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1:09

Welcome back

1:17

to weaken you hard things. If you

1:19

have not listened to

1:22

part one of this series

1:25

about the Mary

1:27

Abigail Wombak. Please

1:29

go back and listen to the first episode. We

1:32

are interviewing my love

1:35

Amanda's sister-in-law,

1:37

Abi Wambach. The theme

1:39

that we keep coming back to in Abi's life

1:42

is love. From birth till

1:44

now, relentless pursuit

1:47

of love in all the different forms

1:49

that's come in her life so far, we've talked about

1:51

her mom, her love story with her mama, Judy,

1:54

her love story with soccer, the

1:56

soccer, the love story of

1:58

her first marriage, And

2:00

now we're gonna get into one

2:04

of my favorite topics, which

2:06

is addiction. And

2:08

what it is. And I think

2:10

it can be different thing for everybody.

2:14

What I've always thought of when

2:17

I think about you and you're drinking, is

2:22

that you seem

2:25

to like a lot of people use

2:27

drinking as a way of not knowing

2:31

something that in your bones, you know.

2:34

For example, in the last episode, you talked

2:36

a lot about knowing that something

2:38

was missing in soccer.

2:41

Because you got to the highest of the heights and it

2:43

didn't, as you say, easier angst.

2:46

Mhmm. You also had a knowing,

2:48

and this is all the same time in your life that your

2:50

marriage

2:51

was not working. Mhmm. But

2:53

you could not let yourself know that

2:56

because you

2:57

are not a quitter. That's weird because

2:59

you felt like you were carrying the entire queer,

3:01

like, future of marriage on your back and you couldn't

3:04

let this marriage fail because then Everyone

3:06

would be right and it would be proof that gay marriage doesn't

3:08

work because you your

3:11

ex wife. Mhmm. And so

3:13

you couldn't let yourself know.

3:15

That this

3:16

was never gonna work. Mhmm. And so you

3:18

did what? I drink. You

3:20

drink. Tell us about drinking and what it was

3:22

in your life. From

3:25

the beginning. So I

3:32

started drinking when I was young,

3:35

being the youngest of of

3:37

seven kids, being

3:39

twelve, thirteen, fourteen years old and

3:41

brothers and sisters off in

3:43

college and they're doing the drinking thing and then they

3:45

come home for breaks or

3:48

summer and they're doing the drinking

3:50

thing, they're actively doing it. I

3:52

learned that that was what people

3:55

did for fun

3:56

to, like -- Mhmm. -- blow off steam, you

3:58

know? I'm belonging

3:59

because that's what your big sisters and brothers are doing.

4:01

Yeah. And I actually noticed

4:04

interestingly enough when I was young, I

4:06

noticed that they became more

4:08

vulnerable people while

4:10

drinking. That's so

4:13

true. They would tell me their feelings.

4:15

We would connect. It looked

4:17

like fun. You know? And so I

4:19

got, like, the memo. Oh, this is what we

4:22

do. And this also supports the

4:24

idea of splitting

4:26

myself from soccer player into

4:28

normal person. Like, oh,

4:30

I'm going to prove that I

4:32

can be a normal person as

4:36

much as I'm gonna prove that I can

4:38

be the best soccer player. And

4:40

so I took drinking

4:42

on as, like, the thing I did

4:44

whenever I wasn't playing soccer. I

4:47

did it through college and then my young

4:49

adult life. And if

4:51

I were to be really honest with myself, and

4:54

looking back at all the heartache that

4:56

I had in my life, it was the very thing that

4:58

I went to to

5:01

suppress at

5:03

least that's what I thought at the time to

5:06

fix my heartbreak for

5:08

whatever situation I was in. And

5:11

it was a it was a real love

5:13

hate relationship that drinking was. Mhmm.

5:16

She was my best friend at times

5:18

and also the the

5:20

the biggest fucking bitch. Yeah.

5:22

Yeah. Friends of me. Yeah.

5:25

And I

5:27

loved her. Mhmm. I really

5:29

did. I really felt like this

5:32

is a part of my identity that I'm going

5:34

to hold on to for dear

5:37

life. Mhmm. What

5:38

does it look like babe? You're out

5:40

drinking and then you're private in drinking.

5:42

It depended on where I was

5:45

emotionally. If I was in a good place,

5:47

then it was just, like, free fun loving.

5:50

You know? Like, everybody's out. We're doing we're

5:52

doing really fun things.

5:54

And if I had any kind of heartache or

5:57

something that I was trying not to know, it

5:59

would be like me, by

6:01

myself, pouring

6:04

the biggest glass of whiskey you've ever

6:06

seen as like a quote unquote nightcap.

6:09

Yep. Wife goes

6:11

to bed and I'm just

6:13

sitting alone on the couch with

6:16

like a six finger whiskey,

6:19

a ridiculous amount of alcohol I

6:21

was trying to blackout.

6:24

Mhmm. I didn't have the off switch.

6:26

So until my body fell asleep,

6:28

that's when I stopped consuming alcohol.

6:30

During certain seasons

6:32

of my life. I was

6:34

always struggling with, do I think that do

6:37

I think I'm drinking too much? And I

6:39

would do it for short periods of time

6:41

because soccer for so much protected me

6:44

from that part of myself. It was just

6:47

like safety mechanism that

6:49

was in

6:50

place. Couldn't go

6:51

too far because -- Yeah.

6:53

-- when I

6:53

was on the road, I'd be on the road for three weeks. I didn't

6:55

have single drink. Totally fine.

6:57

That's why they

6:58

say it's not how often you drink. It's how

7:00

you drink. And if you only drink once

7:02

a year, but you lose all of your mind and your

7:04

life and your relationship Yeah. I was one

7:07

of those people too that, like, he's trying to

7:09

get everybody to drink around me more.

