0:02

Welcome, I'm Kevin Miller and

0:05

this podcast is called Self-Helpful

0:07

because not all self-help is

0:10

helpful. I'm your curator, critic

0:13

and translator of the best and brightest

0:15

minds in the self-help world today.

0:22

Find your true self on the

0:24

other side of resolution. We've

0:26

been talking about authenticity, the

0:29

authentic you, who and where is it?

0:32

First off, it's not a totally unfiltered you,

0:34

it's not just a raw you.

0:37

It's a you who has become self-aware

0:40

and at peace by resolving your

0:42

hurts and wounds, your angers,

0:44

your voids. In that,

0:46

it's a journey to becoming authentic to the greatest

0:49

degree you can.

0:50

Our muse is Vienna Farin,

0:53

who I've been talking with lately. Vienna

0:55

is a licensed marriage and family therapist

0:58

and one of New York City's most sought after relationship

1:01

therapist. Her new book is called The Origins

1:03

of You, How Breaking Family Patterns Can

1:06

Liberate the Way We Live and Love. Vienna

1:10

has nearly 700,000 followers tuning in on Instagram at

1:14

her Mindful MFT

1:18

account. To get help discovering

1:20

and becoming

1:20

their authentic selves, This is part

1:23

three

1:23

where I bring on a peer to co-host

1:26

with me, someone who has experience

1:29

in this topic. And I chose Broadway

1:31

and film star Renee Marino.

1:34

I brought Renee on the show a few months ago

1:36

to talk about her book, Becoming a

1:39

Master Communicator, and we just hit it

1:41

off. This is the second time I've asked

1:43

her to co-host with me because this

1:45

is a topic she is close to. As

1:48

you'll hear in a moment when hardship hit Renee's

1:50

life, She realized she was repeating negative

1:52

patterns and she

1:53

started therapy with a counselor on

1:56

inner child work. And

1:59

right there, if that.

2:00

interchild work rubs you wrong in any

2:02

way. Hey, I feel you. At face value,

2:04

I have no desire to waste my time looking

2:06

backwards and trying to uncover feelings from

2:09

my past, I have not enough time figuring out my

2:11

feelings today. I struggled to even

2:13

remember how I felt as a kid, if not,

2:15

you know, now. But please listen, the

2:17

point is to figure out how you may

2:20

have reacted unhealthfully

2:22

to events in your early years

2:24

and brought them forward into your adult life.

2:27

And you did, so did I. This

2:29

is an audit in essence. It reminds

2:32

me if you've ever bought a used car, you've

2:35

in recent years, you've likely gotten a car facts

2:37

report. So you can know the history of the

2:39

car, how it's been maintained, any

2:42

wrecks or recalls, how many owners and

2:44

so on. What occurred to me is I continue

2:47

looking into this, the origins of

2:49

me as Vienna talks about, and it's

2:52

just amazing how unaware I have been about

2:54

some of the wrecks per se along

2:56

the way that have not been resolved and

2:59

are impeding my progress.

3:00

This is the focus of

3:02

our show right now. The

3:06

Self-Helpful podcast was founded by

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the Zig Ziglar Corporation. If you

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are a coach or consultant

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and want to add credibility, clients,

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and impact to your business, go to

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ziglar.com today. Friends,

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this podcast exists to help you find

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of life and the way you show up

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for others. Following these sponsors

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who help make the show possible and provide

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great resources for your life, I bring

3:37

you Renee Marino to discuss with

3:39

me this topic from Vienna Farron

3:42

in her new book, The Origins

3:44

of You. And look at how to resolve

3:46

the damages in our lives so we can

3:49

discover and grow in our authentic,

3:52

at peace selves.

3:54

you

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5:00

So

5:04

Renee, doing this show with Vienna

5:08

and these aspects

5:10

of being authentic and our

5:13

childhood programming and whatnot.

5:16

And yeah, I think it was the first show that you and

5:18

I did together. First time together

5:20

recording about you and your

5:22

book and everything. And you talked then, It

5:25

was either then or maybe in part two and

5:27

you talked about doing the inner child

5:30

work. So what

5:34

I didn't ask then, what was that

5:36

motive? I didn't hear that story.

5:39

So something happened and you didn't just like look

5:41

at a flyer one day and it said, hey, come

5:43

do inner child work. And you thought, man, that sounds like fun.

5:45

I could go to a wine tasting or do inner child work. So

5:49

what precipitated that? Or

5:52

maybe it was that, I don't know. So tell me the story.

5:55

You know, Kevin, let's go out for lunch and then, you know, we'll

5:57

go work on our inner children together. Sounds

5:59

fun. Great. Yeah, let's get

6:02

our nails pulled off also

6:06

Kevin I was always I was like always

6:09

obsessed with Understanding

6:11

why I do things in the way I do

6:13

and I've always been really Into

6:17

personal development. I've always journaled since

6:19

a little girl, but then in the

6:22

end of 2019 a lot went down in my life I

6:27

I lost my father and three

6:30

days later I had a miscarriage. And

6:33

then, you know, I had to deal with all

6:35

of the things surrounding the

6:37

miscarriage and going to the doctor.

6:40

And then all of a sudden the

6:42

doctor tells me, oh, you have to check your thyroid

6:45

levels now. It was like all this stuff. And it was just like,

6:47

boom, boom, boom, one thing after another.

6:49

And I was like, okay, I'm

6:52

dealing with one thing. I'm dealing with

6:54

it. And I felt like rocky, you know, Like you get knocked

6:56

down, you keep getting back up.

6:59

And I just got to this point where I was like, oof,

7:02

man, I am dealing with a

7:04

lot of anxiety and

7:06

grief at the same time and all

7:08

these changes happening. Oh, and by the way,

7:11

the world shut down at that same time. I

7:13

started my new business, started

7:15

the new business and working on my book. So as

7:17

you can see, there was a lot swirling at once.

7:20

And it wasn't even just then that

7:23

I decided, You know what, I want

7:25

to start really

7:27

dealing with these fears

7:29

that are coming up. It was like, because I

7:31

went through all of this at the same time, there

7:34

was no choice anymore

7:37

to turn away from these patterns

7:39

and these fears that I probably

7:41

had my entire life, but I

7:43

could turn a blind eye to them or stuff

7:46

them in the closet. At this point

7:48

in my life, it was like, uh-uh, these babies are

7:50

showing up, you have to deal with them. about

7:52

a year later, it's like all

7:55

of a sudden everything hit me. Like everything

7:57

that I had been dealing with it was like, oh wow,

7:59

Renee

8:00

There's a lot of change in your

8:02

life and that's when I sought out.

8:04

I was going to therapy. I think everybody should

8:07

go to therapy quite honestly. I think it's a

8:09

wonderful gift and then a friend

8:11

of mine talked to me about

8:14

a woman that she connected with who did inner

8:16

child work and I was like, I'm down. I'm

8:18

always, I'm like, let's see what we

8:21

can do. Let's see if we can uncover and

8:23

that's kind of how the,

8:25

that whole

8:26

part of my life started And

8:29

Kevin, it's the most enlightening

8:31

thing that I've done. And

8:34

after listening to your interview with Vienna, I

8:37

was like, man, it's all connected,

8:39

right?

8:40

Like our wounds, our

8:42

wounded inner children who are those

8:46

stuck parts of ourselves that happened

8:49

because like you and Vienna

8:51

talked about, like maybe it was just one moment

8:53

that happened when you were five years old, but man,

8:56

it shook you. And now every time

8:58

something happens in your life, that five year old inner

9:01

child is like, uh-uh, I'm going to keep you safe.

9:04

But, but in reality, it's, it's

9:06

holding us back.

9:07

You mentioned patterns. That's what I was going to

9:09

ask, um, that you saw

9:11

or were concerned about.

9:14

That's the thing that took me the longest to understand.

