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1:09

Hello and welcome to Fresh Take from

1:11

What Fresh Hell Laughing in the Face

1:14

of Motherhood. This is Margaret and today

1:16

I am talking to Dr. Alok Kanodzia,

1:18

otherwise known as Dr. K.

1:21

He is a former gaming addict

1:23

and Harvard trained psychiatrist who has

1:25

developed evidence based programs that help

1:28

tens of thousands of gamers overcome

1:30

their addiction and reclaim their attention

1:33

and time from the technologies that

1:35

consume it. He is the author

1:37

of How to Raise a Healthy

1:40

Gamer, an excellent book that I will

1:42

be dog earring throughout the

1:44

year. And that is

1:46

on sale now. Welcome Dr. K. Thanks so

1:48

much for talking to me. Thank you so much for having

1:50

me, Margaret. Let's talk. We

1:53

do some high level. We're not afraid

1:55

of brain science here on the podcast.

1:57

So let's start a little

1:59

bit with. as you do

2:01

in the book, the addictive properties

2:03

of these games, how they work

2:05

and how they're kind of specifically

2:07

targeting our brains to want to

2:09

play more and more. Absolutely. So

2:12

it's a great, great, great thing

2:14

to start with and understand. So

2:16

when most people think about video gaming,

2:19

we think about dopamine. So dopamine is

2:21

the neurotransmitter in our brain that is

2:23

responsible for pleasure, as well

2:25

as behavioral reinforcement and

2:28

anticipation and craving. So

2:30

if I do something that is fun, I enjoy

2:33

it, and then my brain

2:36

wants it again. And this is where

2:38

a lot of parents think that, okay, so like it's about

2:40

dopamine, my kids are kind of addicted. But

2:42

if you look at the science of

2:44

addiction, what we find is that pleasure

2:47

is not enough to addict someone. So

2:49

all addictive substances or behaviors do two

2:51

things. One is give pleasure, and the

2:53

second is take away pain. And what

2:55

we tend to find, especially with gaming, is

2:58

that it's very good at the latter. So

3:01

we know that playing a video game

3:03

will suppress our amygdala in our limbic

3:05

system. So these are the parts

3:07

of our brain that experience negative emotions. So

3:10

people will use gaming as an escape. Like

3:12

I certainly did. So I sort of fell

3:14

into this trap where I was

3:16

failing out of college. And the

3:18

thought of failing out of college was

3:20

so shaming. And like I didn't

3:22

know how to fix it, right? Because once you

3:24

get an F on a transcript, technically

3:27

like you can't fix it. Like that's

3:29

never gonna go away. Like your GPA

3:31

is permanently decreased. This will go on

3:33

your permanent record as they used to

3:35

tell us as kids, yup. So

3:37

there's no coming back from that. So then the

3:39

negative emotion from that, the only choice I had

3:41

was to play a game. And then while I'm

3:44

playing the game, I forget all

3:46

the negativity. And so over time,

3:48

what we're seeing is that game

3:50

designers are either intentionally or stumbling

3:53

upon more and more

3:56

neuroscience kind

3:58

of vulnerabilities that game. will prey

4:00

on. So it's giving pleasure and we explain

4:02

this a lot in How to Raise a

4:05

Healthy Gamer. So giving pleasure, removing pain, and

4:07

this is what's also really confusing for a

4:09

lot of parents because they'll notice that their

4:11

child is playing, but they're not like laughing,

4:13

right? They're not like having a great time.

4:15

They seem to be almost zombie mode. And

4:18

that's because the brain really strives for that

4:20

emotional suppression. And it almost gives kids like

4:22

an artificial sense. It's not really tranquility, but

4:25

it's like a numbness is a better way

4:27

to put it. Yeah, I thought

4:29

this was really interesting because I definitely

4:31

was tuned into like, oh, it's reward

4:33

and you're like a mouse hitting the

4:35

lever. But what is interesting,

4:38

and I can apply it to

4:40

my own Candy Crush addiction, is

4:42

that I noticed at some point

4:44

that Candy Crush changed. There's a

4:46

little thing that comes up. It

4:49

says, like, crush your stress away

4:51

or something. They're billing it as

4:53

a calming agent. And it really

4:55

is that it allows

4:57

you to turn your brain off. And all

4:59

of us have that feeling and maybe more

5:01

so since the pandemic of like just kind

5:04

of the gaping maw of fear

5:06

that kind of is under the rotten floorboards

5:08

of our life at all times. And it's like,

5:10

oh, I don't have to think about that because I've got

5:12

to crush this candy. Yeah, it's so well

5:14

put. I mean, there are even studies that

5:17

show that people who have been through traumatic

5:19

events, if they play Tetris, there's a really

5:21

famous study. Oh, Tetris is the best for

5:24

this. And it turns out that it actually

5:26

protects people from potentially developing PTSD because it

5:28

does numb the mind. So there

5:30

are even situations where, you know, we can

5:33

take advantage of this principle. The

5:35

challenge is that for

5:37

a lot of kids, especially they don't

5:39

know how to take advantage of video

5:41

games, video games take advantage of them.

