0:00

Aaron, I saw something weird on the internet the

0:02

other day. Max, I thought I told

0:04

you that despite the cute name, that subreddit

0:06

is a bad place. No, no, I'm

0:08

staying away. The weird thing I saw was

0:10

a headline that

0:13

said that in the two years since

0:15

Roe v. Wade was overturned, which was

0:17

supposed to be like the big victory

0:19

for the anti-abortion movement and did lead

0:21

to all these red state abortion bans,

0:24

despite all that, the number of

0:26

abortions in the US has actually gone up.

0:29

Yeah, you're operating under the assumption that banning

0:31

something makes people do it less. OK, well,

0:33

usually that's how it works. Yeah, well, you're

0:35

not wrong to be surprised. When

0:37

the Supreme Court handed down their Dobbs

0:39

decision in 2022, anti-abortion advocates celebrated

0:42

what they hoped was the beginning of the

0:44

end of abortion in America, a victory nearly

0:46

50 years in the making. You did

0:48

it! You did it! But

0:51

what happened was not total anti-abortion

0:53

victory, not at all, because now

0:55

the anti-choice side got another war

0:57

to fight, one that they did

0:59

not see coming, but might be

1:01

even tougher for them than Roe,

1:04

thanks to a drug called

1:06

Mifepristone. And we saw the first battle in

1:08

that war at the Supreme Court just this week.

1:13

I'm Erin Ryan. I'm Max Fisher. And

1:15

this is How We Got Here, a series where

1:17

Erin and I explore a big question behind the

1:19

week's headlines and tell a story that answers that

1:21

question. This week, how did

1:24

Mifepristone, AKA, RU-486, become

1:26

public enemy number one of the

1:28

anti-abortion movement? And does its popularity

1:30

mean that the pro-choice side is

1:33

quietly winning? That's kind of what it

1:35

sounds like. So I was surprised to learn that according

1:38

to the Guttmacher Institute, which is

1:40

a reproductive rights policy and research

1:42

organization, nearly two thirds of abortions

1:45

in the US last year were

1:47

medication abortions, i.e. poppings and pills.

1:50

Like I had always pictured somebody needing to,

1:52

you know, drive up to an abortion clinic,

1:54

get escorted through protestors holding signs and shouting,

1:57

go through a metal detector, sit in a

1:59

waiting room, surround. The By Shatterproof Bass.

2:01

And that still happens. Surgical abortions

2:03

are still a vital part of

2:05

abortion. Guess that's because medication abortion

2:07

isn't appropriate for all pregnancy terminations

2:09

like if you need an abortion

2:11

and second trimester or later ah,

2:13

for example, or in some cases

2:15

when patients would just prefer the

2:17

surgical procedure to pills. But for

2:19

millions of people, the option to

2:21

have a self managed abortion at

2:23

home. Is Huge! You have given

2:26

a choice between a minor surgical procedure and

2:28

taking a few pills and been doing show

2:30

gun on my couch. I'm going to choose

2:32

the couch like imagine if you could have

2:34

wisdom teeth removed that way. Honestly, it

2:36

would save me a very weird

2:38

override in Brooklyn and seen a

2:41

medication. Abortions also provide access for

2:43

people who would find it difficult

2:45

to get to a clinic. like

2:47

if you live in a rural

2:49

area or estate with an abortion

2:51

ban. Or they be you face

2:53

social or religious pressure against ending

2:55

a pregnancy. Regardless, the availability of

2:57

Never Presume has completely revolutionized abortion

3:00

in America. Okay, see where this

3:02

is going. So the reason that so many

3:04

people are still able to have abortions in

3:06

a country that is otherwise covered by a

3:08

patchwork of abortion bans, is they can just

3:10

do it safely at home. Yeah, but

3:12

it's not just the U S. and

3:14

I'm not being hyperbolic when I say

3:16

that medication, abortion, and specifically member persona

3:18

has changed the course of world history.

3:20

Oh, and because of that, there's more

3:22

drama in the history of Mr. Preston.

3:24

Then on the second to last season

3:26

of Vendor Pump Rules I will be.

3:28

As a huge vander pump stand, the judge of

3:31

that. Okay, Battle. And so if

3:33

this is a prestige Tv limited

3:35

series, the pilot is in Brazil

3:37

and I mean that in more

3:39

ways than one here. Salivate And

3:41

the V P for Public Policy

3:43

at the Good Marker Institute on

3:46

the very first abortion pill that

3:48

is activists in Brazil in the

3:50

eighties, she saw that the drug.

