0:03

Hello,

0:03

friends. I'm Jeffrey Rosen, President and

0:05

CEO of the National Constitution Center, and

0:07

welcome to We the People, a weekly show of constitutional

0:10

debate. The National Constitution Center

0:12

is a nonpartisan nonprofit, charted

0:15

by Congress to increase awareness and understanding

0:17

of the Constitution among the American

0:19

people. This week, Ned Blackhawk's

0:21

The Rediscovery of America, Native

0:24

Peoples and the Unmaking of U.S. History won

0:26

the National Book Award. In this episode,

0:28

we're thrilled to share a great discussion

0:30

of Blackhawk's book, which explores five

0:33

centuries

0:33

of U.S. history to shed light on the central

0:35

role Indigenous peoples have played

0:37

in shaping America. Ned Blackhawk,

0:39

Professor of History and American Studies at Yale,

0:42

is joined by Northrop Professor of American

0:44

Studies at the University of Minnesota,

0:46

Brenda Child. This program was streamed

0:49

live on November 1st, 2023.

0:53

It is a great honor to introduce

0:56

our panel. We have two of

0:58

America's greatest historians of

1:01

Native Americans and American

1:03

history

1:04

here to teach us about the

1:06

central contribution of

1:09

that history from before

1:11

the founding to today. Ned Blackhawk

1:14

is the Howard R. Lamar Professor of History

1:16

and American Studies at Yale, where

1:18

he's faculty coordinator for the Yale Group for the Study

1:20

of Native America.

1:23

He's a member of the Tamok tribe of Western

1:25

Shoshone Indians of Nevada. And

1:28

we're here to discuss his path-breaking

1:30

new book, The Rediscovery of America,

1:33

Native Peoples and the Unmaking of

1:35

U.S. History. This important

1:38

work has won widespread acclaim

1:41

as

1:42

our generation's leading

1:44

account of the role

1:46

of Native people throughout U.S.

1:48

history. It's a finalist for the National Book

1:51

Award, and it's a great honor to host

1:53

Professor Blackhawk. And here to discuss

1:56

the book is another of America's

1:59

greatest scholars.

1:59

of Native American history, Brenda

2:02

Child is Northrop professor of American Studies

2:04

at the University of Minnesota where

2:06

she has chaired the Departments of American

2:08

Studies and American Indian Studies. She

2:11

is the author of several landmark

2:14

books including Boarding School Seasons,

2:16

American Indian Families from 1900 to 1940,

2:20

Holding Our World Together, and

2:22

My Grandfather's Knocking Sticks. Her new

2:24

book project is The Marriage Blanket, Love,

2:26

Violence, and the Law in Indian Country.

2:29

Welcome Ned Blackhawk and Brenda Child,

2:32

it is a great honor to host you. Ned

2:34

Blackhawk, my goal in this discussion

2:36

is just to put as much of the history

2:38

that you discuss in your pathbreaking

2:40

book on the table so that our audience can learn

2:43

from it. I'm gonna, there are many places

2:45

we could begin, but I'm gonna pick the

2:48

moment right before the American Revolution that

2:50

you say marked the first American

2:52

Revolution and you tell the story of the Paxton

2:54

Boy as a group of white settlers

2:57

in Pennsylvania who

2:59

rose up and rebelled against

3:01

British officials because

3:04

they identified themselves as settlers

3:06

and this combined with other uprising

3:09

of settlers in the

3:11

1760s you describe as the

3:15

real beginning of the American Revolution. Tell us about

3:17

that and then begin this crucial

3:19

story of the central role of Native Americans

3:21

in US history from the Revolution

3:24

on up. I'm delighted

3:26

to be here Jeffrey, thank you for that warm

3:28

and generous introduction. It's

3:30

a real honor to partner with your acclaimed

3:33

institution this way and I'm extremely

3:35

delighted to be joined by my friend and colleague Brenda

3:38

Child in this conversation.

3:41

You're pointing

3:43

to one

3:45

of the central features of

3:47

the first half of this book that

3:49

opens in the aftermath

3:52

of a cataclysmic global

3:54

war known as the Seven Years War often referred

3:57

to in American history as the French and Indian

3:59

War. And

4:02

there have been

4:03

many scholars who've written about that

4:06

conflict and its aftermath, but

4:08

none has sufficiently carried forward, I

4:10

feel, some of the implications of these studies to

4:13

reorient more broadly narratives

4:16

of the American Revolution. And as we approach 2026

4:19

and get ready for the 250th anniversary of the birth of the Republic

4:24

and the proclamation of the Declaration

4:26

itself, I think it's imperative

4:29

that we look to this interior

4:31

history and do so in part to

4:33

see where the Declaration's

4:37

anti-Indigenous ideologies originated.

4:40

And it's not really well known, except in

4:42

particular Native American

4:44

studies circles and within Native American

4:46

communities themselves. But the culmination

4:49

of the Declaration of Independence sits with the

4:51

inhabitants of our frontier

4:54

whose antagonists are not the crown

4:56

itself, but

4:58

quote, merciless Indian savages whose known role

5:00

of warfare is an undistinguished

5:03

destruction of all. So

5:05

that language

5:08

and culminating concern

5:11

animated the founders

5:13

inherently and

5:15

most kind of conventional

5:17

narratives of American history, political development

5:20

and kind of revolutionary

5:22

formation have not really

5:24

adequately assessed it.

5:27

So in chapter five of this new book called

5:29

Settler Uprisings, I kind of

5:32

work through a

5:35

growing set of studies

5:37

in this field and make the kind

5:39

of suggestions that you've identified.

5:43

That there are in

5:45

the aftermath of the Seven Years' War a series

5:48

of what I term settler uprisings

5:50

that occur particularly in Pennsylvania

5:52

in 1763, 1764 and perhaps most least known in 1765

6:02

when further west from Lancaster

6:04

with the 1763 uprising

6:07

first erupts in December, Croupes

6:10

known as the Black Boys attack

6:12

overland, British convoys

6:14

heading into the interior world

6:18

of Eastern

6:20

North America to supply

6:22

and who are anticipating

6:25

to supply Native American confederations

6:27

that have formed in the late

6:30

stages and the aftermath

6:32

of the Seven Years War. We've

6:34

heard of these wars episodically

6:38

but never in kind of larger contextual

6:41

form. But the

6:44

summer of 1763 saw

6:46

the outbreak of something known as Pontiac's War,

6:49

which engendered such hostility

6:52

and fear among settler

6:54

communities in western Pennsylvania, about

6:56

a thousand of whom were displaced because

6:59

of the conflicts that they brought

7:01

with them sets of

7:03

grievances, fears and hatred

7:06

that ultimately found

7:08

their way into the Declaration. That

7:11

concern about frontier inhabitants that I just referenced

7:13

from the Declaration itself is articulated

7:17

in 1763 and 1764 by

7:19

these settlers who are concerned that the

7:21

British crown is enacting

7:24

sets of appeasements with interior peoples.

