0:00

You're. Listening to T I P.

0:03

Hey. Everyone will come to this Wednesday's release

0:05

of the Bitcoin Fundamentals podcast. This.

0:08

This episode is brought to you

0:10

by FX's Feud, Capote vs. the

0:12

Swans. Inspired by actual events, the

0:14

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Capote and the women he betrayed.

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Stream on Hulu. Well.

0:38

Today's gas is none other than

0:40

Mister John Perkins, who's a noteworthy

0:42

author. And the author of these

0:45

books called confessions of an economic Hitman.

0:48

For. People not familiar with John

0:50

He writes in gory detail all

0:52

the ways that these strategies took

0:54

place all around the world because

0:57

he was an economic hitman actually

0:59

executing these strategies on half of

1:01

government entities. This. Interview

1:03

was so mind blowing and something that

1:06

you've just gotta share with anybody that's

1:08

interested in understanding how this entire field

1:10

scheme has been played for the past

1:12

half century. During. The Interview: My

1:14

good friend Nicola Chew gum. Who's.

1:17

A big fan of John's work. accompany

1:19

me on a asking questions and part

1:21

of the discussion. So. Without

1:23

further delay, here's my chat with

1:25

Mister John Perkins. Celebrating

1:30

ten years you are listening

1:32

to Bitcoin Fundamentals by the

1:34

Investors Podcast net lacks now

1:36

for your highest priced in

1:39

this. Hey.

1:48

Everyone welcome to the show! I'm here

1:50

with John Perkins and Nico a Sugar

1:53

and John. I have to start off,

1:55

I read a lot of books. This.

1:57

Book has to be in my town. Books

1:59

I've read in the past five years. And

2:02

anybody who's listening to the show I'm just

2:04

I'm this. Start off the show. You have

2:07

to read this book. Because. It's

2:09

so profound. Especially with everything that's

2:11

happening in the world right now. For

2:13

people that are not doubt and or haven't

2:15

read your books this is where I can

2:18

one start this conversation john as just what

2:20

isn't economic hitman. How did you

2:22

become one? Really, just kind of start

2:24

with the basic for maybe somebody that's not familiar with

2:26

your work. Okay, prison for

2:29

as long as my make sure This others three

2:31

is a trilogy of economic hitmen but I presume

2:33

you're talking about the latest one which deals with

2:35

guess I was a month Get men, get us.

2:38

Okay, Yeah. This event? The

2:40

New Confessions of an economic hitman. Of

2:42

this test the second in the this survey

2:45

sent from it is a third when they

2:47

came out insists Nico Nico has that covers.

2:50

It was the third one. yeah to Sarah. Okay,

2:53

so an economic hitman. My

2:56

masters title was a Chief Economist

2:58

or major International Consulting for a

3:00

month span of anywhere from thirty

3:02

to fifty people working for me,

3:04

depending on. The specific and

3:07

in and projects. And

3:09

majeure really was to identify countries

3:11

and have resources or corporations. Lot

3:13

like a loyal is where I

3:15

usually the lower what we call

3:18

lower income or developing countries. And.

3:20

Then I went there arrange alone.

3:23

For. Their country and from the World Bank

3:25

for comfort from a lot of money. But.

3:27

The money would actually go to the country. Instead.

3:30

It would be transferred from a bank

3:32

and probably in Washington D, C or

3:34

New York. Do. A big construction

3:37

companies bank like the Best Halliburton or

3:39

better O'brien Rude or Star Webster it

3:41

you probably know the names yes sir

3:44

and companies and would make a lot

3:46

of my building big infrastructure projects in

3:48

the country and is in identified. Things.

3:51

Like electric power systems.

3:53

Industrial. Parks Highways,

3:56

For. Us Air Force. Things.

3:58

that we could show with help grow

4:00

the economy. You mentioned the economy

4:02

by GDP. And so originally

4:05

when I took on this job, I thought, you

4:07

know, like I'm doing something really good here, helping,

4:09

you know, helping these countries

4:11

become more prosperous. But

4:13

over time, I began to realize that really

4:15

what we were doing was making the rich

4:17

of those countries richer and more

4:20

powerful and helping our own corporations to

4:22

make a lot of money because in

4:24

the people that benefit it were the

4:27

rich who owned the big industries and

4:29

the commercial establishments, the

4:31

businesses that benefited tremendously from

4:34

better infrastructure. And

4:36

yet the majority of the people in the

4:38

country who were involved in these kinds of

4:40

activities ended up suffering because

4:42

money was diverted from healthcare,

4:45

education, and other social

4:47

services to pay the interest on

4:50

the debt. And but,

4:52

you know, that's not obvious. Yeah. When

4:55

you show the statistics of gross

4:57

domestic product GDP growth, it looks

4:59

like everybody's benefiting. The fact is

5:01

GDP is an extremely biased statistic,

5:03

biased toward the rich and powerful.

5:06

And, you know, the other side of this

5:08

coin was that if

5:10

the president of the country or

5:13

the Minister of Finance or whoever I was dealing with

5:16

didn't accept these loans, they were very

5:18

aware that there were people in the

5:20

background we call jackals who were usually

5:22

CIA assets who were prepared to overthrow

5:25

that government or assassinate someone. And, you

5:27

know, unfortunately, the United States has a

5:30

long history of this with Allende and

5:32

Chile and Arbenz and Guatemala and Mosaddeck

5:34

and Iran and the Mumbai

5:36

and the Congress on the Xi'an

5:39

and in Vietnam and most recently

5:41

as a lie in Honduras in

5:43

2009 where we've actually instituted

5:45

these practices of overthrowing or

5:47

assassinating leaders. And so these

5:50

presidents know this, you know, so basically what

5:52

I'm saying is, hey, given

5:54

this time I got a whole lot

5:56

of money that's going to help you and your

5:58

family and your friends. But if you choose

6:00

not to take this money in this town, I got a gun. I

6:03

never actually carried a gun, but these presidents knew what

6:05

I was talking about, that there were people behind me

6:07

that did carry guns. Yeah. When

6:09

I was reading it, the so what, like

6:12

if I had to really compress what I

6:14

experienced after finishing the book, it

6:16

was very simply, it was

6:19

your job was to get

6:21

other countries, other businesses, individuals,

6:24

and get up to their eyeballs as

6:26

much as possible to basically

6:28

force feed a dollar network effect

6:31

around the world. Would

6:33

you say that that's properly characterized based on?

