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0:52

Secrets, coverups, and strange

0:54

phenomena. UFO's and ideas

0:56

that challenge reality itself. All

0:59

these mysteries, all this

1:00

time. We're ever gonna get to the bottom of

1:02

these.

1:03

My name is George Knapp. I dig into

1:05

news stories that others can't or

1:07

won't. I'm Jeremy Corbel and for

1:09

some reason people tell me things they probably

1:12

shouldn't. And

1:14

this is weapon weaponized.

1:18

Yes, this is weaponized. Welcome back everyone.

1:20

Hey, Jeremy. How are you doing? Hey, really good.

1:23

So I figured today is sort of AAA

1:25

red letter day on my calendar. I marked

1:28

it. Something happened on this date five

1:30

years ago today. In fact, right down

1:32

to the hour. That I wanted to

1:34

share with our listeners, and I think it'd be pretty

1:36

interesting. I've told you this story before.

1:38

Yeah. This is one of those cool moments where

1:40

you go on this like secret adventure and you're

1:42

not exactly sure what you're gonna learn, but you're

1:45

led into some rooms and some secure

1:47

places. That typically journalists

1:49

are not let into. And so that I love

1:51

this story because it it shows people

1:53

kinda what your experience is as an investigative

1:55

reporter.

1:56

I got to know a lot of the key people

1:59

who sort of moved the ball down the field

2:01

on the UFO UAP issue. One of

2:03

them being senator Harry Reid one of

2:05

them being Robert Big Loe, the Big Loe

2:07

Aerospace, Titan, column

2:09

Kelleher, and I came to hear this name

2:12

Dr. Jim Lekatzky through the course of

2:14

the Knapp study. I hear a little bits

2:16

and pieces about this guy, this amazing scientist

2:19

who had run this program. In

2:21

December of twenty seventeen, as everyone

2:23

knows, The New York Times comes out with this big

2:25

story, it has senator Reid

2:28

quoted in it. It has Robert Bigelow

2:30

quoted in it. At Lou Elizondo,

2:32

the first time the public really got to look at him,

2:34

and it was all about the ATEP program.

2:37

And somehow, as we know,

2:39

some of the facts kinda got convoluted

2:42

by The New York Times reporters. We can talk

2:44

about the reasons why that happened, but the

2:46

story was that senator Reid had

2:48

secured twenty two million dollars

2:50

to fund this secretive UAP

2:52

UFO investigation, and

2:55

they called it atyp. I had to tell

2:57

you, Jeremy, when I read that story, I mean,

2:59

like everyone else, I was blown away, but

3:01

I'd never heard the term atyp before, never

3:03

heard of it. So when it came out, I

3:05

thought, well, that's a really great story and

3:07

figuring it's the New York Times, it's gotta be completely

3:10

correct. Turns out it was not.

3:12

So in the in the weeks after

3:14

that story came out, of course, the whole world

3:16

went UFO crazy, other media started

3:18

covering and everything. But there were a couple

3:20

of people who were stewing about it.

3:23

They were not Knapp about the story because

3:25

it got some basic facts wrong.

3:27

So I started hearing feedback from

3:30

Reid, from Big Lo, and from other folks

3:32

that there was another story to tell

3:35

And I was invited to go to Washington for

3:37

a briefing sort of a download about

3:40

UFO investigations and programs.

3:42

I didn't know who I was gonna meet with

3:44

All I knew was I was invited by senator

3:47

Harry Reid to go there, paid my own

3:49

way, got a hotel, I was

3:51

it was ridiculous. I was being really furtive

3:53

thinking I was gonna be followed. I changed

3:55

hotels. I changed cabs. Actually,

3:58

no one must follow me around. But I just trying to

4:00

be cautious because wasn't quite sure who

4:02

I was going to encounter there or what I was

4:04

gonna learn. In fact, I recorded part

4:06

of it on this date five years ago

4:08

as I'm walking from the hotel to this

4:10

meeting, and here's a little clip of it. It

4:13

is Sunday, March eighteenth, beautiful

4:15

spring day here in downtown Washington DC.

4:18

Flu in last night, attend a meeting

4:20

today, a briefing, download

4:23

about atyp, the history of atyp,

4:26

how it relates to skin marker ranch?

4:28

What came before? What came

4:29

after? Expectations are

4:31

high. Yeah. I actually remember

4:34

when you told me that you can't tell

4:36

me exactly what, but that you're going

4:38

on a little trip and that you hope to

4:40

learn some new information about the

4:42

UFO study

4:43

program. So I remember this. Yeah. I

4:45

thought I was going there to learn about atyp,

4:47

because that was the term. That was the acronym

4:49

that Ben used The New York Times. We'd reported

4:51

the same thing. You know, we reported what The Times

4:53

reported about this atyp program

4:56

that Luis Ozona was involved in. And

4:58

then I got to this meeting. It was with Harry

5:00

Reid and walked into the room It was

5:02

at the Ritz Carlton, in a conference room at the Ritz

5:04

Carlton, which is where senator Reid lived

5:06

throughout his senate career. He lived at

5:08

this plush hotel He arranged

5:10

to get conference room. I walk in and there's

5:12

a rescender Reid and one other

5:14

guy sitting there. And he introduced me

5:16

to doctor James Lekanski. And

5:18

as I said, I'd heard this name before,

5:21

little bits and pieces about this

5:23

guy, this mysterious scientist who worked

5:25

for the defense intelligence agency and had

5:27

been at the center of the UAP

5:30

investigation. This twenty two million dollar

5:32

program but I'd never met him before. So he

5:34

introduced himself to me and then

5:36

he started the download and,

5:38

boy, it just blew me away. And the story

5:40

that he told was, well, he went line through

5:42

line, which is one of the things before I could get

5:44

out of that room and not that I wanted to leave.

5:47

He went line through line through the New York

5:49

Times story and told me where it was

5:51

wrong and and why he wanted to correct

5:53

the record. But basically, his

5:55

essential story was The twenty two

5:57

million dollars been incited as

5:59

going to a tip didn't go to a tip. It

6:01

went to something called Knapp. Advanced

6:04

aerospace weapon systems application

6:06

program that had been initiated by

6:08

Dr. Jim Lekotsky. A lot of folks

6:11

in the in the year since then have discussed

6:13

whether or not it was a genuine UFO

6:15

investigation because Adele did a

6:17

lot of things seemingly not related

6:20

to UFO's Dr. Lekatzky told

6:22

me beyond any doubt that it was.

6:25

The only recorded interview he's done

6:27

is one that we recorded for KLAS and

6:29

mystery wire WHERE I PUT THAT QUESTION TO HIM

6:31

ABOUT, WAS IT A UFO PROGRAM? AND HERE'S WHAT

6:33

HE SAID. Reporter: DR. JIM Mccacchi,

6:36

THERE HAS BEEN CONSIDERABLE SPECULATION

6:38

fueled in part by statements from the

6:41

DOD's spokesperson that the

6:43

twenty two million dollars that was secured

6:45

by senator Reid and his colleagues in Congress

6:48

to fund this program and study had

6:51

nothing to do with UFOs that was really

6:53

just a study of future

6:54

technologies, presumably by our

6:56

adversaries Can you address whether

6:58

OSAT was, first and foremost,

7:00

an investigation of your footfall phenomena.

7:03

Why isn't it made obvious and any of the documentation

7:05

that's been made public so

7:06

far. It was completely UFO

7:09

related. The reason you haven't

7:11

seen the documentation is

7:13

we used a statement of objectives format

7:16

for the request for proposal. That

7:19

is insufficient for anyone examining

7:21

the contents of the contract. They

7:23

must have the proposal. Now

7:26

within the proposal, and in

7:28

this case, it was from

7:30

a big old aerospace advance space

7:32

studies, it's clearly mentioned

7:36

among the topics proposed a

7:39

worldwide database of advanced

7:42

aerospace vehicles. There

7:44

can be no ambiguity here.

7:47

This was being proposed as a

7:49

UFO project. Now if you

7:51

want to look at the tail end of

7:53

the project, you'll find over

7:55

a hundred documents required

7:57

to be reported to the defense intelligence

8:00

agency that were

8:02

UFO related Knapp of

8:04

course. I mean, they were large, very large

8:06

documents. And you

8:09

also have technical studies

8:12

and you have that database, probably

8:15

the largest UFO database

8:18

that exists in the world and is currently

8:20

being used by the US military.

8:23

So, yes, it was completely

8:26

a UFO

8:27

project. One of the other things

8:29

that's been confusing for the public over

8:31

the last almost four years. The New

8:33

York Times and other major media outlets

8:36

reported that that twenty two million dollars

8:38

went to a tip, not to onset.