3:52

Cytotech? What is the brand name of my

3:54

Apostle? Ah Miss came onto

3:56

the market their over the counter

3:59

to handle oh see I assume

4:01

authors. And have very clear labeling

4:03

that you. Should not take it

4:05

if you are pregnant And the

4:08

brilliant actor this decided that that

4:10

was something that they. Could test

4:12

out and see if it actually worked to

4:14

safely and an abortion. And that is where

4:16

the understanding of my. The past all

4:18

of a way to safely and

4:20

a pregnancy came from weeks. This

4:23

is how people discovered that be

4:25

suppressed. I was a way to

4:27

safely and pregnancy. These are some

4:29

hardcore citizen scientists. I. Mean, look

4:31

at the advances Brazil has brought to

4:33

waxing and soccer. But yes they figure

4:35

out it safe and it's around. This

4:37

time the different endocrinologist at the and

4:40

and does your develops a new drug.

4:42

Today's it crawled never presume. right? That's

4:44

the one on the news this week. Yeah, he and

4:46

a bunch of other doctors combine it

4:48

with me the prose style and this

4:50

to drug course becomes the gold standard

4:53

of medication, abortion or you Forty Six

4:55

was also found to be safer, less

4:57

invasive, and less expensive than surgical abortion

4:59

or early pregnancy. While the nineties

5:01

race huge decade for breakthroughs in

5:03

new wave music and abortions, Sir.

5:06

Where I lose. New drug goes to market

5:08

in France in China in September of Nineteen

5:10

Eighty Eight, and by late October of that

5:12

year, more than ten thousand limited taking the

5:14

drugs and it was on its way to

5:17

being approved for use in the Netherlands. But

5:19

then. Everyone was really tell about it and women

5:21

were able to get the health care they needed for

5:23

the rest a time. Ah

5:25

the least till people. Of

5:28

all time. answer the picture of the

5:30

American right to life movements. Or the

5:32

American Right to Life movement, which have

5:34

been growing more and more powerful during

5:36

the Reagan years. started protesting argue Four

5:39

Eighty Sixes manufacture in France, despite the

5:41

fact that company made it clear they

5:43

had no plans to even try to

5:45

enter the American market. Scary.

5:47

Process To They accosted employees and

5:49

parking garages. They threatened global boycotts

5:52

of the company's other drugs was

5:54

I think to executives is. Scarier

5:56

than actually have said. They were

5:58

generally there and. Imitating an annoying

6:00

selves. And to make matters worse, It

6:03

was the holocaust connections. Sorry did

6:05

you say the Holocaust connection. Yeah.

6:07

Doctor lawyer developed him if a

6:10

person for a French pharmaceutical company

6:12

resell cloth. But. Result: Class

6:14

Mean stakeholder was a German company that

6:16

had. To. Syfy decades before

6:19

helped manufacture the cyanide gas. Used.

6:21

In Nazi concentration. Camps. In

6:24

fairness, that is a little bit uncomfortable.

6:26

Yeah, So naturally, the anti Choice

6:29

activists began comparing medical abortion to

6:31

the Holocaust. A result, a class

6:33

executive did what executives do and

6:35

chickened out like, nope, we're not

6:37

dealing with this and they pulled

6:39

Muscle Crestone off the market. But

6:41

then. After global outcry, the

6:44

French government mounted a pressure campaign

6:46

for the health minister announcing. His.

6:49

Saying in the script that I should do this in a French. Our

6:51

that have a huge have to do in French accent. Ramzi

6:53

moments and government. I'm not doing

6:55

this round the moment. Government approval

6:57

for the drug was granted. Are

6:59

you Forty Six became the moral

7:02

property of women, not just the

7:04

property of the drug company. Finally,

7:06

a government agency that puts women

7:08

first. Yeah, well. they also hold

7:10

a stake in the company. While

7:12

was a government agency. The government of friends

7:15

held a stake in this pharmaceutical company

7:17

which is wilde but they could throw

7:19

their weight around and executives at Resell

7:21

a Class actually seemed relieved that the

7:23

decision to make and distribute this episode

7:25

with now technically out of their hands.

7:27

They're being forced to do it by

7:29

the French government. Okay, so

7:31

that is what is happening with the

7:33

first arrival of these pills in Europe

7:35

back in the eighties, but presumably it

7:37

showing up in other places to, right?

