0:17

Hey, and welcome to what Future.

0:19

I am your host, Josh Witzapolski, and

0:22

I gotta say, I gotta

0:25

tell you, folks, it's the beginning

0:27

of the end, or where is the end of the

0:29

beginning? I think we're all

0:31

grappling with the new reality that we're

0:33

in, the reality of Apple's

0:37

VR headset, the Vision Pro, a

0:40

thirty five dollars device that

0:42

looks like a pair of ski goggles

0:46

and also like every other VR headset that

0:49

is going to change the world or absolutely

0:52

not change the world, as you

0:54

may know. As you probably know, last week,

0:56

we had on Mark German from

0:58

Bloomberg whotually perfectly

1:01

got pretty much all of these announcements

1:04

reported out ahead of Apple's actual

1:06

event, and we

1:09

talked a lot about this thing, and I though, to

1:11

be honest, I was a little bit in disbelief when we discussed

1:13

it. My feeling was, this

1:15

thing seemed everything I was hearing

1:17

seemed so unlike the company

1:20

and the way that they release things and the types

1:22

of things they released, that it all just

1:24

sounded like weird sort of fantasy.

1:27

And yet, as we discovered on Monday,

1:30

it's not fantasy. They've created this fucking

1:34

face computer that I

1:36

guess their idea is it's

1:38

going to kind of do a little bit of everything. You

1:41

can play games in it.

1:42

You can.

1:43

Sorry, I'm scrolling as i'm talking. I'm scrolling

1:45

the website for this, and there's a picture of a woman

1:49

sitting on a sofa who presumably appears

1:51

to be talking to a man. I'm

1:53

gonna say it might be her boyfriend or husband. It kind

1:55

of looks like they're pretty cozy here. She's

1:58

wearing this headset, she's smiling

2:00

at him, She's wearing these crazy goggles, and there's

2:03

the outside of the headset has a screen that

2:05

shows like what appears to be your eyes

2:07

inside the headset, but they're not your eyes.

2:10

They're a video of your eyes that's being

2:12

shot from inside of the headset. Anyhow,

2:14

They're sitting on the sofa in this kind of like cozy

2:17

environment, and it is

2:19

like the most ridiculous, one

2:22

of the stupidest looking things I've ever seen

2:24

in my entire life. And I just want to say, I'm not trying

2:26

to be I'm not trying to nag, you know, Apple,

2:28

I'm not trying to say, like, you know, they stink and they can't

2:31

do anything right, and this thing is going to be a failure. But

2:34

it is such a weird and jarring

2:37

concept, such a jarring vision

2:40

again no pun intended for the future, that

2:43

I have a lot of trouble kind

2:46

of taking it seriously.

2:49

So yeah, I mean, look, and I've said

2:51

this before and I will say it again. Early on,

2:53

I was a huge, huge

2:56

fan of where virtual reality

2:58

can go and what it could be. And I have

3:00

no doubt that Apple is going to move the ball

3:02

forward with this thing. But the

3:04

thing that they introduced feels

3:07

so not right

3:09

for this moment. It just sort

3:11

of like baffles me. It's a baffling I

3:14

feel, a totally baffling device.

3:16

Anyhow.

3:16

So I've been thinking about it a lot, obviously,

3:19

because it's I mean,

3:21

certainly, at the very least, it's the

3:24

most interesting thing Apple has done in a pretty

3:26

long time, good or bad.

3:28

It's definitely not not ambitious,

3:31

it's definitely not not fucking

3:33

weird, you know, and I gotta do you gotta

3:35

throw them a bone for that. I do, got

3:37

a hand it to them. They have certainly

3:40

released a product that you

3:43

know, swinging for the fences, as they say in

3:45

some in some way. But

3:47

anyhow, before they release it. We you know, we

3:50

had on Mark German. He talked about

3:52

what was going to happen and

3:55

it all came true, and I thought

3:57

we have to have him come back on and

4:00

just do a little like post game breakdown.

4:03

And so Mark is here with us, and I just want to get

4:05

into hearing his thoughts on this very

4:08

strange.

4:08

New reality that we're

4:11

living in.

4:28

All right, Look, we had to get you back on, okay,

4:31

because I mean we just had this conversation

4:33

like less than a week ago, right, I

4:35

mean.

4:35

You've got to feel pretty good. I guess you know at this

4:37

point, but like.

4:38

You, I mean, you literally had this entire

4:40

story and end like pretty much everything

4:42

we talked about on the podcast, certainly everything

4:45

you wrote about over a long

4:47

period of time, but particularly the last piece you did

4:49

on this headset. You got everything

4:52

pretty much down like exactly

4:54

as it is. So first off, congratulations,

4:57

that's it's a rare feed. I don't think

5:00

people know how hard it is to get

5:02

that kind of level of scoop out of Apple.

5:05

On Apple specifically, it's challenging.

5:08

I love to do it.

5:09

Yeah, here's one thing I'm curious,

5:11

and we can't go into the full I know you only have a short period

5:13

of time, but yeah, you know, I'm sure there is

5:15

a part of people at Apple that must be really

5:18

mad at you because you like spoil their big surprise,

5:21

right, But your writing

5:23

creates an aura of you

5:25

know, I'm not saying that you're doing this on purpose. I know you're

5:27

just like writing shit that you get because you love tracking

5:30

it down and hunting it down. But it

5:32

helps to build the hype level to some degree when

5:34

there's all these like exciting rumors about these crazy

5:36

things they might do, Like do you have any interaction

5:39

with anybody at the company? Like do you talk to the PR people

5:41

there? I know it creates a lot of hype.

5:44

At the same time, you know, it's not

5:46

like they asked for that hype, right, They

5:48

have their preferences about how you

5:50

know, things would roll. Yeah, they

5:53

are professionals. You

5:55

know, you would expect nothing

5:58

less from a company like Apple.

6:00

Yeah, they have some of the best people there

6:03

on the PR side and the marketing

6:05

side, and they're all pros pros.

6:08

So yeah, I'll leave it at that.

6:10

No.

6:10

I mean it's interesting because in my era

6:13

of being very interactive and covering Apple, I

6:15

mean there's Steve Jobs era into

6:18

the early days of Tim and

6:20

there was a very different set of PR people. It

6:23

is a very different place in time, but

6:25

I had I would describe

6:27

them as like screaming matches

6:29

with or just being screamed at by the

6:32

PR people at Apple, where they

6:34

were like freaking out, like because we published shots

6:36

that somebody sent us off like a beta, like a

6:38

Beta iOS or whatever. After they released

6:40

the Death Beta, somebody sent us some shots and we published

6:42

them and they were like losing their shit. But

6:45

a different era. I think it's definitely a much more mature

6:47

company, a completely different company.

