0:00

You're listening to TIP. Hey everyone,

0:03

welcome to this Wednesday's release of the

0:05

Bitcoin Fundamentals podcast. This

0:07

episode is brought to you by River, the

0:09

place that I personally go to securely invest

0:12

in Bitcoin with confidence and with zero fees.

0:15

On today's show, we have Mr. Jim Kreider,

0:17

who's a traditional money manager and fellow Bitcoiner

0:19

to talk to us about all things that

0:21

are currently changing in the industry. As

0:24

many have seen, the traditional financial world is

0:26

starting to come to grips with the power

0:28

of Bitcoin and what it might mean from

0:30

a portfolio sizing and custody standpoint. As

0:33

you'll see in the interview, Jim is such a

0:35

clear and practical thinker and it's such a pleasure

0:37

to hear from him. This is

0:39

definitely an interview that you'll want to share with people

0:41

that are maybe just figuring out Bitcoin for the first

0:43

time. And without further delay,

0:46

here's my chat with the thoughtful Mr.

0:48

Jim Kreider. Celebrating

0:53

10 years, you are

0:55

listening to Bitcoin Fundamentals by the

0:57

Investors Podcast Network. Now

0:59

for your host, Preston Pish. Hey

1:11

everyone, welcome to the show. I'm here

1:13

with Jim Kreider and a good friend

1:15

and somebody that I've had the opportunity

1:17

to get to know a lot better

1:19

here in the past year. I'm

1:22

thrilled to have this conversation with you

1:25

and just let's jump into it.

1:27

What do you think? Let's

1:29

do it, Preston McSidie. I have

1:31

listened to you and Stig for

1:33

eight, nine years. Wow. You

1:36

were early. Yeah. First podcast

1:38

ever found. It's getting a

1:40

little scary to me that we're approaching this decade

1:42

mark, to be quite honest with you, Jim. It's

1:44

a little scary to think we've been doing it

1:46

that long, but because it feels like we just

1:48

kind of started doing this. But anyway,

1:50

I want to start off

1:53

with a quote that you had on

1:55

Twitter because I think this kind

1:57

of is something that I deeply.

2:00

agree with, empathize with, I don't even know if it's

2:02

the right word. You said, I'm

2:04

playing chess while others are playing checkers. What

2:07

if the game is checkers? The game

2:09

is checkers and you're playing chess. You'll

2:11

lose. It's not about ego,

2:13

it's about understanding the game. I

2:15

play checkers and buy. I

2:18

freaking love this quote. So what

2:20

are you getting at here, Jim?

2:23

I feel like people tend to

2:26

overcomplicate things. Amen. From

2:28

a financialization point of view of,

2:30

oh, we have to go and

2:33

create all these new types of

2:35

assets and products. What

2:38

about this? What about that? It's like, look,

2:40

what are we trying to accomplish? That's

2:43

what Bitcoin does. Bitcoin simplifies

2:45

money. This

2:48

whole thing of, I think it's a lot of

2:50

it's ego driven. This whole, I'm playing chess while

2:52

you're playing checkers. It's like, dude, that's great, but

2:54

you could be way off because you're trying to

2:56

put your ego first. Just buy Bitcoin and be

2:58

done with it. That's it. It's

3:01

not very difficult. It's funny, owning

3:03

Bitcoin, I'm very vocal on this. I

3:06

do this for a living. I talk to people about Bitcoin in

3:08

a lot of senses. I go three

3:10

years at a time looking like a moron,

3:12

but then for a year,

3:14

every few years, I look like

3:16

I'm unjustifiably smart. It's really

3:18

not because I'm smart. It's just simple. I'm

3:21

playing checkers. I buy Bitcoin. Yeah,

3:24

but I mean, there's an

3:26

enormous amount of intellectual rigor

3:28

that has brought you to

3:30

the point that you

3:32

realize the game is checkers

3:35

and not this complicated 4D

3:37

chessboard. And

3:40

I think you have to talk to the

3:43

deep, deep rigor that you

3:45

had to put into understanding what is

3:47

the game? What is my environmental factors

3:49

that I'm dealing with to

3:52

deduce and compress

3:55

what appears to be this super complex thing

3:57

down to something that's way simpler? So like

3:59

walk. us through that. If

4:02

you know something really well, you should be able

4:04

to articulate it simply. So like

4:07

my kids, my oldest

4:09

is six. So my oldest,

4:11

for a six-year-old, has a really good

4:13

understanding of how money works, what inflation

4:15

is, how Bitcoin works, why Bitcoin's superior

4:18

to other currencies. He and my father-in-law,

4:20

his grandpa play a game where my

4:23

father-in-law, they have a big globe and

4:25

Atticus, my six-year-old, has

4:28

to identify a country and

4:30

tell them about it. And

4:32

then if he gets it correct, grandpa will give

4:34

him a piece of money from that country.

4:37

And because of this, Atticus has now

4:39

accumulated lots of different currencies. Some of

4:42

them are still strong. Some have been

4:44

massively devalued. I have my $50 trillion

4:46

bill from Zimbabwe. He knows about these

4:48

things. And that's... You

4:50

don't have the 100? You have a 50? Yeah,

4:53

man, it's hard to find

4:55

the hundreds now. Ironically, they've gone up in

4:57

value because they're collector's items now. Oh, interesting.

4:59

I would love to find a hundred. I

5:02

have one. I have one in... I think

5:04

it's in this book over here. Keep talking. I'm

5:06

gonna go see if I can find it in this book because I'm pretty

5:08

sure it's a bookmark in this book. Go

5:10

ahead. Nice. You lucky

5:13

dog. Yeah, that's explaining to him

5:15

how money works and how different

5:17

currencies and debasement and why Bitcoin.

5:20

If I did not understand this well, I could

5:22

not articulate in a way that is simple enough

5:24

for him to understand. And I think

5:26

that's what you see a lot. So I work

5:28

in financial planning. I own a financial planning company and

5:30

I talk to financial planners a lot. And

5:33

what I've come to realize over the years is

5:36

there's a lot of financial planners who are

5:38

really smart and great at managing money. The

5:41

problem is they've never stopped to ask,

5:43

what is money? And that

5:46

seems like such a foolish, stupid question,

5:49

unnecessary question to ask. You know, it's like

5:51

a fish asking, what is water? The

5:53

problem is though, if your fish has been swimming in

5:55

polluted water for a prolonged period of time, you never

5:57

stop to ask, what is actually water? water

6:00

anyways, you won't think to ask, is

6:02

the ecosystem I'm in actually designed to

6:04

provide for me what I need to

6:07

actually thrive and flourish? If

6:09

you're used to swimming in sludge, that sort of

6:11

water, you'll be okay with that. Instead of asking

6:13

like, what is this? What is water? Then you'll

6:15

recognize, wow, this is so different than the actual

6:18

thing I'm supposed to be in. And you'll look

6:20

for that exit so you can go to be

6:22

in that place you need to be. If

6:24

we don't ask, what is money? Arriving

6:27

at Bitcoin doesn't make sense. You're

6:30

trying to answer a question that

6:32

was never asked. And that's why

6:34

people look at Bitcoin as being foolish. So it's

6:36

so simple. It's just starting at

6:38

those first principles, those base

6:41

questions. What is money? What is

6:43

this? Why are we doing this? And

6:45

it logically arrives at, in my

6:47

opinion, the most logical conclusion. I

6:50

totally agree. By the way, it was not in the book.

6:56

Anyway, I'll have to sit over there. When

6:58

you're talking about this, do you think this

7:01

is the reason why we see so many

7:03

speculators? Is because at the

7:05

core, they don't understand the core problem

7:07

that's even being solved for? For

7:10

sure. Like I have a buddy, I've been trying to get

7:12

him to buy Bitcoin for several years. And

7:14

he finally started buying some, but

7:16

I ran into him a couple, about a week

7:18

ago. And he's like,

7:21

hey, man, you started buying yet? He's like, yeah, I've

7:23

realized this is a great thing to trade. It's

7:26

like, okay, you bought some, but you don't understand

7:28

why you've bought it yet. And

7:30

yeah, he's trying to play chess when the game

7:32

is checkers, just buy Bitcoin. But

7:35

he's trying to trade it and speculate with it and treat

7:37

it like some sort of stock that

7:39

you're going to be going back and forth in.

7:42

Yeah, it's an over complication that's completely unnecessary.

7:44

Like I'm a huge fan, you know, on

7:46

like the Wizard of Oz, they

7:48

think that the wizard, this

7:51

great man has it all together. But

7:53

then they pulled the curtain comes off back on

7:56

accident and it's revealed like he's a simple guy.

7:58

He's just an old man. that's

8:00

putting on this facade. And that's where

8:03

I've come to realize most of the people

8:05

that TradFi thinks

8:07

is this great wizard with

8:10

a big booming voice is really just a

8:12

couple old dudes calling the shots. And

8:15

even people like me, a lot of people think that, oh, this is

8:17

what he does for a living. He must be super smart. Like, look,

8:20

I'm a normal guy. I'm

8:22

willing and vocal on what

8:24

I know and what I don't know. And

8:26

until you go there admitting these are

8:28

things that I don't understand, like, I

8:31

think we all recognize the first step

8:33

to buying Bitcoin is admitting, how is

8:35

wrong about Bitcoin the first time I

8:37

encountered it? So you have to come to

8:39

that place of like, I'm not

8:41

the great and mighty wizard. I am

8:43

just a guy that's been behind a

8:47

little curtain this whole time. Yeah,

8:49

you have to admit that you're wrong. I think we're all we've all been there.

