0:17

Hey, and welcome to What Future. I'm your

0:19

host, Joshua Tapolski, and

0:22

I have to tell you something. I have been

0:24

watching the show's succession, and finally,

0:26

after four seasons, I've decided

0:28

that I'm enjoying it. I don't

0:31

know about you, the listener. If

0:33

you're watching Succession, if you're not a member

0:35

of the media elite the way I am. If

0:38

you're not a member of the blue chech mafia

0:40

from Twitter, the old one, not the new

0:43

shitty one, then you

0:45

maybe don't know about Succession. Maybe you're not watching

0:47

it because you're not a member of the coastal elites

0:49

that define and shape all news

0:52

and culture. But as a member of that elite

0:54

squad of soy

0:57

boys and I don't know, whatever the fucking

0:59

I don't know people call them, but anyhow, as a member

1:01

of the squad, not the political

1:04

one, but the elite squad of TV

1:07

watchers, to show about

1:09

a very rich family that runs a media organization,

1:12

perhaps the only remaining successful

1:14

media organization that any of us have ever seen.

1:16

I sort of hate watched the first three seasons. To be

1:18

honest with you, I didn't love it. I didn't dislike

1:21

it, but I wouldn't say I was in love with it

1:23

or even totally liking it. And then the

1:26

season things have really taken off, and unfortunately now

1:28

it's ending. But I have been

1:30

following and reading a great writer at

1:33

The Ringer named Katie Baker, who's a senior

1:35

staff writer there who writes about

1:38

Succession, amongst other things. She also writes about

1:40

sports and all sorts of really interesting stuff.

1:42

And I wanted to talk to somebody

1:44

about Succession because I

1:46

think Laura is tired of me

1:48

talking about it with her, and I

1:50

thought Katie would be fantastic because she's in

1:52

the guts of this stuff in a way that a normal

1:55

person would not be. And that's what I'm looking for is

1:57

and have normal conversation about

1:59

a normal topic, which is the television

2:02

show Succession, which airs

2:04

on HBO Max, which

2:06

now I guess is called Max. Anyhow,

2:09

Katie's here and we're going to talk to her, so

2:11

let's get into it. Baker,

2:29

Is that how you say that?

2:30

Yep, Katie Baker.

2:32

Have you ever had anybody mispronounce that just out of

2:34

curiosity? No?

2:35

But I had a funny story back when

2:37

I worked in finance, when I was an intern

2:39

where you know, my big boss

2:42

said, Katie, how do you spell your last name?

2:44

You know, because he didn't know my last name? And I was, right,

2:46

that's smart, that's smart Baker b

2:48

A k R. And he was so busted and everyone

2:51

started making fun of him. You know, I felt

2:53

cool because then that was that was the whole joke for the

2:55

rest of the summer.

2:56

So he used the classic. Yeah, this was like a

2:58

pickup thing. I think like when I used to go to bars,

3:00

like if you were talking to somebody you

3:03

forgot what their name was, you would say something like,

3:05

your name is so interesting, how do you spell that right? And then it

3:08

was always like a real problem if their name was like Jill,

3:12

that's not that Yeah, you

3:14

know what, but that's so funny

3:17

the idea that it was done in a work contact,

3:19

and couldn't he have just like looked at your file or

3:21

something.

3:21

I know, I'm surprised you knew my first name to

3:24

be able to even ask me.

3:25

So strange. Where was this? Where was this?

3:26

This was it Goldman Saxon Company down

3:29

at one New York Plaza at the time.

3:31

You worked at Goldman.

3:32

Yeah, the first seven

3:34

years out of college worked at

3:37

Goldman and yeah.

3:39

Really, I didn't know this. I

3:41

didn't know. Okay, wait, you worked at Goldman and

3:43

then for seven years

3:45

is that what you're saying? Yeah, okay, and

3:48

then what happened?

3:49

Well, I'd say,

3:51

let's see what year was it that I got a that I

3:53

finally got a laptop at home and

3:56

started a tumbler. That was probably

3:58

in like two thousand and seven or something

4:00

like that or two thousand and eight.

4:02

Time. That's a great time to get online. I

4:04

literally last week we were talking about this. That was when

4:06

I started blogging at en Gadget was two thousand

4:08

and seven, So that was that

4:10

was a real online time in my recollection.

4:13

Yeah. So, I mean, like, my online story

4:16

is kind of funny in that it started

4:18

way back when with e World,

4:20

which used to come if you bought

4:22

an Apple computer, you got this. It

4:24

was like an AOL disc, except in this case

4:26

it was for the Apple only AOL

4:29

that they shut down e World, and

4:31

so I put in the disc. I remember I got

4:33

my dad's like wallet out of he kept

4:36

it in the side of his car, you know, and like the side

4:38

console right in his credit card

4:40

dialed up on the modem, joined e World,

4:43

started an account I was probably

4:45

in you know, I don't know, sixth grade

4:48

or something like that, right, And that led

4:50

to me being like a teen moderator in

4:52

a chat room on e World, which led to

4:54

me working for an IRC

4:56

company called talk City when I was a teen.

