0:40

Welcome to Being Boss, a podcast for

0:40

creatives, business owners and entrepreneurs who want to

0:44

take control of their work and live life on their own terms.

0:44

I'm your host Emily Thompson. And in this episode, I'm

0:51

joined by book PR pro and boss friend, Dana Kay to talk

0:51

about building and maintaining company culture so that you,

0:59

your employees and your customers are always taken care of.

0:59

You can find all the tools, books and links we reference on

1:05

the show notes at www.beingboss.club. And if you liked this

1:05

episode, be sure to subscribe to the show and share us with

1:12

a friend Dana Kaye is a lifelong entrepreneur who believes

1:12

in the power of storytelling and authentic personal

1:22

branding. In 2009. She founded Kaye Publicity Inc, a

1:22

boutique PR company specializing in publishing and

1:30

entertainment. Known for her innovative ideas and knowledge

1:30

of current trends. She coaches her clients on how to

1:36

identify and establish their unique personal brands. In

1:36

2016, Dana launched Midwest Mystery Conference, a one day

1:44

conference dedicated to crime fiction with mystery author

1:44

Lorie Rider-Day. She is also the author of two books, Your

1:51

Book Your Brand, The Step-by-step Guide to Launching Your

1:51

Book and Boosting Your Sales, and The Personal Brand

1:57

Workbook. She also serves on the advisory board of Propel

1:57

PR. Dana can previously be found on the following episodes

2:06

of Being Boss, episode number 250, 260, 232, and 333. All

2:06

right, Dana, welcome back to the conversation we've been

2:17

trying to have this whole time.

2:19

We got here, a few episodes, but we got here.

2:24

We did get here. I asked Dana, months ago,

2:24

to come have a conversation with me about company culture,

2:34

and the line of questioning or it's the lines of questioning

2:34

that you can hear in episodes 323 and then 333. And now

2:44

we're back in 250. What is this two or wherever this ends up

2:44

landing. And like this was where we were going, it just took

2:53

us all of those to get here.

2:55

It's because hiring and culture and all of these

2:55

things. It's it's a bigger thing, right? It's and not all of

3:03

us are very holistic in the way we practice. So I'm not

3:03

going to just give here my 10 steps to great company

3:09

culture. Right it we need to first talk about the hiring

3:09

process. And then we have to talk about the onboarding and

3:16

the training and all of those things. So yes, it does take a

3:16

little bit of time before you can even get to the company

3:21

culture discussion.

3:23

Yeah, and neither of those conversations are

3:23

short and quick either, right? There's a lot of things that

3:28

go into hiring, like finding the right person and making

3:28

sure they're the right person, and then onboarding them onto

3:36

the company. Like, I'm glad this took us three episodes to

3:36

do it. Because I feel like we did these three topics, or we

3:43

did the previous two, we're about to do the third one

3:43

justice. Because it is such a it's such a big part. It's

3:51

such a big process. Yes. But it's also such a big part of

3:51

doing business. I think you and I are both in a place in our

3:59

respective companies, where a large part of our time is

3:59

spent finding the right employees, hiring the right

4:08

employees, onboarding, and the onboarding process really is

4:08

at least truly a sixish, sixish month process. It's kind of

4:19

our job.

4:21

And also leading and coaching and mentoring. So

4:21

even when, you're laughing, because you know, it's the work

4:29

is never done. I think that once they're onboarded, then

4:29

it's like even steeping them deeper into their company

4:37

culture, making sure that their instincts are right. And as

4:37

they get different challenges, or different things are

4:45

presented to them that they know how we as a company would

4:45

handle it, versus just them and their instincts.

4:54

Yeah, for sure. So we're gonna be talking

4:54

about all of those things today, plus some talking about

5:00

company culture. If you haven't listened those previous two

5:00

episodes, I highly recommend you go check those out first.

5:05

They really are the context that leads us to this

5:05

conversation here. And now so that was episode 222, excuse

5:11

me, 323 and then 333. And now we're here to talk about sort

5:11

of this last piece so you have people in, you have people

5:20

doing their job, but I love what you just said about around

5:20

this idea of helping people make make decisions based on how

5:28

the company would make decisions. I feel like that's a

5:28

really great sort of point to this company culture. But to

5:34

kick us off. How do you define company culture and why do

5:34

you think it's important?

5:40

I think the definition that I go to and I think

5:40

this one is helpful, because there might be people listening

5:45

who are still solopreneurs or maybe always want to be

5:45

solopreneurs. But even if you're a solopreneur, you still

5:52

have a company culture. And the your services and your

5:52

offerings. That's what you do. The company culture lies and

6:01

how you do it. This is how you're showing up to do the work,

6:01

how you're showing up for your clients, how you're showing

6:10

up in your retail store, how you're showing up on social

6:10

media, it's the it's the how there's lots of crystal shop

6:16

owners, there's lots of publicists. But the difference

6:16

between Almanac and the others or Kaye Publicity and the

6:24

others is that our culture is different. Our culture is what

6:24

makes us unique. When you walk into your store, it feels

6:33

different than some of the other crystal stores. When people

6:33

walk into our virtual, you know, our virtual services, when

6:39

they have their first onboarding call, when they get our

6:39

proposals, when they talk to our team members. It's a

6:45

different experience than speaking to other publicists. And

6:45

so the culture piece is baked in. But in the context of

6:52

employees, it's making sure that they understand that

6:52

culture and understand the how we do it. So that they can

7:03

continue to kind of reinforce this with whoever they come in

7:03

contact with. So Emily, you're not at the shop every day.

7:11

I'm not talking to our clients, I don't talk to that many of

7:11

our clients anymore, which is an interesting, interesting

7:18

shift. But I'm really confident that whoever walks into your

7:18

store and whatever team member the client talks to, or the

7:25

media professional talks to, we're all going to give them

7:25

the same, Tara McMullen calls it the special sauce, the how

7:32

we do it, they're going to all give them the same treatment,

7:32

regardless of who's working the front, or regardless of who

7:38

answers the phone.

7:40

Hmm, beautiful. I love that that's a really

7:40

great sort of summation of what I think is, it's not a

7:47

definition that's really easy to pin down. Like, I don't

7:47

think anyone can ever be like, company culture is here are

7:52

eight words that define the thing, right, there's lots of

7:52

pieces is sort of lives and breathes and moves and all of

7:56

these things. And it really encompasses so much of what you

7:56

do. And you mentioned the like, how it is that you do

8:03

things. But I think that comes from a why it is that you do

8:03

things which we talked about in the last episode, last part

8:12

of this, where we talked about values, right, the values are

8:12

the why that's how you like get down into like, if you

8:18

value, you know, at Almanac, we value collaboration. So are

8:18

that's one of our company values. So that really plays into

8:27

the how we do a lot of things. So I think as values, I think

8:27

it's very much so goals, it's an understanding of the goals,

8:35

depending on where you're working towards will sort of

8:35

dictate how it is that you move toward that thing as well.

8:41

And then also, the attitudes that you have, as you're doing

8:41

things. You're right, I think, I hope and I know, in a lot

8:49

of ways that whenever someone walks into the store, the

8:49

experience they're getting from one employee is going to be

8:55

the exact or is very similar attitude, as they're gonna get

8:55

from, you know, whether it's me or one of my employees,

9:04

whether it's a keyholder, or a sales associate, or just the

9:04

person working in the stockroom in the downstairs who's

9:10

upstairs for a second also greeting someone who comes in,

9:10

there's these pieces of the company culture that are

9:18

defined, and I think the values and goals help define them

9:18

that really inform the how the practices and processes that

9:26

help you share that company culture within the company, so

9:26

to each other within the team, but also outside of the

9:35

company with your customers and clients.

