0:40

Welcome to Being Boss, a podcast for

0:40

creatives, business owners and entrepreneurs who want to

0:44

take control of their work and live life on their own terms.

0:44

I'm your host Emily Thompson. And in this episode, I'm

0:50

joined by the OG business bestie, Kathleen Shannon to talk

0:50

about taking business personally, including when you should,

0:58

when you shouldn't, and how you can generally not take it

0:58

too personally when appropriate. You can find all the tools

1:05

books and links we reference on the show notes at

1:05

www.beingboss.club. And if you liked this episode, be sure

1:10

to subscribe to this show and share us with a friend.

1:16

Kathleen Shannon is the co founder and former co host of the

1:16

Being Boss podcast joining me for the first 240ish episodes

1:24

of this show with several one off episode since. Kathleen is

1:24

a partner and creative director at Braid Creative a branding

1:32

agency she founded with her sister over 10 years ago,

1:32

Kathleen has always lived by capturing, shaping and sharing

1:38

who she is, whether that's with a blog post a podcast or on

1:38

social media.

1:44

Hi, Kathleen.

1:45

Hi, Emily.

1:46

How you doing?

1:48

I'm good. How are you?

1:50

Good. I'm very excited to have you back

1:50

again.

1:53

I'm so glad to be back. I live here now.

1:53

I've just moved back in.

2:00

I feel like you've always you've always kept

2:00

a box here. You know a toothbrush?

2:04

Yeah, yeah.

2:05

In case you ever came back.

2:07

Yeah, a pair of underwear or two.

2:10

Yeah. Just in case just in case.

2:12

You know.

2:13

It's been a lot of fun brainstorming ideas

2:13

with you for episodes that we can do together things that

2:18

we're both sort of interested in talking about. And I'm

2:18

really excited about diving into this one today because I

2:22

feel like this is going to be a really great topic for

2:22

anyone and everyone as creatives and our feelings about our

2:31

businesses and the things that happen in them. But before we

2:31

dive into it last episode, we started with a little

2:39

business, really bestie conversation of we were about to

2:39

head to New Orleans together. Now we're back for this

2:46

episode. We have coming on and I figured we take a moment to

2:46

share just like yeah, just share a little I don't know what

2:56

was your favorite parts? How was being back in New Orleans

2:56

together.

3:01

It was so good. It felt so normal and

3:01

natural. We just picked up right where we left off. I cannot

3:08

believe I think that you told me it had been five years

3:08

since I had been there last which would have been with you.

3:15

Yeah, that was wild.

3:16

Which is crazy.

3:17

But yeah, it was beautiful. It was really

3:17

hot. I've I'm officially a cold weather person now. I much

3:25

prefer 45 and sunny over 80 and humid and sunny.

3:32

Yeah, I am a hot weather person. And it

3:32

still shocked me how toasty and humid it was while we were

3:39

there for sure we had to go buy tank tops or you bought tank

3:39

tops. I bought a hoodie which is just a whole other

3:47

conversation. But it was very toasty in New Orleans and we

3:47

did so much walking so much and like just sort of hitting up

3:57

some of our favorite places. Finding couple new places along

3:57

the way. It was a couple of really great days of just

4:03

hanging out together and in our favorite city.

4:06

Loved it. I got a new earring. I got my

4:06

Tragus pierced which is that little flap of cartilage that

4:12

covers your ear hole whenever I was about 15 years old, so

4:12

25 years ago and I have had the same earring in it for 25

4:23

years. So we hopped into the cutest jewelry store. What was

4:23

it called?

4:29

Porter Lyons. It's one of my very favorites.

4:29

I've been a follower for a very long time if anyone's

4:34

interested check it out for sure.

4:37

They had the most stunning beautiful

4:37

jewelry and then I realized about halfway through that they

4:44

were also a piercing shop and so I found a cute little

4:44

dainty earring that I had put into my Tragus to replace that

4:52

earring that I've had for 25 years. And it was more than

4:52

I've ever spent on an earring before but I figured if I'm

4:58

wearing this one for another 25 years it's basically a cent

4:58

a day so.

5:03

Yeah, that cost per wear is worth it.

5:07

Yes.

5:09

I did not tell you this but I ended up going

5:09

back while bosses were there because Kathleen and I sort of

5:14

front ended a Being Boss retreat with some time with the two

5:14

of us together. And once Kathleen left and I was there with

5:21

my C-suite bosses. We ended up going back to Porter Lyons

5:21

because one of my C-suite bosses is a very big fan of Porter

5:28

Lions so we went there together and I ended up getting one

5:28

of those threader earrings and in the yellow gold and it is

5:36

the coolest thing I have ever owned.

5:40

I can't wait to see it.

5:42

It's super cute. Um, so we did that. We also

5:42

I think, again, maybe had one of the best meals of our

5:48

lives.

5:50

Yeah, we went to a restaurant called

5:50

Lengua Madre. And it was a pre fee kind of tasting menu

6:00

dinner that we decided in advance that we were going to do a

6:00

wine pairing, neither of us are really big drinkers by any

6:07

means anymore. So having a glass of wine with every single

6:07

course that comes out was a big task. I remember I was like,

6:15

you don't have to drink at all, you don't have to drink at

6:15

all, which I didn't. I didn't drink at all. So anyway, but

6:22

it was so enjoyable. The meal was phenomenal. I recommend it

6:22

to anyone, it was definitely spendy. In fact, we were

6:30

gathering all of our expenses and putting it into an app

6:30

called splitwise. And Emily sent that meals tab thinking it

6:38

was for both of us. And I was like, oh, no, no, that was

6:38

each. But it was worth it. Right.

6:44

100%. 100%. I mean we were there for hours,

6:44

absolute hours, eating some amazing foods and food

6:50

combinations that I never I mean, there were crickets on top

6:50

of one of our courses. Things I would have never tried

6:57

before. And it was all so delicious. And the wines were

6:57

fantastic. I had a really great time tasting all of those

7:04

wines. And yeah, it was just it was such a great evening.

7:04

Whenever I do things like that, you know, I think it's

7:11

really easy to do like ROI on food, right? Or like maybe you

7:11

know, ROI, but really thinking like breaking it down. I'm

7:19

having like, I'm spending how much money on how many

7:19

courses, whatever it may be. But whenever you factor in the

7:26

experience, and the time spent and all of those things, not

7:26

a bad investment, not a bad investment by any means, and

7:33

will be one of those things that I absolutely remember

7:33

forever. Also the walk there was very entertaining. Kathleen

7:36

Those anti anxiety meds are working

7:36

wonders because I can lead us straight into danger now

7:40

took us way down, we walked way down, far beyond, you know,

7:40

the central business district and the warehouse district

7:47

like farther than I had ever walked on foot before. And we

7:47

show up in front of this unmarked house on this sort of

7:55

sketch block. And I'm like, Kathleen, you're the one who's

7:55

afraid of being murdered constantly and brought me here.