8:41

Can you clarify the difference between

8:43

Knapp and ASAP?

8:44

Yes. The name ASAP was

8:46

a nickname for ASAP for

8:48

certain security reasons. But

8:51

the difference between OSAP with

8:53

the nickname at DIA

8:56

and atyp at the Pentagon is

8:59

quite distinct. Knapp

9:01

had twenty two million dollars of

9:03

funding. It covered military

9:05

and civilian UFOs. Yielding

9:08

a massive database. It

9:11

also had a main contract and

9:13

subcontracts. Now a

9:15

tip in the Pentagon as described

9:18

in the articles, was basically

9:20

zero funded, looked at specific

9:23

military UFO encounters

9:25

in variant port ones because they

9:28

had film and it had

9:30

no contract. So

9:33

getting back to how did this mix

9:35

up occur. I

9:37

think it's it's not deliberate.

9:39

It's not due to to to authors,

9:42

to television personalities, etcetera.

9:45

It's the fact we were running not

9:48

an official Knapp, but

9:50

a closed program. I can

9:52

tell you for a fact that within

9:54

my own office, they did

9:57

not know except leadership that

9:59

this contract was being run.

10:02

They had no idea whatsoever.

10:05

Our security was that tight.

10:09

So this distinction between Knapp

10:11

and a TIP is still kind of muddled

10:13

and it doesn't really have to be. And by pointing

10:16

out the differences between the two programs, this

10:18

is not an attack on a TIP. A TIP

10:20

was real. Lu Elizondo was in

10:22

charge of it. It was a very different program

10:24

with a different scope and a different focus

10:27

from the OSAT program What I learned

10:29

that afternoon five years ago today

10:31

absolutely blew me away. Jim

10:33

Lekatzky described the how big

10:36

The parameters of Olvosap were,

10:38

I knew some of it from interacting with Colm

10:40

Kelleher and Robert Bigolo, but had no

10:42

idea how big it was. He, for

10:44

example, he showed me the contracts that

10:46

had been signed with the DIA between

10:49

DIA and BaaS, that later

10:51

month or so later was the first document

10:53

that I released to show, yeah, ASAP

10:55

was real. There really was a contract between

10:58

the DIA and Big O space, and here's

11:00

the first page of it. Then he told

11:02

me about the the dirt. And

11:04

again, I had seen one or two of

11:06

these things, but had not seen them all. Those

11:09

are the defense intelligence reference documents.

11:11

Right? Right. So I

11:13

knew that that Bass had

11:15

undertaken something of this nature, but

11:17

didn't realize how big it was and

11:19

the and the types of of papers that they

11:21

had commissioned, but they had thirty eight

11:23

papers. I think hell put off physicist

11:26

and former contractor for the CIA

11:28

was in charge of sorting plotting this out

11:30

about what kinds of studies they

11:32

would commission They wanted to have a baseline

11:35

for all these different topics related

11:37

to UFOs that don't doesn't mention

11:40

UFOs at all. But for example, How

11:42

do you track hypersonic objects

11:44

through space? They commissioned a guy named

11:46

doctor William Coldbreth, an engineering professor

11:49

at UNLV, to write that paper, and

11:51

he The information came from

11:53

open sources. They put together, here's

11:55

the state of knowledge about hypersonics. Here's

11:57

what we know today. And here is what we

11:59

project out for the next forty or fifty years

12:02

where we might be, so that they have a baseline

12:04

when they see an object traveling at

12:06

hypersonic speeds they know

12:09

what humans are capable of doing

12:11

and what we're not. There were thirty

12:13

eight total of those papers. I was given

12:15

them. I was given all of them on that day.

12:17

In this meeting with doctor James Lekatzke.

12:19

He had told me those papers were never

12:22

meant to be classified. They were meant to be

12:24

widely distributed in the defense

12:26

intelligence arena. I

12:28

think they were first published on Jay Wickes.

12:31

Their reactions from the consumers

12:33

that people read those reports were all

12:35

very positive. It it gave them a

12:37

a baseline to understand where science and

12:39

engineering was headed. Meta Materials,

12:42

for example, Anyway, the public now knows

12:44

about those reports, but they had no idea what

12:46

was going on. I think only one of them had

12:48

been released as of five years ago

12:50

when I met what Dr. Lekatzky As

12:53

we know, Jeremy, you and I were able

12:55

to release a bunch more of them in the months

12:57

after this meeting. I I forget how

12:58

many. I think I I released more than a

13:00

dozen, maybe thirteen, fourteen,

13:03

fifteen of those. Yeah, and that's excellent. It

13:05

allows the public to kind of catch up a little

13:07

bit with what it is that is being

13:09

studied But I wanna try to understand

13:11

something better. You've made this distinction numerous

13:14

times and some people take it as

13:16

as an attack. You know, that the New York Times

13:18

got it wrong. Well, that's just fact that

13:20

they didn't get the whole story in there, but this is

13:22

not an attack in any way against Louis

13:25

Alexander or against ATIP itself.

13:27

That was a very heroic program.

13:29

The idea that they would take the reins and

13:31

focus in on military encounters

13:34

with UFO. So so anybody in our audience

13:36

that isn't quite following this this

13:38

OSAP program, what I called

13:40

it kind of like the the mother program, it encompassed

13:43

a lot more. It was a big program,

13:45

one of the biggest ever for UFOs that

13:47

we know of, publicly acknowledged in history,

13:50

but the atyp program was or

13:52

call it a program or whatever words you want

13:54

to describe it. It was a group of people

13:56

that focus it on military encounters.

13:59

And and that is so cool. But for

14:01

you, George, what is that that distinction?

14:03

Why is it important that that

14:05

was poorly reported or wasn't

14:08

accurately reported and hasn't been corrected

14:10

yet. Why for you is that important? Well,

14:12

because the twenty two million dollars

14:15

went to something much broader than that military

14:17

program, looking at military UFO

14:19

cases only. It it was a contract It

14:21

was a full time program. They had fifty

14:23

full time investigators hired by Bass

14:26

to look at UFOs and related

14:28

phenomena. Skinwalker Ranch was

14:30

one focus of the program, but

14:32

it it covered so much more. It was

14:34

a lot of civilian cases they ended

14:37

up building the largest UFO

14:39

database in the world that exists

14:41

that we know of anyway with something like two

14:43

hundred thousand cases. They went out

14:46

and gathered up all kinds of different databases

14:48

to incorporate into this massive data

14:50

warehouse that was overseen by doctor

14:53

Jacques Bellet, and it's an incredible accomplishment.

14:55

And as doctor Lekatzky has told us

14:57

several times, and as Jay Stratton has confirmed,

15:00

Currently, the UFO related

15:03

agencies in the US government do

15:05

use this database on a regular basis.

15:07

They can access it. Unlike

15:09

a lot of the other material that was produced

15:12

by OSAT for the DIA. But

15:14

I think it's important to get the record right that

15:16

the twenty two million dollars went to a program

15:18

run by the DIA, overseen by

15:20

the DIA versus the Pentagon

15:23

based program that was overseen by

15:25

Lou Elizondo. The one hand

15:28

Knapp had a contract and budget and

15:30

fifty full time employees. The OS

15:32

the ATIP program was much smaller, had

15:35

smaller focus It didn't have an

15:37

office. It was real. It was a real thing.

15:39

Lou Alexander was in charge of it. And

15:41

as we've talked to Lou in person, Jeremy,

15:43

It was amazing thing what he did is to

15:45

resurrect some remnants of

15:48

us and keep it going after the money

15:50

had been pulled.

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17:28

And isn't it true, like, when a lot of people

17:30

were trying to say that Lou Alexander

17:33

didn't work in the UFO programs,

17:35

didn't have any official responsibility.

17:38

Some of the stuff that even our Pentagon

17:40

put out, isn't it true that you

17:42

were able to kind of reveal his

17:44

name on one of the documents that you

17:47

had exposed to the public. You helped clarify

17:49

for the public that no, Lou is legit

17:51

that he was part of these UFO

17:53

programs. Can you tell me about that?

17:54

Yeah. So toward about a

17:56

year into the ASAP program, they

17:58

had made so much progress. They had

18:00

gathered so much information, had produced

18:03

all kinds of gigantic multi hundred

18:05

page reports and were pretty

18:07

happy with the direction it was going. They didn't

18:09

want to be in position where they had to scrap

18:12

and fight every year for the funding

18:14

that had been promised. It was supposed to be a five

18:16

year program with funding every year.

18:19

But once the This letter was written

18:21

from senator Harry Reid to

18:23

an official in the Pentagon asking

18:25

that they take it into a special access

18:28

program status. SAP status.