7:11

Mhmm. I had some friends that they could

7:13

they could drink one glass of wine

7:15

at dinner, and I'm

7:16

like, the fuss.

7:18

No. What? No. I don't. I'm like the

7:20

bottle is open.

7:22

You can't just you can't put that cork

7:24

back in the

7:25

bottle. Like, the bottle needs to be finished.

7:27

Once you do it, 1st you pop, you can't

7:29

stop It's sprinkles out there.

7:32

Aren't you just so jealous of those

7:34

people who

7:34

can just drink? So babe,

7:36

what was your FIFA player

7:38

of the year moment with drinking. Like, when

7:40

did you finally realize no matter how

7:43

many rungs down I go on this drinking

7:46

ladder, it's never gonna love me

7:48

back.

7:50

Oh, man. Well, I think when she

7:53

got my mug shot on the ESPN ticker,

7:56

that'll do it. That'll

7:58

do it.

7:59

She did me she did me dirty.

8:01

She did you

8:01

real dirty with that.

8:03

Tell us the story, please. Tell us the story.

8:05

Yes. It was a few days after

8:08

I moved out of my

8:10

house because of the divorce.

8:12

I was getting separated for my first wife.

8:15

And I went golfing and drank

8:18

too much, lied

8:20

to my friends, told them I was getting

8:22

an Uber and

8:24

I drove. Oh, baby.

8:26

I got behind the wheel of a car and

8:30

ran a red light going back to

8:33

my apartment. And

8:35

I was so deep in my own, I

8:38

don't know, sadness. And

8:42

pity that I actually thought that

8:44

I was sober. Like,

8:46

I actually believed in my I

8:48

was like, oh, I haven't I

8:51

will not blow. So I was

8:53

like, yeah. Well, let's do this.

8:56

And then I blew into

8:58

the breathalyzer thing, and I

9:00

I was now convinced that

9:02

the machine was broken. Mhmm. And

9:05

I said, this is not right. You need I need

9:07

another machine. And, of course,

9:09

I was just completely fucked.

9:13

Mhmm. And so I remember, you know,

9:15

they I had I had

9:18

Burkenstocks on that night

9:21

Because I'm a gay person living in Portland,

9:23

Oregon.

9:25

They issue you those. Right? Yes. And

9:28

I remember being in the

9:30

jail cell and the other

9:32

women that were in there. They had

9:34

all of their shoelaces

9:38

taken out of their shoes. And so they just kept

9:40

walking around, they're sliding their feet.

9:42

And I kept thinking, these

9:44

people are crazy. This

9:47

is not where I belong, you know.

9:51

Mhmm. I remember crying so much

9:53

before they actually took that mug shot I

9:55

literally couldn't stop crying to

9:58

take the mug shot, and it was a

10:00

horrific photo. It looked like I was

10:03

I don't know. It was the worst night

10:05

of my life. I think my life is over

10:08

as I start sobering up sitting there.

10:11

I realize, oh my gosh, you

10:13

do belong here. You are fucked

10:15

up. You are exactly them. You just

10:17

got lucky that you're wearing fucking birkenstocks.

10:20

What was in the car? So I had

10:23

been moving all of my stuff. And that

10:25

morning, I had went and got all

10:27

of my gold medals my

10:29

jewelry, I got a for

10:32

my hundredth cap playing on the national team,

10:34

the most valuable pieces to my

10:36

existence as a person. Were

10:38

in my car. The car now

10:40

is gonna get parked on the side of the street because

10:42

I can't drive my car. And I,

10:44

like, bag the police officers. I was

10:46

like, my whole life is in this one

10:48

bag. I, like, need to

10:50

bring this one bag. Please And

10:53

so I begged them and they had to check it in at

10:55

the police department when we got there

10:57

at the police station. What were the

10:59

days after that like? What were they like

11:01

in your home? So

11:05

surprisingly,

11:06

my ex picked up the phone because I

11:08

made my one phone call. Mhmm.

11:11

And she picked

11:14

up the phone and she came and bailed

11:16

me out of jail next morning. And

11:19

I went back to the house

11:22

that she and I lived

11:24

in, and there were

11:27

news cameras outside. I

11:32

thought my life was over. Like,

11:35

I thought everything that I had spent my life

11:38

building and doing, playing

11:41

soccer, traveling the world, fighting for

11:43

women's equality, I

11:46

now was gonna be put in the category of

11:50

canceled. And

11:52

so I hold up in

11:54

my house. And I remember just, like,

11:57

crying and watching the ESPN ticker

11:59

and just seeing my mug shot over and

12:01

over and over again.

12:03

You're watching it? Like, you turn it on

12:05

to watch it. Oh, wow. That's very

12:08

Yeah. And my That's my statistic

12:10

on you. Yeah. I had to create a statement,

12:12

like a public statement to put out to the

12:14

press. And the

12:16

one that I first created was much

12:19

more mean to myself than

12:21

the one put out into the world. I was

12:23

really fucking doing a number. was beating

12:25

myself up, like nothing. Like, I had

12:27

never been beaten up. I don't know what

12:29

was happening, but something

12:32

was happening. And then

12:34

my agent sat down My lawyer

12:36

sat down at the table the next day

12:39

and explained the process. And

12:41

in Oregon, where

12:43

I was arrested, I could

12:46

enter in what's called a diversion program, and

12:48

this diversion program would require

12:51

me to be alcohol and drug free or

12:53

one year. I'd have to take

12:55

drug tests, I'd have to do victim impact

12:58

panel, I'd have to do therapy

13:01

that was court

13:03

ordered and moderated.

13:06

And when the lawyer told

13:08

me that I could not legally

13:11

drink for a year.