8:52

I want to come back to that point because I

8:55

think it's a really important point. Before we go there,

8:57

I just want to talk about

8:59

like speculators. And I think another

9:01

thing that's really missed when talking about

9:03

these people that are trying to time

9:05

the market and they're looking at patterns

9:07

in the price action and these types

9:09

of activities. I think a

9:11

lot of them just don't have a

9:13

deep appreciation for the killer whales that

9:16

are out there in the market. And

9:18

that can be A, setting up a

9:20

chart pattern to suck people in as

9:22

if it's a upside head and shoulders

9:25

or a head and shoulders pattern or

9:27

this pattern or that pattern. And

9:29

because they are controlling so much

9:31

market share and maybe there's no

9:33

other competitor out there, they're

9:36

putting on trades as if this pattern

9:38

is going to play out only to

9:40

get totally rug pulled by some massive

9:42

whale. Then you compound it

9:44

with the idea that maybe there's a second

9:46

whale in the water that's

9:48

letting this person think they're setting up some

9:50

pattern only to step in and smack the

9:53

other whale in the face. And meanwhile,

9:55

there's somebody there with call it a hundred

9:57

thousand bucks thinking that they're a player. And

10:00

they're just getting whipped, just

10:03

absolutely obliterated in the market

10:05

because they're drawing lines and

10:09

doing these things that they think are

10:11

swoopdy but they're actually just demonstrating how

10:13

little they know when the whole game

10:15

that's being played is a game of

10:18

weight. How many SATs are you

10:20

able to stick on the scale over 5, 10

10:24

years that is demonstrating

10:26

true knowledge and true depth of

10:28

the problem that's being solved and

10:31

oh my God, you just want

10:33

to bang your forehead against the wall when

10:36

you see it. And you know,

10:38

Sailor talks about this sometimes and

10:40

there's a guy who literally whips

10:42

on around billions in trading

10:46

volume per week sometimes

10:49

and he's telling you

10:51

he's not trying to trade this or trying

10:53

to speculate this. He's just stepping into the

10:56

market and just trying to gobble up as

10:58

many satoshis as he can. So

11:00

kind of curious to hear your thoughts on some of that. You

11:03

just never, you don't know. I'm not smart enough

11:05

and it's not like a lot of this is

11:08

not even a question of smarts. Yeah. It's

11:10

you don't have the information out there like

11:12

what shark or whale is in the water

11:14

below you that you can't see. I

11:17

had someone reach out a few

11:19

weeks ago when Bitcoin went to like 72 or

11:21

whatever for its first time like,

11:23

hey, should we go ahead and sell some assuming

11:26

it's going to drop? Like, no, let's

11:28

hang in there. And it did drop. Yeah. It

11:30

was like, hey, Jim, like, is it going to go

11:33

down more and maybe we should sell some to buy again

11:35

later? It was like, no, like stop. And

11:37

there's a lot of ways to help address this. Another

11:39

buddy of mine reached out and asked like it

11:41

was when it was back down to 62 and he

11:44

asked if we should wait for it to get to the 50s. I

11:46

was like, dude, if I had X amount of dollars right now, I'll

11:48

just buy it right now. I have no clue what's going to happen.

11:50

And sure enough, that was a few days ago and it popped right

11:52

back up to where it's at now. Like I

11:55

have no clue what's going to happen here. The thing is like,

11:57

you know, if you're buying right now between 62 and 70. It's

12:00

like I have friends who bought a bunch of Bitcoin at like

12:04

400 to 700 that point 400 to 700 was a that's a 75% increase That's

12:10

huge. But now we look back. It's like dude, you

12:12

just bought a lot of Bitcoin super early Who really

12:14

cares and I have to remind you know people of

12:16

that of the difference between 62 and 72 seems like

12:18

a lot But

12:21

you never know what could happen to cause it to go from

12:23

72 to 92 or 72 to 42 I

12:27

have no clue but one day you

12:29

look back and say I'm glad I

12:31

bought early those people who

12:33

bought between one and three cents and fifty

12:36

to a hundred and 4000

12:38

to 6000 it'll be similar with 50,000

12:41

to 70,000 trying to

12:43

speculate and time this is is absolutely

12:45

foolish And again, I think that's a lot of hubris that

12:47

tries to come in and say that you're you're gonna be

12:49

able to do that To time it and

12:52

I'm not gonna work out. Well, maybe it will. Yeah,

12:54

that's like you mentioned with sailor It's recognizing

12:56

look this is an accumulation game not a

12:59

trading game To your

13:01

point that you made earlier what you were

13:03

really talking about ego and you're talking

13:05

about You know a person who

13:07

thinks that they have more information than they do

13:09

or they just think that they have to do

13:11

going back To your checkers example. They think they

13:13

have to do these miraculous gymnastics

13:15

like fantastic things in order

13:17

to outperform and It's

13:20

just way simpler than that. I guess and That's

13:23

very difficult to overcome So like what

13:25

do you tell like what advice can

13:27

you give somebody to? Develop

13:30

an appreciation for that or to believe you

13:32

because I think you can even tell people

13:34

this in there and they're still saying Yeah,

13:36

but I think I can Better

13:39

timing here or whatever. So how do you

13:41

how do you broach that subject with somebody?

13:43

I Like to think I'm

13:45

a pretty good orange killer like again

13:48

in my company like this all of our

13:50

clients had exposure to Bitcoin and 90

13:52

plus percent of them

13:54

came to us as normal people looking for

13:57

a normal financial planner. I'd be told about

13:59

the base switch when they got me. And

14:03

in order to have them

14:05

go from looking for a dude in a

14:08

suit who's going to help them just land

14:10

in a 60-40 portfolio to where we're at

14:12

now requires education. And

14:15

that's we start off, I don't lead with

14:17

Bitcoin. I've taken a lot of flack from

14:19

people on Twitter saying that like my financial

14:21

planning website does not mention Bitcoin on it.

14:23

Like I came to reach these people who

14:26

need rescuing, not the people who already understand

14:28

this website. So I'm not going to

14:30

advertise that otherwise I'd scare them off. I

14:32

wait until we've provided immense value in other areas, built

14:34

a plan, talked through tax planning, show that I'm not

14:36

a moron. That way when I bring this up, there's

14:38

actually at least some level and degree of trust. And

14:41

once we go there, I believe you

14:43

actually reviewed this book eight

14:45

years ago. It was Chris Voss, Never Split

14:47

the Difference. It's a

14:50

book on negotiation. And

14:52

I take some of those tactics. So like a tactic

14:54

that I bring up with clients is, hey, you're going

14:56

to think I'm absolutely nuts. But

14:59

I and our clients own Bitcoin. So

15:02

you start off with that is identifying, hey,

15:04

what I'm about to say is going to

15:06

sound crazy. If you don't acknowledge

15:08

that, they're going to sit there and think like,

15:10

this guy's crazy. But if you admit you're going

15:12

to think that I'm crazy when I say this,

15:14

you're disarming them already. Because at least you recognize

15:17

you're a little bit nuts. And

15:19

then before you go into telling like how Bitcoin

15:21

works, you have to go into, tell me what

15:23

you know or you have heard about this thing.

15:26

Because again, if you're sitting there and getting the best

15:28

argument, but in the back of their head, they're thinking

15:30

it's used for drugs, it boils the

15:33

oceans, it's Beanie Babies, they will not

15:35

hear anything you have to say, they're going to

15:37

be waiting to bring that thing out to shut

15:39

down all of what you've said. So you have

15:41

to disarm them by allowing to get their baggage

15:43

on the table. It also gives you a place

15:45

to start off that you're not talking way underneath

15:47

or over them. They're just starting off, okay, where are

15:49

you with this? And then we go back

15:52

and we go through a history of what

15:54

is money and what are stores of value. We

15:56

marched through that like way back to the classic

15:59

Bitcoin. stuff, rhinestones and and Rome. And

16:01

then we go through like different forms

16:04

of money and how money's been debased

16:06

over time. We arrive at post-World

16:09

War I Germany. We talk through

16:11

gold confiscation. We talk through Bretton

16:13

Woods. And then that leads

16:15

us to Bitcoin. And then I

16:17

go into Bitcoin itself and how it's not this thing

16:20

that was created 10 years ago by some tech bro

16:22

in his basement so he can buy a Lambo. Like

16:24

this is a thing that's super smart people, way smarter

16:26

than I am. I've been trying to work on for

16:29

several decades. And so we

16:31

go to this history. So it's again leading

16:33

to the proper question. So when we present

16:35

the answer as I think it's Bitcoin, we

16:37

know what question was asked. That

16:40

allows us to go why Bitcoin versus

16:43

everything else. And those everything else could be US dollars,

16:47

stocks, bonds, but

16:50

also other cryptocurrencies. So

16:52

we arrive at this thing, there's education.

16:54

So anyways, to quasi sort of non-answer

16:56

your question, how do we do this?

16:59

It has to be anchored in deep

17:01

education. Education builds conviction and conviction builds

17:03

strong hands. If you are

17:05

not properly educated, you will want to abuse

17:07

this thing rather than actually

17:10

adopting it and holding it. It's

17:12

a matter of first principles. What is

17:14

this thing? And unless you go there,

17:16

you will be trying to apply programs

17:20

and trading formulas or whatever on top of

17:22

this versus base that level understanding what it

17:24

is, then you can actually move forward with

17:26

how to own it. Yeah,

17:29

it's kind of interesting when you think about

17:31

how massive this is on a global scale.

