0:02

How good are governments at maintaining

0:05

their own little fiat bubble against

0:07

the constant push of Bitcoin? Whether

0:09

you look at it as a very, very

0:12

large monetary asset globally or

0:15

virtually the only one, that's all still quite a

0:17

bit out. But I have pretty high ambitions for

0:19

what Bitcoin can do. Hello

0:21

there from Snowy, Nashville. Can't believe it. Me

0:24

and Danny got into Nashville last night and

0:26

started chucking it down with snow. Unbelievable.

0:28

It's always been hot when we've been here, but it's very

0:30

snowy. Anyway, we're here for the week. We're here for the

0:32

mining summit. We're here to make a bunch of shows.

0:34

So very excited to hang out at Bitcoin Park,

0:36

see some of you Bitcoiners. Anyway, welcome

0:39

to the What Bitcoin Did podcast, which is brought to

0:41

you by the massive legends of IRS Energy, the

0:43

largest NASDAQ listed Bitcoin miner using 100% renewable energy.

0:45

I'm your host, Peter McCormack, and we've got Lynne

0:47

back on the show. And I know she was

0:50

only on a few weeks ago, but as we

0:52

were in New York, we wanted to get together

0:54

with her in person to make a show. Now,

0:57

if you're a regular listener, you know, I've

0:59

been asking a question quite regularly recently, which

1:01

is, can you be self sovereign on

1:03

Bitcoin if you do not control a UTXO?

1:06

Now, Lynne responded to this on Twitter with a

1:08

bunch of her thoughts around it. So we decided

1:10

to get together and discuss this. Look

1:12

at all the different ways that Bitcoin scales, all

1:15

the different ways that you can hold Bitcoin, whether

1:18

that is a UTXO, whether the

1:20

Lightning Network, considerations for Fedi, Liquid,

1:23

all the different ways. So it's an expanding

1:25

topic. We're discussing it a lot. Really

1:27

appreciate Lynne coming into New York and discussing it with

1:30

us. So hopefully you're going to enjoy this. And

1:32

as I said, we're here in Nashville. Hopefully we're going

1:34

to see some of you down here at Bitcoin Park.

1:37

But if you do have any questions about this show

1:39

or anything else, please drop me an email. It's hello

1:41

at what Bitcoin did dot com. So

1:47

the Football Association governs football

1:49

in the UK, but there's regional, and they've now gone

1:51

to the council and said what you're doing is out

1:53

of order. It's

1:55

just people being

1:57

unnecessarily difficult because they don't like the new kid.

2:00

small town political corruption. What

2:02

do you know what it is to me it again, I want

2:04

to be careful what I say, don't ever get sued again. So

2:08

I'm going to be careful with my words, but

2:10

the people involved should be completely impartial.

2:14

And if they're not going to be impartial, they should at

2:16

least recognize there is a team here bringing hundreds of thousands

2:18

of investment in who are now supporting 25

2:21

girls teams who've taken over a lady scene, which is

2:23

top of the league, which has a men's team about

2:25

to do back to back promotions, has put Bedford on

2:27

the map and is bringing people external

2:30

from the town of country into the town to

2:32

spend money. To me, that's a

2:34

no brainer to support that. Yeah, but they're actually working

2:36

against it. People often

2:38

not everybody, but most people think in their own

2:40

kind of small little orbit. So they

2:42

think what is what is good for me specifically, rather

2:44

than thinking out multiple years and they also

2:46

don't necessarily see your vision for how big

2:48

you're going to get or they don't understand

2:51

the kind of workings. Yeah, but you do.

2:53

So you have kind of an information asymmetry

2:55

that they haven't seen yet. Well, that's actually

2:57

I actually took went to

2:59

see them and took my whole presentation. I said, this is

3:01

my plan. This is what I'm

3:04

going to deliver. I explained the conference that's

3:06

happening. G code, which you're coming to amazing.

3:08

I explained that I said, there's you know,

3:10

that's got a probably an economic inflow of Bedford of

3:12

maybe a couple of million pound. The

3:15

hotels will be booked. I told them all

3:17

of this and they're just apparently the mayor's

3:19

I don't care about Bitcoin. Okay, all right.

3:22

So yes, it's all fun and

3:24

games in Bedford. Sounds like

3:26

a little bit of stress. You know,

3:28

the shame of this is it hasn't all been documented

3:30

as a film because I know the amount saying that

3:33

from the start, we should have been filming everything. It's

3:35

hard, but there's been so much Lynn that's happened over

3:37

the two years. It's actually quite insane.

3:39

I can imagine. I mean, Danny's seen it's

3:41

like relentless stress, phone calls and

3:44

it's just because people it's almost

3:47

like Bitcoin, right? You know how people push

3:49

against Bitcoin? Yes. And they did

3:51

they're resistant to it. Yes. It's

3:54

the same. They're resistant to this. They don't

3:56

want the change. People don't like change. No,

3:58

no, no. It's a talent. the

4:00

local team. I

4:02

was texting their chairman yesterday winding him up. Honestly

4:06

he's just as much a troll in real

4:08

life as he is on the first day.

4:10

Those texts were hilarious. Two years I let

4:13

that guy off, two years of his stuff.

4:16

He's really upset with us because we put

4:18

two giant Scotland crossbow flags on our clubhouse

4:20

and you can see them from inside their

4:22

ground. Anyway, happy New Year, Lin, how are

4:24

you? You do, I'm great. Yeah, good Christmas,

4:26

good break? Yeah, good break and you're happy

4:28

back in New York. Yeah, ready for another crazy

4:30

year? Yeah, as much as I

4:32

can be. Yeah, it's been already,

4:35

what, what, in 10 days then? Yeah,

4:37

12. 12 days, it's already

4:39

a bit bad. Absolute madness. Thank

4:41

you, Gary Gensler. We

4:43

are going to talk to you about, a little bit

4:45

about scaling Bitcoin. Of course we're going to talk about

4:48

that. There's so many

4:50

questions I've got on that. You replied to, I think

4:52

as you replied to a tweet of mine or retweeted

4:54

and talked about it. But we definitely want to get

4:56

into that. But I just, I kind of want to

4:59

back up the step first. When

5:01

you think about Bitcoin

5:03

and the kind of the

5:05

end goal, do

5:08

you see hyper Bitcoinization as an end goal

5:10

or do you just see this as just

5:12

a very successful asset? Like where's your head

5:14

space for this? And do you put a

5:16

percentage chance on hyper Bitcoinization? I

5:19

think there's a range of outcomes. So

5:22

I don't have a firm view on the

5:24

very long term end game. Basically, money

5:27

is a competitive good that

5:29

scales with network effects. And it's

5:31

one of the things you really want to hold the second

5:33

best money. You generally want to gravity towards the first. In

5:36

historical periods where there's been two monies coexisting

5:38

for a long time, it's usually because one

5:40

money is not sufficient. So for example, gold

5:43

and silver coexisted because gold, even

5:45

one tiny gold coin is more than like a labor

5:47

would make in a day or a week maybe. And

5:49

so you'd have to have the smaller units.

5:53

And so there are certain contexts like that where it

5:55

can kind of reach its limitations. I think a big

5:57

thing will come down to how good are

6:00

governments at maintaining their own little

6:02

fiat bubble against the constant push

6:04

of Bitcoin. Like we see, for

6:06

example, developing countries that have inflation

6:09

problems, they have the constant pressure

6:11

of dollarization always knocking on their

6:13

door to push in. And people

6:16

there in those gray markets, they want dollars.

6:19

But they've been able to maintain their

6:21

monopolies anyway because of the technology that's

6:23

available. They can basically firewall their banks

6:26

and they can firewall their ports of

6:28

entry. Bitcoin and stablecoin start to pierce

6:30

into that. And so

6:32

you'd expect that over time, as liquidity and

6:34

acceptance and knowledge of these types

6:37

of technologies grow, particularly Bitcoin, it

6:39

can pierce into all these things. It's increasingly hard

6:41

to maintain any sort of currency

6:44

monopoly. But we still

6:46

don't know the extent that they'll be completely

6:48

dismantled from being able to do that or what timeline

6:50

if it does happen. So whether you

6:52

look at it as a very,

6:54

very large monetary asset globally,

6:57

or virtually the only one, I

7:00

don't really have a strong view. I think that's

7:02

all still quite a bit out. But I have

7:04

pretty high ambitions for what Bitcoin can do. And

7:06

how high is your conviction now? And mine

7:11

increased a lot this week. I

7:13

never thought the ETS would get over the

7:15

line. And funny enough, we interviewed Michael Sonershine

7:17

in this room. And yeah,

7:21

I'm very critical of grayscale, DCT and Genesis,

7:23

all of them. I'm critical of Barry, I'm

7:25

critical of Michael Sonershine. But at the same

7:27

time, I compliment

7:29

them with what they managed to do by suing the SEC.

7:31

I think it was very impressive. I agree. But

7:34

I never thought the you know, I don't care too

7:36

much about the ETS in one way. But there

7:39

are reasons I do care about them. But but

7:42

it has given me this like, I've leveled

7:44

up my conviction this

7:46

week, just because one of the reasons

7:48

is, yeah, not just that we have

7:50

these large institutions who are now sellers

7:53

of I say Bitcoin, but

7:57

yeah, but they're sellers of the Bitcoin

7:59

brand. Yes. When you

8:01

look at something like the Vanek advert, that

8:03

doesn't look like a Bitcoin company doing an

8:06

advert. That looks like a New

8:08

York advertising agency has

8:10

sat down and really come up with some high

8:12

quality. Sometimes

8:14

I feel a little bit embarrassed telling people I'm a Bitcoin or something.

8:17

They're like, oh, you're one of those. Like

8:19

CrossFit Vegan and Bitcoin, it was in that bucket of- You

8:22

don't want to fit in too. But

8:25

those ads suddenly make it feel less

8:28

embarrassing. Do you understand what I'm saying?

8:30

I give you me Franklin Templeton putting laser

8:32

eyes on their logo. It's

8:35

a 77 year old trillion dollar

8:37

asset manager putting laser eyes on their

8:39

main profile for at least a period

8:41

of time. It

8:44

partially legitimizes it. Over time it can

8:46

add liquidity. It can potentially

8:48

reduce the volatility a little bit because you

8:50

get that portfolio rebalance effect probably at scale.

8:55

It's natural that any asset of this size

8:57

and liquidity has an ETF. There

8:59

are triple short NASDAQ ETFs. There's an

9:01

ETF for anything you can think of,

9:03

including really bad ideas because

9:05

people either trade them or hold them. It's

9:08

natural that Bitcoin would be an ETF. It's

9:13

integrated into the system. Of

9:15

course, it's good to tell people if you can help it,

9:18

try to hold the actual thing. If

9:20

you're locked into a brokerage or an

9:23

RIA or your IRA and you want

9:25

price exposure, this is a useful vehicle.

9:29

I think it's more just like it gives you some

9:31

legal cover. One thing that

9:34

the lawsuit showed was that one

9:36

is the government's not a monolith. If

9:38

you look at the SEC, for example, there's

9:40

already been division in the SEC between Gary

9:43

and Piers. This

9:46

vote was like three to two on whether

9:49

or not they approve it. He

9:51

was a decided vote. Yeah, he went in

9:53

approved. There were two more

9:55

against it. It shows there's

9:57

rule of law in the US to a reasonable degree, not

9:59

approved. I would argue as we've seen with

10:01

the font, for example, that's kind of an area where

10:03

it's not working out yet. But for the most part,

10:06

we have rule of law, or

10:08

at least there's very strong avenues to at least try

10:10

to enforce rule of law. If

10:12

you're well capitalized and you're on

10:14

just the right side of how the law is written in truth

10:16

and all that, you have a pretty good shot. We

10:19

saw that back in the 1990s, crypto wars. Back

10:23

then, crypto didn't mean cryptocurrency, it meant

10:25

cryptography. When they

10:27

were challenging the right to be able

10:29

to create open source cryptographic code and

10:31

then to share around the world, the

10:34

US government challenged that. But

10:36

by putting it in books and

10:38

by relying on constitutional law, they

10:40

basically, David B. Goliath. This

10:43

was like a case of not that consequential,

10:45

something like that, because that kind of set

10:48

the foundation for the internet and e-commerce.

10:50

But this was like a little watershed moment of

10:53

10 years of holding back

10:55

the ETF and just kind of proving that,

10:57

no, your arguments are arbitrary and capricious. They're

11:00

not based on reasonable things. And so

11:02

the SEC lost. And there's other things

11:04

they could lose in the future that

11:07

the Treasury could lose in court. I

11:10

think probably some of the challenges are ahead in

11:12

the next decade. It's interesting, because I can't think

11:14

of a single instance, it probably has happened, but

11:17

it doesn't feel like a thing that happens in the UK where people

11:19

or companies sue government bodies.

11:22

I just don't know. Yeah. I

11:24

just don't think of it. Maybe

11:27

it has happened, but I don't know, we're just

11:29

different. But even so, I've

11:32

just got this much higher conviction now, because

11:34

I just believe that Bitcoin is going to

11:36

be something that's going to be part of

11:38

people's portfolios, part of their mix. Still

11:41

a few more jumps, like Vanguard, is

11:43

that expected? Or is that, are they

11:45

pushing against the river? They

11:47

and a lot of their investors, I

11:50

don't think they have a gold ETF either. I think

11:52

they allow them on their platform, but they don't offer

11:54

one, even though they offer an ETF for almost everything.