9:17

I just understood the knockdown get back up

9:19

and that wasn't even that hard anymore, but

9:22

it wasn't until I had, I had to have somebody else

9:24

point out, uh,

9:25

I actually had, it was my buddy, Jonathan Pooley,

9:27

did a life plan, is what it's called, through

9:31

Patterson. I can't remember the guy's name. I

9:33

don't think he's alive anymore, but Patterson. Life,

9:36

and he showed me, it was my, and it was really

9:38

kind of a vocational

9:40

focus, and it was this graph, and

9:43

it showed me, you know, start a business, succeed,

9:46

sabotage. Start a business, succeed, and he said,

9:48

did you get some patterns? And I just didn't get it. I

9:50

had not seen it, that I had these patterns.

9:53

So when you said inner child work, That

9:55

was kind of my fishing there figure. You

9:57

must be seen or...

9:59

concerned about some patterns.

10:02

So, okay, so when you do that and

10:04

you listen to the Vienna thing and it's not about,

10:07

or she's trying to dispel the idea, this isn't about

10:09

going back and just dissing your childhood or

10:11

your parents or whatever, but it's saying that everybody

10:13

does have some wounds

10:16

and the one that was really,

10:18

well, no, let me start there before I keep going. So

10:21

what surfaced as

10:24

far as wounds, whether it was,

10:27

and I appreciate you saying that, You know, the five years old

10:29

XYZ happened and you say, guys, this

10:31

happened and this trauma happened or this

10:33

perceived trauma, because maybe it was no big deal.

10:36

Yeah. But either way, okay, so what,

10:39

a couple of highlight wounds.

10:41

Totally, so I'll never forget five

10:43

years old.

10:45

I was in kindergarten

10:47

and I remember like writing my letters. You know how

10:50

you have to make the big A and they gave you

10:52

the lines.

10:52

The lines, yeah. Lines, yeah, yeah.

10:54

And Kevin, I would write my A

10:57

and my B and my C and I would erase it and

10:59

then I would do it again because in my mind it wasn't perfect.

11:02

And it wasn't until I got to the point that I got

11:04

myself so riled up that I was in tears

11:07

that my father had to come come for me and

11:09

say, Renee, it's fine, everything's

11:12

okay. And that's when that

11:14

perfectionism, and I know you

11:16

get that because we've talked about this, you talked about

11:18

like that perfectionist within

11:20

me that never thinks

11:22

it's good enough and then results in

11:25

me beating myself up, that

11:28

was all becoming real clear

11:30

on top of my other

11:33

inner child that I like to call her just the

11:35

worrier,

11:36

constantly worrying like the what if. Well, what if

11:38

this happens and then what if, and then what if

11:40

that happens and the constant mental

11:43

ruminations, I mean that really

11:45

got spotlighted and I was like, okay, hold

11:47

the phone Renee, like where is this

11:50

coming from? And it was tricky

11:52

for me because

11:54

it wasn't that I had parents

11:56

who were really hard on and they're like, Renee, you

11:58

better be perfect. They weren't like that.

12:01

They were very supportive, loving.

12:03

I could talk to them. So I kept

12:06

questioning myself being like, where did this come

12:08

from? Like I'm harder

12:11

on myself than they are on me.

12:12

But through doing

12:15

the inner child work and kind of

12:17

really sitting back with myself,

12:20

I started to remember that

12:23

there was a point in my childhood where I

12:25

remember making this decision with myself

12:27

that I was going to be, I was

12:29

going to be the savior for everybody in

12:31

my family and I was going to be the one

12:34

who reached heights that other people didn't

12:36

reach. And because of that, I

12:39

somewhere in my five year old, six year old,

12:41

seven year old brain

12:43

tied that to having to be perfect. But

12:46

let me ask there though, but why? Is

12:48

it, was

12:51

it, because you saying that it would make

12:53

me think, did you look at your parents

12:56

and feel like they were not able

12:58

to be all they could be. They couldn't pursue

13:01

their okay. Yeah,

13:02

yes, exactly. That

13:04

was it. You know, my father was brought up in

13:07

a really, really tough, tough

13:09

upbringing, the oldest of five.

13:12

And it was hard, you know, his father was

13:14

an alcoholic. His mother wasn't

13:16

always there. He went away, fought in the Vietnam war.

13:18

And I admire

13:21

him so much. I always did my whole life because he

13:24

did a 180. He was not a

13:27

reflection of what he was brought up. I

13:29

mean, he became the most wonderful father,

13:32

husband to my mother. So for me, I

13:34

was like, oh, I want to show my dad.

13:36

I want to make him proud because he did everything

13:38

for me. I was a dancer

13:41

since a little girl, he paid for my dance lessons.

13:43

He did everything to support me. So I want to

13:45

show him I'm going to do it. And same

13:47

thing with my mother. I mean, my mother had had

13:49

a great upbringing, but still she had things

13:51

in her life. She always wanted to be a dancer. She's

13:54

an amazing dancer. She never got to do

13:56

it because of her father. So in my mind, I'm like, I'm

13:59

going to be the one to do. it and that's

14:01

where the pressure on myself began.

14:04

And again, my parents were, they'd always be like, Renee,

14:07

we don't put the pressure on you. I'm like,

14:09

I

14:09

know, but apparently I've decided

14:11

that I want to do this. I

14:14

greatly appreciate the story, Renee, because

14:17

it's, that

14:19

seems more, it's

14:21

a harsh word, but I would say insidious

14:23

in a sense than the blatant, hey, I

14:26

had this trauma. My parents told me you're never going to amount

14:28

to anything and it's totally blatant

14:30

out there in the open and so I rebelled against that

14:32

and wanted to become something. Over here you're saying,

14:34

and there's no real trauma but you took

14:37

something out of good intent. I

14:40

mean, I don't know how you could go back and even change

14:42

that. Your parents would have to be psychologists to figure

14:44

that out. So no harm file

14:46

on their part and yet you took something and

14:50

it showcases our propensity

14:52

to take something and

14:54

let it imprison us to

14:57

the point to where it kind of becomes

14:59

a trauma. It's really similar to

15:01

my story in that way as well as

15:03

I took something that worked that I

15:05

wanted and embraced it and oh my

15:08

gosh, I let it be.

15:10

Prison sounds bad, but I let it confine me

15:12

at least. Yes, but

15:13

that's what it feels like, right? It feels

15:15

like when we confine

15:17

ourselves in this way mentally, it does

15:20

feel like a prison because you're just like,

15:22

I have to do this thing and

15:24

there's no way around it. And you can't, it's

15:26

like you can't take the goggles off to see

15:29

the rest of life and how everything's

15:31

running because you're just stuck in

15:33

that perspective. And it's tricky

15:36

because a

15:37

lot of that part of our personality,

15:39

and I'm saying both of us, because you were

15:42

a professional athlete, you get it. I

15:44

was a professional actress for how

15:46

many years? So there

15:47

is a part of that that did

15:50

help us where we pushed ourselves,

15:53

but that's what I've learned doing

15:55

the inner child work is yes, thank

15:58

that part of yourself. It's not about. saying

16:00

like, oh Renee, I can't believe you did that. It's saying

16:02

thank you for allowing

16:05

me to reach these heights for

16:07

the things you've allowed me to do. But now this

16:09

no longer is working and you're

16:12

hurting me more than you're helping me. And

16:14

that's the tricky part is it's

16:16

like

16:17

having to go back and work with yourself,

16:20

communicate within yourself and say, okay,

16:22

I know that you're just doing this to keep

16:25

me safe and I thank you, but

16:27

now we're going to do things differently. And it's almost

16:30

It's as if you're talking to your children. Like

16:32

think about that. How would you talk to your children

16:35

if they were doing something that was harming themselves

16:38

or you, but they were doing it out of love. And

16:40

now you have to be their parent and tell them, okay,

16:43

sweetie, this doesn't work anymore.

16:46

It's interesting. It reminds me. I have

16:48

a son, Nikota

16:50

in EKO, Nikota. And

16:52

he's 13

16:54

now, but we got him

16:56

started running. We had all the kids run just as a physical

16:58

outlet, kind of a running family, do cross

17:00

country and whatnot. And he

17:02

pretty quick became, it

17:05

sounds exaggerated, but literally unbeatable. He

17:07

just did not lose, whether it was a

17:09

cross country race or track and field or

17:11

whatever. And of course, you know, I'm the ex

17:13

pro athlete, the Olympic training center's down the

17:16

past thing. I got my Olympian right here, baby.