9:37

Yeah, and I was gonna say like the values

9:37

conversation really is the heart of all of this right? Your

9:43

values, which if you don't know them yet,

9:43

beingboss.club/values, I think there is there. But I think

9:54

that getting really clear, and these aren't your personal

9:54

values, although you're if you're the business owner, your

9:59

personal values often get infused into the company ones.

9:59

However, the company values that's a lens where we're all

10:07

operating from. So I might have we have people on our team

10:07

who are more creative minds, we have people on our team who

10:14

are more detail oriented analytical thinkers. But we're all

10:14

looking through the lens of we have three C's community,

10:23

creativity and consistency. And I think the consistency

10:23

piece is really important for again, company culture. How

10:31

you do one thing is how you do everything. And so I think

10:31

that this translates from the values that we use to serve

10:39

our clients as well as using our values to how we support

10:39

each other how we interact with each other as team members,

10:46

how we function as an organization. And we all we look

10:46

through those through the lens of those three values. So I

10:53

think that it's really helpful. The reason that that creates

10:53

the culture is that we are all gathering around a similar

11:03

cause. So it's like the why, like, why we're doing this, as

11:03

well as we all are buying into these three values. And so we

11:12

are all speaking the same language, we're all understanding

11:12

how we operate. And when there are tensions between

11:19

employees, between me and my team members, between employees

11:19

and clients, we can keep coming back to that, where if

11:27

something gets tense, I mean, I have a big team now. And I

11:27

know Emily, you do too. So like, there's personalities,

11:33

right? Like we all have different, different quirks and

11:33

different things. But when things get tense, the way it,

11:42

tension is, okay, I think it brings about better ideas. But

11:42

I think that the way it goes, it prevents the tension from

11:49

becoming toxic, is that we know we're all coming from this

11:49

shared, the shared ideals, the shared values and the share

11:56

why. And that's what the, that's why company culture is so,

11:56

so important. It's going to keep employees there longer,

12:04

it's going to act as a filter for, you know, employees that

12:04

are good fit or not, because people come to us, and they're

12:11

like very, I mean I work in publishing. So if you're money

12:11

driven, and you made a big mistake, like going into this

12:16

industry. So I think that, you know, it attracts people who

12:16

care about the arts, who care about storytelling, fully

12:24

remote, so it attracts people who are independent

12:24

contributors and can manage their time. And if you don't

12:31

value community, like you're going to kind of self self opt

12:31

out. That's not the you know, self-select. Yeah, there you

12:39

go. And so I think that if you infuse this, this idea of

12:39

culture into everything, there's these tangential things

12:47

that happen that just make your work easier.

12:48

Yeah, yes, I agree with all of that. And I

12:48

have a couple of things to sort of come off of that, you

12:56

mentioned that one of your values is consistency. And it's

12:56

actually something that I thought of before you brought that

13:01

up. Because even though it's one of your values, I think for

13:01

any company, company culture brings consistency to what it

13:10

is that you're doing. And one of the old Emilyisms is that

13:10

consistency breeds legitimacy. It literally allows or it

13:19

builds trust between you and your employees and or you and

13:19

your customers. And so by having everyone operating under,

13:28

you know, this lens of the company values, whenever a client

13:28

talks to you versus talking to your project manager or your

13:37

assistant or your account rep or whatever, or whether

13:37

they're visiting you now, or next month or a year from now,

13:44

that consistency in how it is that you are presenting

13:44

yourself. And I mean, you as a business in whatever capacity

13:50

that looks like, is what will keep them coming back as well.

13:50

What will help you with your word of mouth marketing and all

13:57

of those things, you simply by showing up the same every

13:57

single time no matter what that what that entails builds

14:05

trust, because consistency is what lends to that. So I want

14:05

to say that. And then I also want to talk about this through

14:13

the lens of the values. I can't remember if I said this in

14:13

the last episode, and I say this sometimes in calls and like

14:19

all the things, who knows, so apologies if I'm repeating

14:19

myself. But one of the things that I tell my team, and I

14:26

think we're gonna get into this a little more in a minute,

14:26

is as I'm onboarding people on like their first day of work,

14:32

we're going through the employee handbooks together, we're

14:32

doing, you know, talking about all of these things, and I

14:37

always stop and hit on values in particular, because that

14:37

really is the lens through which everything should and could

14:44

be done. And I always tell them, when it comes to decision

14:44

making, if I can ever see that you made a decision through

14:52

the lens of your values, I don't care or through the lens of

14:52

our values. Let me, let me go back and edit that one of if I

15:02

can see that you thought about what our values are, and you

15:02

made that decision based on the values if it's something

15:09

that didn't previously have processes in place, whatever it

15:09

may be, then I know that you made that as a company and not

15:17

just you with whatever interests you have in mind. And

15:17

that's really powerful. I think to give your employees that

15:25

sort of context through which they can build some autonomy

15:25

into the job that they do and how you've given them the lens

15:34

through which they are then you know, empowered to make

15:34

whatever decisions they make can and will have to make?

15:39

Well, it goes back to your business changes,

15:39

right? Like no day in a retail store is exactly the same.

15:39

Yeah, not to mention good processes.

15:46

For us, every client is a little different. And if your team

15:46

members are constantly asking you questions like, What

15:53

should I do about this, what should I do, like that's not an

15:53

efficient way, you need to create some, some systematic

15:54

Good processes, you know, we love those.

16:01

decision makings for them. And you can't predict anything,

16:01

you can't make a decision tree for every single scenario.

16:08

And so when it comes down to it, like looking at our why,

16:08

looking at the values and putting it through that lens,

16:11

Indeed, indeed. because it's interesting, you talked about consistency, and

16:15

like clients coming back, because we actually just had a

16:23

call with a client that we haven't worked with in five

16:23

years. And she asked, like, she asked, like, what are you

16:30

doing differently? Like, what would the campaign look like?

16:30

It's been a minute. And when I look at her campaign, I'm

16:35

Being boss is about more than taking care of

16:35

business, it's also about taking care of yourself and not

16:37

like, the modalities are different, like, not many blogs

16:37

now, lots more TikTok now, like those, but the premise is

16:45

all the same. Where are your readers? Like, it's all about

16:45

reaching readers and connecting with readers. And so if

16:52

you're, if you have, if you're able to like distill what you

16:52

do into something very simple and put that to your team

16:59

members, then they can make better decisions. So when a

16:59

team, when a client is asking about should I do this ad

17:06

campaign? Should I pay to play with this? Should I do this

17:06

event? They can say, okay, is this going to reach the target

17:14

audience? Is this going to reach readers and make a judgment

17:14

call? And maybe they'll still present it to me, but I'll ask

17:22

them. Okay, well, what do you think? And hopefully, they get

17:22

to the right decision. Because again, it's, I think we

17:29

talked about this, gosh, it must have been a few years ago

17:29

now. Can you teach creative? Like, can you teach creativity?

17:37

And can you outsource your brain? Basically, like, can you

17:37

teach someone to think like you, I don't want people

17:44

thinking exactly like me, because I don't need a clone, I

17:44

need, but I need again, the someone who is going to make

17:51

decisions in this and evaluate things in the way I would.

17:51

And I think this is the key to it, right? Like if you want

17:59

people to make these high level decisions, because at the

17:59

time, I was thinking, I could ever outsource fielding the

18:06

new clients. Like I can't outsource that like, and then I

18:06

realized, like, oh, wait, I definitely can. I have a method

18:13

to how I evaluate if they're a good fit? Making checklists?

18:13

Like having people on calls and me telling them, okay,

18:21

here's what they said, and here's what I heard. And then

18:21

them doing the calls. And then them telling me, this is what

18:28

they said, and this is what I heard. And so you can train

18:28

people to do business in the way that you do. And if you

18:36

have if you're very clear on your values, and very clear on

18:36

your why that's going to make it all the more all the more easier.

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cozyearth.com. Okay, perfect then let's dive into this a little more. I

19:57

feel like we just gave it like a really good 30,000 foot

20:02

view. Like here's kind of what it is, here's why it matters.