11:57

So they're not really a hard... hard

12:00

money. They like stocks, bonds,

12:02

and cash basically. It's

12:04

very kind of traditional thinking. It's

12:07

funny because they're named Vanguard. They disrupted an industry

12:09

at their time. They basically they put a spike

12:12

through the kind of the policy

12:14

of really high fees

12:16

for managing equities and not really outperforming.

12:19

They did all that, but then the problem is they kind of

12:22

became the market. We see that

12:24

a lot recently. For example, Apple was

12:26

disruptive and they have the whole kind of famous 1984 commercial.

12:29

Now they're trying to maintain monopoly control over

12:32

their app store and say, no, you can't

12:34

do that zap

12:37

tipping and noster in our

12:39

ecosystem. They're kind of like anti-innovation now

12:41

in a way because they're

12:43

the incumbents. We see Vanguard has done

12:46

the same thing. They became the market.

12:48

Passive indexing is everywhere now. They're

12:50

one of the largest asset managers in

12:52

the world. They're just

12:55

like, no, we don't want to change

12:57

anything. They literally allow triple leverage short

13:00

NASDAQ ETFs. They allow the

13:02

crazy decaying volatility ETFs that

13:04

you're really only supposed to

13:06

hold for days if

13:09

you're trying to hedge something. All sorts of

13:11

crazy things, but no, Bitcoin is the one

13:13

thing that's too volatile and too dangerous for

13:15

our client. That's like in

13:17

the UK at the moment. You have to

13:19

now be a credited investor to buy

13:22

Bitcoin to complete all the

13:24

questionnaire, which wasn't just what's

13:26

your income and what value of assets

13:28

you have. There's also a questionnaire about

13:30

Bitcoin and crypto. They'll ask you questions

13:32

as if you understood it. We

13:36

have that. We also have most of the banks who want to let you buy

13:38

it. All this is

13:40

downstream from government regulation. It's not the

13:42

banks that are arbitrarily against

13:44

Bitcoin. It's the surveillance

13:47

tracking laws that the surveillance they pushed onto the

13:50

banks to do. There's

13:52

too much risk for the banks, but

13:55

I can download 50 betting apps, open up

13:57

accounts, and gamble away everything I have on my account.

14:00

sports it I mean it to me it is

14:03

just stupid but yeah this is

14:06

where we are I also

14:08

feel they Lynn over the

14:10

last year we

14:12

are we're winning the war against

14:15

FUD as well and a couple of

14:17

things that really stood out in the

14:19

mining right the mining well did you

14:21

see the new scientist stuff I

14:23

don't think I saw that one so the

14:26

guy from new scientist did you follow this

14:28

no the guy from new scientist they wrote

14:30

an anti Bitcoin you can probably find it

14:32

an anti Bitcoin article and they

14:35

got community noted I already see this yeah

14:37

but also did you find out they researched

14:39

the guy who did it predator did a

14:41

whole deep dive in

14:43

him this is a guy who held Bitcoin he's

14:45

tracked the wallet and the guys received Bitcoin over

14:47

time he sold his Bitcoin and

14:49

he thinks it might be like the saltiness in there

14:52

yeah but also we had a

14:55

senator Warren getting community noted about everything

14:57

this week we're

14:59

starting to see more positive articles I actually

15:03

think the community notes have been a really positive

15:05

thing you see what new scientists did when they

15:07

get got community noted they reposted it they just

15:09

deleted the tweet and repost it with like slightly

15:11

different wording rather than own up to the fact

15:13

they're just lying they've reposted three times now they

15:16

but I feel like the

15:19

way media is working the moment the

15:21

way to it is working we are

15:23

now getting to disseminate accurate information about

15:25

Bitcoin and I feel like

15:28

the bias to naturally dislike Bitcoin

15:30

is starting to evaporate

15:32

I agree I think it's gonna still

15:34

gonna take more time for the bigger

15:36

thing but basically my truth's

15:38

on your side and these arguments happen

15:41

you chip away over time so for example for years and

15:43

years and years it was like Bitcoin mining's

15:45

baddest environment it consumes as much energy as

15:47

a small country and just over

15:49

time as more people's give these detailed

15:52

reports or really good interviews or you

15:54

get basically people talking about the nuance

15:56

of what happens there where you talk

15:58

about you know Bitcoin being an

16:00

anchor tenant for bringing on new electricity

16:03

in Africa or something or Bitcoin for

16:05

grid stabilization. There's only so much

16:07

you can keep throwing at it until eventually you

16:09

change minds little by little by little. It was

16:11

a couple of years ago I had a debate

16:13

with the economist on, I

16:15

forget what platform, I think it was the economist.

16:17

I remember it. Yeah. And they

16:19

actually did a poll for the audience before and

16:22

after, like live. And

16:24

it shifted in my favor, not necessarily

16:26

because I'm a good debater, I actually

16:28

don't do that many debates because the

16:31

subject matter just lends itself toward if you're

16:33

following, if you're not an incompetent debater, you

16:36

can present why that person

16:38

is like being disingenuous or just wrong. And

16:40

so that was like one little example, but

16:43

that's happened a thousand times for different people

16:45

and reading different things. And

16:47

so it's just a long multi-year kind of

16:49

educational grind to get people to change your

16:51

view, especially because there's always friction once you

16:54

kind of establish a position, especially

16:56

if you said the position publicly, people get

16:58

locked into that position. And so

17:00

it just takes six times. It takes chipping away

17:03

until it kind of becomes untenable to hold position

17:05

that was clearly incorrect. Well,

17:07

I mean, people can't, it's becoming

17:09

harder and harder for people to lie. Yeah.

17:14

Or flat out misreport things.

17:16

Yeah. I mean, Ian, but did

17:18

you read Ian Burrell's article? Because we were with him in Africa.

17:20

I did. Yeah. Yeah.

17:22

That's a great article. He was out there as

17:25

a skeptic. Yeah. Great guy, but he

17:27

came out very skeptically. But

17:29

not just skeptic, also a little

17:31

bit disinterested. And

17:34

I think what happened was he spent time with us.

17:38

He spent

17:40

time seeing the projects and he realized like

17:42

everything he thought about Bitcoin was probably

17:45

wrong. And he saw the

17:47

positive impact it was having. It was one

17:49

really special moment when we were in Malawi.

17:51

So we've been to visit the site, Eric

17:53

Hursman's site there. And then that

17:55

evening we were having dinner and it was like in this

17:58

big field. basically

18:00

no electricity and the vast majority of the

18:02

area were in near Melange. And

18:04

so you were like looked out and it was

18:06

just darkness everywhere apart from the foothills where this

18:09

tiny little village was the only thing lit up

18:11

and it's like only because of Bitcoin mining as

18:13

possible. It was like a really special trip. Yeah.

18:16

You've met my son, Connor, haven't you? Yes. Yeah.

18:20

He's moving out there on Sunday. Really? Well, to

18:22

Kenya. He's going to work for Gridless. Wow. Yeah.

18:25

Nice. Yeah. So

18:28

that's... It is really... It's

18:31

important. What's really interesting being out there and

18:33

seeing it, for

18:35

me it almost feels like halfway

18:37

between a business and an NGO

18:40

in that it is a commercial business. They

18:42

are looking to generate a profit

18:44

and grow their business, but it's not

18:47

like extreme capitalism. They know they're

18:49

delivering a public good and they're fully conscious

18:51

and aware of it. But

18:54

actually going out there and seeing these sides.

18:57

It is kind of... Everything

19:02

you're told becomes real. So you hear about it, but then

19:04

we actually met the guy in the village. We met the

19:06

chief of the village and he said to us, he said,

19:08

oh, my wife cooks food and we now keep it in

19:10

the fridge and she can sell it. We

19:13

can sell cold cans of Coke. You hear it.

19:15

You hear this. But they actually do

19:17

it. By the way, did you hear the story about the football?

19:20

Did you read it in Burrells? I read the story, yeah. Was

19:22

it in that article? He was saying... This

19:24

is the one that made me laugh most of all. This

19:27

woman said all the men used to

19:29

go and meet up and watch the football. They

19:32

don't know if they're cheating on them. Now they have to

19:34

stay home and watch the football. But

19:36

no, I mean, look, how

19:39

can you argue against these kind of projects? Exactly.

19:41

Yeah. And one of the advantages they

19:44

have from doing that good work is they get a lot

19:46

of people that want to go work with them, I guess.

19:48

I don't know about them specifically, but in general, when you

19:50

do that type of work, you get really energized people that

19:52

want to come and help you and give

19:54

you free advertising as you talk about what you're doing. And

19:57

so even though it might be harder to make a profit, I

19:59

don't know. I haven't dig into economics, obviously, but

20:01

even if it's hard to make a profit doing

20:04

that, there are other tailwinds that at least come

20:06

and fill some of that gap. Just

20:08

because it's such important work and everyone wants it

20:10

to succeed. And it's

20:13

really interesting seeing because I've been writing, I wrote

20:16

that Bitcoin energy article, like long form a

20:18

while ago, and I updated every year or

20:20

two, just because new numbers come in,

20:22

and new case studies come in, and I kind of

20:24

want to keep the article fresh. And it's

20:26

interesting, as they go and update, I see some of the things

20:28

that were written about in the first edition

20:30

of it start to materialize. So in

20:33

the beginning, I'm quoting like Ross Stevens

20:35

shareholder letter from 2020 talking about a

20:38

river hydro in Africa powering Bitcoin. And then

20:40

you fast forward two years, and it's like

20:42

gridless. I got to actually say, okay, well,

20:46

it's actually going from conceptual to in

20:48

practice and not tiny, but starting to

20:50

get at scale. And so it's kind

20:53

of, so far, all

20:55

the updates of that article have been positive,

20:57

basically, it's going in the direction of how

20:59

things were conceptualized by many people.

21:01

When did you last update? Was it due

21:03

now? Probably a year ago. Oh, you're good.

21:05

Yeah. You need

21:07

to do it again. Probably again, I might do this might be

21:09

one of those two year gaps, just because I've been so busy.

21:12

I didn't I actually I didn't updated version for

21:14

broken money. Okay, one of the chapters is basically

21:16

that article, but I had to tailor it to

21:18

the book. So that was kind of like this

21:21

year's update is the book version. I mean, I

21:23

think that's kind of cheating, but we'll let you

21:25

get away with having

21:28

the book update. By the way, the coffee

21:30

is gonna be here in seven minutes. I need this

21:32

coffee. The problem with working out here in pub here

21:34

is great studio. But is we

21:36

go to the pub every day after we're

21:38

finished. I can imagine we do that. No, I

21:40

have it. It's not always true. No, always true.

21:42

Here you really above a pub. Yeah.

21:45

So I mean, look, all this is really leading to the

21:47

main thing I wanted to talk to you about the thing

21:49

I thinking about a lot is now

21:53

scaling a Bitcoin and how people use Bitcoin.

21:57

Because we clearly have a I

22:01

don't want to say an issue with the base chain because

22:03

this is the way it should scale. But

22:05

we are at that crossroads now with the base chain

22:07

where it's getting expensive to use. I

22:09

did a transaction the other day where my fee was $64. I

22:12

was consolidating UTXOs, but it was $64. I

22:15

had to do another one, which was like $12. It's

22:20

fine when you're moving. What's

22:23

a fair fee? What, 1%? So if

22:25

you're doing $1,000 and paying $10, it's kind of

22:27

okay. If you're moving $100, you don't want

22:29

to pay $10. You don't want to pay $10. Yet

22:33

a lot of work has been done to educate people

22:35

about the base chain, using the base chain. And

22:38

probably some people won't be

22:40

or shouldn't be using that. I've also

22:43

had a question

22:45

I keep asking people. I still don't

22:47

think we've had a good answer for. I

22:50

think because there's not an answer to it, I think

22:52

self sovereignty doesn't scale. I've

22:55

asked a lot of people this question. I said,

22:57

can you be self sovereign if you don't own

22:59

a UTXO? I've had

23:01

some wishy washy answers, some attempts at answers,

23:04

but no, yes, this is how you do

23:06

it. And so

23:10

if that's the case for the vast majority of

23:12

people, not your keys, not your Bitcoin is not

23:14

really going to be true. So

23:18

I'm thinking a lot about this and I've put it out

23:20

on Twitter, you've replied. So I kind of want to get

23:22

into where your thoughts are with

23:24

this, especially as you're also an investor in

23:26

Fedi. So you understand that. And how

23:28

much are you thinking about all of this scaling?

23:30

I think it was scaling a lot. When

23:35

I got into Bitcoin, I had also been

23:38

watching it, studying it for a while. So I went

23:40

through a phase where I was interested but skeptical to

23:43

interested and convicted. That was the transition

23:45

I went through. So

23:48

what I find interesting is that a lot

23:50

of people are kind of almost come off as constantly

23:52

surprised by the scaling challenges, even though they were laid

23:54

out in 2009, 2010. If

23:57

you look at Sosu's original emails. even

24:00

before Bitcoin was launched on the mailing list,

24:02

people were challenging the scaling. They were like,

24:04

well, how is this going to scale? Or

24:07

how Cine was talking about Bitcoin banks in 2010.