6:37

Yeah, it's what's called the debt trap. And it's,

6:39

you know, it's the new, most convenient

6:42

and successful form of imperialism, building

6:44

an empire. And this empire is

6:46

really a corporate empire, more than

6:48

an American empire. Because

6:50

let's face it Preston, many of

6:52

these corporations, when they prosper,

6:55

they don't help the United States. They don't

6:57

help the citizens here. They don't pay taxes.

6:59

They may be listed as US corporations, but

7:01

as we all know, a very large percentage

7:03

of the most profitable Fortune

7:06

500 corporations don't pay taxes. And

7:09

yeah, I did also want to mention that, you

7:11

know, so when these countries couldn't pay the principal

7:13

on the debt, then the,

7:15

I go back in using the guise of

7:17

the International Monetary Fund and say, hey, we

7:19

can help you refinance your loan. But

7:22

to do that, you've got to meet

7:24

certain conditionalities. You've got to sell

7:26

your oil or whatever the resource was. And today

7:29

it's likely to be lithium or cobalt or some

7:31

of the minerals that are used in the high

7:33

tech industry. You've got to

7:35

sell these to our corporations that cut

7:37

rate prices without environmental or social regulations.

7:40

Or vote with us on the next vote

7:42

against Cuba at the United Nations, for example.

7:45

Or let us build a military base on your soil.

7:48

Or privatize all your public sector businesses,

7:50

your water and sewage systems and so

7:53

forth, and sell them to our investors

7:55

at low prices. Well, maybe all

7:57

of those things. And so, yes,

7:59

we were really building. building this corporate

8:01

empire and at the same time an

8:03

economic system that's really failing us, what

8:05

we call a death economy that's causing

8:07

climate change, that's causing a lot of

8:11

unrest around the world. John,

8:13

I have a question on that. So

8:15

the economic imperialism thing, like, rung so

8:17

true of what you were constructing. My

8:20

question is, at the beginning when

8:22

you're constructing these loans, would you have

8:25

already modeled out the additional loans based

8:27

on the country defaulting that we're going

8:29

to be taking and then the courses

8:31

of action that you were going to

8:33

take from an economic imperialism standpoint of

8:35

the military base or the taking some

8:37

of the production of the assets from

8:39

that country, was this already kind

8:42

of pre-planned four, five, six steps out?

8:45

Yeah, it's a strategy. So

8:47

it's defined as, in

8:49

the case of the minerals, they're the collateral.

8:52

So you give the loan to a country like, let's

8:54

say, Ecuador. It's got

8:57

a lot of oil out in their very fragile Amazon

8:59

area. And

9:02

you give them a big loan and you use

9:04

their oil that's still in the ground as collateral.

9:07

So when they can't pay their debt, you

9:09

go back in and say, now, okay, so now you

9:12

can let our oil companies come in and take that

9:14

oil at very cheap prices without any

9:16

regulations. And when

9:18

you're going forward with doing this, you're pretty aware

9:20

that the country is not going to be able

9:22

to pay back these debts. But

9:25

they are going to be able to show this economic note. So

9:28

the president is in an interesting

9:30

position because he's being handed this

9:32

report that we've done that

9:34

shows that if he takes on these

9:36

loans, the economy will grow and it

9:39

probably will. And he can take that to

9:41

the local press and to his

9:43

people and it can be a very popular thing. Oh

9:46

my goodness, you know, this president has done great

9:48

things. He's building all these highways. Look at how

9:50

the roads have improved. I was just in Ecuador,

9:53

one of the countries where I did this and

9:55

I just saw, you know, incredible road construction and

9:57

now most of the Chinese are playing the same

9:59

thing. game as we are. So they're doing the same

10:01

thing. They're building hydroelectric plants and

10:04

mines and so forth. And this

10:06

can look very, very good on paper

10:08

to the people. And let's

10:10

face it, presidents, even under the best

10:12

conditions, don't serve for more than, usually

10:15

more than eight years, possibly 10 in

10:18

most countries. And often, it's a lot

10:20

fewer than that. Robert Leonard

10:22

And then on that point, so the economic growth,

10:24

I think you hit on the electrical systems in

10:27

your first book, and then you hit on the

10:29

Chinese construction of dams and roads in

10:31

the third book, and this economic

10:33

imperialism. Can you walk us

10:35

through, when you're putting together these models, how

10:38

much of the debt? So let's say I

10:40

take out $10 in debt, how much of

10:43

that debt would you expect to come

10:45

back to Western countries? Like through programs

10:47

with Hal Burton and Bechtel versus

10:49

how much money is staying in that country? Robert

10:52

Leonard The money itself, all

10:54

of it plus interest, then

10:57

plus more comes back because the

10:59

construction company, you mentioned Hal Burton, let's

11:01

say, is making big profits off this,

11:03

which theoretically some of it comes back

11:06

to the United States. Although

11:08

Hal Burton now is, I think

11:10

officially, their headquarters is in Dubai,

11:12

but notwithstanding that.

11:15

And the banks are very insistent that

11:17

these loans ultimately get repaid in one

11:19

way or another. And

11:21

at the same time, the oil

11:24

is now being ciphered off or whatever

11:26

the resources out of the country to

11:28

the US or international, it's called an

11:30

international oil companies. So they're

11:33

not making money off that either

11:35

very much. So the whole system

11:37

is very, very rate. What

11:39

the country does show is that

11:42

it's experienced economic growth as a

11:44

result. But again,

11:46

most of that economic growth, it

11:48

benefits the very wealthy and powerful

11:50

in those countries. And in

11:53

so many of these countries in Africa

11:55

and in Latin America and elsewhere, you

11:57

know, very few families essentially control the

11:59

economy. economies of these countries and these

12:01

families go back to very long time ago

12:04

to colonial periods in Latin America, for example.

12:07

Most of these countries have families who

12:10

were given these incredible land grants,

12:12

their ancestors who were generals under

12:14

the Spanish conquistadores, under Cortez, with

12:16

Rosaro or one of the other

12:19

conquistadores who gave them huge amounts

12:21

of land and

12:24

their families still have tremendous power within

12:26

these countries. So they benefit significantly.