8:02

Like what the map says that it's here, but I'm not seeing

8:02

anything. So it was just like a really fun time walking down.

8:15

without a problem.

8:17

Yeah, and just like giggle about it along

8:17

the way. We also had a really one of my very favorite, just

8:25

Kathleen memories in general walking to this dinner. Do you

8:25

remember what that was? Because I feel like you have to

8:30

share.

8:31

I don't remember.

8:33

No, as soon as I say it, you're gonna

8:33

remember because I keep thinking about it and just laughing

8:38

out loud at random moments during my day. And that is that a

8:38

woman as Kathleen was passing by flicked a chicken bone at

8:47

her.

8:51

I completely forgot about this. So we're

8:51

walking on the sidewalk.

8:55

Not me.

8:55

Just minding our own business. A woman is

8:55

sitting, you know, like on a ledge eating a box of chicken

9:03

wings. And right as we walked by, she throws a chicken bone

9:03

at me and I dodge out of the way Emily was like, what was

9:10

that? I was like, she just threw a chicken bone at me.

9:15

So what my favorite part about this is I saw

9:15

it coming. I didn't know that that's what was going to

9:21

happen. But we've talked about this here on the show at

9:21

several points before one of my very favorite things is

9:28

watching how people react to Kathleen. It is one of the most

9:28

hysterical things to just be walking through any place with

9:36

Kathleen who is like, tall and has the hair and is stomping

9:36

her feet everywhere she goes. And there's always this very

9:45

polarizing reaction either people are completely enamored by

9:45

her or obviously hate her guts.

9:53

Yeah.

9:53

It is hysterical to me and as we're walking

9:53

up towards this woman, I see her and she hates you.

10:01

Yeah. Hates your guts, your bones and everything in between. And

10:01

so I didn't know what was going to happen but I definitely

10:10

saw the loathing in her eyes as we were walking towards her.

10:10

And then whenever you jump over at me and tell me that she

10:18

threw a chicken bone at you. It just made sense.

10:23

And you know, it was kind of so funny. I

10:23

couldn't even really be mad about it. And I just didn't take

10:28

it personal. Like usually I would be like what.

10:34

You just took it in stride.

10:36

Took it in stride let's just keep walking,

10:36

just keep walking.

10:40

Anyway so I will remember that forever. I've

10:40

I think about it probably daily and giggle. No, I don't even

10:46

giggle, I like guffaws out loud whenever I think about this

10:46

moment because it was really a gem, really a gem. So anyway

10:55

other favorite moments when we other

10:55

favorite moments and then we'll move on to talking about

10:55

my what we're going to talk about today is we got biscuits at

11:01

Willy and Jean this little breakfast spot. Or is it Willa Jeans?

11:10

It's Willa Jean.

11:11

Okay, Willa Jean.

11:12

Just singular.

11:14

Willa. Jean. This is how you know I'm a

11:14

Michigander now is because I'm putting an S at the end of

11:20

everything. That's a Michigan thing. Okay, so we go to Willa

11:20

Jean, we order biscuits, we kind of make friends with the

11:28

woman working behind the bar who's serving us we love

11:28

sitting at a bar. And we ordered some biscuits.

11:35

And this was our second morning. This was

11:35

our second morning in a row there one morning and I think I

11:42

think I had ordered a biscuit on the side or something. And

11:42

I like we eat we end up sharing the biscuit really, this is

11:48

the best biscuit ever. So the next morning, we wake up and

11:48

we're like, can we just go back to Willa Jean for biscuits?

11:54

And please continue?

11:55

Yeah. And so this is something that we

11:55

share in common is that biscuits are probably the food that

12:01

soothes our spirit the most.

12:04

Yeah.

12:04

So we're eating some biscuits. I'm seeing

12:04

Jesus in this biscuit. It was the best biscuit of my life.

12:13

And we finished eating. So this time we each order our own

12:13

biscuit. And then afterwards, I was like, Do you wanna

12:19

another round of biscuits? And so we ordered another round

12:19

of biscuits. I think that the waitress thought that we were

12:24

kidding, we were not kidding. We dominated some more

12:24

biscuits. So that was really fun.

12:31

Yeah, I believe that was one of my favorite

12:31

breakfasts. And it was definitely like, telling the telling

12:37

the waitress that we wanted that second round she, she did,

12:37

she thought we were joking. And then when she realized we

12:43

were serious, it was like high five, of course, you want

12:43

more biscuits. But there was definitely a moment of

12:48

surprise, and literally some of the best biscuits in my

12:48

life. And I haven't told you this, but I went back for those

12:53

biscuits one more time.

12:54

Yes. I'm proud of you.

12:57

Thanks. Thanks. last morning. That's what I

12:57

did as I was heading down as they went and got one more

13:02

biscuit. So anyway, it was such a great time, I had such a

13:02

great time with you, of course. And then we also had such a

13:09

great time with the C-suite. You were able to meet them all

13:09

and hang out for a couple of hours.

13:14

I love them, I love everyone.

13:18

They're great. And one of the things that

13:18

was so amazing about everyone from this trip is that I had

13:24

been to New Orleans with every single one of them at least

13:24

once before, at least once before in some capacity or

13:30

another most of them within the context of C-suite retreats,

13:30

but not all of them. Some of them had been there with in

13:37

other capacities with me. And so it was just such a magical

13:37

experience to be there with everyone again, like it felt

13:43

like a little full circle of like it's been years and years

13:43

of cultivating these experiences with all of these people to

13:50

bring them all together. And for us all to do it together

13:50

again was such a great time. So it felt more like sort of a

13:59

fun girls weekend. With lots of business on top for sure.

13:59

Than any other retreat I'd ever done. It really felt like it

14:08

always feels like coming home whenever I go to New Orleans,

14:08

but this time was like coming home with some of my oldest

14:14

friends.

14:15

One cool thing about the C-suite retreat

14:15

is that you had rented this mansion. And there's so many

14:24

rooms in this place. There's enough room for everyone. And I

14:24

was like yeah, no, we're staying in the same room. I slept

14:29

on this like little day bed next to your king size bed in

14:29

this room. How would you even describe this room? It was it

14:38

was something out of a movie.

14:41

Yes. So I think the house had been built in

14:41

the late 1800s to be a an ice cream parlor and pool hall.

14:51

Right, right, which makes sense for the we were sleeping in

14:51

the pool hall.

