0:00

This. Is the Guardian. Of

0:02

about a little. While.

0:09

Can to weekend a podcast the helps

0:11

you switch off from you're busy day

0:13

to day and find entertainment and inspiration

0:15

in the best God you're an observer

0:18

Writing from the week. Coming

0:21

up for camera in these dark

0:23

times, let us be grateful for

0:25

the ludicrous spectacle of the Met

0:27

gonna at is Marina Hide. Actor:

0:30

Just a corner on gardening

0:32

reluctant stardom. I'm getting whipped

0:34

for challenges. From do

0:36

Scrolling to Sex Catherine Car expose what

0:39

it means to be a boy in

0:41

Twenty Twenty four and I have no

0:43

children and have started to fit my

0:45

legacy. What can I do? Military

0:48

response to one reduced I lemme.

0:57

This is Page, the co host of Giggly

0:59

Squad and I want to tell you about

1:01

a company that I've been lobbying Olive in

1:03

June. Alvin June gives you everything that you

1:06

need for a salon quality manicure in one

1:08

box and if you break it down it

1:10

really comes out to two dollars a manicure

1:12

which is absolutely insane. It's also so easy

1:14

to get salon where the nails at home.

1:16

With All in June, the difference between how

1:18

your nails used to luck when you did

1:20

them yourself and now with the Manny system

1:22

is a complete game changer. The best thing

1:24

about all of in June Two is it's

1:26

a quick dry. Dry isn't about one

1:29

minute last for five days and

1:31

full coverage in up to one

1:33

to two coats. Visit alvinjune.com/perfect Manny

1:35

Twenty for twenty percent off your

1:37

first system. That's all of in

1:39

june.com/perfect Manny Twenty Four Twenty percent

1:42

off your first system. It's

1:45

that time as a year your

1:48

vacation is coming out. He can

1:50

already hear the beach waves. Feel

1:52

that warned of rings? Relax

1:55

and think about work

1:57

you really really want.

2:00

it all to work out while you're away. monday.com

2:02

gives you and the team that peace of mind. When

2:05

all work is on one platform and everyone's

2:07

in sync, things just flow. Wherever

2:09

you are, tap the banner to go

2:11

to monday.com. Just

2:22

a warning, there's a bit of bad language in this

2:24

episode. More. Roll

2:26

up for a buffet of baffling outfits,

2:29

celebs scared stiff of Anna Wintour and

2:31

an utter refusal to acknowledge the outside

2:34

world. It's the Met Gala and

2:36

it's a hot mess. Bring it

2:38

on, says Marina Hyde. Read

2:40

by Evelyn Miller. Tuesday

2:43

is officially the morning after the

2:45

Met Gala of the night before,

2:48

when we civilians get to press

2:50

our noses up against the glass

2:52

of our phone screens and pass

2:54

unsparing judgement on dresses whose trains

2:57

alone cost more than HS2. If

3:01

you haven't sat in mismatched pyjamas

3:03

huffing toast while remarking what an

3:05

unacceptable misstep Lana Del Rey's mosquito

3:08

net was and how Chanel seems

3:10

to be going tits up, then

3:13

you have simply failed to capitalise on

3:15

the digital banquet spread out for you.

3:18

These are dark times, and

3:20

nothing but gratitude, I

3:23

think, should be shown for film

3:25

director Taika Waititi's decision to come

3:27

dressed as a brown, clever three-piece

3:29

suite, while his wife, Rita

3:31

Ora, presented as the ribbon curtain tacked

3:33

over their back door to keep the

3:36

flies off it. Despite,

3:40

and indeed because of, its

3:42

best efforts not to be, the Met

3:44

Gala often feels like a spectacle stage

3:46

for the tricker-toos camping out round the

3:48

bottom of the guillotine. This

3:51

is an event where even

3:54

Lauren Sanchez, helicopter-piloting faux-lanthropist and

3:56

fiancé of Amazon founder Jeff

3:58

Bezos, had to silently

4:01

swallow her debut being marked by

4:03

a rash of stories alleging she

4:05

had such poor taste that Met

4:07

Gala organisers were having to supervise

4:10

her dress choice. Lauren

4:12

eventually showed up on Monday in

4:14

court ordered monochrome. I

4:16

didn't want people saying about so

4:18

Lauren sexy low cut, she explained

4:20

defeatedly to reporters. Elsewhere,

4:24

the mob has been well-sated

4:26

by the site of Manchurian-Ozimpic

4:28

spokesmodel Kim Kardashian, corseting down

4:30

her waist to around the

4:33

10 centimetre mark, and

4:35

possibly spared the job of an execution.

4:38

If Kim's squeezed middle appears

4:40

alarming in still photographs, it

4:42

looks positively disturbing in the

4:44

moving footage, as the apex

4:47

predator of the red carpet totters and

4:49

lurches before the photographers, looking

4:51

for all the world like she could

4:53

pass out if she doesn't make it

4:56

up the Met Museum's front stairs and

4:58

get loaded straight into a vintage Emerson

5:00

iron lung, full slash winter 1955. From

5:05

prison reform to the perfect nude

5:07

foundation garment, Kim has a number

5:09

of causes close to her heart, but

5:11

not on Met Gala night, when even

5:14

several of her ribs weren't close to

5:16

her heart, and may well have been

5:18

in different zip codes to her heart, either

5:21

squeezed down into the area normally

5:23

occupied by her femurs, or

5:25

possibly being used by God to fashion

5:27

her a help-meet. Were

5:30

Kim to have expired on the

5:33

hallowed carpet, it would surely have

5:35

been for absolutely the only cause

5:37

permitted at the Met Gala, fashion

5:40

itself. Here

5:42

is the sole event in the

5:45

entire showbiz calendar where no celebrity

5:47

would dare to even wear a

5:49

minuscule political pin or ribbon, or

5:52

say one remotely cause-adjacent thing

5:54

during the arrivals process, for

5:57

fear of transgressing the adamantine

5:59

edicts Party Empress on

6:01

a winter. Winter.