24:11

And so this has been, there's actually an old

24:13

joke that basically like any kind of thing you think

24:15

about Bitcoin, it's all been discussed on Bitcoin talk in

24:17

the first couple years. And this is just another one

24:19

of those things that's been

24:21

discussed since like the literally pre-inception

24:24

of the chain. And

24:27

so for me, it's when I

24:29

got in, I had the benefit, I know

24:31

the downside is you don't get in it

24:33

like $10 Bitcoin. But the benefit is

24:35

you have years of history of

24:38

kind of people discussing this and seeing how

24:40

it's work and kind of understanding

24:42

all the pros and cons of different approaches. So for

24:44

me, it was understood from the beginning that it's going

24:46

to scale in layers. And

24:49

also when I look at the existing financial system,

24:51

we see it scale in layers. So for example,

24:53

there's Fedwire, it's the

24:55

main, it's the biggest

24:57

kind of US settlement system that's operated by

24:59

the Fed. They settle one quadrillion

25:01

dollars a year, so $1,000 trillion a year. And

25:06

they do it with about as many transactions as Bitcoin does.

25:09

So in a given year, they do 200 million

25:12

transactions, average of 5 million

25:14

each. And so you get a

25:16

quadrillion dollars in gross settlement, which sounds like a

25:18

cartoonish number. What

25:20

are they settling? What kind of transactions?

25:23

Basically a lot of bank stuff. Basically,

25:26

when banks are settling between each

25:28

other, it's going through Fedwire essentially.

25:30

So it's one of the main clearing mechanisms in

25:33

the US. It's not the only one, but

25:35

it's the biggest one. And so a lot of the things

25:37

that we think of is like when we make a fiat

25:39

payment, it's not really final, final. It's

25:43

basically the banks have kind of agreed and then

25:45

they settle on Fedwire. And that's

25:47

getting updated over time with FedNow and things like that.

25:50

But basically, it's like the underlying

25:52

base chain. And Bitcoin just kind of

25:54

takes- Just interrupt there. Sorry, just very quickly.

25:56

There's no transaction fee for that in that scenario.

25:59

That system wouldn't help. the transaction fee for

26:01

banks to settle is just a job that

26:03

said does on behalf of the banks or

26:06

is a I believe so if they're the

26:08

transaction fee be small fee or it because

26:10

it's centralize as the yang centralization gives you

26:12

some benefits like efficiency sake of in that

26:14

case it's like this monopolies centralize settlements system

26:16

feel as if bitcoin is an open source

26:19

global one and such also needs a sick

26:21

and yes and for security yes yes and

26:23

so when i when i think about with

26:25

you mentioned that transaction our expenses and you

26:27

re reference like ten dollars for example. Whereas

26:30

you know when I send wires to

26:32

Egypt for example the beach only costs

26:34

more than ten dollars. Have mercy for

26:36

want them with Aids day or tickets

26:38

are to delay the center of options

26:40

the longer I am blau to kill

26:42

that. That said, maybe they'll give me

26:45

a discount if I want to. Since

26:47

action the day I may be paying

26:49

thirty dollars for five dollars and still

26:51

going through centralized systems is is kind

26:53

of different. Centralized systems do rather him

26:55

she gets if I wanted. I sent

26:57

a package who was like signing contracts

26:59

cross the ocean. Ah that took

27:01

of is something like a hundred dollars.

27:03

ah to send those documents. Arms.

27:06

And Nukes are one of them

27:08

there within the week. Ah, cross

27:11

the Atlantic ocean. sign documents or

27:13

dollars your on. And so

27:15

when you're here sending things of value

27:17

especially globally and especially securely, it's actually

27:19

pretty census. Our expectations are we're so

27:21

used to these. a clinic quick seats

27:24

settlements which are just layers on top

27:26

of the systems and when we compare

27:28

that to pick. when we think Bitcoin

27:30

looks expensive but when you compare Bitcoin

27:32

to Us shipping goal globally or Cm

27:34

documents globe was actually really cheap and

27:37

like as what you know this is

27:39

a gold coins. To. One else

27:41

gold coins didn't ruin real good points. you

27:43

can tell because of the weight. yes. But

27:45

the reason I I can a point

27:47

that out so that that's one else gold

27:50

coin. How did you just magic without a

27:52

magician who doesn't always have club? Amazing! So

27:54

this is one of those costs. Are

27:57

so this is. Start. Two thousand dollars is

27:59

moment when. When I was gold coin. That.

28:01

In this one's on Me this is all of

28:03

the me. This is a nineteen seventy nine South

28:05

African gold coin. I was one I was one

28:07

near as one assembly Alex brand new doesn't it

28:09

is that some of the that's why it's gold.

28:11

That's the point he gone. And.

28:15

The point of that? So that. If

28:17

you buy something like that, you pay something

28:19

like a five percent markup. To

28:22

the actual gold price and that mark

28:24

up for two thousand dollar gold coin

28:26

is thousand dollars. In. A could

28:28

be a D R Depends we buy it from

28:30

but it's it's You know it's A it's over

28:33

time but you're paying a mark up and if

28:35

you look at what is the mark upon a

28:37

really big bar, it'll be little smaller species. So

28:39

one gram gold coins and they have like an

28:41

unseemly to fifty percent markup. So.

28:43

The if you're getting say hundred articles in

28:46

it's you pay like one hundred fifty hours

28:48

which is really silly. Yes a part of

28:50

what you're paying for is the verification to

28:52

that's actually gold. Rights. Yet so

28:55

if you have a big gold bar. You

28:57

to still with tungsten yeah and does

28:59

have a centimeter gold around it which

29:01

has happened a lot has happened a

29:03

lot smaller you go the more surface

29:05

area there is to mass and therefore

29:07

it becomes less likely less economical to

29:10

cheat yes I so the probability of

29:12

best how little tiny since if silver

29:14

function and is exceedingly low via be

29:16

compared to because it's not economical to

29:18

do that a scale of you and

29:20

enter Graeme coin is what an impossible

29:22

via arms because that knew about someone

29:24

else so there's there's very little room

29:26

to mess. Around the servicers pre significance

29:28

of from the combination of the surface

29:31

and the weights. You. Can be ninety

29:33

nine point something? Percent sure that as actually

29:35

gold and but the point is that com

29:37

that's a pretty expensive verification process. you know?

29:39

basically all the surface stuff had to kind

29:41

of prove it comes to be. You know,

29:43

if you want to buy that yeah to

29:45

go to Yard Pal, the gas and time

29:47

and mileage to go to a coin shopping

29:49

get. if we give a shit you may

29:51

cost twenty dollars and shirts shipping feet of

29:53

couple of them and so. And that's funny

29:55

me if I want to send that globally

29:57

to someone. You. know in the post It's

30:00

going to like, you know, if I especially want it there in a couple of days,

30:02

cost $100. So what

30:04

if you owed me $1,000 now, you're not going to snap

30:06

it. How do I do it? And so if you were

30:08

trying to, if you were saving a gold and you wanted

30:10

to stack gold, right, anything

30:12

short of like a $2,000 gold

30:14

coin is, give you

30:17

a silly markup, right? The smaller you go, the

30:19

bigger the markup is, it doesn't make sense to

30:21

stack grams of gold and pay 50% markup

30:23

every time. And so all of our, all of

30:26

our existing ways to kind of hold bare

30:28

ass and money is actually pretty expensive.

30:30

And Bitcoin is cheaper than a lot of them. This

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swan.com. You just missed some magic. Mid

33:44

conversation, Ninja suddenly went, gold coin.

33:48

But it's an actual gold coin. Where

33:50

do you feel this? What would you say that

33:52

would cost? Do you know? I have no idea. What would

33:54

you imagine? I guess. I'm

33:56

going to do this myself, so shoot, $1,000. $2,000. Yeah,

34:00

I've never held a gold coin. So that's an ounce. If

34:02

it was a half ounce gold coin, which do exist, it'd

34:05

be a thousand. But this is

34:07

the first time I've ever actually held a gold coin like this. And

34:10

I'm surprised by the weight of it. I know it shouldn't be.

34:13

Have you ever interviewed Peter Schiff? Yeah,

34:15

a couple of times. And he didn't have

34:17

a gold coin to... I've only done

34:19

it in person once with in Pomp Studio with him. Feel

34:21

this. Thank you. Are these both country-owned?

34:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, wow, they did.

34:27

Thanks, Luke. But

34:29

just wandering around with a

34:32

$2,000 gold coin. That

34:36

was particularly impressive. Were

34:38

you prepared for that? You're like, I've got to bring a

34:40

gold coin into this. Sometimes they have one of my purse.

34:42

Sometimes they don't. Crews around.

34:45

Yeah, it's not African. So

34:48

the point is, to go back to your

34:50

question around self-sovereignty. Yes.

34:54

So the thing I replied to on

34:56

Twitter that day was, self-sovereignty

34:58

is a platonic ideal. So

35:00

if people don't know the platonic ideal jargon,

35:02

it's basically something that's the ideal version of

35:04

something that doesn't necessarily exist in nature. So

35:07

classic examples is a perfect circle. Yes. We

35:09

know what a perfect circle is. It's a

35:11

geometric concept. But there's actually

35:13

no perfect circles in nature. Even our machinery,

35:15

we can't make an actual perfect circle. We

35:17

can get really close. Or a perfectly straight

35:19

line, for example. So we know the conception

35:21

of what a circle is, they don't exactly

35:24

actually exist. So when you think of self-sovereignty,

35:27

you could actually argue that nobody's self-sovereignty if

35:29

you define it as strictly as possible, which

35:31

is you get Bitcoin, you run

35:33

the node, you verify it, you've audited every

35:35

line of code in the node you're running,

35:38

including every line of every library that that

35:40

code uses, which nobody's done. I

35:43

don't think Satoshi's not done that. So

35:45

a certain amount of trust. Yeah. So

35:48

you're always trusting something. You

35:50

could be a very highly machined circle, but

35:52

you're still not perfect. You can have practical,

35:55

I would call it practical self-sovereignty. But even

35:57

then, we live in a world where there is

35:59

no perfect circle. There have been bugs on

36:01

Bitcoin. And

36:03

so far, it's navigated through those, and there's

36:05

fallback methods and things like that. But

36:08

basically, everybody's doing some of your trust. And so the

36:10

question is, how much are you trusting? And

36:13

of course, there are pretty big cutoff points. So

36:15

there's a spectrum of trust, but then there's kind of

36:18

parts where you fall off pretty significantly. So if you're

36:20

not holding your keys on chain, that's a pretty big

36:22

stepwise degradation in terms of

36:25

self-sabernity. There

36:27

are scaling solutions that you

36:29

start giving up some degree

36:31

of sovereignty, but you still have some aspect

36:33

of it. And then there's other ones where

36:36

you diffuse your risk so much

36:39

that you

36:41

don't really have self-s

36:43

sovereignty, but you're still much step up

36:45

compared to any other kind of existing

36:47

systems you can work with anyway. Which

36:49

you're very keen on diffusing risk on.

36:52

Yes. Basically, you want to

36:54

get as many people that want to have

36:56

their own money privately to

37:00

be able to do it effectively. And to

37:02

say, well, here's a spectrum that you can

37:04

choose from, and different solutions make sense for

37:07

different people. There's also, when you talk about

37:09

self-s sovereignty, another thing to think of is,

37:11

what are you trying, what specifically are you

37:13

trying to accomplish with it? Right? So

37:16

for example, I could have come here wearing a bulletproof vest.

37:20

I could just wear one all the time, because

37:22

it's safer. Why wouldn't I always wear a bulletproof

37:24

vest? Especially if you're walking around with gold coins.

37:26

Yeah, there you go. But

37:30

I don't, because it's expensive. I

37:34

don't like how it looks. It's uncomfortable. I've

37:36

actually worn them, but I imagine they're pretty heavy.

37:38

Tatum walks around when we're not on the other side. Yeah,

37:41

so other than Tatum, no one really does this. And

37:43

there's a reason for it, which is we don't

37:45

always expect an adversarial environment. If

37:47

I was a journalist on a war zone, I'd

37:49

have a bulletproof vest on. It'd be more of

37:52

a context. Similarly,

37:54

it's not exactly safe to walk around with

37:56

a gold coin, or you can walk around

37:58

a couple hundred Dollars in your. In your wallet

38:00

or your purse. And

38:02

you're kind of and only taking on some the

38:04

your frisk for the convenience of just. Having

38:07

things on your person arms and I

38:09

kind of you. Similarly, we talk about

38:11

scaling which is not eaten is not

38:14

to be a billion people that are

38:16

thinking i have to protect every Sat

38:18

as though my life depended on it

38:21

saying okay so for savings offices as

38:23

a higher threshold for how much you

38:25

want to protect it versus working capital

38:27

and there's different consequences for defense were

38:30

to block it is a rugs so

38:32

forgive you get your life saving scrubbed.