7:39

Right? Won't sign of Pirates A version of

7:42

Never Press Stone which it uses to enforce

7:44

it's one child policy. Nice. Meanwhile, Latin America

7:46

begins cracking down on abortion pills, making even

7:48

miss a pro so hard to get and

7:51

miserable. Stone is banned here in the U

7:53

S. One of the first big public challenges

7:55

of that bantams and Ninety Ninety Two when

7:57

a punk anarchist, Leona Benson and Abortion. If

8:00

it were a later punk, the

8:02

Us government? How. Punk? Are we talking?

8:04

Like international drug smuggling, Punk was pretty

8:07

bones. I started today. Raphael, a host

8:09

of the podcast Cover Up the Pill

8:11

plot to get a handle on this

8:14

story of Larry I'm Leona scheme. They

8:16

had flown to London where the pill

8:18

was legal, secretly got some doses, and

8:20

within twenty four hours flew back to

8:23

the states and yes, sent a message,

8:25

sent a fax to the Us customs

8:27

ahead and telling her that hey, we're

8:30

coming into the country with this banned

8:32

substances and ah yes, they got stopped.

8:34

And they brought it to the supreme. Court and

8:37

Buses Like and a narco feminist Ocean's

8:39

Eleven year. Yeah and this is the

8:41

Oceans Eight eyewitnesses and surface so those activists

8:43

get back to the U S. their pills

8:45

get confiscated as lot of press attention. It

8:48

makes it to the supreme court which. In.

8:50

Ninety Ninety Two. Roundly,

8:52

Rejects legalizing with Bristow. So

8:55

where does that leave? things? Larry

8:57

is a clever guy here. Cj

8:59

again when he in Leone abandoned

9:01

had returned from London with the

9:03

pills and they had be confiscated.

9:05

Unbeknownst to. Literally every one I actually.

9:07

Asked Larry's attorney is a this he

9:09

had secretly stashed away and extra dose

9:11

of miss A persona. Nobody knew that

9:14

he had it and he decides that

9:16

you know if the government will overturn

9:18

the ban it maybe we can challenge

9:21

the patent. There was this obscured near

9:23

state law that said if a company

9:25

had drugmaker won't bring in a drug

9:28

the United States but it can be

9:30

produced in stayed in New York that

9:32

you can use it here. The Larry

9:35

later goes full breaking bad. He decides.

9:37

To build a secret lab in

9:39

a warehouse and he hires some

9:41

scientists, is able to confirm the

9:44

exact chemical composition of Miss Oppressed

9:46

Zone. So then Larry starts manufacturing

9:48

the first ever made in America

9:50

abortion pill and he actually goes

9:52

to the Sta and gets permission

9:55

to start clinical trial. some of

9:57

the earliest clinical trials in the

9:59

United. The with this medication. Okay to

10:01

change of plans. If I could take a

10:03

pill to dissolve my wisdom teeth, I'm staying

10:05

home and benching this show like sorry Shogun.

10:08

If you want to know more about the

10:10

absolutely Wilde has to the Abortion Pill in

10:13

the U S, listen to today's podcast Cover

10:15

Up The Pill Plots Will Lincoln are so

10:17

notes because truly what see shared is not.

10:19

Have said. Okay, so that brings us

10:21

up to the Clinton years. Yeah,

10:23

shortly after Bill Clinton said office and Nineteen

10:26

Eighty three, he directed the Ft A to

10:28

take steps to investigate Unbending. This. Process.

10:30

The first Us trial begins in

10:32

Nineteen Ninety Four and by nineteen

10:35

eighty six ft a panel had

10:37

actually recommended that the drug be

10:39

made available, but with approvals and

10:41

everything. That takes until September two

10:44

thousand, just a couple of months

10:46

for Bush v. Gore. Miss a

10:48

Priest Don't slides into the gallery

10:50

like Chris Pratt escaping the Raptor

10:53

Pen and a bad traffic Park

10:55

movie and s. Assess

10:59

Assess. Stay at Jurassic

11:01

World was it is enjoyable

11:03

theatrical experience. You say? so? One.

11:05

Thing that we hear parotid by people who

11:08

want never pressed don't taken off the market

11:10

now is that the drug isn't safe or

11:12

it with somehow rust through the approval process

11:14

which is just isn't true. There were mountains

11:16

of evidence showing that it was safe and

11:19

effective across Europe, China, Israel, and in Us

11:21

trials. Starting. In September, two

11:23

thousand Americans began using it largely

11:25

without complications, but then eleven year

11:27

later, Bst A added it to

11:29

a list of risky drugs. The.

