51

we have a lot of theories,

21:53

but why Gloria do you believe that so

21:56

many of us white women

21:58

are still voting with the patriarchy?

22:04

Well, for one thing, a

22:06

large proportion of what women are

22:08

dependent on the identity and incomes

22:11

of white

22:11

men. Mhmm. So they

22:13

may be voting the interests of their husbands.

22:16

Mhmm.

22:17

They may not have information

22:20

to the contrary. So

22:23

in in some ways, it's amazing that

22:25

the majority of white women are not voting.

22:30

You know, in the way that they're supposed

22:32

to and the ever increasing

22:34

majority. Because it is

22:37

kind of crucial

22:40

where your income is coming from and

22:42

who your neighbors are and what you know.

22:45

Mhmm. And it's the

22:47

job of a movement to make a another

22:50

supportive force in the

22:53

world so that there's more choice.

22:57

It's so interesting to me because it

22:59

just occurred to me that, you know, we're talking

23:01

about fake laughing at men and

23:04

fake orgasm. Is it possible

23:07

that we fake

23:09

laugh at offensive

23:11

things. For the same reason, we

23:13

fake orgasm, for the same

23:15

reason we vote.

23:20

With men because we believe that

23:22

we somehow have a stake in

23:25

their happiness, that if their content were

23:27

treated better. Whether it's the grocery

23:29

store or the bedroom or the polls that

23:31

on some level we believe that pleasing

23:34

them

23:35

will make our life easier. To be safe.

23:38

Safety. Well, it's it's not just belief

23:40

if you're entirely dependent on a man's

23:42

income. You

23:44

know, but women do in those

23:47

situations also rebel. I mean, I

23:49

remember meeting a woman after one

23:51

election who told me she locked her husband in

23:53

the bathroom for the entire election

23:55

day because she realized that his

23:57

vote negated her

23:58

vote. Wow. So she

24:00

locked him in the bathroom so he couldn't vote.

24:07

It takes all approaches, doesn't it?

24:10

Oh my gosh. But it's so what

24:12

you're saying. It's like a fake vote almost. Even

24:14

Gloria just said that

24:16

we need to extend choice. Expand choice.

24:20

For voting. Like applying the word choice

24:22

for voting because if you believe your only security

24:24

is in the fact that your husband stays in

24:26

power, do you? Feel

24:28

that you have a choice? Well,

24:31

I mean, that may be localized, individualized

24:34

economic truth. But the

24:36

larger truth is that unless we

24:38

vote, we don't exist.

24:40

You know, we don't have a voice in

24:43

the governance of our

24:46

county, city, nation,

24:48

whatever it is. Mhmm.

24:51

And that's the role of the movement. If it

24:53

is true that I will with

24:55

you and my life is easier or

24:57

better, then the role of

24:59

a movement is to create an

25:02

opportunity to

25:03

say, no. Actually, that is the thing --

25:05

Mhmm. --

25:06

that will make

25:06

my life better and easier. Mhmm. And

25:09

so when our our schools should be

25:11

doing it too. Mhmm. You know, our

25:13

civics courses, our American history

25:15

courses. Why did we fight a civil

25:17

war over the vote and equal

25:19

citizenship.

25:20

Mhmm. Why did people die for

25:22

it? Yeah.

25:25

It is interesting. I was reading the poem that

25:27

Alice Walker wrote about you, called

25:29

she, and there's

25:32

this one stanza that says you make activism

25:34

irresistible because you yourself are irresistible

25:37

and That makes me think

25:39

about what you're saying, that we have to create a movement

25:42

that looks and feels like what we

25:44

actually want. So that

25:46

there's another place to go other than the

25:49

shitty constellation

25:50

prizes, which are unequal structures.

25:52

Because we're social animals. You

25:54

know, we there's a reason why solitary

25:57

confinement is the worst punishment everywhere

25:59

in the world. Mhmm. So

26:01

so we need each other and we need

26:03

to create

26:05

a supportive place where

26:07

women can vote for themselves. Yeah.

26:10

Because the pictures of you laughing

26:13

it makes me ache. That's

26:15

what we want. We wanna be powerful

26:19

places with women who are laughing.

26:22

Like, that's how else

26:24

to say it other than I feel the

26:26

yearning come up when I see

26:29

you doing that. With your sisters.