7:26

They're diplomatically recognizing them. They're

7:29

agreeing to offer trade

7:31

goods in exchange

7:34

for peace and other kind of provisions

7:36

of recognition. And

7:39

this becomes a defining element

7:42

of the Revolutionary Era. It's not the only

7:45

cause of the revolution, but it predates the Stamp

7:47

Act. It is

7:50

articulated in declarations of

7:53

grievances that these individuals

7:56

and their groups issue. They're

7:58

condemned by people like Benjamin Franklin. Franklin and famous

8:00

publications in the 1764. And

8:05

there is a series of conflicts, the civil,

8:09

I won't quite say war, but civil grievances

8:11

that are violent at times around

8:14

these issues throughout the 1760s. So

8:16

that's where I locate what

8:18

I call the indigenous origins of the American Revolution.

8:22

And I hope that chapter kind

8:24

of frames the

8:27

revolution in a kind of broader context and shows

8:29

how although native peoples themselves

8:32

were not at the

8:34

table, so to speak, when the declaration was drafted,

8:36

concerns about them certainly were. And

8:39

that's true of the Constitution as well in 1787,

8:42

which is chapter six of the book. And

8:45

it's true throughout the aftermath

8:47

of the early republic. So that's the kind of

8:49

central claim of those chapters. And

8:52

it kind of hopefully reinforces the overall

8:54

argument of the book that like many,

8:57

many scholars in the field upon whose work

8:59

this work of synthetic interpretation is

9:02

dependent. There is really no

9:04

way one can understand the history

9:06

of the United States outside of its

9:08

indigenous context. Historians

9:10

have done tried to do so for a very

9:12

long time, but ultimately

9:15

have yet to offer

9:18

a more inclusive and accurate

9:23

portrayal of North American history. So

9:25

this book, The Rediscovery of America, draws

9:28

its title from a generation or

9:30

more of scholars, Brenda

9:32

and myself included, who have been trying

9:35

to remedy the erasure

9:39

and omission of Native Americans from narratives

9:41

of American history. We've come

9:44

a long way and there have been a lot

9:46

of kind of milestone achievements

9:48

and developments along this path. But

9:52

there's still a lot more work to be done and particularly

9:54

outside of the academy in more

9:57

public and institutional spaces, perhaps

9:59

such as Europe.

10:01

Thank you so much for that. And that remarkable

10:04

invocation

10:06

of the language

10:08

of the Declaration itself, accusing the

10:10

King of having induced

10:14

Native Americans to rise up against

10:16

the frontier inhabitants, is

10:19

one of the examples of how you transform

10:21

our understanding of the Declaration and of the Constitution

10:24

by reinstating the centrality of Native

10:26

Americans in that story. Brenda

10:29

Childs, tell us first of all about

10:31

this broader

10:33

effort that Ned Blackhawk describes to

10:36

return in historiography the centrality

10:38

of Native Americans to the American story.

10:41

And then tell us about this remarkable period from

10:43

the American Revolution through the Declaration

10:45

to the Constitution,

10:47

culminating in the constitutional

10:49

efforts, as Ned Blackhawk says,

10:52

to establish federal

10:54

supremacy over commerce

10:57

and treaty authority with the tribes at

10:59

a time when the states are fighting for

11:02

that sovereignty. How does

11:04

putting Native Americans back

11:06

in the American story change our understanding

11:09

of the period from the Revolution to the Constitution?

11:12

That's a lot. But

11:15

I will say that, you know, I feel

11:17

similarly to Ned in that

11:19

a lot of us, you know, kind of struggled

11:22

early in our careers as

11:24

people who were pursuing

11:27

doctorates in the field of American

11:31

history because we felt like we

11:33

were left out of the narrative of

11:35

American history. I remember,

11:38

even though it was sort of an interesting time,

11:40

I think, for myself to be in graduate

11:42

school, there was a kind of new

11:44

social history, women's history was

11:46

coming into

11:48

our departments and regarding it as

11:51

a field. But I always remember when

11:53

I took my comprehensive exams in

11:55

grad school that I couldn't do a field

11:58

in American Indian history. because

12:01

no one in my department thought it existed.

12:04

And it's kind of stunning to think about

12:06

how far we've come because we

12:08

didn't teach a single course at

12:11

my graduate institution,

12:13

a big 10 school in the Midwest.

12:16

We didn't teach a single course on American

12:18

Indian history. And so I

12:21

think that, you know, it was my,

12:23

I always felt very committed to including

12:27

native people, centering them in the narrative.

12:30

And so people actually like Ned's

12:33

advisor, Richard White, was a very influential

12:36

person, I think, in our field

12:38

at that time, who was really kind of encouraging

12:40

this generation of scholars coming up

12:43

to be more inclusive

12:46

in native history. For me,

12:48

as someone who'd grown up in a native community

12:51

in Northern Minnesota, I'm word like Ojibwe,

12:54

I was also interested in questions,

12:58

not just of the American

13:00

past, but also questions

13:03

particularly to my own community

13:06

and our history. And so that's

13:08

sort of what I've tried to

13:10

pursue as a scholar, as

13:14

just these questions

13:16

that in some ways came from

13:19

within my community. For example,

13:22

I wrote

13:22

about native people's experiences

13:25

in government boarding schools for my first

13:27

book. But that all started with

13:29

my grandmother who had been the first

13:31

person to tell me about government

13:33

boarding school. I'd never heard the word

13:36

Carlisle until she spoke

13:38

that word, right? Where her dad

13:41

had been one of the first people from our community

13:44

to go away to government boarding school.

13:47

And so that's been kind of the background

13:49

to my historical career. Of

13:51

course, we've also had not just with the

13:53

growth of native scholars working

13:55

in the field of native history,

13:57

we've been really enriched by.

13:59

conversations taking place in

14:01

our field of Indigenous studies as well.

14:04

And what we find increasingly is

14:06

that these are kind of global conversations

14:09

we're taking part in. But I know

14:11

that when I read like Ned's

14:13

book,

14:13

How Struck I Was with,

14:16

you know, if we'd had

14:18

a book like that years ago, it would

14:20

have been an amazing thing. Or

14:22

I was thinking too of Claudia

14:24

Famp's good book, Unworthy Republic.