17:19

And

17:20

he ultimately, the stress that it

17:22

caused him, and we

17:24

kept doing it, I thought about it because you

17:26

mentioned your parents, And we'd say, dude, don't,

17:29

it's just take the pressure. Get 10th,

17:31

get 20, just go have fun. But he ultimately

17:34

said, I just can't do it. If I'm gonna be in it,

17:36

I have to,

17:37

I can't not try my hardest, and try my

17:39

hardest

17:40

is just so hard. So ultimately,

17:42

he quit, he quit that. Now we still wanted him

17:44

to have an outlet, so now he does soccer, and

17:47

he loves it. He still gets to be the fast guy,

17:49

but it's not all about him. He doesn't even wanna play offense.

17:51

He doesn't wanna even have the ball. He loves playing defense.

17:54

He plays the same thing. So he's got his outlet.

17:56

He likes his friends. I'm not gonna

17:58

have my Olympian, because he could care less.

18:00

about sports for the most part, but it's interesting

18:03

to look at that and see

18:05

a kid's

18:06

propensity to what you say to realize,

18:09

well

18:10

it reminds me, and I might have said this in the show, Terry

18:12

Reel, he's a renowned

18:14

therapist, Gwyneth Paltrow calls him

18:16

her relationship therapist or

18:19

whatever, so he was on the show and it's in his

18:21

book, Us, that's somewhere

18:23

on the shelf behind me here,

18:25

and he said just what you said Renee,

18:27

that there's that

18:29

strategy that we learned as kids

18:31

that served us so well. So he's talking

18:34

about that. He's going, you know, just what you said, congratulate

18:36

that kid. That was brilliant, man. That was a brilliant

18:39

strategy tactic to deal

18:41

with whatever. Um, it served

18:43

you well, but now just

18:45

as you said, Renee, I'm an adult. I'm

18:47

not,

18:48

I don't have that

18:49

environment. I don't have those people

18:51

running my life. I don't have that, whatever I do have,

18:54

or I can have, let's say a freedom,

18:57

and I don't need to do that anymore. But that's,

19:00

let me ask you this, because you're

19:02

talking about doing, you were aware or

19:05

had some awareness of some things going on, you went

19:07

and did this work with the inner child. I am

19:09

a little

19:10

curious on trying

19:13

to go find out, trying

19:16

to reconcile, because what

19:18

if you can't? So

19:20

we can say, if you can go figure out why, I would assume

19:22

that's helpful, do you have to?

19:24

It's a to me an honest question. I

19:26

don't do you have to go back and reconcile

19:29

it you see this pattern It had to have come

19:32

from back here from the programming. You

19:34

want to go find out but do you have to?

19:36

Doing the inner inner what do you think

19:38

do you is it really? No,

19:41

that's a great freaking question Kevin

19:43

because I just recently

19:45

I said that to to my

19:47

girl all. Kesley, shout out to Kesley. I

19:50

said, I was having a tough day and I was just like,

19:53

Kesley, why did I decide

19:55

to do this because now

19:58

I'm so aware of every...

20:00

at all times that that

20:02

that in itself can feel stressful. Yeah.

20:05

But I like to think of it like

20:08

anything,

20:09

anything that's really worth

20:12

it. Like that thing in your life that you want

20:14

so bad. Oftentimes you have

20:17

to go through the tough terrain. You

20:19

have to go through that, that struggle where it feels

20:21

uncomfortable and you're like, man, I do not want to deal

20:24

with what I dealt with when I was a kid. But

20:26

I know that the quicker

20:28

I get there and I am aware of it, then

20:31

I can get to the other side. And this

20:34

reminds me of what you and Vienna, when you were talking

20:36

about the authenticity. Yeah.

20:39

That authenticity is on

20:41

the other side of resolution.

20:44

And that's what it makes me think of. Like I

20:46

can only really step into

20:49

Renee, who I

20:51

am in my light at my core.

20:54

If I

20:55

can understand

20:57

why I've developed these patterns, where

20:59

they came from,

21:00

work to

21:02

not eradicate them, but work with

21:04

them so I can step

21:06

into that truest part of myself. So I

21:09

do believe, now I

21:11

don't believe that there's two difference.

21:13

There's a difference between going there,

21:15

having the awareness and then sitting

21:18

in it. And every day just talking

21:20

about this horrible thing that

21:22

happened to you and reliving

21:24

it and talking about it every day. Those are two

21:26

different things. But I do believe that going

21:29

there, having the self-awareness,

21:32

your eyes open to say, wow, you

21:35

know what, Renee?

21:36

Man, you were just doing your best.

21:38

Even though the days it's hard, it feels like

21:41

I'm being tortured by my inner child. Because

21:44

I have the awareness, I realize, oh no, no, you

21:47

are so scared. You're so scared

21:49

that I am getting

21:51

to the next level of my life. You're scared

21:54

that what if I fail? What

21:57

if I succeed? You're so

21:59

scared that you're... trying to hold me back because you

22:01

love me. Okay, thank

22:03

you. I recognize that and then

22:05

you can work with it. So I do

22:07

think that it's important to go back

22:09

and have the self-awareness, but not to live there.

22:13

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22:19

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22:22

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22:24

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22:26

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22:28

and flexible and you can't use it for structural

22:31

building. Pine is strong. That's

22:33

how I think about food. Lots of what we call food

22:35

is not what I want supporting my structure

22:38

because it's not strong. I love salmon

22:40

for instance but what comes from the store even

22:42

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22:44

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22:47

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It,

25:56

you've got me thinking about.

26:00

Ultimately, yeah, so if you come to one of

26:02

these aspects of seeing

26:05

a propensity you have to continue a pattern

26:07

or whatever and being aware, great,

26:09

and try to say, I'm not going to, you know, I'm going to try to

26:11

make different,

26:13

have different behavior, different thoughts, whatever,

26:16

that you can just do that. Now how much better if

26:18

you can go back

26:20

and see that

26:22

past child and understand

26:24

it. There's a movie, I'm

26:27

trying to look it up, year 2000,

26:30

it's Bruce Willis, it's called The Kid. Apparently

26:32

it's on Disney. And I

26:35

can't remember the exact premise. Somehow he

26:37

ends up

26:38

back in time and he gets to witness himself.

26:41

And it blows his mind to see the

26:43

hurts of this little kid, who he

26:46

was, endured. And

26:48

he sees the actual circumstances,

26:50

gets to view them voyeuristically.

26:54

how it changes his life then, how amazing

26:56

it would be to see that and have that understanding

26:59

and do that work if you can. So the awareness,

27:02

you know, step one, that's awesome. And if you can go from

27:04

there, do what you can, great. How much more, if

27:06

you can

27:08

do the inner child work, come back and see

27:10

and understand, feels to me, I'm

27:13

feeling, I should say, in my own journey

27:16

that if I can do that, the more I can

27:18

do that, the more I can embrace

27:22

actually being different. Well, as you

27:24

said, I was gonna say, be authentic. If I can resolve

27:26

it, being different, because

27:30

it really feels, it can feel near impossible.

27:33

Say, really? I'm seriously gonna have a different

27:35

thought, a different view, a different

27:39

image about myself. It's so much easier

27:41

to think of that in regards to

27:43

some external stuff. But for me, looking

27:45

in the mirror, that's...

27:49

I'm with you, Kevin. I'm telling you,

27:51

I

27:52

know exactly what you're saying. And

27:54

yes, there are days

27:56

that you just think like, whoa. How

28:01

am I going to get past this? Am

28:04

I ever going to get past this? This

28:06

is ingrained in me. It's who I am.

28:09

But then having that moment

28:11

where you go, wait,

28:14

now I do know better.