12:30

John, one of the things that I

12:32

think is lost on a lot of

12:34

listeners of our community is just how

12:36

this relationship with the IMF and the

12:38

World Bank works in

12:41

harmony with this US

12:43

agenda to push dollar dominance around

12:45

the world through this indebtedness. So if

12:48

you were going to explain that relationship very simply

12:50

for people to kind of be able to wrap

12:52

their head around it because I think people are

12:54

familiar with the word IMF or World Bank and

12:57

they know that they're out there but they just

12:59

don't understand how they fit into the bigger picture.

13:02

Well, those organizations are all part of

13:04

what we call the Washington Consensus, just

13:07

to make it even a little bit more complicated. So it's

13:09

the World Bank, the sister

13:11

organizations, the Inter-American Development Bank,

13:14

the Asian Development Bank, the US

13:16

Treasury Department. But basically,

13:19

this would be a scenario. So USAID,

13:21

United States Agency for International

13:24

Development, sets aside a small

13:26

amount of money. In my day,

13:28

it would be several hundred thousand dollars now, it's probably a

13:30

couple of million. And it's

13:32

a grant to our country. Let's

13:35

stick with this case of Ecuador since we

13:37

started there. There could be so many different

13:40

countries. And that's this grant

13:42

is used to hire my company, the

13:44

consulting firm, to go in and

13:46

do a study and say the World Bank

13:48

is interested in giving a huge amount of

13:50

money to this country, Ecuador. My

13:53

job is to go in and make a study of

13:55

where that money should be spent. Should

13:57

it go into developing the electrical system? During

14:00

hydro electric facilities and transmission lines or

14:02

maybe should on the highway is. For.

14:05

Ports are Air Force. Items. Or

14:07

sustained assist. The best investment would

14:09

be a huge hydroelectric plants. And

14:12

all the transmission lines to go along with

14:14

as an example. And as I

14:16

would he have been in that this and

14:19

I'm sorry to interrupt you so in that

14:21

scenario but say that when they were ultimately

14:23

after was oil or some type of like

14:25

natural resource and you're looking at the the

14:27

set up inside this country in the say

14:29

they don't have a lot of power so

14:31

step one as we gotta get power into

14:33

the countries of it then they can extract

14:35

this rock commodity they were actually interested in

14:37

in year ten from our year Fifteen or

14:39

twenty or whatever. So. I'm assuming

14:42

that that there was like a much

14:44

bigger, grander strategy. With. Respect to

14:46

this. The. Timing of like how

14:48

you guys did this. Were you part

14:50

of that orchestrating math? Or were you

14:52

a little bit more granular in. Are

14:55

just the power like you admit been told?

14:57

Let's let's go after power inside this country.

15:00

I. Wouldn't know. I would know

15:02

been implemented good at my job. I know

15:04

that the as part of this is exactly

15:07

what you're suggesting. And so chances are

15:09

this hydroelectric plant that worried that risk that

15:11

we're getting them that we're going back to

15:13

the World Bank to say give this country

15:15

a large amount of money to hire are

15:17

com is the role I do electorate my

15:19

chances are. The hydroelectric plant

15:21

is I need Amazonian area

15:23

where the waterfalls, rivers rivers

15:26

rivers are best puts kobe

15:28

headwaters of the Amazon the

15:30

sacred headwaters area. And

15:32

that's where the oil happens to be revealed.

15:34

Hydroelectric plant your also building big roads get

15:37

a construction with to me in their bridge

15:39

is no be a big benefit to the.

15:42

Trouble is also. Told the

15:44

others that there is that a pet that sort

15:46

of thing that often does are not always. Anyway,

15:49

So I go back to the country with

15:52

this the study of as a sub scare

15:54

you do with this study the World Bank

15:56

is is willing to give you this very

15:59

large loans and. You but you have

16:01

to sign off on and use oil is your

16:03

collateral. And so the President

16:05

says Wonder Woman Texas of the People and

16:07

gives his report to the local newspaper. isn't

16:09

says you know I personally wander in, maybe

16:11

he's eating I have a referendum and the

16:14

people that say yes over by dust assume

16:16

shows of our economy's going to grow It.

16:19

As a present here and as I there

16:21

has been going on last year's years. We.

16:23

Got hyperinflation which which they get rid of

16:26

that has report which opened up. And

16:28

so then. Then the money is

16:30

diverted to be construction company in the

16:32

United States that say what one of

16:34

the big muslim it mentioned earlier. Make

16:37

good on builder fill the project

16:39

and meanwhile the country's name. The.

16:42

Interest on the law and then

16:44

to bring money from social services

16:46

or other programs to pay the

16:48

interest. But. In the end

16:50

of the catholic pay the principles

16:53

and so your budget. Remember the

16:55

collateral as low as a loyal

16:57

yes assets some hours max start

16:59

taking oil. Oh and also

17:01

and that novices romeo and as the

17:03

I am out was his cab or

17:06

you might fall the policing force behind

17:08

okay he roll back to the internet

17:10

and wrong by. And are

17:12

we doing is the I am as we

17:14

say. Yeah, well and you get me, some

17:16

of these are the conditionalities. It let us

17:18

build a military business or less exactly what

17:21

happened in one point in Ecuador. For example,

17:23

built the Sewage knows Her at Us military

17:25

base. On the coast of

17:27

Ecuador and on and on so it's

17:29

better. Scenario starts with a glance country

17:31

has enough to pay for from us

17:34

bureau said it's them loose ends of

17:36

alone and then it moves into the

17:38

conditionalities to restructure the loan. To

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T.com. Or right. Back.

20:25

To the show. Can you walk us

20:27

through at it was a a the books

20:29

out how the I am as kind of

20:31

works as as backstops are allowed to get

20:34

like the listeners is to understand that if

20:36

western lenders the on the World Bank a

20:38

reply these loans are doing these laws to

20:40

developing countries. And are concerned about the

20:42

credit worthy. As like this was it seemed like a

20:44

machine that you had created or that you are a

20:46

part of L A you could replicate time and time

20:49

again. But. It seems like the I

20:51

M F was that backstop that would com

20:53

and restructure those loans and make sure that

20:55

the western lenders were always made on our

20:57

lawn so and you could read repeat over

20:59

and over again. In. The country up

21:01

to it's eyeballs and death. Yeah

21:04

uses gonna Bury Room Nicola nominal

21:06

is there's more specific question I

21:08

did you hear about I use

21:10

them on the. I

21:13

was more to has more curious of like the

21:15

lenders and sorry the lenders and the I am.