18:30

They figured once it got there, it

18:33

would be secure and they wouldn't have to fight

18:35

every year to maintain its funding. They'd

18:37

also it would be secure in the sense that

18:39

they wouldn't have other snooping eyes within

18:41

the defense establishment coming to see

18:43

what they were up to and trying to intervene. Unfortunately,

18:46

this letter that was written by senator Reid

18:48

got leaked at the bottom of the

18:50

letter, it there's a a big hit list

18:53

of all the people who are on the receiving end of this

18:55

program. It's the in this letter, it's the

18:57

first time the atypmanaker was ever

18:59

used. We know from our friend Jay Stratton,

19:02

he told us that he made up that he made

19:04

that number that that name up. He had

19:06

a number of different kind of scenarios that

19:08

in different kinds of nicknames that he could

19:10

use, and that's the one that stuck, and that's the one

19:12

that got in this letter that was sent to the

19:14

Pentagon department of defense

19:16

and then was leaked. But at the bottom,

19:19

those names, among the names, I

19:21

blacked out a lot of them when we eventually released

19:23

it in twenty eighteen, But after

19:26

all the attacks on Lou Elizondo, I

19:28

I asked for permission

19:30

to go ahead and release this letter and was

19:32

given it. And I really revealed that

19:34

Lou Alexander was in fact on the list of

19:37

people because he was right there. He was working

19:39

on this program. It's horrible to see

19:41

the nonsense when someone like Lou

19:43

does good work and he has to defend

19:45

himself against nonsense. can't quite

19:48

prove it in in the traditional sense and

19:50

then you're able to put out document that

19:52

shows Lou Elizondo's name on

19:55

this list dealing with the UFO program

19:57

and just kind of removing that that blackout

19:59

of his name, I thought was a revelation for people,

20:02

hey, I should maybe pay more attention to

20:04

Lou and and what he has to say. But to kind

20:06

of back up for our listeners, when

20:09

you're talking about Harry Reid creating

20:11

this document, asking for special

20:13

access program, status.

20:16

I think that's really important to to understand

20:18

what that means, like, what he was trying to

20:20

do. So Harry Reid created

20:23

essentially this budget and this program

20:25

to fuel the investigation, the technological

20:28

investigation into the yofo phenomenon.

20:30

Technology based. That's what he

20:33

did. But over some time, from what

20:35

I understand, there was suspicion that

20:37

there were other special access programs

20:40

dealing with the UFO phenomenon

20:42

that have not been yet public. They

20:44

have not been made public. And somehow

20:47

Harry knew this is how I understand

20:49

it. So what they did was they were trying

20:51

not only to secure funding, but they

20:53

were also trying to secure the status

20:55

they needed to possibly interact

20:58

with these other technology programs

21:00

that deal with UFOs and

21:03

then that would hopefully allow them to gain

21:05

information that was studied in those

21:07

other programs to help the Knapp

21:09

or a

21:10

tip. So that's how I understood it.

21:12

Is that accurate? That is accurate. You know,

21:14

we interviewed Harry Reid

21:16

multiple times about this. To be

21:18

honest, I don't think he knew the

21:20

distinction between the nicknames. Knapp.

21:23

He doesn't memorize that kind of stuff. At the time,

21:26

This was happening. He was a senate majority leader.

21:28

He was involved in every single fight in

21:30

Washington. He had really high priorities

21:33

on his plate every single day.

21:35

So once he got the money for the program,

21:37

he wasn't memorizing what the

21:40

the moniker, what the acronym stood for.

21:42

When the New York Times does the story and puts

21:44

it out, twenty two million went to a tip,

21:47

REIT's not going to call that up and say that's

21:49

not correct. It was really called Knapp. He

21:51

he went along with it. But when I reminded

21:53

him of what he had done and

21:56

what the original program was called,

21:58

he understood significance of it. I think it is

22:00

important to be accurate here. And I don't

22:02

fault the reporters at the New York Times

22:04

for not being accurate. They went with

22:06

what they could at the time. They didn't have

22:08

information about Knapp when they wrote that

22:10

story. They were able to confirm, yes, it's

22:12

twenty two million Harry Reed got the money. A contract

22:15

went to Bigolo, and there was a secret program

22:17

not knowing that there was a much bigger

22:19

story and a much bigger program that

22:21

they ignored, that they didn't report on.

22:23

I think they did what they could do. They

22:25

tried to not confuse the audience, I

22:28

also think there was probably reluctance

22:30

to get into skin marker ranch related

22:32

material to tie that together with

22:34

the TIC TAC incident in the

22:37

study of military UFO cases,

22:39

I think they were worried that it might that

22:41

might smear the credibility, the whole

22:43

story if they included

22:44

that, so they left it out. But the fact

22:46

is it was wrong. The twenty two

22:48

million didn't go to atyp and went to us at.

22:51

And that distinction, I think, is really

22:53

important, which is that when you're focused

22:55

just on military cases,

22:58

you kind of leave lot out. So I I think

23:00

that distinction is more than just a distinction

23:02

in name. It's it's showing our

23:04

public. That this study went

23:07

far beyond just these military

23:09

close encounters that could get uncomfortable

23:12

for some people, but it is the truth. And so

23:14

reporting that, making that distinction allows

23:16

us to understand that the interest that

23:18

our defense intelligence agency, as an example,

23:21

had in the ophotopic goes far

23:23

outside of the realms of just

23:25

lights in the sky or craft and

23:27

you see this In the thirds that were created,

23:29

the defense intelligence referenced documents.

23:32

One of those documents deals with

23:34

the negative biological effects

23:36

of close proximity to UAP

23:39

or UFOs. So when people come into

23:41

close proximity to these machines,

23:43

what seem to be machines, there are

23:45

oftentimes these effects

23:47

that occur on their bodies. And this is actually

23:50

well documented. It's well researched.

23:52

And we saw a taste of that in one of

23:55

these now public defense intelligence

23:57

reference documents and people were blown away

24:00

by some of that information that is highly

24:02

detailed. There is a great deal more

24:04

that has not been made public. On that particular

24:06

issue, especially, one

24:09

of the angles that was pursued by Knapp,

24:11

that's now, some of it is public, is

24:13

that encounters with Knapp can

24:15

lead to serious consequences, health,

24:18

psychological consequences as well

24:20

and they studied, I forget what

24:22

the total number is, but well over a hundred

24:24

cases of people who had deleterious

24:27

physical effects from being in close

24:29

encounters. And this scandal includes just people

24:31

who see a UFO out in the farmland. It

24:33

applies to pilots, say aviators, as well

24:36

military folks, you get too close to these

24:38

things, there is an effect that happens

24:40

for a lot of them. Well, first of all,

24:42

how do you notice? It sounds like you

24:44

might have seen documents that are yet to be public.

24:47

How very perceptive of you?

24:49

As I said, that day in that

24:51

room, I got the full lowdown. It went on

24:53

for hours. And they showed me the

24:55

full scope of what awesome had done.

24:58

Again, astonishing. I mean, a lot

25:00

of these are civilian cases there was a

25:02

working relationship with Mufon where

25:04

Mufon would feed intriguing incidents

25:07

and cases to Bass and then

25:09

BaaS would pick the best ones and go out and

25:11

investigate them. And there are reports

25:13

that are written on these things that are extensive.

25:16

There is a report on the Tic Tac. The

25:18

very first case investigated by

25:21

a Knapp, by Bass, was the Tic

25:23

Tac, Nimitz incident. You know, you and

25:25

I broke that story long before the New York

25:27

Times reported on it, but there is a

25:29

report that I was shown that day, five years

25:31

ago today, It's the first real investigation

25:34

of the Tic Tac incident, and it is

25:36

thirteen pages long. And in

25:39

the months after my meeting in DC,

25:41

I made that stuff public. We now know

25:43

the guy who wrote it was a a navy guy

25:45

named Jay Stratton who ended up

25:47

creating and running the UAP task boards

25:49

a few years

25:50

later. Sounds to me if I'm very

25:52

perceptive. It sounds to me like

25:54

you have some of the documents

25:56

and reports from the

25:59

program. Is that fair to say? I'll

26:01

say it's fair to say that I've seen it. I don't AAWSAP

26:03

say that I've got it. But yeah, there is a so

26:05

I have that report. That that

26:07

we made public in the spring of two

26:09

thousand eighteen. And I think it

26:11

added a lot of fuel to the fire in

26:13

terms of having details about the TikTok

26:16

incident. And how deep the investigation

26:18

went back then, there was a subsequent

26:20

investigation that was a report

26:23

that was produced by Knapp That's

26:25

a couple hundred pages long, that hasn't never

26:27

seen the light today, that I I hope

26:29

will become public. The agreement

26:32

that I had is I was given access

26:34

to this material, some of the material,

26:36

and I could see others, but I couldn't

26:39

just Wholesale just release all of it. I

26:41

had to have permission for which pieces get

26:43

released and when. So the nerds

26:45

came out, the contract came out, the

26:47

Tic Tac report came out, And there were a lot

26:49

of other things that we've reported since then.

