0:00

This. Is the Guardian. Of

0:03

a. Welcome.

0:09

To weekend a podcast their hopes he

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switched off for me A busy day

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to day and find entertainment and inspiration

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and the best goddamn observer writing from

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the week. You can either listen to

0:20

this as one podcast will play each

0:23

article as individual listens just scrolled. i'm

0:25

a description on the podcast page, the

0:27

timings of what we're featuring. Coming.

0:31

Up. Comedian: Sophie Hagan

0:34

on being celibate for more than eight

0:36

years. The five

0:38

pound coffee is coming but should

0:40

be. Swallow it and I've lost

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contact with my brother. Is it

0:44

too late to reach out? Philippa

0:46

Perry responds to one read his

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plight. Burrow.

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and A.com. Just

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a warning, there's a bit of bad language in

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this episode. Now,

2:08

Sophie Hagen loves intercourse. So

2:11

why has it been 3,089 days since they've actually had

2:14

any? In this edited extract

2:17

from their book, Sophie reflects on

2:19

the complex reasons behind their celibacy.

2:21

Read by Sophie Hagen. This

2:24

article touches on the topic of

2:26

sexual assault, which some listeners may

2:28

find upsetting. I

2:31

first had sex when I was 16. I have

2:34

since had quite a few people inside my

2:36

body. Some were more welcome

2:39

than others, like the

2:41

surgeon who removed my inflamed appendix and

2:44

that incredibly hot Dutch photographer in an

2:46

Oudzeigt Airbnb to whom I would have

2:48

given my appendix had he asked. Others

2:52

have only penetrated me with their words

2:54

or in my fantasies. Some

2:57

of the experiences feel unreal, like

2:59

the guy who referred to himself

3:01

as Big Mike and claimed

3:03

that he was moving to Finland the next day,

3:06

despite there being no packed moving

3:08

boxes or suitcases in his house.

3:11

I wouldn't be able to pick him out of a line-up today. I

3:15

am torn between two different versions of

3:17

that story. In one,

3:19

I was 20-something, wild, confident, and

3:21

single. I met a hot guy in

3:23

a bar and we went back

3:25

to his place. He

3:27

read me some of his poems, I

3:30

elegantly undressed, and we had sex. Twice.

3:34

The next day, when I was deliciously

3:36

hungover, I reveled in the fact

3:38

that we didn't even exchange phone numbers, as if

3:40

I was in Sex and the City. Then

3:44

there is the other version, the one

3:46

in which I felt honored that someone

3:49

that conventionally attractive was interested, the

3:51

one in which I was very aware that I

3:53

was one of the only people left in the bar

3:56

when he approached me and I ignored all the

3:58

red flags, like the obvious lie about moving to

4:00

Finland, clearly told so I knew this was

4:02

just sex. The

4:04

version in which I did leave him my

4:06

number, he just never called. Though

4:09

a few days later a friend of

4:11

his got in touch and basically requested

4:13

sex because he had heard I was

4:16

willing to do it with anyone. In

4:19

this version, while still at the bar, I

4:21

desperately drank as much alcohol as I could

4:23

afford because I needed to drown out the

4:25

inner voice telling me that I didn't really

4:28

want to do this. I

4:30

wanted to feel wanted, I wanted

4:33

to orgasm, I wanted to feel safe.

4:36

Instead, I settled for what I thought

4:38

would be better than nothing. Both

4:42

versions feel true. Part

4:44

of me is adventurous, I do love

4:46

sex, I'm not looking for a

4:48

relationship, I love my fat body and I

4:50

don't particularly need to care about someone to

4:52

have sex with them. But

4:55

another part of me is shit-scared,

4:58

of intimacy and rejection, of

5:00

not being desirable to potential

5:02

sexual partners. Right

5:05

now, as I speak, I haven't had sex in 3,089 days.

5:10

If I had known that the last time I had

5:13

sex was going to be the last time I had

5:15

sex, I would have looked at the penis a bit

5:17

more. I would have waved it off

5:19

like a woman saying goodbye to her lover in 1941 before

5:21

he went to

5:24

war never to be seen again. Not

5:28

having sex seems to be taboo. In

5:30

theory, I don't think it should be, but

5:32

based on people's facial expressions when I tell them,

5:35

it is. What? How?

5:38

They ask, horrified, as

5:41

if that's not exactly the same question I

5:43

have for them when they tell me they

5:45

recently had sex. How?

5:48

How did you do that? I

5:51

have a friend who had sex with her Uber driver last week.

5:54

Another had sex with her boss. People

5:56

seem to meet in all kinds of places and I

5:58

don't know what happens between... Hello, my

6:00

name is, and shall

6:03

we have sex now? So

6:05

when I want to ask how, I mean

6:09

psychologically how, particularly if

6:11

you have been existing in the world as

6:13

an outcast or a target. Girls

6:16

are sexualized before they become women. Trans

6:19

bodies can often be made to feel like

6:21

cages. Black bodies are subject

6:23

to violence. The patriarchy rapes

6:25

and we're all taught to hate our

6:27

bodies for various reasons. Aside

6:30

from this, most of us will

6:32

have experienced heartbreak, mistrust, feeling

6:34

unsafe. So

6:36

many of us are suffering

6:39

from depression, anxiety, PTSD, OCD

6:41

and more. And

6:43

while I grew up in Denmark, I have lived in

6:45

the UK for long enough to know that you people

6:48

here are mildly

6:50

sexually repressed. So

6:53

how do you just do it? How

6:56

did I just do it? I

7:00

would, in theory, like to have sex.

7:03

I have a sex drive. I

7:05

like old awesomes. I like being

7:07

touched. Sometimes

7:09

I try. I sign up

7:11

for dating apps and I swipe yes

7:13

please to anyone who feels safe. Which

7:16

is, let's be honest, not that

7:18

many. Sometimes I get

7:20

a match. I will open strong.

7:23

They reply and a wave

7:26

of discomfort overwhelms me. My

7:29

abdomen feels tight. I start to sweat.