5:44

And the more that games are evolving,

5:46

the more we're seeing that it kind

5:49

of takes advantage of like more and

5:51

more neuroscientific vulnerabilities. So let's start there

5:53

because we often like on the podcast

5:55

in kind of section one to set

5:57

up the problem. So Is. Our.

6:01

Video Games. I guess my first

6:03

question is this issue of addiction

6:05

that I feel. Like addiction it

6:07

feels to people. Maybe it's used for

6:09

too many different things I can. you.

6:12

Actually, be addicted to video games in

6:14

the same way that we think of

6:16

someone being addicted to cigarettes? Let's say

6:18

yeah. I think the answer the absolutely

6:20

yes. There's some debate in the academic

6:22

psychiatric community about whether it's truly an

6:24

addiction or not by hiding from and

6:26

neuroscience and point like it's a no

6:29

brainer. So let's understand a couple of

6:31

minutes. the first thing about defining an

6:33

addiction. Is. That it should come

6:35

with an impairment of function. So are any

6:37

addictive substance? Or how do you know? whether

6:39

you're addicted to alcohol Or it's like just

6:42

you know, two glasses of wine at night

6:44

and that's like a healthy way to de

6:46

stress. So the question is, whatever the behavior

6:48

as whatever the substances doesn't interfere with your

6:51

life and somewhere. So. Does it

6:53

impact your professional life? Your academic life?

6:55

Your relationships? Your physical health and mental

6:57

health? And. What we see

7:00

would gaming is that Absolutely Yes, It

7:02

can imperil all of those things. That's

7:04

a check. Yup, that's a yes. And

7:06

so we also know from a neuroscience

7:08

perspective that if you look it's brain

7:10

scan studies and things like that. We

7:12

see of these three phases. Of.

7:15

Addiction. That can absolutely happen. And video game.

7:17

So phase number one is it gives you

7:19

pleasure and asset. So that's like the early

7:21

stage when you first start playing a game.

7:23

It's just fun. The second phase starts to

7:26

side and where you develop tolerance. To.

7:28

The pleasure. So it's not really

7:30

fun anymore, but it is suppressing

7:32

emotional circuitry. So. It's kind

7:35

of. Still, it's not so much fun, but

7:37

it's kind of the it's an escape. And

7:39

then we get into the third phase

7:41

where we sort of get trapped, where that's

7:43

our primary way of managing emotions. And that's

7:46

what really makes an unhealthy gamer. As when

7:48

we start to use video games, Not.

7:50

is a form of recreation or

7:53

an adjunct to our life but

7:55

when it starts replacing things in

7:57

our life and that's what we

8:00

really focus on is helping people

8:02

rebuild lives quite

8:35

matter because even if your

8:37

kid is severely addicted, moderately addicted,

8:40

mildly addicted, not addicted, you as

8:42

a parent still have a responsibility

8:44

to help them develop a healthier

8:46

relationship with technology, no matter where

8:48

they are in the spectrum. And

8:51

that's what we really focus on. That makes

8:53

sense. So it doesn't necessarily, it fits

8:55

for all gamers, basically, this philosophy.

8:57

Yeah, absolutely. Right. And that's the

8:59

goal of the book. It's not

9:02

just about conquering addiction. It absolutely

9:04

includes that. But even if your

9:06

child is not quite addicted but

9:09

has a vulnerability, we want

9:11

to equip parents with the tools necessary

9:13

so that they can be vigilant. So

9:15

it does not become a problem. Let's

9:17

talk about games. Are all games created

9:19

equal? Are we talking about, are

9:21

there specific, because I think that

9:23

we, as parents, I hear a

9:26

lot of people talking about first-person

9:28

shooter games, that's a different category

9:30

than say Candy Crush, which may

9:32

seem harmless. How do you talk

9:34

to parents about kind of categories of

9:36

games and are all video games created

9:38

equal? So all video games are not

9:41

created equal, but it's not that there

9:43

is an objective spectrum that some games

9:45

are better and some games are worse.

9:47

So there's some really fascinating research out

9:50

of University of Toronto that shows that

9:52

human beings have different personalities. Shock it.

9:54

And different personalities gravitate

9:56

towards different kinds of games. So

9:59

for example, there's a kind of game

10:01

called the massively multiplayer online RPG.

