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1:09

the sound of Bondi Beach on

1:12

a sunny Friday afternoon. You

1:14

can hear the chatter of tourists, the distant

1:16

sound of beach volleyball, the dozens

1:19

of people jogging along the promenade and

1:21

the very serious conversation among

1:23

surfers about where the best

1:25

break in the swell can be found. This

1:31

is the kind of Australia that British

1:33

politicians fantasise about when they dream up

1:35

policies which are, as they like to

1:37

say, Australian style. This

1:40

is the Australia of home and away. Of

1:42

neighbours. Of Kylie

1:45

Minogue. As

1:47

I recorded this, my brother was waiting, patiently

1:50

in the car, trying to fend off

1:52

the various people vying for his parking

1:55

spot. Bondi Beach parking,

1:57

by the way, is a politics

2:00

unto itself. It

2:03

takes a sharp eye to spot

2:05

the departing surface and

2:07

a truly Australian stubbornness

2:10

to wait immovably at the

2:12

front of a queue of impatient

2:14

motorists. You have to do what

2:16

you have to do to secure a spot. But

2:19

even the brutality of Australian

2:21

beach parking can't compete with

2:24

the sheer ruthlessness

2:26

of Australian politics. You

2:29

can keep your Brexit battles

2:31

and your Trump-inspired insurrections, your

2:34

smooth Canadian liberals and your French

2:36

revolutions. There is nothing,

2:39

nothing quite like Aussie

2:41

politics for endless jaw-dropping

2:44

moments. Mr

2:56

Depp has to either take his

2:58

dog back to Caliport or we're

3:01

going to have to euthanate it. What do you think

3:03

this is about? It's about it. So short. I

3:07

hate spending

3:10

any time because every three months a

3:13

person's taught me to buy a crocodile

3:15

and a not a queen. How do

3:17

you get bee semen into the country?

3:20

The bee semen gets sent in

3:22

in little hiles. Financial commits of

3:24

the Commonwealth government. In

3:39

an earlier episode of this podcast, Jack

3:41

talked about how he fell in love

3:43

with Australian politics in the late

3:45

2010s, purely through timing when

3:48

he was awake in the middle

3:50

of the night writing Politico's London

3:52

playbook newsletter, Westminster, and the rest

3:55

of his political Twitter feed would

3:57

all be asleep. politics

4:00

was just waking up

4:03

and he'd watch the daily madness

4:05

from Canberra play out on his

4:08

Twitter feed night after

4:10

night after night. The

4:12

lady of the opposition will remove

4:14

himself from the chamber under 94A.

4:18

On the other side of the world at about the

4:20

same time I was working as a journalist too. Young

4:23

and often lumped at the night shift I

4:25

would switch on Prime Minister's questions in the

4:27

UK to keep me entertained. This was,

4:29

you could say, one of many cultural

4:32

exchanges. There seems

4:34

to be a kind of tradition on this podcast

4:36

of making your first episode about a

4:38

particular character trait from your own career. For

4:41

Jack it was playbook and

4:43

political newsletters. For Alva

4:45

it was the lobby. For

4:47

Aggie it was the secrets of

4:50

TV news. And for

4:52

me, well for me it's Australia.

4:55

Because try as I might, you

4:57

lot in Westminster will not let

5:00

me forget it. Just

5:02

listen to you all. It's Australian style

5:04

this and Australian style that.

5:06

It's Australian trade deals and

5:09

Australian defense deals. It's Aussie

5:11

advisors and Aussie election gurus.

5:14

I've just come back from Australia. He

5:16

was a great friend of Australia. To

5:19

Australia next. With arrangements that are more

5:21

like Australia. Australian style points is Australia

5:23

and the UK coming closer together than

5:25

ever before. So for

5:28

my first solo episode of

5:30

Westminster Insider I decided to

5:32

find out. Are you all so obsessed

5:34

with me? Sorry. I

5:36

mean Canberra. It goes to that room now it's in Australia

5:38

as a place of land and honey. Which

5:40

in every respects it is.

5:42

Australians at the top of

5:44

their game very powerful weapons

5:46

when filtered into the Westminster

5:49

remains intrigued,

5:52

awed and slightly terrified of

5:55

Australia's political culture. had

6:00

a very pleasant meeting with the Prime

6:02

Minister. It's just a natural

6:04

thing to do. From Politico, I'm

6:06

Sasha O'Sullivan. And this week on

6:08

Westminster Insider, we'll ask just how

6:10

much we in British politics really

6:12

borrow from our cousins in Canberra. And

6:15

if maybe, just maybe, we

6:17

accidentally imported some of their

6:19

political turmoil too. October

6:30

2021. It

6:33

was the first Conservative Party conference after

6:35

the pandemic. Across the country,

6:37

people were still nervously shuffling around with

6:40

negative tests and face masks in their

6:42

pockets. But at

6:44

the Midland Hotel in Manchester, hundreds

6:46

of Politico's attending Tory conference were

6:48

crammed in. A 10

6:51

minute walk down the road from the

6:53

conference hotel is cruise

6:55

101, one of the city's

6:58

busiest gay clumps. There,

7:01

it was an even tighter fit. Liz

7:04

Truss, then Foreign Secretary, and George Brandis,

7:07

then Australian High Commissioner to the UK,

7:10

and a loyal band of staffers were

7:12

singing their hearts out to the human

7:14

league. Truly, this

7:16

was the site of British-Australian destinations.

7:19

Boris Johnson, of course, was still Prime

7:21

Minister. And Boris Johnson had promised

7:23

an Australian-style Brexit deal, an

7:26

Australian-style immigration system, and

7:28

an Australian trade deal. He

7:30

had even appointed a very

7:32

Australian campaign coordinator, Isaac Bobito.

7:35

Boris, we know, loves the

7:38

country. Ladies and gentlemen,

7:40

please welcome the right Honourable Boris

7:42

Johnson Bojo. Well,

7:45

thank you very much, scummo. But

7:49

this love story is one with

7:51

much older roots and one that certainly

7:53

seems like it has all the makings

7:55

of a happily ever after. Okay,

8:00

quick history lesson. The year is

8:03

1901. Australia federates.

8:05

Pretty young for a country, right?