26:31

And that's the alternative to

26:34

this other thing. It's good that you say

26:36

that because it's probably true that when

26:38

you say the word movement, it

26:40

seems serious

26:42

and difficult. Mhmm. And

26:44

so we should include the laughter,

26:46

absolutely. So I wanna ask you

26:49

about a story I read about

26:51

the ask the turtle. It's kind

26:53

of a parable

26:55

and it happened to me when I was in

26:57

college and taking geology,

27:00

which I thought was the easiest of the science

27:02

requirements. Right? So

27:06

so we were on a field

27:08

trip along the Connecticut River

27:11

And while

27:13

the professor was telling

27:16

us about the meander curves

27:18

of the Connecticut River or something, I

27:20

had wandered up a little

27:22

dirt road to the embankment

27:25

of an asphalt road and

27:27

there was a a turtle there

27:30

in the soft dirt that was

27:32

the embankment. And I thought,

27:34

oh, look at that for a turtle. It's crawled

27:37

out of the way up here from the river and,

27:39

you know, it's so

27:41

sad, but it was a big snapping

27:44

turtle. So I pushed

27:46

and pulled and tugged and got this

27:48

turtle back down to put in

27:50

the river. And just as I that

27:53

swam away in the river, The professor

27:55

came up behind me and said, you know, that

27:57

turtle has probably spanned at least

27:59

a month crawling up that road

28:02

in order to lay us eggs. In

28:04

the mud of the embankment.

28:07

And I felt terrible, of course.

28:10

And that became a source

28:12

of a, I think, still very

28:15

valid political rule, which is always

28:17

ask the turtle. No. No.

28:20

Don't act on behalf of other people

28:23

ask

28:23

first. It's so important

28:25

because the people with a lived experience are

28:28

the experts. If you get in

28:30

a group and you're deciding how to help

28:32

a group of people that is not

28:33

present, you are not helping us.

28:35

You are a nightmare. Is what you ask? You're

28:37

a nightmare. Well,

28:40

you have a great impulse. It's just that

28:42

in before you act, you need to

28:44

ask the people who are most

28:47

impacted?

28:48

Yes. So this makes

28:50

me think of screwing up in public.

28:53

Okay. I have

28:55

had loads of any turtle moments, Gloria.

28:58

Even though I've read everything you've written, still

29:00

had some turtle moments. So We all have

29:02

turtle moments. A

29:05

lot of us are afraid to step

29:07

up and speak out because we

29:09

know that it's not a matter of if

29:11

but when we're gonna fuck up and get our ass

29:13

handed to us. So I myself

29:16

has deservedly had my ass handed

29:18

to me many times. One

29:20

of the things that makes me so heartened

29:22

is when I read that you call yourself

29:24

thin skinned. And

29:27

this thing that Flo Kennedy said to you

29:29

blew my mind and I've been wanting to ask you about

29:31

it she once

29:33

said to you after a public ass kicking.

29:37

She said the ass kicking are to

29:39

keep your ass sensitive. I

29:44

just my heart exploded when I read that sentence,

29:46

but can you explain to us what you

29:48

believe she meant by that? It

29:51

serves a

29:52

purpose. I mean, it's it's called communication.

29:55

And when somebody

29:57

tells us that we could have done something better.

30:00

It's very valuable. Mhmm. It's

30:02

not that we failed. It's that we're learning.

30:04

Mhmm. And she was

30:06

always a wonderful teacher.

30:09

She was always very clear about that.

30:11

When you talk about Flow, I

30:14

think of her because

30:16

all the time we were lecturing together, there

30:19

would often be one, you

30:22

know, dissident male person in the

30:24

audience who would call out

30:26

to us, are you lesbians? And

30:29

Flo always said, are you my alternative?

30:35

Which made the audience laugh and didn't

30:38

pay his question the honor of answering

30:40

it, you know. Right. So good.

30:43

Exactly. No. Flow is a great

30:46

example in teacher. I

30:48

always think about my friend, doctor Yaba

30:50

Bray, who's an an unbelievable speaker

30:54

lecturer, teacher, and she always

30:56

says, if I'm correcting you, It's

30:59

because I believe I'm not wasting my

31:01

breath with

31:01

you. Like, it's an honor

31:04

to be corrected by me.

31:07

So And it's how we get

31:09

better. Mhmm. Frequently,

31:11

I think we have to ask and

31:13

say, please tell me what I'm doing

31:16

wrong or could do better Mhmm. --

31:19

because people, maybe especially

31:21

female

31:22

people, are reluctant to say that.