7:32

My eyelids are heavy and I don't want

7:34

to have sex anymore. I

7:36

delete the app and get into bed under my

7:38

duvet where it's safe. And I stay

7:40

there. Unsexed

7:43

and unfucked. And then

7:45

it's suddenly been nearly a decade and I wonder

7:47

what is happening to me and why. I

7:51

try to explain it to my friends. It's

7:54

been a while since I had sex. I

7:56

begin. I haven't had sex

7:58

for two months. My friend

8:00

exclaims hopelessly with a sigh. I'm

8:04

surprised she's even capable of

8:06

breathing, let alone speaking, after

8:08

suffering from such intense deprivation.

8:12

Me neither, I say.

8:14

It's true. So many

8:16

two months have gone by. She

8:19

shakes her head. It's

8:21

so frustrating. She

8:23

continues to swipe through her tinder matches, unmatched

8:25

with people if they wear the wrong shoes.

8:29

Meanwhile, I don't remember ever having standards.

8:32

I have never known how to say no, so I

8:35

have done some utterly appalling things. I

8:38

once fucked a man in a bush who had

8:40

a pregnant fiancé at home, because he

8:42

pointed at the bush and said, Wanna fuck

8:44

in that bush? And I simply nodded

8:46

because, what else do you say? Hindsight

8:50

is beautiful, isn't it? No

8:52

thank you, is what you say. You

8:54

say, no thank you, I will not be

8:56

having sex with a drunk, engaged, mediocre comedian

8:58

in a bush, which will later turn out

9:01

to have been not much more than a

9:03

lone ficus, in central Copenhagen on a Tuesday.

9:07

What I'm saying is, what shoes

9:09

people are wearing is clearly not going to

9:11

be what keeps me from sleeping with them.

9:15

So what is the obstacle? Learning

9:19

to love my body is a tricky journey,

9:21

but it's easy compared with learning to trust

9:23

that other people can love it. When

9:26

it's just my mirror and me, I can

9:29

look at my fat stomach, fat thighs and

9:31

my double chin, and I can love them

9:33

with all my heart. Trusting

9:35

that there is someone out there who

9:37

would also love my fat stomach, fat

9:39

thighs and double chin is a whole

9:41

different battle. I

9:44

grew up watching shows like Friends, where

9:46

fat Monica is the butt of the

9:48

joke, and Desperate Housewives, where Gabi tricks

9:51

her chubby daughter into running next to

9:53

her car because she wants her to

9:55

lose weight. The same anti-fat

9:57

message has been drilled into me.

10:00

from the moment I could understand words.

10:02

And even in the past 10 years, when

10:05

I have been actively working on unlearning it,

10:08

it still appears in the comments under my

10:10

posts on the internet. There

10:13

is also the fact that my relationship history

10:16

has been littered with men who have kept

10:18

me a secret because I'm fat or because

10:20

they have had wives or girlfriends. Their

10:22

girlfriends were always thin. I was

10:25

once waiting at a bus stop late at night

10:27

and a guy stopped his bicycle to talk to

10:29

me. He looked excited to

10:31

see me, like a little boy at the

10:33

zoo seeing a giraffe for the first time.

10:36

He asked for my number so enthusiastically that I

10:38

gave it to him. As

10:41

he called the number to check I had given

10:43

him the correct one, he said, this is great!

10:46

I just got engaged but I've never tried

10:48

sleeping with one of your kind before so

10:50

I want to try that before I get

10:52

married. I

10:54

never did sleep with him but I wonder

10:56

if the difference between him and many of the

10:59

people I did sleep with was that he was

11:01

upfront about it. The others,

11:03

those who claimed they were stuck in

11:05

loveless relationships and that, in time, we

11:07

would be together, probably knew that it

11:10

was never going to happen or perhaps

11:12

they believed the lie too. The

11:16

truth is the underlying insecurity that comes

11:18

from an entire lifetime of fat phobia

11:20

is a huge part of the reason

11:22

I have behaved in ways I do

11:25

not like. I have

11:27

never wanted to be the person someone

11:29

cheats with. I have never

11:31

wanted to sleep with people I do not fully

11:33

respect but the vice in my

11:35

head, the one that refuses to let

11:38

go of the fat phobic statements will

11:40

whisper things such as, but what

11:42

if this is your last chance to have sex? What

11:45

if he is the only one who wants you? I have

11:48

definitely made bad decisions out of desperation.

11:52

Desperation to be loved and wanted. There

11:56

Have also been times when it has felt as if

11:58

the bad decisions were made for me. In.

12:01

My early twenties, I remember passing a bottle

12:03

of rum to my friends Sally, who would

12:05

slug it and pass it to her friend

12:07

Eric. He would take a sip and pass

12:09

it to me. It. Wasn't

12:11

until the next day I realized that.

12:14

I. Only assumed they drank from the

12:16

buddle to. In fact,

12:18

they hadn't. That. Is

12:20

how I ended up drinking and entire bottle

12:23

of rum while Eric i'm Sally remained in

12:25

control of their minds and bodies. I

12:27

was a two runs. Being.

12:30

Fat and caught hardened by the Danish

12:32

drinking culture. Meant. That I still had

12:34

some of my consciousness left. Sally.

12:37

Left the set winking at me and Eric as

12:39

if this whole thing had been a set up

12:41

for us to hook up. I

12:44

remember lying down on his bed and

12:46

grabbing my phone. I. Sent myself

12:48

a text that says. He.

12:50

Has Lps on the shelf, a

12:52

blanket from Ikea, and you have

12:55

very drink. A

12:57

few seconds later, I received that

12:59

text. Good. I thought

13:01

I've informed myself of what's happening

13:03

here. I.

13:05

Remember gathering all my strength to focus

13:07

on saying one sentence and on saying

13:09

it with as much force as possible.

13:12

Whatever. Happens. I.

13:14

Do Not want to have sex.

13:18

Eric. Who is now lying next to me? Started.

13:21

Sulking. Come. On he

13:24

said. That. He pout

13:26

or am I just imagining that? Now

13:28

in retrospect, I do know

13:30

that he would not stop pleading. Come.