13:14

I, like, I let out a kind

13:16

of

13:18

god, I'm getting emotional thinking about it,

13:20

but It

13:23

was kind of like the Saab that

13:30

Like, you scream and, like, you're a baby just

13:32

born. Like, like, you

13:34

finally got your first breath.

13:37

And, you know, somebody, like,

13:39

took the keys away from me, literally.

13:42

And somebody, like, took

13:46

took my choice away. And

13:48

I that's all I needed. Like, I needed

13:50

that so much. I needed somebody to be

13:52

like, can't do it anymore. Or

13:54

else you'll be in jail. Like, I

13:56

needed and I needed

13:59

every second of the shame that that ESPN

14:01

ticker gave me. I

14:03

needed all of the

14:07

wake up call this

14:09

opportunity gave me. And

14:12

it needed to be as big as it was for me

14:14

to wake up. To for me to actually, like,

14:16

see what was happening in

14:19

my life. And I remember in

14:21

the moment being like, okay, I'm

14:24

going to make this the best thing that

14:26

ever happened to me. Like, this is

14:29

this is horrible right now

14:31

and sad. And I actually had a ten

14:34

stop speaking tour.

14:37

That was happening in one

14:39

week

14:40

to college campuses across

14:43

the country. Oh, lord. That

14:45

is a kick in the shorts. I

14:47

had to go out into the world in

14:50

a week. I remember actually

14:52

being in my first airport

14:56

a week later and some person

14:59

was standing close to me and they had googled me

15:01

because they thought it was me. I was wearing like a

15:03

hat. And I could

15:05

see my mug shot on their

15:07

phone.

15:07

This was the first thing that comes up. Yeah.

15:10

I was like, oh, so this is it.

15:12

This is how it's gonna be. Right? Yeah.

15:15

And I really wanted to process and

15:17

proceed with all of that happened,

15:20

with honesty and truth and integrity.

15:23

And I wanted to be as upfront

15:26

and honest about it as possible. And

15:29

so, I don't know,

15:32

how this story necessarily ends, but,

15:35

you know, I've been sober ever since that

15:37

day that night in jail. That's

15:41

incredible.

15:50

So I've spent many mornings

15:53

listening to Robin Roberts,

15:55

but that's still not enough time for me

15:57

to have with Robin. She's just the

15:59

best, which is why I am

16:01

so thankful that she's on

16:03

masterclass. Alongside names

16:06

like Helen Miran and Shonda Rhimes,

16:08

Robin teaches valuable lessons

16:10

in her area of expertise, effective

16:13

and authentic communication. If

16:16

you know Robin, you've heard her say that

16:18

you should make your mess your message.

16:21

And she uses that to start her class before

16:23

diving into other topics. 1st lesson

16:25

that I found, particularly interesting

16:28

was all about public speaking.

16:30

I highly recommend you check it out.

16:33

Get unlimited access to every class,

16:35

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16:37

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16:39

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16:54

Dave, I wanna talk about one

16:57

more hard thing. One more

16:59

hard thing, and then we will stop the hard

17:01

things. Okay. But we cannot

17:04

do a conversation with you about

17:06

love and unrequited love.

17:10

Without talking about the

17:13

major romantic relationship in

17:15

your life, that was an unrequited love.

17:18

Mhmm.

17:18

And how would you define unrequited? It's

17:22

when you

17:24

just desperately love something,

17:28

and it never loves you back. And

17:30

I actually don't think that

17:33

it's love. So, there would be more it

17:35

would be a more complicated answer than that,

17:37

but, like, our cultural definition of

17:40

unrequited love is when you love something

17:43

fully and never loves you

17:44

back. Like drinking is unrequited love.

17:47

Soccer was unrequited love,

17:49

but it was a lot of amazing things. Yeah.

17:51

It's one way love. It's what But

17:53

but which isn't love? It's a relationship that

17:56

you're having

17:58

with someone who is not

18:00

having that relationship back

18:02

Yes. That is sort

18:04

of this relationship. And you

18:06

correct me if I'm wrong that this

18:08

was the

18:10

a great unresolved agonizing

18:15

-- Yeah. -- romance in

18:17

your life, the one we're about to talk about. How

18:19

would you describe this relationship? How

18:21

did it start? Take us back? Real

18:29

softball there.

18:30

Yeah. But doesn't everybody have one love

18:32

where someone someone

18:33

asks them, they just go, oh, absolutely.

18:36

I mine parallels ears a little bit,

18:38

that'd be

18:38

so. Yeah. I mean, I'm I'm happy to go down with

18:40

this shit too. That makes you feel better.

18:43

Well, I think that I've

18:45

had a lot of time to think about this over

18:47

the last almost twenty years.

18:50

So we we met

18:53

about twenty years ago. And

18:56

it was early on in my national team career.

18:59

This person was she was

19:01

just completely unique to the kind

19:03

of person I'd ever met before, adventurous, active,

19:08

seemingly like super connected.

19:12

She was just fucking cool. Mhmm. And

19:15

I aspired to be

19:17

the kind of person that

19:20

somebody like her would love. I

19:22

felt like, oh, this person's gonna

19:24

make me better. You ever met

19:26

somebody like that where you're like, oh, yeah. Like,

19:30

me? Yeah. Oh, that's sweet. So

19:34

we met and we

19:36

fell in love, and I

19:38

should have seen the red flags early

19:41

enough time. But I didn't

19:43

because I was so into the fantasy

19:45

of and the idea of this

19:48

love. And was she straight ish? She

19:50

was straightish. She was straightish. Yeah. She was straightish.

19:52

Would

19:52

that be one of the red flags you thought

19:54

you should've noticed?