21:17

As for Lacy said. That the

21:19

understandably I'm of is always gonna stop and

21:21

or in this side the scenario and kind

21:24

of how is that working relationship of. Assassinating

21:26

from your seat of your actually on the

21:28

ground and were just observing this from really

21:30

your words. In

21:33

his financial institutions. I

21:35

know the school be the case and in and

21:37

the before they make been mates alone in the

21:39

apollo the checked in with the i am as

21:41

make sure that the country that there. Will.

21:43

Be doing this move them he may be probably

21:46

already know this allows but they won't make sure

21:48

that rather doing this as a country where they

21:50

are noom of will step in and the maybe

21:52

some countries where they wouldn't happen. And.

21:54

If they would make the loans, most countries. So.

21:57

There is. This is a small Boy

21:59

Network Barrel. Each other very well

22:01

and. And the If the various

22:03

levels of of these organizations and they

22:05

they communicate with each other. Treatment by.

22:08

John. It seems like when I look

22:10

at interest rates since the early eighties,

22:12

they've just continued to go down up

22:15

until cove It And I think that

22:17

that continual step down in advanced economies

22:19

of interest rates going lower and lower.

22:22

Ah, Help mask everything that was happening

22:24

because as they rolled the Dad, they

22:26

were able to roll it at a

22:28

lower interest rate. which just seem like

22:30

we're kicking this principle further and further.

22:32

If you can't repay it, will them.

22:34

Orders will negotiate the commodities are they

22:37

the military base or whatever. But I

22:39

think it was almost like a tailwind

22:41

for them to have these interest rates

22:43

going lower and lower. I'm curious if

22:45

you agree with that. He. And

22:47

more importantly, for where we're at right

22:49

now moving forward, it almost seems like

22:51

they're not going to be able to

22:54

get inflation under control on advanced economies

22:56

right now. In Does this cause this

22:58

entire economic hitman model to really start

23:00

to blow up in the face of

23:03

these advanced economies? As

23:05

he covered her questions or that it's a it's

23:07

be observed first one is the lower interest rates.

23:10

Does help. I. Think because suddenly the

23:12

banks are in a position or the economic

23:14

hitman or a position to go to countries

23:16

and says a lot period as rates pretty

23:18

low you can afford to smoke very many

23:20

couldn't afford it before and a higher interest.

23:22

but now with the lower interest rates as

23:24

a business the time. To. Do this

23:27

and as as you do take out to be alone.

23:29

Are. Your ideas? the regular analogy with a

23:31

home buyer and United States or zero interest

23:33

rates go down. The banks will tell them

23:35

out. It. On a server Three hundred

23:38

thousand dollar home you can for four hundred

23:40

thousand all along the transit users race a

23:42

lower. when interest rates go up you go

23:44

to bathroom or less expensive home. Same.

23:47

sort of thing. And is far as

23:49

the is into. the next person was

23:51

a the his interest rates are increasing to

23:54

receive the system blowing out Yeah does

23:56

that. Does this model really start to

23:58

get hard for them to country. role

24:00

and like we're seeing El Salvador

24:02

right now basically, you

24:04

Kaylee given the middle finger to

24:06

the IMF and World Bank and

24:08

adopted Bitcoin as a

24:10

new legal tender inside of the country. Like

24:13

I think that there's countries that

24:15

are starting to figure this out in

24:17

a very meaningful way. And

24:20

I'm just kind of curious if you would agree that

24:22

it's starting to unravel itself at this point. Well,

24:25

I think the biggest unraveling force

24:27

for the Washington consensus is China

24:30

because China steps in and will

24:32

may offer lower interest rates or

24:34

better deals in other

24:36

respects. Actually we can go

24:39

to Ecuador as an example when

24:41

Rafael Correa was elected president. I know

24:43

Correa very well. I was just recently

24:45

in Mexico City on a TV program

24:47

where he interviewed me. He

24:49

likes my books. He has a PhD

24:52

in economics from the University of Illinois.

24:54

Incidentally. He knows our system extremely well.

24:56

He was president of Ecuador for 10

24:58

years. And one of the first things he

25:00

did was to appoint a

25:02

commission to look into whether Ecuadorian

25:04

people really owed the money that

25:07

the World Bank and IMF said Ecuador

25:09

owed. And the commission concluded

25:11

that I think it was about $10

25:13

billion. I may have the number wrong, but

25:15

there was a lot of money that they said, no, the

25:18

Ecuadorian people don't owe this. This money

25:20

was taken out as a loan by

25:22

the military dictatorships back in the seventies

25:25

without the consent of the people. The

25:27

people didn't get any benefits. These

25:29

military dictators now are long gone. They're living

25:32

in Switzerland or Miami

25:34

or someplace. And maybe

25:36

they owe the money and Correa laughing. They

25:38

said, maybe John Perkins owes the money. He

25:41

was one of those economic children that was

25:43

here back then. But

25:45

the Ecuadorian people don't owe it. And he

25:47

refused to pay a fairly significant amount of

25:49

that in the billions of dollars.

25:52

And they're fought by the standard

25:55

and poor's and fitch ratings through

25:57

Ecuador entered the dump. They

26:00

basically said Ecuador is a worthless country.

26:03

Nobody should invest to go to Ecuador to do

26:05

anything. And immediately, the Chinese

26:07

stepped in and they gave Ecuador a

26:09

big loan, very low

26:11

interest rates that made it easy for Ecuador

26:14

to pay off the interest and the total

26:16

ratings run up and then China made

26:18

another loan. And as a result,

26:20

Pareya, who again has a PhD from

26:22

the US university in economics

26:26

through the United States law basically, and he closed

26:28

that. He did not renew the lease on this

26:30

huge military base. So the United States had to

26:32

move its military base from Ecuador to Columbia. He

26:35

went up against the United States and

26:38

embraced China. And so

26:40

now Ecuador has a lot of money as

26:42

a China and China's gone in and built

26:44

a huge dam, they're building big mines. They're

26:46

doing the same thing that

26:48

we were doing, except they've

26:50

offered some better conditions, Ecuador,

26:53

at least the conditions that appear

26:56

to be better, not

26:58

always what they appear to be. And

27:01

I will say one other thing here, that

27:03

China has an incredible

27:06

marketing tool. And

27:08

that is if they had about 10% economic

27:11

growth for 30 years,

27:14

they brought about 800 million people

27:17

out of poverty, they

27:19

increased the middle class tremendously.