6:04

Is the long time Us Vogue

6:06

Editor in Chief who took this

6:08

event from a another New York

6:11

charity fundraising party to the mega

6:13

event we see today. A

6:15

party where a single ticket

6:17

costs seventy five thousand dollars.

6:20

And all obedient celebrities were a

6:22

minimum of two outfits during the

6:24

evening. These. Celebrities he

6:27

replaced the socialites with

6:29

are genuinely hilariously terrified

6:31

of winter. Thus,

6:34

An event obsessed with it's own

6:36

relevance. Count actually engage with It's

6:38

times. This feel the same. Fashion

6:41

is often at it's most amusing

6:43

when it seeks to make a

6:45

point of from Zoo Landers activism

6:47

to the twenty twenty to balance

6:50

the Aga catwalk. So when models

6:52

were required to whole twenty thousand

6:54

dollar dresses through a month, it

6:56

because of something to do with

6:58

refugees. Again, I.

7:00

Think. That.

7:03

Said. Perhaps. Winters guest in

7:05

this department could be made use of us

7:07

a higher level in this polarized. Age.

7:10

When. Rumors swirled back in Twenty Twelve

7:12

that Barack Obama was thinking. Of appointing

7:14

her Us ambassador in London. Many.

7:17

Were disparaging with one naysayer

7:19

Analysts describing the London job

7:21

as. America's most

7:24

diplomatic posting. Is.

7:26

It. Surely. You

7:28

only have the cable back, a bit of

7:30

gossip tarted up as intelligence and direct. A

7:32

Christmas tree twice the size of the King's.

7:35

To. De Winter's ability to

7:37

ruthlessly depoliticize. Any situation

7:40

should clearly be deployed

7:42

nationally and internationally. Sailing

7:45

that? perhaps? Next year's

7:47

Met Gala theme could be the

7:50

era defining meme. Spawned by

7:52

Courtney Kardashian back in an old

7:54

episode of Their Reality. So when

7:56

her sister Kim was in hysterics

7:58

about losing a seventy. Five, The thousand

8:00

dollar diamond earring in the sea. As

8:03

Corny put it both rightly. And

8:06

somehow still very wrongly. Kim.

8:09

There's. People that a dying. Art

8:15

was prokhorov in these dark tile. Let

8:17

us be grateful for the due to

8:20

the spectacle. Of the met by

8:22

Marina Hide read by every

8:24

mullah. Omar.

8:28

Formally best known as the Crown Prince Charles,

8:30

the British at had to hook on a

8:33

lot. Garen as a cocky Us tons per

8:35

and little glad alone as knew that film.

8:38

Bought. It and similar. This. He

8:40

was happens living off grid and of down

8:42

for his next film a Lucky Mera. Night

8:45

my columns in me. What

8:52

makes a movie star. Just.

8:55

O'connor the thirty three year old British

8:57

actor best known until Welp last week

8:59

as the thin skin tight lipped Prince

9:01

Charles and Seasons three and Four of

9:04

the crew and has been mulling over

9:06

this question of late. Earlier

9:08

this year he completed a drama set

9:11

in the First World War cold the

9:13

History of Sound with poor mescal. Pulls.

9:15

A friend and to watch him

9:17

work was amazing says O'connor I

9:20

really can't under play how brilliant

9:22

he is. Paul has that movie

9:24

star quality, whatever that is. I

9:26

wish I could articulate it, but he's just

9:28

graceful about it all. Sunday.

9:32

Or is another one. O'connor is

9:34

currently in cinemas alongside her

9:36

in Challenges Luca Glaad in

9:38

He Knows critically acclaimed psycho

9:40

Sexual Tennis. Which. Topped

9:42

the box offices and both the Uk and

9:44

Us last weekend. They. Play two

9:47

sides of a lascivious love triangle with

9:49

Mike. Size does the third. But.

9:51

It is clear that same day as Tashi,

9:53

Duncan is the one pulling the strings. I've

9:56

never done premieres like I've done with

9:58

challenges says a corner. That's

10:00

alien to me anyway, but to

10:02

see how she breezes through them with

10:04

such class and generosity, I'm

10:06

a nervous wreck. I don't think I'm helpful

10:08

to anyone. And Mike as well, we're both

10:10

a bit like, What the fuck? This is

10:12

mad. But she's just on the nail.

10:15

Call it what you want.

10:18

Chemistry, alchemy, talent, movie star

10:20

quality. Zendaya has it, he

10:22

goes on. She's just hit

10:24

the jackpot. What

10:27

about O'Connor? Does he

10:29

have movie star potential? Or could he?

10:32

No, he replies with a self-deprecating

10:34

giggle. I don't think I have. That's

10:37

not me being so humble. I'm

10:39

too anxious a person. I don't

10:42

know that I have those attributes, really. I don't think

10:44

I'm quite strong enough to be a movie star. He

10:48

might be right, but that's in no way

10:50

a criticism. When we meet on

10:52

a Monday morning in a hotel bar in Soho,

10:55

he has just returned from

10:57

the multi-week global promotional tour

10:59

for challenges, which has been

11:01

exhausting and confusing and scary.

11:04

Like baffling at times, says O'Connor,

11:06

who has tussled brown hair and

11:08

the patchy beginnings of a beard,

11:11

leaning back on the mustard yellow bonquette

11:13

and sipping a cappuccino. But

11:15

at the same time, I was in Sydney

11:18

one week and me and Mike walked over the

11:20

top of the Sydney Harbour Bridge, and it was

11:22

amazing. Or I was in Monte Carlo.

11:25

I'd never go to Monte Carlo, and I was in

11:27

this hotel room that I'd never seen the like of.