20:02

Here's how it helps. But what does it actually look like to

20:08

build a company culture because I think this is like a make

20:08

it or break it. Like you're either doing it or you were very

20:14

much so not doing it. And it's very obvious, I think for

20:14

anyone within the organization and oftentimes even outside

20:21

of an organization, whether or not you're doing it like it's

20:21

if it's toxic, everybody knows. If it's not working,

20:28

everybody knows and no one feels good about it. But when it

20:28

is it can really be a magical thing that makes some great

20:34

things happen. So when it comes to company culture, how do

20:34

you nurture it in your team? What does it look like? Sort of

20:43

what does it entail? And how are you infusing it maybe from

20:43

even like the very beginning, maybe even like at the hiring

20:50

phase, all the way through to just any old Tuesday?

20:55

Well, definitely at the hiring phase, I try to

20:55

get a sense if they are community minded. If they're

21:00

consistent, like, you know, when you interview people, it's

21:00

a performance. And some people are good performers. And you

21:07

try to ask questions that get to the root of some of the

21:07

things and get them to show their true colors. So if what

21:14

I'm hearing in an interview does not align with what I saw

21:14

in the cover letter with what I saw on a resume, with some

21:20

of the answers that they got those sorts of things so I can

21:20

see consistency, I can look at their I'll ask them questions

21:28

about things that they, or how are they active in their

21:28

community, and just get a sense of their community

21:33

mindedness. And then I always ask questions that try to get

21:33

a hint of their creativity. Like, do you have any passions

21:39

outside of work? Do you, tell me about something you did,

21:39

created, that you were really proud of those sorts of things

21:46

just to get a sense of they are creative thinkers. And so

21:46

the hiring process is definitely the first one.

21:50

I also I have a note here that I want to

21:50

add, one of the things that I also find whenever you go

21:57

along this line of values oriented questioning and the

21:57

hiring process, is that those who resonate with it are more

22:05

likely to excitedly follow up

22:08

100%.

22:08

Right, and not just like a general like, oh,

22:08

you know, it was nice meeting you last week how to go. But

22:12

like someone who's going to reply back and be like, that was

22:12

the best interview I've ever had. Right? I would love to

22:18

know if I can work with you or not whatever it may be that

22:18

it it does have some filtering on its own just by asking

22:25

those kinds of questions.

22:26

Yeah. And you sell the candidate in many ways,

22:26

right? Like, you're, I think we talked about this in context

22:32

of brand, but you want to be a magnet, you want to attract

22:32

the right people and repel the wrong people. And so I think

22:38

that asking these types of interview questions that they're

22:38

not expecting that dive a little deeper, which is also

22:45

again, part of our culture, like I hate small talk. That's

22:45

my personal, personal thing, I hate small talk. Let's go

22:51

deep right away. And so if you if that turns you off, if you

22:51

want to talk about weather and nonsense, I'm like, I don't

22:58

think you're going to like our check in, we have a weekly we

22:58

have two weekly team meetings, but the kickoff one on

23:04

Monday, we always have a check in question. And these aren't

23:04

like, occasionally we'll get a favorite TV show or something

23:10

like that. But usually, it's like, what's sparking your

23:10

creativity? What if you were on a desert island and could

23:15

only read one genre? What would it be? And like, it causes

23:15

people to think very differently. And I think, again, that's

23:22

it's infused, it's infused in our culture. And if you're

23:22

thrown off by these non are these a typical questions, then

23:28

yeah, not the right fit. It's in our handbook. It's our

23:28

onboarding process. So our onboarding process. Again,

23:34

consistency, like we have a very buttoned up onboarding

23:34

process, we have a handbook. I'm saying this from this

23:43

position. But I, there's no shame because I did not have

23:43

this all in place three years ago. But we hired a lot of

23:50

people. And so I had to get, get that in place real quick. And so

23:50

even that piece of infusing some of the culture in the way I

23:58

word, my handbook, so you might do a template from I don't

23:58

know, Google or whatever about like an employee handbook,

24:05

but you need to put your stuff in it like it needs to be in

24:05

your voice, your company's voice. What you include in the

24:12

handbook has a lot to do with what you reflect is important.

24:12

So even things like a part of our culture is a lot about

24:21

self reliance and autonomy. And so in the employee, we'd

24:21

have non prescribed vacation days. And in the handbook, we

24:29

say, we assume that you are going to take vacation, it is

24:29

healthy for you to take time away from work, here is the

24:38

process for notifying when you're going to be out of the

24:38

office. So even that framing, of like we expect this to

24:47

happen, we appreciate work life balance. And this is how you

24:47

do it. So that that's infused in the handbook. And it's also

24:56

when I try to make when I think about making decisions. So

24:56

like right now, one of the decisions I'm having to make is

25:02

how to handle some of the health insurance stuff. We have

25:02

employee on Medicare, I have to do her things differently

25:10

than health insurance. Some people are on their husbands or

25:10

wives or parents health insurance, so I'm not paying for it.

25:18

Does that matter? So I'm constantly looking through this

25:18

lens of what does what are the benefits we offer? What are

25:26

the structures you have in place and what does that say

25:26

about our company culture? Because part of it is like

25:32

equity, not equality, honestly. And so if giving everyone

25:32

$500 dollars for their health insurance isn't, it's equal,

25:42

that's not equitable, because if the 64 year old needs more

25:42

than the 25 year old, it doesn't matter. So it's even just

25:50

infusing in how you're like your policies, your procedures,

25:50

your benefits. Again, putting it through the lens of like

25:57

your value is putting through the lens of like, what are you

25:57

conveying by doing it this way?

26:02

And I think that the fact, it drives my accountant crazy

26:02

sometimes, because he's like, just give everyone a flat,

26:08

like, what are you doing, but I'm like, but that's not what

26:08

we do. Like we're tailored, we're not cookie cutter, like

26:15

our clients don't have cookie cutter campaigns, they're all

26:15

tailored, are we again, this, this idea of equity versus

26:23

equality is really important to me. And so we need to infuse

26:23

that into everything. And what happens is, people see that

26:30

oh, and the other thing with our handbook that I was very

26:30

conscious about is about, we don't have maternity leave, we

26:37

have caregiver leave. So whatever care, if you're leaving to

26:37

take care of a sick parent, a sick, an injured spouse, a

26:47

child, if you really want to make an argument for your dog,

26:47

I can maybe get on board with that. But like the but this

26:54

idea to have like, you know, we're not a one size fits all,

26:54

like it's not, I'm not going to penalize people who don't

27:02

have kids. And I'm not going to, and I want to make sure

27:02

that if people I mean, we're reaching this age, right, like

27:10

aging parents is the thing. And if they need that time to

27:10

there's no difference to me from caring for a newborn and

27:16

caring for an elderly parent, for a time, so even just, I

27:16

really look at like the benefits packages, the structure, I

27:25

think all of that is infused into the company culture. And

27:25

with that too this idea of community. So when people go on

27:33

vacation, or when people have to take a leave, we all know

27:33

that we need to step up. And therefore the person who's

27:42

taking vacation is very mindful that when they leave, other

27:42

people are stepping up, and that they would do it for vice

27:49

versa, the roles would be reversed at some point. So I think

27:49

that also creates a sense of that like that also bakes in

27:57

this idea of community. So like when you leave, you're

27:57

leaning on someone to cover your stuff, so that when someone

28:05

else leaves, you don't feel resentful, you actually feel

28:05

grateful that you can return the favor.

28:11

Yeah, this is the thing that I want to

28:11

highlight here is that all of this, most of what you just

28:17

mentioned, is the employee handbook, which is the thing that

28:17

they are being like that is the document that they read

28:26

their first moments on payroll, right? Like this is how you

28:26

start the conversation, it's having all of these things in

28:34

one place. And I will say I've been very open about this

28:34

too. I also did not have one of these until it was time for

28:39

me to really grow the team. And I did. And similarly, when

28:39

it comes to those values, this is something that I say

28:47

whenever I'm onboarding people, but it is something that has

28:47

to be infused throughout. It's all based on these values.