28:16

I now realize

28:18

that

28:19

I went through A, B and C. My

28:22

parents were doing the best under

28:24

their circumstances. So it's

28:26

not about getting mad at them. them. It's

28:28

not about,

28:30

you know, trying to say, I'm never going to talk

28:32

to my mom or dad again because they put me through

28:34

this said thing. It's about having

28:37

that

28:38

power of the pause where you say, you know

28:40

what,

28:41

this is, this

28:42

is what it was and I

28:44

did my best under the circumstances.

28:47

And now all I can do is

28:49

move forward with that information. And

28:52

it's not like, Oh, I wake up and I'm a new

28:54

person. Woo hoo. No, it's just that Now

28:57

when those patterns come up,

28:59

I'm like, okay,

29:02

I see you, it's still uncomfortable,

29:05

right? It's not like, oh, it all of a sudden feels good.

29:08

But there's a, it's almost

29:10

like a little bit of space between it now,

29:13

where instead of totally overtaking

29:15

you, now you feel those feelings,

29:17

you have those thoughts, but there's that stronger

29:20

voice behind saying, okay,

29:22

but Kevin,

29:23

you know what this is about.

29:25

You know that this is your perfectionism

29:27

creeping in.

29:29

Here's the

29:31

way, you made me think of the Zig Ziglar

29:33

perspective of responding,

29:36

that pause, responding and not

29:39

just reacting, which is the con, that's

29:41

it's the pause, it's the awareness. But

29:44

you got me

29:47

to thinking that, you

29:48

know, one of the things that I struggle with here,

29:51

so I'm the fixer, right? Something comes up,

29:53

you just whisper, just the mere thought

29:55

of something that's wrong or whatever,

29:58

especially with my family.

30:00

and I'm going to go fix it. The kids say

30:02

something about, yeah, you know, that it felt

30:04

funny driving here and I'm just out in the driveway

30:07

working on it. And that's what I do. Well,

30:09

so now I'm trying to change that because I

30:11

may not be, anyways, I'm trying to change that.

30:14

Not that I'm not there to do it, but I do

30:16

so much that's unasked for

30:18

that I'm maybe not doing it for the right reasons. So

30:21

I'm trying to come off that. And I feel like a jerk

30:24

is one of the biggest things that I deal with because I

30:27

heard what they said, I

30:29

heard something that could be

30:31

helped. I'm the dad, I'm the husband,

30:33

I'm the friend, whatever, and I could go do

30:35

that. They didn't ask

30:39

and so often when I don't,

30:41

I realize nobody cares really. Not

30:43

a lot of times, they didn't care. And sometimes

30:45

my kids sometimes will feel guilty that they

30:48

mentioned something and now I'm out there taking

30:50

care of something. And they didn't mean, they really would have rather

30:52

I was in here for dinner or having

30:54

fun with them and yet the change,

30:57

the problem with the change is not so much external.

30:59

It's still with me. They're allowing

31:02

myself to be different.

31:05

I think the pressure even

31:07

more so than if you do have somebody who doesn't like your

31:09

changes, which I can't say that I've experienced

31:11

so much because for the most part it's internal, but

31:14

those then if you're looking at this going okay I can change

31:16

the pattern, I can behave different, realizing

31:19

I like to put the hardships or the challenges

31:21

out on the table that you're gonna have a hard time doing

31:24

different, because you did it for a reason. I did

31:26

it to gain, to get

31:29

my affirmations, acceptance, whatever. And so if

31:31

I'm not gonna do that, I have fear. You talked about

31:33

that. Fear that I'm not, I

31:36

don't feel acceptable to myself. I'm

31:38

just, I'm not gonna let that go. I'm not gonna jump

31:40

up and fix it. And then even more

31:42

so if, because some people are going to do

31:45

this or try this

31:46

and have fear and maybe it will be validated

31:49

that somebody

31:51

is on the receiving end is gonna say, well,

31:53

wait a minute, you usually do X. That doesn't

31:55

feel good to me either. and then we're

31:57

into the boundaries type issue, which is.

32:00

You know, Nedra Glover Tawabi

32:02

just had her on the show again. She's famous

32:04

for her book, Change Your,

32:07

I don't know, It's the Boundaries. Shoot,

32:10

I can't remember the title, but Nedra

32:12

Glover Tawabi Boundaries and her latest book

32:15

is Drama Free. Hold on, relationships, right? Isn't

32:17

she? Yeah. Is that

32:19

relationships? Yeah. Matter of fact,

32:21

I think she endorsed

32:22

Vienna's book.

32:23

Yes. Yeah.

32:26

But that again, we're talking about change to

32:28

do that then is next then I don't

32:30

know what your experience was there So as

32:32

you're seeing these patterns ago, okay, I'm not gonna do

32:35

was there a primary thing of saying

32:37

I'm not because that's what I'm saying for

32:39

me it was I'm not gonna jump up and

32:42

Fix and whatever

32:44

because I don't need to I wasn't asked to it's not

32:46

my responsibility all the time to I'm not gonna Did

32:48

you have anything there of on

32:50

the perfection side? What? Oh

32:52

Yeah, well with the perfectionism Again,

32:56

that's so, so

32:58

internal because for me,

33:00

if

33:02

I'm, if I'm looking at the big picture,

33:04

there really wasn't anyone saying

33:07

like, come on Renee, why aren't you doing this

33:09

the right way? Granted as a performer,

33:12

that's kind of ingrained in you, right? Because

33:14

you want to be the best and, and

33:16

you're in a room full of, of

33:19

other women who look exactly like you and are

33:21

the same height and you're all, you know, veering

33:23

for the same job. So there's

33:26

naturally that, that voice of perfectionism

33:28

that comes in, but in my personal life, say

33:30

there was no, no one there. That's

33:32

like, Oh, come on, you're not being perfect. It was

33:35

all me. And that's what

33:37

was

33:38

so trippy about it because it's

33:40

like when I was able to step back

33:43

and ask myself, where is this coming from? I

33:46

all of a sudden took those goggles off and

33:48

I was like, Oh, I've been doing

33:50

this to myself. What

33:52

I can completely connect

33:54

with you on this about is the

33:57

part of myself that

33:59

always was

34:00

a people pleaser.

34:01

Yeah. And

34:03

always, you need something?

34:05

Yes, yes, yes. Before

34:07

you even have time to think about it, right? Because Renee

34:10

Tied doing things

34:12

and making them happy to, that

34:14

makes me know that I'm a good person and I'm

34:16

good enough, right? It's

34:18

so deep. Like, I only know

34:20

this now after really working with

34:23

therapists and reading all the

34:26

books and doing all the things. but

34:28

I realized, oh, so

34:31

when I was saying yes all the time to everybody,

34:34

it made me feel good because they were happy. So

34:36

if you're happy, that means I'm safe because

34:38

they think I'm a good person. But

34:41

do I know I'm a good person, even if I say

34:44

no? And that's what I've been

34:46

toying with lately. So to add

34:48

to what you were just saying, just recently,

34:51

my mom, who is like my best friend,

34:54

we're always together, She

34:56

asked me to do something last week. And

34:59

oh, I was leaving for Miami to go coach.

35:02

And it was a Sunday, she asked me to do

35:04

this thing. And then I had to fly out Monday. And

35:08

at first I was like, yeah, absolutely. And

35:10

then I got home, Kevin. And it was the first

35:12

time that I was like,

35:14

I realized all the things I had to do. I have to pack,

35:17

I have to get my materials ready.

35:19

And I had this guttural instinct

35:21

that was like, Renee, you don't need to be doing this right

35:23

now. you don't need to go out with your mother, you

35:26

have to pack.

35:27

And I called my mother up and I

35:29

said, mom, you

35:31

know, I don't think I'm gonna join you.

35:33

And I knew she wanted me to, and like there

35:35

was that twinge of, oh, I felt it like

35:37

the disappointment, like, oh, I'm disappointing her.

35:40

And I was like, mom, I really have a lot to do.

35:42

And I just think by time I get home, and

35:45

she completely understood. And then

35:47

afterwards, we hang up the phone, I called

35:49

her back a little while later and I said, I just want you to

35:51

know, I'm really proud of myself.