10:03

So World of Warcraft was very,

10:05

very famous about maybe about 10

10:07

years ago. And we know that

10:09

kids on the autism spectrum are

10:11

like 50% more likely to have

10:14

behavioral problems if they

10:17

play MMORPGs. We

10:19

know that some kids will get addicted

10:21

to first person shooter games, some people

10:23

like women, especially girls will get addicted

10:25

to games that have more of a

10:27

community or social element to them. So

10:30

it's not that one is objectively worse than

10:32

the other. I mean, I do think that

10:34

there are in general healthier games and in

10:37

general more addictive games, games that use a

10:39

lot of predatory mechanics like

10:41

loot boxes and microtransactions and

10:43

very addictive game loops. Gotcha

10:45

games is I mean, that's even the category

10:48

what they're called. So there are better and

10:50

worse. But what my experience has been is

10:52

that it's very individualized. And it's not like,

10:54

you know, the solution, I've never seen a

10:56

solution. I've worked with hundreds of gamers at

10:58

this point. We at Healthy

11:00

Gamer have worked at tens of thousands

11:03

of gamers. And the solution has never

11:05

been stop playing this game and start

11:07

playing this game. Play something else. It's

11:09

an attitude that goes with how

11:11

you approach gaming in general. Absolutely. So

11:13

the same games that I was addicted

11:15

to and failed out of college with,

11:18

I still play those same games today,

11:20

but in a far healthier way. I

11:22

am talking to Dr. Kay, who is

11:24

the author of How to Raise a Healthy

11:27

Gamer. And when we come back, we're going

11:29

to start talking about how to talk

11:31

to your gamer. Margaret,

11:33

exciting news. I am

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12:52

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your order of hero bread. So

14:15

we've heard part one. We're

14:18

thinking to ourselves, okay, I get it.

14:20

We've got some gaming problems going

14:23

on at my house. And

14:25

this book for everyone listening, it's

14:27

extremely well structured, I feel like

14:30

it's chapter by chapter. It kind

14:32

of lays out. It's like a

14:34

what fresh L podcast book. It

14:36

lays out the problem. And then we start to

14:38

talk about how we start

14:41

having these conversations with our kids.

14:44

And you start by

14:46

talking about assessing your child's readiness

14:48

for change. We kind of started

14:51

the conversation at where this

14:53

problem might be. And

14:56

I guess where do you

14:58

start the conversation with kids about gaming

15:00

and where they may need to start?

15:03

Yeah. So, so it's a beautiful question. So I

15:05

think let's take a step back and kind of

15:07

think a little bit about our approach, which is

15:09

oftentimes confusing for parents or surprising, because a lot

15:11

of parents will look at their gaming, their child

15:13

gaming, and they're like, how do I get them

15:16

to stop? And one of the

15:18

core features that I think has made our program so

15:20

successful is when you as a parent, try to get

15:22

your kid to stop. Chances are

15:24

your kid will resist you. And

15:27

so you can try to force them, but

15:29

basically like it's a war between you and

15:31

your child. And this, even

15:33

if you succeed, it comes at a very

15:36

high cost. You have to have be constantly

15:38

vigilant. You know, they're kind of, their

15:40

heart isn't in it. It's kind of like you're

15:42

forcing them to do something. And I'm sure that

15:44

your listeners all know that getting your kid excited

15:47

about doing the right thing is the best way

15:49

to parent. So we start in a very interesting

15:51

way. And this is what I kind of have

15:53

to do is in addiction, psychiatry. So I patients

15:55

who come into my office who are addicted to

15:58

stuff and I don't control. their

16:00

lives. Like I have to convince them to stop

16:03

drinking, right? They have to want to stop drinking

16:05

because they see me one hour a week and

16:07

the rest of the week, they have to police

16:09

themselves. So we use those

16:11

same evidence-based techniques with our children

16:14

and it starts by talking

16:16

to your child about what

16:18

they think about gaming. And one

16:20

of the biggest problems that parents run into is

16:22

that children can never admit

16:24

that they have a problem because

16:27

the parent will use it

16:29

as ammunition to take the game away. It's like

16:31

a defensiveness, right? That like, don't come

16:33

from my thing, right? And parents are

16:36

just perplexed. They're like, how can they

16:38

not see that this is causing

16:40

a problem and they're working so hard

16:43

to convince them? And the more that

16:45

your child knows it's a problem, the

16:47

more unconvinced they will be as

16:50

long as they feel unsafe. So it

16:52

matters where we start this conversation because

16:54

we don't want the conversation to start

16:56

at going to our corners in threat

16:58

mode, basically. Absolutely beautifully said Margaret. So

17:01

that's why when we start with what

17:03

we recommend is take at least one

17:05

month to not impose any limits. Just

17:07

talk to your child about their understanding

17:10

about gaming. Really try to learn. And

17:12

this really works wonders. It disarms a lot

17:14

of defensiveness. We'll even tell parents, we counsel

17:16

parents like, and there's a lot of detailed

17:19

dialogue and stuff that parents can sort of

17:21

build off of that, you know,

17:23

you tell your kid that for the next month, I want

17:25

to talk to you once a week for

17:27

about half an hour to an hour, just to

17:29

better understand gaming. And then at the end of

17:31

that month, I may hopefully we can decide to

17:33

make some changes, but like, I'm not going to

17:35

change anything for a month. And this is really

17:37

shocking to parents and kids. They're like, what is

17:39

this? But the whole point is that we want

17:41

to create dialogue. We want to create a team.