8:08

Six separate self-governing colonies

8:10

agreed to unite and have one

8:12

federal parliament based in Canberra. Around

8:16

the same time. Well, okay,

8:18

fine. 30 years before.

8:20

The country had just gone

8:23

crazy. They were in the

8:25

middle of a series of gold rushes. But

8:28

the promise of gold came hundreds of

8:30

thousands of people. Some of

8:32

them even on small boats. Most

8:34

of them came from Britain or elsewhere in

8:36

Europe. A country once

8:39

famed for ex-prisoners roaming free

8:41

became known instead as a

8:43

land of opportunity. And

8:47

while the relationship between Britain and

8:50

Australia still had that sometimes tense

8:52

feel of former colonies, during the

8:54

World Wars, Britain needed us.

8:57

They needed our troops. And

8:59

Winston Churchill, that famous Prime

9:01

Minister, also found a certain

9:04

Antipodian confidant. His

9:06

name was Bob Minses. He

9:08

was Australia's longest serving Prime Minister from 1949

9:11

to 1966.

9:15

And man, was he a fan of

9:17

Britain. He was from that world that

9:19

considered themselves British. And he spent a

9:21

lot of time in London during the Second World

9:23

War. He and his wife were good friends with

9:26

the Turchills. Even in retirement,

9:28

they made him Lord Warden

9:30

of the Sinkports, which was sort of ceremonial.

9:33

This is Rowan Watt, former senior political

9:35

adviser in Liz Truss's number 10 and

9:38

a Queensland native. You look

9:40

at other sort of former colonies of the UK.

9:42

We didn't have the missing divorce that

9:44

the UK had with America. You

9:47

look at the civil society structures, which set

9:49

up Australia and the UK. They're extremely similar

9:51

versus places like Canada and elsewhere. So there's

9:53

a sort of special relationship that Australia and

9:56

the UK have. We

9:58

have been through a lot together. and

10:00

we have a lot of common values. Because

10:03

we went through a lot in World Wars and

10:06

the sacrifices of the

10:08

Australian troops in World War I and

10:11

in World War II, where we joined the conflict

10:14

immediately, Britain did. And this,

10:17

this is John Howard, the

10:19

second longest-serving Australian prime minister

10:21

of all time. And

10:24

kind of the godfather of many of the

10:26

policies the country is now famous for. Well,

10:29

that's very flattering of you to say, so

10:31

there are a lot of linkages between Australia

10:34

and Britain and particularly

10:37

between the Conservative

10:39

Party in Britain and the Liberal Party

10:41

of Australia. Crucially,

10:44

those links between the Tories here

10:46

in Britain and their Liberal Party

10:48

equivalent in Australia extends to

10:50

the sharing of top personnel.

10:54

Most well-known among them is Linton Crosby.

10:56

Howard's famously effective campaign chief,

10:59

who in the early 2000s

11:01

traded in Liberal Party politics

11:04

to become the UK Tories

11:06

election guru. The

11:08

so-called Wizard of Oz was so successful

11:10

in Britain he received a knighthood from

11:12

David Cameron in 2015. Crosby

11:16

was followed by his protege Isaac

11:18

Levito and plenty more

11:20

behind the scenes. But

11:22

why? Well, part of it,

11:25

and this is the episode of

11:27

the first Australianism, is

11:29

our no-bullshit attitude. Australia

11:32

is a very Celtic country.

11:35

We have very strong influences of

11:38

the Irish and Scottish. And

11:41

I think that's given us a

11:43

very healthy dose of scepticism. We're

11:46

a little sceptical of people who try and

11:48

spin us a yarn. I

11:51

can adopt an Australian expression with

11:53

which I'm sure you are very familiar. Over

11:56

the years, Howard has had numerous

11:58

serving Prime Ministers and policy. politicians

12:00

on the other side of the Pacific calling him

12:02

up and asking for advice. And

12:05

now, well, he has me quizzing him

12:07

on Zoom. There was a long

12:09

period of time when the Liberal

12:12

Party in Australia particularly remends he was

12:14

Prime Minister. He just kept winning

12:16

elections and people thought

12:18

we must have something special. I

12:21

had a lot to do with my name's

12:23

sake Michael Howard. When

12:25

he was my

12:27

cousin as I facetiously call him, when

12:30

he was the leader of the

12:32

British Conservative Party and then later on

12:36

with David Cameron when he became the

12:38

leader. We have a lot in

12:40

common when I was last in Britain. I

12:42

caught up with a lot of people in the Conservative

12:44

Party. I had a very pleasant

12:46

meeting with the Prime Minister. For

12:49

many years these close ties had

12:51

made for strong historic trading links

12:53

between the two nations. As

12:56

the 20th century rolled on something

12:58

happened. A rupture. Britain

13:01

suddenly had interests closer to home.

13:04

Australia was the last trading partner

13:06

for the UK the latter half

13:08

of the 19th century and much of the 20th century. Rowan

13:11

Watt again. I think most of

13:13

Britain's wool and wheat came from

13:16

Australia until the 1970s. And

13:18

what was fascinating was that well in the

13:20

70s when Britain joined the EEC Australia's

13:23

agricultural exports were basically in

13:26

trouble. It decimated the agricultural

13:28

industry in Australia. Certainly

13:31

the unified market is

13:33

a matter of enormous significance. But

13:36

it is only the first step which

13:39

will carry us well beyond the

13:41

questions of tariffs and trade. If

13:44

you don't remember those dulcet tones, that's

13:46

Edward Heath in 1973 announcing

13:49

Britain's entry into the European

13:52

economic community. I

13:54

think Australia's economic success comes a

13:57

lot from A content basis. Law

14:00

success comes from Britain. Bruce Lee

14:02

Tony is Michael Australia enjoying the

14:04

to market which was a culture

14:06

shock. This is John Mccain and

14:09

former Press Secretary to Tony Blair

14:11

and Downing Street and later Director

14:13

of Cons for stealing Pm to

14:15

a Gilad when she was in

14:17

office and camera. He like row

14:19

and was is one of a

14:21

growing line of political advisors who

14:23

have worked and thrived in both

14:26

a surreal yeah and the Uk.