31:24

Do you think that sensitivity and thin

31:26

skin this is a a

31:28

plus in this sort of work as opposed

31:31

to a negative?

31:34

Well, it's a question of degree, isn't

31:36

it? Because we do have to go

31:39

forward into areas where

31:41

we're not supposed to go. So we have

31:43

to thicken up for the moment. Mhmm. But in

31:45

general, I think it's a plus. Yes. Mhmm.

31:47

Because it makes this more sensitive. To

31:50

what's going on in the outside world.

31:52

Mhmm. I'm curious. Has it

31:54

gotten easier? Because

31:56

I'm hoping that when I get to

31:58

sixties, seventies, eighties, I'm hoping

32:01

that I just give zero shits,

32:03

like, about negative

32:06

feedback. Yeah. Because you've been through

32:08

it for so long. Does it get

32:10

easier? I would say yes,

32:12

but I think what I

32:14

need to add is it's because there's a movement.

32:16

I mean, we're not meant to be isolated

32:19

individual revolutionary

32:22

pioneers or something. We, of

32:24

course, need other human beings. So

32:28

the learning process becomes

32:31

positive

32:33

one to go forward in

32:35

a more effective way

32:36

-- Mhmm.

32:36

-- not a rejection. That's practical

32:38

and logistical to me because whenever

32:41

I get in my turtle situations, it's because

32:43

I've gone rogue. I've gone rogue.

32:46

And I should be unturtled.

32:49

Like but when you

32:51

move with a group of people, any

32:53

criticism that comes is is to

32:55

the movement because you

32:57

have not moved alone. So

33:00

it's less

33:02

personal. It's true, but I'm worried

33:04

about your turtle self because I want your turtle

33:06

self to be. Set

33:09

free. I mean, I

33:13

mean, don't, you know, don't censor your your

33:15

individual turtle self either.

33:17

Also think that when you do get criticized,

33:19

that is proof of progress because

33:22

fifty years ago, they

33:24

were not even talking about Right? I think

33:26

that it was in the process that. Right. Yeah. It was

33:28

in the documentary. I think that that's really

33:30

interesting. And as a soccer

33:32

player, that's something that we came

33:35

to understand in a different way. When

33:37

people started criticizing us, we had

33:39

to actually learn how to take the criticism because

33:42

this was new territory. Nobody ever

33:44

gave a shit before to even criticize

33:46

us. So this is

33:46

like, hey, this is progress. Mhmm.

33:49

Yeah, in my life, in my Toledo

33:52

high school life,

33:55

girls did not do sports really. mean,

33:57

we complained bitterly even about doing

33:59

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34:02

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35:25

So prior to nineteen seventy

35:27

five, we have to talk about this because

35:29

the term sexual harassment did not even

35:31

exist. Sexual harassment was just

35:34

life. What

35:37

I want to know is what injustices are

35:39

we living through now that

35:41

we consider just

35:43

life? Oh, that's

35:45

fascinating. Well, I

35:47

would say that a big one, maybe

35:50

the biggest one, is we're

35:52

still not recognizing that children

35:55

generally speaking have two parents.

35:57

Mhmm. Not in all situations, but

35:59

in many,

36:01

men can and should be really

36:04

co parents, really

36:05

an equal parent. And

36:07

it's I I think it

36:09

had began to happen a little more during COVID

36:12

because everybody was at home. Mhmm.

36:15

And could see perhaps for

36:17

the first time on

36:20

a day long basis what

36:22

it takes to raise

36:25

infants and little children. Mhmm. So

36:27

we'll see, but perhaps that's been

36:29

helpful. But just

36:33

as women become whole people by

36:35

being active outside the home, men become

36:38

whole people by being active in

36:40

it.

36:40

Yes.

36:45

I love, Gloria. You said we've

36:47

begun to raise our daughters more like sons.

36:50

But few have the courage to raise our sons

36:52

more like our

36:53

daughters. Yes, we

36:55

did. Free to be you and me is

36:57

a collection of children's stories. So it's

36:59

it became a a book, a

37:01

record, a television show, which people

37:04

still see, I believe. And

37:07

and that that was for boys

37:09

as well as girls. I mean, there's a song called

37:11

William Monsadol, you know,

37:14

which is he's feels he

37:16

shouldn't and then his grandmother says

37:18

to him, no, it's very important, then

37:21

you learn how to take care of it, you know.