38:34

That's catastrophic since if you're using a

38:37

custodial. Payment systems and you get payment

38:39

blocked but you have options that you

38:41

can then fall back to self crossing

38:43

route around that you know you've only

38:46

put you've you've inconvenience yourself, you've you

38:48

know and most you could get working

38:50

capital rug arm but it's not catastrophic

38:52

and so planning everything around I can

38:55

never get a Sat blocked I can

38:57

never get to Sat. Robbed is similar

38:59

to. You. Know kind of wearing a bulletproof

39:01

vests all the time which is a some power users

39:03

might actually want to do that discuss. Why?

39:06

Not as is it's if you set

39:08

it up so that it's is not

39:10

cost us is not cause granted to

39:12

you he and his of the you

39:14

want to do you can but i

39:16

think really point is emphasize optionality yes

39:18

that that people whenever they face environment

39:20

where their printer bears you know kind

39:22

of I'm. Options are

39:24

pressured. They have options of fall

39:26

back to maybe less convenient, maybe

39:28

more expenses. whole thing out to

39:30

intervene your to expenses due to

39:32

ongoing good engineering and and stealing

39:34

to but as he can fall

39:36

back to these less trusted solutions

39:38

at least as deep as they

39:40

need to to to get around

39:42

whatever blockages they're facing. Yeah, I.

39:45

Wanted a challenge is going to

39:47

be is education's with this because.

39:50

Just. teach and some a by seems quite

39:52

simple or a custodial lightnings crazy and i'm

39:54

often of the first time i saw some

39:56

a bitcoin is i just get them soundly

39:58

one is a subtle I've already got

40:01

a bunch of stats in there because I seem to keep

40:03

getting them when I post something on Nostar

40:05

and so I get was down. I said I send

40:07

them $10 a Bitcoin. I explain it to them But

40:11

I know there's a there's a like a as

40:13

a big learning journey from them from that point

40:15

because humans have to go backwards Explain the base

40:17

and like they have to go figure that out

40:22

We are going to be heading into a world where people have

40:24

to think about Are

40:26

they gonna be a UTXO person some you likely will

40:28

be I likely will be done it will we've gone

40:30

in early enough? That we

40:32

can hold UTXOs They're

40:35

gonna be some people who can't hold UTXOs

40:37

just because they're not competent enough like

40:40

my father They're gonna be

40:42

some people who can't hold UTXOs because they

40:45

are in a developing country and it's too expensive They're

40:48

gonna be some people are gonna be part of a FEDI Sorry

40:51

part of a FEDI mint. They're gonna be some people gonna have Custodial

40:54

line there's so many different solutions and

40:58

For me that is it's almost

41:00

bothering me. It's almost like

41:02

the the education of onboarding people Is

41:06

now decentralized because there's so

41:08

many people doing it who have different preferences different

41:12

Different journeys they've got to to the

41:14

point of providing that education. So I'm I'm

41:17

always lost even explaining it right now Do

41:19

you live I'm always lost. What is

41:21

the right thing? I

41:23

think you actually can be a big part of it

41:25

So in order to get people to switch you

41:28

generally need like an Apple like you ask Which

41:30

of course is easy to do with custodial the non

41:32

custodial. That's always that's kind of the that's

41:35

the temptation. That's the challenge. Yeah It's

41:38

also one of those things where people are

41:40

more incentivized when they specifically have a problem

41:42

Yeah, so for example, if your payments were

41:44

blocked, you now have an incentive whereas if

41:46

your payments are not blocked You're

41:48

currently what's what's the point? It's a Bitcoin thing, right?

41:51

Or if you're an American you have access to dollars

41:53

and you can also reinvest your dollars in best be

41:55

500 So you're not worried about even the basement of

41:57

the dollar really? You're currently why?

42:00

While you're wise between some fruit and

42:02

I can do I can disinvesting sp

42:04

five hundred and whereas me look around

42:06

the world of I all don't have

42:08

that option right? And so. When

42:11

people face blockages when they say sasser

42:13

inflation you know it's not surprising that

42:16

he look at say the Chino is

42:18

adoption Dax it's to lily six hundred

42:20

twenty countries are developing. Deserve.

42:22

Their deletes nilly the sweet spot as

42:24

countries that are pretty tech savvy but

42:27

everly inflationary money on and so for

42:29

example Nigeria system as a good idea

42:31

Diego and so they feel for three

42:33

years almost there central bank be and

42:36

banks from sending money to exchanges, crypto

42:38

changes and yet they were like ranked

42:40

number two inches of adoption and a

42:42

specific we're number one in terms of

42:44

like peer to peer volume because that's

42:47

how they were rallying around things as

42:49

a when you're facing you know, fifteen

42:51

percent inflation, your. Fears to year to

42:53

year. You learn pretty quick I

42:55

would say. Anyone who can drive a car. Can.

42:58

Operate declined illness and asymptotically, I just eat.

43:00

you learn and he and you know how

43:02

to do it. Whereas if you don't have

43:04

a need you eat it seems Burgess and

43:07

Ceo as as it to. I think that's.

43:09

That's. One thing the other party just economic

43:12

crisis. Like you said, if you've a hundred

43:14

hours of bitcoin providence make sense to pull

43:16

that on the the chain because you're you're

43:18

fees are going to be burdensome especially when

43:20

he having to the future. so we pull

43:23

out of the chains and in the future

43:25

caesar more expenses. Especially

43:27

the raising kind of faster than the value

43:29

that the coins or you could get the

43:32

easiest suck at me. Fees could spike to

43:34

thirty dollars com and you you have a

43:36

how are you check so it's kind of

43:38

blocked know arm and. So people have to

43:41

kind of use that responsibly. And

43:44

I think that you know lighting can stay on

43:46

the sense that. You know if you

43:48

want, if your power use any one is

43:50

a fully non custodial you can and in

43:52

a one on train taunting transaction canal give

43:54

you access to multiple payments for stealing on

43:56

a per person basis. You know doesn't scale

43:58

honey people the crisis it and then there's

44:00

other things like please add Fed Mans and

44:03

other technologies will see what are the layers

44:05

com and we I'm interested in Covenant for

44:07

example. Ah, we seem to sell Miss on

44:09

the Mercury Lair. There is other things that

44:11

can scale as well. We can see what

44:13

catches on. So if you think long term

44:15

about the base change and it becomes more

44:17

of a settlement, laugh. At

44:20

county seat differing from something like

44:22

said mount in that said now it's

44:24

up to Maine the bank settling but

44:27

this this buddhist be. Pretty. Just

44:29

be the people who can afford to settle so

44:31

he could be bitcoin banks. It could be. Ah,

44:34

Blocks institutions it could be which was

44:36

like ourselves if we we have is is

44:38

that what were you see it as do

44:41

you think he just in some ways ah.

44:44

Like the transactions grow with the network

44:46

in that it's over Savages Quincy pricing.

44:48

More more people out that that's probably

44:51

the trend. A see a new assuming

44:53

there's no par for disclosing Korea assuming

44:55

arms. We'll see what happens with things

44:57

like covenants. They can allow people to

44:59

share. You just shows more efficiently than

45:01

they can. Now are more tries to

45:03

say more trusted sleep than what should

45:06

be dug into. The only moderately me

45:08

I'm ah, you know there There's there

45:10

are some the simpler types of soft

45:12

forks the can be done via. So

45:15

I I've I've dug into it to

45:17

reasonable degree. I'd like to see more

45:19

designs showing what they would do with

45:21

covenants rather than just couldn't beat your

45:23

were covenant proposals to do is even

45:25

the covenant proposals. Syria's agree on which

45:27

ones to do here. I'm sorry to

45:29

see once is kind of more consensus

45:32

forming but I'm following as much as

45:34

I can because it's important year when

45:36

you're when you're projecting our long term

45:38

is important to kind of monitor developments

45:40

that that happen because John was skeptical

45:42

of it wasn't me and Juri Imo

45:44

was optimistic. And we got you know go

45:46

next week. Anything that can be big part the

45:48

conversation then am I like a covenant that in

45:50

interesting by think john skeptical because nothing's really them

45:53

bail out yet so it's like a cool idea.

45:55

it's original skepticism? yeah yeah what do you think

45:57

about the say lightning at the moment because. I

46:01

strongly lightning in that it

46:03

feels like it's never delivered

46:06

from the promise appointed should

46:08

be. It feels like there's

46:10

a lot of complaints with

46:12

regards to compatibility between different

46:14

implementations. The it

46:17

feels like perhaps. People

46:20

are continues work and it because.

46:23

It's was like us on costs and I continued

46:25

was a cast they have worked on. It's whereas

46:27

the. He feels like some us

46:29

I was get the feeling for some people as like

46:31

i yeah that that might mean has already what are

46:34

we should have done that we should probably drop. I

46:36

just get like really mixed signals on s passing. I

46:38

love Custodial. I think I saw this it was his

46:40

Berlin is that them as was is going to get

46:42

robbed Them. Like

46:44

my well as though she is obviously stop offering

46:46

us and most likely you national rug while a

46:49

it might be though because I think they're probably

46:51

going to end up just came by seeing of

46:53

room. For the summer, Rug

46:55

Buddies a break. Regulatory requirements. I

46:58

would consider a better of because if he

47:00

bought like. An email thousand and

47:02

studio service and they automatically like one. They just okay.

47:04

Now he's came as he ever on and if you

47:06

don't want to. There's nothing

47:08

on. The Amazon money. And

47:11

maybe rugs the wrong word. I think ragging

47:13

is stealing. Yeah. There

47:15

fair is regen to capture than

47:17

the average recaptcha Bomb Bffs yeah

47:19

I'm is can have an alibi

47:21

again I'm not bothered of that.

47:23

I think mister Saddam are practicality

47:25

of accepting. The. Regulatory environment we

47:27

live in in a we all I did

47:30

everywhere we go come in and out countries

47:32

to get and gonna bank account unlike him

47:34

bikes athletic yards away. a little technologies that

47:36

make that harder right source so I'll get

47:39

your point lightning a second to but that

47:41

quip real quick. What

47:43

Regulators do? Depends on technology

47:45

pray for example back neat and hundred. There

47:47

is no even conception that we would seville

47:49

every transaction because usually people to changing bank

47:52

notes and coins with each other's like how

47:54

it's do you think of doing that would

47:56

be unfathomable. and in in in in the

47:58

twentieth century and telling me. Need when

48:00

every start using bank accounts and every

48:03

paychecks was coming regularly and you we

48:05

will also available And so surveillance became

48:07

the norm. Speakers technology put us in

48:09

a position where that is now possible

48:12

and in an increasing easy to do.

48:14

Ah, so that's kind of. We've been

48:16

in this like century long. You

48:19

know, kind of period where you know you had. Fast

48:21

transactions but slow settlements and so Evans

48:24

can I use centralized banking apparatus arms

48:26

and it's supposed to be level and

48:28

what the cigars he does is now

48:30

it is possible to add privacy back

48:33

on the peer to peer I'm ill

48:35

cloud layer and is gonna take almost

48:37

like the each numbers and bringing and

48:39

did the digital form is kind of

48:42

will what people are recreating and government's

48:44

is still gonna try to regulate that

48:46

as though it's the twentieth century was

48:48

some degree of success and can be

48:50

I think Silva. Frictions but.

48:53

I. Don't think she was accepted.

48:56

I think it's you may technologies

48:58

and support technologies either financially or

49:00

with your any platform you have

49:02

or by using armor you know

49:04

any way you can have your

49:07

tactical than you and then building

49:09

them ah to to make increasingly

49:11

untenable for those things to existing

49:13

arm. And for lighting I

49:16

think the state is. It's really good infrastructure

49:18

glue to tie a lot of things together.

49:21

And in honor of saw the River

49:23

report I think was August of last

49:25

year they I think of every six

49:27

months every twelve months or so they

49:30

publish a I'm report on that spans

49:32

with some add that the admit he

49:34

hangs out when yeah I guess some

49:36

marty and they I'd leavers done at

49:38

least to the death I'm a R

49:40

P R K Nice to do them

49:42

I'm now it's River. And.

49:45

So rivers one of the biggest nodes and

49:47

then they also work with others to the

49:49

bigots and of pre good insight into but

49:51

half the lightning network by the call them

49:53

of like network is it's actually decentralized private

49:55

the you can't just measure the whole network

49:57

is a prime the can be privately the

49:59

networks in his part you know and so

50:02

but they they get as much information they

50:04

can. And for they showed

50:06

is over to your purity when up tenfold

50:08

in terms of transactions I like and thousand

50:10

percent increase. Christ ah and that was despite

50:12

the fact the capacity to really go up

50:14

that much and if he even did for

50:16

peered time. Because. Becoming way

50:18

more efficient. So even river for zip

50:20

was as big as a self report

50:23

it's they were decreasing some of their

50:25

public capacity. While there's the winning record

50:27

numbers for numbers of transactions processed because

50:30

are getting more efficient and zazi by

50:32

most quantifiable metrics, lighting is still doing

50:34

pretty good grades crow is didn't you

50:37

thing. With the see issue though, it

50:39

becomes more centralized ops I think that

50:41

again as the optionality. so just a

50:44

d internet lightning coming gravitate towards a

50:46

hub and spoke my. Us. But the

50:48

key thing is are so I hear net

50:50

service providers you centralized because if your local

50:53

one kind of sucks you have limited options.