14:55

Okay, that makes sense.

14:56

And so it had these like fabric tapestry

14:56

walls that had these like images of lions and like racked

15:04

pool balls. And then on the ceiling was painted naked babies

15:04

doing various forms of physical labor and entertainment. A

15:13

lot of time looking up at these babies and like, and well

15:13

some of them were clothed. We decided that maybe some of

15:21

them had had clothes added later, but some of them were

15:21

still left naked and babies not angels, not cherubs, babies,

15:30

naked babies. Just doing all these things on the ceiling. It

15:30

was one of the most Insane rooms I had ever been in. It

15:39

smelled musty AF too there was a fan in there that I kept

15:39

going the entire time. But it was really cool and definitely

15:48

a piece of history. So imagine like old school dark sort of

15:48

moody pool hall with like some weird art. That was the room

15:57

that we slept in, and I definitely missed you when you were

15:57

gone. I felt like maybe it was a little bit haunted. I

16:04

Yeah see? Yeah.

16:05

needed you.

16:09

Yeah, for sure. Anyway, okay, let's dive

16:09

into the vein today. Sorry, not sorry to everyone. I feel

16:15

like you all need to know these things are very important.

16:15

Also, if you ever get the chance to rent a large mansion

16:22

down on Canal Street in New Orleans, definitely do it and

16:22

sleep in the billiard hall, it was quite a hoot.

16:29

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16:29

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16:39

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16:39

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17:36

Okay, today we're talking though, about taking business

17:36

personally, or really rather how to not take business so

17:46

personally. This was one that you brought up as something

17:46

you wanted to talk about what has led you to this topic

17:54

today Kathleen.

17:55

I have a lot of experience in taking it

17:55

all very personally, all of the things. And I don't know if

18:03

it's age or experience or just a level of maturity, either

18:03

within my own personal self or within my business self

18:11

having been running my own business now for over 10 years.

18:11

I'm just not taking it so personal anymore. And it is so

18:20

liberating. And I finally struck the balance of when to take

18:20

it personal or when to bring my feelings into it for good

18:29

and when to kind of compartmentalize and create boundaries

18:29

around certain things so that I'm not taking it. So

18:35

personal.

18:36

High five. I think making it to this place

18:36

is is quite real. And as we were sort of talking about what

18:43

this would be about, one of the things we settled on was

18:43

this idea that as you are in business for a long time, or as

18:53

you mature, but either as just like a person or as a

18:53

professional, the idea is that you do mature into not taking

19:02

it as seriously as you do when you get started. But I also

19:02

think that there is a special set of circumstances that has

19:10

creatives may be having a harder time with this evolution.

19:10

Because we put so much of who we are into the work that we

19:22

do, whether we are sharing, you know, content or sharing,

19:22

creating and sharing content, or if we're creating art, or

19:30

we're delivering a service that's very, you know, closely

19:30

tied to something that we're passionate about or whatever it

19:36

may be. So I think this is an important conversation because

19:36

I think that we ended up holding on to all of that a little

19:44

longer than most probably do.

19:47

So I'm curious to hear from you, Emily

19:47

having had Indie Shopography, Almanac, Being Boss, the

19:53

tanning salon, have you taken business like what as your

19:53

degrees of taking business personal been like which

20:00

businesses have you taken the most personally and in what

20:00

ways?

20:05

Oh, that's such a good question. I think I

20:05

probably, I think I probably took Indie the most personal.

20:16

So my web design business. And because two things one, that

20:16

was probably the most me being creative for especially a

20:28

single person at a time I've ever had in any of my

20:28

businesses, and I was probably the most like the least

20:39

evolved, how about that. And I will say not quite the same

20:39

as tanning salon. Like it was a teenager owning a brick and

20:46

mortar business, but it was a tanning salon that was already

20:46

there like a whole other situation way back then. Indie was

20:53

the one though that was the most tied to my like, to my

20:53

creativity. And it was the one that, yeah, the one where I

21:03

was probably the least evolved. I will say Being Boss is

21:03

probably the second one. Because there is so much like, the

21:10

business is me talking. Right?

21:12

Yeah.

21:12

But over the years, I've definitely like

21:12

learn to let a lot of that go. And it's so much easier for

21:18

me to think about metrics and things or remove the feelings

21:18

from it at Being Boss. And I will say Almanac is like I

21:25

don't even care. I don't even know, like I am so not even

21:25

I'm so not very personally tied to that business in a way

21:36

that is like next level evolution. So much so that like the

21:36

team that like I don't even know what customer support stuff

21:43

comes through. Like I'm unaware, in a really beautiful way

21:43

because I've even built it so that I never have to think

21:50

about whether I'm taking something personally or not, I just

21:50

am doing business, which is nice. So that's probably my

21:56

scale of things. What about you?

21:59

At the beginning of Braid, I took it very

21:59

personally because I was launching it with my sister. So

22:05

that is a very personal relationship. And whenever it came

22:05

to working with clients, I was also still taking it very

22:13

personally because I didn't have as much experience or

22:13

confidence. And so it was really easy to really wrap myself

22:21

up into the outcomes of projects back then, I will also say

22:21

that I was really wrapping my whole identity around being a

22:30

creative entrepreneur. And that's probably because of the

22:30

content that I was creating, where I was sharing that

22:35

information. And then Being Boss, for sure, I took

22:35

incredibly personal probably, as it relates to my identity

22:43

the most, because that was the most public facing we had

22:43

ever been, it really hit a mainstream audience in a bigger

22:50

way than I had ever experienced. And so with that, I was

22:50

taking my relationship with this like parasocial

22:57

relationship that I was having with our listeners very

22:57

personally. And if I would accidentally hurt someone's

23:03

feelings, it really bothered me. Or if I couldn't solve

23:03

somebody's problem, I felt personally responsible. And so I

23:12

really took on a lot whenever it came to Being Boss. And

23:12

then since leaving Being Boss, and really investing myself

23:19

back into Braid Creative. Again, I don't know if it's an age

23:19

thing or a maturity thing, or maybe just all of the things.

23:27

I'm taking it so much less personal whenever it comes to

23:27

clients and project outcomes. But that doesn't mean I'm

23:33

taking it less seriously. Because maybe in some ways more

23:33

than ever before I take it very seriously, because I'm

23:41

making more money as a business than ever before. We have

23:41

more employees than ever before. So there are some things

23:48

that I take very seriously. But at the end of the day, I

23:48

know that who I am is not just the work that I do. And that

23:58

has been probably the biggest shift of all.