13:32

On. Please. I just

13:35

want to go down on you. I

13:37

love going down on women. Come on

13:39

Please let me. I

13:42

said no. And I qualified my

13:44

No. I do not want to. Besides.

13:48

Sally and I have been on a to date

13:50

drinking tour of Copenhagen. I haven't

13:52

slept and I certainly haven't showered. Eric.

13:56

Kept pushing me. Come. On

13:58

a really really wants. I

14:00

promise it's fine. I don't care

14:03

how it looks or smells or

14:05

tastes, I just love it. Sign.

14:08

My. Resistance was bothering him and

14:10

I felt guilty. I

14:13

stumbled into the bathroom where a try to wash

14:15

my vagina over the sink as well as I

14:17

could. I walked back into his

14:19

room and laid down on the bed. He

14:21

plays himself between my legs and began doing

14:24

what I had specifically asked him not to

14:26

do only a few minutes earlier. Then.

14:28

He quit his stopped and pull away. You

14:31

that tastes disgusting? Oh god he

14:33

said and lay down next to

14:35

me. My. Entire

14:37

body recoiled and same. The.

14:39

Room that had been spinning around me came

14:41

to a sobering hold. I wanted

14:44

to leave my body float out of the

14:46

room and never return. He

14:49

then had sex with me. I don't

14:51

remember anything about says other than that had

14:53

happened. I. Woke up the next

14:55

day and grabbed my bag and my clothes. I

14:58

didn't as a get dressed in case he woke

15:00

up. And said I put

15:02

my clothes on in a snowy Copenhagen

15:04

street in late December. I

15:07

met up with Sally to go over what happened.

15:09

We. Talk about it as if it was a

15:12

consensual pleasant hook up. With. Giggled and

15:14

discussed whether or not Eric like he

15:16

likes me. I didn't tell

15:18

her about his com and about my vagina. I

15:20

didn't sell any one for over a decade. Nor.

15:23

Did I lead anyone's face near my

15:25

vagina? Either didn't tell her

15:27

that I had said no to the sex

15:29

or I did tell her and we laughed

15:31

at how funny it was to make such

15:34

a comment. It

15:36

would be years before I realized that it

15:38

had most likely been planned. That.

15:41

Cel. He had brought me to a friend's place that

15:43

they had decided to get me drunk enough so that

15:45

she could leave me with him so he could have

15:47

sex with me. I. Learned that

15:50

later that cel, he was

15:52

psychologically slightly unwell, which is

15:54

my attempt at not pocket

15:56

diagnosing someone. of cause

15:58

i can't know for sure Perhaps

16:00

it was just Eric's doing. Perhaps

16:02

there was no plan. Eric

16:05

probably didn't plan on raping anyone that

16:07

night. And perhaps he

16:09

still doesn't think he has raped anyone.

16:13

A couple of months later, Eric texted me and asked

16:15

if I wanted to go on a date. We

16:18

hadn't spoken since that night. I

16:20

said yes and got ready. Did

16:22

my hair, makeup, the whole thing. I

16:25

went from my flat in West Copenhagen to a

16:27

street corner in South Copenhagen to wait for him.

16:31

I don't recall how long I stood there before I

16:33

realized it was a prank. He didn't

16:35

reply to my messages after that and I never saw him

16:37

again. I felt stupid for falling

16:40

for it. It wasn't

16:42

until much later, when I began to reframe

16:44

the night in question as rape instead of

16:47

drunken sex, that I began to feel

16:49

stupid for agreeing to a date with

16:51

my rapist. It's

16:54

challenging to write about rape that occurred in

16:56

2008. The

16:58

way we discuss sexual assault, rape and

17:00

consent as a society has

17:03

changed dramatically and so

17:05

has my own definition of it. When

17:07

I was 10 years old, I remember being

17:10

told that rapists hid in bushes and would

17:12

jump out and attack you if you walked

17:14

past. My grandfather told me

17:16

in no uncertain terms that if ever

17:18

someone tried to rape me, I should

17:21

kick them in the dick or bite it off. I

17:24

remember nodding and saying, okay, and

17:26

immediately internalizing the idea that if I

17:28

was raped and didn't end up with

17:30

a bloody penis in my mouth, I

17:33

probably should have thought harder and so it

17:35

was my fault. I

17:38

did not at the time consider that what

17:40

happened with Eric was rape and

17:42

even now I struggled to refer to it as

17:45

such. And yet if a friend

17:47

had told me the same story, that is exactly

17:49

what I would have called it. I

17:51

would have worn a t-shirt that said, shut

17:53

up, you were raped. You didn't do this

17:55

to yourself. He is a bad man until

17:57

she accepted it. But

18:00

it's not someone else, it's me. And

18:03

I had this deep lurking feeling that people

18:05

would get mad at me if I called it

18:07

rape? That I should

18:10

take responsibility for drinking so much? For

18:12

giving in? For not

18:15

fighting him physically? I

18:17

changed his name and there is no way

18:19

for anyone to trace this story back to the

18:21

real person behind it. And yet

18:24

I feel guilty for telling it.

18:26

What if it makes him sad? I

18:30

am endlessly more protective of the men who

18:32

assaulted me, attempted to assault

18:34

me or emotionally abused me than

18:36

I ever have felt of myself in situations

18:39

with men. I have

18:41

reluctantly said yes to sex, even

18:43

though I did not want to, because the

18:45

guy wanted to and I did not want to make

18:47

him sad. I didn't want to

18:49

be a prude or a tease. Besides

18:53

I knew that a no would be up

18:55

for debate. But

18:57

they'd start. You said you would.

19:00

You were flirting with me. You

19:02

went home with me. You slept

19:04

with my friend. You're fat

19:06

you can't play hard to get. I

19:08

came all this way. I

19:10

really really want to. All

19:12

of which are sentences I have genuinely heard

19:15

after saying no to sex. My

19:17

boundaries became a hurdle to leap.

19:21

Still, I do want the sex life. I

19:24

want a happy, healthy, joyful sex life.