4:58

Oh my god, yeah, wow, it's

5:01

funny, Like, I know, you're a veteran of Business

5:03

Week, and they had an article

5:05

in Business Week at the time about

5:08

talk City and they took a picture of me, and so

5:11

anyway, the whole thing was so funny. But then I was kind

5:13

of like not online for a while, well

5:15

with some like you know, hockey and Dave

5:18

Matthews band usenet in between.

5:21

I always liked computers and the

5:23

Internet, and I you know, had

5:26

met people from the Internet when it was really

5:28

weird to do that. It's kind of moulnerable now.

5:31

I remember I lived in New York City at the

5:33

time. I lived really close to Tom and Jerry's

5:35

bar down in off Houston Street,

5:38

and that's where a lot of bloggers hung out back

5:40

in the day. And I remember,

5:43

you know, I read, I've read a lot of blogs, and so

5:45

I started a tumbler and I just would would

5:47

tumble from work at Goldman, and yeah,

5:50

I was kind of started writing a little bit while I was

5:52

still working there, sometimes using

5:54

pseudonyms, but often just using the fact

5:56

that my name is so common,

5:59

even in the New York media world. It's

6:01

common. But

6:04

there's another and there's another. Yes,

6:08

yeah, so anyway,

6:10

YadA YadA. So like one thing led to another, and

6:13

I was kind of doing random blogging

6:16

and Bill Simmons, you know, who was of ESPN

6:18

at the time, read something that I wrote on the

6:20

site media which gives you place

6:22

as I was writing for Yes.

6:25

I didn't know all this. This is so good.

6:27

Yeah, so that's how I got,

6:30

you know, into that job. But you know, Tumblr

6:32

at the time was like my big outlet. And then

6:34

I started meeting people in person, often at Tom

6:36

and Jerry's, you know, in the New York blogging

6:39

scene, and that was a really just fun

6:41

moment for me where I really realized that, you

6:44

know, you start to kind of meet your people. And I

6:46

remember I would go back to work at Goldman and feel frustrated

6:48

because no one knew what the New York Observer was. It's

6:51

like, you know, but

6:53

but you know, but I'd beel like, you should know what that is?

6:55

You know, you're it's part of the culture

6:57

in the city in which you live.

6:58

So that's so interesting. So

7:01

this was so you're saying you were at Goldman. You're

7:03

saying you started doing the tumbler around two thousand and seven and

7:05

two thousand and eight, is that correct.

7:07

Yeah, I'm trying to think what year would have been to probably twousan

7:09

and eight. It was right around the like

7:11

when the financial crash was like in the midst of

7:13

happening. So it was just a crazy time

7:16

to be watching that unfold

7:18

while also going on Tumblr and seeing

7:20

you know, sad photos of traders at tumblr

7:23

dot com and sort of it all

7:25

happening at the same time.

7:26

People don't remember this era. I mean,

7:28

this is like Katie Natopolis, my sister in

7:30

law, had a tumblr. I want

7:32

to say it was a tumbler. Sorry I missed your party, which was

7:34

like really weird, bad, like people posted

7:37

horrible photos of like weird shit going on at their

7:39

parties. And I don't know if you remember that, but.

7:41

Oh yeah, it was like a thing that.

7:43

Whole like electroclash, like New York people

7:46

who had like turned into like last Night's party or whatever,

7:48

which was like the Cobra snake or whatever.

7:50

That was the whole thing, but media meshing. But

7:53

then there were all these tumblers that people just make like I

7:55

had one. I had one called Bag

7:58

of Bags, which was just patures

8:00

of bags that I liked, and then like like you

8:02

know, like shoulder bags. I also had one called

8:04

I think it was Guilt Models tumbler dot co. Do you

8:06

remember Guilt the service Guilt I

8:08

do.

8:09

I've made many a transaction on that.

8:11

Yeah.

8:11

Well Guilt Guilt had really depressed

8:14

looking models. I don't know if you remember, but they had

8:16

like very unhappy looking

8:18

models, and so I just started like I would just pull

8:20

the people who looked most unhappy, and I

8:22

would just post, it's still there somewhere.

8:24

I think, like, yeah, they're all They're all

8:26

there somewhere.

8:27

Yeah. Okay, so you were a nerdy

8:29

kid. You got online using something

8:32

called eWorld, which I honestly I'm trying

8:34

to search my brain bank here to

8:36

figure out if I can even remember what E World

8:38

was. I'm getting nothing,

8:41

so like it was.

8:41

I think it was a brief flash in the

8:44

pan. It came bundled with an apple, like

8:46

I when I finally got my parents to get me my

8:48

first computer of my own. Yeah

8:50

that wasn't just the kind of DOS

8:53

computer that my dad got from work that he never

8:55

touched once in his life. Oh wow, So

8:58

I got my own, like, you know, I think it was some

9:00

sort of power PC desktop

9:03

computer.

9:04

It was a Macintosh.

9:06

It was a mac And this was kind of in the still

9:08

in the first Steve Jobs era, like I went

9:10

to like I went to Macworld a few

9:12

times. I mean I was

9:15

I was in I was in deep like as a young

9:17

tween.