17:44

It's interesting. We've talked to a lot

17:46

of people, not about gaming. And I

17:48

think of Dr. Lynetta Willis, who we

17:50

talked about, it's getting on the same

17:52

side of the net of the problem.

17:54

It's you and I against a problem.

17:57

She talks about it in marriage, basically,

17:59

but you have a very similar

18:01

philosophy in the book that, hey,

18:03

video games are becoming a problem

18:06

in our family structure or in

18:08

our life structure. So how

18:11

are you and I, child of

18:13

mine and I, going to reckon

18:16

with the problem of video games

18:18

as opposed to I'm on

18:20

this side of the net and child and video games

18:22

are on the other side of the net and I'm

18:24

battling both of them? Yeah, absolutely. So that is something

18:27

we outlined and it's like you're 100% correct and

18:29

I agree 100%. It's

18:31

foundational to parenting this idea of

18:33

the more we can be you and

18:35

I against a problem, child,

18:38

the better results we're going to have

18:40

versus me and child and I are fighting. Yeah,

18:45

and I mean, we've seen crazy cases of,

18:47

you know, I've had parents desperate calling me

18:49

that, you know, they locked up the power

18:51

cord to the PlayStation and

18:54

then the child learned how to pick locks

18:56

on YouTube and would go downstairs at one

18:58

in the morning, pick the lock and play

19:00

from 1 a.m. to 5 a.m. And

19:03

so as long as your child is not

19:05

on board, which a lot of parents think

19:07

is impossible, they're like, how can my child

19:09

ever be on board on cutting back on

19:11

their gaming? And what we tend to find

19:13

is, I mean, literally Healthy Gamer was created

19:15

because we had literally millions

19:17

of gamers who wanted to play fewer video

19:19

games and they just didn't know how. And

19:21

the key thing is that once you and

19:24

your child are on the same team, that

19:26

makes it like night and day. Once you

19:28

all are working together to tackle a problem.

19:30

Yeah, and this makes sense for us because

19:32

we've talked about it in so many

19:35

different realms from the way

19:37

we feed our kids, the way we interact

19:40

with our kids in school, that we

19:42

want it to say, hey, this is

19:44

a problem or this is not aligning

19:47

with the values of our family structure

19:49

or this is not working because you're crying every

19:51

day before you have to go to school. Like,

19:53

let's figure out this problem. Let's

19:56

you and I be partners against this

19:58

problem. Now, are Are there

20:00

cases where you see there

20:02

must be, I'm thinking of people who are

20:05

listening and saying, but my kid would say video

20:07

games are never the problem. Video games are great.

20:09

I don't, there's no such thing. Like how do

20:11

we get our kids to conceive of video games

20:13

as a problem? Yeah. So that is such a

20:15

great question. And you're saying you can imagine that

20:17

there are kids out there who will say they

20:19

aren't a problem. My experience has been

20:21

that 100% of kids will say that. That

20:24

they're not a problem. Right. Yeah. I

20:27

love them. They're fun. I

20:29

love the new thing because I grew up on the cusp

20:31

of video. We had an Atari, I'm dating myself.

20:33

I grew up on the cusp of video

20:35

games, but now it does. I think it's

20:37

gotten so much more confusing for parents because

20:39

maybe it is social time. Wait, they are

20:41

hanging out with their friends. Like I'm completely

20:43

lost in what is hanging with friends and

20:46

what is just numbing in front

20:48

of a video game. I mean, and this is

20:50

why parents are so, they're at a loss of

20:52

how to proceed because all of our standard tactics

20:54

as parents don't work with video games. These

20:57

are my social life. That's not the worst. We've

20:59

even had kids who say, mom, dad, you're like, okay, you

21:01

have to, you got to stop playing video games because your

21:03

grades need to be good because why do I have grades

21:05

need to be good? So you can

21:08

go to college, so you can get a job, so you can support

21:10

a family. They're like, oh no, no, mom, dad, y'all don't understand. I'm

21:12

going to be a professional gamer. I'm going to be a streamer. That

21:15

kid who won $3 million playing Fortnite

21:17

has ruined all of our lives. So all of

21:19

these standard things don't work, right? The kids say,

21:21

I want to go pro. And now you're confused.

21:23

It's like, hold on a second. Do I have

21:25

a child prodigy who could be making millions of

21:27

dollars a year? We've worked

21:29

with gamers who are parents who have hired

21:31

coaches for their children so that they can

21:34

become. I know a kid who's on their

21:36

college sports team playing video games. Absolutely. You

21:38

can get scholarships, right? So the kid comes

21:40

to you and they're like, mm-hmm, that doesn't

21:42

work like that. It's not bad for me.

21:45

It's good for me. So now parents

21:47

get confused. They're like, what do we do? And

21:49

that's why it works. We've seen all of it.