19:28

So I wrote a book about it. About

19:30

everything that stands between us and

19:32

sex. And as I was

19:35

about halfway through writing it, I got

19:37

scared. I was afraid that I

19:39

would discover that I was alone in this, that I

19:41

was a bit of a freak, and

19:43

that I am very broken in a very

19:45

specific way, which would prove

19:48

to be both unfixable and unrelatable.

19:50

I nearly let this thought stop me from finishing the

19:52

book. Then on

19:54

a whim, I posted on social media, Hey,

19:57

I feel like there is a big obstacle

19:59

to it. between me and sex, can

20:01

anyone relate? Within 48 hours

20:04

I had received 1800 responses, from people

20:08

of all ages, genders and backgrounds, from

20:10

all over the world, and I realized

20:12

that even though none of us had

20:15

the exact same experiences, trauma

20:17

plays a big part in everyone's

20:19

stories. Out

20:22

of the 1800 submissions, a

20:24

total of 30 did

20:26

not include a sexual assault of

20:28

some kind, from being

20:31

flashed at by a stranger on a

20:33

bus to being repeatedly

20:35

and systematically raped. They showed

20:37

me that almost all of us

20:40

have experienced something that overstepped their

20:42

personal boundaries. For

20:45

this book, as well as reading

20:47

these submissions, I spoke to a

20:49

relationship and sex therapist, a

20:51

sex educator, a drag

20:53

king, comedians, a fratologist,

20:56

sex workers, porn stars, trans activists

20:58

and writers to get to the

21:00

root of the many obstacles to

21:03

a satisfying sex life. It

21:05

would be oversimplifying it to say that

21:07

it's all about trauma. I've

21:09

also had to come face to face with

21:12

my gender experience. How

21:14

my new found non-binaryness makes

21:16

me feel quite confused. How

21:19

do I have sex without all the

21:21

gendered sexual scripts? Not to

21:23

mention my queerness, or rather my being

21:25

a 35 year old queer person

21:28

who has only ever slept with

21:30

cis penises. On

21:32

top of everything, I am socially awkward

21:34

and often diagnosed by the internet as

21:36

autistic. But interrogating

21:38

my traumatic experiences and trauma

21:41

in general, including from childhood,

21:43

is my first and

21:45

hardest step towards figuring

21:47

all of this out. In

21:50

exploring this in therapy, things began to make

21:52

sense. There is

21:54

something about sex and intimacy that feels

21:57

Threatening to me, or unsafe.

22:00

Oh dangerous. So my nervous system

22:02

gets this regulated and I go

22:04

into shut down mode. This.

22:06

Has happened so many times before. And

22:09

there's something oddly calming about knowing what

22:11

went on in my body in these

22:13

situations. I. Feel privileged that I've

22:16

been able to get help with this. Sometimes.

22:20

I try to imagine what a future

22:22

sexual encounter might look like. If.

22:24

I take on board everything I have learned so

22:26

far. I. Can already immediately

22:28

rule out picking up a stranger in

22:30

a bar. It. Would have to be

22:32

with someone I already knew a bit in order

22:35

to feel safe. I would make

22:37

sure to check in with myself. To. I

22:39

want to have sex. And if

22:41

I don't feel present enough in my body to

22:43

know the answer, it isn't know. And. I

22:45

will be brave enough to say no to whom

22:48

ever I am with. Because. I

22:50

no longer suffer fools this particular person

22:52

that be very cool with it. They.

22:55

Will say something like. That's okay,

22:57

I am happy enough just stroking

22:59

your arm for hours. And.

23:01

Also my name is Leah Deloria and

23:03

I played pool on Orange is the

23:06

New Black and I will now marry

23:08

you. Shut up. It's

23:10

my fantasy. I

23:12

suspect I will eventually feel quite safe

23:14

with this person. Safe.

23:17

Enough that I can exist in my body without

23:19

feeling scared. Then. I

23:21

might feel turned on and ready to

23:23

have sex. I will

23:25

communicate this like a grown up

23:27

adult would and s we go,

23:30

I will continue to stay present

23:32

and communicate. And. Listen the signs

23:34

from myself or from them. Body.

23:36

Language Eye contact. And

23:39

hey, if I no longer want to have

23:41

sex, I will simply say hey, can we

23:43

take a break. And. Leah will

23:45

say. Of cause I want you

23:47

to be comfortable. And we will

23:49

spoon instead. All. The while I

23:52

am listening to my body and my desires.

23:54

I. Set my boundaries and I in

23:56

the moment. this

23:59

sounds like what sex is meant to be.

24:02

I have never had that sex

24:04

before. But if

24:06

I am ever to have sex again, it is

24:09

the kind of sex I want. That

24:14

was I haven't had

24:16

sex in 3,089 days.

24:19

Comedian Sophie Hagen on being

24:21

celibate for more than eight years. Written

24:24

and read by Sophie Hagen. Will

24:27

I ever have sex again? Written and read by Sophie

24:29

Hagen. Comes out on the 23rd

24:31

of May. Will Report The Guardian

24:33

and Observer. Order your quadlog from

24:36

guardianbookshop.com. If

24:38

you've been affected by any of the issues raised

24:40

in this episode, we have included

24:42

details of help plans you can contact on

24:45

the episode page at the guardian.com.

24:48

We're going to take a short break now. We'll

24:50

be back with the second half of this episode

24:53

in a moment. Don't go anywhere. Ready

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awards. Only at Sleep Number stores

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or sleepnumber.com. Sometimes

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even a bit incomprehensible. They

26:25

talked about the fact that

26:27

they were not even able

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to speak. To

26:31

help keep Susan wise, Politics Week the

26:34

UK is introducing a new episode with

26:36

me, Pippa Carrara, the Guardian's political editor

26:38

and our political husband, Andrew and Stacy.

26:41

We'll be bringing you all the insight you

26:43

need from Westminster to kick off your walk.