28:56

And if you cannot draw that line of consistency through what

28:56

it is that you say and what it is that you do, then you have

29:06

an opportunity to more holistically approach your company

29:06

culture in a way that it is fully aligned with your why and

29:15

how being your values. And it really does start in this case

29:15

with the first thing they do when they show up to work for

29:26

you.

29:27

And I would encourage even those of you who have

29:27

not hired people yet, or have just hired contractors or VAs,

29:36

to still have an employee handbook, it might not be as

29:36

detailed it might feel a little silly. But as entrepreneurs,

29:43

we are awful bosses to ourselves, right? Like, if if you get

29:43

paid if an employee would get paid bi weekly, then you sure

29:54

as hell better be paying yourself bi weekly. Right? Like if

29:54

you expect people to take vacation then use yourself should

30:01

be taking vacation. If you expect your employees to show up

30:01

on time and to deliver stuff on time. You better do the

30:08

same. And I think that it's like I said it seems silly but

30:08

like we're not good employees to ourselves. Like yeah, we

30:16

tend to overwork or under work sometimes right like if we're

30:16

feeling overwhelmed, we might hide or ghost or you know what

30:25

we've, me and you have, not us Emily, but we've seen this

30:25

happen.

30:29

Yeah.

30:29

And you know, we also will like forego vacations

30:29

or like Oh, cash is tight this month. I'm not going to pay

30:35

myself and like those are all horrible habits. So even

30:35

making an employee handbook for yourself so that you can be

30:43

a better employee for your own company. And same thing like

30:43

looking at through the lens of your values looking at

30:50

through the lens of the culture. And the bonus is that when

30:50

you do hire an employee, you'll have it ready.

30:55

Yeah, and a couple. All of that is very

30:55

true. I also think by you, being your best employee, in all

31:05

of those ways, you especially once you start hiring folks,

31:05

it becomes more and more important for you to follow your

31:13

own rules.

31:16

Because you're like, it doesn't do any good if we

31:16

have unprescribed vacation time. If I never take a vacation.

31:24

Yeah.

31:24

Right, then they're gonna be like, Oh, well,

31:24

Dana, never. She works all the time and never takes vacation

31:30

and doesn't have any boundaries. So how am I supposed to do

31:30

that? You kind of set the stage for the rest of this.

31:37

For sure. And I even think, you know, the

31:37

very smallest part of this is our dress code at the shop.

31:43

Because I have a bunch of college kids working, I put a

31:43

dress code in place, it has since been loosened, because I

31:49

they didn't all dress like nine year olds. Which I was

31:49

afraid, you just go into it not knowing what to expect. But

31:56

I dressed like my expectation of a nine year old or

31:56

whatever, until we decided to loosen it up. And one day

32:04

David was leaving for work in something inappropriate,

32:04

obviously not like on a grand scale inappropriate by any

32:10

means. But like his shirt was the wrong color. And I was

32:10

like, um, but sir. And he's like, I'm the boss. I'm like,

32:17

exactly, which is exactly why you should be following the

32:17

instructions to the tee. You are the you are the mold for

32:27

the consistency. Right? And all the ways whether you like it

32:27

or not, this is like this is what being a leader is whether

32:34

you like it or not.

32:35

You're the model, right? Like it's not. I feel

32:35

like there was a lot of this might have been like in the

32:41

early like late 90s, early 2000s, where it was like, yeah,

32:41

the boss did whatever they want, and everyone else just had

32:46

to fall in line. Like that's not the case anymore. Like we

32:46

are all leaders are leaders and also employees. I also love

32:53

that David's, it was just wearing the wrong color because we

32:53

use it inappropriate. I'm like, was he wearing a crop top

32:58

booty shorts? Or what? What was he going on?

33:00

I will say, I actually put some of the dress

33:00

code things in place, because he had this really awful habit

33:08

of wearing this one pair of jeans that totally had a hole in

33:08

the butt like his, his like pocket had like, you know, come

33:15

apart. And so like, I was like, Okay, I'm gonna have to put

33:15

literally no holes above your knees for David so that you

33:22

will stop thinking that those jeans are appropriate.

33:25

Well, and that brings up a good point that you

33:25

might not understand what you need to infuse into your

33:30

company culture. Until it's, you're faced with it.

33:34

For sure.

33:34

Right? So like, as you're hiring people, they

33:34

might. I always laugh. It's like when you when we were baby

33:41

proofing the house for the kiddo. And like he showed us

33:41

where to baby proof. Right? Like whatever he got into,

33:46

that's what we needed to baby proof. And it's the same with

33:46

employees, not that they're babies. But like that, you they

33:52

they will you'll start to see things and you'll say like,

33:52

Oh, we don't have a procedure in place for giving pure, like

33:59

how do we give peer feedback? Or how do we who reports to

33:59

who or who gives feedback to whom and when, and you start to

34:08

see those things happen. And they're like, Okay, now we need

34:08

to have a system in place. Now we need to have a process in

34:13

place. And you as the boss, need to, like model all of that,

34:13

right? So like if your policy our policy is, is that if you

34:23

need feedback, or have questions on something, you first go,

34:23

you first try to find it yourself. That's the first. And

34:30

then second is you go to the person who assigned you that

34:30

task. So if I get a, so the same goes for me, right? Like so

34:36

if I get assigned a task that I don't understand. My first

34:36

instinct is just Gchat the person and I'm like, oh, no, no,

34:45

I need to do some research. I need to see if I miss

34:45

something. And so I have to follow my own rules and go and

34:52

like and then when I do go to the person say I looked here

34:52

in here and I can't find it. Can you tell me where it is or

34:59

if it's missing or etc. So I think there's a little bit of

34:59

you'll set it up. But it's an ongoing process. And it's an

35:07

ongoing, it's an ongoing process. And there's a lot of

35:07

evolution. So when new team members come, when offerings

35:14

change, when the industry changes, you might be faced with

35:14

different things. I don't think culture changes that much.

35:21

But at the same time we saw a big upheaval in how we work.

35:21

Right? Like we saw a huge amount of change in our perception

35:30

around work. I think you and me Emily have always been doing

35:30

business. I think the quotes is on our own terms, live life

35:37

on your own terms. We've always been doing that. But that's

35:37

but when we're hiring people who haven't always been doing

35:44

that, we have to kind of retrain and reframe. And so your

35:44

your company culture will evolve as industry standards

35:53

change as kind of our society adapts and grows. And so I'd

35:53

love to say that like, we haven't changed much, but I think

36:01

we always we do make tweaks and crank different dials and

36:01

elaborate in certain places.

36:08

Yeah, I think there's a core that stays the

36:08

same, but this other part of it does have to be malleable

36:13

based on when and where we are. Okay, what is this company

36:13

culture piece look like on an ongoing basis?