6:50

Yeah, and I know Tim Cook actually kind

6:52

of did a whole house cleaning on the PR side

6:54

of it. Like I think there's a whole new group of people

6:56

there at this point over the last few years. But

6:59

that's the least interest thing. So they've introduced this

7:01

thing. It's fucking insane looking. Can we can

7:03

we just talk for a second about they released

7:05

the headsets Vision Pro.

7:07

Is that what it's called, or just Apple Vision? What is

7:09

it called? It's the Apple Vision

7:11

Pro. Were you surprised about the name?

7:13

The name thing was interesting, So I

7:15

had heard back in early twenty

7:18

twenty two that they were thinking

7:20

of calling it the Apple Vision. So

7:23

I wrote at the beginning in twenty twenty two that my

7:25

best guess would be that it's called the Apple Vision,

7:27

right, And then you were like, you

7:29

just want to be sure to say you got this originally

7:31

you had this, yes, And then in August

7:34

of last year they trademarked Reality Pro

7:37

right, and so that became

7:39

the working title to me, right, and

7:41

then internally they

7:44

changed the name of the OS from Reality OS

7:46

to XROS, and

7:49

then they end up announcing it

7:51

as the Vision Pro with visions right.

7:54

And they didn't tell anyone working

7:56

on the product that it was called Vision

7:59

OS. Interesting, they had kept

8:01

telling everyone working the product that it was called

8:03

XROS.

8:04

Right.

8:04

So if you watch any of the developer

8:07

sessions over the course of this week

8:10

related to the headset, all of the sessions

8:12

are called XROS. Really, yes,

8:15

all the references or XROS, all

8:17

the Apple engineers call it XROS.

8:19

But XROS is not a thing.

8:21

Yeah, they're eliminating that, right. But Apple

8:23

Marketing didn't tell Apple Engineering that they

8:26

had shifted from XROS to Vision

8:28

OS, right. Well, the fact that they're marking

8:30

it as the pro makes it pretty clear that there's the non

8:32

pro coming to which is coming about

8:34

two years from now, half years.

8:36

Two years until now. This doesn't give me available

8:38

until early twenty twenty four, they said, Right, they're

8:41

not even selling it right anytime soon?

8:43

No?

8:43

And then I don't know if you saw my tweet from earlier

8:46

today, but were you covering Apple and fourteen still?

8:48

Definitely when they announced the Apple Watch.

8:51

Yeah, Actually that was one of the one of the last ones

8:53

where I did the event and review

8:55

and stuff.

8:56

I did it for Bloomberg.

8:56

Actually I was at Bloomberg at the time, so

8:58

I actually went out there from Bloomberg. But

9:01

yeah, I was there in twenty fourteen. What's the deal

9:03

with that?

9:03

Well, when they announced the watch in twenty fourteen, that

9:06

was September, they said would be launching an early

9:08

twenty fifteen, right, It didn't go on

9:10

sale until the end of April. And

9:12

even then, ye could get one anywhere.

9:14

That's it, right, I remember I.

9:16

Didn't get mine until mid May, end of May, right,

9:18

yep. And so they're saying early twenty

9:20

twenty four. Notice they're saying early next

9:23

year versus early twenty twenty four by the way.

9:25

Right, stee, They they didn't

9:27

say twenty twenty four early next year?

9:29

Okay, interesting because early twenty twenty four

9:31

sounds farther away than early next year,

9:33

right.

9:34

Sure, Also next year is more vague

9:36

than twenty twenty four. Twenty twenty four sounds very concrete.

9:39

Sure, not that there's any wiggle room there

9:41

really, but yeah, I see what you're saying. So you

9:43

tweeted something the day of the event that I thought was

9:45

interesting, and I have been pondering it quite

9:48

a bit. You tweeted, have

9:50

they shown any pictures of anybody in the headset?

9:52

They had a picture of Tim Cook standing next to the headset.

9:55

Which is weird, right, if it's your big

9:57

thing to set the standard for your

9:59

career, I mean, legacy builder, you want

10:01

a one wearing.

10:02

They're all wearing Apple watches, right.

10:04

Yeah, they'll hold the iPhone.

10:06

Right, I think, And a lot of people and You're

10:08

in the replies pointed out what I

10:10

think is probably part of it. People were like, Oh, it's because

10:12

they don't want memes to be made of them wearing the headset.

10:15

But that in and of itself, and that's why I think it's

10:17

interesting. The fact that they

10:19

know that a picture

10:21

of them in the headset will become some kind

10:23

of joke on the internet, right

10:26

to me, suggests like, and that was my point,

10:28

right, Here's here's what I was most

10:31

surprised about with this thing, because frankly,

10:33

I wasn't ready to be surprised at all, given the fact that

10:35

you had gotten the entire thing. But

10:38

it looks so much like a

10:40

fucking quest or, like you know what I

10:42

mean, it looks like a VR headset. It doesn't

10:44

look like when in my mind's eye, when I think

10:46

of what Apple can do, like from a hardware

10:49

perspective, I'm like, this is going to

10:51

just totally upend my idea

10:54

of what these things look like. But it really

10:56

kind of looks like a nice a really nice quest.

10:58

Well, let me tell you what surprising to me. The back

11:01

portion, like the padding

11:03

in the back of your head. Yeah, that looked way bigger

11:05

than I expected. Yeah, and that things

11:07

mass. It's clunky. It's a clunky device.

11:09

I mean, I tweeted a picture of they have this woman

11:12

sitting alone on a sofa with it on, and it's like

11:14

a massive apparatus. Joanna

11:16

Stern from The Wall Street Journal used that she wrote

11:19

about it. She said it was like heavy, it was like hurt

11:21

her nose. What's your impression of the reaction

11:23

from people on this, like you, what have you seen

11:26

out there?

11:27

I don't need too much mind to a thirty minute

11:29

demo. And what that means for the product long

11:31

term, My personal opinion is

11:33

that it's going to be incredibly slow for the first

11:35

year, even the first three to five

11:38

years. This is the most controlled Apple launch

11:40

you'll ever see. It's available only

11:42

in the US and only from direct

11:45

Apple sales channels right right, And

11:47

so that's a rarity. Both of those things

11:49

are.

11:50

That means stores though, right, just from stores.

11:52

Yeah, what I mean is you're not going to be able to buy it a Best

11:54

Buyer, Target or Walmart or whatever. It's

11:56

going to be Apple only right in only

11:58

the US, which is a rarety for them.