14:28

He was a i thought for sure

14:30

either foods are So it is therefore

14:32

because those for the tournament's and that

14:35

caused Australia's to change The richards who

14:37

tells you change the way that though

14:39

it was in the world. In

14:42

Nineteen seventy three, Britain made.

14:44

A choice. They had a

14:46

new club say we're Apostles and a surreal

14:48

a out with on the out. I.

14:51

Think it's. Really?

14:53

Important to look at the role of

14:55

geography he had. This. Is a

14:57

see a guest on. She's had a Foreign

14:59

Policy at Policy Exchange and London and a

15:02

fellow at the National Security College and Camera.

15:04

On. The one hand, we

15:07

are very much a

15:09

Euroatlantic power, and we

15:11

are obviously then compelled

15:13

by the forces of

15:15

geography which encourage us

15:17

to develop. Really important

15:19

trading partnerships and other types

15:21

of relationships with our neighbors,

15:23

and a surly or has

15:26

become a lot more invested

15:28

in it's region and that

15:30

was partly out of necessity.

15:32

Trade. Might have gone down, but Australian

15:34

culture in Britain was on. The Ascent.

15:36

I mean, I think there's more people

15:38

in Britain who watched Davis then that

15:40

in Australia, for example. Fairly

15:44

is in their twenties or what will come over.

15:47

I work in one of her he is noi

15:49

latest as they feel at home and eat out

15:51

so they can do some problems. we are I'm

15:53

here to the earth. The type

15:55

as a stray land that was calm during

15:57

that era was you act like. It's Hot.

16:00

They were living in Elscourt, there were different parts of

16:02

the pub, and there was a very

16:04

big bar down in Temple called Walkabout.

16:06

This is Lassie Kabak, an Australian journalist

16:08

based in London. She writes a

16:10

kind of online foreign policy

16:12

bible on UK-Australia relations. The

16:15

current crop of politicians who are at

16:17

the top were brought

16:19

up on those soap operas, and I

16:22

think there's a lot of affection and

16:24

nostalgia for Australian culture. One

16:27

of those young Brits consuming Australian

16:29

soaps every night is now the

16:31

Shadow Education Secretary. Oh,

16:34

I was a big fan of Neighbours and Home and Away. I

16:36

watched both back to back. If you

16:38

haven't already clocked it, this fan is

16:41

Bridgette Phillipsson. We were

16:43

a family that enjoyed watching Filt-Faced

16:45

Ocean with my grandparents after school.

16:47

When I was very little, of

16:49

course, everybody loved Kylie. And

16:53

all the music output around that time as well.

16:56

These strong cultural ties were

16:58

maintained as the 20th century

17:00

dawned. Think about Britain and

17:02

Australia in the year 2000. Spice

17:05

Girls were just sort of peaked in terms

17:07

of the height of coolness. Australia

17:09

was particularly the Olympics. Both countries were doing

17:11

extremely well economically. There's just never been

17:13

a better time to be Australian or British.

17:16

But diplomatic ties are still fraught, to say

17:18

the least. Things had slumped

17:21

from a high point of Bob Menzies,

17:23

who spoke proudly of being

17:25

British to his bootstraps. Swimming

17:28

around London with the Churchill's to, well,

17:31

nothing. Basically nothing.

17:36

It was the Tony Blair government that actually

17:38

not been a visit from a UK Foreign

17:40

Secretary to Australia for more than a decade.

17:42

Journalist Latika Burke. Now nobody would think of

17:44

that not happening. We would have talks every

17:46

year at least. And we would

17:48

hope to see an Australian minister here every

17:51

few months at least. You can't

17:53

ever forget that if you take these relationships

17:55

for granted, they can be

17:57

easily, easily forgotten in a busy world.

18:00

I was the only Australian Prime Minister

18:02

that Tony Blair dealt with. John

18:04

Howard again. We got on very

18:07

well. We were nominally of

18:09

different politics, but he

18:11

wasn't as rabid a labour

18:13

man as a lot of others were.

18:16

The relationship has matured in the last

18:18

20 years. You don't have the same

18:21

chip on the shoulder feeling that some Australians

18:23

used to have, and you

18:25

don't have this sort of patronising, the

18:28

colonial attitude that some

18:30

British people have which

18:32

is entirely unmeritorious and

18:34

not very popular. Eventually,

18:36

as all politicians must,

18:38

Howard succumbed to the whims of

18:41

the Australian people. I lost the election

18:43

and was booted out of politics. An

18:46

in-swept period in Australian politics

18:48

of turmoil, of backstabbing,

18:51

of what are known down under

18:54

as leadership spells. And

18:58

trust me, our leadership

19:00

spells make the UK Tory party

19:02

look like a mess. I

19:08

ask my colleagues to make a leadership change.

19:11

Look, it's not fun to go through your

19:13

own decapitation. A little while ago,

19:15

I met with the Prime Minister and

19:18

advised him that I would be challenging

19:20

him for the leadership of the Liberal

19:22

Party. Surely there's a hole

19:25

that needs to be fuelled by

19:27

applause and approval. I

19:29

haven't seen Julia's university qualifications

19:31

as a silico-analyst. Just, so

19:35

destructive and so appalled

19:38

by the conduct of the last

19:40

week. Okay, let me see

19:42

if even I can get this right. After

19:45

John Howard came Kevin Rudd, and then Kevin

19:47

Rudd was stabbed in the back by his own

19:50

friend, who brought in Julia Gillard to replace him. But

19:53

then she started flagging in the polls, they

19:55

got rid of Gillard and brought Kevin

19:57

Rudd fishing. But then he lost the

20:00

election. To Tony Abbott become a Prime

20:02

Minister. Except then tears parties

20:04

decide they wanted someone else. To

20:07

deterrve Abbott out and bring Malcolm Turnbull

20:09

in. And then trample

20:11

himself with a victim of

20:13

yet another back-serving plot. And

20:16

he gets thrown out as well.