19:56

Well, not at all. Not at the time. 1st

19:58

at the time. She was straight with the side of Abby,

20:00

would say. Okay. Okay.

20:03

And she was painfully honest.

20:06

She had this way of being so brutally

20:08

honest that it made me trust

20:09

her. You even met somebody

20:11

like that? Yeah. Well, that's a thing with you.

20:14

You think if people are mean that that

20:16

means they're honest and that that's love.

20:18

Yeah. I don't know. We we were living such

20:20

different lives. And

20:22

I guess 1st of the big red flags early

20:24

on should have been that she was never able

20:27

to, like, actually define the relationship

20:29

with me. Mhmm. I was always trying to

20:32

nail that down in some way. And

20:34

it was, like, this elusive love

20:38

is not definable and

20:40

all this stuff. Mhmm.

20:43

But when we were together, it was amazing and

20:45

I see her for, like, a week here or

20:47

a week there for

20:49

months and then not months.

20:51

We would not see each other. And this is not back in

20:53

the day we're texting and stuff was a

20:56

constant occurrence. You'd have

20:58

to, like, actually call the person. You have

21:00

to pay for, like, Skype minutes. Like, it

21:02

was It was harder to stay alongside

21:04

then. I know. Yeah. And

21:10

this was something that went on for

21:12

a little while, like, a year or two.

21:15

And I think ended,

21:22

specifically ended because she got engaged.

21:25

I went, gosh, when was

21:27

this? I

21:30

decided after we won the gold

21:32

medal on o four that I was gonna go on a solo

21:34

trip. And so I drove

21:37

my jeep across the country. I was gonna

21:39

go to Moab and Zion

21:41

and Bryce Canyon and the Grand Canyon.

21:45

And

21:45

on my drive from Florida,

21:47

I I just, like, took a u-turn and

21:50

went to her house.

21:53

And I'll start my solo

21:55

trip by going to visit someone.

21:57

And if every time you try to take

21:59

your metaphorical solo trip,

22:02

and your car veers, to

22:05

a certain person or substance

22:07

or

22:07

whatever. That might be

22:09

a sign -- Yeah. -- that this is the distraction

22:12

you're using from yourself Yeah. I drove

22:14

through the night. It took me thirty two

22:17

hours to get there.

22:19

Sure.

22:19

A short detour of thirty two hours.

22:21

It is so ridiculous. And so

22:23

I get there and she's surprised

22:26

to see me opens the door and

22:29

won't let me into her apartment, which I thought was, like,

22:31

kind of weird. And so we went and

22:33

sat on the hood of my jeep. And

22:36

then she proceeds to tell me that

22:38

she slept with somebody

22:40

that day,

22:43

and that's why I couldn't come in to

22:45

the

22:46

house. The person

22:48

was there. I don't know if they

22:50

were there.

22:50

Honey, they were there. She

22:53

wouldn't let you in the house for God's sake.

22:55

I actually don't really have Vivid

22:58

memories of that whole

23:00

experience. Mhmm. But I remember feeling

23:02

pretty heartbroken. Yeah. And

23:05

went on my little solo trip by

23:07

myself. And I

23:10

was just so sad. I was

23:12

so sad and so

23:14

confused. A couple

23:16

months later, maybe a year later, I don't know exactly

23:19

the timeline. But I'm at practice,

23:21

national team practice, and one of my friends

23:24

says to me, did you hear so and so

23:26

is engaged? And so and so is

23:28

this person that I've loved? And

23:31

I like, you've never

23:33

you have probably never seen the

23:35

blood drain from a human

23:37

being's face like it did that day. I just

23:40

I shut down. I was like, what?

23:43

How did this happen without me knowing? We

23:45

were still in kind of contact, but not

23:48

like as consistent before because

23:50

the sleeping with somebody else was a little bit

23:52

really hard for me to accept. Well,

23:55

she goes on. She gets married. She

23:58

has kids, the whole thing. And during

24:01

this time, I get into relationships and get out

24:03

of relationships. And every single time I would get

24:05

out of

24:05

relationship, I would call her. And

24:08

there was always still this

24:12

energy -- Mhmm. --

24:14

this I miss

24:16

you. I love you. Thanks.

24:19

From her too. Yeah. This vibe

24:21

that was, like, always

24:22

there.

24:23

You hang in there. She she liked you exactly

24:25

where you were. And for whatever

24:27

reason, the fantasy of this love

24:30

was keeping me there too. You know,

24:32

like, this wasn't just a a

24:34

horrible one side of,

24:36

like, she's a horrible person, and I'm, like, the

24:38

good person here. Like, I was also

24:41

a part of this toxic experience.

24:45

Granted, she was married with children,

24:47

and probably should

24:49

have had the integrity

24:53

to

24:54

say, I'm gonna I can't

24:56

do this anymore because I have this whole other wife.

24:58

Mhmm. But she knew that's what you wanted more than

25:00

anything in the world. So she also knew that

25:02

keeping you hanging there with her

25:05

would allow her to have the thing. Yeah.

25:07

And have you and would

25:09

keep you

25:10

from ever having the thing. Yeah.

25:12

And you would only have this ten percent

25:14

version of her. Yeah. Do

25:16

you think that there's any part

25:18

of this that has to do with growing up

25:20

queer in the time you grew up in? In

25:23

terms of this tragic

25:27

Yeah.

25:27

Like, broke back mountain. This idea

25:29

that queer kids are are taught that, like,

25:32

the since they can't have

25:35

out in in the open love

25:37

that the

25:39

only kind of love that they can have is

25:41

like dark and brooding and incomplete

25:44

and that what we tell ourselves

25:47

about that is that that's better anyway.

25:49

Mhmm. That that's the only real

25:51

love is the mystery. Underneath steering

25:54

his love and so you stay

25:56

there because you don't think you can ever have

25:59

the other thing and you just tell yourself that that's what's

26:01

real.