26:46

Join us this Sunday where we'll be chewing

26:48

over the fallout from the local elections. Subscribe

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to Politics Week the UK wherever you

26:54

get your part. Welcome

27:05

back to Weekend. Now,

27:09

a large takeaway flat white will already set

27:11

you back £5.19 in London and other cities

27:16

aren't far behind. But

27:18

if cafe owners aren't getting rid of our

27:20

caffeine habit, who is

27:22

our Shireen Carla? Red,

27:25

Berkeley and Prendergast. It

27:30

was one of those London Museum

27:32

cafes where buggies block the entrance and

27:35

children trail veggie straws across the

27:37

floor. The queue of

27:39

parents stretched to the door and the

27:42

staff appeared frazzled. I

27:44

ordered an iced oat milk latte.

27:47

That will be £4.50, said the

27:49

server. I remember the

27:51

sensations that follow acutely. Shock!

27:56

How much? Regret? I don't

27:59

want it. self-recrimination,

28:01

why didn't I check the price? Embarrassment?

28:05

If I say I don't want it, everyone

28:07

will hear. Acceptance. I'll

28:10

pay for it, but I'm never ordering

28:12

here again. I

28:15

drank every sip of the coffee, waited

28:17

for the ice to melt, and drank that

28:19

too. I was out of sorts

28:22

for the rest of the day. It

28:25

wasn't that I hadn't noticed coffee getting

28:27

more expensive. Prices had

28:30

uniformly become £3

28:32

something, and £4 plus prices were

28:34

not uncommon. But £4.50 stung

28:36

because it was almost

28:40

£5, a

28:42

ludicrous sum I thought, to pay

28:44

for a take-away coffee. And

28:48

yet the era of the £5 coffee

28:52

is upon us. In

28:54

London branches of black sheep coffee,

28:56

a nation-wide chain, a

28:58

large flat white is £5.19.

29:02

Go into many London coffee shops, add

29:04

an extra shot to your order, or

29:07

non-dairy milk or ice, and you'll easily

29:09

pay upwards of £4.50 for your drink.

29:13

Where the capital goes, the rest of the

29:15

UK follows. We're two

29:18

to three years away from £5 being

29:20

routine for a standard coffee, says

29:23

Geoffrey Young, the CEO and founder

29:26

of the Allegra Group, which analyses

29:28

the sector. Certainly we'll

29:30

see it in the next five years

29:32

without any doubt. A

29:35

perfect blend of factors means that having

29:38

a coffee out is more expensive than

29:40

ever. First, the beans.

29:43

We are in a situation of very low

29:45

stocks in the US and Europe, exacerbated

29:48

by the Red Sea being

29:50

blocked, says Carlos Mira, head

29:52

of the Agri Commodities Markets

29:54

team at Robabank. A

29:57

lot of coffee comes from Vietnam to Europe,

29:59

and that now needs a much

30:01

longer transit time. Brazil

30:03

and Vietnam, the world's largest

30:05

and second largest producers of

30:08

coffee, have experienced adverse weather.

30:10

In 2021, Brazil had a major frost, while

30:14

Vietnam is in the grip of a drought. As

30:18

a result, at the time of writing, Robusta

30:21

futures were trading at $4,178 per metric tonne,

30:23

the highest ever price for the coffee beans

30:29

that make up approximately 40%

30:32

at the world's consumption. Meanwhile,

30:35

Arabica futures prices have been higher

30:37

only a handful of times in

30:39

the past half century. There

30:42

is not much unsold coffee left

30:45

in Vietnam, says Mira. Prices

30:47

may yet increase further before the end

30:50

of the year, as European

30:52

roasteries attempt to import

30:54

beans before scheduled EU

30:56

deforestation legislation. Coffee

30:59

production is also likely to be

31:01

severely affected by the climate crisis,

31:05

with researchers suggesting that it might halve

31:07

the area of land suitable for growing

31:09

beans in coming decades. But

31:13

the beans are only a small fraction of

31:15

the cost of a cup. Inflation

31:19

in the UK began rising in earnest in

31:21

early 2021, fuelled

31:23

by the war in Ukraine, as

31:25

well as the long tail of Brexit

31:27

and Covid. It peaked at 11.1%

31:29

in October 2022, a 41-year high

31:35

before falling, it now

31:37

stands at 3.2%. Coffee

31:40

shops, which use electricity and

31:42

raw materials such as wheat,

31:45

cocoa, milk and eggs, all

31:47

vastly more expensive and which

31:49

were pre-Brexit, often reliant on

31:52

European labour, have been severely

31:54

affected. Everything

31:57

that could possibly have gone up in terms of the

31:59

base of the world. costs of a coffee

32:01

shop has gone up by around 20% in

32:04

the last two years, says Young. Equipment

32:07

has gone up, labour costs have

32:09

gone up substantially, milk has gone

32:12

up, packaging has gone up, electricity

32:14

and utilities have gone up, insurance

32:17

has gone up. Only

32:19

commercial rents have remained relatively

32:22

stagnant. According

32:24

to data from the Office for National

32:26

Statistics, a cup of coffee purchased from

32:29

a restaurant or cafe in March 2024

32:31

is 19% more expensive than two years

32:33

previously. Consumers

32:39

are adjusting their habits accordingly.

32:42

Our research shows that fewer

32:44

people brought drinks in-store at

32:46

coffee shops in October 2023

32:49

compared with the previous year, 83% versus

32:52

89% in October

32:55

2022, says Trish

32:57

Caddy of the research agency

32:59

Mintel, although more people

33:01

are buying takeaway coffees from kiosks

33:04

and drive-throughs, which tend to be

33:06

cheaper. I

33:09

don't mind spending money, but I

33:11

hate wasting it, says

33:13

Georgia Williams, aged 28, a

33:16

partnerships manager from London. Williams

33:18

recently spent £9.10 on two coffees from

33:21

a local cafe.

33:24

She only realised how much they had

33:27

cost when she saw the Monzo notification

33:29

on her phone. The coffees

33:31

were delicious, but in future she'll

33:33

make them at home using her

33:35

mocha pot. Buying coffee

33:37

out will be a special treat in

33:39

the future, she says. It

33:43

is this exact situation that Paul

33:45

Ashby, aged 44, a coffee shop

33:47

co-owner from Leaton Buzzard, fears.