26:51

And, you know, this database itself

26:54

is a monumental undertaking. But

26:57

the reports that were produced by Knapp

26:59

after the DIRDS were done, are absolutely

27:02

mind boggling. There are deep dives

27:04

into particular phenomena and cases,

27:07

cases that the public has not heard, cases

27:09

that involve military personnel, also

27:12

quite few that involved civilian personnel,

27:14

the health effects that you mentioned minute

27:16

ago, foreign governments. They get files

27:18

from foreign governments. That they had a

27:20

deal with the Brazilian Air Force. They

27:23

got all of the Colores incident reports,

27:26

medical effects, in calendars with UFOs,

27:28

some pretty drastic examples of

27:31

what the interaction between civilians

27:33

and UFOs can lead to. And then

27:35

there was a Russian material. They got my

27:37

material that I obtained from in Russia

27:39

thirty years ago this year. They put

27:41

a team of Russian translators on it

27:44

retranslated the documents that I

27:46

had brought back and then did some analysis

27:48

on how the structure of the Russian

27:51

UFO investigation, how it really

27:53

laid out. Stuff that I could not understand. A

27:55

lot more detail and analysis

27:58

of what that Russian UAP program

28:00

was And that program actually

28:02

was one of the impetus for the

28:05

OSAT program. The fact that the Russians had

28:07

been studying this became an argument

28:09

in favor of the twenty two million dollars being

28:11

spent for a UFO program here in

28:13

the US. I hope that that we'll be

28:15

I'll be able to release the Russian material

28:17

at some point from Knapp. It's not

28:19

really clear what I'm allowed to

28:22

make public and and but you

28:24

know, after having this download from

28:26

Jim Lekatzky that day, it was very

28:28

clear to me that this was a real program. It produced

28:30

real stuff and ninety five

28:33

percent of what it produced the public has not

28:35

yet

28:35

seen. It's still sitting there. Yeah. I AAWSAP our

28:38

audience a little bit about your unique filing

28:40

system. For

28:42

these documents. When you obtain certain

28:44

things, you need to or we both need

28:46

to really take our time. Oftentimes, it's

28:48

just vetting it But then also, as

28:50

journalist, it's the responsibility to make

28:52

sure that what you're releasing is

28:55

not gonna be damaging in any way to national

28:57

security. So a couple weeks ago

28:59

when we released the Reaper

29:01

Drone footage designated UAP

29:03

or UFO by our Air Force,

29:06

when we released those images, we

29:08

really took our time to make sure this would not

29:10

be damaging in any way to national

29:12

security. So when you're talking about these documents,

29:15

you have this very unique filing system

29:17

where sometimes you have something in your

29:19

hand and I distinctly remember this time we

29:21

were at a place called the pepper mill which

29:23

is this cool little restaurant in Las

29:25

Vegas, a place where Georgia I like to go and

29:27

have a bite or a beer and we'll meet up there.

29:30

It's a really unique place. It looks like a mother

29:32

ship from the forth dimension with pink

29:34

and purple lights. It's just a cool place to

29:36

go. So we've been in there and

29:38

at one point we walked out of there

29:41

and you could have sworn you had

29:43

something in your hand before

29:45

we left and then you didn't after we went through

29:47

this absolute crazy moment

29:49

where we went up to security in there and we're

29:51

looking, did somebody take it off of

29:53

the table? What's going on? Turns

29:55

out it was uniquely filed

29:57

underneath the front seat of your

29:59

car, is that correct information? It is correct.

30:01

And I I believe that maybe you did

30:03

that somehow just to mess with me and

30:05

to send me into a panic. But there was a

30:07

moment of panic there. It's this material

30:09

is not classified. It's not gonna reveal

30:12

any deep dark secrets. But, boy,

30:14

I was really scared that I had let it

30:16

out of my I grip out of my hands and

30:18

there was a lot of shuffling going on right here

30:20

that in the aftermath of

30:21

that. Right? Yeah. I couldn't believe they let me up into

30:23

the security place to, like, film their recordings

30:26

so we could review the tapes. That was pretty

30:28

funny. I must have been very compelling that

30:30

day. But what was interesting is

30:32

although these are not, you know, state secrets

30:34

and not classified documents, they were

30:36

the first time when I believe

30:39

both of us are wrapping our heads around

30:41

First time I was wrapping my head around the

30:43

the offset, the program itself,

30:46

the scope of that program, even the term,

30:48

the name itself, you weren't sure if

30:50

it was appropriate to say at the time

30:52

advanced aerospace weapon system applications

30:55

program. You didn't even know at that time

30:57

if that was appropriate to report. We

30:59

we've learned so much since then, but

31:02

just an awesome amount

31:04

of information that I really do hope that

31:06

you are able as a journalist to put out into

31:08

the public realm so people can see these

31:10

individual cases and what a cool program

31:13

it was.

31:13

Yeah. You'll recall this same month

31:15

five years ago, you and I made a trip

31:17

to Skinwalker Ranch with Matt Adams

31:20

and with Robbie Williams to work

31:22

on the film. And then at the end of that trip,

31:24

we come back and You interviewed me in

31:26

the parking lot of KLAS TV, in

31:28

which I said something kinda cryptic, hey,

31:30

there's something coming. It's coming real soon.

31:33

explosive stuff is coming out of it. Something's

31:35

going on. Right now. Can you talk about that?

31:37

If everything goes as planned, I think

31:39

we are on the eve of something

31:42

momentous that will

31:44

change on

31:46

a tectonic level, the UFO subject.

31:49

It's gonna be really big. I think it

31:51

changes the tone of how other media

31:53

would treat the UFO topic. From here on

31:55

out. I hope so anyway. And it's

31:57

gonna reveal some things that have been going

32:00

on for a long time. Government involvement

32:02

in studying the phenomenon itself.

32:05

Yeah. It's beyond just lights in the sky

32:07

or radar return. They've been

32:10

investigating and looking into

32:12

associated phenomena, things that

32:14

occur in proximity with

32:16

what we call UFOs, things that

32:19

you would think the government would find too

32:21

far out. Well, any of the fingers be pointing

32:23

toward skidlock a ranch. What

32:28

coming was the New York Times story, is that we

32:30

knew that it was happening, and they were gonna break

32:32

open this tale about the secret UFO

32:35

investigation. And I think you

32:37

also, then a day or so later, interviewed

32:39

me inside KLAUS. I'm wearing

32:41

this blue

32:42

suit, and you referenced the name.

32:44

And we had to bleep it out. For your

32:46

film. That's right. We really wanted the public

32:48

to know about this, but it was a little premature

32:50

because we didn't know the sensitivities. So

32:53

you were real you know, hesitant to

32:55

actually put that on record. So actually, for the

32:57

first time

32:57

ever, and one of my films had to really bleep

32:59

out, like, something I wanted to put in I

33:01

AAWSAP go back to talk about Jim Lekatzky

33:04

a little bit because he's sort of still a mystery

33:06

man in this whole picture. He is not out doing

33:08

a bunch of interviews. In fact, he's only done one

33:10

on camera view that the public has

33:12

seen I should point out, but that's right.

33:14

Only one that was with us at KLAS and

33:17

MysteryWire where I asked him those questions

33:19

about about Knapp and whether or not IT WAS A UFO

33:21

PROGRAM. SO HE TO SAY twenty YEARS

33:24

HE WAS THE ONE OF THE DIA'S TOP

33:26

ROCCAT SCIENTISTS. LITERALLY A ROCCAT

33:28

SCIENTISTS WHO STUDED ENEMY ROCKETS

33:31

enemy rocket technology, what kinds

33:33

of missiles were being developed around the world.

33:35

In two thousand and five or six, he read

33:38

hunt for the Skinwalker, the book that Colm Kelleher

33:40

and I had written, and he became

33:42

really intrigued by it, shared it with some of his colleagues,

33:44

one of whom was Jay Stratton at DIA,

33:47

They thought that maybe there was a reason

33:49

for the DIA to take a harder look at Skinwalker

33:52

Ranch that there had been enough activity

33:54

of unusual phenomena at the ranch.