26:01

Yes. And also PS Sister brokeback

26:03

Mountain was and

26:05

is one of my favorite movies to this

26:07

day because it reminded

26:10

me so much of this

26:13

love. It it made me it,

26:15

like, Every

26:18

I feel like every gay person, at

26:20

least my age, understands that

26:23

movie. On a totally different level.

26:25

And in your

26:26

head, you're like the

26:28

love that that

26:29

that that person has. Like,

26:31

broke back glove, is

26:33

they just feel like they have to do this

26:36

family thing, but their real love is with me.

26:38

Yeah. But you

26:40

actually don't know if that's true. That

26:42

could be true. And in some of the

26:44

stories that is true. And in some of the

26:46

stories,

26:47

those people have their real

26:50

love in

26:51

that

26:51

family or that other relationship they're living

26:53

out, and they're just super

26:56

interest it in this drama and having the

26:58

best of all possible worlds by having

27:00

this undefinable can't

27:03

get me in trouble because I'm not technically doing

27:05

any thing wrong love -- Mhmm. Mhmm.

27:07

-- on the

27:08

side. Yeah. And that's a

27:10

very because that's not real, because

27:12

that's not real. What I have here that's not

27:15

real, but you were very real. Yeah.

27:17

I

27:17

have a question too. Did you call

27:20

when you and

27:22

your ex broke up? Was

27:25

my ex wife? Yes. Your ex wife.

27:28

Was so and so the first person you called?

27:31

Yep. Yeah. And III hadn't

27:33

gotten arrested yet. I hadn't gotten sober yet.

27:35

So I was I I made the

27:37

phone call after a long

27:41

drinking night out. Mhmm. And

27:45

I actually I think

27:47

in my memory, because

27:49

I was pretty intoxicated. I asked

27:52

her to leave her husband and

27:55

to be with me. Yep. Thinking,

27:58

oh, this has to be the thing. This is

28:00

the thing that's gonna fix

28:02

me. This

28:02

is what my problem has been all along.

28:05

So badly wanna make sense of ourselves. Right? This

28:07

is the

28:08

exact same thing. I didn't And Yep.

28:13

Yeah. She said no. Obviously.

28:17

Like she had been saying for fifteen

28:19

years or how

28:20

Wow. Or she was

28:21

saying no, but -- Yeah.

28:23

-- but I love you and I miss. So

28:25

I don't know how to I guess

28:27

the way that it kinda ends is when I

28:29

get sober with some

28:32

like real hopeful

28:35

therapy was able to call

28:37

her and tell her

28:41

all of the

28:43

way the years of

28:45

being a hang

28:47

being what is it called? Like, being the strung

28:49

along.

28:50

Strung along. The

28:52

side piece We tell that. Well, I mean, there

28:54

was nothing there was nothing physical that ever happened.

28:57

Well, after she got married, we never there was

28:59

no physical it was just this

29:02

emotional thing that

29:04

that I think that I realized maybe I was

29:06

experiencing on my own. Mm-mm. And

29:09

And for the first time as a sober

29:11

person, I got the courage

29:13

to call her and say, this

29:16

is bullshit. And the

29:18

fact that you have

29:21

strung me along for this long has

29:25

prevented me from living a full life,

29:27

and probably in many ways prevented me

29:29

from having a real relationship. Yeah.

29:35

I told her it was unfair, and

29:38

she agreed. She agreed

29:40

with everything that I said. And was

29:46

kind and I

29:49

told her that I never ever

29:51

wanted to talk to her Glennon

29:53

not out of, like, meanness

29:57

or self

29:59

protection. Mhmm. But, like,

30:01

I don't want people like that in my life.

30:03

I

30:03

don't want people like that that say

30:05

one thing and do another. I

30:08

don't want somebody that says that they love

30:10

me. But won't

30:13

ever do anything to prove it. Because

30:16

that was a whole relationship that was prove

30:18

proveably making me believe

30:20

that I was unlovable over and over

30:22

and over and over

30:23

again.

30:23

You weren't worth choosing. Yeah. And

30:26

I know that that gainess and

30:28

sexuality played a little bit of

30:30

a role in this whole thing, but

30:33

I'm good enough.

30:35

To be chosen. You

30:38

know? And I had to actually say those

30:40

words. I had to actually

30:42

be intentional and say the things

30:45

that I really meant, and I

30:47

really did love her. And

30:50

in some ways, this fantasy of the

30:52

love kept me company for a lot of years

30:54

Yeah. It was a source of all a lot of heartbreak.

30:56

It was also the source of a lot of joy.

30:59

Mhmm. Because having

31:01

those in love feelings is wonderful

31:03

at times, but

31:05

I needed to stop it. I needed

31:08

to quit and, you

31:10

know, and good old broke back

31:12

mountain

31:13

fashion. It was hard to quit her,

31:15

but I finally did.

31:19

Did she put up any resistance?

31:22

Like, did she try to rationalize with you? Like,

31:24

oh, but we can still keep in

31:25

touch? Or No. No. She got She

31:27

understood she knew what was needed.

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term supply. So

32:10

where we are in your story right now? Just

32:13

this one lens we're looking at it through.

32:16

You have now Lost

32:19

soccer, ended soccer?

32:21

Yeah. Because I retired, soccer ended,

32:24

and drinking really

32:26

ramped up. So soccer

32:28

is over. Your

32:30

marriage is over. Mhmm.

32:33

And the drinking is over. Yeah.