24:01

Yeah, I think there's a really important

24:01

thing there. This difference between taking something

24:06

personally and taking something seriously, because I feel

24:06

like a lot of people don't know the difference. And don't

24:11

know like what the difference feels like. You can accept

24:11

responsibility without taking an outcome personally. And

24:19

that differentiation is something that you have to grow

24:19

into. And it's funny, as you mentioned to about, you know,

24:25

doing projects, and this is how I heard it, I don't know

24:25

exactly the words that you said, but being responsible for

24:31

the outcome of those projects. I remember this is something

24:31

that probably Indie taught me better than anything of you

24:37

know, working with clients and doing these projects and

24:37

never seeing these, like projects come to life. Like you

24:42

build a website, you build a brand for a client and the

24:42

business never takes off. Not your problem. You showed up,

24:47

you did the logo, you built the website, whatever it may be.

24:47

That for me was probably one of the most important practices

24:55

that helped me get out of any sort of processes of taking

24:55

things personally, like I was here to do a job and what

25:04

happened with the product of that job was not my

25:04

responsibility, and I should never take those things

25:09

personally.

25:11

Yeah, I still really need to feel a degree

25:11

of investment in what I'm doing. And especially whenever it

25:17

comes to graphic design, I love being a graphic designer.

25:17

And I need to really love the work that I'm doing and the

25:24

work that I'm creating for it to be good. So there is and it

25:24

almost feels a little bit like magic to me. That feeling

25:33

that I get in my gut whenever I know that something is good

25:33

or whenever I'm on to the right direction. And it really

25:40

does feel like this resonance in my body. And it's really

25:40

hard to explain. But that is a personal experience, right?

25:47

It really is tuned, tuning into my feelings to make sure

25:47

that I'm moving the project in the right direction. But I'm

25:56

just not so enmeshed with it, like, I'm not going to let a

25:56

bad day at work turn into a bad day at home, I say that, you

26:05

know, it's that. So actually, whenever it's really hard not

26:05

to take it personal, like it's hard not to bring your work

26:09

home with you or to be thinking about it. But in general, I,

26:09

I'm just not taking it so personal. And I wonder if that's

26:17

too because I'm not creating as much content as I used to

26:17

be. So I think that there is something to sharing along the

26:24

way that creates another level of relationship or another

26:24

level of consumption. So now it's not just between me and my

26:33

client, or me and my coworkers, it's between me and all of

26:33

the people consuming my work, whether that's on social

26:41

media, on a newsletter or on a podcast, on a blog post. So

26:41

as I've removed myself from being so much of a content

26:49

creator, I'm not as affected because I'm not putting myself

26:49

out there as much to be affected.

26:58

I'm sure that is absolutely a part of it.

26:58

One of the things that one of my experiences, though, as

27:06

someone who's still in it creating and you know, out there a

27:06

whole lot is this broadening of perspective as to where your

27:15

efforts sort of hit in a larger marketplace and like the

27:15

industry where it is that you're showing up. And I think you

27:23

know, whenever you and I started, we will often say that,

27:23

you know, I think we were the first business podcast ever

27:29

hosted by two women. Like that was there not.

27:32

I'm not sure ever but at least in the top

27:32

charts on iTunes, there weren't any other women in the top

27:38

charts on the business podcasts in iTunes at the time we're

27:38

hitting those charts.

27:44

Right. And now, there are so many and thank

27:44

goodness, like, so glad we're all there high five. But you

27:52

know, and whenever we started, you know, and we started when

27:52

Instagram was fresh, when it was a new little baby platform,

27:59

just doing its thing. I remember being one of the first a

27:59

couple 1000 members of Pinterest, right, like I remember, I

28:08

remember these like very early beginnings of what it was

28:08

like to be on the internet creating content. And the market,

28:16

the industries and markets have changed so much over the

28:16

past 10 years, that I cannot bring with me now the same

28:24

metrics by which I measured success back then, because it's

28:24

a completely different ballgame. And so for me, it's been

28:33

both an evolution of myself, but also well and a broadening

28:33

of the marketplace, but also a broadening of my perspective

28:43

of the marketplace that has allowed me to not. To give just

28:43

generally give fewer shits about how something performing.

28:52

Because 10 years ago, if I'm the only one doing it and it's

28:52

not performing well, then I missed a mark. Now if I do

28:58

something that's not performing well, it's because like,

28:58

what's happening in the economy? Who changed the algorithm

29:04

this week? Who else launched something similar or completely

29:04

different from mine IN that week, like the factors that play

29:11

into success from the content creation side of things are

29:11

vastly more numerous than they were a couple of years ago.

29:20

And because of that, I've been able to release a lot of

29:20

cares around how, how I measuring success, and how I feel

29:31

about the things that we create and the you know, the

29:31

metrics that we measure along the way, a really great

29:37

example of this. And I've talked about this lightly here, we did a big Show

29:37

and Tell sort of workshop and the Being Boss Clubhouse last

29:46

week as of recording this, but it's a while ago, once you

29:46

will hear this on our search engine optimization efforts,

29:53

both at Almanac and add to Being Boss. And one of my

29:53

favorite illustrations of this like I can't take it

30:00

personally, is we spent probably six months prior to pulling

30:00

Almanac into it, really trying to like turn some dials on

30:10

search engine optimization at Being Boss, like optimizing

30:10

pages, optimizing blog posts, like really getting in there

30:18

with some really amazing strategy and measuring our results

30:18

along the way. Needle wasn't moving at all. And we were

30:25

like, I mean, we could have taken that personally like we

30:25

just put all of this effort into doing the thing that we

30:30

know is right. That we should be working but it's not

30:30

working. What did we do wrong? Why is it not working all of

30:36

these things? And so we're like okay, fine. If it's not

30:36

gonna work here, let's just go do some things at Almanac and

30:41

see what happens. And things started bumping at Almanac, our

30:41

website traffic has like quadrupled plus over the past year,

30:50

because unlike we're seeing traffic from these pages and

30:50

blog posts that we're optimizing and doing things, and in

30:56

some cases, they're growing like many hundreds percent,

30:56

month over month, year over year. So in that comparison,

31:05

it's like, it's not that the work isn't great. It's that the

31:05

industry is completely different at Being Boss as it is from

31:15

Almanac and so that that for me, too, was a very big lesson.

31:15

And like you can do great work. But if it's not at the right

31:24

time, and in the right place, it's going to have different

31:24

effects and a way in the online business space is just

31:31

getting, I will say worse and worse. I think in a lot of

31:31

ways. In a way that was just a little too easy Back in the

31:38

day, when we got started.