17:34

But yet, because typically when

17:36

people arrive at a solution,

17:38

they deeply understand the problem,

17:41

like first. And this is

17:44

like that almost flipped on its head where

17:46

you have all these people participating in this

17:48

market. And if you lined up a hundred

17:50

of them that own or participate in this

17:53

and you ask them very deeply describe the problem

17:56

that's being solved here, I think a lot of

17:58

them might give you such a generic. cancer

18:00

that it's like really not hitting the bull's

18:02

eye. It's kind of like near the target,

18:05

but they don't even really understand what the

18:07

problem is that's being solved for. And

18:10

I just don't know as an

18:13

educator in this space and a person that's been

18:15

covering this for a really long time, I

18:17

struggle with is this a function of

18:20

culturally what's playing out with

18:23

a byproduct of fiat itself?

18:26

Is this because we're just doing

18:28

such a bad job from an

18:31

education standpoint? I just don't

18:33

know, but I will tell you it's something I struggle

18:35

with to stay sane and just

18:38

very frustrating. It can

18:40

be tough. It can be really tough to be

18:42

patient with people. I guess

18:44

a few things. This is sort

18:46

of anecdotal, but I would totally

18:48

agree. The adopters of just

18:51

buyers or speculators obviously goes up. That's

18:53

like this, I think it's Pierre who did

18:55

the hype phase. The three cycles

19:01

following a having, the high disillusionment

19:03

and the third one. I

19:05

think that really directly shows like there's a lot of

19:07

people who get into it via hype. Most

19:10

of them fall off and are

19:12

disillusioned, but each cycle, there's

19:14

a new class

19:17

of people who actually are educated. You

19:21

can buy this thing as hype and speculation, but you will

19:23

not be a long-term holder or it's going to be very

19:25

difficult for you to be one or maybe you're an accidental

19:27

long-term holder. There's a meme I saw through

19:29

Scott that was hilarious. It's, I've managed to

19:31

not sell my Bitcoin from $2 up to $70,000. How'd you do

19:33

that? It's like, well,

19:36

I lost my wallet. Maybe you're

19:38

an accidental holder. But besides that,

19:41

you have to actually be educated on this

19:43

and there's new classes regularly coming in and

19:45

being educated versus just buying it as a

19:47

speculative asset. It can be difficult

19:50

to be patient with people on helping them

19:52

understand the problem. Where it's tough for me,

19:54

I love educating people

19:56

who are normal. Where it's frustrating for

19:58

me is being patient. patient with people

20:00

who work in finance. It's like, alright, this

20:03

is your job is to learn these things

20:05

and you're doing a massive disservice. There's a

20:08

group of financial planners I used to be part of a forum

20:10

with and I had to leave because I got mad. I didn't

20:12

want to think I was an absolute jerk. So I just had

20:14

to step out. It's like 5,000 advisors in that group that

20:19

represents hundreds of thousands of families that

20:21

they're working with and they're giving, in

20:23

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This is a paid advertisement. Alright,

23:19

back to the show. When did you step?

23:21

I'm curious on that. When did you step out from

23:23

that? Because one of the things I wanted to ask

23:25

you was just how it's evolved because

23:27

you have one foot in this Bitcoin culture

23:29

deep into that into that culture and you

23:32

know like all the talking points on Twitter

23:34

and all the the psycho memes

23:36

and all that kind of stuff and

23:38

then you have your other foot in

23:40

traditional financial advisement space and

23:42

I couldn't imagine what the contrast

23:44

of those two different

23:46

cultures are and I'm curious

23:48

how it's evolved call it over the last four years.

23:51

Like if you go back to 2020 pre-2020, like what

23:53

was that

23:56

culture like and then like what's it like

23:58

today? Has it changed at all? Just

24:00

help us understand what that's like. It's

24:03

pretty hilarious. My life is quite

24:05

dichotomous in that sense. Bitcoin

24:07

maxi, my assets, or a handful of

24:10

companies that are in the Bitcoin peripheral

24:12

space, and I own my companies. That's it.

24:14

I'm very open to my clients on how would I invest in and

24:16

the things that I own and how I do these things. The

24:19

other foot that I have

24:21

is in this traditional finance,

24:23

CFP, super, quote unquote, prudent

24:26

way of investing. They think

24:28

that if you buy any... Most financial planners

24:30

now have been so sucked into buying the

24:33

index that if you do anything beyond that,

24:35

you're trying to time the market or whatever.

24:39

First off, what frustrates me is these people

24:41

not recognizing that they too are being active

24:43

in some capacity. Even if you're

24:45

just buying the index, you're making a decision

24:47

how you're waiting those indexes. What

24:49

you're buying is small, mid, large cap, international. You're

24:51

making a decision. It's just a little bit less

24:53

active, but admit it. You are making a decision.

24:57

Listening to podcasts, I was listening to

24:59

one last night and they're outside looking

25:03

in. Speculation is that financial planners

25:05

are starting to adopt this more heavily or understand

25:07

it more heavily. I'm a

25:09

very small piece of this, but

25:11

my view is at least in

25:14

this deep CFP fee-only financial planner

25:16

world, no, it's not. Not

25:19

nearly to the extent that people are hoping it is

25:21

right now. I've been

25:23

into this, really vocal on this

25:25

for right about four years now. What

25:28

that looks like is for the last several years,

25:30

I would go quarterly onto this forum of financial

25:33

planners. I would just say, hey, I

25:35

really would love you all to learn about

25:37

Bitcoin for yourself and your clients. It

25:40

would be like 100 people commenting, calling me an idiot. Then

25:43

I would come back a quarter later and say, hey, it

25:45

would be really great if you could learn about this. Here's

25:47

my calendar, put a time on here. I'd

25:49

love to talk with you all. And again, people call me a

25:51

moron. This has been like this for years. Last

25:53

February, I posted Pierre's chart,

25:56

that hype, that chart. I

25:58

meet with all of our clients. clients every February

26:00

and August to basically pull apart their plan and

26:03

rebuild it. Yeah. So I put in that forum,

26:05

that chart, and I said, right

26:07

now, we're meeting all of our clients and we are

26:09

really putting our foot on the gas to increase Bitcoin

26:11

allocations. That's when Bitcoin is like $20,000. And

26:14

again, people were, I was sort of the best

26:17

again, like hundreds of comments calling me a moron.

26:19

So I put up there just for fun. I said, all right, anyone

26:21

who wants to take me up on this, I will go all day.

26:24

VTI at that point, Vanguard's total US index fund

26:26

was at $200 and change, like

26:29

200 and something cents. He said,

26:31

hey, I'll pick up five shares of VTI. You pick

26:33

up 0.041, whatever

26:36

was $1,000 of Bitcoin and Sats,

26:39

we'll both pick these up. December of 25,

26:42

whoever is worth more, the loser has to deliver

26:44

that person's asset to them. No one took me

26:47

up on it. Yeah. So the final

26:49

straw was February of this year.

26:51

So last month, I went

26:53

back, I screenshotted that. Oh my

26:56

God. Again, like, hey, I would love

26:58

to talk with y'all. Also,

27:00

here's an update on that wager I made. And

27:02

if anyone wants to update this, I

27:04

will keep VTI's appreciation. I will like

27:06

Bitcoin's slight clean. Anyone. And it's still

27:09

like, you're such a jerk. How could

27:11

you? It's like, you hurt my feelings.

27:14

And at that point, it was like, okay, at

27:16

least people just think I'm rude and I don't

27:18

want to say anything that would compromise my integrity.

27:20

So I was like, okay, I'm going to step

27:22

out. Funny enough though, I stepped

27:24

out and I did have several financial planners

27:26

since then reach out to me directly and

27:29

say, hey, I actually always appreciated your candidness

27:31

and your posts. I guess they were

27:34

afraid to speak up because then they would be lumped in with

27:36

being a lunatic like me. I don't know. But

27:38

a friend of mine sent me a

27:40

screenshot of, again, I'm not part of that forum anymore. So

27:42

I can't see the conversations. A buddy

27:44

sent me a screenshot probably two

27:46

or three weeks ago. And it

27:48

was a guy saying, hey, we're looking at how we

27:50

can allocate maybe 5% of a portfolio

27:52

to something tactical to get alpha, looking

27:55

at DFA funds, and

27:57

any ideas. And all these people were posting

27:59

things. And the guy commented and said, this is

28:01

where Jim cried to a top in and say, you

28:03

should buy Bitcoin. And then people are

28:05

like, yeah, that guy, that guy. And then people

28:07

started speaking, I was like, I actually sort of

28:09

liked it. And this one guy chimed in and

28:12

said, actually after his posts before he left, I

28:14

went and I bought a little bit of Bitcoin,

28:16

or of Fidelity's ETF, and it's gone

28:18

up massively. He might be right. So

28:21

I'm hoping this soil is getting better,

28:23

slowly. But yeah,

28:26

that's, it's very interesting. Going

28:28

back, you mentioned something earlier, like how do

28:30

you not rage quit though? I guess I'm

28:32

looking to you for advice right now, Jim,

28:34

because like, how do you not rage quit?