32:36

This is where we are right now. Yeah. Many

32:38

of your unrequited loves are

32:40

over. Can you talk to us

32:43

about the night at the Palmer

32:46

House? It's a

32:48

seemingly normal event I have to

32:50

go do I'm just about to publish

32:53

forward the memoir that I

32:55

wrote soon after I retired, and

32:57

I'm traveling with a

32:59

manager kind of person and they

33:01

hand me the book of

33:05

information of the other authors who are gonna be there,

33:07

who are also trying to to promote their

33:10

books for their upcoming releases.

33:12

And so I scan through the authors and I'm like,

33:14

nuh-uh-uh-uh-uh-uh-uh-uh-uh. And then I see love

33:18

warrior on there. And I read the

33:20

little bio that Glennon had,

33:23

and it had something in there like

33:25

about being sober. I

33:27

was newly sober,

33:30

and I remember being like, oh,

33:33

that's a sober

33:34

person. I've

33:35

gotten to those people, but I've never gotten at once.

33:38

Yeah. I'm gonna talk to that person because

33:41

the truth is, I really

33:43

swear to you. Like, I had never

33:45

really met a

33:47

sober person. I didn't know a single sober

33:49

person. I had created a whole

33:51

life around me that it was just people who party

33:54

to support my addiction,

33:56

my habit. Mhmm. So we walk

33:58

in and we're,

34:00

like, running a little late, which is, like, my

34:02

biggest pet peeve and -- Mhmm. -- I had

34:05

said I don't wanna have dinner. And I I guess

34:07

all the authors who we were all gonna be

34:09

up on the stage, giving little talks

34:11

about our books, to

34:13

the librarians of the world. We love

34:15

you librarians. So I walk into this back

34:17

room backstage and all the authors

34:20

are all in there eating.

34:22

And I'm late. I didn't know that this was like

34:24

a private backstage event before

34:26

the event

34:27

starts. Is

34:27

a table with George Saunders? Kelly McMillan,

34:30

Maria Simple. I didn't know any of those

34:32

people. I

34:35

also don't know any of those people. Yeah.

34:37

All I cared about was meeting the sober

34:39

person there. And so when I walk in

34:42

and somebody stands up

34:45

in the room, that was me.

34:48

I recognize that it's the

34:50

person that I actually am

34:52

there to hopefully talk to

34:54

at some

34:55

point. So I walk around,

34:57

we hug, and then I sit down

34:59

in my chair.

35:01

And the way that we were seated, she

35:03

was away from me and kind of at a weird angle.

35:06

So she was in, like, the peripheral of my vision,

35:08

not in my clear path. And so I

35:10

kept talking to this one author

35:13

and he seemed kind enough, but I kept looking

35:15

over to her, like,

35:17

more interested in wanting to know what they're

35:19

talking about over there. With her seatmate

35:22

than I was interested in talking to

35:24

my seatmate. So then the

35:26

dinner ends and all the

35:28

authors, like, wanna take a picture together.

35:31

We walk outside and Glennon like

35:33

nowhere to be found. I'm like, where is she?

35:35

You know, this is so she's the reason why I wanna

35:37

take a picture. But now that you know me so

35:39

long, you would know where I was now.

35:42

Right? You were in the bathroom. Hiding

35:44

about them as many times as possible and

35:46

just hide their first ninety minutes. Because it won't

35:48

seem

35:48

weird. Yeah. You were in the bathroom. And then

35:51

you came back and

35:53

we all took a picture. So when we are

35:55

walking to the stage, I finally get

35:57

the seconds that I'm, like, hoping to talk

35:59

to you about because I had yet

36:01

to figure out what I was gonna include in

36:04

the memoir forward. And so I

36:06

really wanted your advice about

36:08

I just got the DUI. I knew I could

36:10

talk to you about it because you're sober. And

36:13

you just said some things. Like, you touched

36:15

my arm. It was just like electricity. I

36:17

was

36:17

like, oh, like a shock. Something

36:19

happened to my system. And I

36:21

kinda

36:21

didn't pay any real attention to 1st. then when we

36:23

sat on the the day as we were seated

36:25

next to each other, and I was so

36:28

glad to be seated next next to you. I

36:30

don't know if you remember what we were talking

36:32

about on that walk, which

36:34

is that whoever wanted you to write that

36:36

book. Like

36:39

the shiny version

36:41

of you.

36:41

Yeah. Just when you talk about your two

36:43

halves, yes.

36:45

Everybody wanted you to write it just

36:47

as your shiny soccer player. Yourself.

36:50

Yes. They did not want you to

36:52

include any of what you call your shadow

36:54

side. Mhmm. It was really just all the real stuff

36:56

-- Yeah. -- in the book because

37:00

they

37:00

thought

37:00

that would tarnish your Captain America

37:02

-- Yeah. -- reputation. Yeah.

37:04

You said to me It

37:07

was like you thought it was like you were revealing

37:09

the deepest darkest secret, but the first thing you said

37:11

to me was you probably know what's going

37:14

on. Because you just got in the DUI.

37:16

And I was, like, about

37:19

what? And you were, like, well, it's

37:21

all over ESPN. And I was, like, that

37:23

doesn't help me. And

37:26

and you said I I just

37:28

got a DUI. And you

37:30

said you wanted you were thinking about including

37:32

all of your struggles inside your

37:34

memoir. Mhmm. But you

37:36

were afraid that people wouldn't like

37:38

you anymore or something. Yeah.

37:41

I mean, I think I was afraid of tarnishing

37:43

the soccer Abby

37:45

legacy, the soccer star legacy. And

37:47

you when you touch me, you said sweetheart. Oh,

37:49

sweetheart. We in the

37:52

real world, like real

37:54

people. And it was just

37:56

like this really simple thing that

38:00

think like my intuition and my sober,

38:02

my newly sober self was like,

38:04

feeling. And when you said

38:06

that, I was like, yes. It was an

38:08

invitation to integration. It was

38:10

an invitation to say to you

38:12

You don't have to be these two things

38:14

anymore. That's right. We want

38:16

both of you. In fact, what the hell

38:18

is it memoir? If not, all

38:20

the stuff. It was an invitation from

38:22

the soccer world into the real world where you'd

38:24

get to be your whole

38:25

self. That's right. That's interesting.