31:40

I have an instance of whenever I take

31:40

things personal or how I used to take things personal that I

31:46

don't anymore. And so you talking about SEO kind of reminded

31:46

me of that, because I used to feel like I needed to feel

31:55

passionate, and who cares about the metrics and the

31:55

analytics, it doesn't matter. It's all about how I feel. And

32:02

I've stripped some of that away like no, not really like

32:02

great, like I can feel good. And I need to feel certain

32:09

feelings to do my best work, and to have like high

32:09

intentions and low attachment. But I also need to be smart

32:17

about metrics and analytics and not wasting my efforts. I

32:17

don't want to be spinning my wheels in something in business

32:25

that's not working whenever I could be hanging out with my

32:25

kid, cooking an awesome meal, going on vacation with the

32:32

girlfriend, like there are so many things that I could be

32:32

doing, rather than spinning my wheels trying to make

32:37

something work that is just not working. So I think in a lot

32:37

of ways, it's just about being honest, and using all of the

32:44

tools available in order to really see what the whole story

32:44

is. So yes, your feelings play into it. But so do the

32:52

analytics and metrics. And that's one way that I've really

32:52

grown in business. But anyway, back to not taking things

32:58

One thing that I used to really take personally, is whenever

32:58

clients would have questions about my process or my

32:59

personal. deliverables, it's like almost I would feel attacked if

33:13

someone was asking me a question, because I felt that I

33:28

hadn't explained it well enough in the first place. Or I

33:28

would feel defensive if I didn't know the answer, because

33:43

I'm supposed to be the expert, and they're paying me money.

33:43

And I don't know. And it would make me feel wrong in

33:58

business, which would make me feel wrong as a person in life

33:58

kind of that perpetual little sister syndrome that I seem to

34:14

have. So now I'm able to see just a little bit more clearly.

34:14

And whenever a client has a question, or they are

34:28

questioning me about my process, or my prices, or my

34:28

deliverable, or they have feedback, it actually has very

34:36

And he was like, I don't understand why my colors aren't

34:36

real colors, like the colors in my brand are not real colors

34:43

little to do with me. It's that they don't understand. They

34:43

have a question. And it's okay for me to just answer the

34:44

like helped me understand. And I could have made that mean,

34:44

oh, I did this wrong, I should have like, should I mix all

34:51

my colors based off of paint swatches, so I just called him

34:51

and explained to him what Pantone colors are, what CMYK

34:58

question without making it mean anything beyond the question

34:58

that they have. So for example, this happened just last

34:58

mixes are, what RGB colors are, what hex colors are, and

34:58

then what paint colors that you can get at the hardware

35:06

store are and how all of those are different and it's kind

35:06

of hard to understand, but they're all used in different

35:13

applications. And if we get really close, we are close

35:13

enough, he will still be on brand, it's all still going to

35:13

week, I had a client call me. I did, I worked on his brand

35:13

platform. And he was wanting to make some paint colors to

35:20

look very cohesive and it will be great and fine. And he was

35:20

like okay, cool. Yeah, I just wasn't really sure. Thanks for

35:28

answering my question. And like I could feel myself getting

35:28

riled up right before I called him I was like, Oh, this guy,

35:29

match the colors in his branding. And so I said, Hey, you're

35:29

just gonna have to get as close as possible with what's

35:35

or like, oh, I should have done it better. I started to

35:35

feel myself getting activated and taking it personal.

35:42

Whenever I just answered the question, it was fine. And even

35:42

if the outcome of that conversation hadn't been so friendly

35:44

available on the paint swatches, you know, at Home Depot or

35:44

whatever. And he was like, uh, can you do it for me? And I

35:50

or good, or you know, if he hadn't felt satisfied by my

35:50

answer, I can also trust that that has very little to do

35:57

with me also, it's that he's scared for whatever reason, or

35:57

he's afraid, or, you know, he's bringing whatever his stuff

36:00

was like, Sure. So I match his brand colors to the closest

36:00

available swatches, and in paint colors that are mixed.

36:04

is into it. And that doesn't also have to be my stuff. Like

36:04

I did my job. And I did the best I could, and I can help him

36:12

solve his problem. If it's actually a problem.

36:16

Good job. Good job. This is something that I

36:16

actually feel like I hear a lot of bosses coming to so if

36:23

anyone needs to rewind that and relisten, you know, whether

36:23

it's the Monday meetups or Clubhouse Conversation, like a

36:29

lot of creatives do have a lot of angst around questions.

36:29

Just in general, like a client comes to you with a question

36:35

needing some clarification unsure about something, it's

36:35

really easy to take those incredibly personally. And if you

36:43

can mindset shift yourself around that you're going to enjoy

36:43

your work and your clients significantly more, for sure

36:50

along the way. Settling yourself into the flow of your business from

36:55

navigating a whole year of ebbs and flows to embracing the

37:01

energy of each and every day, you're bound to have some ups

37:01

and downs along the way. For me, this journey of

37:06

entrepreneurship is made better when my space keeps me

37:06

focused and inspired. As an example, my favorite way to mark

37:13

the beginning and ending of the work day is to light a

37:13

candle when I sit down at my desk, and then blow it out when

37:19

I'm done for the day. It's a little ritual that creates

37:19

boundaries and a vibe that keeps me focused and feeling

37:25

cozy. And the ritual candle that we make at Almanace Supply

37:25

Co is my favorite for this. In fact, my whole shop is filled

37:32

with items that have curated to create the vibe for feeling

37:32

connected and flow and inspired with candles, crystals and

37:40

other goodies to help them create a dreamy workspace bedside

37:40

table or bookshelf. Come gather inspiration and check out my

37:47

favorite in stock items at almanacsupplyco.com/beingboss and

37:47

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37:56

almanacsupplyco.com/beingboss.

38:05

And it's also easy to put yourself in

38:05

their shoes and think of when is the time that you've been

38:10

working with someone and you've had a question. So I have

38:10

questions for Apple all the time. I have questions about my

38:18

Apple watch. I have questions about my laptop, I have

38:18

questions about my iPad, I have questions about all of the

38:25

things. And if every time I called Apple, they got pissed

38:25

off at me because they were like You can Google it or

38:32

because they were like, we've already explained this to you

38:32

in the instruction guide book that came with your watch upon

38:38

setup. If they reacted that way, it would make me feel so

38:38

dumb. And I'd be like, Okay, well, I'm sorry, I'm not an

38:46

expert at this. So I just kind of pretend like I am Apple

38:46

answering their questions. This is kind of part of my job.

38:54

And just because they have questions doesn't mean that I

38:54

didn't explain it well enough, it just means I need to say

39:00

it in another way for them to understand. And that's okay,

39:00

too.