28:36

Because for me, I'm almost at a decade

28:38

at this point with this back

28:41

and forth and this incessant, like

28:43

what feels like me just taking my

28:45

forehead and banging against the wall. And

28:49

it's exhausting, man. This is just exhausting,

28:51

like how, like you are not in

28:53

the form anymore, right? Like you're not

28:56

like, yeah. Because you

28:58

were just so frustrated. Yeah,

29:00

I did not want to, I didn't want to come across as

29:02

a jerk. And there's a point that was like, I

29:05

was viewed as a jerk for a very long time, but

29:07

I was still bringing value. But I got to the point where

29:09

it was like, I'm casting

29:11

pearls before swine, I'm gonna step away.

29:14

I think I'm much more tolerant from normal

29:16

people rather than financial planners. Because

29:19

financial planners like, again, these are

29:21

like super smart planners who like out of

29:23

the system, like these weird terms,

29:25

like fee only CFPs at- Super smart

29:28

as long as the currency's not failing.

29:30

Yeah. You're like, you know,

29:33

cruise across financial planners. Hope you or your

29:35

parents or grandparents go to. Like these type

29:37

of people, crazy smart people. And

29:39

the problem is they pride themselves in thinking

29:42

differently than like the other like traditional like Raymond

29:44

James or Merrill Lynch guys. Like, okay, we're gonna

29:46

really do what's best for our clients. But they

29:48

won't go there. And that's what frustrates me. But

29:50

like, yeah, normal people, I can go with that

29:53

all day. Cause I remember I was one of

29:55

them. I heard about Bitcoin in 2012. I

29:58

didn't pay attention because the guy that- I didn't

30:00

heard it from, I thought it was probably stone most of

30:02

the time. They're like, alright, whatever. So, I used to be

30:04

that guy. I shouldn't expect

30:07

some guy off the street to

30:09

understand that like, oh yeah, our

30:11

money is absolutely broken and all

30:13

these things. You have to pay attention to these

30:15

things. So, here, you mentioned earlier

30:17

about identifying the problem.

30:19

This made me think, so I'm a Christian

30:22

and if you come to someone and

30:25

say like, hey, Jesus died, so

30:27

you can be saved. You won't

30:29

understand that. The thing is, the Old Testament

30:31

was thousands of years in the making of

30:33

there was a law that was given to

30:35

people and the purpose of the

30:38

law was to show that you can never

30:40

fulfill the law. It was to show

30:42

that you were absolutely broken and in need of

30:44

something outside of yourself to save you. That

30:46

was the role of the law. That

30:48

way, when the solution came,

30:50

being Jesus came, you could

30:53

recognize, okay, what I have

30:55

I can't do on my own. I am

30:57

absolutely broken. I need something outside of this

30:59

to save me. So, you

31:01

have to be completely aware of your

31:03

brokenness. I look at it in a

31:05

very similar way of you have

31:07

to be aware of the broken system and if

31:09

you're not aware of that, you don't have the

31:11

need for solution. And again, most

31:13

people don't know the system is broken and that's

31:16

where, again, like educating our clients, showing them like

31:18

that bill that got passed this weekend of like the $1.2

31:20

trillion dollars, it was just passed

31:22

over like a couple hours, a thousand pages that

31:24

no one read. It's those things,

31:26

when you just bring those up to people,

31:28

they're like, oh wow, something seems weird. That's

31:31

when I went down the Bitcoin rabbit hole deep was

31:33

March of 20 when all of a sudden the shutdowns

31:36

were in conversations and it was like, okay,

31:39

this is odd. Something's got

31:41

to be broken. I spent a couple

31:43

of weeks going on these crazy long

31:45

walks, listening to your podcasts, reading books

31:48

on gold mining and Bitcoin. And

31:51

after a couple of weeks of just like, that's all I did

31:53

basically, I was like, all right, I'm going to go with Bitcoin.

31:56

But I would not have gone there unless

31:58

I recognize something's wrong with the apps

32:00

like the foundation level of our structure and

32:02

most people don't know that yet. I

32:05

think one of the things that makes this

32:07

really complicated is when you're

32:09

looking at the dollar and somebody's

32:11

saying, oh, it's debasing, it's debasing. And

32:14

so what are they typically comparing it

32:16

to? What most people

32:18

are typically comparing the dollar to is

32:20

the performance against the euro or the

32:23

performance against the yen or some other

32:25

like major top five, top 10 currency.

32:28

And when you're looking at the performance of the

32:30

dollar, let's say you're looking at DXY, the

32:32

dollar index relative to like all these other

32:34

major currencies. When you're looking at

32:36

that comparison of these currency to

32:38

other fiat currencies, what you're finding

32:40

is that there's these gyrations, but for the

32:43

most part, it's really not changing all that

32:45

much over a 10, 20 year period of

32:47

time. It's pretty generically, there's

32:49

just like a generic amount of volatility between them.

32:52

And so a person is looking at this and

32:54

they're saying, well, the dollar is not

32:56

really debasing all that much. I don't know

32:58

what these crazy Bitcoiners are talking about, but

33:01

what they're failing to measure it

33:03

against is something that is a

33:05

hard, desirable thing. And where this

33:07

gets even more confusing is when

33:09

they do that, they're not

33:11

accounting for Jeff Booth's thesis, which

33:13

is technology is a deflationary force.

33:15

And so they're looking at it

33:17

like, oh yeah, the prices aren't

33:19

going up that much. And

33:22

so you have like these two, in my

33:24

opinion, the thing that really makes the problem

33:26

difficult to wrap your head around are those

33:28

two dynamics, whether they're comparing it

33:30

to fiat or they're comparing it to some

33:33

physical hard thing. There's

33:35

things that are naturally masking

33:37

the issue at hand. And

33:40

so they're looking at Bitcoin and they're saying, oh,

33:42

well, it doesn't produce anything that's like,

33:45

there's no free cash flows or anything.

33:47

And it's just all this speculative mania that's

33:49

causing the price to go wild like

33:51

this. Meanwhile, it is the gauge. It

33:54

is the freaking gauge that's showing

33:56

people what the real problem is

33:58

because it's the only... one that

34:00

the governments can't plug or mask

34:03

or hide of the other two things

34:05

that I described earlier. Yeah,

34:07

that's so good. I love... Sailor

34:09

has an interview with Tucker Carlson

34:12

and he brings up that

34:14

the inflationary basket of goods and

34:16

he mentions like, look, if you live in

34:18

your parents' basement and you eat Domino's pizza,

34:20

your inflation rate is gonna be next to

34:22

nothing. But if you desire scarce

34:25

desirable goods, your inflation rate is something

34:27

different. And that's where like,

34:29

so my house, I live in Texas and a

34:31

lot of people move to Texas and

34:34

especially our town. Like in

34:36

2021, the quote unquote value of

34:38

my house went up by 31% during that year.

34:41

My house did not get 31% better like

34:44

at all. I have four young kids.

34:46

They're all... It got worse. Definitely. Holes

34:48

in our sheetrock and our kids running

34:50

into the walls. Like it got 31%

34:52

worse. So you have to recognize my...

34:54

Yeah, maybe we can

34:57

attribute some of that growth of

34:59

value to like real growth to

35:01

people coming in. The problem is

35:03

most of that's nominal and my house

35:05

did not get 31% more valuable. The

35:08

dollar itself that you're buying that with went

35:10

down in value. Yeah. And I

35:12

think people are trying to wake up to this. That's why

35:14

you're starting to see like, I don't have TikTok but I

35:16

see these videos reposted. People just like sitting in their cars

35:19

probably after a long shift, recognizing like,

35:21

why am I doing this? I

35:23

go to the grocery store and I can't

35:25

buy anything. And like, I'm stressed at work.

35:28

And I think people are trying to wake up to

35:30

like, something's wrong here. Why do I feel stressed all

35:32

the time about my money? And why does it seem

35:34

like it's not taking me as far? I have people

35:36

all the time. I did someone put on my calendar

35:38

yesterday morning that hey, young

35:40

family, they make good amount. Multiple

35:43

six figures could have done like a few

35:45

decades would have been doing insanely well. They

35:47

said, make this much, but

35:49

feel like we're constantly behind. And

35:52

that's where I think people are just at.

35:54

It's like, what's wrong? So they understand now

35:57

there is something in the water. Going back

35:59

to that. terrible analogy about the fish.

36:01

There's something in this water. It's getting

36:03

murky. But what is it? They

36:05

don't see this massive pipe just dumping

36:07

in this toxic waste. Yeah.

36:10

So it's trying to be

36:12

patient with people and recognizing like, I

36:15

did not know this all the time. I was fortunate

36:17

enough to listen to you and listen to other people. And

36:19

yeah, eventually you have to do the work yourself. Here's

36:22

a question I got for you that I would think would

36:24

be frustrating

36:28

if I was in your shoes. And it's

36:31

you're dealing with couples a lot of

36:33

the time and the management of their

36:35

money and you convince one of them

36:37

like they get the problem, they understand

36:39

the solution, but there's two of them.

36:42

And it's like, how do you deal

36:44

with that? Because that's a problem I don't

36:46

have to deal with. I just record shows,

36:49

I blast them out into the ether and

36:51

like people either like it or hate it

36:53

or whatever. But like you're having these intimate

36:55

relationships with people one-on-one having deep discussions. And

36:58

I can only imagine that like they

37:00

can get really challenging at times, especially getting

37:02

into let's just say that they both agree

37:04

to take a position then it's like, what's

37:06

the proper position size? Because one of them

37:08

might be like gung-ho and once large, a

37:10

large position size and the other one's like,

37:12

I want less than a percent or whatever.