38:28

I've never thought of it that way. Me neither. Till

38:30

now. You gave me an opportunity to

38:32

integrate my two selves in

38:36

that second. And

38:38

then you went up and talked about your

38:42

book that you were publishing, and I

38:44

was so excited

38:45

first of all, you like made me laugh and cry

38:47

and all the things.

38:49

And there was just like this unmistakable

38:53

unquestionable energy

38:55

that was happening between us. Mhmm.

38:58

But felt like for the first time somebody

39:00

was seeing the whole of me.

39:02

Mhmm. And not wanting

39:05

to discard what I would

39:07

have called then, the shadow side,

39:09

like the bad Abby. Good Abby.

39:11

Bad Abby.

39:12

You were like, no. Like, that's

39:15

the good stuff. You've got this

39:17

all backwards. And

39:22

And so, yeah, I went back to my room that

39:24

night and I read love

39:26

warrior until one or two in the

39:28

morning. I

39:30

was a little disappointed with the way

39:32

that it ended. So is I babe?

39:34

So is I That puts

39:36

us completely full circle back

39:39

at the beginning of the

39:41

conversation we had in the last episode because

39:44

when we were talking about how Dr. Franco

39:46

says that if you're holding something back,

39:48

you can't accept love because

39:50

you don't trust it. And I wonder

39:54

if the Palmer House was

39:56

it it was the

39:59

opposite of that moment because there

40:01

wasn't anything you could do to hold back

40:03

at that point or keep hitting. Like, it was

40:05

all over ESPN. It was all over the

40:07

ticker. And since

40:11

it was all out there, if

40:15

someone were to love you in that

40:17

space, then that

40:20

would mean that you could trust

40:22

it. Whereas before

40:24

when you had shiny

40:27

Abby at the front and shadow

40:30

Abby, you would never be able to really accept

40:32

and trust love because you'd

40:34

be thinking,

40:35

yeah, but you don't know about Shadow Abby. That's right.

40:37

I think that's why I have so much

40:41

feeling for your

40:43

first wife. You're amazing

40:46

at talking about what a great

40:49

love we have and me

40:51

and why you love me so much. And

40:55

we do have an incredible

40:57

love story, an incredible love. But

41:00

what was different then?

41:04

Was not just that me was

41:06

not just that I was a new person. It

41:09

was that for the first time you were

41:11

fully and completely present.

41:15

Like, you were fully available.

41:19

Mhmm. The drinking was

41:20

gone, the soccer was it was just like

41:22

all of you there, all of the

41:24

unrequited love.

41:27

Was also because you

41:29

weren't there fully to love. Yep. And

41:32

I know there was a moment where

41:34

your ex wife asked

41:37

if you were having a conversation with her

41:39

and you explained that you

41:41

were in love and all the things and she said,

41:44

have you stayed sober? Yeah.

41:47

And you said yes, and she bursts out crying.

41:49

And I just have such

41:51

feeling. I know it was messy. I know there's

41:54

a lot there, but I do have this like big

41:56

love for her because I feel like she

41:59

knew in that moment that you were gonna be

42:01

available in the next phase of your life

42:03

in a way that you weren't available in the

42:05

the last

42:05

one. I feel like everybody has that in their

42:07

life. The things that went wrong and then you know

42:09

the person's gonna be better for the next thing,

42:11

but, like, you're the one who did -- Yeah.

42:14

-- struggling. Yeah. And I don't have

42:16

any tender feelings for the one that left you

42:18

hanging on all the time. I'm just gonna say that, but

42:20

I feel like you are who

42:22

you have always wanted

42:25

to be the way that you love.

42:30

It's like watching someone

42:32

who is, like, the greatest pain in the world.

42:35

And since they're painting you, everyone's

42:39

looking at the painting thinking she's amazing.

42:42

Look at her, but

42:45

the person sitting for the painting only

42:48

looks that good because the painter

42:51

is so freaking amazing at painting.

42:54

That's how you love me. And

42:58

I feel

43:00

so grateful that I get to be the

43:02

one who was loved by

43:03

you. Because

43:05

you were right all the time. Your whole life,

43:07

you were right. You were meant to

43:10

love big and love huge and

43:12

love with all of your being

43:15

and what you needed was somebody who would

43:17

be fully present in there and be

43:19

in it with you --

43:20

Yeah. -- and be a hundred percent

43:22

with you. And I get to be that. Yes.

43:24

And I think for a lot of

43:26

my life, I just thought that there was gonna be some

43:28

other things like other love that

43:30

was going to fix me -- Mhmm. -- and

43:33

make me feel lovable. And

43:36

I think that what I've learned from our

43:38

relationship and

43:40

the work we've done is the

43:45

only source of working

43:49

through that heartache or that,

43:51

like, emo angst.

43:54

don't know what it is that, like, this seeking

43:57

for more I had to figure out how to

43:59

love myself. And

44:01

we had a very amazing intense

44:05

love story, but we've

44:07

also created a lot of space a

44:10

lot of safe space for each other

44:12

to be able to learn how to love ourselves

44:15

--

44:15

Mhmm. -- really deeply.

44:18

Because in the end, I think that that is what

44:20

I've been searching for.

44:23

You've been, like, this beautiful

44:26

space giver and the

44:29

safety net that almost

44:33

like I needed somebody strong enough and

44:35

safe enough and that would

44:37

love me so hard and so well

44:40

that I could fake myself into believing that

44:42

it was possible for me to do it myself.