12:00

There used to be periods where it was very hard to get Apple,

12:03

certain Apple products like weren't readily available

12:05

everywhere, Like this is going to be one of those products.

12:07

Obviously that's the old Apple, right,

12:09

and that's you know, coming back to fruition

12:11

here, right, They're going to have to release an iPhone

12:14

app to consumers or a feature

12:16

in the Apple Store app before the headset

12:18

comes out that allows you to do the whole face scanning

12:20

thing that they were doing, right, because you can't do that

12:22

through the web browser right order it, so

12:24

you'll have to do the face scanning before you order it online.

12:27

Wow, or you'll have to do it in the store.

12:29

So that's going to be a really new way to buy a product.

12:32

The whole prescription lenses.

12:33

Thing, well, yeah, that was. You were right on that, one

12:35

hundred percent right on that.

12:36

It's funny because I was tweeting about it with people and they're like, that's

12:38

not confirmed, and I was like, well, let's

12:40

just wait a minute to it happens.

12:41

Literally, Like the lens thing, Yeah,

12:44

okay, how much do you think the lenses are? Someone who

12:46

I spoke to today and this person has no idea,

12:48

but they just threw out this random thousand

12:50

dollars number for the lenses.

12:52

I mean, expensive glasses can

12:54

be right like in that range

12:56

the actual lenses themselves, like from my

12:58

glasses that are like good lenses?

13:00

Is you know? I don't.

13:01

I think if you have a strong prescription the price goes

13:03

up a bit, but I mean a few hundred

13:05

dollars probably minimum, right.

13:07

Two point fifteen insurance? Right, what insurance

13:10

covers?

13:10

I don't know. I don't know.

13:11

If you go to your insurance you're like, I really need to use

13:13

this Apple VR headset for

13:16

work or whatever. You know, maybe,

13:18

but what do you how about this? Okay, so you're

13:21

like, it's a long it's a slow climb. We talked about that a

13:23

little bit last time. Right, Obviously, you know people

13:26

who are have some real inside track at the company.

13:28

Have you heard anything from internally

13:31

about how the reception has

13:34

been taken or how the reaction from from

13:36

people has been taken. Do you know, have any sense from

13:38

inside the building what they

13:41

what they're feeling.

13:42

Yeah, I don't know, it's still too early at this point.

13:45

From people who were there, what they told me the loudest,

13:48

the loudest reaction was at the price point, rather

13:50

than anything specific to the headset and such.

13:53

Well, the price point's crazy. I mean they had a lot

13:55

of crazy price points at the event. And

13:58

what it's an M two Mac Pro like

14:00

desktop grand seven thousand

14:02

dollars.

14:03

Either a thousand or two thousand more than the Intel

14:05

version. It's really expensive, really

14:07

expensive. That was crazy pricing.

14:10

And but then thirty five hundred for this headset. Definitely

14:12

took it out of the realm of nobody

14:14

believed that. I've been telling people for months, this is

14:16

going to be more expensive. They're like, no, no, no, no, no, it's just

14:18

like the iPad. Ever, you thought it was a grand, but it was half the

14:20

price this is going to be.

14:21

It's true.

14:22

I actually I thought the same thing when we were

14:24

watching it. I was like, Okay, but they're going to hit us with

14:26

like a fifteen hundred dollars price point or something crazy,

14:28

and they will sell, and they will sell like a shitload of them

14:31

right off the bat.

14:31

But don't forget there's more evidence

14:34

in context than I had just

14:36

from people telling me it's going to be three grand plus.

14:39

Right.

14:39

I was also told, and I've reported many

14:42

times, that they're expecting high one hundred thousands

14:44

to a million unit sales.

14:46

Right.

14:46

If this thing was priced that two thousand or below,

14:49

they would need more than a million units, Josh,

14:51

because everyone would buy one.

14:53

Right, Well, I mean a large amount

14:55

of people would buy them.

14:56

Right.

15:06

I am still stuck, And obviously we're not going to resolve

15:08

this here because I know you have limited time. But I

15:11

am totally blown away by the fact

15:13

that, no matter what they said and did,

15:15

I have a mental block when I look at the

15:17

device, it is so

15:20

similar to the things that have not worked.

15:22

It is so similar, even the interface, Like

15:24

when they showed it, you've used the quest, right,

15:26

so you're familiar with the whole, the whole. They

15:29

have the whole, this panel interface with these

15:31

like icons and stuff. And not to say that Apple

15:33

isn't going to completely knock that shit out of the water,

15:36

but the consumer side of this

15:38

still baffles me. The idea that

15:41

like your average consumer and I know right now it's

15:43

not the average consumer, but

15:45

I feel like we're so far away from this

15:47

becoming a really viable product,

15:51

and like, yeah, I don't know. It's interesting

15:53

that none of the executives put it on. I mean I find

15:55

that to be I find that to be like

15:57

a huge kind of tell on their part.

16:00

You know, it's biz all ar.

16:02

You know, for years people have been saying that the

16:04

hardware of Apple products is way

16:06

ahead of the software. I think this

16:08

is a unique situation where the user

16:10

interface interactions, the user interface design.

16:13

I would rate the OS look and feel

16:15

and what they're showing there as an a hardware

16:17

design probably is a b right, And this

16:19

is without using it and seeing it in person,

16:22

it.

16:22

Just feels like a million little compromises

16:24

you can see.

16:25

Like that's that was the idea from the beginning,

16:27

because the non compromised product

16:29

is not something that's feasible, right,

16:31

and had to build this compromised product

16:33

that they're going to bring something to market. I

16:36

for one, think it's going to be hugely successful

16:38

long term. You do, I do the

16:40

iPhone cannibalized the iPod. Yeah,

16:43

the iPad had mac

16:45

cannibalization potential. I

16:47

think this has iPhone ipen and mac

16:49

cannibalization potential.

16:51

Yeah. I mean that's interesting.

16:52

You say that because John Gruber wrote

16:54

an essay about humane. I assume

16:56

you've read this right. He wrote a piece about

16:59

humane and he basically was like, you

17:01

know, making a replacement for something that

17:03

people hate is really pretty

17:06

easy, like getting them to convince them that's

17:08

something you know, that they can replace the thing they

17:10

hate with something better. But getting them to replace

17:13

something they love is

17:15

really a huge climb. And I think, like

17:17

if you think about it on those terms, I thought it was a really

17:19

interesting passage that is fascinating because,

17:21

like I think the Humane device is a similar

17:23

kind of like it's like way outside the box, right,

17:26

I.