35:53

because that was

35:55

really hard to do. And she said,

35:57

I'm proud of you too, because she knows.

36:00

I can tend to be a people pleaser. But

36:02

yes, so it's not

36:04

easy when we start to make those changes. I

36:06

feel like I have that image

36:09

of like, you know, when you were a kid and you made a whirlpool

36:11

in the pool and you're making

36:13

the current go one way, and then all

36:16

of a sudden you're like, all right, everybody, we're going

36:18

to walk back and reverse it. And it's so

36:20

hard at first. It's a great analogy. It's

36:23

so hard at first, Kevin. And you're like, there's

36:25

no way I'm going to get this current going the other way.

36:28

after a while, it starts

36:30

going the other way. That's

36:31

how I imagine it in my head. So those days

36:34

that it's really hard, and I'm like, why did

36:36

I go on this journey? Why am I talking

36:38

to my inner children? This is so freaking hard.

36:41

Then I remember it's okay. This is how

36:43

it's supposed to be right now.

36:45

I love the story, Renee. My

36:48

first experience with that is my wife, and

36:50

she says something, but I go

36:52

pick something up. So we're at home, I

36:54

go pick something up. Of course, grab

36:57

keys, go out, start

37:00

the car. And I

37:03

realize I'm

37:04

just kind of pissed.

37:07

Sat in it for a second,

37:09

walked back in and said, honey, I could definitely go get

37:11

it. But I'm just realizing if I did,

37:13

it would be with a little bit of bitterness because I've

37:16

already been in town twice, whatever. And

37:19

she didn't say this, but in my recollection, like if

37:21

I go back in my mind, I'd be like, oh,

37:24

it's so good for you honey, yay

37:26

for your personal growth. And

37:29

it was so funny. It was and she wasn't she

37:31

wasn't that way at all but that's how I you know picture

37:33

it in my head because it was like that. Okay I

37:36

want it your current thing. You

37:40

heard me talking to Vienna.

37:41

I am a little

37:45

blown away and I wish every

37:47

kid coming out of

37:49

high school, college, whatever. No probably

37:51

high school especially because

37:53

that's when you are generally leaving home and

37:56

you're either up in a college

37:58

dorm or your own apartment.

38:00

or some friends or whatever, but you're out and you

38:02

think,

38:03

oh my gosh, this is it. This

38:05

is the start of me. This

38:07

is the start of Kevin. This is the start

38:09

of, now I can stay up all night or

38:11

I can eat whatever, I can choose

38:13

whatever and I don't have to, I'm not

38:15

under that, even to the best of parents, man. I just,

38:18

I'm free. And

38:20

to realize you're not,

38:23

you're in the current. I hadn't thought about it that

38:25

way until you said that, but you are, you

38:27

know, with being honest, you're programmed, you've got an operating

38:29

system, whatever it is, you have a current and

38:31

it's all you know. You may have gotten

38:33

glimpses of something different as

38:36

you were exposed to other families, friends,

38:38

whatever, but you have been living in a current

38:40

and you can't not. My kids can't

38:42

not live in the current that I have created. They just

38:45

can't. My kids

38:47

will not wake up tomorrow morning in New Jersey. They're

38:49

gonna wake up up on a mountain for

38:52

better and worse. And so

38:54

that's the only current that they know. So they're gonna leave home

38:57

and they are in a current. And

38:59

so to become aware of

39:01

what the heck kind of current am I in?

39:05

And cause I am not free of that. And

39:07

what of that do I want to be free? Cause

39:09

some of them I may love it, maybe love and acceptance

39:11

and you know, beautiful stuff. But some

39:14

of that, but I think the biggest thing is just realizing

39:16

that, that you did, I left home and

39:18

I,

39:19

I was not

39:20

starting from square one. I was in a

39:23

current and what I did for the most part,

39:25

even though I thought that I'm my own man

39:27

now, And I wasn't, and I just kind of continued

39:30

along in that own current of my upbringing.

39:33

As you talked about, a lot of it that I created myself,

39:35

I embraced myself, wasn't anybody's fault, and

39:38

I went on and I continued, and then we're

39:40

into where you started with this, and I'm doing these

39:42

patterns. That's what blows me away.

39:45

So somebody's hearing this right now, and you're 70 years

39:47

old,

39:49

and you've never heard this before. You're 70

39:51

years old, you've been 70 years in this current.

39:54

I don't wanna minimize it in polyaneo.

39:57

kids are, this is self help. You can change it today.

40:00

Probably not.

40:01

You're probably never going to totally change

40:03

that current. It's been a long time. You

40:05

can look at that and you can probably address some

40:07

patterns today.

40:08

And own them. You

40:11

know, I feel like that's such an important

40:14

step. I realize

40:17

the older

40:19

and

40:19

wiser I get that I admire

40:22

that in other people. I admire

40:24

when someone's like, listen, I

40:27

have a really bad temper. I recognize

40:29

that, I'm working on it, but

40:31

I own that. I'm like, yes,

40:34

I think that that to me is the key.

40:37

Because you're right, Kevin, it's

40:39

people who are in this personal development

40:41

space, we get it. Like

40:43

if at first thought, you're like,

40:45

oh, this is gonna be easy, and then you're in it, and you're

40:48

like, oh, wow, this is no

40:50

joke. But

40:52

you can own

40:53

that part of yourself. And I

40:55

think that's definitely the

40:58

place I've been in as of recently, owning

41:01

those days that I'm like, I need to sit

41:04

and cry maybe for the next hour. I

41:06

miss my dad. I'm just

41:09

missing how things used to

41:11

be and that's okay. I'm going to own

41:13

this. And when you own

41:15

those things, those places

41:17

that you're going to emotionally, you own

41:20

those patterns that you're in. Now you

41:22

have a bit more control because you're

41:24

not turning a blind

41:27

eye to them and saying Oh, no. Oh, Kevin,

41:29

you think that I'm high energy? No, I'm not

41:31

because now there's a disconnect,

41:33

right? You can't really connect with

41:35

another person or yourself. Well,

41:37

yourself first and foremost, because

41:40

you're not owning it. But if I own

41:42

the fact that I'm like, yeah, you know what, Renee? Nine 2019

41:46

into 2020 rocked your world. You

41:51

had your floor taken out from from

41:53

underneath your feet. And you know what,

41:56

it caused some changes within you and that's

41:58

okay. Now you're working. working through it,

42:00

like that feels within my nervous

42:02

system. That feels so much

42:05

better than sitting back and being

42:07

like, no, I'm fine. Everything's fine. What

42:09

do you mean? I'm cool. No, I

42:11

started my own business. My, I lost my father and this happened, but everything's

42:14

fine. No, that's completely

42:17

cutting myself off from myself.

42:19

But if I can own it and then work

42:21

with it, now we're going with the current.

42:25

I hear you. I,

42:27

that's been, I have

42:30

struggled to own things because I was just

42:32

so ignorant of them. I don't know.

42:35

Man, there's definitely been some things where I have not

42:38

wanted to, I've been in denial somewhat.

42:42

So I think we all have to look at that. There's

42:44

probably been more things though where I just was

42:46

unaware. I mean, I really thought, there's

42:49

just, it's what Vienna

42:51

talks about. I just, things were good. I don't

42:54

know. And yet I'm looking at the patterns

42:56

though and going, well, those aren't good. And I had to have somebody

42:58

else point them out somewhat. Well,

43:00

no, then I had my own times of hit and rock bottom and you

43:02

can't deny that, but I still didn't know why.

43:05

And actually in that, I probably

43:07

was that much more harsh on myself

43:11

because I thought there's just no

43:13

reason.

43:14

But even as I say that,

43:17

the danger is hearing me

43:19

say that and going, oh, it's because now I got to go look

43:21

for the reason and I'm looking for blame. That's

43:24

not it. So can we look for the reason? We're

43:26

not looking for blame against anyone and

43:28

even ourselves, but going, oh, there's something that

43:30

happened. Well, your story's great. It was,

43:33

nobody said, your parents weren't sitting there lamenting

43:35

their place in life. You were just looking at them

43:37

going, oh gosh, I see the sacrifices

43:40

they made and some things that they're

43:42

doing so much better what they came from, but they, you know,

43:44

they're never gonna, mom loves dance, but she's never

43:46

gonna have her shot.