27:22

That's the same time since the early 70s, the

27:24

United States has not had any real increase

27:27

in average minimum wage. If you take

27:29

a run into inflation since the 70s,

27:33

we've gone from 60% middle class

27:35

down to 50%. If you're

27:37

the president of a poor country, and

27:39

you're looking for an economic model, you're

27:42

probably very, very tempted to

27:45

look at the Chinese model, not

27:47

necessarily the political system, but

27:49

the economic model is a very impressive

27:51

one. John, on that,

27:53

do you see China running the same playbook as

27:56

the United States and other Western developed economies have

27:58

run to deal with the Chinese economy? that

28:00

have the backing of the World Bank and

28:02

the IMF? Or do you see China in

28:04

this type of scenario running kind of an

28:06

economic proxy war against the United States? It's

28:08

both, Nico. You know, I was

28:10

asked to teach at an MBA program

28:13

in Shanghai, which is mainly Chinese students

28:15

who had been singled out to

28:17

be the future leaders

28:19

of the economy of China. And

28:22

very quickly, I learned that the reason I'd been

28:24

invited was because these students wanted to pick my

28:26

brain as to what I had done that was

28:28

successful. What I was successful and what I'd done

28:30

that were failures. And they've done

28:32

an amazing job. They've been much

28:34

more efficient in some respects. They really have

28:36

learned from our mistakes and our successes. And

28:40

I talked in this latest book about the

28:42

four pillars of the economic hit-man strategy.

28:44

One of those is fear. You know,

28:47

fear, we talk about fear of Russia,

28:49

fear of China or whatever, and they

28:51

talk about fear of us or

28:54

fear of your neighbors. Another

28:56

one is death, which we've been discussing. And

28:59

the third one is anxiety over insufficiency. Oh,

29:01

you're a really, really poor country and we're

29:03

going to help you relieve that anxiety. We're

29:05

going to help you rise out of poverty.

29:08

And the last one is divide and conquer. And

29:11

China's made alterations in the way all

29:13

of those are approached. But

29:16

especially, they've made

29:18

a huge alteration in the last

29:20

one, divide and conquer. So

29:23

for example, when the United States would go

29:25

into a country like, let's move from Ecuador

29:27

to Peru, like Peru, for no

29:29

particular reason, but just because, yeah. Anyway,

29:32

so, and they would say

29:34

to Peru, hey, you know, let's, we'll

29:36

do this deal and we'll give you

29:38

most favored nation in our

29:40

trading agreement. So bilateral trade between Peru

29:42

and the United States will be really

29:45

good. China, on the other

29:47

hand, goes and says, we're not interested in

29:49

bilateral trade. We're interested in connecting

29:51

you with the world. The new

29:53

Silk Road, the Belt and

29:55

Road Initiative. And so Peru, we're

29:57

going to, we're going to build you these power plants.

29:59

going to do basically the same thing the United States would

30:02

do, but we're also going to build you a big port

30:04

so you're going to be connected with

30:06

Africa and Asia and

30:08

Europe. And it's not just

30:10

about China and Peru, it's about where can

30:12

I help Peru become a world integrated

30:15

with the world on a commercial basis.

30:18

And that's huge. Countries really like

30:21

that. Oh, and incidentally, we're

30:23

not going to ever try to influence your

30:26

policies, your government policies. We're not going

30:28

to build a military base and China

30:31

hasn't built military bases in very many

30:33

places other than in its own sphere

30:35

of influence with a couple of exceptions

30:38

like Djibouti where it

30:40

refuels its ships that go around African

30:42

Horn and so forth. But

30:44

it doesn't have a military preference. And they say,

30:46

we're not going to build a military base here.

30:48

We're not going to ask you to privatize your

30:50

industries and sell them to our people. We're not

30:53

going to ask you to vote with us in

30:55

the United Nations vote, which isn't entirely

30:57

true because they do expect these countries

30:59

to side with them on the Taiwan

31:01

issue. But they seem

31:03

less draconian. And

31:05

let's face it, there's a tremendous amount

31:08

of resentment against the United

31:10

States and our European allies and

31:12

the World Bank because of the

31:14

way we've imposed our will on

31:16

countries. And we've been

31:18

willing to overthrow democratically elected

31:21

presidents like Ayende and Abend.

31:23

And we've backed terrible dictatorships

31:26

like Pinochet and

31:28

Chile and many others. One

31:32

of the stories that really stuck out to

31:34

me in the book, it was somewhat early

31:36

on you were talking about you were just

31:38

implementing a lot of these field reports and

31:40

coming up with the various models. And there

31:42

was a person that I forget which country

31:45

it was, but there was a person who

31:47

was working on a report that was estimating

31:49

that the growth would be like 10%. And

31:53

your boss was like, that's not enough. It needs

31:55

to be juicier than that. And you were like,

31:57

oh, well, I could come up with a model

31:59

that does. 20% or basically

32:01

double what the other person was doing. And

32:04

the other person was very hesitant to adjust their model.

32:07

And because you were able to not only

32:09

expand it, but do it in a way

32:11

that was really backed up with what appeared

32:13

to be a lot of evidence, like

32:16

you were promoted immediately. And

32:18

this behavior of trying to get

32:20

the country in as much debt

32:22

as possible by sensationalizing a lot

32:24

of the reporting and the numbers

32:27

was just somewhat mind

32:29

blowing to me that this was

32:31

the incentive structure that you were

32:34

dealing with. Can you talk

32:36

about just some of the mechanics

32:38

of this and how other people

32:40

that were doing similar jobs as

32:42

yourself really kind of talk

32:44

to the incentive structure that was behind all of

32:47

this? Yes, that's

32:49

a really good point, Preston. Yeah,

32:51

you're talking about my relationship with

32:53

a guy named Howard Parker who's...

32:56

Yes. And he

32:59

was very old school and

33:01

we're looking at electrical growth and if you

33:03

could show that the economy was

33:05

going to grow by let's say 12% if

33:07

the electrical

33:09

growth went up by 9% or 10%.