21:51

I've worked professionally with e-sports teams as well. We

21:54

have so much experience with this. So let's understand.

21:56

So the key thing to understand is that when

21:58

people get addicted to video games. They

22:00

are fulfilling certain neuroscientific and

22:03

psychological needs. This is

22:05

how games have become more addictive over time.

22:07

So like you said, back in the days

22:09

of Atari, maybe we got a little bit

22:11

of dopamine here there, but there's no sense

22:13

of professional success. There's no

22:15

sense of like, this makes me proud

22:17

of who I am. There's

22:19

no sense of community and friendship. So

22:22

the reason games have gotten more addictive

22:24

is because they are actually fulfilling more

22:27

of our psychological needs. And

22:29

so this is also what confuses parents because when you

22:31

take the game away, you are getting

22:34

such a weird amount of resistance

22:36

because you're not just taking their game away. You're

22:39

taking away their career. You're taking away their

22:41

social circle. And that's why you get twice

22:43

or three times as much resistance as you

22:46

would expect when you took away their Legos.

22:48

Right. So if we look at their toys,

22:50

there's a discrepancy. It's weird. Games are so much

22:52

more addictive. And so interestingly enough, what

22:54

tends to work incredibly well is when you talk

22:57

to your children and you ask them, what do

22:59

you like about the video game? What does the

23:01

game do for you? And then the

23:03

child will say, you know, let's say we're talking

23:05

about a high school kid so common who

23:08

doesn't have many friends, is getting bullied,

23:10

is maybe going through puberty and has

23:12

acne and doesn't feel confident about the

23:14

way they look. So you

23:16

look at their social options. I can go to

23:18

school. I can be bullied. People see the way

23:21

that I look. My voice is cracking. It's very

23:23

mortifying. I was like that. And

23:25

then there's the video game where you get to

23:27

create your own avatar. You can be as sexy

23:29

as you want. Right. People,

23:31

you get to decide who you get to

23:34

hang out with. And at school, what are

23:36

your options? You have options from maybe a

23:38

hundred kids, maybe a couple hundred kids. But

23:40

on the internet, you have access to billions

23:42

of people and you can find

23:44

the dozen people who like the same shows

23:46

you do are empathic. You can

23:49

connect with them. They like the same games.

23:51

You guys all laugh at the same jokes.

23:53

And so why would a child

23:56

choose real life over

23:58

this online community? The beautiful

24:01

thing is that once you get to that, you

24:03

can talk to your child about, okay, let's play this

24:05

tape through to the end. So what does this mean

24:07

for your life? Do you want friends in the real

24:09

world? And this is where if

24:11

you've done kind of rolled with resistance properly

24:13

and created a non-judgmental safe space, the child

24:16

will say, absolutely yes. If I

24:18

could get this in the real world, I would want it.

24:20

The whole reason I like the video game is because I

24:22

can't get it in the real world. And

24:24

then we get to a beautiful moment because that's when

24:26

we say, okay, let's see what we can figure

24:28

out. Let's see if we can move things

24:30

forward in the real world in some way. I know it's going

24:33

to be hard, but let's see if

24:35

we can foster your relationships. And

24:37

then we get to a beautiful point where both

24:39

of y'all are actually working towards the same goal.

24:41

Even the reason they're playing the video game is

24:43

to create a sense of community and connection with

24:45

other people. That same drive,

24:47

which is sending them to the video game,

24:49

we can now harness that drive and

24:51

move them back into the real world. And

24:54

when that same drive that is pushing them into

24:56

the video game gets harnessed and redirected

24:58

in the right way, that's when we

25:00

see a lot of the combat go

25:02

down. That's when we see two people

25:04

on the same team because now we're all on the

25:06

same team. Let's try to help you create

25:09

friends in real life. I am talking

25:11

to Dr. Alok Kanojia, otherwise known as

25:13

Dr. K. And he is the author

25:15

of How to Raise a Healthy Gamer.

25:18

And we're going to talk when we

25:20

get back about implementing what we're talking

25:22

about now. How does it actually look to

25:24

set these boundaries with gamers? So

25:26

I'm going to dive in at the research

25:28

again, looking into metabolic health and more importantly,

25:31

metabolic flexibility, which turns out is the key

25:34

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Thank you Lumen for sponsoring this

26:35

episode. Hello Hellions! You know

26:37

we listen to a lot of podcasts that

26:39

aren't our own and today we want to

26:41

tell you about a podcast that really speaks

26:43

to us and will speak to any parent

26:46

of a child with special education needs. The

26:48

podcast is called Understood Explains. The season of

26:50

the show is hosted by teacher and special

26:52

education expert Juliana Otubay

26:55

and it's all about how to

26:57

navigate individual education plans also known

26:59

as IEPs. The latest season

27:01

of Understood Explains covers topics like how

27:03

to tell if your child needs

27:06

an IEP and it busts common myths

27:08

about special education. One of my kids

27:10

has an IEP and I found this

27:13

podcast so validating and so helpful. I

27:15

feel better equipped to advocate for my

27:17

child's educational needs now. This podcast is

27:19

helpful for parents in many different situations

27:22

whether your child already has an IEP

27:24

or you just starting to wonder if they

27:26

might need extra support in the classroom. Juliana

27:28

has content for kids of all ages and

27:30

for kids who are learning English as an

27:32

additional language as well. To listen to Understood

27:35

Explains, search for Understood

27:37

Explains in your podcast

27:39

app is Understood Explains.