11:30

And I went into a casino. I felt

11:32

like I was James Bond. Did he

11:34

gamble? No, I didn't. Well,

11:37

that's the party line, he says. A

11:40

beat? No, I actually

11:42

didn't. Connor

11:45

has a gentle, solicitous manner.

11:48

When later on he talks about losing out

11:50

on the job and feeling joy for the

11:52

other actor who landed it in his place,

11:55

you actually just about believe him. At

11:57

home, his favoured side hustle.

12:00

bottles, and making ceramics and

12:02

gardening. Unable to do

12:04

these on the press tour, he started

12:06

doing embroidery. He grabs his

12:08

phone to show a couple of examples,

12:10

and, I'm not just saying this, they

12:12

are genuinely impressive. I

12:14

ask if he might put them on his Instagram, which

12:17

is mostly images of pots and sculptures and

12:19

black and white photography, and

12:21

looks more like the curation of an artist than

12:23

an actor. He winces. He

12:26

doesn't post so much on the site anymore, he

12:28

says. I'll just send it

12:30

to my mum or friends and be like,

12:32

look, I did some embroidery. That serves the

12:34

purpose of showing off, without having to show

12:36

it off to the masses. All

12:40

of which is to observe that

12:42

O'Connor doesn't radiate classic movie star

12:44

vibes, and that's the case on

12:46

screen as well. Movie stars tend

12:48

to be bigger, more charismatic than

12:51

their characters. They exert a

12:53

gravitational pull. You never

12:55

forget, for example, that you're watching Tom Cruise

12:57

in a Tom Cruise film. O'Connor's

13:00

great skill, meanwhile, is to fully

13:02

disappear into the parts that he

13:04

plays. You never feel

13:06

like you're watching Josh O'Connor in a Josh

13:08

O'Connor film, even when you are. Francis

13:12

Lee, who directed O'Connor in his breakthrough

13:15

2017 film God's

13:17

Own Country, in which he played

13:19

a repressed Yorkshire farmhand, has compared

13:21

his transformative skills to those of

13:24

Daniel Day-Lewis, a rare

13:26

occasion where that comparison hasn't looked ludicrous.

13:29

Peter Morgan, the creator of The Crown, has

13:31

said that O'Connor's arrival on the series reminded

13:33

him of when he first worked with the

13:36

little-known Michael Sheen on the 2003 Blair

13:39

Brown drama The Deal. O'Connor's

13:42

ability to shift shapes has never been

13:45

more obvious than now. In

13:47

Challenges, he is totally convincing as

13:49

Patrick Zweig, a cockshaw yet underachieving

13:52

American tennis player who was at

13:54

least partly modelled on the fiery

13:56

Australian pro Nick Kyrgios. But

13:59

also from the 10th May, O'Connor can

14:01

be seen as the lead Arthur in

14:03

La Cimaire, a new film from the

14:05

Italian auteur, Alicia Rovaka,

14:08

director of Happy as Lazaro, that was a

14:10

big hit at Cannes last year, and

14:13

has since amassed high-profile fans including

14:15

Greta Gerwig, who has said she's

14:18

in love with Rovaka's work. Arthur

14:21

is the talisman of a band

14:23

of tomboroli, Italian grave robbers who

14:25

rely on his gift for dowsing

14:27

to find ancient objects buried in

14:29

Etruscan tombs that they dig up

14:31

and sell on the black market. It's

14:34

a magnetic film, rich in

14:36

magical realism, that

14:38

sometimes feels more like a wild

14:40

documentary than a narrative feature. Certainly

14:44

the two films and O'Connor's roles

14:47

could scarcely be more contrasting, not

14:49

for the experience of shooting them too. For

14:53

challenges, O'Connor, who by

14:55

his own admission is not a regular at the

14:57

gym, had to be toned and muscular. He

15:00

also had to be passably proficient at tennis,

15:03

even though doubles are used for many of the action

15:05

scenes, and had daily sessions for

15:07

a month with Brad Gilbert, who

15:09

has coached Andre Agassi and Coco Gough.

15:12

Guadagnino, who previously directed Call

15:14

Me By Your Name, installed the actors

15:17

in penthouses at the Four Seasons in

15:19

Boston, so they could recover from their

15:21

efforts at the day's end. Luca

15:23

once described to me that actors are

15:25

like racehorses, says O'Connor, smiling,

15:28

and in order for your racehorse to be the best it

15:31

can be, it has to be

15:33

groomed and looked after and kept in a

15:35

nice stable. Lacqui

15:37

Mera, on the other hand, was shot in

15:40

Italy in two sections, the first

15:42

half in winter, then a

15:44

break during which O'Connor filmed challenges, then back

15:46

for the second half in summer. After

15:49

all that tennis, O'Connor returned to

15:52

the Lacqui Mera set, unprecedentedly ripped.

15:55

I got into, like for me, god

15:57

form. I've never been in that

15:59

shape. in my life. This

16:01

made no sense for Arthur in Lacchimera.

16:04

It has not long been released from prison and is

16:06

crushed by the death of his girlfriend. O'Connor

16:09

went on a crash diet, eating

16:11

just a tin of tuna and an apple for the

16:13

day's main meal. O'Connor's

16:16

original plan was to live in Arthur's

16:18

shack on a hillside in Lazio, for

16:20

this was deemed too primitive by Rovaka.