39:05

I also think there's a level here of one of

39:05

the words that I hear you guys using in brand platforms a

39:11

lot. And one that I hear in bosses, often who are service

39:11

providers is this idea of being a guide. Right? And so

39:18

you're guiding people through your process, you're making a

39:18

website, you're delivering an interior design, you are you

39:24

know, doing whatever it is that you're doing. But you have

39:24

to accept that one of the roles of a guide is to answer

39:33

questions along the way. And so accepting that as part of

39:33

your role as opposed to being you know, a little miffed by

39:40

it as it comes along is incredibly important. I also think

39:40

there's some really important sort of shifts to make around

39:48

taking things personally when it comes to pricing. And you

39:48

know, closing a deal or not closing a deal or having someone

39:55

choose someone else over you. That's something over the

39:55

years and I think probably more so at Being Boss than

40:02

anywhere. I've been able to get over in a way that that was

40:02

really hard to do. But one whe it happens often enough, and

40:13

two when I am dealing for me this happens most often when

40:13

I'm negotiating sponsorships for the podcast where I am

40:21

dealing with just one person who is buying the ad space for

40:21

an entire company and in some cases, a billion dollar

40:29

company or whatever it may be. Not getting miffed or not

40:29

taking it personally if they are trying to negotiate lower

40:37

CPMs if they can, or cannot make the deal based on politics

40:37

of some weird office sort, or the economy or like XYZ,

40:49

there's like an infinite number of factors, I've over the

40:49

years been able to do a pretty good job of like, of letting

40:56

a lot of that go, I can still be annoyed, I can still not

40:56

like decisions. But I'm not taking as personally now as I as

41:04

I once did. Because that is just part of the job. And if you

41:04

continue taking things personally that you should not be, it

41:14

becomes impossible to do that job.

41:18

Yeah, I've had to learn how to not take it

41:18

personally whenever it comes to being a manager and being a

41:24

leader within my company. Because I've worked with a lot of

41:24

people who are my peers, and at the same level, we can

41:31

usually be more like vulnerable and honest with each other.

41:31

So for example, Emily, whenever you and I owned Being Boss

41:37

together, we could have professional but also like heated or

41:37

passionate for better or worse discussions around the

41:45

decisions that we're making. Because we're not really having

41:45

to protect each other, we're like, on the same playing

41:51

field, like we are teammates on the same playing field, and

41:51

we don't have to, like, take it easy, or, you know, we can

41:58

just kind of like get down in the trenches together and

41:58

figure things out. And that's how it is with my sister and

42:04

my business partner Holly at Braid, like we can, you know,

42:04

jump in and really figure things out. But whenever it comes

42:11

to our employees, you have to almost be like a parent, you

42:11

know, parenting a kid where you can be firm, you they can

42:22

see your emotions, but you also have to really keep it

42:22

professional, and you can't take it personal whenever they

42:28

haven't done the best job possible. Because you're the business owner, not them, it is your job

42:29

to hold the vision and to guide the company in the best way

42:38

that you know how, which is hopefully with integrity and

42:38

responsibility and accountability, and a little bit of

42:45

authenticity for sure. But you have to be able to remove

42:45

yourself so that you can have hard conversations with your

42:55

employees about what they could be doing better. You have to

42:55

sometimes give up taking credit for a project that you

43:03

guided them through that had amazing end results. But at the

43:03

end of the day, maybe they were the designer on it, and you

43:10

want to give them that credit for it, to give them a boost

43:10

of confidence. Even if you had your hands in the whole

43:17

thing, the whole, you know, the whole time, right. So I

43:17

think that that's incredibly important. And something to

43:23

remember is that sometimes not taking it personal, is how

43:23

you become a really good leader. And that doesn't have to

43:30

just apply for your employees, it could also apply for your

43:30

audience or you know, whenever it comes to the content that

43:36

you're creating, like holding this air of responsibility

43:36

around it.

43:40

Yeah. Okay, I think we've given some really

43:40

good examples of times when we should all let loose little

43:47

bit take things that are less, less personally not less

43:47

seriously, you know, you're not putting down the

43:52

responsibilities by any means. But you're not taking them as

43:52

personally, when are times when we should take things

44:00

personally. Why you making that face?

44:04

I'm just thinking about how to say, I'm

44:04

thinking about how to say it? Well, you know, for me, it's

44:13

really tricky. Because I work with my sister, I just hired

44:13

my niece, as one of my designers, I am my best friend's

44:20

boss, like it is going to be personal. And I have found that

44:20

the work that we do together actually tightens our bonds. So

44:29

us working together professionally, has only personally

44:29

helped our relationships, you know, and so, for example,

44:38

Emily, we work together in a professional setting, and now

44:38

personally, we are in each other's lives till we die, you

44:46

know what I mean? So that's whenever business can become

44:46

personal in a really in a really great way. Um, you know,

44:53

but I used to, you know that one of my values is

44:53

authenticity. And I think that whenever it comes to

44:58

business, you should bring your values into your business.

44:58

So, whenever it comes to your values, you should absolutely

45:07

be taking it personal because you are a human who is

45:07

interacting with other humans. So if you want to say no to a

45:12

job because it contradicts your personal values, say no to

45:12

that job, that is okay. But you know, one of my values is

45:21

authenticity. And I used to think that if I'm going to bring

45:21

my values into my work, that being authentic meant saying

45:28

what I felt all the time, and that's not necessarily the

45:28

case. I can still bring who I am personally into my work

45:38

with the level of professionalism on top right. So I think

45:38

that that's just a huge part of it. And also taking a

45:47

personal again, whenever I'm designing, and I can feel it in

45:47

my bones, and I love what I'm doing, I guess, it's really

45:53

easy to take things personal whenever things feel really

45:53

good. But again, you have to have some sort of boundary

46:00

around that. Because if you're going to take it personal, whenever you've

46:01

done a good job, you're also going to have to take it

46:05

personal whenever you've done a bad job. So there is this

46:05

certain amount of boundary that you have to hold around all

46:12

of it good and bad. I guess I'm talking again about how not

46:12

to take it personally, whenever you ask, how do we take it

46:18

personally or like when when should we take it personal. And

46:18

maybe that's because there's actually a very thin line

46:26

between, you know, maybe these are just kind of two sides of

46:26

the same coin, and that you can't figure out how to keep

46:32

create boundaries and policies and systems so that you're

46:32

not completely enmeshed with your work. But also, you have

46:40

to take it personal because this is your livelihood, and

46:40

it's your creativity. And we spend so much time at work,

46:46

that if we're not enjoying it, if we're not feeling like

46:46

we're doing a good job, if it's not adding to our lives,

46:53

then what are we doing? So that's probably where I would

46:53

take it personal. What do you think Emily?