37:15

So talk us through how in the world do you

37:17

manage that? Because I would imagine most people listening to

37:19

this show are dealing with this

37:21

exact problem all the time. I guess

37:24

a few things to that. So I had a meeting last

37:26

night, it was 10 o'clock meeting with a family I've worked

37:28

with for a few years now. And

37:30

we just calculated like, all right, let's get

37:32

updates where you are. We recognize that right

37:34

now, 41% of their total investable assets

37:38

are allocated to Bitcoin. And

37:40

we were talking about one of their investment accounts. Should

37:43

we increase, decrease or keep the same

37:45

towards your Bitcoin allocation there? And

37:48

they said, Jim, what do you think? So let's

37:50

hear what you all think first. And I knew

37:52

the question, I knew we wanted to increase. And

37:55

then I just prodded them some

37:57

with like, consider volatility.

37:59

consider sequence of return risks, things like this, like what

38:02

would be part of my job? And

38:04

they both like, okay, yeah, I definitely want to

38:06

go up. What about 25%? What about 35%?

38:09

They just sort of bounced it back and forth. So

38:11

my wife Kendra brought this up a few nights ago,

38:13

like she doesn't really care about

38:15

Bitcoin. Like she goes along with it. She understands what

38:17

she needs to know. But like, I would assume she's

38:19

a lot like your wife. Like she, your wife has

38:22

a pot. She didn't have a podcast about this. Like,

38:24

yeah, great. I trust you and I love you, babe.

38:26

We're in this together. That's the least where Kendra and

38:28

I are. That is exactly where my wife and I

38:30

are as well. Just so people know, like, she's like

38:33

very happy that I get a lot of joy out

38:35

of all this, but just like not her cup of

38:37

tea, not very interested in any of

38:39

it. It's kind of funny actually. But go

38:41

ahead. Sorry. No, I'd say yeah,

38:43

Montana this fall, we go out there for that Bitcoin

38:46

retreat. Like Kendra's going to come so she can go

38:48

hang out the mountains. Not because she can talk about

38:50

Bitcoin. That's totally fine. And that's how most of our,

38:52

the couples you work with are. So

38:54

to get to a place where we can

38:56

have good communication and arrive at proper action

38:59

steps, we have to go way back. So

39:01

way back is not assigning portfolios or talking

39:03

tax planning. It's also not talking about goals.

39:05

Like we want to buy a lake house.

39:07

We can't go there. We have to go

39:09

back to the underlying values. What is important

39:11

to you as a family? So

39:13

like I have sort of two definitions of

39:15

money based off of the context. So one

39:17

of those is that money is a tool

39:19

or resource to help you do what's important

39:22

to you in life. And

39:24

my job is to help you use your money

39:26

in the most efficient and effective manner for that

39:28

purpose. That's what we do. So when we start

39:30

off with working with families, we have to go

39:32

there. Like underlying base values

39:34

for your family, what's important to

39:36

you? That has to be past goals.

39:39

If it's like, oh yeah, we want to have a house in the mountains. Okay,

39:42

that seems arbitrary. Why? Oh, we really want

39:44

a place that we can gather as a

39:46

family to create memories. It's like, oh, you

39:48

don't want a house. You want

39:50

memories with your kids. That's what you want.

39:53

So we have to go there. You don't want

39:55

retirement. You want freedom to spend the time

39:57

with who you want to be with doing things that

39:59

are important. important to you, not retirement, you want

40:01

time freedom. So we have to go there. Once

40:04

we've established that, then we go into what's the

40:06

goals you have, recognizing like your goals are going

40:09

to change, that your goals today are different than

40:11

they were five years ago and they're going to

40:13

be way different five years from now. That's totally

40:15

fine. The purpose of a goal is not to

40:17

be arbitrarily tied to this thing you once said

40:19

was important to you, it's to inform what's the

40:21

best next step to take. Understanding

40:24

as you take these steps, that goal will

40:26

change, but if your goal is informed by

40:29

the backdrop of those values, even though that

40:31

goal shifts, you're still ultimately pursuing the underlying

40:33

informative of that. So

40:35

values, goals, then we talk through decisions. So

40:38

we talk through the opportunity costs, the things

40:40

that you will have to decide upon. If

40:42

you choose one thing, you are directly

40:44

or indirectly giving up something else. If

40:47

we've gone through all of those things properly, finally

40:50

taking action should be relatively

40:52

easy. I forgot who said that,

40:54

I heard it years ago on the podcast. When your vision

40:56

is clear, the decisions are easy. So

40:58

we have to start with clarity of vision. So

41:01

values, goals, decisions, finally action. So

41:03

once we've gotten to this place of taking

41:05

action, I know it sounds like a lot

41:07

of like talking through allocations and Bitcoin and

41:09

all these things, but really we've done all

41:11

the hard work upfront. Now we can go

41:13

and we are less apt to waste resources,

41:16

money, time, career choices, family

41:18

choices because we have direction of what's important

41:20

to us. Everything's being

41:22

addressed or informed by that.

41:25

So for now, it's like, hey, Bitcoin allocation. We

41:27

already discussed the opportunity costs, also have them

41:30

do sort of a pre-mortem of like we

41:32

start working together. What's the most likely things?

41:34

I paint this picture that's relatively grim in

41:36

the future. And it's like,

41:38

what things, what actions were taken or not

41:40

taken, what things happened or did it happen

41:42

between now and then that got you to

41:44

this point? So I allow

41:47

them to inform me and themselves what's

41:49

probably the most likely cause of them

41:51

being unsuccessful. So anyways, once

41:53

we've done all these things, then we can

41:55

go to specifically, like in this case, like

41:57

Bitcoin and it's less. of

42:00

a Bitcoin conversation, it's,

42:02

we've already got, we've done the hard work. It's

42:05

like, okay, cool. Now we just talked through the

42:07

opportunity costs, the risks, the volatility, these

42:09

other things. It's like, okay, now we can move forward. And we're

42:11

less, we are super apt

42:14

to not change our minds. So like when

42:16

we had clients who joined in like

42:19

the all-time high, 69,000 prior

42:21

all-time high, and they wrote Bitcoin

42:23

all the way down to 16, I didn't have

42:25

a single client who sold Bitcoin at

42:27

the bottom, not a single one. I had a lot

42:30

of clients who we went and scooped up a whole

42:32

bunch at 16 to 20. It's

42:34

because your values didn't change, your

42:36

goals didn't change, the underlying role

42:39

of our view of Bitcoin didn't change.

42:41

Why would we change our plan? Of

42:43

course, if you own Enron and it's

42:45

down to two cents, still sell it. But you have to

42:47

understand like, why do I own this thing? And that's where

42:50

we have to anchor into education. Yeah,

42:52

it's sort of hard to answer like how do we

42:54

arrive at those conversations? But it's super easy if you

42:56

start off on the same page. That's

42:58

where like, I mean, that's why I got into finance.

43:00

Money is the number one cause of divorce. Basically

43:02

every year, these studies have been done.

43:05

So we have to be articulate

43:07

and communicative on what's the

43:09

role of money for our family. And

43:12

if you've started there, and you talk through

43:14

my second definition of money is

43:16

money is a means of

43:19

communicating, storing and transferring value across

43:21

space and time. And then

43:23

we've talked through Bitcoin and we believe, I believe

43:25

that Bitcoin is the best form of money we've

43:27

ever had. And it's like, cool,

43:29

money is this thing and it's this thing. Are

43:32

you aligning your money with what's

43:34

important to you? And is Bitcoin part of that?

43:36

And if so, what role does

43:38

it have? And it's inevitable that we

43:40

believe these clients who came to us looking

43:42

for normal dude in a suit for

43:45

a 60-40 portfolio arrive at, yeah, we should

43:47

definitely own some Bitcoin. And

43:49

usually that starts off for

43:52

me conservative, for most people, absolute nuts. I

43:54

guess people on Twitter would think it's still

43:56

conservative, but normal people like at

43:58

first our average, our average. allocation for clients were

44:01

like 10 to 20%. Right now, I would say on

44:03

average, our clients have 35% of

44:05

their total amount of assets in Bitcoin, which

44:08

is maniacal, in some

44:10

senses. But we are deeply

44:12

talking through these things. You

44:14

saw someone a chart of post-World

44:17

War I Germany, the gold versus

44:19

German marks. I'm not

44:22

saying that's the in case right now. But

44:24

at that point, does a 2% allocation

44:26

and gold make sense? Yeah.

44:29

So it's all about education

44:31

and informing deep. You

44:34

have to go there. There's no shortcuts to

44:36

this. That's the problem with like, that's

44:38

why people get frustrated is because you don't

44:40

get it. You don't get it. It's like, well, they never

44:43

had the understanding of why they should get

44:46

it. I have the privilege, I recognize

44:49

it, of people wanting to have these

44:51

conversations with me and trusting me versus

44:53

like, you know, a drive by Bitcoin

44:55

that you're less apt

44:57

to get an adoption from that because you don't have

44:59

that trusted relationship and those the ability to have those

45:02

conversations. Let's take a quick break

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right, back to the show. I

48:38

think it's an important highlight and I don't know that this

48:40

is true. I suspect this is true. When

48:42

you're saying such a large holding, I would

48:45

imagine it's because you have people that

48:47

have been dollar cost averaging for a

48:49

long period of time and it has

48:52

taken over their portfolio to be this

48:54

sizing. And the number one thing

48:56

I've heard for a decade of

48:59

doing the show from the best in the

49:01

world at managing money is you don't sell

49:03

your winners, especially if the thesis hasn't changed.