16:23

They didn't have a functioning toilet, or, indeed,

16:25

much of a roof or walls. A

16:28

compromise was struck, that O'Connor would

16:30

stay in his camper van, a refurbished

16:32

DHL delivery truck that he calls Winnie

16:35

and is painted sunshine yellow. Every

16:37

Sunday he would paddle across Lake Bolzena

16:40

in a canoe on loan from Rovaka

16:42

to buy his weak shopping from the

16:44

local village. I've

16:46

noticed when I talk about being in a camper van

16:49

on the side of a hill, it makes people think,

16:52

oh, he's gone method, says O'Connor. But

16:54

truly it was the best possible accommodation

16:56

available to me. I was right by

16:58

Lake Bolzena. It was so beautiful. I

17:01

had my solar shower, which you leave in the

17:03

sun and you stick it on the tree, so

17:05

I had hot showers every day. What

17:07

about looking after your racehorse? It

17:10

was actually luxurious, he corrects

17:12

me, and suits me better than

17:14

the four seasons, which is nice, but a

17:16

little soulless. There's

17:19

definitely a hippie streak in O'Connor,

17:21

which he traces back to his

17:23

childhood. He grew up in Cheltenham, the

17:26

middle of three boys, to John, an

17:28

English teacher, and Emily, a midwife. Both

17:30

now retired. Holidays were spent

17:33

camping in France or walking up the

17:35

mountains. O'Connor didn't especially enjoy

17:37

it at the time, but the habit has

17:39

stuck. The camper van is very

17:41

much still present in my life, he

17:43

says. It's parked at my friend's

17:45

arm, but when I next get a chance for

17:48

a holiday, I'll be in the van. O'Connor

17:51

grew up surrounded by creative types.

17:54

His grandfather, John Bunting, was a

17:56

sculptor who taught Anthony Gormley, and

17:59

his grandmother... Romerla Jane Farquharson,

18:01

a respected ceramicist. His

18:04

aunt Madeline Bunting wrote books and

18:06

columns for the Guardian. O'Connor, who

18:09

has dyslexia, was educated at St. Edward's

18:11

Cheltenham, a private co-ed school where his

18:13

father taught. He excelled at

18:15

art, but eventually drifted into acting,

18:18

and earned a spot at Bristol Old

18:20

Vic Theatre School, which Daniel

18:22

Day-Lewis and Pete Potholthwaite, two of

18:24

his idols, had attended. He

18:27

recalls lectures on Stanislavski and

18:29

Meisner, pioneers of acting theory,

18:31

and someone else, I can't remember

18:33

the name, as he tried to figure out what

18:35

his approach would be when the time came. There

18:39

wasn't much opportunity in O'Connor's early

18:41

gigs. Bit parts in Doctor

18:43

Who and Peaky Blinders. A

18:46

bigger one is Larry in ITV's The Durrells.

18:48

But his chance came with God's Own

18:51

Country, Francis Lee's debut

18:53

film. To prepare for the

18:55

role, O'Connor spent weeks working on a

18:57

sheep farm in Yorkshire, building

19:00

stone walls and delivering lambs. Eventually,

19:03

he ran himself so ragged, losing

19:05

more than 10 kilos, 22 pounds,

19:08

in weight, that he ended up in

19:10

hospital for a week on a drip. That

19:13

was the closest to method, to A

19:15

method, that I did, says O'Connor, and

19:17

I got very sick, which maybe highlights

19:20

that. That film will always

19:22

be very close to my heart, and Francis

19:24

is a huge inspiration, still now, but it

19:26

took a lot out of me, and

19:28

it took me a few years to realise the impact

19:31

that had on my mental health and how I was

19:33

working, and to realise I wouldn't

19:35

be able to maintain that level of in-depth

19:37

living and working long-term, it just wouldn't work.

19:41

For O'Connor now, there is a

19:43

distinction between remaining focused and prepared

19:45

as an actor, and closing yourself

19:47

off to the world. I

19:49

basically shut down for that period of making the

19:51

film, he says, of God's own country.

19:54

It was the beginning of my career, so it was

19:56

easier to shut down to a point, and

19:59

it wasn't such a long shot. shoot, but if

20:01

I was to do that same method on Lacchimaire

20:03

and Challengers, I wouldn't have seen or spoken to

20:05

my family and friends for a year which would

20:07

have been insane, and so, just

20:09

from my mental health point of view, it's

20:12

not sustainable. I'd be devastated." Still,

20:17

O'Connor understands the pull of a

20:19

fully immersive performance. He

20:21

won a British Independent Film Award for

20:23

Best Actor for God's Own Country, and

20:26

the film was one of the reasons he

20:28

started speaking to Guadagnino about working together. And

20:31

I also think actors like to feel like they're

20:34

working, he says, breaking into a goofy

20:36

grin. The idea of suffering

20:38

for your art is very attractive, and

20:40

it felt like that on God's Own Country. It

20:43

wasn't nice being in hospital for a week, but

20:45

I remember at the time thinking, this is the

20:47

stuff, this is how it goes. It's

20:50

just nice to feel like you're working hard, that's

20:52

the truth. Some

20:55

success and more awards. A

20:57

Golden Globe and an Emmy for Best Actor in 2021, followed

21:00

with The Crown. When he was

21:03

initially invited to audition for the series,

21:05

O'Connor declined. "...not because I

21:07

was reticent about everything around it. It

21:09

was just that I didn't fully understand what the

21:11

pull was to play someone like Charles," he says.

21:14

It was only when I went in and chatted to

21:16

them that I suddenly realised how much of an opportunity

21:18

that character was. And I'm so

21:20

glad I did. One of the best experiences

21:23

of my career was making that show. O'Connor's

21:27

read on Charles was an empathetic one.

21:30

At times naive and underestimated, later

21:33

becoming more techy and neurotic. The

21:36

actor had the unsettling experience of

21:38

going into the Covid lockdowns largely

21:40

unknown and coming out a name.