33:51

If I raise my prices, hoping to get

33:53

more revenue, am I shooting myself in the

33:56

foot because you're not

33:58

coming in as frequently? Here's the story. asks.

34:01

We are meeting in one of the three

34:03

coffee shops he co-owns the Bogota

34:05

Coffee Company in central

34:07

Milton Keynes. It is

34:10

a warm and inviting wood-panelled

34:12

space that serves single-origin Colombian

34:15

coffee. The week before I

34:17

visit, Ashby put prices up by about

34:19

10%. A flat white has gone up

34:22

from £3.20 to

34:25

£3.50. It's a big

34:27

jump, he says, but unavoidable.

34:30

His costs have gone up 17% in

34:33

the past year. The

34:36

coffee industry has been seen

34:38

as recession-proof because it's so

34:40

low-spend, says Ashby. But

34:43

because that spend is getting higher,

34:45

we can't say it's bullet-proof anymore.

34:47

That's the worry. Ashby

34:50

places a coffee cup in front of me. On

34:53

it, he has written out his costs for a £3.50 flat

34:56

white. 70 pence

34:58

goes to VAT, 25p for corporation

35:01

tax, 50p for rent, 35p for

35:03

wages, 27p

35:07

for coffee beans, 15p for milk,

35:09

15p for utilities, and 7p for the

35:12

cup, lid and sleeve, leaving £1.06

35:14

profit. I

35:17

visit on Monday the quietest day of the

35:19

week. In the hour I spend

35:21

there, I estimate that 20 people

35:23

buy coffees equating to about £21 profit. I

35:25

do not want people to think

35:30

I'm pleading poverty because I'm not,

35:32

says Ashby. But this is a

35:35

lifestyle business. If you're

35:37

hoping to get rich out of it, you're not

35:39

going to. It's

35:42

easy for independent operators to get

35:44

into a financial mess. A one-off

35:47

independent is often a passion

35:49

project, says Young. They don't have

35:51

the cost controls a large-scale

35:53

operator can put in place. They

35:56

don't have the marketing reach. They are not in

35:58

the highest footprint. for

36:00

locations because landlords can't take

36:02

the risk. It's very hard

36:05

to make money. Despite

36:08

not having the same economies of scale,

36:11

independent coffee shops have to match

36:13

or even undercut the major brands.

36:16

The chains set the price, says

36:19

Professor Jonathan Morris of the

36:21

University of Hertfordshire, the

36:23

author of Coffee, a Global History,

36:26

and the host of a podcast

36:28

called A History of Coffee. Many

36:32

of the chains have put up

36:34

prices by above inflation in recent

36:36

years, sometimes by startling amounts. Well-established

36:39

brands with strong pricing power

36:41

have been able to raise

36:44

menu prices without losing market

36:46

share, particularly among 16-34 year

36:49

olds who are willing to pay more

36:51

for their favourite brands like Costa Coffee

36:54

and Starbucks, says Caddy. According

36:58

to data collected by the

37:00

coffee retailer UCC, a

37:02

medium latte in Buckinghamshire branches of Starbucks

37:04

went up from £3.20 in January 2023

37:06

to £4.50 in January 2024, a

37:14

40% increase. The

37:16

fact is, the independents don't have the

37:18

confidence to charge what they should be

37:21

charging to have a commercial business, says

37:23

Young, whereas the likes

37:25

of Costa, Starbucks and Nero are

37:28

charging what they need to charge.

37:32

The Bogota Coffee Company remains profitable

37:34

because it has a well-established customer

37:37

base, many of whom Ashby knows

37:39

by name and because he

37:41

is on top of his costs. We

37:44

don't waste anything, he says.

37:46

We know exactly how much to put out

37:49

on the counter every day, we

37:51

know exactly how much milk to

37:53

order. But

37:56

Even the most well-operated and beloved coffee

37:58

shops can found us. I'm

38:01

can look down liberal right? It.

38:03

Was never going to be a business. You can

38:05

retire early on. But. We were

38:08

okay, says Sharon Henderson, aged

38:10

forty four from Kings when

38:12

said near Dudley. Henderson

38:14

open the Red com coffee house.

38:16

In words, Li and Twenty Thirteen

38:19

She's previously owned and sold a

38:21

successful coffee shop in kinda that.

38:24

I went in with knowledge and

38:26

experience. she says. The. Red

38:28

Cone was a charming rustic can

38:30

say known for it's cakes in

38:32

particular. We. Baked everything in

38:35

house she says proudly in the

38:37

tiniest gets in you've ever seen.

38:41

The red cone was within a

38:44

heritage attraction. It relied

38:46

on tour groups which cozied

38:48

decimated. Then came the

38:50

cost of Living crisis. Anderson's

38:53

electricity bill tripled overnight. A

38:56

single egg went. From six pay

38:58

to twenty pay. We.

39:00

Couldn't pass those increases on

39:02

she says so we will

39:04

always absorbing the costs. She

39:07

put a prices but. There.

39:09

Was a ceiling to look. Customers were prepared

39:12

to pay. To. Make matters

39:14

worse, renovation work began at

39:16

the heritage site and the

39:18

scaffolding put off customers. In

39:22

January, Twenty Twenty Four Henderson

39:24

took the heartbreaking decision to

39:26

close. I try

39:28

to be very dispassionate and unemotional

39:30

about it, which I didn't succeed

39:33

And because. I cried in

39:35

the boss. She felt

39:37

like a failure. It's soul

39:39

destroying. Having. To

39:41

tell her staff they no longer

39:44

had job she says was horrendous.

39:46

They. Were a wonderful. They knew because

39:48

I never kept it secret that I

39:51

had done everything I could. But.

39:53

That was the worst thing. She

39:55

says. The.

39:58

British have earning June. Ring

40:00

love affair with coffee. Dating. Back

40:02

to the sixteen fifties when coffee

40:05

houses arrived in England. They

40:07

spread very rapidly and became

40:09

important space is the socializing

40:11

says maris. A coffee

40:14

houses disappeared in the late eighteenth

40:16

century, been replaced by pubs. Or

40:19

private clubs. That. Was and

40:21

limited revival with Italian style coffee

40:23

bars in the nineteen fifties. But.