27:43

So we understand that

27:45

I really like the idea that these

27:48

skills that you're working on and you

27:51

talk in the book which I think is

27:53

always really important about how this affects kids

27:56

with different needs, kids with different personality

27:58

set points. think

28:00

and I have seen for

28:02

kids who struggle socially and

28:04

kids on the spectrum that communication

28:07

is easier within the games and

28:09

that in some ways for

28:12

my family it's been a positive. Like

28:14

it's been a way to exercise certain

28:16

skills but then we

28:19

have to translate those skills into

28:21

real-world settings because we don't, maybe

28:24

we will someday but for now we're still

28:26

not living in the metaverse. We're not living

28:28

with the goggles on and just talking to

28:30

imaginary or people outside of ourselves. And

28:32

so how do we

28:35

start to set up boundaries

28:37

that say hey this may

28:39

be giving us some good skills in this world

28:41

but this is not the world

28:43

and translating and bridging those

28:45

skills and getting off

28:47

the games and back maybe into real life.

28:50

Yeah it's a beautiful question. So we find that

28:52

boundary setting which we have a whole section in

28:54

the book about you know how to set boundaries

28:56

and we've had tons of parents go to hundreds

28:58

of our parents go through our program and it

29:01

works incredibly well. So one of the most confusing

29:03

thing for a lot of parents is

29:05

that the way that they set boundaries is

29:07

actually sabotaging their progress. Yeah talk about that

29:09

because I thought this was really interesting. Yeah

29:12

so it's really interesting so let's just take

29:14

the classic scenario okay so you tell your

29:16

kid it's bedtime right so

29:18

bedtime is at 10 p.m. you tell

29:20

them at like 8 30 after they've

29:23

gone they're going up after dinner right so you're

29:25

like bedtime is at 10 o'clock and they say

29:27

okay I understand and then you remind

29:29

them again at 9 30 hey bedtime is soon like you

29:31

should probably stop they say sure 9

29:34

55 rolls around you're like bedtime and they're like yeah

29:36

I hear you right and then 10 15

29:39

hey bedtime was 15 minutes ago 10 30 rolls around 10

29:41

45 rolls around 11 o'clock

29:43

rolls around you are a parent you

29:46

have things to do outside

29:48

of policing your child's gaming you may have

29:50

a job you have a household around you have bills

29:52

to pay you have other kids you have sick family

29:54

members got to take care of your dog got to

29:56

do this got to do this got to do this

29:59

then you go up at 11 o'clock and you

30:01

say, enough is enough. No games for

30:04

a week. So we're emotional. We're really,

30:06

you know, frustrated. This creates

30:08

somewhat of a fight. And then finally

30:10

you get them to bed and it took so much

30:12

energy to put them to bed. Now,

30:14

a lot of parents think that they have, they're

30:17

exasperated, but they think this is the only option

30:19

that I've got. But if you really look at

30:21

the science of behavioral reinforcement, you've made things worse,

30:23

not better. The first thing is you

30:25

told them 15 times that they need to go

30:27

to bed and they did not listen to you.

30:29

So what are you actually reinforcing? You're reinforcing that

30:33

one out of 15 times they need to listen

30:35

to you, but the other 14 you can

30:37

be ignored because there's no consequence for ignoring

30:39

what you do. What we

30:41

find with so many parents is that

30:43

they are training their children to ignore

30:45

what they say. We have had

30:47

a guest on the

30:49

podcast who is a dog trainer who talks

30:51

about this very thing that you only, you

30:53

train a dog to sit when you say

30:55

sit, not when you say sit, sit, sit,

30:57

sit, sit, sit, sit, sit, sit, and that's

30:59

right. It's one time, not 15 times.

31:02

The next thing that you've done is you've

31:05

set a boundary when you yourself are

31:07

emotional. So then what's happened

31:09

is when you say no games for a week, have

31:12

you thought about all the things that you

31:14

need to do that week? Are you

31:16

traveling for work? Is a babysitter coming?

31:18

Is this happening? Is that happening? Are

31:20

you going to be able to enforce

31:22

that boundary? And oftentimes what parents will

31:25

do is in a moment of frustration,

31:27

they will set a boundary that they

31:29

don't have the capability of enforcing.

31:31

Right. This is like the time I told

31:33

my kids we're never going outside again ever.