21:42

The fourth season of The Crown, which

21:45

tracked Charles' relationship with Lady Diana

21:47

Spencer, was released on Netflix

21:49

in November 2020. O'Connor

21:51

has chatted with Mezcal about his

21:53

similarly discombobulating journey with normal people,

21:56

which also came out in that period. Although

21:59

he accepted the that the scales were significantly

22:01

more loaded for his friend. When

22:04

lockdown lifted, he was the most photographed man

22:06

in the world, says O'Connor. That

22:08

must have been a real shock to the system. Last

22:12

year, O'Connor moved from a flat in

22:14

north London to a house in a

22:16

village outside Stroud, Gloucestershire. A big

22:18

part of the appeal was to be close to his family, but

22:21

mainly he wanted a bigger garden and

22:23

a small ceramics studio. He

22:25

politely declines to say whether he currently has a

22:27

partner. This summer, O'Connor's younger

22:29

brother is coming to stay, and they're going

22:32

to dig a pond. I

22:34

sort of loved London for a bit, he says, but

22:37

I always remember an article in The Guardian that

22:39

my aunt Madeline wrote. Basically,

22:41

there was this line that people move to

22:43

London to work enough so they can move

22:45

out. Because

22:47

of Challengers and La Cimaire, O'Connor

22:49

hasn't had much time at home recently, but

22:52

Challengers is out in the world now and is

22:54

striking a chord. The horniest movie

22:56

of the year, noted New York

22:59

magazine approvingly. O'Connor is especially

23:01

pleased to have pulled off a character so

23:03

removed from his own nature. That

23:05

was the scariest bit with Patrick, but it

23:08

was also the most attractive bit, because

23:10

I don't think I've done that before,

23:12

to fully enter into that complete arrogance,

23:14

confidence, whatever you want to call it. When

23:17

the truth is, I err on the

23:19

side of solitude and keeping myself to myself,

23:22

and I live in the country, like to be left alone.

23:25

But Luca is very good at just going, forget

23:28

who you are, let's focus on

23:30

the parts of you that could lend themselves to

23:32

Patrick and pull those out. Was

23:35

O'Connor worried about the tennis not looking

23:37

realistic? Actors are very good at

23:39

learning enough of a skill, he says. On

23:42

the crown, I remember having to learn polo. I

23:45

did two sessions and was like, guys,

23:47

are you sure that's enough? We are

23:49

jacks of all trades, masters of none.

23:53

Again, with Lacchimaire, the emotions

23:55

are the total opposite. Arthur

23:57

is probably the most attuned O'Connor has ever

23:59

seen. felt towards a character. It's

24:02

funny because Lackey Mera feels like the

24:04

core of my soul, he says. Not

24:07

only because I gave so much of myself to that

24:09

role, but also Alicia Rovaka

24:11

is my hero. She's like a

24:13

sister to me, and the people involved in

24:15

that film are like family to me. So

24:18

it's my baby, and you want to send

24:20

it off into the world." Our

24:23

time is almost up, so

24:25

I ask O'Connor what lessons he has taken

24:28

from the past few chaotic months. He

24:30

replies tangentially by bringing up one of

24:33

his favourite books, Candide,

24:35

Voltaire's 1759 satire

24:38

that set out to destroy the optimism

24:40

of those times. This is

24:42

such an interview move, laughs O'Connor, particularly

24:45

with the observer, to be like,

24:47

let's drop in some literature, keep everyone happy.

24:50

In particular, O'Connor refers to the ending,

24:53

where Candide and his companions travel to Turkey

24:55

and meet an old man sitting under a

24:57

tree. Impressed by the simple

24:59

ease with which he lives, they ask

25:02

for his secret to a happy life. "'We

25:04

must cultivate our garden,' the

25:07

man responds. "'My

25:10

reading of that conclusion is that gardening

25:12

is, at its heart, a

25:14

small act of life,' says O'Connor. "'You

25:17

tend to this thing which gives you some

25:19

joy for particularly in the UK, like two

25:21

months of the year. Then it dies,

25:23

and you tend to it again.

25:25

You enjoy it, then it dies. It's

25:27

repetitive and pointless that we do it.'

25:31

"'I'm a little confused. What exactly

25:33

does this have to do with O'Connor's career?' "'My

25:36

response to the past couple of months

25:38

isn't, "'Oh, yes, please, more of that,' he

25:41

explains patiently. "'I love making

25:43

work. But I also love being

25:45

in my garden and tending to plants and

25:47

watching them live and die. That contrast, I'm

25:50

hoping, will keep me grounded.' So,

25:54

Josh O'Connor, maybe not a

25:57

movie star, but perhaps something even more

25:59

special. That is, if he

26:02

can be prized away from his garden. How

26:34

can a people first approach the

26:36

higher education transformation improve success? An

26:39

EY report suggests that taking emotional

26:41

and psychological factors into account is

26:43

just as important as the technology.

26:46

Six factors drive this human-centered

26:48

approach. Leadership, inspiration, care, empowerment,

26:51

investment and collaboration. Get these

26:53

rights and they can more

26:55

than double an organization's chance

26:57

of transformation success. Learn more

26:59

about people first transformation at

27:02

theguardian.com or slash transforming higher

27:04

education. This message was paid for by EY. This

27:07

is Paige, the co-host of Giggly Squad, and

27:09

I want to tell you about a company

27:11

that I've been loving, Olive & June. Olive

27:14

& June gives you everything that you need

27:16

for a salon-quality manicure in one box. And

27:19

if you break it down, it really comes

27:21

out to $2 a manicure, which is absolutely

27:23

insane. It's also so easy to get salon-worthy

27:25

nails at home with Olive & June. The

27:28

difference between how your nails used to look

27:30

when you did them yourself and now with

27:32

the mani system is a complete game changer.

27:34

The best thing about Olive & June 2

27:36

is it's a quick dry. It dries in

27:38

about one minute, lasts for five days, and

27:40

full coverage in up to one to two

27:42

coats. Visit oliveandjune.com/perfect mani 20 for 20% off

27:45

your first system. That's

27:48

oliveandjune.com/perfect mani 20

27:50

for 20% off your first system. Thank

27:58

you. Quite

28:04

nice. Sometimes

28:06

even a bit. In Into

28:08

Sensible the talks about three

28:11

months he. Didn't even able

28:13

to speak to help taxi

28:15

the noise posts six me

28:18

for Uk if introducing new

28:20

offices me guardians on top

28:22

of. All

28:26

the inside the you need from Westminster to

28:28

kick off yoga and to the center where

28:31

will be suing over the. Her.