14:27

I've always kind of been

14:30

challenged when talking about Cherokee

14:32

removal or the removal of the southeastern

14:35

tribes. And I never really found a text

14:37

that kind of resonated. And then,

14:40

you know, Claudio kind of turns things.

14:43

So the Trail

14:43

of Tears, which historians

14:46

have always used that term, becomes

14:49

now one of the first state sponsored

14:51

mass deportations in modern history.

14:54

And so I think that's the other

14:55

thing that scholars are trying to do. I think of

14:57

Jeff Osler's work on genocide

15:00

in early American history and

15:02

throughout the history of the United States

15:04

as well, that there were terms

15:06

that we need to have a contemporary

15:09

vocabulary to talk about

15:12

the past. We can't just use

15:14

tragedy, the Trail

15:16

of Tears and these sorts of

15:18

ideas. We have to kind of get where the

15:21

modern world is and look

15:23

at his history that way,

15:25

an American Indian history. So

15:28

what Ned's book shows, I think, is that

15:30

history is continuously being

15:33

revised, our vocabulary

15:36

is being updated. And so

15:38

fortunately, you know, we probably

15:41

won't be unemployed soon because our

15:43

work is never really done in looking

15:45

at that history. And I'm so glad,

15:47

especially for those those

15:50

early periods that Ned has

15:52

done such a beautiful job of talking about

15:54

it. Not that he doesn't do a good job with the 20th

15:57

century, because I actually read the book in reverse.

15:59

I started. out with the 20th century, because

16:01

that's the era that I work in.

16:04

Thank you so much for that and for also the great

16:06

recommendations of other scholars

16:09

who can

16:09

expand our understanding as well. That Black-Hawk

16:13

Brenda Child mentioned, of course, Indian

16:15

removal and take us up from the story

16:17

of the drafting of the Constitution through

16:20

the Jacksonian period up to

16:22

the Civil War, there's a lot going on there. You

16:24

talk about how the Constitution gave

16:26

the federal government plenary authority

16:29

over treaties after

16:32

George Washington had gone out to survey his

16:34

own territories in the Ohio

16:37

region and became convinced of the need to

16:39

stop competing state efforts.

16:42

And then, of course, you tell the story

16:44

of the efforts by states such

16:46

as Georgia to assert authority

16:49

over Native Americans who give Jay's

16:52

Treaty as an example of an

16:55

effort to exclude the British from those interior

16:57

territories, which is such a central part of

16:59

your story, those martial court decisions,

17:02

and then taking us up to the eve of the Civil War,

17:04

so a crucial part of the history,

17:07

take us up through it.

17:09

Okay.

17:12

I think we might want to strap in a little

17:14

bit, but it's great to kind of

17:16

think through these really big sweeping subjects

17:19

in such a kind of particularly

17:21

focused and condensed form. The

17:23

book is divided in half. The first six

17:25

chapters chronicle

17:28

what is kind of commonly referred

17:30

to as US colonial history or the history

17:32

of Native imperial relations, in

17:34

my telling. It's titled

17:37

Indians and Empires, and it extends from the

17:39

Spanish colonial period through the

17:42

formation of British and French

17:45

imperial worlds, and then across the

17:47

long 18th century, culminating

17:50

with the drafting and ratification

17:52

of the Constitution, which is Chapter 6. And

17:55

so I'm kind of presuming

17:57

that many of your audience members are interested.

17:59

in

18:00

constitutional history in a particularly

18:03

kind of essential or elemental way. So

18:06

that chapter may help kind of frame

18:10

this subject a bit. It may be familiar to

18:12

the specialists, but perhaps unfamiliar to

18:15

others. It starts with the articles

18:17

and mentions how relatively weak and unsuccessful

18:21

they are. I like some of the language I used

18:23

in that chapter about how the

18:25

articles of Confederation

18:29

constricted more than they confederated. And,

18:32

you know, kind of familiar weaknesses that many

18:34

in the field know, but many outside of it are

18:36

never really taught. And so we're very

18:39

rarely taught that the first government in the United States

18:41

failed to govern effectively, though

18:44

it survived the revolution and helped initiate

18:46

the Treaty of Paris. And some very

18:49

important early statutes like the Northwest

18:52

Ordinance of 1787. So the

18:54

Constitution then opens, concludes

18:57

the first half, and then the history of the early republic

19:00

opens the second half of the book, which is essentially

19:02

a kind of overview of federal Indian relations

19:05

and affairs in kind of

19:08

temporalized, periodized

19:11

forums. So the first chapter of that section,

19:13

Chapter 7, is on the early republic.

19:17

And I kind of force myself to try to

19:19

make sense of a lot of competing

19:21

themes and kind of debates and

19:24

understandings in this subject matter. And I drew

19:26

upon some kind of studies

19:29

of the formation of American kind of

19:31

racial legal categories.

19:33

I want to bring this former colleague

19:36

named David Rotiger. His work kind of really

19:38

helped me think through how whiteness

19:40

became kind of a legal category in the early

19:42

republic. It's not in the Constitution,

19:45

but it's in one of the first laws Congress has passed

19:48

is in the 1790, the Naturalization Act,

19:50

says that you have to be white essentially to become a

19:52

naturalized citizen of the United States. Something

19:54

I never was taught in American graduate

19:57

school or history. And so. So

20:00

this language of race is at the heart of

20:02

the early republic's legal

20:04

and kind of political discourses and it's constructed

20:07

not only obviously in relationship

20:09

to African American struggles

20:12

for emancipation and freedom, but

20:15

also interior and resident indigenous

20:17

peoples. And that struggle is

20:19

trilateral or multilateral

20:21

rather than binary and the kind

20:23

of conventional racial understanding of America. And

20:26

so that chapter tries to bring indigenous history

20:28

into a somewhat familiar

20:30

tale of racial formation in the

20:32

early republic. Like

20:35

much in Native American history, it's not really

20:37

a history of race in the way we think of it, but a history

20:39

of politics and jurisdiction and sovereignty

20:41

and authority. And

20:43

so things like treaties,

20:47

government actions, and

20:49

also challenges between governments

20:52

or settler society become

20:55

really central to these subjects.