36:23

On an ongoing basis. So I think that establishing

36:23

from the, just from any part of it, or a part of you, as a

36:32

boss, okay. So I think that we are always faced, there's

36:32

seldom a week in our company where it's just like, head down

36:41

doing work, right, there's always something that comes up

36:41

whether it's a new business opportunity, or a new

36:47

partnership, or an crisis or issue. And so the ongoing piece

36:47

is speaking with the team and speaking with clients in the

36:58

language that enforces this culture. So when people, so for

36:58

example, we just had one of our team members just got back

37:07

from a conference. And I asked her in the meeting to share

37:07

the, how the conference went. And when she shared that, she

37:16

was able to, like, support our current clients, introduce

37:16

them to people, meet new ones. And when she talked about how

37:24

she spent her time at the conference, that in and of itself,

37:24

reinforced this idea of community like this is how we, as a

37:32

team members show up at a conference, like you're not

37:32

hanging at the hotel bar, you're not, you know, just going

37:39

to the parties, like you're there to support our authors,

37:39

she was speaking there, she worked one of our clients who

37:45

was there and to her talk, like all of those things. So

37:45

again, I think modeling and bringing people up who highlight

37:54

our culture piece. So if someone is going to a conference

37:54

and how, how she can reinforce community. If I share I had a

38:03

difficult conversation with a client, here's how I handled

38:03

it. Or we were or the marketing person had a call with a new

38:11

media platform or new social media platform, which they feel

38:11

it's like they're popping up all the time. Like, so when she

38:18

presents it, she presents it in a way and through the lens

38:18

of like our values through the lens of how we do business,

38:25

all of those things. So it's modeling from a boss

38:25

standpoints modeling the language, and then it's

38:31

highlighting when other people modeled language. So I will

38:31

highlight, I really enjoyed this creative solution to this

38:38

problem. I really like how this sense of community was with

38:38

you throughout the conference, and just pinpointing how this

38:48

reinforces. I also think that some conversations are meant to be held in

38:48

public and some are meant to be out in private, but whenever

38:57

you as a business owner can address something on the company

38:57

stage, I guess would be the thing, that will also help

39:07

reinforce so an example for us was HarperCollins Publishers

39:07

went on strike. We have a lot of HarperCollins authors and

39:18

HarperCollins themselves as the client and a lot of the team

39:18

members were had their opinions about what we should do but

39:26

they really look to me to make a decision and I said that we

39:26

are not we don't cross virtual pick, we don't cross picket

39:33

lines virtual or otherwise. So we will not, we're going to

39:33

fulfill our contract we have just like one month left on the

39:39

contract. We're gonna fulfill our contract with

39:39

HarperCollins but we're not taking on new contracts and

39:43

we're gonna keep working with our authors and not leave them

39:43

in the lurch because that's about the author and so even

39:48

just like during these moments these make or break moments

39:48

and you got to put your, they to have them see me put my

39:55

money where my mouth is because we got lots lots of inbound

39:55

from Harper during that time right like they need they have

40:03

all their employees on strike they need help. If they ever needed PR.

40:10

I'm like we'll do PR for the for the Union. But I think that

40:10

that's that's really too like it's not just in the everyday

40:18

it's also I think it when it really sticks is in the in

40:18

these tough in the tough times. So like when we had to fire

40:28

a, we've had to fire maybe one or two clients over the

40:28

years. And when and being the one who says like Nope, this

40:36

is now this is no longer our ideal client, this is no longer

40:36

a good working relationship, I don't think they value us,

40:42

therefore we're going to say no, and make them whole. And I

40:42

think just being the model for how to handle those difficult

40:51

things will not only reinforce your values, reinforce your

40:51

company culture, but it also gives employees a sense that

41:00

they're being taken care of. I think that's what's also

41:00

really important, right? Because I mean, I've never had a

41:07

real job. So it's hard for me to say, but I, based on my

41:07

employees, they all have workplace trauma of their bosses,

41:13

throwing them under the bus or making really egregious

41:13

demands and just not having their back. And so I think that

41:21

that, also when you as a leader can make these tough

41:21

decisions in the best interest of your team members, that

41:29

reinforces the company culture, that you're a team. Right?

41:29

They're not there to support you, and to do your bidding.

41:37

Like you are an actual team.

41:40

Yeah, oh, yes to all of those things. I want

41:40

to bring up this, like consistency builds legitimacy, slash

41:47

builds trust that is internal as well, which is what you're

41:47

talking about. That's not just your customers trusting you.

41:53

But that's your team trusting you and each other to as

41:53

you're building this consistency of action and decision

41:59

making, and all of these things, which is really powerful.

41:59

And I also love that what you're talking about here, is just

42:05

follow through.

42:09

It's doing what you say.

42:11

Yeah. Simply.

42:11

And like with everything, I think we all so I

42:11

wish I could cite the study exactly. There was a study

42:19

talking about the elements of trust, congruent, we all value

42:19

different elements. There's like five, I think, five

42:24

elements of trust, all of us value different things. One of

42:24

the big ones is congruency. Do you say, do you do what you

42:33

say and say what you do. And that builds up trust. And so if

42:33

I say how many how many, how many people who worked for

42:41

shitty companies would hear the line, we're a family. Like,

42:41

but you're not.

42:48

Red flag.

42:48

Red flag. Or say like we value our this was a big

42:48

issue with the Harper Collins Union, we value our diverse

42:55

employees. But when you're not paying them a living wage,

42:55

and giving them only like pigeonholing them into certain

43:04

types of books, because of their diverse backgrounds, like,

43:04

doesn't feel super good, right? So if I'm telling you, so if

43:12

I'm telling you, I expect you to take vacation, you have

43:12

unprescribed vacation, and then anytime you notify me about

43:19

a vacation, I have a reason that you can't take it, or I

43:19

kind of looked disappointed, right? Like, that's not

43:27

congruent, that teaches that, that you lose trust with your

43:27

team members. So if they then they start to fear, they start

43:35

to fear, what kind of response are going to get. The same as

43:35

with feedback. So if they, if you teach them that, when they

43:43

present a problem to you, you yell at them, you judge them,

43:43

you get like, angry, you dismiss them, whatever it is, then

43:52

what's gonna happen is they're gonna start not coming to you

43:52

with problems, and they're just gonna try to quietly shove

43:57

it under the rug. And so again, if you're, like I am have

43:57

opened if your value is communication and openness and

44:04

collaboration, and then that's a good example, Emily. So

44:04

like, if you value collaboration, and then every time

44:11

someone on your team presents an idea, and you're just like,

44:11

Nope, no, thanks. No, we're not doing that. Next, then

44:19

they're gonna not believe you anymore. And so I think that

44:19

you have to the congruency, the piece that builds up that

44:25

trust, again, with your customers or your clients, but also

44:25

with your team members. And I think that's why so many

44:33

bigger companies are having trouble keeping their team

44:33

members, because there's not a trust with them. They don't

44:39

trust their team, they don't trust their boss, they don't

44:39

trust their corporation, and they want to leave. And that's

44:45

why we get such great employees.

44:49

Indeed, we get to heal them in all of their

44:49

and all of their corporate trauma. No, I agree

44:55

wholeheartedly with all of these things. I feel like, I feel

44:55

like you hit all the nuggets all the important nuggets with

45:01

the giving them the language to use and you using the

45:01

language by you being the example by which you know,

45:09

everything is happening as hard as it can be sometimes, and

45:09

really just continuing with the company culture after

45:15

onboarding, I think that that really is the thing where I

45:15

recently did a 30 day review with my newest hire and when I

45:24

brought her in this was not the first crystal store she had

45:24

ever worked for. And but immediately was like really

45:33

impressed with our organization and communication and like

45:33

you know, I handed her an employee handbook and I handed her

45:37

a copy of our performance review sort of first day of like,

45:37

these are the things that you're going to be like that we're

45:42

going to be discussing. Every like always constantly. This

45:42

is the language we're going to be using in 30 days in and

45:49

she was like it really is like this. And I was like, yeah,

45:49

it's not all smoke and mirrors like this is really how we

45:58

run the thing. And I think that really, that sort of builds

45:58

that trust that keeps everyone going. And it also is in

46:05

place because everyone is practicing these things, right?

46:05

It's not just me and the person, it's me and every employee.

46:11

Settling yourself into the flow of your business from

46:11

navigating a whole year of ebbs and flows to embracing the

46:19

energy of each and every day, you're bound to have some ups

46:19

and downs along the way. For me, this journey of

46:27

entrepreneurship is made better when my space keeps me

46:27

focused and inspired. As an example, my favorite way to mark

46:34

the beginning and ending of the work day is to light a

46:34

candle when I sit down at my desk, and then blow it out when

46:40

I'm done for the day. It's a little ritual that creates

46:40

boundaries and a vibe that keeps me focused and feeling

46:46

cozy. And the ritual candle that we make at Almanac Supply

46:46

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46:53

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47:00

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47:00

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47:26

Which sort of brings me into maybe our next two questions.