28:48

Come to weekend. Patreon

28:52

Car traveled the UK into the than teenage

28:54

boys in a cough, the understand what it

28:56

means to be a boy and twenty two

28:59

them. What? She found was

29:01

openness, hopefulness, honesty and vulnerability.

29:03

On topic from sex, the

29:06

pornography, feelings and isolation. Read.

29:09

By as the mina. It

29:16

was two separate conversations that made

29:18

me think properly about what life

29:20

might be like as a boy

29:22

these days. The. First was

29:24

about a thirteen year old, the son of

29:26

a friend who said he had been rounded

29:29

on for making a smooth. And

29:31

he thought complimentary comments about

29:33

ago haircuts. He told

29:35

his mother that the girl's. Friends. Were outraged. Oh

29:37

My. God. You can't say that about someone's

29:39

appears that so bad. You can't talk about

29:41

a girl like that. He

29:43

fancied the go for the whole episode was

29:46

pretty painful. Be. Was deflated. Embarrassed

29:48

and resolve never to go

29:51

there again. The.

29:54

Second conversation with with a mother of

29:56

a sixteen. Year old. He

29:58

had started having sex. and talked to

30:00

her about some of the realities of dating

30:03

and hooking up. He

30:05

said it was quite common, among

30:07

his friends, to record their partners

30:09

on their phones giving verbal consent

30:11

before having sex. Sometimes,

30:13

he said, they recorded again

30:15

midway through, this time to make

30:17

sure that the girl was happy to do

30:20

something different or something, and

30:22

sometimes the phone was left recording the whole

30:24

event to make sure. My

30:28

own boys were 13 and 15 at

30:30

the time, smack bang in the

30:32

middle of secondary school and just at the tail

30:34

end of Covid. Until then, I

30:36

had been busy enough worrying about normal things,

30:38

whether they could break a bone in a

30:40

rugby match, if they were safe being out

30:42

after dark, what they saw on their phones

30:44

and how they were getting on with their

30:46

schoolwork. Added

30:49

to that were pandemic worries about time

30:51

spent online, their lack of social

30:53

lives and what these months cooped

30:55

up might have done to their development and

30:57

happiness. At no stage did

31:00

I consider worrying about the effect

31:02

that hashtag me too and everyone's

31:04

invited, brilliant campaigns which

31:07

raise awareness of the shocking levels

31:09

of sexual assaults against girls and

31:11

women might have on boys. It

31:14

became a new worry for my list. I

31:18

should make it completely clear that

31:21

I think anything which helps reduce

31:23

violence against women and girls is

31:25

good. Both these movements

31:27

were really good. As

31:30

women of my generation know only too well,

31:32

before they existed it was very hard

31:34

to speak out. It still can

31:36

be. But once I

31:38

started talking to other mothers about their

31:41

sons, it became clear that conversations

31:43

around sexual assaults had made many

31:45

of them fearful about sex

31:47

and relationships. Some

31:50

seemed to have even internalised ideas about

31:52

boys being bad or felt

31:54

in trouble before they started. Many

31:57

hadn't even ever tried to initiate

31:59

a relationship. relationship because of what

32:01

they perceive to be the risks attached. Conversations

32:06

about sex, consent and false

32:09

allegations became the focus for

32:11

one of the five programs I ended

32:13

up making for a BBC Radio

32:15

4 series about the boys, which

32:17

aired last week. The

32:19

other episodes cover life

32:22

online, pornography, friendships, education

32:24

and ideas of masculinity and

32:27

success. I travelled to

32:29

Devon, Hertfordshire, Camarvon,

32:31

Rochdale, Bradford, London and

32:33

Cambridge to interview all kinds

32:35

of boys in all kinds of settings, including

32:38

youth clubs, schools, colleges, sports

32:41

clubs and dance companies. I

32:43

sent recorders to Scotland so members of

32:46

the boys brigade there could take part

32:48

too. Before

32:50

I set off, I spoke to experts who

32:52

have researched boys for years. One

32:55

of those I interviewed, Dr Niobe Way,

32:58

had written a book about teenage boys

33:00

and friendship. That must be a

33:02

short book, someone joked when she told them.

33:05

As if all teenage boys have nothing much

33:07

to say. She found

33:10

the absolute opposite. And

33:12

so did I. I

33:15

was amazed at the openness,

33:17

thoughtfulness, honesty and vulnerability

33:19

the boys showed. Some

33:22

of them confessed they'd never thought before I

33:24

asked about what it means to be a

33:26

man or what they would want

33:29

listeners to know about being a boy in 2024. Once I

33:31

did ask, they

33:34

were so willing to talk. People

33:37

think boys are bratty, spoiled, disgusting

33:39

and rude as well,

33:41

one told me. It's all not true. Another

33:45

said, men come across

33:47

in relationships as these powerful figures

33:50

that need to protect and all that. But

33:52

men have off days. We can't always

33:55

be like that. We are fragile.

33:57

And I feel like some women need to understand.

34:00

understand that. The

34:02

boys I met were all aged between 13

34:04

and 19, with an

34:06

honourable exception for a group of adorable primary

34:09

school boys who sang for me, showed me

34:11

their press-up skills and told me how many

34:13

fish fingers they can eat in one go.

34:16

Twenty, in case you are wondering. Ten, then

34:18

a small break, then ten more. The

34:22

older boys talked about the patriarchy being

34:24

a bad thing for boys as well as girls,

34:27

and their concerns about male mental health.

34:31

Eighty percent of suicides are men.