33:13

And Howard would say, well, and he'd

33:15

worked for a utility industry all of his

33:17

life retired as very high up executive of

33:19

a major US utility company and then gone

33:21

to work for our consulting firm. He'd say,

33:23

well, the United States has never

33:25

been electrical growth of more than 6% a

33:28

year anyway. And I would

33:30

say, yes, but if you

33:32

get to suppress demand, if

33:35

you build these facilities and you have the electricity

33:37

bill, people will buy it. They just can't get

33:39

it now. That's why the growth is so low.

33:42

So I believe that what I was

33:44

saying was correct and my

33:46

boss very hardly was pushing me to

33:48

make these much higher forecasts than Howard

33:50

would make. And I thought

33:52

it was correct. And

33:54

I think, and I also, I come out

33:57

of the Peace Corps and

33:59

I was... steeped in this idea

34:01

that we could really help poor

34:03

countries rise out of poverty.

34:06

And you know, I was, I'd been

34:09

to business school where I saw these

34:11

econometric models that show this relationship between

34:13

infrastructure growth and GDP growth and I

34:15

thought GDP growth was a good measure

34:17

at that time. It took me quite

34:19

a long time to realize that GDP

34:21

growth is basically a

34:23

tool of the rich. It's

34:25

a poor statistic if you want to

34:28

measure true prosperity. Yes. We have a

34:30

friend, Alan Farrington, and this is like

34:32

one of his favorite talking points is

34:34

bashing how terrible GDP is. It's like

34:37

listening to him go down that path

34:39

is amazing. I'll

34:43

leave it at that. But yes,

34:45

it's a lie as far as

34:47

measuring overall prosperity is concerned. And

34:49

you know, I think there's a

34:51

tremendous number of people in this industry

34:54

today working for the World Bank or

34:56

whoever that really believe they're doing the

34:58

right thing. And at the top,

35:00

I think they got to know the

35:02

truth behind it. I believed for a

35:04

long time that I was doing the right thing. And

35:07

I have to tell you that once I

35:09

started to understand I wasn't and this, I

35:11

was helped in this very much by the

35:13

head of state of Panama, Omar Torrijos, who

35:16

understood the system and told me,

35:18

John, don't you understand that what you're, you're lying

35:20

to yourself and you're telling all the rest of

35:22

us a lie. Once I really

35:24

understood that, I didn't want to believe it. I

35:26

was making a lot of money. I came

35:28

to, you know, relatively poor teachers.

35:31

I was a poor teacher's son

35:33

in New Hampshire. We weren't barbing

35:35

or impoverished, but I never left

35:37

New England until I joined the

35:39

Peace Corps. And now

35:41

I'm traveling first class all

35:43

over the world, lining and dining

35:45

in the best restaurants and staying in

35:48

the finest hotels and, you know,

35:50

hanging out with president. I

35:53

didn't want to give that up. So once

35:55

I began to understand the fallacy of the

35:57

system, I didn't want to understand it. I

35:59

want to. the faults or the line

36:01

that everybody was out there promoting. And

36:03

I think there's an awful lot of people in

36:05

that situation today. You know, we all

36:08

lie to ourselves at one level or

36:10

another but, you know, I can

36:12

just, I don't drive out much.

36:15

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40:02

right, back to the show. No,

40:06

I think it just speaks so much to your

40:08

character to be able to hear

40:11

the other side of the argument and then you talk

40:13

about this so well in the book and I love

40:15

the way that you show this

40:17

struggle as you're discovering this and you're having

40:19

these conversations with other people when you are

40:21

trying to understand the other side of

40:24

the impact of what's happening. And

40:27

I just find it so profound

40:29

to speak to your character, to

40:31

then have the courage to

40:34

write and explain your point

40:36

of view to the world whether people want

40:38

to side with you or

40:40

not. I just think it's so profound

40:43

and I think it's just so courageous of you

40:45

and I think Nico's got the next question. So

40:47

go ahead Nico. John,

40:49

I had a real big question on this and I feel

40:51

like it was, I think there's

40:53

a seminal moment in US economic imperialism

40:56

that you hit on in all the

40:58

books and this is the deal with

41:01

Saudi Arabia and the

41:03

transition to a petrodollar and

41:05

Saudi buying US Treasuries. I

41:07

would love if you can just

41:10

simply walk through for all the

41:12

listeners that deal and the petrodollar

41:15

post that. Yeah, that was

41:17

quite, yeah. So the context is

41:19

the early seven days when Saudi,

41:22

so OPEC which was led by Saudi

41:24

Arabia and Saudi Arabia was the biggest

41:26

oil producer in the world had a

41:28

lot of clout and did not like what

41:31

was going on with Israel and our support

41:33

of Israel and Israel defeating

41:36

their world in many respects. And

41:39

so there was an oil embargo imposed against the

41:41

United States and you guys are probably too young

41:43

to remember it in person but

41:45

I do very well. And you know long

41:47

lines at the gas stations and our economy

41:49

was in a nosedive and

41:52

it looked very, very serious. Without

41:54

oil what are we going to do? And we

41:56

were very, very dependent on imported oil. So

41:59

the Treasury Department comes to me and

42:01

others at my company and they said, you

42:03

know, we can't let this happen again, do

42:05

something. I go off to

42:07

Saudi Arabia with several of my assistants and people

42:10

who work for me and set

42:12

up an office there and the State

42:14

Department, I mean the Treasury Department signed

42:16

a very large contract with my company

42:18

to develop the electrical system

42:20

in that country also. But

42:23

we had to work out a deal with the Saudis on

42:25

this whole thing and this wasn't about

42:27

debt because Saudi Arabia didn't need to borrow money

42:29

from anybody, they had the money. We

42:32

wanted them, we wanted their money and

42:34

we also wanted to have them beholden

42:36

to us so they couldn't put us,

42:38

they couldn't blackmail us again like they

42:40

had basically with the oil embargo.

42:42

So, we worked out this deal basically whereby

42:45

as you said, Saudi

42:47

Arabia would have to reinvest

42:49

most of their petro dollars

42:52

in US Treasuries and the

42:54

interest from those Treasuries bonds

42:56

would be used to pay US

42:59

corporations to essentially westernize Saudi Arabia

43:02

to build big cities that were

43:04

western type of cities to

43:06

build petrochemical plants and other industries

43:09

in Saudi Arabia. And

43:11

at the same time, part of the

43:13

deal was that Saudi Arabia would never

43:15

sell oil for anything other than

43:18

dollars. So, as you also mentioned, Nixon had

43:20

just taken us off the gold standard in

43:23

1971, I think, and

43:25

the dollar was floating out there,

43:27

it was rather nerve-wracking time and

43:30

so now suddenly on from the gold

43:32

standard, it truly is a petro dollar.