20:57

Like when the revolutionary era that had those civil

20:59

divisions that we already gestured towards throughout

21:02

the early republic, the federal

21:04

government has this authority delegated to in

21:07

the constitution, but it's never really exercised

21:10

it. And when it often exercises it, states

21:12

resist it. We're familiar with state resistance

21:15

to federal initiatives on things like slavery

21:17

and its expansion and the jurisdiction of the federal

21:19

government over state governments, particularly

21:21

in the south. But we're not that familiar

21:23

with federal commitments to Indian affairs

21:26

at the southern states in particular are running

21:28

roughshod over. So tribal

21:30

leaders themselves struggle to

21:32

make sense of how to survive in these rapidly

21:35

changing times when the demography

21:37

of the United States

21:39

is changing so, so quickly. The

21:42

revolution kind of unleashes a kind of

21:44

deluge of settler settlements

21:46

across the trans athletes and frontier that had already

21:49

begun, but now it has a kind of a national

21:51

power behind it, the land

21:53

policies of the new government, the growing

21:56

forms of state incorporation, the economic

21:59

trading. practices of the young

22:01

republic. It's diplomatic kind

22:04

of commitments to England and then France,

22:06

which ultimately yield Louisiana purchase.

22:09

All of that is happening in an incredibly short

22:11

period of time. And it's reaping

22:13

dramatic kind of harrowing challenges

22:16

for native people. Over time, native

22:19

people has come to see that they can

22:21

use the US legal system for their own benefits,

22:25

or try to at least. And that's what happens

22:27

in the Marshall cases, particularly

22:29

in the 1831 and 1832 cases.

22:32

Cherokee Nation be Georgia and Worcester be Georgia,

22:35

which is the kind of leading or seminal case

22:37

of American Indian, federal Indian law, or

22:40

constitutional law formation. It's

22:43

a little technical to kind of get into the details.

22:45

But essentially, the Cherokee Nation say

22:48

to the federal government, look, your constitution

22:50

says we are like foreign nations.

22:54

State of Georgia can't have any jurisdiction over

22:56

us. And Marshall,

22:59

Chief Justice Marshall, in that case says, no, you're

23:03

not a foreign nation. You're a domestic

23:05

dependent nation, whatever that means.

23:07

You're thus under the jurisdiction

23:10

of the federal government, but not independent

23:12

from it. But you're not

23:14

under the jurisdiction of the state government,

23:16

we learned the next year in the Worcester case,

23:19

which involves the US missionary. So

23:21

Kansas State of Georgia enforced laws

23:24

over Indian communities that affect

23:26

US citizens. Justice Marshall

23:28

and the Supreme Court say, no, you can't. But

23:31

Andrew Jackson says, yes, you can. And

23:33

Andrew Jackson won't support the cases,

23:35

we all know. And that leads to, as Brenda

23:38

mentioned, the mass deportation of

23:40

indigenous peoples from the South with

23:42

essentially federal sanction. And

23:44

not just sanction legally, but militarily.

23:46

And Claudio's Saunce book

23:49

on worthy republic shows that 40% of

23:51

the entire US annual budget

23:55

throughout many years in the 1830s was used

23:57

to essentially pay for the removal

23:59

of industry. in these populations. Farmers

24:02

along the way had to be compensated for the resources

24:04

that Indian peoples were consuming.

24:08

A ferry boat and

24:11

army commanders needed payments

24:13

for all of their work, bringing these peoples west,

24:15

approximately 70,000 of whom

24:17

were forcibly removed from Eastern

24:20

North America throughout this area, both

24:23

the North and the South. So those are the kind of

24:26

general contours

24:28

of this, often, as

24:31

Brenda was suggesting, somewhat simplified

24:33

narrative of removal. It's

24:35

really one of contestations, struggle,

24:38

federal dominion,

24:40

and then state assertions

24:43

that have not been sufficiently kind

24:45

of told.

24:46

Remarkable. Thank you so much for sharing

24:50

all that in such a powerful way. You

24:52

started with that really startling revelation

24:55

that you have to be white to be a citizen

24:57

of the United States. And as you note in the book, Thomas

24:59

Jefferson, having exalted the Declaration

25:02

after the Louisiana Purchase, supports

25:05

the conception of citizenship that's racialized,

25:07

that's limited to whites, and also

25:09

betrays his strict constructionist principles

25:12

as an executive. And then you note this

25:14

tension, whereas despite the Marshall Court's nationalism,

25:18

the federal government

25:20

resists, as you said, and Jackson institutes

25:23

the mass deportation.

25:25

Brenda,

25:26

what context can you shed

25:29

on this crucial period? It's such a

25:31

striking statistic that 40% of the US

25:33

annual budget was spent on Indian

25:35

removal, but how was it that

25:39

Jacksonian political resistance

25:41

to the Marshall Court

25:42

led to this mass deportation?

25:45

What was the intersection between the Supreme

25:47

Court and the executive branch

25:49

during this period?

25:51

And

25:52

how did the legal status

25:55

of Native Americans change between

25:58

the founding and the Civil War?