34:34

They told me that oral sex was

34:36

more common at year 11 parties than

34:39

any other kind of sex, and

34:41

how watching porn gave them unrealistic

34:44

ideas about what their bodies and

34:46

their faces should look like during

34:48

intercourse, and what they should be

34:50

doing with or to their partners. Even

34:54

though we know it's an unrealistic expectation

34:56

of what might happen, one boy explained,

34:58

you still have to fill those boots. They

35:03

worry that porn videos show penetrative

35:05

sex lasting for 25 minutes, which

35:08

they thought challenging, and were

35:10

reassured to hear in a lesson that the

35:12

average time is more like three to four

35:14

minutes. Many

35:17

were angry that the adults in

35:19

their lives dodged uncomfortable conversations

35:21

about sex, including what

35:24

to do and where everything even

35:26

is, and others confirmed what

35:29

I already knew, that the fear

35:31

of getting accused of assault puts

35:33

them off the whole idea completely. Even

35:36

if they do consent, what am I going to do if

35:38

they say nah right after? As

35:41

a radio producer, editing different

35:44

episodes I found it impossible

35:46

to segregate and separate the

35:48

topics. Sex has

35:50

such obvious connections to the time

35:52

boys spend online, whether

35:54

watching porn or other videos on YouTube

35:57

and TikTok. The boys were all

35:59

too aware of the way that pornographic

36:01

content seeps into almost every place

36:03

they visit on the internet. I

36:07

found it heartbreaking to hear the way

36:09

boys from all corners of the UK

36:11

described trying to live in a

36:14

digital world without being constantly sucked

36:16

into a doomscrolling vortex on their

36:18

phones at home alone. I wish

36:21

I was brought up in a different generation. One

36:23

15-year-old in Dartmoor told me. I look

36:26

up and minutes have turned into hours, said

36:29

another. One boy from

36:31

Herefordshire shared his total hours online

36:33

over the Christmas holidays. 40 a week.

36:38

The data backs up the stories. Boys

36:41

are retreating from the real world and

36:43

have been ever since video games were

36:45

invented in the 1970s. The

36:47

arrival of the smartphone has accelerated

36:49

the process, and as researchers from

36:52

New York University have shown, one

36:54

of the results is that many boys are

36:57

losing vital skills. Zach Rauch,

36:59

a research scientist at NYU

37:01

Stern, explained how studies show

37:04

that in order to play together,

37:06

boys say they need to be

37:08

physically separate, in their own

37:10

rooms with their own screens. Boys

37:12

I spoke to, who were keen on gaming,

37:14

said that, unlike girls, who want

37:16

to go shopping and get their nails done, they

37:19

were happy to chill at home online. Those

37:23

who had found close IRL

37:25

in real life friendships were

37:27

usually older teens, who had

37:30

navigated the tricky waters of

37:32

secondary school friendship hierarchies, where

37:34

your status can be directly

37:36

connected to your ability to

37:38

get girls. Those

37:40

low down, these hierarchies, told me

37:42

that they felt too socially insecure

37:45

to even call out racist or

37:47

sexist comments, which they know are

37:49

wrong. Like

37:51

a stick of rock, throughout every

37:53

conversation on every topic, the

37:56

boys all kept coming back

37:58

to feelings. don't

38:00

think we are soft inside," one said.

38:03

It's hard to open up as a boy. Ideas

38:06

of what it means to be a

38:08

man, how to start a relationship, keep

38:10

a friendship, be successful or get on

38:12

well at school were all

38:15

tangled up with old ideas

38:17

of being stone-faced and manning

38:19

up, and newer ideas of

38:22

being emotionally expressive and vulnerable.

38:26

One boy gave me the example of a

38:28

girl breaking down in tears in the middle

38:31

of class. Think how different

38:33

the reaction of their classmates would be, he

38:35

said, if the person who'd broken down in

38:37

tears was a boy. If

38:40

the picture appears bleak, then I don't mean it

38:43

to be. The boys

38:45

I spoke to were all so warm

38:47

and thoughtful and frank, but

38:49

I am not naive. I

38:51

met them all in settings where at

38:53

least one adult in their life is

38:55

invested in them and is making an

38:58

effort to get to know and support

39:00

them, whether that's a teacher, youth leader

39:02

or coach. It's harder to reach

39:04

boys who lack any cheerleaders at all.

39:08

Having been hugely encouraged by the willingness of

39:10

the boys I did meet to talk of

39:12

their lives so honestly, I did

39:15

add a big new worry to my list.

39:18

After the massive cuts we've seen

39:20

to youth services, which enable boys

39:22

to be reached and supported, what

39:25

might the end result be? We

39:51

hear from a woman with concerns about the marks she

39:53

will leave on the world. I

40:03

don't get so many emails about what sort

40:05

of legacy we're going to leave in this

40:07

world, but I was very pleased to get

40:09

this one because I think it's a good

40:11

thing to think about. I

40:15

am a 54-year-old woman with a good

40:17

career and a stable marriage. I

40:20

live across the globe from my parents,

40:22

my siblings and their kids, and I'm

40:24

child-free. I have reduced

40:26

contact with them to brief and polite

40:29

birthday and Christmas messages, which they respond

40:31

to, but we have no

40:33

relationship or ongoing contact as such.

40:36

It is close to estrangement and

40:38

I have no desire to try to repair

40:40

this. I am

40:43

child-free because I always feared repeating

40:45

my family's parenting style and had

40:47

no sense of my childhood as

40:50

a positive experience. I

40:53

have become preoccupied with the idea

40:55

of a legacy of a life

40:57

well-lived. I have

40:59

always placed high value on social

41:01

contribution and working hard, but

41:04

as I increasingly ponder the likelihood of

41:06

dying alone and without children, I have

41:09

started to become quite critical about

41:11

the point of striving in my

41:13

career and how and what I

41:15

should be doing with my time. I

41:18

feel being forgotten is

41:20

a realistic proposition and

41:22

it leads me to wonder whether this

41:24

is liberating and I can stop striving,

41:26

do as I please, or

41:28

should I strive harder and find a

41:31

way of leaving my mark, ensuring I

41:33

have a life that will mean something?