50:55

Are nine good you can do you know

50:57

you can use i'm in have satellite based

51:00

ones. That's like a workaround thing by lightning

51:02

is it is if there's if one hubs

51:04

being a problem you route around it yet

51:06

right? So another Hopkins can grow in his

51:09

place in his mortal hub competing. so all

51:11

you have to do is find. One.

51:14

Hub or and if if they're all are

51:16

being problem you can build your own hobby

51:18

to start your own club net and and

51:20

build your own network of have to go

51:22

around. It's colleague this hub and spoke model

51:25

but the flows route around wherever there's blockages

51:27

so I consider it is. it's a falls

51:29

back to the point of optionality the youth.

51:31

It's fine to have a large hub because

51:33

they're not self costing a lot of your

51:36

funds, your gear does routing through them arms

51:38

and you might be work with them to

51:40

some of your working capital and years and

51:42

years lighting channel that. He could have problems

51:44

if it's you know, get force close something

51:46

like Fi problems, but so this sometimes is

51:49

some degree of trust with the points you

51:51

can route around problems as I think that's

51:53

it. That's a good model, but it's just

51:55

one piece of the the puzzle and so

51:57

you point out. the

51:59

stowed away and tends to be easier than

52:01

non-custodial, I think people will generally gravitate

52:03

towards that unless they run into a

52:05

problem with custodial and then they fall

52:08

back to non-custodial. And

52:10

you shouldn't put your life savings on

52:12

a custodial wallet. You put your working

52:14

capital there, you can use it efficiently.

52:18

And one thing that's really cool about some

52:20

of the new technologies like Charming Mints, which

52:22

are actually just taking 40 year old technology

52:24

and bringing it into the, kind of

52:26

putting fresh life into it, is

52:28

that it really increases the privacy and

52:31

the decentralization of custody. So if you kind

52:33

of think, why don't we like custody? There's

52:37

a handful of reasons. One is

52:40

we don't like the fact that they could censor

52:42

our transactions. Two is that we don't

52:44

like the fact that they can surveil our transactions. Even if

52:46

they let everything go through, just the fact that big

52:49

corporations might be watching our transactions. Even if it's a

52:51

small company, they could be selling it to the government,

52:53

they could be selling it to a big corporation. We

52:55

don't know for sure. So we don't like the fact

52:57

that they're surveilling it. And then three, we worry about

52:59

they could just steal our funds. But

53:02

why do we like custody? Because it's more

53:04

efficient. More efficient. And in the

53:07

traditional system, there's a certain amount of insurance that comes with

53:09

it. And thirdly,

53:11

I don't, like with

53:14

my bank account, I don't see any scenario where my

53:16

money in there gets lost. Like

53:18

even if I make a mistake, I still get the

53:20

money back. If somebody steals my card, I still get

53:22

the money back. I think

53:25

for some people, that's a big leap to get away from

53:27

that. Yeah. And that's why I don't think everybody will. I

53:30

think the right

53:32

system for someone depends probably what jurisdiction they're

53:34

in, how much wealth they have,

53:36

what they're trying to accomplish, what

53:39

era they're in. Maybe in one jurisdiction, there could

53:41

be a decade where it is kind of dangerous

53:43

to use custody. And the rise of Bitcoin, it's

53:46

kind of challenging the power of states and banks. That's

53:49

a riskier period than if you kind of

53:51

fast forward and that if Bitcoin is normal,

53:53

right, that could be a very different environment.

53:55

And of course that in some jurisdictions, it

53:58

could become normal before it becomes normal. normal

54:00

in other jurisdictions. So one is

54:02

kind of just understanding what tools you have

54:04

available compared to what you're specifically trying to

54:06

accomplish and the resources you have available to

54:08

accomplish it. But when

54:10

we think of that spectrum of

54:12

sovereignty or the spectrum of

54:15

custody, we can say, okay, so ideally,

54:18

especially for our savings, you want to self custody

54:20

it. If we're doing

54:22

small amounts of working capital, or we want to

54:24

touch that working capital very quickly, we want to

54:26

make payments with it, that means they're saying, okay,

54:28

what kind of reasonable trust could we do? But

54:31

how can we minimize the amount of trust we need? Or how

54:33

can we short some of those weaknesses? So for example, the

54:36

reason I like Charming Mints is that

54:38

you can have custody one, because he's private. So

54:40

I kind of listed the three problems with custody. One

54:43

of them is surveillance. So we can just kind

54:46

of scratch surveillance off the list. Two

54:49

is we don't want our payments blocked.

54:52

We don't want our savings rugged. Now

54:55

the cool thing about Charming Mints is that you're

54:57

private on it. So you can't be targeted for

54:59

blockage or rugged. So even if

55:01

the government comes to that mint and says, I

55:03

want Peter's funds, I don't want him

55:06

being able to make this payment to this person, or I

55:08

don't want, I want you to compensate

55:10

his funds for whatever

55:12

reason, the mint, I don't even know

55:14

if Peter uses our mint. And

55:18

so instead, the main risk is that

55:20

the entire mint gets rugged. You still

55:22

have that risk, but you've gone down

55:25

from three major shortcomings of custody to

55:27

one, right? The only thing you have

55:29

to really worry about is mint-wide

55:31

rugged. And what protections can be

55:34

put in place to stop mint-wide

55:36

rugged? So one would be without,

55:39

we can come to distribution. That's

55:41

your distribution or your risk. But

55:44

for the mint itself, is there

55:46

anything we can do? So we'll see

55:48

over time how that matures. There might

55:50

be ways to help show that the funds

55:52

kind of match their claim liabilities in some

55:54

way. Because of the way the methodology

55:56

works, it's a little harder to do than

55:59

liquid or exchange. changes. Like I forget,

56:01

if you're using a traditional custodian, I

56:04

think proof of reserves should be increasingly normalized.

56:07

Or maybe proof is the

56:09

right word, it's like evidence of reserves. Because

56:11

it's still not a foolproof mechanism. But

56:13

the more evidence you have of

56:15

the soundness of a custodian, it's been audited

56:17

by a reasonable firm. They're showing

56:20

evidence of their on-chain stuff. So the

56:22

combination of things together can make rugging

56:24

less likely. So, Charlie, mints are different

56:26

because they're inherently private. And so the

56:28

ways to audit them are going to

56:30

be less. But

56:32

can you prove how much Bitcoin the

56:34

mint has in its control? They

56:37

could show that, yeah, they could show their wallets, I

56:39

believe. There's people more technical

56:41

than me. Basically, it's a multi-stake at the end

56:44

of the day. But what they can't actually prove

56:46

is how much exact liabilities they have compared

56:49

to their assets. Or maybe they could show that. You'd

56:52

probably want to talk to someone who's... Yeah, it's

56:54

the one area of... Because I like the idea

56:57

of these Charlie

56:59

mints. I like fairly mint. But it's just the one

57:01

area it seems that we're putting

57:03

a lot of trust in the mint operators. And

57:07

it almost feels like there's a

57:09

certain amount of inflation they can get away

57:11

with that no one would ever know about.

57:14

If you had a particularly large mint that

57:16

was being used, I

57:19

just think that... And I know what people

57:21

are like, someone will do it. Yeah.

57:24

And the mint that was in control of, I don't

57:26

know, 10 million of Bitcoin, and they could easily inflate

57:28

it by 100,000, give it to themselves and nobody know,

57:30

I just assumed it

57:32

would definitely happen. It will

57:35

happen. Yeah. And that's the one area of

57:37

these mints that concern me. It's like, I

57:39

don't think it's been talked about enough. Yes.

57:42

I think a key... So a key thing

57:44

there is one is there's the concept of

57:46

second layer custody. So it's second

57:49

party custody, right? So instead of

57:51

trusting a big, faithless exchange, you

57:55

basically... If real Bedford had a mint

57:58

and you're a keyhole... and

58:00

you're a key holder and you have some, maybe if

58:02

someone outside of real Bedford is like

58:05

another key holder, maybe if Jeff Booth is your

58:07

key holder. And it's like, what are the chances

58:09

the majority of these people are gonna rug them

58:11

in? And I say, well, I'm fine holding working

58:13

capital in the real Bedford mint. Maybe

58:16

I wouldn't put my life savings in it because

58:18

even if I trust you, I also have to

58:20

trust your security competence, right? I have to trust

58:22

that even, that you don't get unintentionally. Right, I've

58:24

got great history on multi-sig custody. Hey, that's not

58:26

pretty good. Only one instance. So

58:30

I have to trust both your, you

58:32

know, your intentions, which of course I do.

58:35

And then I have to secondly trust your

58:37

technical security awareness. So

58:39

would I put my life savings in it? No, but

58:41

I would put working capital. I would happily use the

58:43

real Bedford wallet, for example. And

58:47

so one key thing is just knowing who operates it,

58:49

which is kind of the whole point of the charming

58:51

mint model is that it's really easy to set one

58:53

up. And so you

58:56

can have thousands of these in local communities

58:58

if that technology becomes attractive enough to people to

59:00

catch on. So that's number one. Number two is

59:03

that the way that some of

59:05

these apps work or the underlying protocol and things

59:07

like that, you can have one app where you

59:10

can spread your funds into multiple mints and it's

59:12

very easy to do. Okay. So

59:14

you just have basically have a list. These are your, it's kind of

59:16

like how you, when I look at my bank, there's like a checking

59:18

account and the savings account. There's like a

59:21

premium checking account, which is like fewer withdrawals, stuff

59:23

like that. It's kind of a list. And it's

59:25

like different amounts of funds in each one. You

59:27

can have a little list of federations. It's like,

59:29

okay, I have the real Bedford Federation and I

59:31

have like the Bitcoin jungle federate, whatever

59:33

places might be having, the Bitcoin beach

59:35

federation, whatever places might be operating on charming

59:37

mint technologies in the future. And you can

59:40

move between mints, right? Yeah. It's really easy.

59:42

Is that very easy? Is that over-lightening? Well,

59:44

you can move between mints. Yeah,

59:46

it goes over lightning. Bigger

59:49

ones can also go on chain. And

59:51

that's going back to the prior point

59:53

of lightning is that lightning makes that more possible. The

59:56

charming mint technology would be worse

59:59

if there wasn't. It didn't

1:00:01

work well in the dollar system. It

1:00:03

works better in the Bitcoin system, but even

1:00:06

then, Bitcoin and Lightning, collectively,

1:00:08

what makes it better, because you can do fast payments.

1:00:10

You can move between mints very quickly.

1:00:14

If there's one giant mint, you probably shouldn't have

1:00:16

too much funds on one giant mint. You spread

1:00:18

it out, try to focus on ones you know,

1:00:21

and if your funds grow, you can have your own

1:00:23

mint. You can just make

1:00:25

your own mint. For example, I have a

1:00:28

household in Egypt. My husband and

1:00:30

I, including us, there's nine people.

1:00:33

We could operate the mint for our

1:00:36

household, for example. That's

1:00:38

a 9x scaling just

1:00:41

from that concept. The cool

1:00:43

thing is, if my father-in-law is using the mint, he

1:00:45

doesn't have to worry about me spying on his transactions

1:00:48

or knowing exactly what he's paying because it's private.

1:00:50

That's actually the point of why, in a

1:00:53

local sense, privacy is

1:00:55

really important because on one hand, you

1:00:58

don't even want coin-based spying on you,

1:01:00

but it's almost even weirder if your

1:01:02

neighbor's spying on you. It's

1:01:05

almost in some of these worse. By

1:01:07

having that private custodian environment, you

1:01:10

can decide what layer, what level of mint you

1:01:12

want to do. You could run your

1:01:14

own mint for yourself, your family, your friends. You

1:01:17

could have a local community mint, like the real

1:01:19

Bedford Mint, for example. Of course, some countries are

1:01:21

going to have regulatory challenges. Generally,

1:01:23

it'll be easier to do in developing

1:01:26

type of countries that are facing

1:01:28

more inflation in general and have

1:01:30

less this overhead. Basically,

1:01:33

it gives all that optionality. You can spread

1:01:35

your funds among multiple federations

1:01:37

in an easy interface. If

1:01:40

there's any, you only put working capital

1:01:42

in there. Once you

1:01:44

get to the point, if your savings become

1:01:46

meaningful to your income or meaningful

1:01:50

in absolute terms, you can then probably

1:01:52

should start pulling on to deeper layers.

1:01:54

It could be a more audited type

1:01:56

of arrangement, or it could be on

1:01:58

chain. moving funds between,

1:02:00

every time you move funds from one mint

1:02:02

to another, it's like a small

1:02:05

run on that mint, essentially. It's

1:02:07

a test that the SATs are there,

1:02:09

right? To some extent, when you do very

1:02:11

small ones, the Lightning provider,

1:02:13

like a Lightning service provider,

1:02:16

they're generally working with

1:02:19

eCash. They're doing the

1:02:21

payment for you, but they're holding eCash. So

1:02:23

the Lightning provider has to

1:02:25

trust the mints. So very

1:02:27

small transactions like that might not be

1:02:29

testing the core mint itself. Whereas

1:02:33

larger flows that actually require them to

1:02:35

get those on-chain funds, they start testing

1:02:37

the mint. Yes. And

1:02:39

with each mint, are they all just denominated

1:02:41

in SATs, or can they come up with

1:02:43

their own denomination, their own eCash denomination? I

1:02:47

mean, in theory, you could make... If I had

1:02:49

real Biffa coin, could I say for each SAT,

1:02:51

you get 10 real Biffa coins? So

1:02:54

you could make total mints on

1:02:56

shitcoins. I mean,

1:02:58

originally, they were on dollars, so they're on the original

1:03:00

shitcoin. Yeah, you could

1:03:02

apply this anything, technically. I

1:03:05

wouldn't really do other than Bitcoin. I

1:03:08

think a lot of them probably have stablecoins. At

1:03:11

least, if we vision this, if you

1:03:13

fast forward three years, five years, stablecoins

1:03:16

are a stable

1:03:18

type of assets probably as well. Anything

1:03:23

else than that would be basically a shitcoin. This

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Different is a champion from like.