49:06

You let it run, you let it ride, you don't

49:08

pay the taxes, you allow your winners to run. And

49:11

I would imagine that's why a lot of people

49:13

that you said such a large because

49:15

that is for financial

49:17

management. That is massive allocation,

49:19

but Bitcoin has a tendency

49:22

to just take over your portfolio if you've

49:24

been allocating to it consistently for four years.

49:26

It's just going to take over your portfolio.

49:28

That's how least it has in

49:31

my case. That's the

49:33

meeting I had last night. Right now,

49:35

I think we bought in at Bitcoin was like 5% of

49:38

their total investable assets. And

49:40

now it's 41%. We talked through

49:42

like, okay, I would assume at the end of

49:44

this bull run, totally guessing, obviously, but I would

49:46

assume it's going to be like 90% of your

49:48

total investable assets. Like it's a

49:51

function of these things. And that's where, again,

49:53

I live in this weird dichotomous world of

49:55

like, who did CFP stuff and like, okay, at

49:57

that point, do we take chips off the

49:59

table? Why does it make sense?

50:01

We talked through the impact of long-term cap

50:03

gains. Like, all right, based off if we

50:06

guess Bitcoin's X amount and your cost basis

50:08

is X, and you're going to be

50:10

taxed at 18.3% long-term cap gains,

50:12

you better hope that you time that dip by at least

50:14

18.3% dip to

50:16

buy that thing to break even on a

50:19

post-tax basis. Yeah, it's lots

50:21

of fun conversations. I

50:23

like the point that you're making in your

50:26

answer to the couple's question because

50:28

I think it's super profound. It's

50:30

super important, which is ask

50:32

yourself why five times is kind

50:34

of the saying as it goes.

50:37

When you were describing, oh, I want

50:39

a mountain in the wood or I

50:41

want a house in the mountains and

50:45

I want to go do, you know, I want it to

50:47

be like this. And it's like, well, why do you

50:49

want that? Well, it's because I think it would be

50:52

a lot of fun to go skiing or I think

50:54

it'd be fun to live in a mountain town. And

50:56

it's like, well, why would it be fun? Well, it's

50:58

because my family would be there. And like you really

51:00

pull the thread on like, what

51:02

is the root of

51:05

Y? And then when you're looking at it

51:07

very objectively and at

51:10

the core of the Y, you

51:12

can say, well, do I need to

51:15

really be making payments on that particular

51:17

house every day of the year? Or

51:19

can I just rent it out for

51:22

one week or two weeks out of

51:24

the year at a drastically reduced expense?

51:26

And can I go to five different

51:28

ski towns if that was something you

51:30

desire as opposed to going

51:32

to the same one and would I get

51:34

more enjoyment? And you just, you're able to

51:36

really kind of pick apart what

51:38

works best for you. And what

51:40

I find so fascinating about this is

51:43

when you're dealing with money, that

51:45

you're not worried about it

51:48

being a $1 being

51:50

worth 90 cents or 80 cents in

51:52

a year from now, you're able to

51:54

kind of take a step back and

51:57

ask these much deeper questions because

51:59

you don't have this propensity or this

52:01

urge to spend it as fast as

52:03

humanly possible because it's going to be

52:05

worth less tomorrow. I just

52:08

think that it's so important and

52:10

I think that so many of us are just

52:12

great at lying to ourselves, Jim. I

52:14

think we are. I

52:17

think we're so good at lying to ourselves

52:19

as to what it is we actually want

52:21

because so many of us

52:23

have like deep-seated insecurities or fears that

52:25

are driving a lot of our decision-making

52:27

as opposed to a frame of reference

52:30

that there's just absolute abundance

52:32

all around us and

52:34

we can harness it at any moment that we

52:36

want if we just change

52:38

our perspective or change our point of

52:41

view to harness it. I've

52:43

had countless conversations that lead to

52:45

tears for people who are like

52:47

super successful or

52:50

people who like totally miss the mark and

52:52

what happens a lot. So for a while,

52:54

I worked particularly with physicians who

52:56

were about to or just retired. So

52:59

people usually make in half a million to two million

53:01

a year and in their 60s, early

53:05

70s and we would sit down and

53:08

we would talk about their family and those sorts of

53:10

things and we'd look at

53:12

their money. Like we all were wildly

53:14

successful financially. I'm really

53:16

curious like what made you want to

53:19

do this? What made you want to be an anesthesiologist

53:21

and do these sorts of things? The

53:24

answer is so often, it's so sobering.

53:27

When I was a kid, my parents fought

53:30

about money all the time and we didn't

53:32

have good clothes, we didn't have great food, we

53:34

never went on trips and I just heard them

53:36

bicker all the time and I decided when I

53:38

was 12, I wanted my kids to

53:41

have a better childhood than I had. It's

53:43

like man, that's amazing and clearly you're able

53:45

to provide them for them in a different

53:47

way. How was it? Was

53:50

being a parent? How were you all kid's childhood? Was it able to

53:52

be what you hoped it would be when you were a kid?

53:55

And man, I've had so many occasions where

53:57

they just stop and realize for the most part

54:00

first time like, I don't know. I

54:03

wasn't worked too much. I

54:05

missed it. People break down tears all

54:08

the time recognizing that. Grown

54:10

men making a fortune realizing the whole reason

54:12

I did this is so I can spend

54:14

time in my family and man, it's gone.

54:17

That's why I'm very cognizant of my

54:19

job. Again, I want financial freedom. One

54:21

of those reasons is so I can

54:23

spend a lot of time with my

54:25

family. Thing is, again, I have four young

54:27

kids. My kids right now want for me to read

54:29

to them at night. They want me to sword

54:31

fight with them in the afternoon. They want me

54:33

to be present. I can't say, hey, Atticus, sorry,

54:36

I can't be around. Don't worry though. We'll get a house

54:38

and tell you right in 10 years, then we can hang

54:40

out. You know, 10 years, I'm like, forget you, dad. Where

54:42

were you when I wanted you to read to me and

54:44

cuddle me? Amen. Again,

54:46

like if you are not being informed by what's important to you, you could have a

54:48

goal, but that goal is going to be way off. You

54:50

think you want a house? You want time

54:52

with your family? You think you want retirement?

54:54

You want time to do what's important to

54:56

you? You think you want lots of money?

54:58

No, you want options to be generous and

55:00

to give and do. Yeah, but

55:03

you cannot go there until you've asked

55:05

these questions. I think that's sort of

55:07

why Bitcoin is easy for me because

55:09

like Feliz Conversations, because they're super similar.

55:11

I have these questions of like life.

55:14

What's important to you in life? Your money is just a means

55:16

of helping you do what's important to you in your life. Oh,

55:18

and the move to Bitcoin. What is money?

55:20

Like what is Bitcoin? We're not talking about Bitcoin as

55:22

the solution to a problem. We have to go deeper

55:25

than that. Like what's the problem here? What's the thing

55:27

we're trying to address? And it turns

55:29

over to each other, the conversation type, super

55:31

simple, like simply. And people

55:33

start connecting the pieces of why and how these

55:36

things work and actually how they work in

55:38

tandem. Oh, amazing

55:41

comments. I just have to say, just

55:43

so refreshing to hear you say some

55:45

of this stuff. All right.

55:47

Let's talk more

55:49

specifically just about Bitcoin. This is one of

55:51

the questions I love asking people. What

55:54

is the one thing that you think is super

55:56

important about Bitcoin that is lost on so many

55:58

people? This is

56:00

going to seem super simple, especially to most

56:02

of your listeners who are super familiar

56:04

with Bitcoin. But recognizing

56:07

that Bitcoin, it's not a company, it's

56:09

not a stock, it is

56:11

the denominator in these

56:13

equations. But you have to go there.