43:47

So I'm gonna go, so there's

43:49

the causation. So we went back, there's a

43:51

reason for whatever, You know,

43:53

somebody else could have been in that and they would not have embraced

43:55

what you did, but you don't need

43:57

to dis your, You didn't ask for that.

44:00

either it's your DNA or whatever

44:02

it was

44:03

and then say okay now

44:05

I've

44:06

now I'm aware how do

44:08

I look in the mirror and see and be

44:11

something different and

44:14

that's and I do want to say to what you said it is

44:16

not it is not easy and I do

44:18

feel like we as an industry in

44:21

self-help we tend to say hey here's the five steps

44:23

to it you know you go at it you're good

44:25

and you know man this is I still use

44:27

the term I I don't know if I said it with Vienna, but

44:29

I still feel like in that,

44:31

back to your current, that was a, it

44:34

sounds bad. It was a brainwashing, that was a

44:36

programming that we're going to have

44:38

to re-brainwash and

44:40

that is just freaking hard.

44:44

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44:48

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44:50

more of a believer than ever that when it comes

44:53

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44:55

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44:57

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47:09

It is, and what I'm learning in my journey right now,

47:11

this

47:16

is fun that I get to share with you because as I'm going

47:19

through this with my

47:21

coach and

47:23

inner child specialists. I'm learning

47:26

so much every week. And what

47:28

I'm seeing, so

47:30

I'll be really transparent right now. One of

47:32

my

47:34

strongest inner children is

47:36

the inner child who judges the crap

47:39

out of me. And I thought

47:41

about it because I just heard it even within you. You

47:44

said it like really, really slightly, right?

47:46

Just as an aside, because we

47:49

oftentimes, I can just speak for myself, I

47:51

judge myself all the time. And just

47:53

now I'm recognizing, oh my goodness,

47:56

that self-judgment comes into everything

47:59

I I do.

48:00

but it's so programmed in me,

48:02

Kevin, that I didn't even recognize

48:04

it until recently, where it's

48:07

a situation where I'm doing something and

48:10

say I am struggling

48:12

through it. I don't just struggle through it, but

48:14

then I judge myself for struggling through it. And

48:17

I'm like, oh my goodness, what is,

48:20

where's this coming from? And

48:22

what I loved it when I was listening to your interview

48:24

with Vienna is, It's

48:26

so nice to feel

48:29

as though there doesn't need to be

48:31

judgment on ourselves or

48:34

our parents, right? When we recognize

48:37

that wound, when we recognize that original

48:39

pain, we can just recognize

48:42

it and say, okay, I need

48:44

to deal with this now. I recognize because

48:47

of mom and because of dad,

48:49

this situation I was in, now I'm

48:51

in this place, but there's no throwing

48:55

you under the bus for it or judging

48:58

you or myself. No, we were all doing

49:00

the best we could under the circumstances.

49:02

And now let's move forward from there. And

49:05

that perspective shift of

49:07

understanding self judgment

49:09

does not.

49:10

It's not something that we're innately born

49:12

with. It's not something that we need

49:15

to survive.

49:17

And I can lovingly let that go. That's

49:19

been probably

49:20

the most powerful shift for me.

49:24

I'm thinking about it as you

49:27

I'm I'm concerned that I inherently

49:30

not decidedly

49:33

but that I inherently think

49:35

I'm supposed to judge myself that's

49:39

that's what I thought yes

49:41

and it's tricky this is what I'm saying

49:43

I thought until I had

49:46

a mirror held up to me I

49:48

thought the same thing Kevin I

49:50

again Again, we're so similar

49:52

because my background,

49:54

being in the entertainment field, a dancer,

49:56

since five years old singer, actor,

49:59

you being a pro. We know

50:01

what it's like to push ourselves to the brink,

50:03

right? We can't be

50:05

the best or get to those heights of our

50:08

careers without, in

50:10

one way, shape or form, judging ourselves, being

50:13

perfectionists with ourselves.

50:16

But again, that's where that

50:18

idea comes into play, that that worked

50:20

for us

50:22

in this certain scope of a situation,

50:25

but it's not innately what we're

50:27

supposed to do. to do. And that I

50:30

get it. I'm seeing you. I feel

50:32

you right

50:32

now. I'm thinking.

50:35

I'm thinking through it. I mean, because there is the aspect

50:37

because it go so go to performance, whether it's

50:39

a bike race or your performance.

50:42

And especially if there's something where

50:44

you

50:46

bobbled a little bit or whatever that, you

50:48

know, we can often we're going to critique

50:50

ourselves. And there's gonna be times when I know and dude,

50:52

I I just kind of quit. I

50:55

know and I'm not proud of that.

50:58

I can regret that, but

51:00

to have

51:01

grace for myself and to know, man, that

51:03

everybody's doing, that happens to everybody.

51:06

So in that, so let's go to regular life and

51:08

maybe there was a bad relational

51:10

moment or whatever and you know

51:12

that you were being a turd

51:15

and having turd feelings. But

51:20

even to that, to go, and like everybody else

51:23

isn't?

51:24

Because if it was my friend, because if I heard this,

51:26

if I heard that you did the same thing, Renee, oh

51:28

my gosh, I did the same thing to my husband or

51:31

friend or whatever, I reacted that way. I would have

51:33

so much grace to you. I go, well, you're human, you

51:35

know? I said, I'm sorry,

51:37

yes. But it's, yeah, I know, I know.

51:40

We're talking about this intellectually and I'm tasting

51:43

sometimes

51:44

the ability the

51:47

ability to

51:48

turn that around on myself.

51:51

It feels monumental because I do, I

51:53

think there's some part of me where I feel, I

51:55

may even feel proud that I am criticizing

51:58

and judging myself.

52:00

Yeah, okay.

52:01

Yes, I wore it as a badge of honor.

52:03

I've worn it as a badge of honor my

52:05

entire life, Kevin.

52:07

And I'm just now seeing this,

52:10

that I have worn it as a

52:12

badge of honor. And now I'm seeing

52:15

the people around me and the people I look up

52:17

to and people in my life that I love. And I go, oh,

52:19

wait, whoa.

52:20

It doesn't have to be this way. As

52:24

you said, I can look at myself

52:26

and say, okay, Renee, you made that mistake.

52:29

You weren't as good in that situation

52:31

as you could have been, but handling it with

52:33

grace as opposed to beating

52:35

myself up. That's probably

52:38

a better way to say it. Yes, we're all

52:40

going to give ourselves

52:42

feedback. We're going to recognize when

52:44

oh, I didn't handle that

52:47

as well as I could have, but there's

52:49

a difference when you say, okay Renee,

52:52

you're better than this. You can do better next time

52:54

versus I can't believe you you're

52:56

like you're like such an idiot. What is wrong

52:58

with you? That's a phrase that

53:01

I have said to myself more often than

53:03

than I've ever said to anyone So

53:06

welcome everybody into my brain, but

53:08

that that that thought Renee. What

53:10

is wrong with you? And

53:13

I'm like, oh my goodness. That was that's been

53:15

a staple in my head

53:17

Because I have just beat myself

53:19

up time and time again again because

53:21

at some point in my life,

53:23

I connected beating myself up with working

53:26

harder. So if I beat myself to submission,

53:28

then I'll work harder and then I'll be better the

53:30

next time. No, I

53:33

can now handle it with grace.

53:36

Well, I was about, I was going

53:38

another direction with what you just said in a sense, because

53:41

if we put you on stage or,

53:43

you

53:45

know, put me on the road, you know, on

53:47

a race, that

53:50

I'm stuck on your badge of honor thing because

53:53

doing that and beating the best out of

53:55

ourselves, it does work

53:58

on stage.