17:26

Think the Humane device is way more outside the box

17:28

than the Apple device.

17:29

Well, right, but like if you're like, okay, the

17:32

headset or an iPhone,

17:34

Like there's so many trade offs with the headset,

17:37

we're so far away from that being the viable alternative,

17:39

and like do people are people going to fall

17:41

in love with it the way they fell in love with the iPhone? It's

17:43

a it's a steep climb, right.

17:46

The iPhone quickly took off, and it was pretty

17:48

much you would add that ideal

17:51

right from the get go, maybe the second generation,

17:53

right, the headset's going to take four or five generations

17:56

to get to the place where I'm talking about.

17:58

Well, the funny thing about the iPhone, if you think about it, is like

18:01

it was a compromise device when they released it. There

18:03

was a ton of compromise, right. It didn't have Remember

18:05

it had edge when a lot of phones had already gone to three

18:07

G. Its screen was really small

18:09

by comparison to to well and really not other devices,

18:11

but it was a small, pretty small.

18:13

It became the iPhone screen

18:16

size became way too small within

18:18

three years, right.

18:19

But no, that was like a big screen actually I guess,

18:21

so, yeah, that's true. But there was no copy and paste,

18:23

there was no apps. There was all this stuff that wasn't on that was on

18:25

the cimer room floor. But it took a thing that

18:27

was really not great that everybody

18:30

was using and made a version of it that was so

18:32

much better, such a huge leap that

18:34

it was like, oh, I can never look at that other thing again,

18:37

right, Like I'm never going to go back to a BlackBerry

18:39

after this, right, I don't know they got there with the

18:42

with the headset.

18:43

The headset's not really replacing a device

18:45

that everyone hates, right. I think the first

18:47

point that you mentioned is right where the bar is higher,

18:49

because you're trying to replace things that

18:52

you already love and use every day. Whereas in

18:54

terms of the iPhone cannibalizing the iPod,

18:56

if you really think about it based on that context,

18:59

it's even more what they were able to pull off with

19:01

the iPod to the iPhone transition, because they killed

19:03

something that everyone loved right hundred.

19:05

Percent, but they killed it with a thing that was the same

19:07

thing and had all those features right plus

19:10

more. But when you were watching the presentation.

19:13

Were you there or were you just watching remotely?

19:15

Oh?

19:15

I saw it remotely.

19:16

Did not feel to you like pretty just took pretty black

19:19

mirror some of the parts of the presentation.

19:21

There were some demos, like the

19:23

guy playing with his kids wearing it's

19:26

a It seems quite ridiculous

19:28

to me. And then right, they're gonna

19:30

also step on their own toes in three

19:32

years when they release an iPhone that can take three

19:34

D pictures and you have to have that whole

19:37

you know, motorcycle helmet on your head to doom

19:39

Bault team.

19:40

Is that a plan or they are they doing that?

19:41

No, I'm just I mean, you hit thought

19:43

to imagine that's something they're going to try to do if

19:46

they're able to integrate a three D camera into a

19:48

phone.

19:49

Yeah, I mean the thing with the kids

19:51

was pretty weird, like the guy sitting

19:53

on the sofa watching the picture of his kids

19:55

or watching the video of his kids playing. Like, I

19:57

know we all look at pictures on our phone or whatever, but there's

19:59

some something real sci fi,

20:02

like not in a fun way about this idea of you,

20:04

like being strapped into this device watching a

20:07

moving image of your family.

20:08

I will say though, on a high level.

20:11

They surprised me with how well

20:13

they positioned it. I thought they were going to go in

20:15

a totally different direction, Like what direction they

20:18

did exactly what I thought they should have done, and market

20:20

it as the future of the computer.

20:22

Right now. You said that, you said that on the on the

20:24

last show, you were like, soid.

20:25

That's what people working on it

20:27

it should be marketed as, and what their aim

20:30

was. But it was very possible that Apple marketing would

20:32

take it in a different direction and make it more of a companion

20:34

device. But if they really marketed it correctly,

20:36

which they did, I think it has a long term potential.

20:38

I mean the pitch was sort of like, for thirty five hundred dollars,

20:40

it replaces your computer.

20:42

Yes, which is a great thing you're I mean it.

20:44

Sort of was like, I mean, it can't replace your phone because it doesn't

20:46

have a SIM, right, it's not cellular.

20:48

Well, they'llood cellular, rightly.

20:49

They'll make the dial have a red line on it,

20:51

and then you'll know that that's a cellular headset.

20:54

All right, Mark, listen, I know you need to go. You're a very busy

20:56

man. You probably have thousands of people who

20:58

have to congratulate you. Now you

21:00

have to do a high five session at Bloomberg

21:03

HQ.

21:03

One last thing, I'll say.

21:04

Yes, one more, one more thing, if you will

21:06

actually two more things.

21:07

Yeah, most absurd thing from the presentation they

21:10

said two hours on the battery pack or

21:12

all day battery life when you're plugged in,

21:14

like come.

21:14

On right all day when you're literally

21:17

plugged into an outlet right right.

21:19

The other thing I'll say is I still believe

21:21

that it's gonna start off very slow. Yeah,

21:24

but I think over time, if they can get

21:26

the price point in half and they can

21:29

you know, chop down the design a little bit, and

21:31

they can highlight more of the ar features and

21:33

they get a really solid developer response,

21:36

I think long term it could be it could be

21:38

a smash hip. Are you gonna buy one?

21:41

Probably not, I mean honestly, I mean I don't

21:43

know. Maybe you know.

21:44

I say, it's like, here's the thing I say no to shit all

21:46

the time. I'm like, I'm not getting that, and then I like go

21:48

in a store and I look at it and I'm like, ah, right, fine,

21:50

thirty five hundred dollars.

21:51

Is a high bar.

21:52

Even like I'm the like I could certainly

21:54

I could afford one, but like I'm

21:56

like thirty five hundred, what am I gonna do with

21:58

this thing? Like again the

22:00

other thing that's and this is actually a good point

22:03

to we'll close on this, but it

22:05

kind of speaks to what you're saying about this long

22:07

term plan. One of the things Joanna said in her

22:09

piece was it made her nauseous when she used

22:11

it. I get very much And you talked

22:13

about this on the show last time the same way, and I

22:15

get very motion sick using VR stuff.

22:18

I love it, like I've loved some of the Quest experiences,

22:20

but I'm like, damn, I gotta take this thing off because I

22:22

literally feel like I'm going to throw up if they

22:24

have not come up with like a real magic

22:27

bullet for fixing that for a lot

22:29

of people, I think that's a huge

22:31

problem. Like I know, the like being

22:33

physically ill is not like a little thing, right, It's

22:36

like and I.