11:31

Require patience to jump through several hoops

11:33

to get it. Also like did patients

11:36

have to solve a series of riddles. That

11:38

would have been kind of fun. Know it

11:40

wasn't fun of the A rules require that

11:42

are you for eighty six be prescribed only

11:45

by a doctor qualified to perform follow up

11:47

care. In the event of the drugs didn't work.

11:49

But the likelihood that they would actually need

11:51

to do with surgery after taking never press

11:53

don't was low, right? Yeah. The two

11:56

gentlemen a since. Take. an early enough

11:58

in pregnancy was soon to be upwards

12:00

of 95% effective. But just to make

12:03

triple extra sure, the FDA also required

12:05

the pill to be dispensed in person

12:07

and for the patient to take the

12:09

drug in front of the provider. That

12:12

kind of sounds like being in a psych

12:14

ward or jail. Yeah, exactly. Well,

12:16

and then 2016 happened. Sorry,

12:19

what happened in 2016? I went to the

12:21

Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mine Clinic and

12:23

had my memory of that year completely wiped.

12:26

I'm going to need you to tell me how to get to that clinic

12:28

after we're done recording. I

12:31

am jealous. So in 2016, the FDA

12:33

removed Miphyprisone from the list of drugs

12:35

requiring extra safety precautions, as

12:37

all that red tape wasn't making

12:39

patients any safer. So now abortion

12:41

drugs could be prescribed by other

12:43

health care providers and without ultrasound.

12:46

Then in 2021, the Biden administration

12:48

announced that it would no longer

12:50

be requiring providers to dispense RU-46

12:52

in person, which opened

12:54

it up to telemedicine. And also that

12:56

pharmacies could fill prescriptions for it as

12:58

well. Oh, that's huge. And then in

13:01

June 2022, the Supreme Court overturned Roe

13:03

v. Wade. Shortly thereafter,

13:05

strange lawsuit cropped up in

13:07

the Texas Panhandle. So this

13:09

is the case that we saw argued

13:12

now before the Supreme Court just earlier

13:14

this week. And I keep hearing court

13:16

watchers talking about how weird this whole

13:18

thing is. Yeah, we've finally

13:20

arrived at the Alliance for Hippocratic

13:22

Medicine versus the FDA, a cynical,

13:25

attempted legal rigging that is, yes,

13:28

also deeply weird. The lawsuit was filed

13:30

by a group of anti-abortion doctors that

13:32

banded together to sue the FDA over

13:34

the way that Miphyprisone is prescribed. The

13:37

doctor's group argued that the drug was

13:39

dangerous and that they were being forced

13:41

against their conscience to treat patients suffering

13:44

side effects of the medication. Here's

13:46

ACLU attorney Julia Kay, who gave us

13:48

some background on the plaintiffs. Many of the

13:51

members of these groups are not

13:53

practicing at all. They are retired

13:55

or they are dentists or they

13:58

practice in an. area

14:00

of medicine where there is

14:02

absolutely zero chance that they

14:04

would ever encounter one of

14:06

the exceedingly, exceedingly

14:08

rare circumstances

14:11

of a complication for medication abortion.

14:14

I hate it when my dentist

14:16

refuses to help me with my abortion.

14:18

Dentists? So it's

14:21

just completely like a manufactured case because

14:23

dentists don't have anything to do with this? No, they

14:25

don't. They're tooth doctors.

14:28

So they argued

14:30

that the FDA had

14:32

not done its due diligence, they

14:34

claimed, in approving the drug and

14:37

were asking the court to mandate

14:39

that the agency pull the drug

14:41

from the market entirely or at

14:44

least reinstate those onerous pre-2016 prescription

14:46

standards like you had to take it in front of a doctor.

14:49

And the justices seemed skeptical that the

14:51

alliance of offended doctors and dentists, some

14:54

of whom, again, were retired,

14:56

had been harmed by Miphypris Stone

14:58

considering their already granted exemptions from

15:00

having to perform procedures that they

15:02

object to. Here's Justice

15:05

Katanji Brown-Jackson. So the obvious

15:07

common sense remedy would be to provide

15:09

them with an exemption that they don't

15:12

have to participate in

15:14

this procedure. And you say, and you've said here

15:16

several times that federal law already gives them that.