31:35

It's actually not a great boundary as it

31:37

turns out, but these things come out of

31:39

our mouths when we're emotional. Absolutely. And

31:42

so then now let's think about it from the

31:44

kids' perspective. So mom said never going outside again.

31:46

And then when you go outside again, what

31:48

does the child learn about whether your

31:51

boundaries need to be respected or not?

31:53

Not so much. Not so much. So

31:56

you're actually training your children to ignore your

31:58

words, which is what's so frustrating. And

32:00

it feels like everything is a fight. So

32:03

oftentimes what we tell parents to

32:05

do is really think through boundary

32:07

reinforcement, really calmly decide with your

32:09

child. And oftentimes parents are

32:11

loathe to do this because it means that

32:13

there is less gaming. I mean, there's more

32:16

gaming than they would feel happy with. And

32:18

that's actually okay. So what we

32:20

sort of recommend is that you start small, but the main

32:23

thing that you need to do is train your child

32:25

to listen to your words. So

32:28

we recommend something called the 25% rule, which

32:30

is this is where you are. Let's say

32:32

this is the goal that you have. Cut

32:34

that goal in half and cut it in half again, and

32:36

that's where you should start. And over

32:39

time, what we want is boundaries that are enforced

32:41

100% and your child needs to

32:44

learn that your word is law.

32:46

And then over time, once they learn that lesson,

32:49

then you can set additional boundaries

32:51

over time. So this

32:53

is where we start small. So we

32:55

recommend that parents pick the smallest hill

32:57

that they are willing to die on,

32:59

right? So you pick a tiny little

33:01

thing, which is you're going to

33:03

put your shoes away before you

33:05

start playing a video game. Something so small. And

33:08

then over time, you add to that. And

33:11

then we're also working with their resistance at

33:13

the same time. And what we'll tend to

33:15

see is within about six months to a

33:17

year, like the household will have completely transformed.

33:19

This is something that we talk about a

33:21

lot. And I think it's very

33:24

well explained in the book that what

33:26

happens a lot with children is that

33:28

we hear a rule, right? Like, well, you

33:30

know, go in and put them back in

33:32

bed and don't engage or whatever it happens to be.

33:35

And then people are like, I tried, it doesn't work. That

33:38

it's got to be a month of effort

33:40

before you even gauge whether or not it's

33:42

working. And I think that the tactics in

33:45

this book are very much that way. This

33:47

is about consistency. It's not about a

33:50

rule that's going to change everything

33:52

overnight. Absolutely. And that's also

33:54

why we say, Sophie, if you look at a

33:56

change, the smaller the changes, the faster it'll happen.

33:59

That's smart. And then you get the small win

34:01

and it convinces you, oh, this is gonna work. Absolutely,

34:03

right? So, and this is where we also talk a

34:05

lot about the work that parents need to do on

34:07

themselves because if your child is failing out and you

34:09

want them to get A's, D's is

34:12

progress. But the challenge is that oftentimes

34:14

as parents, progress is insufficient for us.

34:16

So we actually don't reinforce it. We're

34:18

like, this is not enough, this is

34:20

not enough, this is not enough. Right.

34:23

Our life is like January at the gym. It's like, well, I'm gonna

34:25

go get in shape. And then by January 15th, you're like, I'm not

34:27

in shape. Nevermind, I'll just forget about that.

34:30

So small wins over time. So

34:32

a 1% change in direction over

34:34

the course of, let's say,

34:36

traveling a thousand miles will end you up

34:38

in a completely different place. And

34:41

that's what we find really works. And

34:43

another thing I just want to underline

34:45

because I have found this is the

34:47

big difference maker in my home is

34:49

engaging your child. Like having conversations for

34:52

us, it became like we're rushing

34:54

home to just get on screens and do

34:57

our video games. And then what about homework

34:59

and it's dinner and it's a wrestling match

35:01

and having a conversation in our home that

35:03

was how long do you think

35:05

you need to decompress at the end of

35:07

school? And we kind of decided at

35:09

4.30, they get home at 3.30, that's an

35:11

hour that works well. But that now I

35:13

find myself in a phase where I can just

35:16

look at my watch and say, guys, it's 4.35.

35:19

And they're like, oh, oh, that's right. We did

35:21

make this agreement to get off screens. And it's

35:23

like they have a certain level of

35:25

buy-in about 4.30 that we're not

35:28

fighting about video games

35:30

anymore. I'm just saying, oh, or if

35:32

I have to go out even, I'll say keep an eye on

35:34

the clock at Just

35:36

watch for 4.30. 4.30 means it's

35:38

screen. They decided it and somehow the

35:41

yoke of that is so much lighter

35:43

than me yelling at everybody about screens.

35:46

Absolutely. And that's the thing that so many

35:48

parents find unbelievable that

35:50

your child would regulate themselves.