22:36

Get really ill from it. I am just thinking,

22:38

you know about it Yesterday's like I might use

22:41

this thing for two weeks and have to return.

22:42

It, right, And I think that's an experience

22:44

that's It's not Antennagate. This is way

22:46

bigger it's like you made a device that is

22:48

actually making people. I can see the stories now.

22:51

Because it's Apple. Yes, those stories will.

22:52

Happen, right, CMBC has the report people

22:55

throwing up because of their Apple headsets or

22:57

whatever.

22:58

The difference between Antennagate and this

23:00

was intenegate. Apple blamed it, said

23:02

it was an industry problem when it wasn't an industry problem,

23:05

right nausea.

23:06

Actually, actually they could

23:08

say it's an industry problem. All these other headsets

23:11

have had, you know, the problems with this people get.

23:12

But this time it would be true, right

23:16

to tenigate, it wasn't true what they turned

23:18

it into an industry problem when it wasn't right this

23:20

time, you know, the nausea thing is an industry

23:22

thing, and let's see what happens. But my point

23:24

being is you can't really know that from an Apple Store

23:26

demo before you buy it.

23:27

No, if you use it for long enough, I guess if they give

23:30

you a ten minute demo, though they're not gonna be able to give people ten

23:32

minute demos, but.

23:32

Like it's just a reality of this.

23:34

If they have not gotten the latency down and

23:36

the frame rate and the refresh

23:38

rate of the screens up and even then, I think it's

23:40

still like not a perfect solution.

23:42

Right, there's still like that.

23:43

Going start growing up upper ten minutes, right, it takes

23:45

you a good hour, So you're really going to

23:47

have to use this thing and see how it goes.

23:49

I mean, everybody's different, there's different sensitivities. All

23:51

I'm going to say is like, there, I have yet to see

23:53

another Apple product that induces actual

23:55

illness when you use it.

23:57

Have you ever heard of an Apple when you see the right?

24:00

No, I'm kidding.

24:02

Everybody just started immediately throwing up in the

24:04

auditorium when they saw the price.

24:06

I haven't heard of anyone personally who's used

24:08

the device who has had that.

24:09

Problem, right, Because there are all people at Apple, aren't

24:11

they They're not going to be like, oh yeah, by the way, it was pukey

24:13

and when we's jested out.

24:15

I mean, I hadn't seen anyone other than Joanna

24:18

say it, which is curious.

24:20

So you're saying Joanna's lying fake news.

24:22

No, that's not what I'm saying.

24:23

Wow, that's not what I'm saying.

24:24

White an attack on her credibility, Mark. What

24:27

I'm saying.

24:27

What I'm saying is is that Joanna

24:29

cuts through the noise, right, And I'm saying

24:32

that it's possible that the

24:34

demos were so blow away that it was

24:36

easy to maybe ignore

24:39

for sure that issue. It

24:42

was a compliment with Joanna.

24:43

They didn't let that many people do hands on with it,

24:45

I mean, or an eyes on or whatever the fuck we're

24:47

calling it.

24:48

Did demos till ten pm

24:51

on Reay and really probably do the same till

24:53

ten pm today and maybe throughout the week.

24:55

But I mean comparatively, it's not like people

24:57

could go grab it and just try it out.

24:58

It's like they're doing it's all

25:00

demos.

25:01

Watch the Good Morning America video, the interview

25:03

with Tim Cook and the interview

25:05

that the anchor got. That's the same demo

25:07

everyone else is getting.

25:08

Oh did they show it? They have like

25:10

a they actually filmed that.

25:13

On the only like Good Morning America film the

25:15

demo. You can see the building they built for the demos,

25:17

in the room they're in. They put you on a couch. It's

25:19

in a controlled environment. Yeah, and so

25:21

you can see you know, you sit on a couch for thirty minutes,

25:23

you do all the demos they've programmed for you, and you

25:26

get to see people are people have been blown away by this thing,

25:28

but again a thirty minute demo, you have to use it for a few weeks.

25:30

I have no doubt it's an incredible They have

25:32

some incredible features, and also you got to remember a

25:34

lot of those people probably are not I mean there's probably a handful like the

25:36

Good Morning America people.

25:37

How much VR do you think they've done?

25:39

Right?

25:39

I want to read the reviews

25:41

when this thing ships and they can use it for several

25:43

days. I want to read the reviews from the VR websites.

25:46

Right, Well, are they even going to work with those

25:48

websites? Do they even care about them? I'm sure they

25:50

will really because I feel like historically Apple

25:52

likes to bypass the geeky shit and go to

25:54

like the mainstream for this device.

25:56

They need that. They were all there at the conference and I

25:58

thought it was the right from out certainly

26:00

based on Apple's history, could have gone either way, but I think they

26:03

made the right decision there. Yeah, you want that community

26:05

to really talk this up because that's the community that's going to

26:07

buy this thing from the get go.

26:08

Right? Is this a quest killer?

26:10

Like?

26:10

Is that it?

26:11

Or is it just the price points too high?

26:13

The delta on the price is so

26:16

large that yeah, you can't

26:18

compare the two. What I will say though,

26:21

is the Meta is uh one

26:23

sixth of the price. I still think it's

26:25

not as bad as one's sixth as

26:28

the Apple thevist.

26:29

I mean, E mean it doesn't it's doesn't. It's

26:31

not one sixth as good or it's better.

26:33

It's not as point.

26:33

It's not one. Maybe it's two or three six.

26:35

I mean that's pretty, that's pretty. That's

26:37

pretty damning, you know.

26:39

But if that's the best that we have

26:41

to offer right now, I mean maybe PSVR

26:43

is. I mean it's a totally different experience for a totally

26:45

different purpose. But I mean Apples certainly

26:47

will become the best of this category.

26:49

There's no question.

26:50

Yes, I saw someone tweet this morning. Is the last

26:52

thing I'll say. I forgot who's who? Please forgive me for not

26:55

citing them. And I have the same exact thought. Meta

26:57

should license out like their metas.

27:00

Do you like an Android?

27:02

Yeah, they should go the Android model and they'll crush

27:04

it.

27:04

Yeah. I mean, honestly, what would be really interesting

27:06

is to see some hardware creativity

27:09

here because I think that like eventually, someone's

27:11

going to crack that magic place between

27:13

like it's not too big, it's not too bulky, it doesn't look

27:15

too weird, and it actually is like functions.

27:17

Well and watch it'll be Apple.