43:36

And so, the agreement was that

43:38

Saudi Arabia wouldn't sell oil for anything

43:40

other than dollars and

43:42

also they would never

43:45

charge more for oil than the

43:47

oil companies would ultimately be in

43:50

agreement with. And our part

43:52

of the deal was that we would protect

43:54

Saudi Arabia. As long as they kept

43:56

their part of the deal, we would always stand behind

43:58

them as we did during the Gulf War. boards and

44:00

both go forwards under both presidents Bush. And

44:03

as we did after 9-11 when we, you know,

44:06

hustled some of their family members out of the country

44:08

and on and on.

44:10

And this deal has been extremely

44:12

significant. We called it

44:14

the Saudi Arabia money

44:16

laundering affair. And Sam, it kind

44:18

of was a money laundering affair,

44:21

oil laundering affair. You know, it's

44:24

beginning to fall apart now. Yeah. And

44:26

partly because China is now, you know,

44:29

becoming such a strong entity and Saudi

44:31

Arabia does not want to lose a

44:34

customer and that ally. And so

44:36

they're, you know, they're wavering a little bit. And

44:38

the other thing is that the

44:40

Arab world has been very unhappy with the

44:42

way we've treated the Muslims and our stance

44:44

on in Israel. And

44:47

despite Saudi Arabia's fairly

44:49

good relationship with Israel, despite

44:51

all these other things, what

44:54

happened in Iraq and Afghanistan and

44:57

so on, you know, it's been

44:59

a thorn in the side of

45:01

the Islamic world. And

45:03

so there's a lot of factors here.

45:05

Like we in the United States hear

45:08

about how poorly China treats its Uyghur

45:10

people of the Muslim groups. But

45:12

in the Muslim world, yeah, they're concerned

45:14

about that, of course. But

45:16

they also know that China is,

45:19

China has sent armies into any Muslim

45:21

countries, as we have in

45:23

Afghanistan and Iraq and elsewhere. So

45:25

this old

45:30

deal that's lasted since the early 70s

45:32

until now and it's still

45:35

in effect, it's losing some of

45:37

its teeth. You

45:39

know what I find really fascinating right now, John, is

45:42

if you would take all the countries in the

45:44

world and list the net producers on one side

45:46

and the net consumers on the other side, what

45:49

you'll find is all the net producers

45:52

are the enemies or have

45:54

been in the media the enemies of

45:56

the United States. I

45:58

just find that really quite fascinating. fascinating. And

46:01

like when we look at, well, why are, why is

46:04

the U S at odds

46:06

with anybody that has excess

46:08

production out of their country?

46:11

And I think it kind of holds a

46:13

key to understanding what's playing out right now

46:15

with the breakdown of the, of the petrodollar

46:17

system. And I think that also when we're

46:20

looking at interest rates and how they were

46:22

literally compressed, I think we got to what

46:24

was it, Nika, maybe 18 trillion

46:26

of negative yielding debt in the world of

46:28

all these advanced economies. It was somewhere in

46:30

that ballpark. So we basically compressed

46:32

the yields to nothing. The prices were

46:34

sky high on all debt, leading

46:37

up to COVID in 2020. And now

46:39

it seems like all of this mathematically

46:41

is starting to unravel itself with the

46:43

treasury and the Saudis

46:46

pricing everything in dollars. It

46:48

seems like this entire agreement is falling apart

46:50

and it's like, well, where does, where does

46:52

this go next? I'm curious

46:54

if you have any just thoughts on this

46:57

idea of the net producers versus the net

46:59

consumers at odds with each other in the

47:01

world and maybe what the

47:03

root cause of a lot of this

47:05

is. I was one

47:07

of the co-authors of a book called the game

47:09

is old as empire. And that's what

47:11

this is really, you know, where it's

47:14

building empires. And one

47:16

of the biggest net producers, I think you'd

47:19

say is China. Yeah. Yeah.