40:26

It wasn't until the nineteen nineties

40:28

that coffee shops took off once

40:30

again in the Uk, led by

40:32

chain such a Starbucks, Throughout

40:35

the two thousands, Independence

40:37

pioneered. Australian influence drinks such

40:39

as the flat White. And

40:42

began procuring speciality. Beams.

40:46

According to the A Lead to a

40:48

group, there are now more than twenty

40:50

two thousand coffee shops in the Uk.

40:53

We. Are making a better product says

40:55

young. Customers. Are getting a

40:57

pretty good deal. But.

41:00

Sometimes the experience falls short.

41:03

Selling staff cold coffee

41:05

data tables. This.

41:07

Is Espys pet peeve. You

41:10

go to sit down and it's

41:12

a sticky table. he groans. it's

41:14

the worst. Then

41:16

this happens, particularly if you

41:18

drink as expensive. It transformed

41:20

a restorative ritual into a.

41:22

Frustrating experience. That.

41:25

Is unlikely that outlets like these will

41:27

be winnowed. As price rises

41:29

force customers to think carefully about

41:31

way they spend their money. Independent

41:35

places sometimes take their foot off

41:38

the gas said ashby. Our

41:40

customers still. Having a good experience?

41:42

Are you taking them for granted? Independence

41:46

cannot survive without their regulars.

41:49

He points out a woman by the till. She

41:52

comes every day. He says she's

41:54

a really good customer. If

41:57

we were too upset, her. It. will

41:59

be really does to replace

42:01

that revenue. Larger

42:04

chains can afford unhappy customers

42:06

as attrition is priced in.

42:09

As I was leaving I thought, have I

42:11

just been conned? Nick Green,

42:13

aged 50, lives in Ipswich

42:15

and works for a bank. He

42:18

has just paid £5.19 for a

42:20

large flat white at Black Sheep

42:22

Coffee in the City of London.

42:25

Green placed the order on a touch

42:27

screen menu during the lunchtime rush. I

42:30

looked at the price and thought, is that right?

42:33

He says, but there was a queue

42:35

of people behind me. I didn't want

42:37

to look like an idiot and back out. The

42:41

issue for Green wasn't the cost. It's

42:44

a value thing, he says. I

42:47

wasn't waited on. I didn't get

42:49

a china cup with a little biscuit on it. I

42:52

got a plastic cup with a lid. I

42:55

couldn't see if there was latte art or

42:57

not. I did the work

42:59

myself. I ordered it and queued for

43:01

it and left. The

43:04

best coffee shops are also about

43:07

atmosphere. The hiss of the milk

43:09

steamer, the conversation drifting from other

43:11

tables. You don't

43:13

go to a coffee shop to buy coffee,

43:16

says Morris. You go to the

43:18

coffee shop to buy the experience

43:20

of being in a coffee shop. When

43:24

all that is stripped away, even

43:26

the creamiest latte will leave a bitter

43:29

taste in your mouth. Consumers

43:31

don't tend to complain, they simply

43:33

never come back. You

43:36

literally and figuratively swallow

43:38

it, says Green. Done

43:42

well, coffee shops are vital

43:44

community spaces. Weigh for a

43:46

few pounds, mums with prams

43:48

and pensioners and office workers

43:50

can meet and talk. It's

43:53

a hospitality venue, says Ashby,

43:55

as a milk delivery man arrives and leaves

43:57

with a free coffee and a cheap coffee.

44:01

It's not a coffee shop really, it's

44:03

about coming in and feeling welcomed, about

44:06

having a nice place to go. The

44:10

£5 coffee is coming, perhaps not

44:13

today but soon enough. And

44:15

when it arrives, coffee shops may

44:18

not seem like extensions of our

44:20

living rooms but more rarefied spaces,

44:22

like restaurants or bars. Businesses

44:26

are not ready to pay £5 daily

44:28

for a regular coffee, says Young.

44:31

If they do bork, more well-loved

44:33

independents like the red cone will

44:36

falter. If

44:38

we don't support independent businesses,

44:41

they will be gone, warns Henderson. We

44:44

are open to the elements, we are on

44:46

our own. She

44:48

now works as a baker. It's

44:50

tough out there, and this time

44:52

my business didn't survive, she

44:54

says. Would I do it again? I

44:57

don't know. Coffee

45:00

shops disappeared once before from

45:02

UK shows, in an

45:05

era of capsules, sachets and

45:07

worktop espresso machines with high-quality

45:09

coffee easier than ever to

45:11

make at home. Whether

45:13

the neighbourhood coffee shop will survive the dawn

45:15

of the £5 coffee remains to

45:18

be seen. Coffee's

45:21

always been an affordable luxury,

45:23

Ashby says. You don't really think

45:26

about it, whereas now you

45:28

are thinking about it. And

45:31

that is the problem. That

45:37

was the £5 coffee is coming,

45:39

which should be Swillowit, as

45:41

Shireen Carle agreed, like a

45:44

lean friend has asked. Every

45:47

week, psychotherapist and author, Philippa Perry,

45:49

addresses a personal problem sent in

45:51

by a reader and her Ask

45:54

Philippa column. This week,

45:56

we hear from a woman who is trying to come

45:58

to terms with the estrangement of The

46:00

sibling bread Martha the

46:02

preparing. I

46:09

get a lot of emails from people who

46:11

have. Trouble with their relationships with their

46:13

siblings. And I'm talking about adults here,

46:15

not kids. And. This is such

46:17

an email though. I'm gonna read to you now.

46:20

Since. Our mother's death, my brother

46:22

and I have had no contact.

46:25

He lives more than one hundred

46:27

miles away. Our relationship has been

46:29

very difficult for over forty years.

46:31

When. We both had young children. Things with

46:34

better. For a time. When our

46:36

dad died, months health deteriorated and

46:38

she moved in with me and

46:40

died twelve years later. During.

46:42

This time my relationship with my brother was

46:45

at his worst. Before. Retirement we

46:47

both worked in mental health. But.