25:59

Yeah, so i'm someone who works like

26:02

I say on some of these same issues But for a

26:04

slightly later period of time and

26:06

one of the things I always like to tell my students

26:08

who seem to be very surprised

26:11

at this news Um that

26:13

my grandparents were not citizens of

26:15

the united states,

26:16

right? So these issues of

26:18

of citizenship and indian

26:21

removal we have all these um

26:24

These are continuing stories

26:26

that plague native people into

26:28

the later part of the 19th century And

26:31

even into the 20th century my

26:33

own grandfather for example Was

26:35

removed from central minnesota

26:38

in the early 20th century when they were

26:40

trying to kind of force Ojibwe people

26:43

out of that region of the country And

26:45

so I like to kind of call him a political

26:48

refugee Because we don't really

26:50

think of native people as having a

26:52

status anything like that But

26:54

he was forced out of his homeland

26:57

and then he was moved to a reservation

26:59

white earth with his His

27:02

immediate family his brothers and his father

27:05

and they kind of had to create a new life

27:07

for themselves And even though

27:09

that was only 150 miles

27:11

away from where he was dispossessed

27:14

originally It's still a big deal,

27:16

you know, especially How you

27:19

know when you think of movement the circulation

27:21

of people at that time that was such a big deal

27:24

so This is what native

27:26

people are faced with, you know the continual

27:29

kind of threat of dispossession

27:33

Uh removal this is what our leaders

27:36

are dealing with in our communities

27:38

and I think back to my own community this

27:40

ojibwe community way up

27:43

in northern minnesota In

27:45

the year, you know here where I am

27:47

today in minneapolis. St. Paul. I teach

27:50

at the university of minnesota You know,

27:52

we're we're here in this location because

27:54

of we're at the confluence of the mississippi

27:57

and the minnesota rivers and I

27:59

always tell This is why the big real

28:01

estate boom happened right here, right? This

28:03

is the big one of the big geographic

28:06

centers here in the Great Lakes but

28:08

very soon after Settlers

28:11

began moving into Minnesota

28:13

and there was a huge demographic shift

28:15

in a short period of time There

28:17

was a big war almost immediately,

28:20

you know and a lot of what Ned's book is about

28:23

Even though I think it's a great book and in

28:25

the end very optimistic There's a lot of violence

28:28

throughout this, you know

28:30

throughout this history and in Minnesota

28:33

We'd like to think of ourselves as nice Midwestern

28:36

people, you know and so forth But

28:38

I say it was really Minnesota's founded on

28:40

one of the bloodiest Indian wars

28:43

in the history of our country In 1862

28:47

we had the largest mass execution

28:50

in the history of the United States When

28:53

Dakota people were Dakota

28:56

men were hanged in the aftermath of this

28:58

war. So that's 1862 and

29:01

so here my tribe is up in

29:03

northern, Minnesota And you think oh we're out in

29:05

the you know, we're out in the forest and

29:07

harvesting wild rice and life is still good

29:10

Except you know, we didn't have news

29:13

The internet but we knew what was going

29:15

on in southern Minnesota We

29:18

didn't want the same things that

29:20

were happening to Dakota people to

29:22

happen to our people in Northern

29:25

Minnesota

29:25

and so our leaders made very

29:28

difficult decisions and

29:30

The aftermath of the Dakota

29:32

War so in 1863 my tribe negotiated

29:36

their only treaty with the United

29:39

States and I always asked members

29:41

of our community to think about how

29:43

tied Dakota and Ojibwe history

29:45

is Here in the Upper

29:47

Midwest because we have

29:50

to make political decisions based

29:52

on what is happening To Dakota people

29:54

who seem to be in the middle of

29:56

this big real estate boom. And

29:59

so our leaders got busy

30:01

and negotiated in 1863 and signed a treaty

30:03

with the United States. And

30:07

I was watching, you know, like

30:09

many of you, the Ken Burns documentary

30:11

on the buffalo a couple

30:14

weeks ago. And we

30:16

ceded to the United States land

30:19

west of us

30:19

that was actually in the Red River Valley.

30:22

That was thousands

30:24

of

30:24

acres of prime agricultural

30:27

land and buffalo country. And

30:30

even though we kind of think of ourselves in northern

30:32

Minnesota as being fishermen

30:35

and people who live in the lakes and woods, that

30:37

was our territory as well. We are

30:39

communities lived and hunted and get

30:42

and gathered and practice

30:45

farming in that era in that area. And

30:48

so imagine what

30:50

motivated people in 1863, our

30:53

leaders, we had hereditary chiefs, what

30:56

motivated them to make a gigantic

30:59

land session to the United States. And

31:02

so this is what tribes are faced

31:04

with in the 19th century, right

31:07

during the treaty era.

31:09

It's very personal. It's

31:12

all about your economy. It's

31:15

about your survival. And one

31:17

of the things that I

31:18

find most moving when

31:20

I read

31:20

the documentation

31:24

and the wording of those

31:26

treaty negotiations

31:29

is that our hereditary chiefs.

31:31

I can I want to cry

31:33

every time I say it. They were thinking

31:35

about us. They were thinking

31:37

of future generations

31:39

and they always referenced their

31:42

children's children,

31:45

their

31:45

children's grandchildren. And

31:47

so they were trying to imagine a future

31:51

as they negotiated treaties with the United

31:53

States that included us,

31:56

you know, future generations

31:59

that we want to be.

31:59

would still have an identity as

32:02

Ojibwe people. We would still have

32:05

our

32:05

sovereignty. We would still have our ways

32:07

of life. And that's what's, to

32:09

me, deeply impressive. So

32:11

the United States is a really big

32:14

force to contend with for

32:16

our tribal leaders. But

32:18

they made the best decisions they

32:21

could in a very disadvantaged

32:24

world in which they were now living.

32:27

And that's what I think a lot about

32:29

when I consider the treaty

32:31

era of the 19th century, how tribe after

32:35

tribe, tribal nation after tribal nation

32:37

is forced to make these impossible

32:41

decisions for the well-being

32:43

and the futures of their people.

32:47

So powerful. Thank

32:49

you so much for sharing both the story

32:51

of your own ancestors and

32:54

putting it in that remarkable context.

32:56

Ned Blackhawk, you've helped us

32:59

understand the contribution of the Native American struggle

33:01

to the struggle over citizenship. I

33:04

just checked out Chief

33:06

Justice Taney's infamous decision in the

33:08

Dred Scott decision. And

33:10

he cites that position of Jefferson

33:13

that you noted that Native

33:15

Americans couldn't be citizens. To support

33:17

his claim that black people have no

33:19

rights that white people have to respect, he says,

33:22

in their untutored and savage state, no one

33:24

would have thought of admitting them as citizens in a civilized

33:27

community. And it just reinforces your

33:29

point about the racialized nature of this debate over citizenship.

33:32

You then remind us of some jarring

33:35

facts about the Civil War, in particular that some

33:39

Native tribes sided

33:41

with the South and themselves owned slaves. So

33:43

it was not a pretty story.

33:48

Take us from the story from the Civil

33:50

War up through the

33:52

beginning of the 20th century. There's

33:54

a tremendous amount going on there. What happens

33:56

after the war?

33:58

How does...

33:59

Native American status changed during a

34:02

time when there's still no national

34:04

citizenship for Native Americans despite the

34:07

14th Amendment's passage for African

34:09

Americans, and then the crucial battles, of

34:12

course, of the 19th century.

34:16

The

34:18

Civil War era,

34:20

if we conceive it as

34:22

not truncated by the

34:25

immediate or exclusive conflicts between

34:27

the Confederacy and the Union Army, is

34:30

a much longer military

34:33

and political struggle. The

34:37

Civil War era is also a conflict

34:39

for supremacy over

34:41

much of the continent. And both the Confederate

34:44

and Union leaders understood that the

34:46

West would become a primary, not only terrain

34:50

for the war itself, but also a potential kind of process or

34:56

potential kind of prize for whichever nation

35:00

most appropriately seized it. And

35:02

so it's not incoincidental that Jefferson Davis had

35:04

been working within

35:07

the trans-Mississippi survey departments

35:10

when he was in the federal government

35:12

before the war, envisioning

35:15

potential railway routes across

35:17

the southern portions of the American Southwest.