47:22

Of course, China definitely is threatening

47:24

your hegemony. Is

47:27

China an enemy? I would

47:29

really like to think of China as a

47:31

competitor, but

47:33

not an enemy. And you know, we're

47:35

all suffering from climate change, but we

47:38

can't afford to have enemies. Let's face it. Wars

47:41

are just wars are part of the

47:43

destruction of the environment and part of

47:45

our problem today. We don't need to

47:47

define China as an enemy. It is

47:49

a competitor, but competition can be

47:51

good if it drives you to be better. And

47:54

I would like to think that we look at it that way, but

47:56

we don't. We know anybody that

47:58

comes along. It seems

48:01

that to possibly be better than

48:03

us at doing anything, we object

48:06

to. Back

48:08

in the 70s, we went through something a

48:10

little bit similar with Japan where Japan

48:12

was threatening us as, you know, they were

48:15

so efficient and they worked so hard and

48:17

they put in so many hours and they

48:19

were moving out of a period where we

48:21

said they'd produce junk products into one where

48:23

they produced quality products. They were leaders in

48:25

quality. That was concerning to

48:27

us but Japan was a fairly small country,

48:29

it didn't have much of a military or

48:31

no military. It wasn't a

48:33

real threat. China now, they come along

48:36

and it's got this amazing economy and

48:39

it's also militarily very, very

48:42

imposing and impressive. And

48:44

so, and there's no question I think that

48:46

China wants to take over. They

48:49

would like to replace the dollar with the

48:51

UN or something. They don't want

48:53

to do it too quickly because we owe them

48:55

a lot of money so they don't want to

48:57

see it resolve or collapse because that'd be very

48:59

harmful to them. Plus, there's such an

49:01

interrelationship between China and the United

49:04

States and Europe, our NATO

49:06

allies, the European Union in

49:08

terms of trade, in terms of finance, in terms

49:10

of so many things that

49:12

China's being has to be

49:15

relatively careful and yet clearly,

49:18

they want to be the main

49:20

superpower. And

49:23

they're headed in that direction. And so, the

49:25

United States is strongly opposing it. And

49:28

I think that's probably a smart move on the part

49:30

of it but I think the idea of demonizing

49:33

them or seeing them as

49:36

an enemy in some sort of a war

49:38

or defining it as even defining it

49:41

as an economic war to me

49:44

is a big mistake. It is

49:46

a strong competition. We are extremely

49:48

competitive with China and they're competitive

49:50

with us. That can

49:52

be a good thing though, competition. I like to

49:55

think of when I was in school, I was

49:57

a pretty good tennis player and I

49:59

was always biased. Into the number one spot on

50:01

our team. I was your your number two

50:03

was tragic over numbersusa and as number one

50:05

and number two with that was you took

50:08

it over to be number one. And yeah

50:10

we played his part games. We. Were

50:12

in and and actually the reason we played

50:14

each other we improved. Bubbly,

50:16

You know the we were slightly competitive

50:18

and then we came together the doubles

50:21

team that in big matches were both

50:23

schools. We were the number one doubles

50:25

dance and so now the skills that

50:27

we've developed competing with each other. Or.

50:30

Serving as as a team? Yes! and I

50:32

met a guy I. That's a great example

50:34

of how competition to make him stronger. And

50:37

we all need to unify out

50:39

of to create that to transponders.the

50:42

economy. This economic system as polluting

50:44

and consuming itself for itself. destruction

50:46

into a wife, A colony that

50:49

pays people to clean up solution,

50:51

develop new technologies that the snow

50:53

ravaged parents. John.

50:55

I'm a question or lad. I'm

50:57

curious. A two part question point

50:59

is if their ability for the

51:01

Us to continually print more money

51:03

enabled really this entire economic hitman.

51:06

Economic Imperialism model over the

51:08

past fifty years. And then

51:10

second part it as you talk about bringing

51:12

the world together. Is something

51:14

like bitcoin that is unable to be

51:17

controlled by any country to be printed?

51:19

There's no more that can be created.

51:21

Do you think that that takes away

51:24

the teeth of all this economic imperialism?

51:27

And. He is that possibility of there.

51:30

However, if you look historically

51:32

at. This powerful. vampires.

51:35

They usually are able to overcome those

51:37

kinds of obstacles and we know that

51:39

China now is it a too many

51:41

of some sort of a form of

51:43

crypto currency. So. I suspect that

51:45

maybe what'll happen is that the a

51:47

smart and countries like China made in

51:50

on his facebook. And a

51:52

somehow cool off. The

51:54

Crypto Movement or I don't know. I.

51:56

mean i think that the i think that we are

51:59

gonna move away from the central

52:01

banking system because it's just plain not

52:03

working well and basically everybody

52:05

knows that whether they want to admit it

52:07

or not another question and cryptocurrency is here

52:09

and we all use it you know to

52:12

a certain degree like even if you've never

52:14

bought it bought anything you use a credit

52:16

card you know we're all we're all dealing

52:18

in digit digitized forms of currency on a

52:21

big scale a lot of places don't pay

52:23

don't don't take money anymore you know i

52:25

can't all so many places are

52:27

very shocked you can't buy anything with you

52:29

know with currency you get to use your

52:31

credit including on the airlines we're

52:34

definitely moving in that direction how

52:36

that plays out though remains to be

52:39

seen and i tried to believe that

52:41

the big powerful economies

52:43

like china and the united states and the

52:45

european union won't

52:47

somehow worm their way into having

52:49

control over these systems it

52:52

almost seems like co-opting is

52:55

the specialty of a lot of these the

52:57

government models that really like just co-op everything

52:59

uh with enough

53:01

time and duration john

53:03

i know you got to go uh real

53:05

soon here if there's one thing that you

53:07

want to leave our audience with maybe

53:10

a very short compressed

53:12

like so what of

53:15

of the book and what you were trying

53:17

to accomplish with this what what would that

53:19

message be for the audience well

53:22

i think the message is one of well i don't

53:24

think i know the message is one of hope that

53:27

we are in a time of extreme

53:29

crisis challenge and also

53:32

incredible opportunity yes you know as

53:34

i travel around the world speaking

53:36

at various events or as i

53:38

as they do lots of podcasts

53:40

in many countries i'm just

53:42

about to do one after this with

53:44

a podcast in south africa and

53:47

people around the world are

53:49

there's a consciousness revolution yes

53:51

people are really understanding that

53:54

we cannot continue with this

53:56

economic system we have which we call a

53:58

death economy do we have move into

54:00

a system where we key people to

54:03

mine the plastic in the oceans, you

54:05

know, and recycle it, to plant trees

54:07

and to reforest areas and to fill

54:09

the whole mine pits and to create

54:11

new technologies for energy and other things

54:13

that we haven't even dreamed of yet.

54:16

Solar and wind are improving

54:18

rapidly but they're still in

54:20

their infancy. So, we've got

54:22

this incredible opportunity. So, I'd like to leave

54:24

people with the idea that we should all

54:26

feel very blessed to be alive

54:28

at this time when we're

54:30

facing big crises but

54:32

we have incredible opportunities to move

54:35

the human experience to a new

54:37

level of consciousness and action that

54:40

takes us to a completely new understanding

54:42

of what it means to be successful

54:44

human beings, being human on

54:46

this amazing planet where we

54:49

live. God, I

54:51

love that. I love this

54:53

book. I'm serious like one of the top

54:55

books I've read in the past five years.

54:58

If you're listening to this and you have not read this

55:00

book, you have got to go out

55:02

and check this thing out. It is unreal.

55:05

John, thank you for your time. We'll

55:08

have links to that in the show notes.

55:10

We'll have links to anything else that you want us

55:12

to highlight there if people want to check it out

55:14

but thank you for your time, sir. This has just

55:16

been such a pleasure. My

55:18

pleasure indeed. Keep up your great work and

55:20

yeah, please connect to johnperkins.org. Yes,

55:23

sir. And the new book is on there too.

55:25

Yeah. Yes, sir. We'll have that pleasure. Thank you

55:27

guys so much. I really enjoyed it. Keep up

55:29

your great work. Thank you, sir. Have

55:31

a blessing. Thank you, John. Thank you. If

55:35

you guys enjoyed this conversation, be sure

55:37

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55:39

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55:42

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55:44

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56:04

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