15:19

The wild moment in the arguments where

15:21

Erin Hawley, who is the lead attorney

15:23

for the plaintiffs who are breaking the

15:26

suit, was not able to present a

15:28

single concrete example of her client's conscience

15:31

rights being infringed upon by the

15:33

existence of this drug. Oh,

15:36

yes. But they were very much victimized

15:38

in their imaginings. But

15:40

even conservative justices like Neil Gorsuch and

15:42

Amy Cooney Barrett seemed skeptical of the

15:44

plaintiffs standing in the case. So we

15:47

won't know until June how this will

15:49

all shake out, although most court watchers

15:51

predict a loss for the anti-Miphypris Stone

15:53

crowd. But if we know

15:55

anything about the anti-abortion movement, it's that they

15:57

play the long game. be

16:00

pretty sure that this isn't going to be the

16:02

last swing for the fences they make from

16:04

their footsteps. As

16:16

a chef and a restaurant owner, I'm as

16:18

meticulous about my cookware as I am about

16:20

my ingredients. That's why I love made-in cookware.

16:23

Each pan they make isn't just designed to

16:25

perform, it's crafted to last. As a mom,

16:27

I love that I can trust made-in. It's

16:29

made from the world's finest materials so I

16:31

can feel good about what I'm feeding my

16:33

family. I'm Shaq Brooke Williamson and I use

16:35

made-in cookware. The

16:38

South Dakota Stories, Volume 7. My

16:41

trip to South Dakota was the best summer

16:43

ever. Now I don't need to go

16:45

to Mars. Because I've been

16:48

to the Badlands. And

16:50

I caught a bigger walleye than Dad when

16:52

we went to the Missouri River. Then I

16:54

rode my bike through these huge rocks called

16:57

needles. Ooh, I also saw

16:59

my first herd of bison, even a

17:01

fuzzy furry baby one. I can't wait

17:03

to go back and see more. There's

17:06

so much South Dakota. So little time.

17:15

Well let's back up a bit. So

17:18

this medication has been around for years.

17:21

More and more people have been using it ever

17:23

since the FDA relaxed those regulations back in 2016.

17:26

So why are abortion opponents only going after

17:28

it like this now? Well for

17:30

one, in 2016, when your memory was

17:32

erased and those

17:34

mifepristone restrictions were relaxed, overturning

17:37

Roe seemed like a far away dream

17:39

for the aunties. So they

17:41

were still focused on overturning Roe back

17:44

then for those years, even as mifepristone

17:46

was growing in popularity. Yes, they were

17:48

obsessed with overturning Roe. But then Roe

17:50

fell in 2022 and the anti-abortion movement,

17:52

once they got over their champagne hangover,

17:54

looked around and realized the landscape had

17:56

totally changed. focused

18:00

everyone in the movement on this strategy,

18:02

overturning Roe, their white whale, that made

18:04

sense in the context of like the

18:07

80s or 90s, but not really in

18:09

the era of mifapristone and telemedicine. But

18:12

they figured it out pretty quickly. That Texas

18:14

lawsuit challenging the FDA's approval of mifapristone, the

18:16

one at the center of this week's SCOTUS

18:18

arguments, got filed just five

18:21

months after the Dobbs decision. Oh,

18:23

okay. So because Roe fell in the Dobbs

18:25

decision, 14 states banned abortion,

18:28

a bunch more passed all these

18:30

new restrictions. And yet nationwide, abortions

18:32

went up. Part of that

18:34

was backlash to Dobbs. Some blue states

18:37

expanded access to abortion or started offering

18:39

assistance to people traveling from nearby

18:42

red states or shielding people within

18:44

their borders from being prosecuted for

18:46

helping red state women get abortion

18:48

care. Public awareness of abortion

18:50

rights seems to have improved in response to.

18:53

Sure, but I'm still confused because all of

18:55

this made it harder for many millions of

18:57

people to access abortions, right? It

19:00

made it harder for millions of people to

19:02

access abortion clinics. What

19:04

the anti has failed to anticipate, I think,

19:06

is that women will continue

19:08

to seek abortion care until the cost

19:11

of having an abortion is greater to

19:13

them than the cost of having a baby they

19:15

don't want. Yeah. But

19:17

regardless, in a lot of circumstances, even in

19:19

red states, as long as you don't medically

19:21

require a clinic visit, it's actually easier to

19:24

access an abortion in the mifapristone era than

19:26

it was under Roe. Wow. And

19:28

that's what mostly drove the rise in abortions.