56:17

And that then informs so much. Like, there's not

56:19

going to be stock splits of Bitcoin. There's

56:22

not going to be arbitrarily more units

56:24

created. It's not competing

56:26

against the NASDAQ or

56:28

a particular company. It is the thing

56:30

that those things are going to be priced in. That's

56:33

something that is so profound that on a

56:35

regular basis, I have to remind myself of

56:37

that. When you're thinking

56:39

through, again, it's like, oh,

56:42

should I buy this real estate property? Or

56:44

even owning my company. I was talking, Jesse

56:47

Meyers, you've had Jesse on your show, please. I

56:49

was talking with Jesse recently and he was

56:52

like, look, man, I've come to terms that

56:54

it's most likely that the

56:56

things that I own are probably the most

56:58

valuable in Bitcoin terms that they'll ever be

57:00

right now. And yeah,

57:02

that's the one who's super ingrained in

57:05

Bitcoin. And it's that. Again,

57:08

I love the simple things. Just

57:11

reminding yourself of that. It

57:13

is the money. It's so

57:15

true because I just know my

57:18

behavior as a consumer

57:20

has so drastically changed the

57:22

more that I deeply understood Bitcoin

57:24

and the more that you go

57:27

through yet another cycle, you just

57:29

you become quite efficient and you find that, oh,

57:31

yeah, I just really don't need that. Like I

57:34

could totally go buy it, but I just really

57:36

don't need it because you are

57:38

valuing everything as this is the most valuable that

57:40

this will ever be in Bitcoin terms. So like,

57:42

I just don't really need that. And

57:46

I don't know, it's very strange because

57:49

I know what I was like before

57:51

Bitcoin and now I obviously have been

57:53

in it for a few years and

57:55

it's just like you can see the

57:57

change happening in yourself individually. I

58:00

can only imagine what that means from

58:02

a corporate standpoint, from a, I mean,

58:04

look at micro strategy. Like, I

58:07

mean, you talk about a shift in how

58:09

they think about everything and how they

58:11

perform economic calculation. And now like, let's

58:13

zoom out to the country level or

58:16

the local government level. Like once leaders

58:18

truly start understanding this, it's going to

58:20

just be a fractal of what we're

58:22

experiencing on an individual level and how

58:24

we think about our own consumption and

58:26

what it is we need and how

58:28

efficiently we were trying to live our

58:30

lives. It's just freaking

58:33

crazy. So I guess the question would

58:35

be this, like, what do you see culturally shifting in the

58:37

next 5, 10, 15 years? It's

58:40

going to be an understanding of Bitcoin. Like I

58:42

personally, I'm probably wrong. But

58:44

right now I think that we will

58:47

continue to see to some extent these

58:49

ebbs and flows of the price movement

58:51

dictated or highly correlated with the halving

58:53

cycles. But I think we'll see a

58:55

massive decoupling from that in the 2032 cycle. I

58:59

think there's two reasons that would lead to that

59:01

conclusion. One of those is

59:03

more broad, deep education and

59:05

adoption. Again, educated adoption

59:07

is what's going to build strong

59:10

hands and long-term conviction versus

59:12

this hype. I mean, this is the

59:14

hype that leads, that fuels all this

59:16

speculative mania. So broad understanding and

59:18

education. And I think we need more time. Again,

59:20

like right now, the adoption rate, educated adoption rate

59:22

of Bitcoin is like 1%

59:24

of the population. But it's picking up

59:27

massively. If I

59:29

was going to push back on that,

59:31

okay, and I'm not trying to be

59:33

a proponent of it happening faster. But

59:36

when I'm looking at like what is truly

59:38

going to drive it to take off at

59:40

an accelerative pace, it's not the

59:42

number of participants, it's

59:45

the people that control the existing buying

59:47

power figuring it out. So

59:49

if you're a person who's controlling

59:52

a $5 billion bond tranche and

59:54

you figure this out, or

59:56

you're a person who's in charge

59:58

of a G7 country, and you

1:00:01

have enormous influence on the direction of

1:00:03

where things are going. I mean, look

1:00:05

at El Salvador, right? The president there,

1:00:08

he's figured it out. But

1:00:10

he's controlling a pittance in the global scheme

1:00:13

of things with respect to the amount

1:00:15

of buying power he's throwing around. But

1:00:17

what happens when a few of

1:00:20

these people that are controlling the

1:00:22

purse strings of society and these

1:00:25

flows of energy start figuring

1:00:27

it out? I'm sorry, but things are

1:00:29

going to spiral really, really fast. Like

1:00:33

really fast. You don't need

1:00:35

to convince 3 billion people to

1:00:38

understand this. You have to convince maybe 25

1:00:40

or 200. I

1:00:44

don't know what the number is, but I think it's

1:00:46

way less than I need a billion people to figure

1:00:49

this out. I

1:00:51

agree. Yes, I actually

1:00:53

completely agree. I know it doesn't sound

1:00:55

like that. I believe there will

1:00:57

still be some correlation of the halving

1:00:59

with what we've seen with this like

1:01:02

whatever 15, 20X followed by 70, 80%

1:01:04

drop. I

1:01:06

do not believe, I think I'm totally guessing here, I don't

1:01:08

believe the drop will be 80% this time

1:01:11

around. I think it'll be

1:01:13

drastically reduced and then it'll be

1:01:15

reduced again next halving cycle. And then

1:01:17

again, the 2032 cycle because of the dispersed

1:01:19

education plus just the stock to flow impact

1:01:21

where like the halving just doesn't make as

1:01:23

much of an impact from the again, from

1:01:26

a stock to flow perspective. Those

1:01:28

two things coinciding. I think it'll be like

1:01:30

really boring ebbs and flows of price with

1:01:32

the halving cycles. I've got a weird theory

1:01:34

on that. I think that what we're

1:01:36

gonna see from this point

1:01:39

kind of moving further to the right

1:01:41

in the timeline is

1:01:43

I think you're gonna start

1:01:45

to see such aggressive impairment

1:01:47

kind of manifest itself in

1:01:49

the legacy financial fiat system

1:01:53

that it's going to be somewhat similar

1:01:55

to like what we saw in COVID

1:01:57

where we had this just unprecedented impairment.

1:02:00

that happened in March of 2020, I

1:02:03

think that you're gonna see those

1:02:05

scenarios like quickly present themselves. You're

1:02:07

gonna see Fiat get bid like

1:02:10

crazy through that impairment because they're

1:02:12

like all these paper promises are just blowing

1:02:14

up and the cascading effect of that is

1:02:17

going to be wild. And

1:02:20

I think that they're gonna have to

1:02:22

step in and plug these holes with

1:02:24

so much Fiat firepower that

1:02:27

you're gonna see a bounce back, a swing

1:02:29

back. So what we've seen

1:02:31

in the first, let's call it the first

1:02:33

half of Bitcoin was that we had these

1:02:35

80% draw downs but

1:02:37

they were like long and drawn

1:02:39

out and lasted a year. I

1:02:41

think you still see like

1:02:44

crazy volatility but it's

1:02:46

much maybe shorter. And

1:02:48

like once they plug the hole that it

1:02:50

just comes screaming back into it. Similar to

1:02:52

the... So if you go

1:02:54

to Jim's Twitter, he

1:02:56

has a picture of the 1920s

1:02:59

Germany, the volatility that was happening in

1:03:01

gold relative to the mark and then

1:03:03

you have this quote, you

1:03:06

got lucky holding gold instead of the German

1:03:08

mark post World War I. No,

1:03:10

I understood money and I'm able to zoom out

1:03:12

was your quote on top of this chart which

1:03:14

I think a lot of people in Bitcoin are

1:03:17

familiar with but... And I'm not

1:03:19

saying that that's what is gonna happen, I just

1:03:21

wouldn't be surprised if that was what was happening,

1:03:23

what was playing out moving forward. That

1:03:26

is a... I would agree that's my thesis.

1:03:28

And with the adopters, like, I mean,

1:03:31

we're seeing that already. Like for instance, the whole the

1:03:34

Fidelity mutual funds up in Canada, there's

1:03:36

like the total allocation funds.

1:03:39

So like their conservative has 1%, their

1:03:41

moderate to 2% and their

1:03:43

aggressive is 3% I believe. I

1:03:45

believe that by the end of

1:03:47

next year, we will see those not just in

1:03:49

Canada, but in the US with Fidelity funds. And it

1:03:52

would not surprise me if we see 1% to

1:03:54

5% allocation in Fidelity's target

1:03:56

date funds. That means they're gonna

1:03:58

be an incredible amount of people who own... Bitcoin inside

1:04:00

of their 401k plans just by opting into

1:04:03

the 2060 target date fund

1:04:05

because that's what I'm going to retire. And

1:04:07

then suddenly institutions, Fidelity is not going

1:04:09

to be trading this like some bro

1:04:11

like that leads these massive ebbs and

1:04:13

flows of the hype cycles. They're

1:04:17

more long-term informed holders. So I

1:04:19

totally agree. I'm just really curious

1:04:21

to see to what extent retail

1:04:23

versus institutional is able to

1:04:26

impact these things. Again,

1:04:28

I would argue it's going to

1:04:30

be massively reduced but still noticeable.

1:04:34

And maybe I'm projecting that I just hope

1:04:36

it's there because man, I hope it's there.

1:04:38

How may Bitcoin goes up? Yeah,

1:04:41

save all these people. They're going to get wrecked. And

1:04:44

by the way, the rebalancing on these

1:04:46

for them to keep it at 1% is

1:04:48

just such a punch in the face. Like

1:04:51

such a punch in the face for performance.

1:04:54

But I'm sure that's what they're going to do. They're

1:04:56

going to rebalance it. They're going to keep it at like 1% or

1:04:59

3% or whatever the number is

1:05:01

that the mandate inside the fund is. And it's

1:05:03

just going to be relative

1:05:05

to just owning it and just letting it run.

1:05:07

It's just a phantom tax. Oh my God. The

1:05:09

phantom taxes are going to be hilarious. I didn't

1:05:12

sell anything. It's like, oh, it's

1:05:14

because we sold Bitcoin 19 times in August.

1:05:17

Do you want to even talk about

1:05:19

the ETFs versus owning it outright

1:05:21

and at spot and taking custody

1:05:24

and that kind of stuff? Or do you want to leave it right there?

1:05:27

I mean, whatever. We can go into that some. Let's go

1:05:29

into it real fast and then we'll wrap up. Sweet.