35:22

It's not incoincidental that Confederate

35:24

leaders kind of forced, as you were referencing,

35:27

tribal nations in Oklahoma to

35:30

surrender their loyalty to the federal government,

35:32

many of whom were willing to do so because after

35:35

being forcibly deported from

35:37

the South, their experiences at

35:39

the hands of the American government weren't generally that

35:42

favorably remembered. And

35:45

the kind of central,

35:47

I think, takeaway

35:50

one might want to really

35:52

kind of marinate on is that the United

35:54

States in 1860,

36:01

was a far different place than it

36:03

became by the

36:05

end of the war, the conflict between the North and South

36:08

in 1865. Much

36:10

more so than the difference between 1850 and 1856 or 1840 and 1846.

36:17

The differences that

36:19

came to the Union during the Civil

36:21

War were seismic

36:24

and transformative in ways that we

36:26

may have been taught but never fully, for

36:28

I think, registered or comprehended. And I'm

36:30

not saying that I comprehend and register them, but I think

36:33

we as a national community need to do

36:35

more to do so. The

36:38

infrastructure of the federal government, the size of

36:40

the federal government, the power of the federal government,

36:43

the reach of the federal government,

36:45

none of the features we think of as

36:47

the kind of national government really

36:50

existed in 1860. And

36:53

I think I have some lines drawn from historians

36:55

of the Civil War era that say things like, most

36:58

American citizens may not have

37:01

ever seen a representative of the federal

37:03

government in their lifetimes, which

37:05

kind of highlights the kind of rural, kind

37:08

of unincorporated, kind of localized

37:11

nature of life within,

37:15

not indigenous, but non-indigenous

37:17

American communities, potentially

37:19

a single postmaster. The

37:22

Union army was 20,000 strong

37:25

in 1850. Nearly

37:30

a million soldiers, both

37:33

black and white, will serve on

37:35

behalf of the Union army during this conflict.

37:37

So the nation goes through this

37:39

extraordinary transformation. Indian

37:43

affairs are central to multiple

37:46

dimensions of the Civil War theaters. The

37:48

last Confederate general to surrender

37:51

is a Cherokee general, Stan Wady. I

37:53

write somewhat provocatively that

37:56

the militia campaigns that have already

37:58

been conducted in California during

38:01

the 1850s start receiving

38:03

federal funding during the early years after

38:06

Fort Sumner and the kind of growing Confederate

38:09

nationalist secessionist process.

38:11

They start the state militias in California

38:13

start receiving federal funds to campaign

38:16

against native peoples. I don't

38:18

ask this as a question but I make it a suggestion

38:21

that these then become the first casualties

38:23

of the Civil War. People getting money

38:25

by the federal government and

38:28

various kind of federal

38:31

kind of incentives to campaign

38:34

in Northern California are

38:38

participants in some form in this larger

38:40

continental struggle. So the Dakota

38:43

War of 1862 is a horrific

38:47

form of ethnic cleansing that occurs across the Minnesota

38:49

River. It's followed very quickly by the

38:51

Bear River Massacre in early January in 1863

38:54

in Northern Utah.

38:57

The people who are at Bear River include

38:59

a lieutenant commander by the name of Edward

39:01

Patrick Connor. He's from California. He's

39:04

marched east from California with

39:06

federal troops to kind of subdue

39:08

and subordinate indigenous peoples all

39:10

across the Great Basin and into Utah.

39:13

This is followed shortly thereafter by the Sand Creek

39:15

Massacre in Colorado and the force

39:17

removal of Navajo peoples from the Four

39:20

Corners region to east

39:23

of the Rio Grande to a

39:25

place called Basque Redondo. There are these just kind

39:27

of large-scale military

39:30

initiatives and campaigns to subordinate,

39:32

remove,

39:34

and sometimes massacre native peoples during

39:36

the war. None of that would have been possible without

39:39

the war effort and mobilization beforehand.

39:43

And so that kind of military

39:45

frame of kind of Indian-

39:48

U.S. relations continues after the war

39:51

when military officials like

39:54

General Sherman or Pope

39:56

and others become major treaty

39:59

diplomats. among Indian

40:02

affairs. Grant institutes

40:04

something called a peace policy in

40:07

the aftermath of the war that tries to bring

40:09

kind of stability to this

40:11

deeply fractured

40:15

nation. However,

40:17

and this is kind of answered your long answer

40:19

to your question, at the same time that

40:21

the federal government is trying to resolve

40:24

conflicts among the Lakota, which

40:27

culminates in the Treaty of Fort Laramie in 1868, resolve

40:30

conflicts among the Comanche in Kiowa,

40:33

which culminates in the Treaty of Medicine Lodge in 1867, resolve

40:37

all these tensions throughout the post-war era. The

40:40

Congress has now gotten

40:42

all the power it kind of has ever

40:44

wanted. The South is gone

40:46

as representatives to the government initially

40:49

during Reconstruction, and

40:51

Congress starts doing things that it hasn't

40:54

really had the power to do in almost a

40:56

century. They haven't touched the Constitution

40:58

since 1802 or 1803 with

41:00

the 12th Amendment. Now they

41:03

offer three amendments in five years, 13, 14, 15th

41:05

Amendment. You mentioned the 14th Amendment,

41:08

it doesn't include Indians. Historians

41:10

have kind of failed to see what that means

41:12

really. Eric Boner, our colleague and my

41:15

co-author in one project I worked with him

41:18

on, calls the second founding

41:20

the 14th Amendment includes

41:24

virtually everyone he writes in North America.

41:26

Well, not the indigenous peoples of America.

41:30

So what does it mean that Native peoples are not included

41:32

in the 14th Amendment, they're not included

41:34

in the Civil Rights Act of 1866 either?

41:37

So Congress is giving itself all this power,

41:40

but not resolving this other problem

41:42

essentially for the nation. Meanwhile, the federal

41:45

government is trying to institute treaties

41:47

and resolve conflicts with powerful

41:50

equestrian peoples. Congress

41:53

starts eroding all of those federal

41:55

commitments or many of them over the next many

41:57

decades. Reservations

41:59

are a step forward. established like the Lakota in 1868, the

42:02

Great Sioux Reservation, it's cobbled

42:04

down. Tribes

42:06

are granted authority and

42:09

provisions. They're taken away. Over

42:11

time, this problem becomes one

42:14

where railway interests, western settlers, and

42:16

others want Indian lands and resources,

42:19

and Congress will help them do so. And

42:21

so various land policies in particular

42:24

will alienate treaty

42:26

lands and lead to the growing

42:30

assimilative designs of the federal

42:32

government to incorporate indigenous peoples,

42:34

not as Indians, but

42:36

as individuals into the body politic

42:38

of America. So citizenship, Christianity,

42:43

English language usage, domestic

42:45

habits, all these kind of normative

42:48

assumptions about what constitutes kind

42:50

of an Americanization program

42:53

and idealized American subject become

42:55

imposed upon Native Americans. This is where Brenda's

42:58

work has

43:00

really kind of helped explore what that means

43:02

on an individual and kind of community basis. People

43:05

are taken from their families and sent to federal

43:07

run schools. That doesn't

43:09

sound like liberty to me, but

43:13

that's how kind of Native

43:15

Americans often appear in these subject matters.