1:06:00

Technology aside as I'm in terms of a

1:06:02

trust me on how different is it from

1:06:04

say. I'm glad Liquid, because

1:06:06

liquid you essentially tossing a federation yeah

1:06:08

on a mint is really a sense

1:06:11

to the center. It interferes yeah, lot.

1:06:13

you can have a mint. It's run

1:06:15

like there's some. There's There's the sediment

1:06:17

protocol which multiple copies can build upon.

1:06:19

Since then there's the cashew protocol. he

1:06:22

up.ones I've come men towards non federation.

1:06:24

Yeah, so the mint itself could be

1:06:26

ferried or non saturated. You can choose

1:06:28

the size of sorry he could as

1:06:31

you could have one. You could have

1:06:33

to history that as seven of. Nine

1:06:35

Here you can have different

1:06:37

sizes. Liquid is one specific

1:06:39

federation. Yep, it's fairly private,

1:06:42

yet Ah is not as

1:06:44

private as Tommy. and Ah

1:06:46

he cashes. but it's fairly

1:06:48

private. Com and it's

1:06:50

it's it's very summer concert liquid probably else

1:06:52

is once. The difference being. That

1:06:55

if you don't miss a trust the. In

1:06:57

a liquid functionaries or don't know who

1:06:59

they are and things like that's you

1:07:02

could instead it is almost the give

1:07:04

Liquid let anyone deploy liquid network. That's

1:07:06

kind of the key difference because I

1:07:09

like liquid is you know it s

1:07:11

arm and if anything that we're seeing

1:07:13

more liquid usage in a high environment

1:07:16

six people realize. okay if my choices

1:07:18

are pull on chain or leave a

1:07:20

custodian what if is intermediate term I

1:07:22

pull into a said raid facility. At

1:07:25

least it's a are conceptually like liquid.

1:07:28

I just haven't really used it because

1:07:30

he doesn't really have the bullet ah

1:07:32

and has been deployed much. Want to?

1:07:34

I know, I'm Samsung, has them which

1:07:36

emperor they have the actual on one

1:07:39

side combat assume it's been dependent on

1:07:41

plan on S, but I liked the

1:07:43

idea of having ah access to it

1:07:45

and them. I'd much rather have that

1:07:47

in Argentina than. Other

1:07:49

on song yeon but i just trusted more

1:07:52

at as there was a scientists and i

1:07:54

guess if i'm using a mint on com

1:07:56

kind of in bitcoin. My as

1:07:58

I'm in liquid I'm gonna be. The from

1:08:00

block chain. really. when I'm it's

1:08:02

not. The. Are unpaid our your whole

1:08:04

yeah you're you're a pretty state it

1:08:07

with a pit to spit in a

1:08:09

multi say you're holding a token the

1:08:11

represent the are redeemable are under the

1:08:13

surface Tommy Mincer similar but they feel

1:08:15

more like typical lighting wallet so forget

1:08:17

how don't know you his arms There

1:08:19

have been some event and twenty three

1:08:21

ah, the Africa Buckling Conference I believe

1:08:23

the Indonesia Bitcoin conference and one of

1:08:25

the European ones I I think was

1:08:27

Prague. They had said he event apps.

1:08:30

Are we going to have won an Oscar

1:08:32

de node he added guy I was only

1:08:34

with us and if he played within the

1:08:36

other ones wasn't yet I saw have a

1:08:38

knack for guy of the Africa one buddy

1:08:40

guy with his little bit like as a

1:08:42

little bus so they basically you know you

1:08:44

have a while it is feel the lot

1:08:46

like a normal lighting wallet yes or is

1:08:48

essentially his arms and the difference being that

1:08:50

it when you're using a to normal while

1:08:52

it's kind of silly you're alone in their

1:08:54

sights on did so I think a really

1:08:56

poor thing we've we've kind of his plan

1:08:58

on nasr is the combination of wallet. Plus

1:09:00

Social. Is really big so you

1:09:02

can look to pull up and send the

1:09:05

money or receive money from the that's that's

1:09:07

really powerful Either cases were some was like

1:09:09

hey how can I pay i'm like as

1:09:11

a minister the of that minister rights and

1:09:13

so and if you decide if it most

1:09:15

people using sadie you can communicate he can

1:09:17

chat on said he as well and you

1:09:19

can be in you can I see in

1:09:22

the even a tax payments to you're chatting

1:09:24

right and know the combination of payments plus

1:09:26

chatting I think so powerful and to note

1:09:28

these event apps would have like this event

1:09:30

schedule and they're the ones. I saw had

1:09:32

Btc map see to look up but vendors

1:09:34

in your area except the coin. They

1:09:38

had Sat Db T functionality in

1:09:40

them yeah you pay per question

1:09:42

on lightning says that of having

1:09:44

ass return subscription which of course

1:09:46

could be cost prohibitive. did some

1:09:48

people use have upper upper arms

1:09:50

question cause cause a cast a

1:09:52

penny and Sats to to activated

1:09:54

based on only for their time

1:09:57

and these are fully customizable things

1:09:59

and is. The old it still

1:10:01

killing was the toshi except with as

1:10:03

a social elements. Ah,

1:10:05

An sob apps within it, and so I

1:10:07

think that's kind of. Passage.

1:10:10

Active part about it is and it's

1:10:12

not just it's not just fatty it.

1:10:14

Like I said it's you know where

1:10:16

I'd received Beauty Wallet on implement I

1:10:18

know Sediments far received a legacy cashew

1:10:20

arms. I think it's a it's a

1:10:23

whole design space that's some powerful if

1:10:25

we set up a month for our

1:10:27

of and. I'm.

1:10:29

In bed sudden say we wanted to.

1:10:32

I mean we should keep it safe. Want to download

1:10:34

that we can say with to be ten dollars have

1:10:36

been. Within

1:10:38

the within the minutes of years and I swear

1:10:40

see that game on to play with it while

1:10:42

they're there is someone sphere and we have to

1:10:44

live as we see the mins if someone. Puts

1:10:47

more bitcoin into their one. It

1:10:49

does that go into our motors

1:10:51

exit. How it works. Ah distorted

1:10:53

says yes or as he depends

1:10:55

on how much for me. I

1:10:57

for example. When I tested some

1:11:00

is event out of start with a zero balance and

1:11:02

I would put. Funds in from another wallet?

1:11:04

yeah, so I could try to play with it.

1:11:06

Played chat to be t up within the app

1:11:08

at things like that's on. You

1:11:10

know a small amounts yeah we basically it's

1:11:12

it's it's going into the men but it's

1:11:15

also the lighting channels record any saga a

1:11:17

small amounts law that's probably in the lighting

1:11:19

channel. smile on his his short version via

1:11:21

you tube. There are technical people that really

1:11:23

go and it's in deep around current structure

1:11:26

of how these comments were. way to in

1:11:28

senate a moron his head Kelly Kelly back

1:11:30

at a gun to subdue scout been coming

1:11:32

together more educated the both com they're gonna

1:11:34

be on be them something else but I

1:11:36

think it would be kind of interesting if

1:11:39

we if we did give. If we have

1:11:41

have a minimum of full the them and ever

1:11:43

want to download it was given to buxom the

1:11:45

of sort of costs onto the brightest to do

1:11:47

that and as the them that spending the back

1:11:49

of the city where he's at an as is

1:11:51

possible see that would have to ask an ob

1:11:53

what we i mean we could just as the

1:11:55

desk affect our my yeah we could zap them

1:11:57

go young guy was from our small one oh

1:11:59

yeah. The early pioneer but he be a

1:12:01

to give because that was my problem in

1:12:04

Africa as I downloaded it. Or

1:12:06

use or the social elements. I just and have

1:12:08

any reason to see that with them because it's

1:12:10

a most people won't be calling from. may have.

1:12:13

Committed. With make a lot of one I

1:12:15

got live in one us so it was just

1:12:17

like it or extra unnecessary stuff at that point.

1:12:20

but I do like the id say our of

1:12:22

then in a we can have a month stand

1:12:24

you know if people have ceded there's a there's

1:12:26

there's said he will it they can than going

1:12:29

by much as I kind of like the environment

1:12:31

and they us Chino been that We can also

1:12:33

say that there's an event here and school and

1:12:35

get a ticket like I can conceptually seats so

1:12:38

the idea of playing wow well as the at

1:12:40

my things quite science yeah and I think we'll

1:12:42

see what development happens in years. From all

1:12:44

different companies and Opus was contributors. but I

1:12:46

think that that's where we talked about that

1:12:48

the. Odyssey custodians have

1:12:51

limitations. Yeah, And so the classes?

1:12:53

Okay, so. When. It makes

1:12:55

sense you don't use a custodian like

1:12:57

gotta one Ottawa my vault savings custody

1:12:59

right? I want them Multi Sigurd know

1:13:01

whenever I'm doing arms for working capital

1:13:04

custodians are interesting. Trust assumption a Me

1:13:06

If you look at the concept of

1:13:08

trust, trusted him making his more efficient

1:13:10

since the. Before writing like the

1:13:12

Dawn of Humanity. So whenever an environment where

1:13:14

every operates so we can't trust anyone anywhere

1:13:16

at any time when I walk on the

1:13:19

street I'm trusting. That. No

1:13:21

one's and or a only tackling your he

1:13:23

added cars. I had drive on the sidewalk

1:13:25

and you know says be we operate a

1:13:27

motor cross the course as much technology enables

1:13:30

us to we want to make it easy

1:13:32

to minimize how much trust be speaking selectively

1:13:34

Trust so in the see it system you

1:13:36

have to trust you just in the house

1:13:38

and noticed not just us in the banks

1:13:40

be our success in the money itself the

1:13:42

central bank arms and with with this visited

1:13:45

the cool a bitcoin is it. You can

1:13:47

choose your level of trust so forgive of

1:13:49

you want to do on saints dusts. You're

1:13:51

busy, you're competing with things like sending gold

1:13:53

around and your way more efficient than than

1:13:56

your way more skill with the man on

1:13:58

but if you're talking about worse, Capital

1:14:00

or instead of just comparing in power leader

1:14:02

trust based fi of model it's okay I

1:14:04

wanted to. I can you trust a custodian?

1:14:07

I can trust the federation's If I'm a

1:14:09

power user and you know a one time

1:14:11

on seen see to set up a reasonable

1:14:14

size light in channel is not prohibit of

1:14:16

to me I could I could go that

1:14:18

route in. the seats remain as covenants. their

1:14:20

state chains is also you know so depending

1:14:23

on either someone's economic resources or even a

1:14:25

park near com except as their own personally

1:14:27

are either environment. maybe there are human rights

1:14:29

activists. In and thirteen country. Maybe they need. More.

1:14:33

Mom. Can him? Defensive

1:14:35

options or just. Ideologically.

1:14:37

They did really don't like the idea

1:14:40

of any trust to their power user

1:14:42

is more ways are gonna fall back

1:14:44

to. Less. Trust sanctions depending on

1:14:46

how much money to work through with health

1:14:48

issues they need that money to be. ah

1:14:50

what the you actually want to be like

1:14:53

and that the clip much or mean mince

1:14:55

to is like if you know like when

1:14:57

those events were set up I looked them

1:14:59

up and a i was an act of

1:15:01

africa pickling comments but I've messy house and

1:15:04

mint little bit pounds and so if you're

1:15:06

a you know if you're in a country

1:15:08

where maybe don't have good mince in your

1:15:10

country I see me that there's been surrounded

1:15:12

the study cats on some reasonable way. You

1:15:15

could use a midsummer else and you

1:15:17

know you can use. You can seek

1:15:19

outbreak a tree areas where those mincer

1:15:21

allowed to exist to some degree of

1:15:23

protection and you can use them and

1:15:25

they can. You missing know who's using

1:15:28

their minutes. Which is

1:15:30

power of here wealth. I mean we definitely

1:15:32

need one sort of have club because of

1:15:34

the with of all the events of the

1:15:36

game zones services we should definitely do that.

1:15:38

I'm wondering where the admission to him for

1:15:40

the events and the club. we should just

1:15:42

do bombs and choose which one it is.

1:15:45

And and I entered in both suffer.