27:19

Well it'll be Apple, you know, on a long

27:21

enough timeline and they have infinite money. So that's

27:23

good, like I assume it will.

27:26

Mark.

27:26

Thank you for coming back and talking about this again,

27:28

like ingrats on the scoops. Just super fucking awesome

27:31

to see it all like play out the way you wrote it.

27:33

Thank you and thank your team. Thank you so much. Bye,

27:35

see you.

27:45

Mark.

27:46

Is he's just great, is I

27:48

have to say, first off, and

27:51

just an incredible ability,

27:53

Like it's so rare just to be able to do what he

27:55

does, which is to scoop the largest most

27:57

valuable company in the world on their own announcements

28:00

an outrageous thing to do, and to

28:02

do it consistently and to get it like almost perfectly

28:04

right is fairly unusual.

28:06

So we'll have him back.

28:08

We're gonna have him share some more Apple secrets

28:10

with us next time he gets a nasty

28:13

ass scoop.

28:14

Uh.

28:15

But but you know, I

28:17

do have some more thoughts about what

28:20

this headset really means.

28:21

I did want to bring up that picture that you posted on

28:23

Twitter of like you wearing some sort of

28:26

like glasses from.

28:27

Like oh yeah, Google Google, that's Google Glass.

28:29

Yeah. I loved that.

28:30

Oh.

28:31

By the way, for the record, I just was writing,

28:33

you know, I was writing a piece for the for

28:35

the fucking Verge. It wasn't like I was like, I bought

28:37

these glasses and I'm wearing them.

28:39

Here. I'll put it in the link.

28:40

That's what it looks like.

28:41

No, I know, but I know it's funny.

28:43

But like, you know, that's what happens when you like review a

28:45

product, is like you put them on and then somebody takes a picture

28:47

of you and then you got to live with that for the rest of your life.

28:50

I look fucking so stupid this

28:52

picture.

28:53

I look like a Jewish terminator is

28:55

how I describe my vibe right here. But

28:58

this is actually way less dumb than

29:00

the Apple thing. Like this is

29:02

super dumb and embarrassing

29:05

and like silly, but

29:07

comparatively comparatively,

29:10

think about this versus what Apple

29:12

is suggesting. Okay, the

29:15

Apple thing is like ten times as clunky

29:17

and gigantic as this. It's not cooler.

29:20

I'm not saying this is cool, although it's

29:23

closer to like something you'd want, like

29:26

an unobtrusive small thing that's like a

29:28

part of your glasses or something.

29:29

Right.

29:30

I think there's a famous picture of Mark Zuckerberg

29:32

walking down the aisle of one of his events

29:35

where they gave everybody an Oculus

29:38

headset a quest or whatever, and it looks

29:40

like the most it's one of the most dystopian photos

29:43

of all time. And I think, when when I look

29:45

at this, and when I see like the pictures on Apple's

29:47

website of this woman I

29:50

don't know, hanging out on

29:52

her sofa with her boyfriend or

29:54

whatever, and she's got these massive goggles

29:56

on her face, it

29:58

doesn't feel like.

29:59

It doesn't spark excitement

30:01

or joy for me, you know, it just is

30:04

like, what are we doing here,

30:06

folks? What are we doing? What's happening?

30:09

I think the thing that's most interesting about it, to

30:11

be honest, is how much I feel like the Apple's

30:13

just this whole thing just misjudges the moment

30:16

of life that we're in. Just I said

30:18

this on the last podcast, but it

30:20

just feels like, Man, I want to breathe fucking

30:22

air. I want to be I want to I want to

30:24

touch grass. I want to be out

30:27

on an adventure somewhere and with like

30:29

people I know and love, Like I don't want

30:32

to put something on my face and be

30:34

transported to like a virtual fucking

30:37

office, which is a lot of a lot

30:39

of the a lot of the stuff they showed was actually

30:41

like you can be at

30:43

the office with this on and like we

30:46

do some work and it's like, yeah,

30:48

that doesn't seem.

30:49

That great to me, you know.

30:51

Or you can watch your kids,

30:54

you know, playing while

30:56

you're wearing this fucking thing on your face,

30:59

like well, you can't even actually interact with them

31:01

properly like a normal person. Not to say that holding

31:03

a phone up is any better. Maybe it's not. You

31:05

know, maybe this is better than holding it. It's not

31:07

better than holding a phone up.

31:09

It's not.

31:10

People have been holding cameras up forever. It's

31:12

very similar when you hold your phone up. But this is like

31:15

cutting literally cutting how off you're the

31:17

main one of the main ways

31:19

you communicate with other people in the world.

31:22

I understand.

31:23

They have a digital projection of your eyes and

31:25

when you do a FaceTime shat, it creates a virtual

31:29

three D avatar of your face. I

31:31

mean, the whole thing just is like, is

31:33

this just an elaborate setup for the new season

31:35

of Black Mirror? And by the way, I

31:37

hate the Black Mirror shit. Like I'm

31:39

not a big fan of Black Mirror because it's always like

31:42

whoa technology is fucked up? Man

31:44

or whatever. That's the whole premise of the show is like technology

31:47

right. But I

31:50

gotta say I maybe they were onto

31:52

something. Maybe they're onto something. Maybe they we

31:54

should heed the warnings of a

31:57

British TV show, although

31:59

that doesn't say on right to me at all. And

32:02

maybe I just need to just jack into the matrix and

32:04

call it a day. Maybe

32:06

I just need to jack into the matrix and

32:08

be done with it. Maybe I'm overthinking

32:11

it. Maybe I'm being a negative

32:13

person. Maybe I'm being a suppressive

32:16

person, as they say in scientology. Maybe

32:18

I'm being Maybe I'm not an ot anything,

32:20

I'm an OT zero, you know. Maybe

32:23

I just need to hop into this head first.

32:26

I'm not really sure.

32:27

Can I ask you a question?

32:28

I have a question.

32:29

You can ask me anything you want. I would love to hear. I would

32:31

love a question.

32:32

Okay, So I remember when

32:34

like the I pod came out and the

32:36

iPhone came out, these are all things that are so cool

32:38

because I like enhanced your living experience.

32:41

Right now, our options are you

32:43

put on a headset and you go into a different experience

32:46

where you create an avatar and go into like assumes

32:48

like experience, right, so the right futures

32:51

so there, Yeah, they are out of our

32:53

current realities. So that

32:55

to me feels like we're just out of creativity,

32:58

right.

32:59

I hear you're saying, we certainly are running

33:01

out of ideas. Like this is a great indicator

33:03

that we're at a point, we were at a value.