43:17

So that's the kind of general contours.

43:19

There's lots of kind of detailed legal elements

43:22

along that way, kind of Supreme Court cases that authorize

43:24

Congress to have this kind of plenary power that you mentioned.

43:27

But none of this was in the minds of the founders.

43:31

None of this was in the minds of the treaty makers,

43:33

both Indian and non-Indian who negotiated

43:35

these historic agreements. The

43:38

treaties are supposed to be the supreme law of the land according

43:40

to the Constitution, but they've

43:42

been violated repeatedly for

43:44

Native nations without often

43:47

just or compensatory action.

43:49

So it's not, as Brenda was

43:51

saying, it's not really an optimistic

43:54

story for most of the narrative,

43:56

but it gets there at the end. And if we have a little

43:58

bit of time, maybe we can sketch some. of that

44:01

before concluding.

44:03

That would be great. Well, we will hope to end on a note of

44:05

greater optimism, but this is not a happy period,

44:07

as you say. And just that stark fact that

44:10

the 14th Amendment grants citizenship

44:12

to African

44:14

Americans, to all persons born or naturalized

44:16

in the United States, excluding Indians

44:19

not taxed, that infamous language. And it's

44:21

not until, as you know, 1924 and

44:24

the American Indian Citizenship Act that

44:27

Congress ends the 137-year history of excluding Native

44:31

Americans from citizenship. And

44:33

in the meantime, in that time, after the Civil

44:35

War until 1924,

44:38

there is this stark policy

44:41

during what you call the reservation era,

44:44

which subverts treaties,

44:46

which uses Congress's

44:48

new power to divide reservation lands

44:50

and creates this phenomenon that Brenda

44:52

has written so powerfully about, about these boarding

44:55

schools, which remove Native American children

44:57

from their homes in this system

44:59

of forced assimilation. Brenda, please

45:01

share with us this

45:03

dark period that you've written so powerfully

45:05

about when Congress is

45:08

using its power to brutally

45:10

assimilate Native Americans.

45:12

Well, I think that it's not really

45:14

a well-known

45:15

story in the United States,

45:18

perhaps until the last couple of years

45:20

when there has been more focus on the

45:23

history of the Canadian residential schools,

45:25

that we had a similar kind

45:27

of policy in the United States. And

45:30

I like how Ned has written

45:32

about this in the

45:34

Rediscovery of America also, because

45:37

he's always very

45:40

careful to connect this to the

45:42

big picture of what's going

45:44

on. So there's a, you

45:46

know, with my work, I've tried to talk

45:48

about individual people, what happened

45:50

to students, the hardships, the

45:53

deaths

45:53

of students.

45:54

But there's also a bigger picture, because

45:57

you have to remember that

45:59

the boarding. school era, you know, if

46:01

you think of Carlisle as being the first

46:03

of these institutions founded in 1879,

46:06

this is still the Indian

46:09

wars are taking place.

46:11

Some of the first children at Carlisle

46:13

were the

46:15

children and the young people

46:16

from the incarcerated Apache

46:20

people who were imprisoned in Fort

46:22

Marion in Florida,

46:25

you know, in St. Augustine. And then

46:27

also the children were coming in from

46:30

the Northern Plains who were

46:32

involved, their families were involved

46:35

in military conflict against

46:37

the United States. And this

46:40

is, I think, one of the points Jeff Osler makes

46:42

in his book about genocide is we have to

46:44

remember that these are not just send

46:46

us your best fighting forces and we'll bring

46:48

our cavalry. These are wars

46:51

upon families and communities.

46:53

And so I think a lot of parents

46:56

have boarding

46:56

schools initially as maybe safe

46:59

destinations for their children during

47:01

this time of heavy military

47:03

conflict with Indian

47:06

tribes in the United States. So

47:08

let's keep in mind that the boarding

47:10

school came out of this time of

47:13

removal of military

47:16

conflict with Indian tribes and the first

47:19

schools like Carlisle were old

47:21

army barracks. The kids always talked about

47:24

wearing uniforms

47:26

at school. And in fact, many of them

47:28

in the 20th century, even before

47:31

widespread citizenship in 1924,

47:34

many of those kids went off to the World

47:36

War I, you know, they said some

47:39

of them said it was easier to go into the military

47:41

than boarding school, but they were already in

47:44

uniform. But the

47:46

point that I think Ned makes and

47:48

that I always like to mention when

47:50

I talk to audiences today about

47:52

boarding school history is

47:54

that we have to remember that the alienation

47:57

from land continued throughout this

47:59

time. 50-year period that

48:01

boarding school history dominated

48:04

Indian education in the United States. Like

48:07

Ned, I kind of look at these policies declining

48:10

in the 1930s under FBR. But

48:13

during that half century when boarding

48:16

schools dominated Indian education,

48:18

it was still a big land

48:20

grab in the post-allotment

48:23

era. And so Indian people

48:25

lost 90 million acres

48:27

of land during that half century

48:30

of boarding school history

48:32

and education in the United States. So

48:35

I never want to look at these policies

48:38

as apart from one another. They went

48:40

hand in hand. The General Allotment

48:42

Act of 1887 and

48:47

the

48:47

boarding school program. So

48:50

it's another

48:51

plan for dispossessing Indians.

48:53

Not only is it cultural assimilation,

48:56

but it's also the message. You don't really

48:58

need your homeland anymore. You know,

49:00

as Ned says, you're going to become a

49:02

citizen of the United States and enter

49:05

and not really be a

49:06

tribal person anymore. That's

49:09

not what Native people saw

49:10

as their future, but that

49:12

was what boarding school education

49:14

was all about. But we have to never

49:17

forget

49:18

that 90 million acres that

49:20

were lost. So this is even

49:22

after the treaty era, right? This is

49:25

the post-allotment era of the late 19th

49:27

and the early 20th century. Thank

49:30

you so much for that.

49:31

Well it is indeed time for closing thoughts.