19:31

It's also important to note that the increase

19:33

in abortions recorded by Guttmacher only tracks abortions

19:36

take place within the medical system.

19:38

So we don't know how many women

19:40

use pills by mail requested and sent

19:43

through channels outside of medical establishment to

19:45

terminate their pregnancies. There's a fairly

19:47

common practice, especially in places like Texas.

19:50

So the number of abortions that actually

19:52

occurred in the U.S. since Dobbs is

19:54

probably a lot higher than what's been

19:57

reported. Wow. Okay. So

19:59

it's like if Roe The movie Wade was the castle

20:01

wall protecting abortion rights in America.

20:04

Then the anti-abortion movement knocked it

20:06

down only to discover that

20:08

immediately behind that wall was another

20:10

equally sized wall called Mephyprisone. That

20:13

sounds frustrating. Well, even if they did win

20:15

this case, they would discover that there's a

20:17

third wall, mesoprostyl. Okay,

20:19

so that is the drug that is used

20:21

in concert with Mephyprisone, right? Yeah, it's

20:24

also quite safe and effective when used on its own,

20:26

which in a lot of the world it is. Does

20:29

that mean that they're going to go after mesoprostyl now

20:31

too? That would be

20:33

pretty hard because mesoprostyl has a

20:35

lot of other uses like treating

20:37

ulcers and treating rheumatoid arthritis. So

20:40

we're not worried that Justice Alito is about

20:42

to discover that mesoprostyl violates the religious freedom

20:44

of ulcers? Our lady

20:46

of the bleeding stomach. For

20:49

now, the anti-abortion movement is focused on Mephyprisone.

20:51

That's the focus of this suit, maybe just

20:53

because they think it's a better place to

20:55

start. Why are reproductive

20:58

rights groups sounding the alarm over

21:00

protecting Mephyprisone if we have this

21:02

other drug too, mesoprostyl? They're a

21:04

bit more effective together. Mesoprostyl

21:07

alone is 88% effective, but when you add

21:09

Mephyprisone, it becomes 95% plus effective.

21:13

Okay. Mesoprostyl on its own

21:15

is also more painful. It can involve long

21:17

hours of pain and bleeding and more side

21:19

effects like nausea. Combining it

21:21

with Mephyprisone counteracts that. Add

21:24

Mephyprisone is important for treating miscarriages,

21:26

which is another big reason that

21:28

reproductive rights activists want to protect it. Here's

21:31

Dr. Jennifer Conte in OB-GYN and Medical

21:33

Journalist. A lot of times we use

21:36

this medicine for managing miscarriages that haven't

21:38

been completed. It's really

21:40

common. It's a lot less uncommon than you

21:42

would think to have a miscarriage in this

21:44

way that just doesn't completely get

21:48

recognized by your body and then get expelled.

21:51

In general, we think happens to like

21:53

one in five pregnancies. And

21:55

So a large chunk of those pregnancies are going

21:58

to, you know, at some point. And

22:00

a process navy need help getting

22:03

expelled and that's. It

22:05

is a huge use of miss a person

22:07

so when we talk about taking it away,

22:09

we're not talking about taking away for them

22:11

for the purpose of these assets. Think that

22:13

we're taking it away for it has other

22:16

uses. Were. Can't say I'm surprised

22:18

to learn that the anti abortion groups

22:20

are really on bothered by the idea

22:22

that banning me for prose.will mean women

22:24

having to face more dangerous and painful

22:26

miscarriages and. The. Health of the Mother Not

22:28

exactly a top. Priority. It's still. I'm

22:31

surprised they're going this hard for me for

22:33

pre stone is banning it wouldn't even and

22:35

medication abortion like a take your point that

22:37

maybe this is just step one and there's

22:39

of file somewhere in a basement laying out

22:42

a plan to target me supposed to, but

22:44

it still seems really odd to me. That

22:47

there's a real throwing spaghetti at the

22:49

wall quality to this entire legal strategy.

22:51

Well as the spaghetti is weird,

22:53

right wing's lawsuits and the Wall

22:55

is the Supreme court than in

22:57

fairness, this while has proven pretty

22:59

sticky. Have that i forgot a

23:02

little sister and a okay as

23:04

I guess what I mean is

23:06

that this court's conservative majority has

23:08

used a lot of very flimsy

23:10

legal cases to justify imposing conservative

23:12

values like say, overturning Roe and

23:14

this lawsuit also seems designed to

23:16

appeal to this court's love of

23:18

guarding federal regulatory agencies like the

23:20

Ft. A. That's. Exactly why the slapped

23:22

down and oral arguments this week was so

23:24

striking. It really reveals a week the legal

23:26

case is for banning the for Press stone

23:28

and I'm not saying that to Dunked on.