20:19

And then, sorry, I'm still not

20:21

done, came Scott Morrison,

20:23

who won what was thought to

20:26

be an unwinnable election in 2019. In

20:30

a period of 11 years,

20:32

there were six Prime Ministers.

20:35

Unlockers from across the world in

20:37

Westminster were, to say the least,

20:40

removed. Their time would come,

20:42

but of course they didn't know that then.

20:45

It was a really ugly,

20:48

frenetic, crazy time in

20:50

Australian politics. And Australian politics is

20:52

still paying the price for that a

20:55

decade on. The lesson of the

20:57

deal I'd run to is the one that

20:59

Isaac Levito told the Tory party that they said they

21:01

were too fit to look for the wider parties that

21:03

is electric. And

21:15

while Australian politics was figuring

21:17

its differences out, Britain

21:19

was squeezing a spot that had been

21:21

there for decades. The big

21:24

message is we have triggered

21:26

Article 50, we

21:28

have passed the point of no return, we

21:30

are leaving the European Union, we've won the

21:32

war. This is the moment

21:34

the UK realised it might have

21:36

been a little hasty to turn

21:38

away from its Antipodean allies. After

21:42

the break, we'll be back for the

21:45

new dawn of this friendship. Stay

21:47

with us. We'll

21:58

be back. Good news. Ad-free

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to bluehost.com/Wondersuite. We're

23:00

into the 2020s. Bryson's

23:02

friends across the channel are

23:04

well, now firmly, frenemies.

23:07

Who is Johnson's Prime Minister? And

23:09

he's managed to e-cast a European trade

23:11

deal enough of his MPs will be

23:14

happy with. At least by

23:16

his own measure. He's got Brexit done. He's taken back

23:18

control. Now

23:21

Johnson just has to prove it was all

23:23

worthless. This was going to

23:26

be global Britain. All

23:28

he had to do was sign a couple of trade deals. Easy,

23:30

right? And Australia was the first

23:33

country he turned to. We

23:35

send you penguins and you

23:37

send us with reduced carrots,

23:39

these wonderful Arnott's Timtans. How long

23:41

can the British people be deprived

23:43

of the opportunity to have

23:47

Arnott's Timtans as a reasonable?

23:50

Let's get this free trade

23:52

agreement done. Australia and

23:54

the UK coming closer together

23:56

than ever before. Dealing

24:00

with Australians is extremely easy. I mean the free

24:02

trade deal that was recently completed between Australia and

24:05

the UK. Here's Rowan Mottigan,

24:07

formerly of Number 10. Liz

24:09

Truss was pretty much like, if you can't make

24:12

a deal with the Aussies, who can

24:14

you really make one with? It was

24:16

extremely symbolic and extremely important. And I

24:18

think Australia understood that when they came

24:20

to the negotiating table. And there were

24:22

a lot of, let's say, upset stakeholders

24:24

in a lot of Britain's agricultural exporters.

24:28

Angry farmers. The

24:30

British farmers were angry for a

24:32

reason. They were terrified of cheap,

24:35

high quality Australian meat

24:37

flooding the UK market.

24:40

And they were lobbying British politicians

24:42

hard. So, in the

24:44

run up to the free trade deal,

24:46

the Australian High Commission had been running

24:49

a very Australian charm offensive

24:51

in Westminster. It

24:53

was fun, it was friendly, and naturally

24:56

it was booze heavy. And

25:00

a Conservative government, keen

25:02

to banish its global Britain

25:04

credentials, fell into

25:06

its open arms. They

25:09

knew how to get things done in

25:11

Westminster. It was a very effective time.

25:13

If I remember correctly, there were party

25:15

pies and mince slices, there was Australian

25:17

beers and Australian gyms and things like

25:20

that. And look, diplomacy often

25:22

happens in the quiet,

25:24

dark corners of the country. And

25:27

if you think about a lot of

25:29

the ways that Australia has exercised its

25:31

soft power here in Westminster,

25:34

Sophia Gaston again. It's

25:36

always tapping into those things

25:38

that people really associate with Australia

25:40

in a kind of, sometimes

25:43

in a kind of stereotypical sense, but

25:45

otherwise, things like the food,

25:47

the wine. You can't

25:49

bring the sunshine here, but you can bring

25:52

the fruits of its labours. that

26:00

UK-Australia trade deal of

26:03

2021. Graham wrote

26:05

this incredible article for Polisco

26:07

last year, piecing together just

26:09

how the whole thing came

26:11

about. The deal, he discovered,

26:13

had culminated in a high-stakes

26:15

dinner between two Prime Ministers

26:17

in number 10. Boris

26:19

Johnson had this meeting, or dinner,

26:22

over Welsh lamb and

26:25

all kinds of other British delicacies with

26:27

Scott Morrison and Lord Frost and

26:29

George Brandis and some

26:32

of their retainers there as well,

26:34

and it got pretty boozy. George

26:36

Brandis, the very same Australian

26:38

High Commissioner who danced the night

26:41

away at that gay nightclub in

26:43

Manchester, was prepared for

26:45

what a night of Australian wine

26:47

might enable him to squeeze out of

26:49

Boris Johnson. The Australians

26:52

were very canny. They

26:54

knew all the pressure points that they would need

26:56

to and buttons to press on Boris Johnson, and

26:59

George Brandis excused himself from the table and he

27:01

was going to go to the washroom and then as he

27:03

was leaving the dinner he

27:06

passed a note that had been

27:08

scribbled on a little piece of

27:10

paper. He passed that to the

27:12

aid and then they very quickly

27:15

scanned that, sent it to the

27:17

Australian High Commission where there

27:19

was a trade adviser there who then

27:22

put it into a legal document and then

27:25

as George Brandis was coming back from

27:27

the washroom an aid had

27:30

printed it out and later

27:33

during the dinner they presented this

27:35

to Boris Johnson saying why not

27:37

fine right now and

27:40

and he did. So that happened basically

27:43

in the space of time that George Brandis was

27:45

in the bathroom so what 10 minutes? I

27:48

have no idea how long it

27:50

takes George Brandis to go to

27:52

the washroom but I would imagine

27:54

not very long. So the

27:57

Australian team were ready for this they already

27:59

had this sense that we

28:01

can get Boris to do this at this

28:03

dinner. They did. They

28:06

did. The

28:15

relationships forged during those

28:17

trade negotiations were instrumental

28:19

in creating a new connective tissue

28:22

between Australian diplomats and the

28:24

UK government. Key figures

28:26

from Australian politics like Tony Abbott

28:28

got jobs as trade advisors here in

28:30

the UK. At

28:33

the same time as Boris was dining out

28:35

on the free trade deal, the

28:37

UK and Australia had signed another

28:39

pact, this time with the United

28:41

States. An ally Britain

28:44

was all too eager to impress.