44:45

You gave me this, like, runway

44:48

of loveability.

44:50

I keep looking at you and I'm like,

44:52

Okay. Maybe it is possible. Maybe I am actually

44:54

lovable. She's pretty smart. I think she could

44:56

be on to something.

45:07

Hey, guys. This is Kaiden Thompson. I

45:09

have a problem with you. Yes, you.

45:11

None of y'all told me that auto trader

45:13

has millions of new and used cars

45:15

that I can shop from home. I

45:17

thought we were friends. I put smiles

45:19

on your face, but I'm not smiling. No

45:22

one told me that with AutoTrader, a dealer

45:24

can deliver cars to my home or

45:26

that I could shop by price on AutoTrader. No

45:29

one considered this friendship that

45:31

you just learned we had officially over.

45:34

Finally, it's easy. Auto

45:36

trader.

45:42

Abby, you mentioned in the first

45:46

episode how you were at FIFA,

45:48

and that's the moment that you got the

45:50

best player of the world

45:53

award. And

45:56

the love didn't sink

45:58

into you and you realized, well,

46:02

if if I can't feel the love

46:04

after this, then soccer is

46:07

never gonna be able to fill that void.

46:09

Have you ever had a moment

46:13

where you have received

46:16

love in the moment and you could feel

46:18

it immediately, like, click

46:21

that sinks in. I get that.

46:25

This takes Yep. Well,

46:28

it happened a couple of months ago. An

46:31

unsuspecting Christmas

46:34

morning the kids are going around

46:36

their unwrapping their gifts and all

46:38

of a sudden, got in. It's like, Abby,

46:40

it's your turn. And I was like,

46:43

adults go later in the morning. You know

46:45

what's happening? Mhmm. So I'm opening

46:47

up this present and it's

46:49

this letter from lawyer

46:52

that is essentially Glennon

46:56

and has started the process with

46:59

consent from Craig that

47:03

the kids want me to adopt them

47:05

as their parent legally.

47:13

And there's, like, a lot of mixed feelings in

47:15

that because, you

47:17

know, we've talked before that, like, there

47:20

is a grief that I will live out

47:22

with the rest of my life for not biologically

47:25

caring a child of my own, but that

47:28

gets completely overshadowed

47:30

with, like, the love and the

47:33

joy of parenting these

47:35

three children that Glennon

47:38

and Craig brought into the world. And

47:43

I guess it's hard to explain for like a step

47:45

parent. Who might not

47:47

have like biological connection to their

47:50

sept kids or bonus kids like we call

47:53

it, but I

47:55

don't know. It was like one of those moments. It

47:59

was like 1st

48:02

of those moments in life that No

48:06

offense, honey, but it's one thing to have

48:09

your your romantic partner show

48:13

you, tell you, marry you,

48:15

and make you believe

48:17

that you are lovable. And

48:20

it's like a whole another

48:22

level of proof that

48:25

I am a lovable person when

48:29

these three children fourteen,

48:33

sixteen, and nineteen at the time,

48:37

and their father and Craig You

48:40

know, I'm like, it's it's

48:42

essentially, like, the most crying I've

48:44

ever like, the hardest crying, like, the

48:46

whale cry.

48:50

Like, there's a similar cry when

48:52

I first got sober,

48:54

like, I

48:58

don't know how to describe it well

49:00

enough. It's just If

49:07

it makes sense, there's, like, brief moments in

49:09

a person's life where all of your heartache

49:11

makes sense. Like

49:14

every single heartbreak and

49:18

issue that I had was

49:20

because I didn't know that

49:24

I would be chosen. I

49:29

first had to figure out how to love myself well

49:32

enough and I had to find

49:34

a love. But, like,

49:37

the kids don't have to do that. Our

49:40

life would have been would have gone forward

49:42

with no problems. And

49:46

they want that. They'd like

49:49

they want they want me

49:52

in a person way, in a parent

49:54

way. Mhmm.

49:57

And so that happened And so we're

49:59

in the process right now of

50:03

getting me added and not taking away

50:06

any printal rights of Craig

50:08

Glennon, but getting a third parent added

50:10

to our kids birth certificates.

50:15

And it was just

50:20

Obviously, it means a lot to me. It's just

50:25

I

50:25

don't know how I just don't

50:27

know how, however, thank you all. And

50:32

I know that that's not how love works. It's just I

50:37

I told Glennon She better

50:39

not leave me because now I'm I'll take the kids.

50:43

The kids said the kids said

50:46

three Christmases.

50:50

I don't think it's for you

50:52

to think. I think

50:54

that was their way of thinking you. Mhmm.

50:58

I

50:58

just

51:01

so much of my life has has

51:04

felt Like, there

51:06

was AAA

51:09

thread of sorrow or

51:12

shadow or darkness. And

51:21

that's not true. Like,

51:25

it was all necessary and

51:30

part of my process and I

51:35

needed every bit of it to

51:38

feel that moment of,

51:41

like, love.

51:52

Wow. Alright.

51:54

Pod Squad, here's what we've decided to do.

51:56

We can't just break that news of the

51:59

Christmas adoption moment without

52:02

explaining it more. So tomorrow, we're gonna

52:04

give you a bonus episode where

52:06

we talk about how the adapt has

52:09

come together in that moment in our family

52:11

when we told AbbVie and what happened. And

52:14

all the implications of it for our family

52:16

and for other families because it's turned

52:18

into kind of a big deal

52:21

and we wanna share it with

52:22

you. So come back tomorrow for a short episode

52:24

where we give you the dates on the adoption.

52:27

We'll see you then. If

52:32

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52:34

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52:36

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