46:57

I think you hit on a couple of mines for

46:57

sure. Mines? Did I just become a Michiganian too?

47:06

I love it.

47:10

One is this evolved relationship piece, I

47:10

think there is a like level of distance you have to keep

47:16

with employees, vendors, etc, etc, for sure. However,

47:16

sometimes, those lines get blurred as well, you work with

47:26

your sister, I work with my partner, I've definitely like

47:26

become really great friends with people that I've worked

47:32

with, you are a great example of that. And so I think in

47:32

those moments, or when relationships evolve past, just being

47:43

in a professional manner, you have to start taking things a

47:43

little more personally, if feedback comes to you from those

47:51

people, and especially if it is of a personal nature, then

47:51

that is meant to be taken personally, not just

47:58

professionally, because you allowed in some capacity or

47:58

another, that relationship to evolve beyond that point. And

48:05

I mean, it's a little bit muddy, that line is not clear as

48:05

to when is a relationship but just professional and

48:10

personal. But those, those relationships are times when you

48:10

need to, you need to take feedback and performance and all

48:17

of those things a little more personally than not. And there

48:17

can still be I think lines in those situations. I think, you

48:24

know, whenever I'm at work with the people that I also live

48:24

my life with, we are at work, like I am pretty good about

48:32

holding a line in those spaces. But not everyone is. And

48:32

that's a whole other conversation. So evolved relationships

48:39

is one, I love that you brought up values, because I think

48:39

that is a time when more or less, you should take things

48:49

personally. And I think this is sort of twofold. One is when

48:49

you are making decisions from a place of your personal

48:56

values, for sure, like bring your values and the decisions

48:56

that you're making, so that you continue to feel good about

49:02

it even if it is in the context of your business. But I also

49:02

think there's a little bit hear of like, if you are the

49:08

person naming the values for your business and your business

49:08

is no longer upholding its values, you should probably take

49:18

that personally and go fix it. Take literal personal

49:18

accountability for making sure that things get realigned.

49:27

Yeah, I think that we've seen this really

49:27

go downhill in corporate capitalism, where corporations, you

49:35

know, like the the leaders of corporations will say, Oh,

49:35

well, this has nothing to do with me. This is about the

49:41

corporation kind of as its own person who just needs to make

49:41

profit.

49:45

And ya know, if you're the brain, it is, it

49:45

is and it feels icky because it's out of alignment.

49:54

And there are corporations who are showing

49:54

us the opposite. So like was it Patagonia for example, that

49:59

has really good value is and they're bringing it to what

49:59

they offer and how they're doing business. And so it is

50:07

possible and it's possible for us on a more, you know,

50:07

smaller level to be able to bring our values into our

50:14

business.

50:16

I mean, that's just like next level

50:16

practicing integrity, right? If you are creating or

50:20

otherwise running a corporation, then you should be more or

50:20

less adopting those values for yourself in some capacity and

50:26

at appropriate moments. Another one for me, when you should

50:26

take things personally, is when you are at fault. And maybe

50:36

not necessarily take this one home and cry in your pillow

50:36

all night, like taking it into your life. But you should

50:42

absolutely take accountability. And like, instill that

50:42

within yourself. If you have done something wrong, if you

50:52

have not delivered on something. If you did not deliver your

50:52

best work, and it was expected of you, if you are not

50:57

upholding those values in some capacity or another, if

50:57

someone, if someone on your team, or a customer, or a vendor

51:04

is bringing feedback to you, that is like these are what the

51:04

expectations were and you did not pull through, then take

51:12

that if it's true, right. And this is not about taking, like

51:12

non constructive criticism or those sorts of things is when

51:20

you have done something wrong. Take that personally, and fix

51:20

it for yourself and the continuation of your company moving

51:31

forward, you're gonna learn some very important lessons

51:31

along the way, but only if you accept accountability.

51:37

I agree, I feel like I've been just trying

51:37

so hard not to take things personally that I'm now having a

51:43

hard time thinking of when to take things personally, I also

51:43

find that it's personal whenever you can feel the person

51:50

that you're working with, you know, and so sometimes I can

51:50

just feel what my employee is radiating, or my business

52:00

partners. And sometimes I will take that personal and not

52:00

necessarily in a way that means that I need to fix it or

52:09

that I'm wrong. But if you can tell that someone's having a

52:09

bad day, help them out. Or if you can tell that someone's

52:16

really excited about something on a personal level, talk to

52:16

them about it. So I think that that's where it is just being

52:22

able to kind of read the room, whenever it comes to taking

52:22

things personally and that can work to your advantage.

52:29

Yeah, maybe you just gave the answer. But

52:29

maybe you have another one for if you were to give someone

52:35

or our listeners advice, and how to take their creative

52:35

business a little less personally, what would it be?

52:42

Yeah, I think that just the mantra high

52:42

intent, low attachment is something that you should have on

52:49

repeat. So at the beginning of your business, if you were

52:49

younger in your business, or you've just started something,

52:55

you're probably going to need to take it very personally,

52:55

you're probably putting way more of yourself into this thing

53:02

into launching it and getting it off the ground than you

53:02

ever have before. And you what you really have to learn is

53:10

how to get that personal passion and momentum behind your

53:10

project, but then how to let it go, you know, so at the

53:18

beginning of it, you're kind of like pushing this boulder up

53:18

the hill. And that's one of your taking things really

53:23

personal. But at some point, you get to let the boulder go

53:23

down the other side of the hill, and you just get to let it

53:29

roll. Right. And that's whenever you have to learn how to

53:29

stop pushing, and to let go to surrender and to figure out

53:39

who else you are beyond just your business and I hit that

53:39

will help you take things a lot less personal. So the way

53:46

that you started is not the way that it always has to be.

53:51

Lovely. I have a mantra as well. We'll call

53:51

it because I love that you called it that and mine is fuck

53:57

feelings, do math. And I say this all the time and binging

53:57

especially like all the calls that we do in the Being Boss,

54:07

clubhouse and community, someone always comes in and they're

54:07

like, I feel disappointed in this thing that I did, or I

54:13

feel like or I feel like I did something wrong. Or I feel

54:13

really excited about how this thing went whatever it may be.

54:20

And I'm like, but fuck your feelings. Do math. Like how did

54:20

it actually do? I feel like as creatives we are very feely

54:29

and I love that for us, I think that makes us really

54:29

compassionate and empathetic business owners I think that

54:37

makes us amazing artists and all of those things. But

54:37

feelings can go too far. We can take things way too

54:45

personally because we're just resorting to feelings when it

54:45

comes to the performance of something whether it's yourself

54:51

or that blog post or the Instagram or whatever it may be.