28:46

A supreme example of global Britain in

28:48

action is something daring and brilliant that

28:51

would simply not have happened if we'd

28:53

remained in the EU. I give

28:56

you AUKUS. AUKUS

28:58

is basically a massive three-way

29:00

defence partnership in the Pacific

29:02

between Britain, America and

29:04

Australia. All three nations

29:07

have their eyes closely trained on

29:09

the growing threat from

29:11

China. Australia is going to

29:13

be one of our most important gateways

29:15

into the Indo-Pacific region. And

29:17

for Australia, Britain is

29:20

a really important gateway to the Euro-Atlantic

29:22

region and access and

29:25

influence within that community. There's

29:28

also the threat of a more

29:30

volatile friend in that also special

29:32

relationship with the US. For

29:35

both of us, the United States

29:37

is our most vital security ally.

29:42

I think there's an opportunity and

29:45

a necessity in there. The

29:47

reality is that we

29:49

are, through AUKUS and a range

29:51

of other different forms of security

29:54

cooperation, going to

29:56

be somewhat vulnerable to the headwinds

29:59

of America. political turbulence and

30:01

dysfunction. In addition

30:04

to forging new trade and

30:06

security partnerships, post-Brexit Britain was

30:08

also trying to tackle its

30:10

migration problem. In 2016,

30:14

take-back control had been slapped

30:16

on buses, on banner advertisements

30:18

and repeated interview after

30:20

interview. But the boats still

30:23

kept coming. Once again,

30:26

Britain turned to Australia for

30:28

inspiration. You could not walk around

30:30

Westminster and you could not use the

30:32

phrase Australian-style enough because things

30:35

in Australia do work well. We have a

30:37

points-based immigration system in Australia. It

30:40

works reasonably well. It was

30:42

introduced in the UK, Australian-style

30:44

immigration, points-based immigration system. You

30:46

know, brand Australia is strong. People look at Australia,

30:48

they see it, you know, people are

30:50

half-pintering and tanned and bronzed and out-dawty

30:54

and there is a vision of Australia as being the

30:56

sub-idelic place. So for British

30:58

politicians, this is kind of a selling point.

31:01

It was this idealised version

31:03

of Australia. It was a

31:05

version of Australia I was living out when

31:07

I was climbing into my car down at Bondi

31:09

Beach. To

31:12

some, it was also a way

31:14

of softening quite hard-line policies on

31:17

issues like immigration to make them

31:19

palatable. But are Australian-style

31:21

policies really so transferable to

31:23

the UK? Here's John MacTannan.

31:26

The Australian population divide the resource

31:28

of a continent between themselves. So

31:31

if we wanted an Australian-style Brexit for us,

31:33

it would be that we cleared everybody off

31:35

the continent of Europe and Britain moved there

31:37

and then we used the entire resources from

31:39

Spain to Hungary and from... It's

31:43

that misunderstanding of how underlingly

31:45

wealthy Australia is, particularly minerals.

31:48

I know why people cite Australian British

31:50

politics. I know why people love Australia because

31:53

I do. It's a great country. But the

31:56

more you know, the less you think

31:58

it can be just transferred over. The

32:00

author of modern Australian immigration policy

32:03

is, of course, John

32:05

Howard. He's 75 now,

32:08

and sitting in his armchair in

32:10

a well-to-do Sydney suburb overlooking the

32:12

harbour, he could be your

32:14

kindly relative. But when

32:16

he was Prime Minister, he was brutally

32:19

effective. I have to

32:21

admit, I still had single digits on my birthday

32:23

cards when he was running the country. But

32:26

those slightly older than myself

32:28

describe him as ruthless when

32:31

he was administering highly controversial

32:33

policies. First, he risked

32:35

his premiership to outlaw guns in Australia

32:37

back in the 90s, and

32:40

then came his famous pledge

32:42

to control Australia's borders and

32:45

stop illegal immigration. I

32:47

would not like Australia to

32:50

surrender its control over

32:52

migration and things like that. Can

32:55

we talk a little bit about

32:57

the immigration policies which have come

32:59

up in the UK? You

33:01

had that famous line. But we will

33:03

decide who comes to this country and

33:06

the circumstances in which they come. I

33:09

thought it was what everybody felt. The

33:12

Australians are happy to support

33:15

a high level

33:17

of migration, providing they

33:19

feel the migration program is

33:21

properly controlled. When it

33:24

gets out of control, they get nervous

33:26

and say, let's not have

33:28

as many migrants. What do

33:30

you think about the UK trying to

33:32

replicate what was essentially your original policy?

33:36

Essentially, we are going to separate the asylum-seeker

33:39

policy from the general

33:41

immigration policy. I

33:43

think our policy, when we had

33:45

a problem with asylum seekers, worked

33:47

well. There was a

33:49

lot of international criticism, but the

33:52

Australian public liked it. I've

33:55

talked to many British political

33:57

figures, particularly on the concerned side.