33:57

WHAT APPEARED TO BE HOLDS IN THE SKY WITH

33:59

KRAFF COMING IN AND OUT THAT THERE MIGHT BE A

34:01

LEGINABATE NATIONAL SECURITY ISSUE THERE.

34:03

DR. LIKETSKY SAWD OUT ROBER BIGHLOW

34:05

TO ASK FOR permission to go to the ranch,

34:08

flew out to Las Vegas. Bigelow

34:10

took him to the property. Doctor Lekatzky,

34:13

within couple of minutes of being on the ranch,

34:15

had a very clear example of

34:18

the kinds of phenomena that pop up from

34:20

time to time, an incident that made itself

34:22

very clear to him It seemed to be a

34:24

message designed to impress him.

34:26

It was something that nobody else could see.

34:28

Robert Bigelow talked about this incident with us.

34:31

In an interview on mystery wire. Here's a little

34:33

clip board. His memories of that visit

34:35

to the ranch with Jim Lekatzky. We

34:37

were probably on property

34:39

George altogether, maybe

34:41

forty five minutes an hour at the very

34:43

most. And he had a

34:46

customized exhibition for

34:48

him. By the phenomena. We

34:51

go inside the manager's house, which

34:53

was Terry Sherman's house, and

34:56

now was Jean Richard's house. And

34:59

our new managers. We go

35:01

in there and we sit at their their

35:03

little dining room, off the living room,

35:06

in the small house, and there's a kitchen over

35:08

here too. And so we're sitting

35:11

north south east west around the table.

35:13

And so the visits

35:15

over and we'll get back on the plane. And he says

35:18

to me, he says but

35:20

when we were sitting there, at the end of

35:22

dining room, did you see anything? No,

35:25

I hadn't seen anything. I told him. It's

35:28

okay. Finally,

35:30

after a while, he says,

35:32

well, I saw something. Oh.

35:36

Well, gradually over days,

35:39

And he's loosening up and telling me about

35:41

what it is that he saw. Well,

35:44

he saw something that

35:46

was elevated off the

35:49

floor wasn't supported by anything.

35:52

And it was rotating. And

35:54

it was tubular. And

35:57

I got this over a period of time

35:59

because he wouldn't fast up and

36:01

talk about it. Like, it was a state's

36:04

friggin secret. You know?

36:06

Well, hell. You know, just an observation on

36:08

the ranch. Big deal. Just you know, we all

36:10

have these things. Tell us what's going on.

36:13

You know? But he kept it very

36:15

close to his vest for quite a long time

36:17

for for days and days, weeks.

36:20

And so finally, It

36:22

it it was an object that wasn't supported by

36:24

anything. It

36:25

was Loading in the air. It was in the kitchen. Yeah.

36:27

Which was right behind his line of sight. And

36:31

it was tubular. And

36:33

there was a rock group that

36:36

had an album called Tubular --

36:38

Yeah. -- Mike Goldfield. Yeah. Okay. And

36:41

yeah. And so that's what's on the cover

36:43

apparently. And he said, that's

36:46

the closest thing I can come to

36:48

as to what the structure of this look like.

36:51

And so so it was it was George,

36:53

He was there for forty five

36:55

minutes. This thing was customized

36:58

for him. It decided it wanted

37:00

him to see something. Yeah. Exactly. I

37:02

mean, we couldn't have done anything to

37:04

be more impactful if we tried.

37:07

If we had tried to concaut something up, there's

37:09

nothing that could have been more impactful for him

37:11

to be able to see this at close range.

37:14

This was probably like, oh,

37:17

maybe eleven feet from him, you know,

37:19

ten, twelve feet away

37:22

at the most so

37:23

close. So did he pitch

37:26

you the idea of a study of program

37:28

then or did he go back to

37:30

Washington, talk to Harry Reid, and then

37:32

proceed from there. What's the process

37:34

there? It was it

37:37

evolved

37:40

So you're telling me about Jim Lekatzke

37:42

and he is not a real public person yet and that

37:45

he only did one interview with you that the that

37:47

people know about. Right? We we might have recorded

37:49

a lot more to get that stuff documented. But

37:51

at this point, the public's heard one major

37:53

interview or even a small interview with him

37:55

So he is actually a rocket

37:57

scientist, a smart guy worked at DIA for how

37:59

many years. Well, twenty years, I believe, is

38:01

what he told us. He's a brilliant man. He

38:03

has two PhDs. It was an absolutely

38:06

vital employee at DIA, had

38:08

a great reputation there, and then he

38:10

got involved in in the UFO and UAP

38:12

issues And, of course, you know,

38:15

what comes with the territory is getting slimmed.

38:17

You know, so there are attempts already underway

38:19

to slime him before he really even comes out

38:22

and tells everything of what he knows.

38:24

We worked on a book project after I met

38:26

him there at DC five years ago today.

38:28

In the subsequent months, we had a lot of interaction

38:31

about what can or can't be released, and

38:33

he would generally give me a thumbs up and

38:35

and go along with it. Didn't want it all

38:37

released wholesale because, you know, some

38:39

of it was very sensitive.

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40:36

We decided that toward the end of that year

40:38

to work with Dr. Colin Keller on a book

40:40

that would tell the full story of OSAT because,

40:42

you know, I think Likatzky grew frustrated.

40:45

He had worked really hard on this program,

40:47

was proud of the work they had done, and

40:49

yet the media reports even to

40:51

this day continued to blur

40:54

the lines about who did what and where the money

40:56

was spent, what was accomplished. So I think

40:58

he's proud of the work he wanted to set the record

41:00

straight. And so we decided to write a book.

41:02

It took fourteen months after

41:05

the manuscript was submitted. Fourteen months

41:07

for the Pentagon to go ahead and

41:10

approve the release of that material. They

41:12

made us take a lot of stuff out, mostly dealt

41:14

with names. It's also one of the

41:16

difficulties in releasing Some

41:18

of the materials in the reports that OSAT

41:20

put together is, Lotto is very sensitive

41:22

in terms of personal information, health information,

41:25

real names of people in the documents real

41:28

names of witnesses who've seen strange

41:30

phenomena, but the witnesses gave those

41:32

statements on the condition that their names not

41:34

be attached, that not be made public. And

41:36

when you're dealing with health consequences of

41:38

encounters with the UFOs, it's very personal.

41:41

Some of this information is very personal, releasing

41:43

it. Ultimately making that stuff public.

41:46

It has to be cleansed, it has to be scrubbed

41:48

so that it does not violate privacy, and

41:51

it doesn't violate the agreements that DIA

41:53

made. I think right now, we are

41:56

hoping that there's a way to release

41:58

a lot more from what the OSAT

42:00

program produced. Also behind

42:02

the scenes stuff about how the program rose

42:04

and how it fell, and I

42:07

I'm confident a lot more will come out

42:09

over time. But it's been a slog

42:11

to try to get all that material released

42:13

as it was a slog to get the book

42:16

published and and past the Pentagon

42:18

Sensors. Yeah. So there was a lot of stuff

42:20

that they had to review to make

42:22

sure that it didn't breach privacy or anything,

42:24

but but they also did remove

42:27

other things that weren't just names and that kind

42:29

of thing. Is that

42:29

correct? That's true. Yeah.

42:32

There were some real sensitivities. We're

42:34

kinda surprised by some of the stuff that got

42:36

through because there is a

42:38

real big hint in

42:40

there in the in the book. We wrote about

42:42

where as you were referring to earlier, there

42:44

was an attempt by the ASAP folks.

42:47

They started getting clues that

42:49

there was a bigger program, that someone

42:52

had the technology. They had recovered

42:54

discs, metamaterials, things of

42:56

that sort. Someone had this stuff,

42:58

had it stashed. That was another reason

43:00

for creating the SAP so that they could

43:02

gain access to those other programs

43:04

because SAP status would

43:06

be more secure. And as we

43:09

report in the book, Skin Walkers at the Pentagon,

43:11

when they went and knocked on doors at

43:13

the Department of Defense, and other other

43:16

places inside the federal government where they

43:18

thought this stuff might be housed, the

43:20

door was slammed in their faces. It was

43:22

pretty clear that no one wanted to answer

43:24

even to a program that was

43:26

run by the DIA. No one wanted to let

43:28

them in and see the goodies. That's

43:31

still something that needs to be

43:32

overcome. This is a part that I really

43:34

want to get into to not be vague

43:36

and be very precise. So

43:38

in your book, when I have talked

43:41

with doctor Keller and you and

43:43

and Jim Lekatzky and we've we've talked

43:45

about it. Page a hundred and fifty

43:47

three in your book keeps coming

43:49

up. And I just want to be really understand that

43:51

why? Why is that page important because I

43:53

think it relates to this idea that there

43:56

are other UFO programs being

43:58

studied by other agencies. They

44:00

were denied access So what is

44:02

it about page one hundred and fifty three

44:04

in your

44:04

book? It's not crystal

44:06

clear, but there's enough information there

44:08

that people should be able to connect the dots.