47:26

One being how, what does one do if there are people within

47:35

an organization who conflict with company values, ever

47:35

experienced that one?

47:43

Yes. I think that yes, and no, I think that not

47:43

all of our, the company values aren't necessarily the

47:54

personal values, right? So everyone's coming in with their

47:54

own values. And that doesn't mean that that aligns with the

48:01

company values. However, in the context of work, it should a

48:01

great example, this is gonna sound shitty, but we're just

48:10

gonna say it. So like community is not one of my personal

48:10

values.

48:15

Yeah.

48:16

So again, I volunteer, I enjoy my friends, all of

48:16

those things. And I enjoy spending a lot of time by myself.

48:27

And I find collaboration really, really challenging. And so

48:27

it's not one of my values. However, as a company, it's

48:37

important, I want my company to be a good literary citizen,

48:37

I want our company to be thought of as someone who engages

48:46

in the community, who is active, who uplifts other authors,

48:46

not just their clients, who supports bookstores and

48:54

libraries, and literacy and all those things. So I think

48:54

that that's from a personal perspective, like that is a push

49:00

and pull, right? Because there's definitely times where I'm

49:00

like, I want the company to do this. But community expands

49:07

beyond. So like, you know, we did for the team, like a

49:07

virtual holiday party, the entire team wanted the holiday

49:15

party. And again, I loved it, it was fun, I love everyone on

49:15

our team. And also, I find those incredibly draining, not to

49:24

plan, I can plan a good party, but like, you know, dealing

49:24

with all of that is is a lot for me. And so I think that it

49:32

just shows our personal values sometimes show up in conflict

49:32

with the company's values, and then we need to recalibrate.

49:39

I also think that sometimes people's values, let's say, one

49:39

person values, freedom, and other person values reliability.

49:49

And those can sometimes be at odds because one person wants

49:49

everyone to be working the same hours that they always do

49:56

when someone else wants to be able to like take a run at

49:56

midday or go get their nails done in the afternoon or

50:02

whatever it is. And so I think that, again, going back to

50:02

the company, you have to kind of recalibrate everyone

50:09

through the company values. But if they if their personal values are so at odds with the

50:11

company values, then they probably aren't a good fit and

50:16

they probably shouldn't have made it through the several

50:16

steps like the way you post your job, which we've talked

50:23

about in the other episodes like the way you posted your job

50:23

description. The places you posted your job description, the

50:29

way you do the interview, like they should have all been

50:29

filtered out. Definitely filtered out at the 30 day review

50:34

if you've hired them like you should be able to see but

50:34

throughout our working careers, there's these personal

50:41

conflicts are going to be at odds. So like one example was,

50:41

like, during the pandemic, all of our authors events went

50:50

remote or went virtual. So all of a sudden, in theory, we

50:50

could attend all of our author's events, not just the ones

50:59

in our local market. And so a couple of the employees said

50:59

to me, like, we really need to be going to all these and I

51:06

said, I'm so sorry, like, I can't even, like I'm, I'm having

51:06

like anxiety. I'm like homeschooling a child, everyone's in

51:15

my house, like, I just can't, I haven't left my house, I

51:15

can't do anything. I can't do it. So then we had this, but

51:20

she was right through this community lens, we needed to

51:20

figure out how to support our clients, and the bookstores

51:26

and whatever. So we had a schedule, where one person from

51:26

our team went to every event, like there was at least one

51:33

person being represented, the expectation was you didn't

51:33

want a week, never more. And that we kind of all agreed on

51:42

that. So I think there's going to be things that come up

51:42

where your personal values and the company values do

51:46

conflict. And there has to be some sort of middle ground or

51:46

some sort of, like a negotiation that that takes place.

51:56

Yeah. I have a couple things I want to share

51:56

around this. Because, yes, the idea is that people will self

52:02

select, as you are going through those initial pieces. But I

52:02

mean, even I've had people who made it through who like once

52:10

we were in there, and I saw past that, like, the performance

52:10

and like, oh, some things are a little off here. And maybe

52:18

not even like terribly off. I, my most recent one was

52:18

someone that I just kept saying, like she's, she's doing a

52:26

good job. Right? Not a great job, not the best like, but

52:26

like barely a good job. And so one of those situations

52:34

where, where it wasn't a very clear situ, though, I think,

52:34

to everyone around me, they were like, No, Emily, it's

52:40

clear. But regardless, I think two things that I want to

52:40

say, well, actually three things. One, self select goes far

52:49

beyond those initial stages, the one that I'm talking about

52:49

self selected still, like there was a point where she

52:55

realized, nope, I'm done. And I was like, great, I don't

52:55

gotta do this for you. Perfect. So like self selection is

53:00

still a thing. But in the event that self selection does not

53:00

happen. I mean, when hard conversations are a must and

53:09

absolute must, I recently had to have a conversation with

53:09

someone at the store who was was acting in a way that was in

53:16

direct conflict to our values, one of our values is

53:16

experiencing they, or is is experience, they were making the

53:23

experience for some of our co workers a little difficult.

53:23

And so I sat them down for a hard conversation about how

53:33

their actions are in direct conflict with our company

53:33

values. And it was a great conversation. Right, a really

53:41

hard one to sit down to do but ended wonderfully. And their

53:41

performance is that much better because of it.

53:49

And it's not personal.

53:51

Yeah. No.

53:52

I think that's what really makes it great, right?

53:52

It's not my opinion.

53:55

Yes.

53:55

It's not like, I don't like this about you. It's

53:55

that this will like this behavior, right? It's not a

54:01

subjective thing. It's this behavior does not align with the

54:01

company values, as per the handbook that you signed.

54:09

Yes.

54:10

About the situation not about you or me.

54:13

Yes. And that, like we're all practicing,

54:13

you're just not whatever it may be.

54:18

You just need to get a little bit of a refresher

54:18

a little bit of a tune-up.

54:23

Yeah.Yep. And like, and we all talk because

54:23

everyone trusts me, right? More than anything, because I am

54:33

here like, doing the thing in the in the the best capacity I

54:33

can. So there was like a hard conversation. And then

54:39

finally, this is also where you fire people, if necessary,

54:39

and if allowable in your state.

54:45

Please consult Autumn Witt Boyd.

54:49

Indeed, indeed, give it a Google to make

54:49

sure you can, but I've definitely had I can think I can

54:56

actually only think of one time in particular, where I

54:56

needed to let someone go for this sort of company value

55:06

purpose. Like they were just like a thorn in everyone's

55:06

side. In just like a light way, that's still enough of a way

55:13

that people were concerned and it was affecting

55:13

deliverables. And they were also client facing like all

55:18

these repercussions, and sitting down and having a serious

55:18

conversation and really it being like, it's obvious to

55:24

everyone that you are not happy here. And so let's talk

55:24

about what this looks like. And again, there's context for a

55:32

conversation that really leads to the best solution in all

55:32

cases.

55:37

And that toxicity is contagious. Absolutely, it

55:37

is a virus that will spread through your company. I, and it

55:48

has in the tricky part about firing. So there is an employee

55:48

that I took way too long to fire. And the reason is, is like

55:56

you said she did good work.

55:58

Yeah.