34:00

on the conservative side, but not totally on

34:02

the conservative side, and they understand that

34:04

it works. In

34:06

hindsight, he's almost nonchalant about how

34:09

successful he was in getting what

34:11

he wanted. He said he'd stopped the boats,

34:14

and for a while at least, they stopped. But

34:17

at the time, Howard faced many

34:19

of the same criticisms Rishi Sunak

34:21

is coming up against now. I

34:24

understand what he's up to and I sympathise

34:26

with it, but it's pretty tough. You've

34:28

got the pressure of international organisations, you've

34:31

got the human rights lobby, and it

34:34

galls me a bit that a country that's had

34:36

a pretty good human rights record which is

34:39

big. Guess election.

34:41

Were there similar concerns when you

34:43

introduced it? Oh yes, there were.

34:46

We were told we were making

34:48

Australia unpopular around the world. We

34:50

weren't actually. A lot of people understood

34:53

what we tried to do. And

34:55

the important thing was to stick to our guns.

34:59

And I hope Rishi does that. 20

35:02

odd years on, the Australian approach

35:04

to stopping migrant boats remains prissy

35:06

divisive. Some people hail it

35:08

as a triumph. Others see

35:10

it as the start of something

35:12

insidious in the Western approach to

35:14

migration. One former

35:17

Prime Minister, at least, is in no doubt.

35:19

To have in this room a

35:21

man who prevailed against all the

35:24

doubters and all the legal contortionists,

35:27

to quote him, John Hart, just

35:29

in case you're not following, we

35:32

decide who comes to this country

35:35

and the conditions under which they

35:37

come here. Many,

35:40

however, have been sceptical of Britain's

35:43

ability to copy and paste an

35:45

Australian-made policy onto Britain. John

35:48

MacTannan again. The thing is, you can

35:50

swim the channel. You can't swim to Australia,

35:52

right? That's the simplest way of putting

35:54

it. This could make or break the

35:56

next election. Rishi Sunak, obviously, hopes

35:58

it will be a good time. be in his

36:00

favour. And this will be

36:02

the wedge issue between him and the Labor

36:04

Party. But it

36:06

might not be so simple. I

36:09

think applying Stop the Boats into

36:11

the UK is a mistake. Latika Burke

36:13

again. Australia did run this

36:16

campaign slogan. It was Tony Abbott

36:18

in 2013, a Liberal

36:20

leader, conservative. And

36:22

he did win an election. And

36:24

he did go on to stop the boats.

36:26

Australia can stop the boats because

36:28

it's surrounded by international waters. And

36:31

it undertook really extreme measures, which were

36:33

basically going and intercepting asylum seeker boats,

36:36

putting them onto lifeboats, dragging them to

36:38

the edge of international waters with Indonesia,

36:40

giving them enough fuel. And so they

36:43

would make sure in Java.

36:46

Now Britain does not have those options

36:48

available to it. So

36:50

can it actually stop the boats?

36:53

So running on an absolutist slogan

36:55

like that leaves you very little

36:57

wriggle room if you

36:59

have not stopped the boats come the time of the

37:01

election. Nevertheless, Sunak's conservatives

37:04

have worked hard to make

37:06

immigration and his own Stop the

37:08

Boats pledge a central part

37:10

of this year's UK election campaign.

37:13

I think it's undeniable that migration is going

37:15

to be an issue in this election as

37:17

it is across Europe as it is in

37:20

the United States. I think it's

37:22

a little bit naive to think that the

37:24

conservatives wouldn't want to run on this issue,

37:27

because what they will be

37:29

hoping is a replica of what happened

37:31

in Australia over many elections where the

37:34

Labor Party and its base feels

37:36

deeply uncomfortable about running very hard

37:38

anti migration lines or even controlling

37:40

border lines. And we saw that

37:42

during Brexit here. And

37:45

that is the trap that the conservatives

37:47

will be hoping that Kistama and Labor

37:49

here fall into. This

37:52

trap is one all too

37:54

familiar to Isaac Levito. Remember

37:57

him? He's the Australian

37:59

campaign's strategist behind Rishi Sinek.

38:02

He's now leading that long line

38:04

of antipody and spinners that started

38:07

with Linton Crosby. And

38:09

Linton always reminded me of

38:12

how John Howard stuck

38:14

to a simple message of

38:16

his philosophy. The Crosby Texture

38:19

firm that brought a style of

38:22

campaigning to the UK that was

38:25

not only different but highly successful.

38:28

And that I think has left

38:30

a legacy in UK politics where

38:32

there's a tendency to

38:34

look to the southern hemisphere for perhaps

38:37

trends and solutions and ways of communicating

38:39

that maybe the British don't think about

38:41

themselves. How do you mean

38:44

it was different? Australians are extremely

38:46

clear and direct communicators. That

38:49

does lead to some cultural issues

38:51

I have found as an Australian

38:53

working in Britain sometimes. When it

38:55

gets going in campaign mode you

38:58

have this ability to distill

39:00

messages in a way

39:03

that the British sometimes aren't capable of doing

39:05

themselves. The

39:09

Crosby Texture firm have said they're

39:11

now tapped out of British and

39:13

Australian elections. One insider

39:15

told me, you get all of the pain

39:17

and none of the payoff. But

39:19

the success of Crosby and then Lovido

39:21

gave others with an Aussie twang a

39:23

leg up when it came to getting a

39:26

gig in Westminster. Here's Rowan Watt

39:28

again. You come in with

39:30

an Australian accent and frankly

39:32

there is a preconceived notion of you're

39:34

an Australian working in Westminster. They associate

39:37

you with other Australians who are

39:39

doing great things at Westminster. Now

39:41

that's not to say all Australians working

39:43

in British politics have been successful.

39:46

I heard one story of an Australian

39:48

snapper being hired on the misguided basis

39:50

that they, like their

39:52

compatriots, would be an electoral genius only

39:56

for them to be banished to the boot

39:58

room of a Grimsby fish market. But

40:01

given the turbulence of British politics these

40:03

past few years, these Aussie

40:05

campaign strategists are at least now

40:07

working in a staffing which is

40:09

familiar to them. Britain

40:12

had gone Australia, hold my beer. Let

40:15

me show you how it's done. I

40:18

mean to Australia's credit we never had a Prime Minister in

40:20

for 44 days. I

40:22

think Brexit has instituted

40:24

an erosion of discipline

40:26

and convention. And

40:29

it's been a bit more like

40:31

the Wild West for the past

40:33

decade as a result. Our politics,

40:35

our political rhetoric has become much

40:37

coarser. And that's the sort

40:39

of style of politics that does feel

40:41

a little bit more comfortable in the

40:44

Australian context than compared to what we

40:46

were used to here in the UK.