54:00

work on and I

54:02

was actually thinking about I guess because

54:04

you the term badge I'm thinking

54:06

military and you think about the super

54:08

hard, you know crusty, you know

54:11

top whatever they I don't even know sergeant lieutenant

54:13

whatever is at the top I don't know. Yeah. And that

54:17

person who there's no excuses no

54:19

limits self-judgment as

54:22

a badge of honor man

54:24

you don't give yourself any limits you don't give in

54:26

And that does pay off on the

54:28

battlefield. It can pay off in your

54:31

work and in your performance. It

54:33

doesn't pay off in relationships with

54:36

ourselves or with others, because if you think about that

54:38

same person, your thought is they also loathe

54:41

themselves and they pretty much loathe everybody

54:43

else. They're outside of the battlefield, they

54:46

are alone. They're divorced, their kids

54:48

don't like them, they have no friends, they

54:50

may have some respect to their peers, but they're

54:53

not happy. And so can

54:55

we, I mean,

54:57

maybe they're, the

54:59

criticism. There's a time and place. Okay,

55:01

that's what I guess. No, I totally

55:04

agree. Like there's

55:07

those times that I was the

55:10

queen perfectionist as an artist,

55:12

right? As a dancer. If I couldn't

55:14

do my pirouette on the left-hand

55:17

side, I would work it for hours and hours

55:19

until I could.

55:19

And if your toes are bleeding, man, you just

55:22

bleed across the floor.

55:24

Many nights did I come home with bloody

55:26

toes? Absolutely. And that's,

55:29

yes, I will give credit where credit's due. And

55:32

that's what allowed me to reach

55:34

Broadway and reach those heights that I dreamt

55:37

of.

55:38

I think the trick here

55:40

is as you get wiser and

55:43

you become more self-aware, what

55:45

you realize is, okay,

55:47

things can be compartmentalized.

55:51

When those men and women are on the

55:53

battlefield

55:54

and they have to put those blinders on and

55:57

And just, yes, I have to do this and these are the demands

56:00

and I need to go here and I can't think

56:02

absolutely they need that that

56:06

skill of of kind

56:08

of taking the emotion out of things right

56:11

to it, there's no time to be emotional.

56:14

You can compartmentalize that for when they're on the

56:16

battlefield, but then yes in the

56:18

rest of their lives now now we must

56:20

allow those emotions to flourish. So

56:23

there's a time and place where that does work and

56:25

again going back to the inner children. This

56:27

is what's so powerful about it is

56:31

you start to see that, oh,

56:33

you needed to be that role in

56:36

my life at that time.

56:38

Right? Yeah, when I was on stage when

56:40

I was falling out of my turns

56:43

and I'm doing a Broadway show and I need to

56:45

nail this for opening night. Yeah, I

56:47

need to

56:49

give myself a little tough love. Let's go Renee.

56:52

So you can thank yourself for that. But now,

56:54

because I'm wiser, I realize

56:56

that I can still pull out that quality

56:59

of me pushing myself, but

57:01

I can do it in a healthier way.

57:04

Meaning,

57:05

say I'm going to go, you know, take a dance class

57:07

today and I'm like, oh man Renee, you haven't

57:10

danced in three years and I'm falling out of

57:12

turns here and there and that old

57:14

pattern wants to come in and call myself

57:17

an idiot. Or say, Renee, come on, what's

57:19

wrong with you? Instead, I could say, uh-uh.

57:22

Wow, Renee.

57:23

Okay, so you're a bit rusty. We're

57:26

gonna stay here and work on this for another hour

57:28

or two. It's almost not

57:31

in the what, but the how, right?

57:33

Like how you're doing it, how you're

57:35

pushing yourself to the brink. Because

57:37

now I have the information

57:40

and the wherewithal to know, okay, if

57:43

I tried to beat myself up like that, like

57:45

I did 10 years ago, that

57:47

wouldn't feel good anymore. Because I've

57:50

now grown to a certain point work. It

57:52

just doesn't fit with me.

57:54

And it's uncomfortable. You

57:57

mentioned the word, you said the word role, our

57:59

role. So I didn't send you part

58:01

two that I did with Vienna. I

58:04

did it with you, you know, long ago, with the values, motives

58:07

and habits. And I think it was in the spiritual

58:12

aspect at the beginning. And I actually titled the

58:14

show after this. She talked

58:16

about her own efforts

58:19

to de-roll.

58:21

So here's the role to de-roll. And I hadn't heard it said

58:23

in that way. I get it, you'll get it, obviously.

58:26

But to de-roll, and it has me thinking

58:28

about that. So here I am, I could paraphrase

58:30

it for her, she didn't say this specifically, so she spends her day

58:32

as a therapist, doing her

58:34

therapy thing, listening, offering this,

58:37

whatever. I could see maybe

58:39

her husband going, okay, let's D roll,

58:41

babe. I'm

58:43

not ready to be your patient right now. She needs to D roll.

58:46

And so in that, so here you are out here

58:49

busting your butt on stage. You

58:51

are

58:51

critiquing yourself. You're

58:53

off stage for a second, you're gonna go back on, man,

58:55

you're gonna tape up the bloody toes, You're gonna go back,

58:57

do what you gotta do. Okay,

59:00

now you're off stage. This is after

59:02

hours, you're out at dinner with friends,

59:05

and this is not the place to be judgmental

59:08

and critical about yourself. And

59:10

of course that's gonna relate to how

59:12

you see them, and you're criticizing

59:15

the food and everything going on.

59:17

I mean, because you can take that on to de-roll.

59:20

I hadn't thought about it in this term,

59:22

but you're bringing me full circle on

59:25

this aspect There is a time, oh, I'm

59:27

back to that self, that badge of honor,

59:30

that badge of honor. That's

59:32

what I was talking about before and I didn't say it in those

59:35

terms, but you got it.

59:37

Because we do and we do it because there

59:39

is payoff

59:41

in certain places, but we gotta weigh that payoff

59:44

of is that payoff, is it getting us what we want,

59:46

is that okay, or is it getting us what we want, but

59:49

it's sacrificing XYZ, or

59:51

maybe it has its place, but it's not what

59:53

we need to do. my, you

59:55

know, Brittany, one of my greatest skills

59:58

just in athletics was in.

1:00:00

You know, obviously that's what got me on the podium.

1:00:02

That's not served me well in relationships.

1:00:06

I didn't know that. I didn't understand

1:00:09

deroling as Vienna would say.

1:00:12

Yeah. And Kevin, again,

1:00:14

it all comes back to self-awareness. Like

1:00:17

you just said it. You didn't know

1:00:19

that that wouldn't serve you in

1:00:21

relationships until you figured it

1:00:23

out because it smacked you in the face. And

1:00:25

that's what got

1:00:28

me thinking today that I was listening to to your guys interview,

1:00:30

I was like, man, life,

1:00:32

and I say this all the time already, but

1:00:34

something about your interview with Vienna really

1:00:37

hit home for me in my belief

1:00:40

that life is just

1:00:41

a school. Like we

1:00:44

are in a school and we

1:00:46

are studying these subjects and we are being

1:00:48

tested all the time and sometimes we thrive

1:00:50

and we get an A on the test and sometimes we get a D

1:00:53

and then we have to go back and we have to learn

1:00:55

these other lessons And by recognizing

1:00:58

that, I

1:01:00

know for me, I can just speak for myself, that

1:01:03

takes some of the pressure off of

1:01:05

thinking that we have to figure out

1:01:08

every single thing in the world and

1:01:11

be these perfect specimens, because there

1:01:14

is no perfect. We're learning and we're growing.

1:01:17

And self-awareness

1:01:19

is just such a,

1:01:21

man, it's such an important piece

1:01:23

to every part of our lives, Not

1:01:25

because it's going to

1:01:27

let us do a 180 overnight, but

1:01:29

because it'll give us that space

1:01:32

to choose differently. Even

1:01:34

if it's still uncomfortable, we can choose

1:01:36

differently, like you're doing. Like you

1:01:38

are Mr. Fix It. And I'm sure now

1:01:41

that you're making the conscious decision

1:01:44

not to fix things, it's probably freaking

1:01:46

uncomfortable. You're like, oh man, I wanna

1:01:48

go fix my daughter's car so bad right now. but

1:01:53

you're making the choice to

1:01:55

say, no, I'm going to do this differently.