55:59

The work was good, not exceptional, right. But

55:59

exceptionality isn't a company value. And so I think that

56:06

she did good work. But again, her demeanor, the way she

56:06

showed up for people, those were the kinds of things that

56:15

like just weren't happening, and ultimately, it was a

56:15

culture fit. And but it took me a long time to get my head

56:20

around it because like, again, on paper, it's like, okay,

56:20

well, she's getting the stuff. She's doing the work, she's

56:25

showing up on time. But she's, but there was something off,

56:25

there was something like a little misaligned, right, the car

56:31

was rattling a little bit on the way to the store. And so it

56:31

took me longer for that reason to fire her. If she was, you

56:38

know, not delivering work on time, if she was acting, you

56:38

know, in a different way, it would have been easy. But this

56:44

kind of nuanced thing. It's like this feeling of like,

56:44

something is just not right, like something, the way she's

56:50

delivered, the way she's talking to clients just doesn't

56:50

feel exactly right. The way she's showing up at these events

56:54

doesn't feel exactly right. Even if on paper, the work is

56:54

fine. So I think that as soon as you know, I mean, obviously

57:02

have a conversation, document what you need to document be

57:02

legal, and legit. But for me, Illinois, is an at will state.

57:11

And I think that I in hindsight would have liked to I think

57:11

I should have let her go a little bit. Like, you know, at

57:18

least a few months before I actually did it.

57:21

Yeah. Oh, maybe that'll be next one is

57:21

firing.

57:26

I've done that quite a bit. And we'll talk about

57:26

that.

57:30

And everyone always thinks me when I'm done.

57:35

I think we have a few people in the C-Suite who

57:35

can talk about firing. And every time we the thing is is

57:40

like we care about people. So like we lament over this, we

57:40

like stress about it, we like practice. And then every time

57:45

it happens, they're like the employee who we think is going

57:45

to freak out. All the stuff just says, okay, and leaves

57:52

every friggin time. They don't want to stay there.

57:54

Easy peasy. No, they don't. Okay. One more

57:54

well, kind of two ish more questions, but one of them is

58:02

we've both done this. So I'm wondering what your thoughts

58:02

are on this idea of taking an in person team remote, because

58:08

I know there are a lot of people who like who have done

58:08

this, especially over the past couple of years, or maybe

58:13

even tactics for each. So what makes for great in person,

58:13

community or culture building and what makes for great

58:21

remote team culture building.

58:24

I'd like to say it's the same. But it just shows

58:24

up I think in a different a little bit of a different way.

58:30

So when we weren't, we weren't remote in 2016. And we had at

58:30

the time, a handful, No, only two employee, two employees in

58:41

Chicago. And the rest were remote. And going through the

58:41

lens of community, it didn't feel right, that we were in a

58:49

conference room and then some people were on a computer,

58:49

like it felt very disjointed, it felt disconnected. And when

58:57

we went remote, a lot of it was that we wanted everyone to

58:57

be on the same playing field, right? Like when we get on a

59:02

meeting, we're all on the computer. We're all on Zoom. And I

59:02

think that that, again, going through that lens consistency,

59:10

we're all showing up in the same place. Community, we're all

59:10

equal all those things. When we were in the office, you

59:20

know, it's funny, Emily, I don't think that it's actually

59:20

that different, but it might show up in different ways just

59:27

based on the interpersonal aspect, right. So like right now,

59:27

our culture we have a I know you do too, like how to

59:36

communicate with your team members for these kinds of things

59:36

for non urgent project related things. You post it in Asana,

59:45

for like things that need collaboration, like, Hey, can we

59:45

talk through a pitch or can we talk through my strategy was

59:53

quite schedule a call, like get face to face and schedule a

59:53

call? If it's a quick one line answer type of thing. You can

1:00:01

Gchat, like we have like the standard procedures. And that's

1:00:01

part of our culture. And part of our culture is respecting

1:00:08

other people's time. Honestly, that's really what it comes

1:00:08

down to. In the office, we had a really cool loft space, no

1:00:16

open concept floor plan. Me and my publicity manager have

1:00:16

known each other since college. We were good friends. I

1:00:25

hired my very good friend. It worked out she's been with me

1:00:25

eight years. But I think there wasn't I think that was also

1:00:32

a little tricky. There was no policies in place of like,

1:00:32

when she could just swing her desk towards mine and be like

1:00:38

Like, Oh, hey, did you see that? Whatever. So I think it's a

1:00:38

little in some ways, it's a little bit easier to have those

1:00:44

boundaries in a, in a remote setting, and those standard

1:00:44

operating procedures in a remote setting. Because I think

1:00:53

that some of the interpersonal stuff is a little bit

1:00:53

different. But ultimately, the culture of consistency,

1:01:00

creative problem solving, being mindful of your employees

1:01:00

equity, not equality, all of those things, it translates

1:01:07

whether it's in person or, or remote. I'm curious Emily

1:01:07

about your experience and their reach because you have a

1:01:14

guide to, you know, we have a retail shop and an online

1:01:14

business. Have you noticed a difference?

1:01:19

For sure? Oh, yes. And yes, and no similar

1:01:19

to you like, yes, in a lot of ways, or in some ways, and no,

1:01:26

and all the ways that really matter, right, you show up and

1:01:26

you do the things in the way you're supposed to do them, you

1:01:31

communicate the way you expect everyone to, like you do all

1:01:31

the things, no matter whether it's remote, or in person. And

1:01:39

I think of Indie, in particular, we were together, there was

1:01:39

three or four of us. You know, in the office, we were went

1:01:47

remote in 2015. And I remember that shift being difficult

1:01:47

for culture, and mostly because we had to figure out the new

1:01:57

ways of practicing it, right. Similarly, you couldn't just

1:01:57

like turn your chair around and be like, Hey, we close that

1:02:03

client, high five, or for us, we always took a shot, which

1:02:03

is right, and that was part of the culture. And then

1:02:09

actually, we would also always end our work days, or not

1:02:09

always. But very often, with a game of darts, we played a

1:02:16

lot of darts in the office, it was a ton of fun. And when we

1:02:16

went remote, actually, Corey, just the other day was like

1:02:23

Yo, I miss darts. And it's been eight years, seven years

1:02:23

since that have so like there are parts of the culture that

1:02:31

could not translate in quite the same way that we very much

1:02:31

so miss. And that transition was really hard. But also easy

1:02:40

in that it's just taking, like the communication standards

1:02:40

from how we were working in the office to for us, you know,

1:02:47

it's slack and zoom, or whatever it may be. So it's just

1:02:47

finding the new ways, to the new venues for practicing the

1:02:55

company culture, which was difficult, but overall,

1:02:55

practicing them is really about the same. And I would argue

1:03:02

maybe a little bit easier, remote, because it's easier to

1:03:02

have like the standard, you know, operating procedures or

1:03:09

whatever. Whereas I see in the store, or when you're beat or

1:03:09

when you're in physical space with someone a lot, it's

1:03:18

easier to kind of let the communication standard slide,

1:03:18

right, or like, I'm just gonna text you that thing. But

1:03:24

literally don't ever text me. Right? Like, I hate getting

1:03:24

work texts it's my least favorite thing. But it's something

1:03:33

that happens a little bit more in the store. Because like,

1:03:33

I'm just I just ran downstairs real quick, or like I ran out

1:03:40

to lunch. And you know, I'm not going to be checking slack.

1:03:40

And you do just need to know a thing or whatever it may be.

1:03:45

So I actually find it a little more difficult sometimes to

1:03:45

uphold the standards in the in person situations, because

1:03:56

it's so easy to like, go in and out of professionalism, in a

1:03:56

way whereas if I'm hold coming for a 45 minute zoom, I'm

1:04:05

there I'm doing the thing, I'm walking away like you get the

1:04:05

most professional version of Emily. But if I've been hanging

1:04:09

out with you in a store for nine hours, by the end of it,

1:04:09

I'm like, fuck everything. Where's the champagne?

1:04:15

Yeah.

1:04:15

But it'salso impromptu. So I think what you're

1:04:15

touching on is that in person is impromptu. It's impromptu

1:04:22

communication, as opposed to asynchronous communication,

1:04:22

which, being remote, it's more asynchronicity. And I think

1:04:31

that that lends itself to consider like, so if you tell me

1:04:31

something like I don't like I call them surprises. So if you

1:04:35

Like we would all just like clean up the office

1:04:35

together.