35:53

But that's literally the point, right? So the goal

35:55

is to raise a healthy gamer. The

35:57

goal is to prepare your child. for

36:00

a world where they will have

36:02

to regulate their own technology usage,

36:04

right? 20 years old, 30 years

36:06

old, technology is going to get

36:08

more addictive over time. So we

36:10

really want to teach them how

36:12

to restrain themselves instead of imposing

36:14

artificial restrictions as a parent. Because

36:17

then the moment that the parenting goes away,

36:19

they'll go crazy. So we have

36:21

to teach them how to be motivated themselves.

36:23

And that's what we find. And your story

36:25

is literally what we see time and time

36:28

and time again, which is when the kid

36:30

is involved in the process. They

36:32

have buy-in instead of being like

36:34

the enemy. And so they'll be

36:36

self-motivated, which sounds perplexing to parents.

36:38

Yeah, yeah. But it works. It really does.

36:41

Dr. K, there's so much more in this

36:43

book. Everyone check out How to Raise a

36:45

Healthy Gamer. It's on sale now, as we

36:47

say, wherever books are sold. Where is like,

36:49

where do we find the book? People know

36:52

where to find a book in 2024. But

36:54

tell our audience where else they can find

36:56

you and your work, because I know this resonated

36:58

with a lot of people today. Sure, yeah. So

37:00

we have a YouTube channel, Healthy

37:02

Gamer GG, where we upload videos

37:04

frequently. It's interesting because our core

37:06

audience is actually your

37:08

kids. So about 5 million

37:11

of people's kids watch us every month. But

37:13

we do have a lot of great stuff

37:15

for parents. So if you better want to

37:17

understand your children, and we've got some great

37:19

content on there for parents, just check out

37:21

Healthy Gamer GG on YouTube, or check out

37:23

our website, healthygamer.gg. And

37:26

there's a parenting section in there. Awesome. And the

37:28

book How to Raise a Healthy Gamer

37:30

is on sale now. Dr. K, thanks

37:32

so much for talking to me today. Thank you

37:34

so much, Margaret. Take care. Oh,

37:46

hey, everybody. It's us, Blair and Molly,

37:48

your old pals from Toddler Purgatory, two

37:51

moms who are also actors who are

37:53

also creative beings who sometimes feel stuck.

37:55

And this is our new podcast. I'm

37:58

sticking it with Blair and Molly. Molly,

38:00

what happens when your creative spark

38:03

just seems to disappear? Gone. Phew,

38:06

bye, see ya! What happens when

38:08

life gets in the way of your creativity instead

38:10

of nourishing it? That's what happened

38:12

to Molly and me. We felt like the

38:14

thing that drove us creatively, tough working and

38:16

impending doom had in fact been ended. Totally.

38:19

So we decided to do something about it. And

38:22

that was, steal ideas about getting

38:24

unstuck from the most creative people we can

38:26

find. We talked to guests

38:28

about how to break through the mucky,

38:30

gluey, sticky wall that can get between

38:32

you and your creativity. We

38:35

hear about their journeys, their successes, their

38:37

challenges, and even their bougie coffee shop

38:39

orders. And we're not

38:41

just talking Bob Ross type paint on paper

38:43

artists here, but we talk to them too. We're

38:46

talking to actors, creative directors, dancers, and people

38:49

who are working hard to be their best

38:51

creative self in a world that can

38:53

sometimes feel real uncreative. We all

38:55

have something to teach each other, so let's

38:57

steal their ideas together. Join us, won't you,

38:59

as we deep dive into how to unstick

39:01

ourselves from the life gunk that can get

39:04

in the way of our creative

39:06

freedom. Pandemic, school calendar, world events,

39:08

lack of sleep, oh get out of there

39:10

life gunk! And let's get back

39:12

to your best creative self. Subscribe

39:14

to Unsticking It with Blair Molly. You're not

39:16

gonna want to miss an episode. Unsticking

39:19

It with Blair Molly. Because sometimes

39:21

life sucks. Unsticking it.

39:28

When it comes to raising kids, there's so much to

39:30

consider. Things like, what do we feed them? When do

39:32

we feed them? How do they sleep? What does

39:34

it look like to raise kind kids? How

39:36

does their nervous system work? How do I

39:39

keep my self calm? What are my triggers?

39:41

There's so much that comes into play. And

39:43

we are distilling all of that information

39:45

for you at Voices of Your Village

39:48

podcast, where we bring experts in the

39:50

field of early childhood and education and

39:52

psychology and across the board so that

39:54

you don't have to comb the internet

39:56

for information. You get to show up

39:58

and hang out and have... shame-free,

40:00

judgment-free conversations and insights into what

40:02

it looks like to raise kind,

40:05

empathetic, emotionally intelligent humans. I'm Alyssa

40:07

Blask Campbell of a master's degree

40:09

in early childhood education. I'm a

40:12

mom of two and I am

40:14

walking this journey right alongside you

40:16

doing this work. Come hang out

40:19

with me at Voices of Your

40:21

Village and we can dive into

40:24

real conversations with actionable tips.