1:01:57

It doesn't feel good, but right

1:01:59

now

1:02:00

I'm in that that that time of going

1:02:02

against the current and soon it'll

1:02:04

start to feel more comfortable in that

1:02:06

new role

1:02:07

Well, yes, thank you. It is

1:02:09

it's even gosh tangibly that

1:02:12

I realized gosh I didn't spend an hour dealing

1:02:14

with that and it and the kid just

1:02:16

went and took care of it and they took care

1:02:18

of It and I have I do have one

1:02:20

daughter Thank good. I'll

1:02:23

call her out Eliza and she she'll

1:02:25

do that. She'll say so we'll be talking about something.

1:02:27

Wait

1:02:29

I don't want you to do anything about it. Like literally don't.

1:02:32

I'm going to be pissed if you do. Because this is, this

1:02:34

is, I'm a grown, she would say, I'm a

1:02:36

grown ass woman. And I want, she said,

1:02:38

I want to, I've let you take care of all this stuff and I don't

1:02:40

know how to do it. I want to know how

1:02:42

to, so, you know, and there's a time and place for fixing

1:02:45

things. But what you just said, life is

1:02:47

just a school. It sounds pithy, but you

1:02:49

got me thinking on that because how

1:02:51

often do we hear, especially out in the culture

1:02:53

right now about life

1:02:56

is hard, life sucks, life's not fair,

1:02:58

if we look at it and go not to

1:02:59

minimize anyone's experience

1:03:02

and the tragedies and traumas

1:03:05

and victimizations even that happen out there,

1:03:08

but to look at it and go, man, there are things that happen, but

1:03:10

if we look at it as a school

1:03:13

with an opportunity to look at that and to

1:03:15

figure out what can we learn from

1:03:17

that, to what you've said, I don't know how many times during

1:03:19

this, to be self aware of us

1:03:22

and how is it affecting us if I look

1:03:25

at it and say life can be a school

1:03:27

if I

1:03:29

let it but I will need to I think the next

1:03:31

thing he says I will need to be aware and choose

1:03:34

differently. That's

1:03:36

why I have you on these shows. You do treat life like a school

1:03:38

and I appreciate it. That's why it's fun

1:03:40

to hang with you. Thank you.

1:03:42

I love having you, Evan. This is such

1:03:44

a blessing to me because I feel like this

1:03:46

is part of the school. getting to

1:03:49

have conversations with you. It's

1:03:51

so much better having them with you than in my own

1:03:53

head.

1:03:54

I agree. I

1:03:56

do. I gotta admit, And you know, I

1:03:58

want to say this even to.

1:04:00

even though I talked about this is our conversation, not

1:04:03

talking to everybody out there, but for everybody out there,

1:04:05

listen too, man to take this

1:04:07

stuff, that's why I often say with the shows, the

1:04:09

best thing you can do is go talk with somebody

1:04:11

about it. Go talk now with a friend

1:04:14

or a spouse or whatever and grapple

1:04:16

with it like this, because just as we're talking about, so

1:04:19

I've spent three hours with

1:04:21

Renee, I read her,

1:04:23

Renee, with Vienna, I read her

1:04:25

book and yet I made

1:04:27

some notes on it and talking with you, I've come

1:04:30

out with, feel

1:04:31

like every time that I grapple with it, that

1:04:33

I question it, that

1:04:36

I discuss it with you,

1:04:38

or somebody who's studying

1:04:41

this stuff too, who's treating life as a school, man,

1:04:43

I come out with more, and that is what helps

1:04:45

me

1:04:46

engage

1:04:47

with it. And one shot, I think we all need to hear

1:04:49

that, man, just hearing something one time, just the knowledge,

1:04:52

it just does not, it's not enough. It's a start.

1:04:55

It's maybe, well, like you said, it's maybe the awareness,

1:04:57

but you got aware of your inner

1:04:59

child stuff, and yet you're going

1:05:02

every week or whatever you're doing, and you're working on it. And

1:05:04

work on it. Oh, I did want to ask that,

1:05:06

Renee. Is there a, I mean, obviously

1:05:08

we're talking about Vienna and her new book,

1:05:10

The Origins of You, but on

1:05:13

The Inner Child, do you have a favored

1:05:16

resource you could throw out on that?

1:05:19

If you don't know, Biggie, thought I'd ask. I don't,

1:05:21

you know, I haven't read,

1:05:23

oh, yes, absolutely, oh my goodness.

1:05:26

Gabrielle Bernstein, who's one of my favorite.

1:05:29

You've mentioned her before. I know her new book.

1:05:32

Yeah, her new book, Happy Days,

1:05:34

talks a lot about it. She talks about

1:05:38

IFS, Internal Family Systems, I

1:05:40

believe that's correct. But it's all

1:05:42

about

1:05:43

working with your inner children and understanding

1:05:46

that

1:05:47

they all had a role. Let's

1:05:49

keep using that, because it's such a perfect word

1:05:51

to describe

1:05:52

the situation that these inner children

1:05:55

get put in. in a role and

1:05:57

they get stuck there.

1:06:00

What happens is

1:06:02

when we start to realize,

1:06:05

oh,

1:06:06

perfectionist Renee, she

1:06:09

came to be, she decided to play that role

1:06:11

because at that point in her life,

1:06:14

she saw mom and dad who were these

1:06:16

beautiful parents who

1:06:18

did everything they could for her and her brother,

1:06:22

but they didn't always have the things that they wanted.

1:06:24

She's gonna be the one to do

1:06:27

the things that they wish they could do. So she's going

1:06:29

to make them proud. Boom. And she

1:06:31

locked into this role. And now everything

1:06:34

that she did was funneled through this role

1:06:36

of the perfectionist. And she made

1:06:38

it to Broadway. And she did all these things. And it was amazing.

1:06:41

But now she got to a point where it's like, this is uncomfortable.

1:06:44

This role doesn't suit me

1:06:46

anymore because adult Renee has grown

1:06:49

past it. And

1:06:51

recognizing that and then talking

1:06:53

to those inner children and letting them know, you

1:06:56

could now

1:06:57

play a different role for me instead

1:06:59

of making things harder for me. Let's work together.

1:07:02

Let's have fun in our lives. When

1:07:04

we make a mistake, instead of beating ourselves

1:07:06

up, let's say, that's funny. You know what? We're

1:07:09

going to dust ourselves off and get back up again

1:07:11

and laugh it off, right? And changing

1:07:14

the roles and the place that these inner

1:07:16

children have in our lives. So yeah, Happy

1:07:18

Days, fantastic

1:07:19

book. OK, well, there you go. We'll

1:07:22

end with that. That's what we're looking for, happier

1:07:24

days as we are not wearing our judgment

1:07:27

as a badge of honor.

1:07:29

It has some places maybe. I don't

1:07:31

know, we usually have to discern that, but hey,

1:07:34

thank you.

1:07:35

Such a gift.

1:07:36

Thank you for that. Thanks. Thanks.

1:07:39

Thanks. Thanks. Well,

1:07:41

co-hosting with Renee is just such

1:07:43

a gift. You can find her at

1:07:46

renee, R-E-N-E-E, marino.com.

1:07:50

And you'll do yourself so well to dig

1:07:52

into Vienna Feren's book, The Origins

1:07:55

of You, How breaking family

1:07:58

patterns can liberate the way we

1:08:00

live and love. You can join

1:08:02

Vienna on Instagram at

1:08:04

MindfulMFT. Friends,

1:08:08

thank you for tuning into the Self Helpful Podcast,

1:08:11

where I strive to help you and me

1:08:14

elevate our personal experience of life and

1:08:16

the way we show up for others. Stay driven

1:08:18

my friends.

1:08:25

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1:08:27

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1:08:29

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