1:04:39

drop a bomb on me, during a meeting, I need time to process.

1:04:39

So people know this about me. Or like when I just like go

1:04:49

silent. They're like Dana's thinking. And I think that so

1:04:49

with impromptu communication, it's tricky because someone

1:04:55

does something in the moment and you're like, there's

1:04:55

something that fires, you're not really sure why it's firing

1:05:00

or what you need to do about it. But because you're in

1:05:00

person, like you have to deal with it. Versus if someone

1:05:07

posts something in Asana, they're like, Oh, this isn't

1:05:07

aligned or run a Zoom meeting. And someone says something

1:05:15

that's not really aligned, that you can like pause, think

1:05:15

about it, return to that versus sharing the same space after

1:05:22

that, meaning, it's harder, it's much harder to process.

1:05:22

Absolutely. I also, first of all, your company in person

1:05:30

culture sounds like way more fun. The only thing when you

1:05:30

said that I thought of is that every Friday at three we

1:05:35

would clean the office together. Because we didn't have a

1:05:35

cleaning staff. So we like put on some music and like me the

1:05:44

intern.

1:05:47

Yeah.

1:05:47

Which again, the culture piece is like, we're all

1:05:47

doing this together.

1:05:50

Yeah.

1:05:51

Like we're all this is all together. It's not

1:05:51

like I'm gonna watch the intern clean my office.

1:05:55

Yeah.

1:05:57

But I also think that I think a shot if you're

1:05:57

doing shots like I think Marco Polo is ripe for that, like

1:06:03

close a deal. Taking a shot.

1:06:07

Indeed, indeed, we definitely could have translated that

1:06:07

one, we also would do lunch every Friday, or every other

1:06:13

Friday is actually the schedule that we were on. And we

1:06:13

would do fun things like that that has translated into in

1:06:19

person retreats, and any opportunity, we have to sort of

1:06:19

work in the same space together, we do like it has

1:06:25

translated. But you're also right, like, if I'm in the

1:06:25

store, someone asked me a question. They're sitting there

1:06:31

looking at my face waiting for an immediate answer. Whereas

1:06:31

if it's a Slack, I can pretend like I'm having lunch and

1:06:36

just go talk to somebody about that question, or whatever it

1:06:36

may be, and then come back all fresh and know exactly what

1:06:41

to say. And really have had the time to run it through those

1:06:41

values. And think about not just how Emily would answer this

1:06:48

question or deal with this problem. But how is the company

1:06:48

going to answer this question or deal with this problem? So

1:06:54

it is a it is a little bit different? But in a lot of ways,

1:06:54

it is the exact same, I find. Um, Okay, last question for

1:07:02

you, Dana. If you could give like one tip, for someone who,

1:07:02

let's say, actually, any company that exists already has a

1:07:13

company culture in place, whether it was intentional or not.

1:07:13

Right? So whether you have employees, whether you're working

1:07:19

by yourself, whether you did this on purpose, or you're four

1:07:19

years into it, you're like, oh, shit, something's happening

1:07:25

around me. What do you think is the most impactful thing

1:07:25

that you do? And or that you would recommend others do to

1:07:34

build and maintain an intentional company culture?

1:07:38

I feel like a broken record. But I think it really is

1:07:38

getting clear on your values.

1:07:43

Yeah.

1:07:44

Getting crystal clear on your, your brand prop,

1:07:44

like your your brand summary, your values, like who you are,

1:07:53

what you do, how you do it, how are you showing up to do the

1:07:53

work, get really, really clear on that, and then distill it

1:08:02

down for others. So I think the first step is like, getting

1:08:02

really clear on like, what you value as a company, and then

1:08:11

writing it again, I journal a lot. So I do like some stream

1:08:11

of consciousness stuff, I start highlighting things. And

1:08:19

then I'll pull out what I highlighted and make it into

1:08:19

something presentable. But really, you need to be clear, you

1:08:26

need to be really clear before you can start conveying it to

1:08:26

others. And so I think that's really the first thing to do.

1:08:34

If, if you and I think a lot of us serve this way, right?

1:08:34

Like, I, I started PR, book PR specifically, because I just

1:08:42

had ideas. I was like, I feel like we could do this

1:08:42

differently. I think there's other options, I have some

1:08:48

ideas about how we can promote books. I didn't stop to think

1:08:48

about like, why do I do this? How am I doing this? How is it

1:08:56

unique? Like I didn't really for the first six months, at

1:08:56

least stop to think about that. So now that you're in it,

1:09:01

whether you're day one of your business or day, you know, 10

1:09:01

years in, if you're not clear on exactly like what you do,

1:09:09

why and how the first step is get really crystal clear on

1:09:09

that. And then once you're clear on that, writing it down,

1:09:18

and conveying it in a way that other people can understand

1:09:18

it. Yeah. And then living it every day.

1:09:22

Amen. Amen. No, that really is a thing. And

1:09:22

I would I would second that for sure. beingboss.club/values

1:09:31

is that page where you have all the resources around and I

1:09:31

will say my little extra bit on this you mentioned like

1:09:37

making it crystal clear or defining and all of those things.

1:09:37

I like to think of this on multiple different levels. I like

1:09:43

to think of it as what these values mean, for me, whenever

1:09:43

I'm making a decision for my company. I like to think of it

1:09:49

as what how these values show up when I'm talking to an

1:09:49

employee, or I'm talking to a customer, when my employees

1:09:56

are talking to each other, when my employees are talking to

1:09:56

the customer, right? And then when we're all doing the thing

1:10:02

together because I think it's really easy to be like

1:10:02

byproducts are here to serve, you know, or to like build

1:10:07

community. Right? And then you're just thinking like product

1:10:07

to customer, which is cool, but where this really is magical

1:10:15

and where this really infuse itself into all parts of your

1:10:15

business. As when you think about how you are practicing it,

1:10:21

how your employees are going to practice it, how everybody's

1:10:21

going to like internally how they're going to be practice

1:10:27

with everyone together. Because that is the stuff that once

1:10:27

you get that going and infuses itself naturally into

1:10:34

everything that comes out of it.

1:10:36

Yeah, how you do one thing is how you do

1:10:36

everything.

1:10:39

Amen. You got amen's out of me, Dana. I

1:10:39

don'e even know the last time I did those.

1:10:44

Didn't Kathleen comment on your amens? I feel

1:10:44

like she commented in one of the episodes about it?

1:10:50

Maybe so, who knows? Perfect Dana, tell at

1:10:50

Well, first, thank you for this conversation. I'm so glad we

1:10:58

finally got to this part of it. This was the nugget I've

1:10:58

been trying to dig into this whole time. And then finally,

1:11:09

where can folks find more about you and what you do?

1:11:13

My company website is kayepublicity.com,

1:11:13

kayepublicity.com. And if you're an author looking to learn

1:11:21

more about the publishing industry and promoting your book,

1:11:21

you can check out your breakoutbook.com

1:11:26

Perfect. And then actually, finally,

1:11:26

finally, what's making you feel most boss?

1:11:33

Thought you're gonna ask that. It has nothing to

1:11:33

do with hiring or company culture these days. In the sees

1:11:41

through the help of the C suite, I recently launched a

1:11:41

weekly or twice monthly newsletter called the book PR

1:11:48

report. And what felt really boss was me sitting down for an

1:11:48

hour to write this newsletter that people are paying me for,

1:11:59

for my with just my expertise and my knowledge of these

1:11:59

current trends, and it feels really friggin boss, to have

1:12:07

someone say, I will pay you to send me email. And that

1:12:07

really fueled my morning writing session today.

1:12:17

I think that I could argue that in this day

1:12:17

and age of online marketing, that may be the most badass

1:12:25

thing ever. Having someone literally paid to send you an

1:12:25

email, that's genius.

1:12:34

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