44:11

Is that the ASAP program managers

44:14

went hat in hand to

44:16

some of the agencies that they felt

44:18

knew that a real story on the goodies,

44:21

where this stuff was stashed. They thought,

44:23

because they were working with DIA, that

44:25

they could gain access to it, that with the backing

44:27

of senator Reid and Stevens

44:29

and Inuit, and a budget that they could

44:32

go ahead and break through that barrier and

44:34

get to see it. You'll recall in that first

44:36

New York Times story, they reported that

44:38

Big O aerospace had undergone

44:40

significant structural changes so

44:42

that it would be secure enough to accept

44:44

some of those materials. Robert Bigelow has

44:46

made it clear they never got any that stuff, but

44:48

they were ready for it. They expected it. It's

44:51

kind of that rope a dope thing that a lot of filmmakers

44:53

have been promised over the years. Oh, we'll show

44:55

you the footage and then they yank back and dope

44:57

fulfill the

44:57

promise. But this is different because what

44:59

you're saying is that Robert Bigolo,

45:02

he retrofitted Bigolo aerospace,

45:05

physically retrofitted it in

45:07

order to be able to hold under

45:09

the right classification and security

45:12

process actual physical

45:14

materials related to UFOs.

45:16

That's what you're saying. That's what I'm saying.

45:18

We can assume some things that

45:20

are unspoken there is that there were briefings

45:23

that people said in on briefings that

45:25

indicated that that that such materials,

45:28

such technology does exist

45:31

is being held and studied by

45:34

certain aerospace companies, defense

45:36

contractors, and that they

45:38

really hope that they were gonna get some pieces

45:40

of it. Or at least some parts of that material

45:43

so that they could study them as well

45:45

in a secure location. That's a big

45:47

deal. It's a big deal. It is a big deal.

45:49

I mean, to the best of my knowledge,

45:51

we are talking about pieces of

45:54

UAP technology. Let it be the skin

45:56

of a craft. Let it be a part of

45:58

the system. That alone

46:00

is shocking when it really

46:02

dawns on you that this is people are being briefed

46:05

on this, that they're retrofitting facilities,

46:07

that they have a contract to and they want to

46:09

try to reverse engineer this stuff and

46:12

that they're trying to get access to these programs.

46:14

But to the best of my knowledge, we're also talking

46:16

about Pol Craft. And that's

46:18

not something that one person has said,

46:20

it's not something two people has said, that's

46:22

something that that seems to be in

46:25

the basis of reality is the best way to

46:27

say it. Now if that is the

46:29

case and if it is the case that we have

46:31

not only fragments of UFOs, but

46:33

actual craft. This brings

46:36

me back to what Bubba's are reported to

46:38

you in Las Vegas in nineteen eighty

46:40

nine. It's like a full circle here

46:42

of actual physical hardware,

46:45

whole craft being attempted

46:48

on to be reverse engineered. To

46:50

the best of my knowledge, that's the case and

46:52

And there's a lot of things that point to that. One

46:54

of the things I AAWSAP talk to you about is

46:57

the Wilson Davis memo. You're

46:59

talking about senator Reid trying

47:01

to establish special access program

47:04

status in order to collaborate

47:07

with other aerospace companies

47:09

and also defense contractors that

47:11

have obtained the rights to study

47:14

some of these non terrestrial technologies is

47:16

what they say. Well, if

47:18

we believe the Wilson Davis memo,

47:20

which I think you and I are both very clear

47:22

that that conversation happened exactly

47:25

like described, in the Wilson memo.

47:27

And this was way before it got submitted

47:29

all the way into congress on the congressional

47:32

record. If you remember that, the Wilson memo got

47:34

submitted by representative Gallagher.

47:37

So what we learned from that document

47:39

is that there appears to be

47:42

some sort of process where people

47:44

can hold back or hide the

47:46

information that is being requested

47:48

from at the time It was the j

47:50

two. So Admirall Wilson was the top

47:53

dog having oversight over all

47:55

and actually management of all the

47:57

special access programs. This is a

47:59

guy Amero Wilson that

48:01

said he would deny it if this information ever

48:03

came out, which he did do is he denied

48:06

this to be true. But he

48:08

did have that conversation and he did

48:10

in the rank that he had as j two, which

48:12

is only one ever at any given time,

48:14

they're supposed to have management over the

48:17

special access programs. So he thought,

48:19

well, if I don't know about it, how can

48:21

I have management over it? So

48:23

he went in to ask at one of these companies,

48:26

and that that's up for debate which company

48:28

I think people can can choose, maybe it

48:30

maybe it was TRW. Not sure.

48:32

But whatever company he went in to

48:34

talk with, they straight up said,

48:36

we call ourselves a watch committee, you

48:39

do not have authority that there

48:41

is a a very stringent set

48:43

of rules that would require

48:45

us to show what technologies

48:48

we're working on that we've almost been

48:50

outed once before through an audit, through

48:52

an accounting thing, and we don't want that to repeat.

48:54

And he was furious. This

48:56

is a person who must have

48:58

access and oversight over

49:01

these types of programs or there's

49:03

no accountability. So he was

49:05

furious, and they basically threatened to destroy

49:07

his career. So this is something we see a

49:09

lot. When things are really tucked away,

49:12

as you say, the goodies, when they're tucked away,

49:14

and certain people have control over them

49:16

within private industry nonetheless

49:18

as a way to to great cover, you know,

49:20

for four year request and whatnot, and maybe

49:23

for funding as well. They're not

49:25

given access, and that is a huge

49:27

problem to not have congressional oversight

49:30

over the way our money is being spent,

49:32

especially something this explosive when

49:35

it comes to non terrestrial

49:36

craft. The Wilson Davis memo is

49:38

legit. It really happened. I remember

49:41

hearing bits and pieces about it. I did not see

49:43

the memo. Back then, but I did hear

49:45

about that meeting because of friendships

49:47

I had with the big low and and the

49:49

people who worked for him at Nids. And

49:51

it happened at a time after nids

49:53

was basically shut down and was

49:56

before the Knapp and Bass program

49:58

got started. And in between that that period,

50:00

Eric Davis, doctor Eric Davis, who'd worked for

50:03

Big O at Nids and worked with Hal

50:05

Putoff for a number of years, had this

50:07

meeting with Wilson. And it

50:09

it's real. It really did happen. You know, the

50:11

only reason I think that memo came out

50:13

is because of the death of doctor Edgar Mitchell.

50:16

Doctor Mitchell had been on the science advisory

50:18

board of nids. He got access

50:20

to a lot of the stuff that was passed around among

50:22

those people after he died. His

50:25

papers suddenly became available to a

50:27

lot of other people and it leaked out. It's

50:29

real. It really happened back then in real

50:31

time. And and it does suggest that there

50:33

are these programs so sensitive that

50:35

the guy who's in charge of special access

50:37

programs, even he can't get into

50:39

them. There's a there's a lesson there, you

50:41

know, and how sensitive they are. Knapp

50:44

learned that lesson all over again as

50:46

they get bits and pieces following the trail

50:48

of breadcrumbs and where they think this

50:50

material might be stashed they go to

50:53

knock on the door to ask if they're let in

50:55

and the door slammed in their face. It's

50:57

real and I hope that these

50:59

whistleblowerers who have now come forward

51:01

to Congress You and I know some of them

51:03

what they've been telling members of Congress behind

51:05

closed doors that they will be able to

51:07

testify in a public arena and

51:09

tell what they know, where this stuff is,

51:11

and how the public should be able to access

51:13

it. I don't know that that will happen. Do

51:15

you? I I do know that

51:17

there are more hearings coming. I mean, we

51:19

were all told that by a congressperson

51:22

that was on a a news show with me. So

51:24

if we believe that to be true, then there

51:27

will be more hearings. What

51:29

was really shocking about it was

51:31

actually congressperson, Berschett.

51:33

What he said on that Newscast,

51:36

was that there are pilots being

51:38

denied the right to speak

51:40

in these congressional hearings. And that

51:42

to me was unbelievable. The

51:44

idea that they could be stopped from

51:46

talking. So I know that there are

51:48

in the works right now new congressional

51:51

hearings that will have witnesses who

51:53

have witnesses like people, hopefully

51:55

someone like Commander David Travers

51:57

on the record. Commander Chad

51:59

Underwood, who filmed the TikTok UFO,

52:02

lieutenant Ryan Graves. Those are some great

52:04

people that the public already knows about.