33:06

I've actually I've talked about this many times in the past.

33:09

You know, there are there are there are peaks

33:11

and valleys to all of this. You know, there there there

33:14

is the build up and the breakdown. And I think like if

33:16

if the peak is you know, the

33:19

iPhone, because it really is from

33:21

a technology perspective, the

33:24

peak of modern sort

33:26

of technological innovations is

33:28

really the iPhone and the era

33:31

that it begat, which is this era of always

33:33

on connectivity and social sort

33:36

of inter you know, always on digital social

33:39

connectivity and interaction with

33:41

a device that kind of is to do everything device

33:44

that's the highest pinnacle of sort

33:46

of technological sort of

33:48

upset that has happened in probably

33:50

in my lifetime. You could say the

33:52

Internet, right, but actually in some way the

33:54

Internet's full the power

33:57

in the power in the terror

33:59

of the Internet wasn't actually fully

34:01

encapsulated or realized until the

34:04

Internet was like in our hands

34:06

all the time and in art like was

34:08

where our photos went and where we communicated,

34:11

And that didn't happen until the iPhone, it really

34:13

did, and everything else was like you had to sit down

34:15

somewhere basically to go and off to

34:17

this other place.

34:18

So if that's the peak, and.

34:20

All of the things that begat are the kind of

34:22

like in the wake of the peak of

34:24

this technological innovation, then there has to

34:26

be there will be naturally be a value.

34:28

You can't have. It can't.

34:30

You can't keep hitting peaks over and over again

34:32

with this stuff. It's just not possible. Like, you can't. You're

34:34

not going to invent things that are that

34:37

explosive on such a regular cadence.

34:39

And if you look at the time of.

34:40

Technology that's been built post iPhone,

34:44

there's been this you know a huge amount of things

34:46

that happened. Even like if you look at like a tesla,

34:48

a huge amount of Like why Tesla was successful

34:50

is because it borrowed a lot of innovations from

34:52

an iPhone. Like many

34:54

many things about the Tesla are a kind

34:57

of reference to or a nod to how the

34:59

iPhone fund Even this concept

35:01

for us conceptually of like electric cars

35:03

being like a big phone you charge or whatever, has

35:06

been made more accessible by the existence

35:08

of the iPhone. But in the grand

35:10

scheme of things, the Tesla is like a car with a different

35:12

engine. Right, It's not a

35:15

total reinvention of travel

35:17

as we know it. So there

35:19

hasn't been an explose I'm just used as an example, but

35:21

there has not been an explosive next moment. And

35:24

again, all of the recent moments

35:26

of innovation are

35:29

a byproduct in some way of the iPhone.

35:32

You could make an argument about sort of machine

35:34

learning and AI stuff like chat, GBT

35:37

and mid journey. I think it's an explosive

35:39

potential. There's no iPhone

35:42

of it. Yet, there isn't the iPhone thing, the

35:44

killer app that makes it the

35:47

kind of the delineating point between the

35:49

thing before and the thing that comes after. The

35:52

VR headset, the vision pro And

35:55

I'm not saying this to be to downplay

35:57

it or to be negative, but it is

36:00

a slight tweak on

36:03

what an iPhone is. The screen is

36:05

in a different place, the content

36:08

is in a different place. Yes, certainly, VR

36:10

and AR there are different things that they allow.

36:13

Yet first person games

36:15

that you play on your computer they have a

36:17

lot in common with what a VR game

36:19

does. It's just a little bit more of like you're

36:21

immersed fully visually in it versus

36:24

you're only seventy percent immersed

36:26

in it or whatever AR. We do on

36:28

our phones all the time, so that that application

36:30

of the digital overlaid on the

36:33

virtual. These are fairly familiar

36:35

things, right. Every time you use your camera to

36:38

snap a QR code and then take you to a website,

36:40

you're using AR in some way.

36:42

Right.

36:42

If you use your one of those measurement things to measure

36:44

on your phone, like, that's AR.

36:46

Right.

36:46

If you look at like some weird three D object

36:49

in your room, that's an AR.

36:51

So all of this stuff, like the sensor is, the

36:53

cameras, the motion tracking,

36:55

the connectivity to your apps, all the

36:57

surface that you see when you work in it.

37:00

It is not an explosive new

37:02

idea like it's always been this way and

37:04

now we've upended it. It's just like a

37:06

continuation of, almost

37:08

an addendum to what

37:10

the iPhone created. And so for

37:13

me, when I look at it, it's not that I don't think

37:15

it can be cool or exciting or interesting, and I'm

37:18

sure there will be implications with this,

37:20

but the idea that it's like the

37:23

next peak technologically

37:26

speaking, feels like really like a vacant thought.

37:28

It feels like a fake, a phony,

37:31

a put on about what

37:33

real peaks look like. And I don't think

37:35

we have the moment, like this is not

37:37

the moment for this, Like I don't think this is the where

37:40

everybody was gravitating towards

37:42

it and then something just broke through that's so special

37:45

and so important that we are all going to like move

37:47

inside of it. So on your

37:49

point about creativity, so

37:52

long winded sort of explanation

37:54

or exploration of

37:57

the idea, I mean, I think that

37:59

we seeing there's an explosion of creativity

38:02

because of devices like the iPhone and the iPad.

38:05

I assume things like mid Journey

38:07

and some of the AI stuff's happening continue

38:10

some expansion in some ways

38:12

of some of that entire

38:14

industry has been built around what modern

38:17

technology allows us to do right. Like the

38:19

podcast industry, for instance, like would not

38:21

exist quite the way it does if it hadn't become

38:24

so wildly accessible for someone

38:26

to like create, to record, and

38:28

to edit and to put a thing on the internet and

38:30

then to share it with other people.

38:32

There may be some new innovations to be had.

38:34

There may be, you know, variations

38:37

on themes like the next time a

38:39

game like The Last of Us is

38:42

really impactful, it might be because you're

38:44

playing it in a headset like this, But I don't

38:46

think it fundamentally changes where we are

38:48

at creatively. But

38:50

I also don't think this is like an inflection

38:52

point. They make some a lot of these.

38:55

It is yet to be demonstrated how this

38:57

creates the inflection point that takes us somewhere

38:59

really dramatically different. And

39:02

until I see that, until I can really palpably

39:04

see that, I'm sort of not I'm not sold.

39:06

I'm sold only on the continuation

39:08

of a fairly interesting peak into

39:11

a fairly middling

39:13

or uninteresting valley, which

39:15

is where we currently sit.