40:49

But there's something else. Australia

40:51

only has three-year political terms, so

40:54

you are kind of in a

40:56

constant feeling of campaign. When

40:58

Bill Shorten ran a union, he made

41:00

deals stripping pay from workers and took

41:02

secret payments. If union members could trust

41:04

him with their money, how can you

41:06

trust him with yours, Labour? Just do

41:08

Australia can't afford. And I

41:10

do think that British politics over the

41:13

past decade has increasingly felt preoccupied

41:15

with political campaigning. So the parties

41:17

are in constant campaign mode and

41:20

they're thinking, you guys know how

41:22

to do this. And

41:24

precisely, the Australian system

41:26

is seen to be in

41:28

constant campaign mode and also a

41:31

system in which anything is possible

41:33

and in which engaging with dirty tricks,

41:35

I think, is seen to

41:37

be fair game. All of that

41:40

was really absorbed in the British system.

41:45

Now, look, this way of

41:47

working, the Australian method of campaigning,

41:49

if you will. It

41:52

may have won elections, but it has

41:54

also won some enemies. Over

41:56

the last few years, we've seen any number of

41:58

people say, OK, you can do this. win.

42:00

But can you govern? And

42:02

actually there are some voices, especially the kind of

42:04

old Blairites, who

42:07

would say baking in some of the

42:09

rough and tumble of Australian politics into

42:11

our own system has done more harm

42:13

than good. Eventually the

42:15

goal of politics is to win

42:17

elections and then fade into the

42:20

background a little bit so voters

42:22

can live their lives without, frankly, worrying

42:24

about what's happening in Westminster, let

42:27

alone being actively embarrassed by it. This

42:30

makes the lesson for labour all

42:33

the more valuable. Last

42:59

year Keir Starmer even flew over his

43:01

very own Aussie spinner to help

43:03

with the local elections, David Nelson,

43:06

a political strategist described to

43:08

me as very Australian, whatever

43:10

that means. He's

43:12

apparently spent a lot of time

43:14

in Labour HQ recently. His colleague

43:16

back home, Paul Erickson, is

43:18

the general secretary of the National Labour

43:20

Party in Australia and has been giving

43:23

regular briefings to UK Labour, to

43:25

the extent that one staffer said he

43:27

hears Morgan McSweeney, Starmer's head honcho, mimicking

43:30

Erickson's turn of phrase. That's

43:47

Labour's shadow education secretary Bridget

43:49

Phillipson again. In the

43:51

last year, multiple Labour ministers have flown

43:53

out to Australia to see how their

43:55

successful policies from health to childcare have

43:57

worked and to see if they can

43:59

copy their election playbook. It was

44:01

a very short visit, all things considered,

44:03

so four days. So quite

44:06

a tight visit. We packed a lot in, went

44:09

out to speak at the conference, but also to

44:11

see what they're doing in delivering

44:13

their childcare commitments that they made as

44:16

part of that election-winning manifesto to meet

44:18

with Australian Labour colleagues and to see

44:21

how they're bringing to life a very exciting agenda about

44:23

what Labour can do to deliver for

44:25

families. She made the long, exhausting

44:27

journey to compare Australia's approach to childcare,

44:29

both in terms of policy and how

44:31

to sell it in a campaign. I

44:33

had the opportunity to meet with the

44:35

Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese, and

44:37

also just to see it firsthand how

44:40

exhilarating it was, really, for a Labour

44:42

government to have won an election with

44:45

such a positive offer, but to be bringing that to

44:47

life. And what was your experience

44:49

like of talking to them about childcare and how

44:51

important it was for their election, and therefore how

44:53

important it might be for this election? They

44:56

believed it was important, both in terms of addressing

44:58

the cost of living challenge that families there are

45:00

facing just as is the case here in

45:02

Britain, but also how

45:04

it allowed them to tell a positive

45:06

story about the direction of their country,

45:08

about the economy and growth. Basically, when

45:11

people start to get older, they settle

45:13

down, they have kids, and so the

45:15

political legend goes, they start to vote

45:17

conservative. Labour seems

45:19

to be hoping they can tap

45:22

into those late 30-something-year-olds or

45:24

people in their early 40s to bring them

45:26

onside. This is exactly

45:28

what Australian Labour did. They're

45:31

the very people that, in

45:33

many of our target seats, are

45:35

really concerned about lack of access to childcare,

45:37

about how it is making

45:39

it hard to combine work and family life.

45:41

That was a really strong message that

45:43

they delivered all from Australia. While

45:46

she was there, Phillipson had a

45:48

chance to watch Question Time, Canberra's

45:50

daily version of PMQs. Yep,

45:53

I said daily. Many

46:00

of the opposition will remove himself from

46:02

the chamber under 94A. Bring

46:05

the crockets all over the building. Are you

46:07

accepting it? No, of course not. No. The

46:10

government is not accepting it. We'll pick it up in

46:13

two weeks' time. Many

46:15

with quite a similar political culture, quite

46:17

a robust parliamentary session,

46:19

very similar to ours in terms of

46:21

the building itself, the

46:24

layout, the nature of the

46:26

debate. And it happens every day, which

46:28

must be absolutely exhausting. It

46:30

was even more shouty and angry

46:33

and adversarial than our own

46:35

PMQs, if anyone believes that could be

46:37

possible. This political culture is

46:39

what the UK Labour Party are hoping

46:41

could help them win the next election.