1:15:49

with a gun either near school i mean

1:15:51

look at his last night i i i

1:15:53

do see i'm sorry to disappoint lemar think

1:15:55

there will be bitcoin power users to control

1:15:57

you to exercise and then sandal this And

1:16:00

then there'll be other Bitcoiners. I think there'll be

1:16:02

like a couple of classes. One is that they're

1:16:05

using wallets that they've downloaded, and

1:16:07

they don't actually fully understand what custodial

1:16:09

or non-custodial is. They just have Bitcoin

1:16:11

on there. And perhaps

1:16:13

they'll get rugged at some point that will force them to

1:16:15

learn. And then I think there'll be IOU Bitcoiners who are

1:16:17

exposed to it through things. And I kind of think that's

1:16:21

where we'll trend towards. I'm

1:16:24

starting to try and get my head around this idea of Bitcoin

1:16:26

banks. I'm starting to realize I think

1:16:28

that will become a thing. And

1:16:30

I think there is a potential that

1:16:33

they might actually come with insurance. I

1:16:36

think that's a possibility. I'm starting

1:16:38

to think about that. And I think what

1:16:40

that really is is I think you're going

1:16:42

to have hybrid banks that eventually just going

1:16:44

to become Bitcoin banks potentially. But

1:16:46

I haven't fully got my head around that yet.

1:16:48

I think I was right, though. I think essentially,

1:16:51

I think that's where we end up. Yeah,

1:16:53

I think insurance, I think, is

1:16:55

going to be an interesting field to develop because

1:16:57

you have to obviously figure out what the risk

1:16:59

models are so you can price it properly. But

1:17:01

you can have insurance that goes around with someone.

1:17:04

So you ensure someone that says, OK, if

1:17:06

you get rugged by a mint or

1:17:08

some sort of custodian, we will insure you. So you

1:17:10

can either you can insure at the custody level or

1:17:12

you can technically insure at the individual level if they

1:17:15

get rugged by any kind of

1:17:17

major custodian they're using if the custodian meets

1:17:19

certain criteria. So there's all sorts

1:17:22

of insurance models. And of course, those are

1:17:24

generally more relevant the higher you go on

1:17:26

the economic spectrum. But then

1:17:28

again, the higher you go on the economic spectrum,

1:17:30

you probably get access to more self-custodial options should

1:17:32

you want it. You

1:17:34

get access to really audited exchanges. For

1:17:38

example, Cash App is a scaling solution. It's

1:17:40

a publicly traded company. It's well audited. You

1:17:42

can send money to other people using Cash

1:17:45

App. There's lightning in and out. I think

1:17:47

there's regulatory challenges with it. Is BlackRock a

1:17:49

scaling solution? I

1:17:51

mean, any IOU is a technical

1:17:53

scaling solution. I mean, if

1:17:58

Some entity even issued banknotes.. There were

1:18:00

definitely fully was or buy bitcoin. And

1:18:02

eat between. Can you make bank to is better the

1:18:04

I think is one company like gum. Noteworthy.

1:18:08

Gray. Can make the actual bank

1:18:10

know cold like the seas visit?

1:18:12

yeah, yeah, that that's nonsense and

1:18:14

other options. I mean if if

1:18:16

real Bedford for example say okay,

1:18:18

here's real Bedford banknotes and they're

1:18:20

backed up by bitcoin. And here's

1:18:23

the peers. The on seen addresses

1:18:25

and the still numbers are there

1:18:27

so trust their but there's their

1:18:29

seat late For example, in the

1:18:31

wildcatting banks part of United States,

1:18:33

how would you begin to order

1:18:35

to bank. Or how to even

1:18:37

start out me as as you you don't

1:18:39

arms. The cool thing about photography is actually

1:18:42

ways to start closing that gap where you

1:18:44

mean up Would approve one hundred percent the

1:18:46

you have anything you say you do, but

1:18:49

there's different levels of evidence you can use

1:18:51

increasingly provide to make it so that. You.

1:18:53

Know you do as he is a way for

1:18:56

cost me to assess. Veto if

1:18:58

I want to use the sufficiency enhancing option.

1:19:00

What is the risk them taking on by

1:19:02

using it? See it does Reputation of course

1:19:04

a qualitative metrics but and is also very

1:19:07

quantities things you can show them. That

1:19:09

as it does already a step up my

1:19:11

existing system we're still very bullish on the

1:19:13

said pets faces on a we came up in

1:19:15

a loss and vm a seat on but you

1:19:17

weren't gonna some pneumonia these come. Back

1:19:20

when spaces like blight to awesome club like

1:19:23

Buffy and I saw yeah me busy, haven't

1:19:25

talked about each. Yep this week I really

1:19:27

like the rise of little between hub some

1:19:30

in L be clean beat showed Tarver be

1:19:32

you had a small town to convey bitcoin

1:19:34

eyes and that inspired a nation. or the

1:19:36

very least in is far the presence of

1:19:39

a nation. not the whole nation power but

1:19:41

inspired you know a basically spread some extent

1:19:43

arms and now we're seeing Canada. Second phase

1:19:46

of that is multiple these around the world.

1:19:49

He and that's. That's important like a you

1:19:51

know if is someone you wanna booted any

1:19:53

country I would love it as a when

1:19:55

emails me and says i'm in a country

1:19:57

x y z How about Bitcoin? I

1:20:00

don't want to say over by an answer.

1:20:02

Go to you know majors I want to

1:20:04

be say okay go to this You know

1:20:06

the here's the website to your local hub

1:20:08

do that I know the ask them though.

1:20:10

Both a all the best local options and

1:20:12

you know get on there going. Their wallets

1:20:14

is also. Another thing, my classes

1:20:16

you don't want. A win

1:20:19

the world right now Finance or the lot of

1:20:21

Bitcoin from. And

1:20:23

you know want? Millions of people

1:20:25

across the world are holding Bitcoin in

1:20:27

one giant shared honeypot. Know ideally one

1:20:29

it. If you know self custody of

1:20:32

his economically possible of is not the

1:20:34

very least, you want to distribute that

1:20:36

custody and. He want

1:20:38

for example you know Bitcoin? You know

1:20:40

Salvador to be held in El Salvador.

1:20:42

He of your them to be outsourcing

1:20:44

all their custody you want Bitcoin is

1:20:47

South Africa and behold ideally in South

1:20:49

Africa both a diva at the individual

1:20:51

level and even if you're thinking about

1:20:53

this from and a nation level you

1:20:55

should be accepting of Bitcoin. So they

1:20:57

at least your your citizens when they

1:20:59

are holding Bitcoin are stable coins or

1:21:01

whatever that they're as much as possible

1:21:03

not trusting you know foreign entities. A

1:21:07

source of. His own hub and spoke model in

1:21:09

that I think you can. You. Can

1:21:12

consider. As

1:21:14

he kisses El Salvador Cel was a hub

1:21:16

but is going micro hubs and it like

1:21:19

else on players are I get a little

1:21:21

hobby him and little hubs can aspire Beagle

1:21:23

hub that's how we saw that little hobby

1:21:25

as as on takes inspired bigger hub yeah

1:21:28

and that's that powerful and so we could

1:21:30

see in the next five years some is

1:21:32

other little hubs inspired they're bigger hub in

1:21:34

their region to be more accepting place for

1:21:37

bitcoin because they see that there's economic news

1:21:39

is there's there's towns that are making use

1:21:41

of this is very energized based around it.

1:21:44

That are willing to vote for it, that

1:21:46

are willing to defend it's ah, and that's

1:21:48

that's powerful and as so for me, that

1:21:50

the rise of becoming Hobbes is the most

1:21:53

bullish thing that's been an interesting impact on

1:21:55

us. So the came as a comment at

1:21:57

the time there was a time when we

1:21:59

saw the. They ah you know what? this

1:22:01

no real point go back to New York

1:22:03

Like who we'll see. We'll see you will

1:22:05

see we want to see you later he

1:22:08

says by likes. It

1:22:10

would be hard to get maybe for and he's

1:22:12

right the a plea would be was hard but

1:22:14

Pub Key is change that. Yes so with Pub

1:22:17

Key having their events on this week we do

1:22:19

nine in three days we could have done a

1:22:21

weekend on twenty entries we as issue to stay

1:22:23

longer. Yeah whereas like three days normally we would

1:22:25

get facility would he have yet we would be

1:22:28

easily Annabel. Yeah. Maybe

1:22:30

nick from causes it or or and maybe get

1:22:32

a couple yeah Alex Galaxy and a chemical of

1:22:34

people and it's just constantly busy because. This

1:22:37

has become the hub for about puppy and

1:22:39

then some say we're now going censored news

1:22:41

now Destination again on the honestly on a

1:22:43

give a mess about credit to Thomas I

1:22:46

think he and pop Kim that they they

1:22:48

kind of brought bitcoin back to New York

1:22:50

and with but now we're fine our on

1:22:52

Sunday to Nashville and we replace a bitcoin

1:22:54

part is other have yet to their hubs

1:22:56

of the drawer because it's because this place

1:22:58

is the hang out that got events on

1:23:00

and people are there and. Ah,

1:23:03

Interesting li in a with do the same in

1:23:05

Austin we would while since early it's how it's

1:23:07

own to the thing l a nice ones and

1:23:09

they really nice about but the point is moved

1:23:11

to be near them like mammals as just moved

1:23:13

to nashville adonis of dogs in there but i'm

1:23:15

like lots of people moved the fight is because

1:23:17

they want to be around of the bit young

1:23:19

isn't exactly an airplane if people do fear and

1:23:21

and it yet wouldn't bet it will be slightly

1:23:23

different i think of as in london a be

1:23:25

the a but but i might in go as

1:23:27

i want to build a stadium that stadium i

1:23:29

would have a said work in space unless it

1:23:31

which will be something little. Bit like Bitcoin

1:23:33

Park. But I

1:23:35

actually have had to be will say if I do

1:23:38

that they might move to bed said put which is

1:23:40

where you know skills are No was going to be

1:23:42

to bed for the somebody else but actually I think

1:23:44

he can happen. I think it can be built out

1:23:46

in these places is so it's. Yes, he can

1:23:48

work in New York's. Romantic. amazing

1:23:50

place to be. As like coup beautiful cities

1:23:52

as he could have Asos had to download

1:23:54

this. It's interesting sidebar that if you know

1:23:57

this pets as just got Universal Studios are

1:23:59

about of. I'm all the places

1:24:01

in buses in the Uk. Decadence. they

1:24:03

pull five hundred acres embeds and legal

1:24:05

duty Universal Studios as awesome as Us

1:24:07

political skits casesa since they could not

1:24:09

justices. Interesting side points, but yeah, no

1:24:11

means I have one I, I, I

1:24:13

do love I and I absolutely love

1:24:15

the idea of this because I've seen

1:24:17

those take my town sidebar and we

1:24:19

see we have over the past decades

1:24:21

has been less and less like. Kind

1:24:24

of local culture is a many places basically

1:24:26

a pivotal feel part of their reach anymore.

1:24:29

They move around for jobs were often they

1:24:31

work from home is having a virtual the

1:24:33

whatever reason might be people are less connected

1:24:35

says like their neighbors than these debates and

1:24:37

if anything it's it. This like the pendulum

1:24:40

swung very far in that direction and some

1:24:42

of these clubs and things like that I

1:24:44

see pull the pendulum back over corrections you

1:24:46

see I see like us local coalescing like

1:24:49

our order coming out of the chaos as

1:24:51

people saying they want that so you want

1:24:53

that physical meet ups. They want series

1:24:55

were shared worsens major on you

1:24:57

know place to gather you know

1:24:59

for place to run you know

1:25:01

while later things like that's an

1:25:03

go back. Your initial question of

1:25:05

of basically. You. Know stealing and

1:25:08

sell sovereignty. Trust is one variable among many

1:25:10

the people can do for scaling. Ah, not

1:25:12

the only variable and it's it's more available

1:25:14

some people than others, but it's it's one

1:25:17

of the design spaces are one of them

1:25:19

sign variables you have to work with as

1:25:21

I think that when we think about making

1:25:24

between better happy you're happy. Make between better.

1:25:26

Five years ago, five years now and is

1:25:28

now how the better now than it was

1:25:30

five years ago. one is have a seat

1:25:33

fancy any sort of self cussed out for

1:25:35

a possible the guy been. recommending harm

1:25:37

done truck and tap signer to people

1:25:39

you found an unfailing huge of manitoba

1:25:41

is such like i'm on an investor

1:25:43

in either those yeah but he's just

1:25:45

such an elegant solution to hold like

1:25:47

a little bit more because like natalie

1:25:49

wood on your phone yes and and

1:25:51

it's and been a top signers basically

1:25:53

a thirty dollars yeah while at of

1:25:55

course is limitations compared to like a

1:25:57

cold carter compared to cause a feature

1:26:00

rich wallet with a screen but

1:26:02

there is a middle ground. There's a pubkey

1:26:04

type signer. There you go. Yeah,

1:26:06

there's a middle ground there and

1:26:09

they've been playing in that design space and I

1:26:11

think that's good. So

1:26:13

you want to make self custody

1:26:15

or mostly self custody solutions better

1:26:18

and then also to the extent that custody exists

1:26:20

and to some extent will always exist, you say,

1:26:22

well how can we make custody less bad? The

1:26:25

worst case scenario is everybody's using one

1:26:27

giant surveilled honeypot. That's like worst case

1:26:29

scenario. A better case scenario is

1:26:31

you pull that more locally and even better case scenario

1:26:33

is you pull it locally and make it more private.