46:49

Neither of us understand why our

46:52

family relationships have been so fractured.

46:55

There. Is a family history. Or grandfather

46:57

didn't get on with his sister. He.

47:00

And his wife kept secrets and not

47:02

dad fell out with his twin. A

47:05

childhood was difficult as our father had

47:07

mental health issues. Friends,

47:09

you know the story. Advice be

47:11

not to pursue any reparation. Another

47:14

friend suggested our right to use. Since.

47:17

Mum died, I have sent Christmas

47:20

cards, an occasional tax. But

47:22

have received no reply. Have

47:24

attempted to contact my nephews again,

47:27

to no avail. Should.

47:29

I accept that there is too

47:31

much water under the bridge and

47:33

stop my attempt to contact him.

47:37

On this is what I reply to that person.

47:40

People. Including myself are often

47:42

drawn to work in mental health.

47:44

Precisely. Because they have had their

47:46

battles with it. I'm. Just throwing the

47:49

in the. Children. Do

47:51

seem to carry the baggage of

47:53

their ancestors. Fractures.

47:55

Like the ones you have a history. of in

47:57

your family are often caused by the.

48:00

family's style of parenting, for

48:02

example by parents not taking seriously

48:04

any feelings of jealousy when a

48:06

younger sibling comes along, and not

48:09

intervening, except punitively, when that

48:11

jealousy plays out. Older

48:14

siblings who feel displaced need

48:16

to be dealt with sensitively, and

48:19

if that doesn't happen they may resent

48:21

their younger sibling. After

48:23

a while the younger sibling then grows

48:25

to dislike the elder because of how

48:28

they were habitually treated by their children.

48:30

This may cause them to stay away, perhaps

48:33

without really understanding why that

48:35

is. Another

48:37

parenting style that leads to trouble is

48:40

when one child is pitted against the other,

48:43

perhaps by comparing them or making

48:45

them compete against each other. Overt

48:48

and covert favouritism and making one

48:50

child the scapegoat for any disharmony

48:53

are other habits that can give

48:55

rise to feelings and siblings that

48:57

become so entrenched their unconscious

48:59

inclination is often to stay

49:01

away from their brother or

49:03

sister. Parenting styles

49:05

tend to be inherited if the

49:08

next generation doesn't consciously decide to

49:10

break these patterns with their own

49:12

children. Siblings can

49:15

have very different memories of the

49:17

same events, and it can

49:19

often seem that brother or sister doesn't

49:21

validate their experience. And

49:23

when you're not validated by someone

49:25

important in your life it

49:28

may feel almost as if they were trying

49:30

to wipe you out. Now

49:32

I don't know if any of this is

49:34

a fit for your relationship with your brother

49:36

but I mention it in case it is.

49:40

Even though your brother may have had no

49:42

desire to nurse his mother in her old

49:44

age it may well have

49:46

brought up a very old feeling of

49:48

jealousy inside him because you had her

49:50

all to yourself or perhaps

49:53

he felt guilty about you doing all the

49:55

caring. When we have

49:57

these hostile tendencies towards siblings

50:00

the roots of them can be forgotten, yet

50:02

the feelings can still remain. What

50:05

we often do to make sense of such

50:07

feelings is to get into the habit of

50:09

thinking about our sibling with judgment and

50:12

criticism, and so sometimes it

50:14

just feels easier to stay away. We

50:17

are closest to the people

50:19

in whose company we feel

50:21

relaxed and unselfconscious. Then

50:24

we feel good in ourselves when we are with

50:26

them. If being around

50:28

someone causes us to feel shame, it

50:31

is normal to avoid them. People

50:33

often feel shame that they have a sibling

50:36

who isn't a friend, because they

50:38

feel they should have a close relationship

50:40

with them. Lack of

50:42

understanding causes shame, so if

50:45

you can't figure out why you feel as

50:47

you do towards a sibling, perhaps this is

50:49

a source of shame too. And

50:52

if you're feeling any shame because your

50:54

brother is staying away, then you can

50:56

tell your inner critic, the usual source

50:58

of shame, to pipe down. You

51:01

and your brother may be very different people

51:03

despite coming from the same family and having

51:05

had similar jobs. Would

51:08

you be friends if you were not siblings? Do

51:11

you have different ways of looking at and

51:13

reacting to the world that don't make you

51:16

particularly compatible? Or perhaps you

51:18

just don't get each other? Seeking

51:21

reparation may be too ambitious, but

51:23

perhaps you could seek more clarity.

51:26

Perhaps you could tell him that you

51:28

want to further your understanding of the

51:31

rift, so you could stop ruminating about

51:33

it. Warning, tough feedback

51:35

might be involved. Perhaps

51:38

send this column to him. Work

51:40

out why it matters to you so

51:42

much. Perhaps by

51:45

seeing a psychoanalyst. It

51:47

is common for siblings not to

51:49

be close, and there

51:52

may be no reason why you

51:54

should be. That

51:59

was AARON I've

52:01

lost contact with my brother. Is it

52:03

too late to reach him? Read

52:05

by Philippa Perry Now,

52:09

if you listen to Politics Weekly UK,

52:12

you might want to know The Guardian

52:14

is introducing new episodes with Pippa

52:17

Creira, The Guardian's political editor and

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political correspondent Kieran Stacey. They'll be

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bringing you all the insight you

52:23

need from Westminster to kick off your week.

52:26

The first episode is out this Sunday, where

52:28

they'll be chewing over the fallout from the

52:30

local elections. Subscribe to

52:32

Politics Weekly UK wherever you get

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your podcasts. New

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episodes will be published every Monday. That's

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all from us. This has

52:43

been Weekend, a Guardian Podcast. If

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you're enjoying it, please make sure to

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Maybe even leave us a nice review or

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53:00

These week's articles are read by

53:02

Colleen Prendergast, Sophie Hagen and Philippa

53:05

Perry and presented by me

53:07

Savannah Aode-Grieves. This episode was produced

53:09

by Rachel Porter. The executive

53:11

producer is Ellie Burey. Join us

53:13

again next Saturday. Thanks for

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