23:30

The answer is here and. Come on a little

23:32

that you are. In Air and Holly really

23:35

serve as a a a son to revel

23:37

in the humiliation of terrible cruel people. I

23:39

won't deny it, but I do have a

23:41

bigger point here which is that d galling

23:44

weakness of this case. So is how hard

23:46

this next stage the abortion site is going

23:48

to be to the anti movement. he

23:51

retired early or about one prong

23:53

of their case that administering never

23:55

priest own caused injury to a

23:57

handful of doctors i guess retired

23:59

dentist But there's some other prongs to this

24:01

too, right? So the doctor thinks about proving

24:03

legal standing, that they have the right to bring

24:05

the suit by showing someone was injured by the

24:07

FDA approving mifepristone. But their actual

24:10

legal challenge is different. They say

24:12

the FDA should never have approved

24:14

mifepristone at all. Yeah, this

24:16

is where it gets weird. The lawsuit argues

24:18

in part that the FDA used basically the

24:20

wrong regulation to approve mifepristone back in 2000.

24:23

Telling the government it filled out the wrong government

24:26

form does have a certain appeal as someone who

24:28

has been to the DMV, but

24:30

that seems like a really weak case for banning an

24:32

entire medication. Yeah, why are you hitting

24:35

yourself? Why are you hitting yourself? They're

24:37

also arguing more dramatically that the FDA ruled

24:39

incorrectly on the science when it approved mifepristone.

24:41

Put aside whether or not they're right. Which

24:44

they're not, I take it. No, no. But the

24:46

point is that they're asking the courts to

24:48

overrule the FDA on the science. That

24:50

would be a really radical change in how drug

24:52

regulation works in this country. The

24:54

way it's always worked is that agencies

24:56

like the FDA are the final authorities

24:59

on scientific questions. Well, they have the

25:01

lab coats and the microscopes and the fancy degrees

25:03

after all. Yeah, so the courts might

25:05

get involved if they think an agency

25:07

like the FDA has exceeded its legal

25:09

authority, but they're not gonna start second-guessing

25:11

whether government scientists got their calculations right.

25:14

Well, except this case is asking them to do exactly

25:16

that. Which is why they probably won't. But

25:18

if the Supreme Court were to comply, it would open

25:20

the door to all sorts

25:22

of politically motivated lawsuits aimed at

25:24

getting judges to ban drugs or

25:26

medical procedures for ideological reasons. So

25:29

if the Supreme Court broke down

25:31

this firewall and how regulation is

25:33

usually worked, you could have like,

25:35

whack job activists soliciting red state

25:37

judges to ban, you know, Plan

25:39

B or, I don't know, birth

25:41

control. Now you're cooking with gas.

25:43

I mean, it was barely a month

25:45

ago that the Alabama State Supreme Court

25:47

effectively banned IVF in the state. So

25:49

these are not fringe scenarios. And

25:52

there's another even weirder and scarier

25:54

argument in this lawsuit too, right?

25:57

Would you believe that they want the Supreme Court to consider a

25:59

board of directors? medication as equivalent

26:02

to pornography? I

26:04

would believe that, actually, yes, but please

26:06

explain. The lawsuit argues the

26:08

FDA, by permitting mifepristone to be

26:10

sent in the mail, violated

26:13

something called the Comstock Act.

26:15

I have never heard of this before. You are

26:17

so lucky. It is a

26:19

law from 1873, and it was

26:21

bizarre and puritanical, even for its

26:24

time. It banned using

26:26

the mail to deliver indecent or

26:28

pornographic materials, which lawmakers at the

26:30

time defined as including any material

26:32

promoting abortion and even contraception. Okay,

26:35

the existence of Planned Parenthood mailers

26:37

and Playboy feels like evidence that

26:40

this law is not really enforced.

26:42

The lawsuit asks the Supreme Court

26:44

to use the Comstock Act anyway

26:47

to basically create a federal ban

26:49

on telemedicine abortion pills. Oh. Yeah,

26:51

again, it doesn't appear that the court was receptive

26:54

because that means an end to Viagra,

26:58

anything that your pharmacy would get in

27:00

the mail that somehow deals with sexual

27:02

health and wellness. No

27:04

more toys and bay

27:06

blend boxes, faithfully disguised.