37:23

Mhmm. And and and the song

37:25

William Instadal became a kind

37:27

of anthem. Mhmm.

37:30

I love that it's framed as men just

37:32

being wholly human, not a

37:34

punishment. It's always framed as like

37:36

punishment, but actually it's an invitation

37:38

to full the full human experience.

37:40

It is. I I think that's the

37:43

punishment to all of us

37:45

For the idea of

37:47

gender, we're working our

37:49

way out of it. We're working

37:51

our way out of it. That's the thing that makes

37:53

all of this so tricky. In talking

37:55

about gender equality is that gender

37:57

is not

37:58

real. It makes it all tricky.

38:00

Your friendships that

38:03

have sustained

38:05

your work and your

38:07

spirit through these many

38:10

decades are deeply

38:12

touching And, specifically,

38:15

I really love your co

38:17

conspirator relationship with

38:20

Wilma Mankiller. The first female

38:22

principal chief of the Cherokee nation.

38:24

And you to plan to write

38:26

a book together about the wisdom

38:29

of original cultures but

38:31

she passed before you could write

38:33

it. We are going to have our

38:35

different Caitlin Curtis on to talk about

38:38

that very issue. But

38:40

I wondered since writing that book together

38:42

was so important to you,

38:44

is there a piece of wisdom that

38:47

you think that your friend would

38:49

want us most to understand

38:52

from the indigenous wisdom that was

38:54

here long before we were. It's

38:56

hard because the wisdom itself is kind of

38:58

circular. Mhmm. Each thing depends

39:01

on the equality

39:03

of the next. Or the existence

39:05

of the next. But I think just

39:08

the knowledge that before

39:11

European explorers set foot on

39:13

this land, there were already

39:17

cultures that were egalitarian.

39:20

Even Benjamin Franklin who was not

39:23

you know, your least patriarchal of all

39:25

people. But anyway, he did

39:28

use the Iroquois Confederacy as

39:31

a as a model for the

39:33

constitution because there

39:36

were individual groups

39:38

linguistic groups, cooperative groups

39:40

all over the country, and they

39:42

came together in a long

39:45

house meeting in

39:47

which everyone spoke and turned to make

39:50

decisions. And that was

39:52

the basis for

39:54

our Congress. And for our

39:56

departure from what the

39:58

Europeans had left, which were which

40:01

were kings, you know. I

40:03

mean, they did not leave democracies

40:05

in which they were experienced. Mhmm. They

40:08

really experienced them

40:10

once they got here. So

40:13

I wish that our

40:15

courses in government or political

40:17

science began when

40:19

people began on this continent. In

40:23

my experience, they don't usually begin

40:27

with native American cultures, and I think

40:29

it would be helpful if they did. I

40:31

just wanted to say thank you for fighting

40:33

so hard to keep lesbians in the

40:35

women's movement. Just say

40:37

thanks for that. What do

40:39

you see now as most

40:42

important? Like, what are you waking

40:44

up every day?

40:47

Seeing as your first priority in

40:50

terms of the continued

40:52

movement? Well, I think, you know, to

40:54

your first point. I think lesbians were often

40:56

in the leadership of -- Mhmm. --

40:58

the women's movement and more

41:00

advanced in consciousness because

41:03

they were less likely to

41:05

have or to to need to have

41:08

mail support for one reason or

41:10

another, whether it was personal or in

41:13

jobs, or I mean, it's obviously

41:15

not a universal truth, but kind

41:17

of relatively speaking. And

41:20

what we forget what I forget

41:23

is that in the beginning of the women's open

41:25

in the early late sixties, early

41:27

seventies, and so on, the women's was

41:30

perceived as lesbian woman. Mhmm.

41:32

I remember being called by a

41:34

friend of mine, an editor I'd worked

41:36

with for years. Who

41:40

when I became

41:42

publicly identified with the women's movement,

41:45

called me up and said, Gloria, I didn't know you

41:47

were listening. You

41:50

heard it here first folks.

41:55

It's fascinating. No.

41:57

I hope we get over this because humans

42:02

and other animals love each other

42:04

and there is what you

42:06

might call same sex, sexual

42:08

behavior in birds,

42:11

in animal species. I

42:12

mean, hello, There's a lot of

42:14

sexual behavior that's not only directed

42:17

at reproduction. Mhmm. Mhmm.