52:06

But there's a lot of people that public doesn't

52:08

know about. Now your question that you threw

52:10

out me, which is Do I think that these

52:12

people that we know about these actual

52:15

UFO, whistleblower from inside

52:18

of government who know

52:20

specifically some of the storage locations

52:23

of specific types of machinery

52:25

to quote, Robert Bigelow, He called

52:27

it in one of your interviews, by the way. He he didn't

52:30

say pieces. He didn't say parts. He didn't say metal

52:32

materials. He said machinery, which I

52:34

thought was really interesting. So

52:36

are these people going to be able to publicly

52:39

put their story out in a congressional

52:41

setting? Don't know. Some of this

52:43

stuff is highly classified, and

52:46

that's why they have to do these three

52:48

things, in classified settings.

52:50

However, I do know that one

52:53

way or the other, their stories

52:55

are gonna come out because that's the job of

52:57

journalists and reporters. So I can tell

52:59

you for sure, that information will

53:01

be public to the highest degree that it can

53:03

be. Is that going to be in a setting of

53:06

congress and this sort of thing public hearings

53:08

don't know would hope so?

53:09

If it is not released in

53:12

a confirmable way, if these whistleblower

53:14

has just come out and make these allegations and

53:16

no one backs them up, like, Congress

53:18

doesn't say, yeah, they told us that in

53:20

a classified briefing, we think it's true.

53:23

If if they are restricted on what they can

53:25

say about this information, when

53:27

when the time comes, if these whistleblowerers go

53:29

public. Now then we're gonna see those whistleblowerers

53:32

raked over the coals by the same cast of characters

53:34

who attack every UFO case and

53:37

u UAP incident that comes out who

53:39

are now attacking Jay Stratton and Travis

53:41

Taylor on a daily basis whose

53:43

job it seems to be is to debunk

53:45

and smear and attack anyone

53:47

who comes out with information. It's gonna

53:50

take a lot of courage for these whistleblower folks

53:52

to go ahead and put their names attached to

53:54

these stories. But we know their

53:57

basic story, what they've told members

53:59

of Congress, what they've told us, The

54:01

material is real. It's out there. What

54:03

happens if they make those allegations

54:05

in public and nobody follows up on

54:07

it? Well, they're gonna be slimed. Is

54:09

what's gonna happen. I think that's to

54:11

be expected. There's people that don't want

54:13

it to be true even though it is true.

54:15

And there's also people that really make

54:17

a hard effort to try to absolutely

54:21

deteriorate any substantive truth

54:24

by by picking apart things to a point

54:26

of nonsense. You know, like we see with the

54:28

twenty nineteen events. I mean, we brought forward

54:31

witnesses, videos, all

54:33

sorts of stuff. And there were

54:35

so many of these unknown objects,

54:38

these units as we'll call them, you know,

54:40

flying over these ships. We we even have the

54:42

people observing the vast rate for our

54:44

military saying, There were no launches and

54:46

no lands. Yet there's still

54:48

this huge effort to completely dismiss

54:51

everything as visual artifacts

54:53

rather than looking at the evidence in the truth. So

54:55

you can just, you know, sure is rain. You're

54:57

gonna expect that there's gonna be smear

54:59

campaigns on on anybody that that

55:01

pops their head up above the sand in

55:03

any way. We saw that with Lazar. We see

55:05

that moving forward with anybody that comes up

55:08

and and talks about this stuff. You know, people

55:10

just gotta have thick skin. They just gotta

55:12

allow people to, I would say,

55:14

chop up their words and put them in wrong

55:16

places. I mean, they do crazy stuff, but

55:18

ultimately, The story will be told

55:20

and and time itself is on the side of

55:22

truth. You you see it every day

55:24

when the Department of Defense gets

55:27

asked about this case or that case,

55:29

the word games that are played, the

55:32

word salad, the the kinds

55:34

of things that have been used to attack Lou

55:36

Elizondo, all these years later,

55:38

no, atyp wasn't really he had no managerial responsibilities,

55:41

etcetera. There's fuzzy enough language

55:43

in there that they're happy to pounce

55:46

on it and allow people and encourage

55:48

people to go ahead and slime folks

55:50

who've come forward. He's still being slimed to

55:52

this day. There are people arguing about whether tip

55:54

existed and whether he had anything to do with

55:56

it. We also know they play games with the

55:58

videos and images that you and I

56:00

have released. We reported this

56:03

Baghdad Phantom a couple of weeks ago.

56:05

And of course, we tell in that story

56:07

the Pentagon doesn't have this. It was

56:09

stopped. The Air Force stopped it. They didn't

56:12

send it up the chain. Arrow didn't get it.

56:14

People call up Susan Goff and try

56:16

to get a comment from her and she says, I can't confirm

56:18

that. Of course not. She's never seen it before.

56:21

I'm sure she's seen it by now. The

56:23

the other games that are played, the Reaper

56:25

drone that recorded those images. Oh,

56:28

we can't release this stuff. It's just too sensitive.

56:30

Until this past week, when

56:32

a Russian war plane sprays fuel

56:34

on a different reaper

56:36

drone, disables it. And then

56:38

suddenly the Pentagon finds it can release

56:40

that kind of material. It's a double standard.

56:42

Right? Absolutely. It's yeah. For for, you

56:44

know, from an active conflict zone, They're

56:47

releasing footage from a reaper drone. It's almost

56:49

ironic that that came out just a week

56:51

after or whatever. There AAWSAP couple weeks after

56:53

we released the bag that Phantom, UFO,

56:56

imagery. So why is that important though?

56:58

Why is that double standard kind of important?

57:00

So on one side, we're saying, look, you know,

57:02

flight safety is really important. We have

57:04

a Russian plane that's messing with a reaper

57:07

drone, we're gonna put out that footage. But

57:09

UAPs, UFOs, from

57:11

a very core basic level, and this is something

57:14

that lieutenant Ryan Graves talks about. It is

57:16

a flight safety issue because of near

57:18

miss and that sort of thing. So

57:21

already, we have a known issue

57:24

where there there needs to be transparency, but

57:26

but nothing. I mean, just silence.

57:29

Like, they're not going to acknowledge

57:31

or put that information out because it's too

57:34

sensitive dealing with the UFS. It is a complete

57:36

double standard. It's side talk.

57:38

It's absolute. It's wrong.

57:40

It's wrong. And so it takes journalists

57:43

to to put out information, hoping to

57:45

get a response to kind of mend

57:47

the way the information is put out. And I'll tell you

57:49

this too. There is more coming out this

57:51

year on the show. We're gonna be talking about

57:53

shoot down attempts and we're gonna be showing

57:55

imagery that has to do with these shoot

57:58

down attempts of unknowns. And

58:00

I really hope that the

58:02

the offices that deal with the public,

58:05

like Susan Gow's office whoever is whispering

58:07

in her ear unless she's acting on

58:09

her own, which would it is at this point

58:11

to me, to say things that aren't true. I mean,

58:13

that that should be illegal if it's not illegal.

58:15

I know it's common practice sometimes, but

58:18

we're now at a point where it's provable that

58:20

it's incorrect information. She did a slime

58:22

job, as you said, on Lou Elizondo, continued

58:25

that. We now know that he did work

58:27

in the capacities that he said. So

58:29

hopefully, we can hold people accountable, but

58:31

that discrepancy between what is

58:33

put out like that Russian fighter

58:35

putting all that jet fuel on that

58:38

reaper drone to disable it. There was

58:40

a reason they put that out. There must have been beneficial

58:42

for them to utilize that why

58:45

would they put it

58:45

out? So the choices of what's being put out

58:47

is really interesting to me. Yeah. If they

58:49

could release that, then they should be able to release

58:51

the actual video or

58:53

footage from that thermal thing on the reaper

58:56

that was flying over baguette. Why not? It's

58:58

not gonna reveal any deep dark secrets

59:01

to the Russians don't know. We have thermal

59:03

imagery on reapers or

59:04

what? Why why can't they? Yeah. They

59:06

they can.

59:09

Getting to know yourself can be a lifelong

59:11

process. Especially since you're always

59:13

growing and changing. But deepening

59:16

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1:00:10

I know that five years ago today,

1:00:12

right about this time, I was getting in a

1:00:14

cab get ready to go but to the airport

1:00:16

and fly back Las Vegas. And

1:00:18

my head was throbbing because Jim

1:00:20

Lekoutsky all this stuff that he had told

1:00:23

me that senator Reid had

1:00:25

confirmed sitting there in that room hours

1:00:27

of the download on the OSAT program

1:00:30

that there are lessons to be learned

1:00:32

from the experience, of You

1:00:34

know, we're now seeing congress

1:00:36

members demanding that arrow

1:00:38

have an actual budget that it'd hire some people.