1:26:36

Even better case scenarios you make it so that with

1:26:38

one app you can spread your funds out among multiple

1:26:41

of them. And so

1:26:43

there's multiple steps along the way

1:26:45

to start systemically eliminating or reducing

1:26:47

some of the downsides of custody

1:26:49

until you're left with something that's

1:26:51

pretty good, at least

1:26:53

for working capital and payments when

1:26:56

people feel like they're in

1:26:58

a reasonable environment where they can do that and then

1:27:00

they can fall back to even less trusted models when

1:27:02

it makes sense. Fascinating. The

1:27:05

whole thing is amazing. It's

1:27:08

really, yeah, one thing I will say

1:27:10

is like I've

1:27:12

always lived in this Bitcoin world with

1:27:14

a shadow of doubt and

1:27:16

a shadow of fear. Will this

1:27:18

work? Will someone stop us? Yeah,

1:27:21

and I would say that shadow of like slight

1:27:23

cringy embarrassment because people don't want to sit there. It's

1:27:26

the Bitcoiners. It's all gone this year. It's all just

1:27:28

like excitement. I'm glad to tell people about it. I

1:27:30

want to tell people about it. I feel like we've

1:27:33

almost like partly crossed the chasm a little

1:27:35

bit in terms of like I don't think

1:27:37

people can fudge us anymore. As

1:27:40

I said at the very start, so I'm very excited about this.

1:27:43

My head in now space is just like in

1:27:45

how do how is scaling dealt with and how

1:27:47

do we educate that out? I have

1:27:49

you come in and tell us your

1:27:51

thoughts. It has been amazing. What's your plans for this year?

1:27:53

Anything interesting to do before we finish up another

1:27:55

book? Not yet. No,

1:27:58

I have more book ideas, but I'm purposely trying to. be

1:28:00

disciplined and not jump into them. Writing

1:28:02

a book is a ton of work and energy. Everyone

1:28:05

I spoke to says it's like

1:28:08

doing its great, but it's a horrific experience. Oh

1:28:10

yeah. It's what I'm super glad I did.

1:28:12

It's the most rewarding thing I did last

1:28:14

year. But yeah,

1:28:16

I often the way I put it is don't write a book

1:28:18

unless you feel like you have to write a book. Yeah,

1:28:21

it's like I couldn't have been more distracting for me

1:28:23

not to written broken money than to write it because

1:28:25

it just kept pulling me towards it. But

1:28:29

once it's done, it's like a relief. And

1:28:31

it's like, okay, let's people can read that. I'll

1:28:33

keep showing that book. I don't need to jump into a second book

1:28:35

yet. For me,

1:28:39

a lot of things I'm focusing on is the venture

1:28:41

side. So for example, Ego death capital. I've

1:28:43

been leaning into that more just because I find the

1:28:46

work so interesting. And I

1:28:48

find that it's feet. So when I

1:28:50

when I get to talk to founders and talk to

1:28:52

investors and things like that, I learn

1:28:55

more in the process, which makes my research better.

1:28:57

And then my research helps me kind of give an

1:28:59

input into what kind of things you invest in, what

1:29:01

kind of things we look for, what should we watch

1:29:03

out for. So I find that there is a pretty

1:29:06

good synergy there between the research side and, you

1:29:08

know, kind of the more investing side. And I kind of

1:29:11

I originally come from an engineering background and

1:29:13

engineering management. So I, you

1:29:16

know, I don't just want to

1:29:18

trade pieces of paper around, right as

1:29:20

in or tell wealthy people how to

1:29:22

get even wealthier. Right. That's

1:29:24

not that's not kind of what, you know, gets me up

1:29:26

in the morning. I in some tiny way, I want

1:29:29

to help builders build. Yeah. But

1:29:31

I think that comes from once you've

1:29:33

established a financial security, you

1:29:35

can do that. Yes. It's

1:29:37

like over the last kind of six months to

1:29:39

you, I feel like

1:29:43

a massive draw to fix things in my

1:29:45

hometown and to do things for that group

1:29:47

of people. Whereas the previous

1:29:49

five years, it's about spreading the knowledge of Bitcoin

1:29:51

to the entire world. I want you

1:29:53

to do a service to the world and make money over it.

1:29:56

I'm no way wealthy by

1:29:58

any stretch of imagination. At

1:30:00

a point where I can go, I have the

1:30:02

option to start picking whatever I really want to

1:30:05

do. And what I really want to do is I

1:30:08

want to help people locally. And I think

1:30:10

it's a nice, I think that's another cool

1:30:12

thing about Bitcoin is Bitcoin scales. More and

1:30:14

more people have the optionality. It's the opposite

1:30:16

of fiat, where people are getting more and

1:30:18

more desperate and anything gets a bit more

1:30:20

difficult. Bitcoin is creating

1:30:22

more people have the optionality. Actually, what do I want to

1:30:24

do? But what do I have

1:30:26

to do? Every five years, Bitcoin is better than it

1:30:29

was five years prior. I mean,

1:30:31

it goes through these bulls and bears

1:30:33

cycles. But for example, five years ago,

1:30:35

lightning wasn't really a thing, any sort

1:30:37

of liquidity usability. Nunchuck

1:30:39

and tap signer weren't things. Fetty

1:30:42

mint wasn't a thing. These

1:30:45

hubs were not things. Or

1:30:47

at least the really earliest ones were starting.

1:30:51

And so a lot has happened in five years.

1:30:54

Fundamentally, people often, you know, we talk to some macro

1:30:56

person, like Bitcoin has no fundamentals, there's just a speculation.

1:30:58

So we just haven't done the work. The

1:31:01

fundamentals are what's happening,

1:31:03

what's happening in the space, what's happening in

1:31:05

the venture space, what's happening with the hubs.

1:31:07

That's that's like part of the fundamental analysis.

1:31:10

You're not if you can't name five Bitcoin

1:31:12

hubs, you haven't done your fundamental work. I

1:31:14

mean, look, people digging out 2017 arguments

1:31:18

now just look like morons.

1:31:20

Yeah, because at least Lisa's

1:31:22

2017 arguments, like there

1:31:24

was some validity to discuss it. And then you can

1:31:26

you could discuss it, debate it and put it to

1:31:28

bed. But but now it's a go fast

1:31:30

forward. A lot of those have been addressed. Yeah, they'll repeat it. And,

1:31:33

and I'm always quick to point out there are risks.

1:31:35

I mean, there's there's there's risks in this space. And

1:31:38

you know, I had an old chapter in my

1:31:40

book dedicated to risks. So it's not to say,

1:31:43

I don't like the words inevitable or things like

1:31:45

that. But they

1:31:47

are challenges and opportunities to mitigate

1:31:49

those risks. And so

1:31:51

it's not, you know, going

1:31:53

against the network effect of dollar system is

1:31:55

not easy. You know, any sort of any

1:31:57

sort of challenger to any sort of sort

1:32:00

of major incumbent is hard.

1:32:03

And this one is like the final

1:32:05

boss. It's basically, it's software is eating

1:32:07

so many other things and

1:32:10

going after the highly regulated

1:32:12

centralized banking apparatus and state

1:32:15

issued seniorage. That

1:32:17

is, that's not easy. And the advantage

1:32:20

is, you know, there's

1:32:22

200 different jurisdictions, 160 different

1:32:24

currencies or so. And, you

1:32:27

know, each, any hub in these

1:32:29

kind of building that network. Any

1:32:31

sort of some of these big powers have

1:32:34

pretty strong rule of law, at least decent rule

1:32:36

of law. And you can challenge

1:32:38

them and death by a thousand paper cuts or

1:32:40

I viewed as optimism by a

1:32:42

thousand paper cuts. It's pushing

1:32:44

back a thousand little paper cuts at

1:32:46

a time to make sure people's rights

1:32:49

aren't being fringe and they have optionality. I think

1:32:51

that optionality is a really key

1:32:53

thing that is maybe not emphasized enough in the

1:32:55

Bitcoin space. I think

1:32:57

people who are on the vanguard of things tend to have

1:32:59

black and white thinking, which is actually,

1:33:02

it's not just a weakness. It can be a struggle. You

1:33:04

need black and white thinkers to rush

1:33:07

in first. That's how

1:33:09

radical change happens is black and white

1:33:11

thinkers. But

1:33:13

then in addition to those warriors, you also

1:33:15

want diplomats or people that can think in

1:33:18

kind of more flexible ways. And I realized

1:33:20

that, you know, it's not all black and

1:33:22

white. That the people that think in black

1:33:24

and white are doing really valuable work, but

1:33:27

that there's also really big design space here.

1:33:30

And optionality is something that I think

1:33:32

is really underrated. That you can,

1:33:34

you empower people more to choose when

1:33:36

they want to trust rather

1:33:39

than giving them only one option. You

1:33:41

have to, you know, if you're living

1:33:43

in Nigeria, you

1:33:46

know, before Bitcoin, stablecoins, things like

1:33:48

that, and it's really hard to get

1:33:50

dollars, like your only option is to

1:33:52

trust Nigerian Central Bank and the Nigerian

1:33:54

Banking Network with your money. And

1:33:58

this technology has made it so that you... you now

1:34:00

have a lot more options for whether

1:34:03

you want to trust or if you're in

1:34:05

a position we have to trust, at least you

1:34:07

can choose where you're trusting and then you can

1:34:09

have ways to minimize how much you have to

1:34:11

trust. And that spectrum is really

1:34:13

powerful. And I think we're still only

1:34:16

scratching the surface of what that

1:34:18

looks like. I think that the design space 10

1:34:20

years from now is going to be much bigger

1:34:22

than it is now. Isn't it

1:34:24

crazy to be at the forefront of it all

1:34:26

though, just to live it? Yeah. And

1:34:28

I was talking to Jeff the other day, I was texting him and

1:34:30

I was like, I'm convinced I'm in

1:34:33

a simulation because to

1:34:35

be at the forefront of what

1:34:38

could be the most important invention

1:34:40

of the internet. Yeah, I

1:34:42

think and there's multiple areas

1:34:44

where it's a big deal. I mean, right now this

1:34:47

is the big deal. I can

1:34:49

only imagine people back then

1:34:51

building the foundations of the internet, how

1:34:53

influential. They're really key

1:34:55

decisions or key things that you could build and

1:34:57

no one had built it yet. If

1:35:00

you go back before that, it's like the telecom era.

1:35:02

Before that, it's the industrial revolution. Do

1:35:05

you ever watch Halton Catch Fire? I

1:35:07

know I have not. I don't know if

1:35:09

you watched him on TV, but Halton Catch

1:35:11

Fire was the start of the personal computer

1:35:14

and it's brilliant. It's brilliantly made and you

1:35:16

can just see the excitement of them trying

1:35:18

to develop these first computers. Do you know

1:35:20

it? No, I don't know. It's so good.

1:35:23

It's so good. I don't know

1:35:25

why the radar hasn't been successful, but it's utterly

1:35:27

brilliant. I think we're in that space now for

1:35:29

money. I think there's information

1:35:31

asymmetry to people who are doing the

1:35:33

work and understanding

1:35:36

what's being built here and what the design

1:35:38

space even vaguely looks like versus

1:35:41

people that are just entirely outside of the space

1:35:44

saying, oh, it's a solution in search for a problem

1:35:46

and it doesn't solve anything. It's only an index for

1:35:48

money laundering and all that. There's

1:35:50

so much asymmetry there of getting

1:35:54

to see what people are building and who's building it. What

1:35:56

kind of people are there? They're not shadowy super coders. When

1:36:00

you went and explored Gridless

1:36:02

and all that, it wasn't a bunch of shattered

1:36:04

supercorders. It was a bunch of

1:36:06

people building and bringing electricity to a place

1:36:08

that needs it. Normal cool people, engineers as

1:36:11

well. There we go. Well then look, thank

1:36:13

you. You've given us so much time over

1:36:15

the years. I always prefer

1:36:17

doing it like this. Hate doing

1:36:19

them remote. This might

1:36:22

be the last time until Bedford. Yeah, April. Next

1:36:24

time we'll see. You might find your little home

1:36:27

down. I

1:36:29

actually can't believe that people come there. But yes, thank

1:36:31

you so much. We've had so

1:36:33

much of your time over the years and you've helped

1:36:35

us grow the show. We've kind of grown

1:36:38

alongside your career. So thank you so much. And yeah, we'll

1:36:40

see you in Bedford. Thank you for having me. Always happy

1:36:42

to be on. Alright,

1:36:46

I know you enjoyed that. Always love getting Lin

1:36:48

back on the show. You know, sometimes

1:36:50

I think it should just be the Pete and Lin show. We'll cover everything

1:36:52

with Lin. Anyway, listen, we are out

1:36:54

here in Nashville. Going to be here all week. Going

1:36:56

to be here at the Mining Summit. Also going to

1:36:58

be making some shows. And then I'm heading

1:37:01

out to Canada to make another film. Also

1:37:03

Lebanon film is pretty much done. I think we're releasing it this

1:37:05

week. It could be out this week. Also, I do want to

1:37:07

give a massive shout out to the Fountain guys. If

1:37:09

you haven't checked out the app, please do go

1:37:11