42:19

Is that why lesbians piss off the patriarchy

42:22

so much? Because

42:24

we're having sex that's not based in

42:27

just reproduction? Yeah. Since

42:29

we have the one thing that guys don't

42:31

have, which is a womb, we're supposed

42:33

to use that womb for patriarchal

42:36

purposes. Mhmm. And they

42:38

clearly are not. I'm not either,

42:40

but it's just slightly less

42:42

obvious, I guess. I don't know.

42:46

It's interesting because three of us are activists

42:49

and we will continue to be

42:51

activists through the rest of our lives. I

42:53

need to know how you've been able to

42:55

sustain

42:57

the energy to keep doing

42:59

this work decade after decade

43:02

after decade. Like I'm waiting

43:04

for now. Can you give us some

43:06

tips. I feel like

43:09

I'm

43:10

looking at three of my tips. It's because

43:13

we are social creatures. We need each

43:15

other. And so I'm inspired by

43:18

what you do and and

43:20

my friends, you know,

43:22

whether it was Dorothy

43:24

Pittman Hughes or Flo Kennedy or Robin

43:26

Morgan or Amy

43:27

Richards, who's my colleague now. We have

43:29

each other.

43:31

Is that what you think power is? I've

43:34

never heard you define what

43:36

is power. Real power. Not

43:38

the the hierarchy

43:40

and the structures that we exist

43:43

under in this

43:43

moment. But what do you think is the source of

43:46

true power?

43:47

Well, I don't know if we can say it in that way,

43:50

one source, but I I think of

43:52

power too, not power over.

43:56

So I I don't want the

43:58

power to dictate to other people

44:00

because then I will not

44:03

benefit from their wisdom.

44:06

But I'd like to have the power to

44:08

do, you know, to create

44:12

more equality and kindness

44:16

in whatever the

44:18

institution is, you know, whether

44:20

it's my house, my neighborhood,

44:23

the city of New York,

44:25

the government of the country, getting

44:28

rid of Trump, you know,

44:31

whatever it is. Right. Yeah.

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45:48

things for more information. I've

45:54

heard you say that The future

45:56

depends entirely on what

45:58

each of us does every day because

46:01

of movement is only people moving.

46:04

That feel so hopeful to

46:07

me because the problem sometimes seems so

46:09

huge and intractable that how

46:11

do we know as everyday people where

46:14

we fit into it and how we are

46:16

additive to it. For

46:18

example, you mentioned power

46:20

dynamics in individual houses.

46:23

If I am person working to

46:25

establish equality in

46:29

caretaking four children

46:31

in my home.

46:33

Is that part of the movement? Am I contributing

46:37

to the movement for

46:39

equality in doing that in my individual

46:41

life? Yes,

46:43

absolutely. Because you're normalizing

46:47

women as achievers outside the

46:49

home and men as caregivers inside

46:51

the home that is both

46:53

get to do both. And

46:57

what happens in our families is

47:01

the determinant of our

47:03

political views -- Mhmm. --

47:05

whether for or against in a very powerful

47:08

way -- Mhmm. -- in order to

47:10

do it, we have to see it. Yeah.

47:13

So the revolutionary

47:16

power of the of

47:18

an egalitarian equally

47:21

nurturing home is huge. Mhmm.

47:25

So that's why maybe you're part of the

47:27

movement if you're not laughing

47:29

at offensive things that people say

47:31

as you're normalizing.

47:33

Yeah. Whenever you respond as

47:35

your authentic self, and

47:38

and and not according to whatever

47:41

form of the traditional

47:43

power structures around you. You're part

47:45

of the movement. Yeah.

47:47

Because that's a challenge. It's a challenge

47:49

to not react. But

47:51

also, it's making change. Mhmm. I mean,

47:53

what what kids see in the home? If they if

47:56

kids see their

47:58

father's as equal caregivers even,

48:00

you know, when they're very little. It's

48:03

a life changing

48:03

difference. Mhmm. I

48:06

read one of your partners that I think if

48:08

you don't know how to do it, just close your eyes.

48:10

And imagine you're sharing your

48:12

home with another woman. How do you

48:14

divide up the jobs?

48:17

Mhmm.

48:17

And then do that. No. It's interesting.

48:19

You say that because at the end of of

48:21

lectures with Flow or whatever, we would often

48:25

with the audience end up having this kind of

48:27

discussion. Mhmm. Just close

48:29

your eyes and pretend you're living with another woman.

48:32

And also, the audiences were full of wisdom.