39:17

So Apple lost it like luster a

39:20

little bit?

39:20

No?

39:21

No, yes, yes, but Apple's

39:23

loss is luster since I

39:25

mean there's no iPhone post iPhone.

39:28

There's only improvements on the iPhone

39:30

conceptually that and it gets better and better,

39:32

and then it kind of levels off, and it's sort of like, yeah, it's pretty

39:34

good, and it will be everything sort of like incremental,

39:37

like better cameras, better, more storage,

39:39

better battery life, like more

39:42

things you can do in the software. Though the software

39:44

itself is like largely unchanged

39:46

in about like twelve years of its existence. You have to

39:48

remember, it's only twelve years or

39:50

something like that, two thousand and seven, right, So it's

39:53

however, many years not that many. You know,

39:55

Apples had plenty of failures. Apples had plenty

39:58

of products that fail, and they've had a lot in

40:00

the past a few years

40:02

that are just fine, that are fine whatever.

40:04

It's good, you know, like the iPad's cool,

40:06

like does some really interesting things. The watch is

40:08

cool, doesn't really interesting things. Certainly helped

40:10

to define a market and made Apple

40:13

a lot of money. Again, they are

40:15

just extensions of the phone. They are just simply

40:17

an augmentation and a variation

40:20

of the exact same thing. The surfaces are

40:22

changing slightly, but the actual functionality

40:25

is is just a kind of a little bit of

40:27

a satellite of the of the phone.

40:30

The next phone is the thing?

40:32

What is that.

40:33

I don't think Apple has that. I don't think Apple's done that.

40:35

I think everything's very incremental right now.

40:37

And so have they lost their luster? I mean,

40:39

Apples had hits and they've had misses

40:41

for their entire career. Steve Jobs. People talk about Steve

40:43

Jobs like he was like could do no wrong. But there

40:46

are plenty of things that Apple has released

40:48

that Steve Jobs really loved. That was like

40:50

a total whiff, you know. I mean, they

40:53

collaborated with like Motorola on like an iTunes

40:56

phone. It was like completely stupid, and nobody liked

40:58

it and nobody cared about and it wasn't a success, But

41:00

people don't remember it because it was

41:02

a kind of an afterthought. Once you do an iPhone

41:04

doesn't kind of matter if you've had

41:06

a couple of misses before that. So you know, this

41:09

could be the lead up to the next, to the

41:11

to the right one, per what we've

41:13

heard, per what Mark talked about. But you

41:16

know, I mean it's just we're in a valley. We're in a technological

41:18

valley. We're still figuring out

41:20

what it is that we're supposed to be doing. With all this technology

41:23

and it's put us in this like, you know,

41:25

it can't be extended. It can't be boom times

41:28

all the time. It can't be extended innovation,

41:31

endless innovation, endless change.

41:33

There has to be some period of settling, and I just

41:35

think we're still in a period of settling. We're

41:38

not going to be able to envision the

41:40

next thing right now. And if we could do that, then we'd

41:42

be you and I would be extremely rich and

41:44

famous, and we're only a

41:46

little bit rich and famous. So you know, you

41:49

know how that goes.

41:50

So you're not going to buy one this run, but would you buy

41:52

like a future.

41:53

No, I mean I'll probably buy one. I mean I'll probably buy.

41:55

One, Okay, I mean, to be honest with you,

41:57

like at some point, I'll probably

41:59

just fuck it. I'm gonna buy one, you know, even

42:02

just to play around with it, even just so I know. I

42:04

mean, I'm kind of this is kind of a problem for me though,

42:06

Like I've got one of everything.

42:08

Yeah, I will say this.

42:09

I think if I spend thirty five hundred dollars on it and I take

42:11

it home and I use it for twenty minutes and I get nauseous.

42:14

I will definitely return it, like because

42:17

like, I have a bunch of VR headsets and

42:19

I don't use any of them, and I've played them.

42:21

I've played with them and been like, Wow, this is fucking

42:23

awesome. But after

42:26

an extended session, I mean like fifteen

42:28

or twenty minutes, I feel physically

42:30

ill and I can't keep using it because I'm going

42:33

to, like I feel like I'll throw up. That's

42:35

like a pretty huge barrier to using

42:37

any of this stuff. So take all of the whatever's

42:39

going on aside. If this makes

42:41

you physically ill, it doesn't matter how cool it is. It

42:44

just doesn't if you just take drama mean to use

42:46

it. I don't think that's a slam dunk as

42:48

a product.

42:48

I wonder if there's like the ratio that like

42:51

women would put up with that moore than men, just

42:53

because like pregnant people are so

42:55

often nachous that live through that.

42:58

I mean, I ah, look, I will. I

43:00

would argue that.

43:03

Women have a higher tolerance for

43:05

discomfort and suffering if this world

43:07

has showed us shown us anything, so

43:10

I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case. But nobody

43:12

wants to feel nauseous. I mean if you had, if you had a

43:14

choice between feeling nauseous and not, you wouldn't like willingly

43:16

make yourself nauseous.

43:17

Right now, I'm just giving Apple the marketing tools.

43:20

That's good. It's like pregnant women, you'll understand.

43:23

Yeah, ladies, ladies, it's

43:25

better than being pregnant. Is

43:27

that the pitch?

43:29

Yeah, because it only makes you nauseous for a short

43:31

time period that's supposed to extend it.

43:33

Yeah, it's interesting.

43:34

I think we got to workshop that a little bit before we

43:36

take it to Tim and Co. But I

43:39

like where you're headed with it. It's interesting. Here's

43:42

what I've come to from a conclusion standpoint.

43:45

Either I'm finally

43:48

so old and out of

43:50

touch that I just don't get it man, or

43:53

Apple is it can only be one of

43:55

those things. It can only be one. It can only

43:57

be that I don't get it. My you

44:00

know, ability to gauge what is and is

44:02

not cool or good

44:04

is somehow gone now. Or

44:07

this is a bad, bad dumb idea and

44:09

Apple's blowing it. I think it's

44:12

the latter. I feel pretty strongly it is. That

44:14

doesn't mean it can't be successful. Lots

44:16

of stupid things are very successful, like Avatar

44:20

for instance, but it

44:23

does feel a little bit like, yeah, I don't see it.

44:25

I'm going trouble seeing it. For

44:27

the succession fans out here, the presentation

44:30

felt a lot like a living plus kind of

44:32

vibe. I'm

44:35

not loving it, as they say, well,

44:39

I think I can safely say that as our show for this week.

44:42

We will be back next week with more what Future,

44:45

and as always, I wish you and your family the

44:48

very best.