49:34

We got up to the dawn of the 20th century

49:36

and Ned, there's so much to

49:38

say, but in reflecting on the

49:40

20th century, which you describe in

49:42

your final two chapters, there

49:45

are grounds for hope. Supreme

49:47

Court cases, including the

49:49

United States-Santa Fe railroad case

49:51

in 1941, the first

49:55

significant ruling in favor of Native

49:57

land rights and...

49:59

other

50:01

landmarks in the

50:04

transition from what you call the

50:07

movement from termination to self-determination.

50:10

So you've done a magnificent job in distilling

50:13

the essence of these central periods as

50:16

you reflect on the evolution of Native American

50:18

rights and citizenship in

50:20

the 20th century. What are the highlights

50:23

and can you leave us with any grounds for

50:25

optimism and hope?

50:27

Many

50:30

of us wouldn't do the work we do if we didn't have

50:32

faith and hope

50:35

and optimistic

50:39

sensibilities. So it

50:41

is though a very sobering subject

50:44

that includes particularly

50:46

within Native communities and families,

50:49

often very difficult kind of personal

50:53

legacies of various kinds. And

50:58

I try to take inspiration from the strategies

51:01

of survival that other indigenous peoples have initiated.

51:04

And you see some of that in the early 20th century, which

51:07

is in Chapter 11. And if you just

51:09

kind of think about what those individuals

51:12

and organizations were trying to deal with, a group

51:14

like the Society of American Indians, they

51:16

confronted this kind of

51:20

heavy loaded sandwich of challenges

51:23

that were being spoon-fed to

51:26

them in all kinds of ways. Land loss,

51:28

forced removal of children, economic

51:31

marginalization, political. It's

51:34

all just on and on, litany of kind of

51:36

forms of subordination. But they found strategies

51:39

of survival and activism

51:41

and advocacy. Those continued

51:43

throughout the 20th century. They led to legislative

51:45

new congressional laws. And

51:49

many of them have endured

51:52

throughout the late 20th and into the 21st century, making our

51:55

kind of contemporary era one of particularly

51:58

kind of important. important

52:01

sovereign expressions and recognitions.

52:05

These, however, are often challenged by

52:09

concentrated interests that either

52:11

don't know these histories and tribal

52:14

experiences or really don't care

52:16

about them. And so we're all, Native

52:19

American communities and leaders and advocates

52:21

are always, and allies are always standing

52:23

kind of guard against the next potential

52:25

threatening law or policy or

52:28

form of expansion that could conceivably

52:31

erode the really

52:33

hard fought gains of the last half century.

52:35

And I chronicle some of those

52:38

in the 70s and the 60s,

52:40

70s and 80s, particularly

52:43

highlighting the capacity of tribes in the Northwest

52:46

and the Great Lakes and places like

52:48

California and Florida to explore

52:51

and enact certain sovereign

52:53

expressions, whether they be over

52:55

treaty rights in the Northwest or they'd be over

52:57

regained lost lands and sovereign

52:59

authority in the Midwest or over

53:01

economic development initiatives in California

53:04

and Florida. These tribes have become

53:06

really for the first time in American history,

53:08

at least since the formation of

53:11

the United States or within the United States,

53:14

viable national communities

53:16

who can protect themselves

53:19

when needed against exterior intrusions.

53:22

That was not always the case as this

53:24

history shows, but hopefully that may

53:27

be much of the future.

53:29

Beautifully said.

53:30

Brenda Child's last word

53:33

in this wonderful and significant

53:35

discussion is to you, what

53:39

would you like to say about the evolution of the

53:41

status of Native American citizenship in

53:44

the 20th century? And are there

53:46

any grounds of optimism that you'd like to leave us on?

53:49

I am such an optimistic

53:51

person that it's like, I'm

53:55

too optimistic sometimes, but I

53:57

also think that Ned's, saying,

54:00

I think that Ned's book is

54:02

ultimately an optimistic one.

54:05

And I'm very glad that he has written

54:07

a book that is comprehensive.

54:10

I think it's a kind of a masterful

54:12

book.

54:12

And one of the things that I noticed

54:15

over the years is that

54:17

we used to always blame historians.

54:20

We're not doing a good job in the classrooms.

54:23

Early in my teaching career, I used to hear

54:25

a lot from students who said that they

54:28

had never learned a certain

54:30

history.

54:31

We had never learned the narrative of American

54:33

Indian history. I'd never learned about boarding schools.

54:35

I'd never learned about the Dakota War and such.

54:38

I don't hear that as much from

54:40

my students as I

54:42

used to. But I always

54:44

think now we need to quit blaming historians

54:47

for shortcomings, especially

54:49

when all of this trickles down into the

54:52

classroom. Because I like to tell

54:54

people these days that we're

54:56

kind of living in a golden age when

54:58

it comes to the writing of American

55:00

Indian history. I was mentioning

55:03

several books today, Jeff Osley's book

55:05

on genocide, Claudio Font

55:08

on removal, Michael Wittgen,

55:10

our colleague's book called

55:12

Seeing Red. And Ned's book is going

55:14

to become a classic because

55:17

this is just really

55:20

a wonderful time to

55:22

be working in the field of

55:25

American Indian history. Bravo.

55:27

Ned's book is indeed

55:29

going to become a classic like

55:32

your works and like the works

55:34

that you've just recommended. Dear

55:36

National Constitution Center friends, thank you so

55:38

much for taking an hour in the middle of your day to

55:40

learn about American history

55:43

in all of its challenges and complexities.

55:46

And your homework assignment is

55:48

the obvious one. Read Ned Blackhawk's

55:51

book. You will learn so much and by

55:53

taking the time to educate yourself about

55:56

American history and all of its complexity, you

55:58

will learn and grow. be better able

56:01

to create a more perfect union in

56:03

the future. Ned Blackhawk, congratulations

56:05

to you for this path-breaking

56:08

contribution to our understanding of

56:10

America. Thank you, Brenda Child, for your

56:13

significant and remarkable contributions. It

56:15

was an honor to host this conversation, and

56:18

we'll look forward to convening you

56:20

soon. Thanks

56:23

to all. Thank you. This

56:25

episode was produced by Lana Ulrich, Taneya

56:28

Tauber, and Bill Pacht. It was engineered by

56:30

the National Constitution Center's AV team.

56:32

Research was provided by Samson Massachari,

56:35

Cooper Smith, Thomas Vallejo,

56:37

and Yara DeRefe. Please

56:39

recommend the show to friends, colleagues, or anyone anywhere

56:42

who's eager for a weekly dose of constitutional

56:44

debate. And if you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe

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57:21

Center, I'm

57:22

Jeffrey Rosen.