48:34

I remember kind of worrying

48:37

about an older woman. We're

48:39

having a kind of body discussion and

48:41

I thought, oh, we're shocking her in

48:44

some way. And finally, she got

48:46

up and she said, well, when my husband

48:48

leaves his underwear on the

48:49

floor, I find it quite useful

48:51

to nail it to the floor. Yes. Yes.

49:00

So good. I remember

49:02

you saying that your grandmother was a

49:05

public feminist and a private isolationist?

49:07

Because it is possible to

49:10

be believing one thing on the outside, but then

49:12

still recreating. What what

49:14

did what did you mean by that? My father's

49:16

mother was a suffragist. And

49:19

she organized women

49:21

because even after women first

49:23

had the vote, they were kept from voting because

49:26

gangs of men and boys hung around the

49:28

voting place and sexually harassed

49:30

them

49:30

and, you know, chase them and so on.

49:33

Sounds familiar. Yeah.

49:36

So she organized women to go and vote

49:38

in groups. For instance, and

49:41

she started the first vocational high

49:43

school in Toledo. She was enormously

49:45

active. She

49:48

did cook dinner, I

49:51

believe, every night, and she had four sons

49:53

that she was doing

49:55

the most that she could do, I think. Mhmm.

49:58

Mhmm. Because she was, of course,

50:00

still economically dependent on my

50:02

grandmother. Mhmm.

50:05

Mhmm. I want to

50:09

end this podcast in a way

50:11

that I hope to do you honor

50:13

I became who I am

50:16

as a woman, a lesbian, and

50:18

an athlete because of

50:20

you and your sisters and

50:23

all of the work you've

50:24

done. Oh, that's so moving

50:26

because I feel like you're so

50:29

much beyond We

50:32

stand on glorious shoulder. I mean,

50:34

I never got beyond tap dancing in

50:36

the athletics

50:37

department.

50:37

So good. But but your sports.

50:40

Meachieve your voice giving women

50:43

a platform gave

50:46

the nineteen seventy two title

50:49

nine law traction that

50:51

gave me a chance. And I just

50:53

wanna thank you for mothering and

50:55

sistering me and

50:58

millions of others into

51:01

giving birth to ourselves.

51:04

Mhmm. You have changed the

51:06

world. You have changed my life and

51:08

you have changed the

51:09

world. Gloria. We

51:11

love you. We love you. Well,

51:13

no one no one could

51:15

ask for a better reward

51:18

than what you just said.

51:20

Nobody on earth. Thank you. Thank

51:23

you, Gloria. Oh

51:26

my gosh. We did it everybody.

51:29

Okay. Yeah. We can do hard things.

51:31

See you back here next time this

51:33

week. I'll give birth to your damn self.

51:35

Bye. Okay.

51:39

Thank you, Claudia.

51:41

Thank you for your time. No.

51:43

It was fun. Thank you so much. It's a gift.

51:45

Thank you. Thank you.

51:51

If this podcast means something

51:53

to you, it would mean so much to

51:55

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52:40

can do hard things, is produced in

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partnership with Heating's thirteen studios.

52:46

I give you Tish Mountain and

52:48

Brandy Carlyle. Through

52:52

fire. I came up

52:55

the other side.

53:01

Chase design. I

53:03

made sure. I got

53:06

one this morning. And

53:11

I continue to

53:13

believe that the

53:17

one for me. And

53:21

because I'm mine.

53:24

I want the final

53:37

destination. Scanning

53:43

directions to

53:46

places. They've never

53:49

been. To

53:51

be loved. We need

53:53

to be known. Finally,

53:57

fun. Oh, wait. Back

53:59

home. Do

54:01

that y'all ain't got

54:04

all spring.

54:08

We can do a

54:10

hard day. Bought

54:23

them. It felt like a

54:25

brand new star.

54:30

I'm not the problem.

54:33

Sometimes, things

54:35

fall on. And

54:40

I continue to

54:43

believe the

54:46

best people are

54:48

free. And

54:51

sometime, but

54:54

I'm finally fine. Final

55:07

destination. We

55:11

stopped asking direction. Some

55:16

places, they've never

55:19

been to

55:21

be we need

55:23

to finally

55:27

find the way back home.

55:31

Door and pick that

55:34

online spring.

55:39

We can do never

56:19

been loved.

56:23

We need to be loved. We need to be

56:26

fun. Spring.

56:38

We can do hard

56:42

things. Yeah. We

56:44

can do