46:44

The reason that David Nelson and

46:46

Paul Erickson are really important advisers to UK

46:49

Labour is that they

46:51

are very, very, very smart. John

46:53

McTienan again. They're very good

46:55

campaigners. They're very thoughtful, they're

46:57

very reflective, and they learn

47:00

from other people's elections too. They learn from European

47:02

ones, they learn from American ones. And so David

47:04

and Paul, they're laser-like

47:06

about great

47:08

strategies, a scrupulous about the actual reality of

47:10

what's going on, the actual options

47:12

that you have, and then you have a strategy

47:14

and you execute it briefly. Okay,

47:18

this might be a little

47:20

too risqué for this podcast.

47:23

But when I told an Australian plesico

47:25

that UK Labour was looking to Canberra

47:27

to secure an electoral victory, she laughed.

47:30

She said, it's pretty ironic, because

47:33

Australian Labour literally won by

47:35

a bee's dick. By

47:37

the time Anthony Albanese came along, the Australian

47:39

Liberals had been in power since They

47:42

entooled themselves to shreds and lost a lot of

47:44

good faith. And then Albanese

47:46

only won on a knife edge and

47:49

found themselves in a precarious position in

47:51

terms of actually governing. the

48:00

son of a single mum who was

48:02

a disability pensioner, can

48:04

stand before you tonight as Australia's

48:07

Prime Minister. Not

48:09

dissimilar to the Conservatives here in Britain,

48:11

they won the campaign. It

48:14

struggled to hit their strategy movement. When

48:17

I put this to a Labour staffer who's done

48:19

a bit of buttering up to the

48:21

Aussies, they said they would take winning,

48:24

even if it was. Only buy

48:26

a bee's dick. That's an

48:28

Australian way to put it. But he could back again.

48:31

I think this is also a mistake. And this is

48:33

the one thing I would say. There is this tendency

48:35

in the UK to say, hey, we're looking

48:38

at Australia with fascination, maybe we can

48:40

replicate some of those winning

48:42

formulas. These

48:44

are mistakes for the UK to make. Australia

48:47

is a very different society to the British.

48:51

Australia is not generally as

48:53

progressive. I

48:55

think sometimes this tendency in the

48:57

UK to copy Australia is a

48:59

bit of a folly because you

49:01

cannot put one society onto the

49:03

other. I

49:06

have actually written a piece about this warning

49:08

that kids' down is micro-target

49:10

strategy, whereby you literally promise to

49:13

do all the things that Conservatives

49:15

would do on national security, on

49:17

border control, on migration, on the

49:20

economy. Sound familiar? This is exactly

49:22

what Anthony Albanese did in Australia.

49:25

Eighteen months in, Anthony Albanese finds himself

49:27

in a position where he has not

49:30

a lot of mandate. But

49:32

the UK Labour Party are looking for

49:34

an example to follow, and

49:36

they've turned to Australian Labour. The

49:39

commitments that they made were very

49:42

focused, very specific, but

49:44

with a clear plan to make that all

49:47

happen and bring it to life. I

49:49

took that away in terms of the approach that

49:52

we're taking and how it

49:54

allows parties of the left in particular to

49:57

make the case to voters. The

50:02

Kia Starmer's Labour Party, a party which hasn't

50:04

been in office since 2010, a chance to

50:07

hold the keys to Downing Street is pretty

50:09

much, it seems, all they are

50:11

asking for. And if they can

50:14

learn that lesson from Australia, they will. One

50:17

insider said it's really the tale of

50:19

two elections, 2019 where

50:22

Australian Labour lost the

50:24

Unlusable election, and

50:26

2022 where they finally

50:28

got through, only by a

50:30

whisker. UK Labour wants

50:32

to make sure they're the latter, not the

50:34

former. But perhaps there's

50:37

reason to be wary of borrowing too

50:39

much from the Australian example. Almost

50:42

everyone I spoke to for this episode brought

50:44

up immigration, which is probably one

50:46

of the first things you think of when you

50:48

conjure up Australian politics. The toxicity

50:50

of this debate has, for the moment,

50:52

died down in Australia, but it's not

50:54

without its scars. And

50:56

the turmoil of all of those leadership

50:58

spills. All that

51:00

backbiting. All those different

51:03

premonisters has hardly left the

51:05

country unscathed. These

51:07

days, nobody associates Australia with

51:09

sensible politics, or with

51:12

strong and stable leadership. And

51:14

given the past few years

51:16

here in Westminster, maybe that's

51:18

the lesson Britain needs to

51:20

learn from down under. Thanks

51:27

for listening to Westminster Insider. With me,

51:29

Sasha Rose-Eleman. If you've enjoyed

51:31

it, please spread the word, follow us, and maybe

51:33

leave us a note for review. And

51:36

please don't forget you can go back and listen

51:38

to old episodes. Like Aggies and

51:40

the secrets of TV news from season

51:42

9. You really should, it's very good.

51:45

Aggies here with us. How did she get here?

51:47

Hello. Sasha, I absolutely loved your episode. What

51:49

an amazing debut. You should be very proud.

51:52

I know I desperately, desperately want to go

51:54

to Australia, but I have to

51:56

say the cherry on top of a very delicious

51:58

cake with grey and lung trees. Talking

52:00

about the trade deal and how

52:02

long it takes. George Brandis. First,

52:04

the toy That was just fantastic. To

52:07

philosophical thought as never wanted. To

52:09

complete the process but Aggie. Your back

52:11

next week of that next a what

52:13

are you talking about? So I am

52:15

doing an episode for next week on

52:17

the Leaking so obviously ever won the

52:19

ever want to be sadness and. His

52:22

team and. That when you get done.

52:24

listen, you're basically. An M I

52:26

Six Sky. Flush detective rolled into

52:28

one and he leaps of these materials

52:30

under the table and as of are

52:33

excited so I'm going to his from

52:35

be both the actually. Have. Got stories

52:37

that. Like that so I have very

52:39

much enjoyed making it. I hope people

52:41

will tune into the next late. Amazing!

52:43

I can't wait to less said. My

52:48

produces a suite with John Rogers. And Robot

52:51

Nicholson of Whistle Down Productions and

52:53

Here Plus caped my second producers

52:55

Christina Gonzales and my editor It's

52:57

Or Dancer. And you will be

52:59

back next week! See the. Tired

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