1:00:41

That three staffers is not enough

1:00:43

manpower to get the job done, to

1:00:45

get their heads around the UAP, UFO

1:00:48

issues. So I hope that they're going to

1:00:50

get some actual money that they'll be able

1:00:52

to hire enough staff to take on

1:00:54

the kinds of things that Knapp did. OSAT

1:00:57

has been slimmed by people

1:00:59

who really have no idea what the program

1:01:01

accomplished. But I think it serves as a model

1:01:04

for what arrow should and could

1:01:06

become. You can't just focus

1:01:08

on military encounters and expect

1:01:10

to solve this mystery. You have to follow the

1:01:12

evidence where it leads. In the case of

1:01:14

OSAT, they looked at the health consequences

1:01:17

of people who become in context

1:01:19

of encountered UFOs. They're serious.

1:01:21

They're real. Aero has said,

1:01:24

look, we're gonna have to follow the

1:01:26

evidence to look at human

1:01:28

consequences, health effects of UFO

1:01:30

encounters. And if they do that, if they

1:01:32

stick to that, they're gonna have to go down

1:01:34

the path that OSAT followed to follow the

1:01:36

evidence where it leads. There are health effects,

1:01:39

there are psychological effects, I hope

1:01:41

that they're gonna be courageous enough

1:01:43

to go ahead and expand the bounds

1:01:45

of what that program is and

1:01:47

what it could be because they're not gonna get

1:01:49

answers. Unless they look at the big picture. There

1:01:51

was an exaggeration that kind of made

1:01:53

its way around the Internet, you

1:01:55

know, major media personality person said

1:01:58

something like there was a hundred fatalities

1:02:01

associated with close proximity to you.

1:02:03

That that was incorrect information.

1:02:06

There was a lot of cases that dealt with

1:02:09

biological physiological damage

1:02:11

associated with UAP and UFO close

1:02:13

proximity to them. And to the

1:02:15

point, I mean, I think it's very obvious now Dr.

1:02:18

Gary Nolan was one of the prime

1:02:20

people who was studying this.

1:02:22

And it is my knowledge that a lot

1:02:24

of that information was directly

1:02:27

related to the UFO phenomenon that

1:02:29

there was and they did trace

1:02:31

over a long periods of time what

1:02:34

those damages were to the physical body

1:02:36

it wasn't from what I understand a people

1:02:38

that were murdered by close proximity to

1:02:40

UFOs. No, that's that never happened.

1:02:42

That's not true. It's unfortunate that

1:02:44

came out because it gives to the bunkers a

1:02:47

victory. They can easily slime

1:02:49

that and and dismiss it. I think

1:02:52

it it damages the overall credibility

1:02:54

of what really did happen. That kind of research

1:02:56

is still underway. OSAT kicked it

1:02:58

off. That the papers

1:03:00

that have been written about that and the OSAT

1:03:03

documents that have not been made public are

1:03:05

pretty persuasive and compelling.

1:03:08

And hopefully later this year, some

1:03:10

of that additional material can be released.

1:03:12

But Knapp did a great job

1:03:14

if it had been allowed to continue. Beyond

1:03:17

the twenty seven months. If it had

1:03:19

been allowed to go five years, which was the

1:03:21

original plan, we might have some answers

1:03:23

by now. If they had been knocked at the

1:03:25

door and not have the door slammed in their face,

1:03:28

they might have gained access to that special

1:03:30

access programs, the goodies, the meta materials,

1:03:33

the

1:03:33

craft, maybe bodies, and we could

1:03:35

have some answers. But for now, we have to

1:03:37

be patient, I guess. I do hope like

1:03:39

you that we have a really robust

1:03:41

program that does come with

1:03:44

arrow, and then it it does take this

1:03:46

issue in the light, in the way that it

1:03:48

can be. But I know for sure as journalists

1:03:50

that we are constantly obtaining

1:03:53

information and imagery and videos

1:03:55

and documents. So I know for sure that

1:03:57

there are cases that over military

1:04:00

facilities by the way, that have been

1:04:02

hidden from all processes

1:04:05

after the event itself. I mean, literally,

1:04:07

hidden. And once as journalist you

1:04:09

and I find out about them, we can dig into

1:04:12

them, we can explore, and we can pass

1:04:14

that information along, and that is happening,

1:04:16

there's going to be a case that you and I reveal

1:04:18

on this show that is pretty

1:04:21

astounding. My point is,

1:04:23

is that no matter what is done within

1:04:25

government, journalists and

1:04:27

reporters and people that are on this beat

1:04:29

and interested in this, we're gonna move

1:04:31

the ball forward. Come hell or high water.

1:04:33

There's no stopping it. Because people are frustrated

1:04:36

and they continue to come to

1:04:37

us. Well, I hope people appreciate this

1:04:39

or stroll down memory lane five years ago

1:04:41

today, my mind was blown, going to

1:04:44

to DC to meet with Harry Reid and doctor

1:04:46

Jim Lekatzke, first time ever talked

1:04:49

to him in person. That encounter,

1:04:51

that day has allowed us to More

1:04:54

fully explain what really went on with these

1:04:56

secret UAP UFO related studies.

1:04:58

I hope that Arrow is paying attention. I

1:05:00

hope that they will use Knapp as a model.

1:05:03

For what they're gonna have to do to really get their

1:05:05

heads around the big questions. Another

1:05:07

anniversary that's looming for us, thirty

1:05:09

years ago, next month, thirty years ago in

1:05:12

April, I made the first trip to Russia.

1:05:14

And we brought back a bounty of documents.

1:05:17

Many of those documents were analyzed by

1:05:19

OSAT, there's a really cool report

1:05:21

that will be made public at some point,

1:05:23

but you and I can explore some

1:05:25

of the information that I brought back and

1:05:27

some of the interviews we got sometime maybe

1:05:30

the next month or so. Absolutely. I'm excited

1:05:32

about that. I think that's really important, you know, the

1:05:34

big picture. We learned more

1:05:36

about UFO programs here

1:05:38

in the United States from Russian documents

1:05:40

than we'd have from our own government. That's something

1:05:42

you said to me a bunch. So I think it's gonna be really

1:05:44

important for people to be able to understand

1:05:47

and embrace that information thirty years after

1:05:49

you coming back with it. Because it really

1:05:51

sets the tone for what's happening now.

1:05:53

There are just certain facts. And the facts

1:05:55

are our government did not stop studying

1:05:57

UFOs in nineteen sixty nine were Project

1:05:59

Blue Book. That was a lie in that there has

1:06:01

been constant studies in every branch

1:06:03

of our military industrial complex. There has

1:06:06

been study programs. That's gonna

1:06:08

be an interesting light to shine

1:06:10

on the Russian documents in this

1:06:12

show. People may not realize this if

1:06:14

they've been watching weaponized so far

1:06:16

and the episodes that we put out. But you and

1:06:18

I do have interest beyond UFO's UAP.

1:06:21

We're interested in culture and entertainment

1:06:24

and movies and art and things

1:06:26

of that sort. And in the future, we're gonna

1:06:28

be veering off into talking to some

1:06:30

interesting people that have nothing to do with

1:06:32

this particular

1:06:33

subject. Right? Yeah. But all roads lead

1:06:35

to UFOs, and you know that everybody's

1:06:37

got a UFO story. So even when we're

1:06:39

dealing with things like, you know, philosophy or

1:06:41

movies or this sort of thing, there's always

1:06:44

that connection that kind of binds our

1:06:46

interests together. So, yeah, it's gonna be fun.

1:06:48

I continue to enjoy these conversations. I'm

1:06:50

glad that we can let people in to hear kind

1:06:52

of some of the stuff that we would normally just talk

1:06:54

about. But, yeah, five years to the day

1:06:57

of your kind of secret trip out to learn more

1:06:59

about UFOs, in

1:07:00

Washington. Really cool. Thanks for sharing that

1:07:02

story,

1:07:02

man. Alright. Talk to you soon.

1:07:16

Never had so few,

1:07:19

had so much to tell, but

1:07:21

to say so little.

1:07:24

Following this weaponized, presentation is

1:07:26

Jeremy Corbell, George Knapp, Dark Corbell

1:07:28

Entertainment and Cadence Thirteen Studios

1:07:30

available now for free on the Odyssey

1:07:32

app wherever you get your shows.