41:36

Is this just an indulgent

41:38

existential crisis? Do I need

41:40

just to get over myself? And

41:44

I wrote back to this lady, Oh no,

41:46

don't get over yourself. Rather

41:49

than dismissing your feelings as indulgent or

41:51

trivial, acknowledge them with

41:54

compassion and curiosity. You

41:57

are touching other people's lives today by

41:59

having a life. being written into this

42:01

magazine and making us think about the

42:03

issue, that's a bit of

42:05

your legacy right there. You

42:08

do not have meaningful relationships with your

42:10

family, and it seems that this has

42:13

caused you to think about who will remember

42:15

you, and will it matter if

42:17

no one does? The painter Francis

42:19

Bacon came to mind as I read

42:21

your email, as he once said, I

42:24

suddenly realised there it is, this

42:26

is what life is like, existing

42:28

for a second, then brushed off

42:30

like flies on a wall, we

42:32

are born and we die and

42:34

there's nothing else, we're just part

42:36

of animal life. Adopting

42:39

that philosophy takes the pressure off,

42:42

or if you want pressure there's

42:44

William James, he said, the

42:46

greatest purpose of life is to live

42:48

it for something that will last longer than

42:50

you. If we only

42:52

lived for a future beyond our own

42:54

lives, we would be in danger

42:56

of missing out on what we have, what

42:59

we have is now, and it's

43:01

our job to make the best of it. What

43:04

do you want your guiding principles to

43:06

be? My advice

43:08

is, think about what

43:10

your life includes, its

43:13

meaning, engagement,

43:15

satisfaction and connection. These

43:19

four principles can lead to pleasure

43:21

and not necessarily only selfish

43:23

pleasures either. To connect

43:26

with others, for example, affords mutual

43:28

pleasure. Do you

43:31

strive harder to make a positive difference to

43:33

the world, or do you decide as

43:35

you will be forgotten anyway to liberate

43:37

yourself from any such obligation?

43:41

But I don't think it is an

43:43

either or question. I

43:45

think you can do as you

43:47

please and still touch people's lives

43:49

in a meaningful, lasting way. Consider

43:52

the question of personal legacy as

43:55

more than just about being remembered,

43:57

because by answering it, Perhaps

44:00

you will find out what you want your

44:02

life to mean to you in the present.

44:05

What's life about for you, your

44:07

partner and your chosen community?

44:11

To help you get nearer an answer, note

44:14

your responses to the following questions.

44:17

Imagine yourself on your deathbed,

44:20

looking back over your days here on

44:22

earth. What is

44:25

it that you will be seeing? What

44:29

were the wasted hours and how did

44:32

you spend those? And

44:35

what days were well spent and what were

44:37

you doing on those days? What

44:42

of the things you have done would

44:44

you be most proud? What

44:48

would be your regrets? Who

44:51

are the people around your deathbed? Do

44:55

you want to look back on a life

44:57

that looks worthwhile to others or

44:59

a life that felt good to you? What

45:03

were the very first thoughts that came to

45:06

mind when you asked yourself all those questions?

45:09

The first thing that comes to mind in this

45:11

situation is usually the true answer

45:14

before logic and reason kick in.

45:18

Experiment with meaning, engagement,

45:20

satisfaction and connection.

45:24

At 54 you are still relatively

45:26

young. You have time to

45:28

decide how you want the rest of your

45:30

life to feel and what you want it

45:32

to mean. Legacy

45:34

doesn't have to be grandiose or

45:36

public. It can be found in

45:39

the lives you touch, the impact

45:41

you have on others, whether

45:43

that's through your work, paid or not,

45:46

community involvement or

45:48

personal connections. Perhaps

45:50

you will decide to continue to strive in

45:52

your career. Or maybe

45:55

you'll turn to pursue new

45:57

passions or find joy in

45:59

everyday experiences. Whatever

46:01

you do, remember that your

46:03

life does have meaning and value,

46:06

regardless of how others may

46:09

perceive it, now

46:11

or after you have gone. That

46:16

was, I have no children

46:18

and I've started to fear for my legacy.

46:21

What can I do? Read by Philip

46:23

Apari. That's

46:26

all from us. This has

46:28

been Weekend, a Guardian Podcast. If

46:31

you're enjoying it, please make sure

46:33

to like, subscribe to and rate

46:35

the podcast. Maybe even

46:37

leave us a nice review or let us know

46:39

what you want to hear more of. Just search

46:41

for Weekend wherever you get your podcasts. This

46:44

week's articles are read by Evelyn

46:46

Miller, Callum Sinley and Philip Apari

46:48

and presented by me Savannah Iode-Grieves.

46:52

This episode was produced by Rachel Porter.

46:55

The executive producer is Ellie Purie. Join

46:58

us again next Saturday. Thanks

47:00

for listening. This is The

47:02

Guardian. Okay,

47:11

I have two new obsessions that I need to

47:13

share with you. Impress no glue,

47:15

press on manis and impress press on falsies

47:17

lashes. Trust me,

47:19

these are getting ready game changers. Both

47:22

require no glue, so there is no

47:24

damage to your natural nails and lashes,

47:26

no mess and no annoying dry times.

47:29

Just one step and you're

47:32

done. Boom. Instinct glam. Visit

47:34

impressbeauty.com/press on and use code

47:36

press on 25 at checkout

47:39

for 25% off impress manicure

47:41

and press on falsies. How

47:43

can a people's first approach to higher

47:45

education transformation improve success? An

47:48

EY report suggests that taking

47:50

emotional and psychological factors into

47:52

account is just as important

47:54

as the technology. Six factors

47:56

drive this human centered approach.

47:58

Leadership, inspiration, care, empowerment, investment

48:00

and collaboration. Get these rights

48:03

and they can more than

48:05

double an organization's chance of

48:07

transformation success. Learn more about

48:09

people-first transformation at theguardian.com or

48:11

slash transforming higher education. This

48:13

message was pulled for by EY.