1:05:33

I advocate to own Bitcoin directly. Like if you're going

1:05:35

to own Bitcoin, you probably won't own Bitcoin. Yeah,

1:05:37

we start with that. Like it's a false way of... So

1:05:40

I think everybody's going to agree with you. But

1:05:42

I think the counterpoint comes up and I'm not

1:05:44

saying that this is my counterpoint, but somebody who

1:05:46

would be sitting here arguing would be like, you

1:05:49

know, my grandma cannot sell custody.

1:05:51

She would be a disaster. She'd

1:05:53

lose the keys. She'd have no

1:05:56

idea how to technologically manage that

1:05:58

risk. And so for... somebody

1:06:00

like that is the 6102 attack

1:06:03

more risky than grandma's incompetence. I

1:06:05

think is really kind of the

1:06:07

question. So good. Is

1:06:10

it riskier? The question here is, is it riskier

1:06:12

to have a 6102 or something

1:06:15

like that, or to just not

1:06:17

have exposure to Bitcoin at all? That's

1:06:19

the question. Are you, is the question, do you not

1:06:21

love grandma enough to help

1:06:25

her with her self-custage? Is

1:06:27

grandma, is grandma never going to buy it?

1:06:29

You know, or like, I have a fair

1:06:32

amount of clients who right now

1:06:34

we have not gone and bought Bitcoin directly

1:06:36

and moved it to cold storage. The majority

1:06:38

have, but there are lots who

1:06:40

have not yet because it's like, Hey Jim,

1:06:43

I agree. I need to have exposure to this thing.

1:06:45

But like, we'll get there. It's like, cool. Let's just

1:06:47

get exposure right now. Like baby steps.

1:06:49

Let's just, let's just get there and they'll continue

1:06:51

learning. It's inevitable. We go through, we have that

1:06:53

conversation I walked you through earlier and then afterwards

1:06:55

like, Hey, let's, I'm going to keep learning some

1:06:57

more. And then I'll send them like,

1:06:59

like, I love your first episode

1:07:02

with Breedlove on, uh,

1:07:04

misconceptions. So good. I

1:07:06

share that in a few more, like the Parker

1:07:08

Lewis of Bitcoin's not a hedge, those sorts of

1:07:11

things. I send it to them and maybe a

1:07:13

copy of the Bitcoin standard, stuff like that. And

1:07:15

then it's inevitable that within a few months they

1:07:17

reach out and it's like, Hey Jim, can

1:07:19

we talk about maybe buying more Bitcoin? And then it's like,

1:07:21

Hey, I want to own this thing directly. I want to,

1:07:23

and we talked through like how to custody and all that

1:07:26

fun stuff. But for grandma's sake, like maybe you have time

1:07:28

to sit down with grandma and she trusts you to actually

1:07:30

sit down and it's like, all right, grandma, we're going to

1:07:32

hop on river and we're going to buy Bitcoin and move

1:07:34

it over to a cold card. She's

1:07:36

like, at that point you were buying

1:07:38

it with her money. Let's just admit it. That's what you're doing.

1:07:41

Maybe that's the case or grandma's not going to

1:07:43

own any and you're not going

1:07:45

to give her exposure at all because

1:07:48

you're too consumed with, she has to

1:07:50

own in the most pure way versus

1:07:52

like, look, just get your toes

1:07:54

in and I would rather go that

1:07:56

way. And maybe, maybe that's wrong with me, but it's

1:07:58

like, I'd rather have you. get your exposure

1:08:00

to some capacity, then just like, well, too bad until

1:08:02

you can really, and until you've got laser eyes max

1:08:04

that you're not going to own any of this. It's

1:08:06

like, I mean, I first stepped into this through

1:08:09

GBTC. Like, yeah, okay. But that forced

1:08:11

me to keep learning more. I think there's a lot

1:08:13

of people out there. I'm okay with that.

1:08:16

It can be such a turn off when

1:08:19

somebody's just willing to dip their toe in the

1:08:21

water. And you know,

1:08:23

some of us that have been around for a

1:08:25

while just start screaming from the mountain tops. No,

1:08:27

you're doing it all wrong. I mean, I'm guilty

1:08:29

as the next person. And

1:08:31

I think it's really important for

1:08:33

us collectively as a community to

1:08:36

just, I guess, be deeply

1:08:38

empathetic to everybody that's showing up for

1:08:40

the first time. Most people are just

1:08:42

so dang busy just trying to fight

1:08:44

the fiat system, like their savings just

1:08:47

being sucked away from them and just not

1:08:49

having enough buying power and working three jobs

1:08:51

to like, they just don't

1:08:53

have time to deeply understand such a

1:08:55

complex problem. And we just need to

1:08:57

be empathetic to them and meet them

1:08:59

where they're at. Yeah. It

1:09:02

is funny. I feel like I do live in a

1:09:04

meme world. Like right now, like that meme of like,

1:09:06

wow, that's crazy. Hey, did you catch the game last

1:09:08

night? Yeah. You know, that

1:09:10

is frustrating. But just recognizing

1:09:12

like, yeah, that was me once. Like, wow, that's

1:09:15

crazy. Yeah. That was me. Or like the one

1:09:17

of they're at the party and it's like, they

1:09:19

don't even know. I feel like that every time

1:09:21

Bitcoin's pumping, I'm like walking the sidewalk and it's

1:09:23

like in my head. I'm the guy

1:09:26

at the party. They don't even know that Bitcoin's pumping

1:09:28

or they don't even know that the dollar's trash. So...

1:09:31

Lynn uses that one a lot. She uses that

1:09:33

one really well. Yeah. In

1:09:35

my head, I'm like, wow, I'm a walking meme. But

1:09:40

I think those are, they can be very

1:09:43

punctual ways of highlighting problems

1:09:46

or solutions. But we need

1:09:48

to be aware of how we're using those tools.

1:09:52

I love the one. I think it's Lynn

1:09:54

who shares this one pretty often. It's the

1:09:56

Morpheus of what you're saying. So you're saying

1:09:58

that one day I'll be able to sell my Bitcoin. for millions,

1:10:00

know what I'm saying is when

1:10:02

you're able to, you won't have to,

1:10:04

whatever. I love that. And

1:10:07

you could pull that out and be like, what are you

1:10:09

talking about? But it's using it in good

1:10:11

ways. We've got a Swiss

1:10:13

army knife of means and

1:10:16

education. Understand how to use

1:10:18

it. You're trying to go in there and help somebody to

1:10:20

get a splinter out or whatever. You're not trying to go

1:10:22

and stab them and shank them to death. I think that's

1:10:24

what happens a lot. People walk away hurt and

1:10:27

bitter because they were just shanked a bunch.

1:10:30

And it's like, why didn't you listen? It's like,

1:10:32

well, man, use the tools you have to help

1:10:34

not to poke too much. There's a place of...

1:10:36

There are people like the financial planners, I poke

1:10:38

a lot because sometimes they just need to

1:10:41

be poked. But most people, they just need to come in and it's like, hey, come

1:10:43

here, I need to... Let me help you get this thing off you. I

1:10:46

think I'm going to title this one,

1:10:48

What is Causing Clown World and Bitcoin's

1:10:51

Solution with Jim Crider. Jim,

1:10:53

this was a blast. Really,

1:10:55

really enjoyed this. Just enjoy

1:10:57

being a friend of yours. You are such

1:11:00

a great person and somebody that I really

1:11:02

admire in the space. And

1:11:04

I appreciate you making time to come on the show

1:11:06

and have this chat. Yeah.

1:11:08

Thank you for... Give people a hand off

1:11:11

to your financial services. I'm

1:11:13

on Twitter. It's at Jim

1:11:15

Crider TX is in Texas, my

1:11:18

financial planning company. I worked specifically

1:11:20

for the first two years, I didn't allow

1:11:22

anyone over the age of 45. So

1:11:25

only young families. Last spring,

1:11:28

I started allowing older people,

1:11:30

traditional we'll call them. And

1:11:32

then right now, I'm actually heavily pushing.

1:11:34

I'll take younger clients, but I'm actually

1:11:36

really pushing heavily into more traditional retirees

1:11:39

and pre-retirement because of frustrations. Seeing like,

1:11:41

third one pretty much anywhere else, they're going to

1:11:43

be thrown in a 60s, 40 portfolio and totally

1:11:45

ignored on this stuff. So because of that, it's

1:11:47

like, my parents actually were the catalyst. They need

1:11:49

a new financial planner. I couldn't find anyone to

1:11:51

help them. It's like, fine, I'll work with them.

1:11:53

And if I can't send my parents somewhere else,

1:11:55

how can I in good conscience send other people

1:11:57

somewhere else? Anyways, then if you

1:11:59

want to... throw a little bit on my

1:12:01

calendar. It's my website is, it's a mouthful. It's

1:12:03

Intentional Living FP as in financial planning. So intentionallivingfp.com.

1:12:06

My calendar is there. Happy to chat even if

1:12:08

it's just like, hey, I have a quick question.

1:12:10

Yeah, like that's what I do. It would help.

1:12:14

Love it. We'll have a link in the show notes for

1:12:16

people to just click on that and link up

1:12:18

with you. And again, thank you so much, Jim.

1:12:21

This was a blast. Yeah, thanks

1:12:23

Preston. If you

1:12:25

guys enjoyed this conversation, be sure to

1:12:27

follow the show on whatever podcast application

1:12:29

you use. Just search for We Study

1:12:31

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1:12:33

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1:12:35

you as a regular listener. If

1:12:37

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1:12:40

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1:12:42

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1:12:44

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