27:08

Well, this is part of what's

27:11

important about this, right? Because it

27:13

feels scary that these are now

27:15

the sorts of demands that the

27:17

anti-abortion movement is advancing, like

27:19

19th century anti-porn laws or gutting the

27:21

FDA or no more Playboy. I

27:25

don't know what they're doing in print anymore, actually. The

27:28

good news is that they're going to

27:30

these extremes because they have to, because

27:32

they're realizing that for the large share

27:34

of potential abortion seekers for whom pills

27:36

like Mifepristone are sufficient, the

27:38

abortion rights movement is kind of one.

27:41

So yes, they kind of have. But

27:43

of course we should quote because lots

27:46

and lots of women do still need

27:48

to visit a clinic for an abortion,

27:50

especially for people suffering from medical emergencies

27:53

and pregnancy complications. And if

27:55

you are one of those people and you live

27:57

in a red state, the post-row landscape bad.

28:00

And the same goes for abortion providers

28:02

in those states too. So

28:05

we've ended up at this like post-row,

28:08

post-mifepristone landscape that is both a

28:10

huge step backwards for some women

28:12

who can't rely on medication for

28:14

abortions, any big step forward for

28:17

the larger number of women who

28:19

can, at least for now. Yeah,

28:21

it's very much hanging in the

28:23

balance because if the FDA can

28:25

change the way that abortion is

28:27

accessed just by changing a rule

28:29

about how something is prescribed, then

28:32

a change in president who decides they

28:34

want to throw their weight around could

28:36

possibly bully the FDA into making changes

28:38

again. It's easy to imagine all

28:40

the ways that this can go sideways, but for

28:43

now, as long as the FDA

28:45

is not a political arm of

28:47

the White House, the only way

28:49

abortion foes are going to be able to stop abortion

28:51

in the US is either ban the

28:54

abortion pill or convince the

28:56

government to start messing around with

28:58

interstate commerce and the mail. So

29:01

both of these are kind of steep hills to climb as we

29:03

saw this week, but that's my

29:06

optimistic take. My chicken little take here is

29:08

that the mifepristone case is only the beginning.

29:10

Anti-choicers have made it clear they're coming for

29:12

things like IUDs in the morning after pill.

29:15

There's a couple states where they've already tried

29:17

to make it not possible for people to

29:19

use like government insurance to

29:21

get an IUD. Which is

29:23

pretty crazy. If they need to neuter the

29:25

FDA and thereby endanger the safety of all

29:28

other drugs in order to eliminate

29:30

abortion, that's a price they're willing to

29:32

pay. Well I'm crossing my

29:35

fingers that the optimistic errand is right.

29:37

My chicken little errand is probably a

29:39

little right too. It

29:41

takes no drugs going to be right and I

29:43

want to find the eternal centering of the fatless

29:45

man's cynic and erase my memory

29:47

of the Trump years and hopefully on

29:49

the other side of that one. I'm

29:52

gonna have the FDA to approve pill and medicine. All

30:00

we got here is a written host

30:03

of my main

30:05

Max Fisher and Aaron Ryan. My

30:09

producer is Austin Fisher

30:11

and the ILLIC Frank is our associate

30:13

producer. Evan Fenton mixes and masters the show.

30:17

Jordan Cantor sound engineers the show,

30:19

audio support from Kyle Cleglen, Charlotte Landis,

30:21

and the Seelie's Phytopolists. Production support

30:24

from Leo Duran, Raven Yamamoto,

30:26

Natalie Bettendorf, and Adrian Hill. And

30:28

a special thanks to What A Day's

30:31

wonderful hosts, Trevall Anderson, Priyanka Arabindi, Josie

30:33

Duffy Rice, and Juanita Toliver for welcoming

30:35

us to the family. The

31:04

South Dakota Stories, Volume 5. South

31:07

Dakota seemed like the perfect place to unplug,

31:10

but I ended up connecting to the world around

31:12

me. A world where

31:14

each sunset was painted, where I

31:17

felt adventures pulse with every step,

31:19

and where cold water trickling,

31:22

pine swaying, and grunting bison

31:24

became my favorite soundtracks. I

31:27

just wish I didn't have to leave. There's

31:29

so much South Dakota, so

31:31

little time. Thank

31:56

you for watching. and

32:00

Apple Watch SE with Eligible Service Plan, only

32:02

on Verizon.