54:51

But whenever you can work more metrics into your business

54:59

and making sure you're actually seeing how that newsletter

54:59

campaign performed as opposed to just how you feel it went.

55:06

It's easier to one get out of your feelings and really know

55:06

what you should think and believe about the effectiveness of

55:13

whatever it is that you just did. And two it creates a habit

55:13

of resorting the numbers before you develop feelings. It

55:23

literally helps you take business less personally as you go

55:23

and I think that if you can start you know creating that

55:31

disconnect for yourself between how it is that you are how

55:31

it is you think something went how it is you feel it went

55:38

and replace that with how things actually went by numbers by

55:38

the math of it. The more fun you can have in your business,

55:48

the more you can disconnect yourself, your self worth from

55:48

the effectiveness of what it or like perceived effectiveness

55:58

of what it is that you have just accomplished. And you can

55:58

just do business and make art in their compartments.

56:09

You said it.

56:10

Of course I did. I dropped an F bomb on live

56:10

television. Not really not sorry about it either. I do

56:18

that's like fuck feelings y'all. You can have your feelings.

56:18

Run your numbers. You'll be much happier for it. Perfect.

56:28

Then, Kathleen, it's been two whole weeks since I asked you

56:28

this question what's making you feel most boss?

56:33

I have figured out a new way to do my

56:33

liquid eyeliner. And I have been doing like a little wing

56:39

for a really long time. But I just changed it up ever so

56:39

slightly, just the angle of it. And honestly, it's making me

56:48

feel really boss.

56:50

Love that.

56:51

How about you What's making you feel boss?

56:54

Oh, I feel like I have like some big ones.

56:54

But I think the one that I want to go with is that I have

57:01

scheduled myself an Emily date for later this week. I'm very

57:01

excited about it. And it comes from I've been traveling so

57:10

much over the past couple of weeks. That one of the things

57:10

that I realized that I have really missed from you know,

57:17

living in a house with my family 24/7 for years now is doing

57:17

things by myself. So as I've been traveling, I've been like

57:28

going out to eat by myself and I was in Vegas and did all

57:28

the I went to a comedy show by myself. I did all these

57:34

things by myself and I had the best time. I am great

57:34

company. And so as I got home, I was looking at my calendar

57:44

and thinking oh, I really want to go have lunch at this one

57:44

place here this week. And maybe I should find someone and I

57:50

was like, You know what, though, like, screw other people's

57:50

schedules or expectations or wanting to like rain on my

57:57

parade because of whatever I was like, I'm am just actually

57:57

going to do it by myself. And I'm so excited about so I'm

58:04

taking myself out to lunch in a couple of days. Just for

58:04

fun. And that makes me feel boss.

58:10

Fun.

58:12

Kathleen's like, that sounds like a

58:12

nightmare.

58:15

Great. I'm into it. I went to the movie

58:15

theater by myself once whenever I was probably 18 or 19

58:23

years old. And I felt so boss afterward. And I've always

58:23

thought I should do that again. And I never have and it's 20

58:32

years later, I've still yet to do it again. But maybe I

58:32

should do that.

58:37

I don't think I've ever done the movies by

58:37

myself. I love to go out to eat by myself. I love to travel

58:42

by myself. So much like I had the most fun in Vegas. And I

58:42

did some things with people. Like I was at a conference and

58:50

I had you know my dinners and my coffee dates and all of

58:50

those things. But in between I was getting up in the morning

58:55

and going out for just like my day by myself or like all the

58:55

things and every time I do it every time I've ever done it,

59:01

I can actually very specifically remember a time I was in

59:01

Paris by myself. Having a shopping day by myself walking

59:08

down the street with all these bags in my hands. Thinking to

59:08

myself, this is the best day of my life and not not because

59:14

I'm surrounded by all the people I love and I love them. And

59:14

I always wish they were there and all the things. But I am

59:20

an introvert through and through. I just want to be by

59:20

myself. And I've, I've always been good at. Well, I've

59:29

always been good at practicing it because I've always

59:29

traveled so much until obviously the past couple of years

59:36

and I've missed out on it. So I have some catching up to do.

59:36

So I'm gonna do it and I'm excited.

59:39

What comedy show did you see I got your

59:39

text, but it was so early. I didn't want to reply whenever I

59:46

finally got it. But one of the only comedy shows I've ever

59:46

been to was with you. We went and saw Fortune Feimster in

59:54

Chicago, and it was so much fun. I would love to go to more

59:54

comedy shows. It's something that I don't do nearly enough.

1:00:02

And we laughed so hard. I mean, we're already laughing

1:00:02

together all the time. Put a comedy show on top of it.

1:00:09

Yeah. Oh, God really good times out. Except

1:00:09

you can't kick out people for laughing too loud at a comedy

1:00:15

show like you can at dinner which has been threatened

1:00:15

before. So we actually have seen two comedy shows together.

1:00:22

Oh.

1:00:22

We went to one in Toronto.

1:00:25

That's right with.

1:00:27

I don't remember who it was.

1:00:29

Um, he writes for Dave Chappelle, he wrote

1:00:29

for the Dave Chappelle Show.

1:00:35

That is right. So whenever I was in Vegas,

1:00:35

though I was looking up I had I had a red eye. So I had to

1:00:42

like spend a whole evening just like out of the hotel,

1:00:42

finding something to do. And so I went to Ticketmaster, I

1:00:49

was scrolling through and I could have gone to see Usher and

1:00:49

all kinds of folks. And I ended up finding a comedy show

1:00:56

though, for I don't know how to say her last name, but Iliza

1:00:56

Shlesinger.

1:01:01

Oh, yeah, yeah.

1:01:04

Yeah, yeah. So it was so good. It was such a

1:01:04

nice time. And so I spent the entire day walking all the way

1:01:12

down the Vegas Strip, which I know is like hell for some

1:01:12

people but like show me pretty lights. I'm here all day. And

1:01:19

then walk from one end of the strip all the way down to the

1:01:19

end where I stopped and saw a show with her and it was

1:01:26

hysterical. I absolutely loved it. I laughed out loud all by

1:01:26

my lonesome and then I went and caught my red eye. And it

1:01:34

was a nice little evening. So she is really great. Live if

1:01:34

anyone ever gets the chance to see her. I do love a good

1:01:41

comedy show. And I have seen a couple of my faves with you.

1:01:45

We had seen Neal Brennan. That's who we

1:01:45

saw together, which was great.

1:01:49

Oh, yeah.

1:01:50

It was really good.

1:01:51

That was a good one. So I do love a comedy

1:01:51

show. Okay, we've done enough chatting. See you later.

1:01:57

Bye, Emily.

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