9:18

Wow, it's so interesting we have It's

9:20

interesting because your story is so familiar

9:23

to me, but only because of my experience.

9:25

I was online really young. My dad took

9:27

me to CES when it was in Chicago. I was probably

9:29

twelve years old, because I was like, this is where

9:31

all the game stuff is and where all the computers

9:34

are or whatever, and you know, just super nerdy.

9:36

But that's interesting.

9:37

First of all, like, props to parents who bring

9:40

their kids to these weird places and understand

9:43

that they there's a reason

9:45

they're asking to go. May I may

9:47

I have that spirit with my kids, you know, continue

9:49

to have those seriously. Okay, so E World

9:52

was very friendly. It was sort of

9:54

the anti AOL.

9:55

Okay, I'm looking at the Wikipedia

9:58

entry now, just yeah, and.

9:59

It's a great graphics. It was this little a

10:02

little mail truck and it would say yeah

10:04

mail wow, and you go

10:06

to these different little houses that were different, Like

10:08

there was like an arts pavilion and that's where

10:10

you go to the movie chat rooms or the

10:12

movie.

10:13

You know.

10:13

It was like it was like AOL like graphical

10:16

boards of things and pictures that took forever

10:18

to load.

10:19

And yeah, I'm just looking at it now. It's

10:21

like, welcome to e World. There's

10:24

a little guy who's or a

10:26

person who's like talking

10:28

to you. There's an arts and leisure pavilion,

10:30

learning center. So it was like yeah,

10:32

online, but not online.

10:34

Basically, it was it was like, yeah,

10:36

there was so in a later version of your world

10:38

that you can't see in this picture. It was the same

10:40

interface except basically next

10:42

to the mail truck there was a little

10:44

off ramp to like the Information super

10:47

Highway, and that's when you could go on like the unfiltered

10:49

Worldwide Web.

10:50

Oh wow.

10:51

Yeah. So anyway, like I got in these chat

10:53

rooms, but then they closed it down

10:55

like Apple, I'm sure it wasn't profitable

10:58

in any way. Or whatever it was, So I

11:00

remember it so clearly, like I thought, I've thought about

11:02

this a little bit with Twitter sort of being

11:04

in a weird twilight phase, but I

11:06

mean they literally pulled the plug one night

11:08

at like midnight Pacific time, and

11:11

so everyone.

11:12

Did everybody know?

11:13

Yeah, everyone knew, and we were all up in the chat

11:15

room, like I was on the East coast. So I remember, I think,

11:18

I don't think I could stay up all the way, but we

11:21

might have done like a fox goodbye at midnight, but

11:23

I think I stayed up or I was set an alarm and woke

11:25

up and was kind of there for like the final

11:27

It was just like a lot of people being like goodbye forever,

11:30

right, and then it just like a little window appeared

11:32

that said like goodbye,

11:34

like thank you, like it. And

11:37

it's a really crazy kind of experience to

11:39

have gone through.

11:40

God, first off, such a vivid and depressing

11:43

scene you've set like where the services

11:45

everybody's there waiting. It's like, you

11:47

know, the end of the world, right like were you're waiting for the for

11:49

the asteroid to hit and you're kind of like everybody's

11:52

holding hands or i'man drinking I don't know

11:54

what people would be doing.

11:54

But yeah, and you don't know like what's going to actually happen at

11:57

the moment, What if there's a what

11:59

if there was a it doesn't go or whatever

12:02

that has happened.

12:02

I think we're like things just kind of hobble

12:04

on, you know, indefinitely.

12:06

Right.

12:07

So you said you were working in Goldman and said, this is

12:09

going way back to the stuff we were just talking about. But you

12:11

were working in Goldman. You had been there for seven

12:13

years? Is that correct? Is that number accurate? You

12:15

started like doing a tumbler, that's

12:18

right, yep. And at what point did you

12:20

go from like I'm doing a tumbler on

12:22

the internet too, Like now I'm writing

12:24

something for a blog or

12:26

for like a publication, Like what was that transition

12:29

for you?

12:31

I think the first paid work

12:33

I did was for Mediaite, and

12:36

I remember it was if I wrote seven articles,

12:39

they would pay me five hundred dollars. But

12:41

I had to do the seven articles first. And

12:44

then I was writing for Gawker.

12:47

I was doing a New York Times

12:49

wedding Like I wasn't the first

12:51

person to have done the column in which

12:53

they called altercations, but I sort of took over

12:55

the mantle of it, and was you

12:57

know, kind of rating New York Times wedding announcement

13:00

and.

13:01

So were you like trashing wedding announcement.

13:03

Yeah, you know we're reading them. I

13:06

liked to think of it as celebrating the absurdities.

13:08

But yeah, for sure it was like that, right,

13:11

that early aughts snark.

13:13

Yes, it's like classic Goker. I mean the wedding

13:15

announcements were like in the New

13:18

York Times are always like the

13:20

people are not normal,

13:23

and like, you know, they're either like fabulously

13:25

wealthy or have some really insane jobs.

13:27

It's very rarely.

13:28

It's always been punching down, that's for sure.

13:31

No where it's like he's a garbage man and she worked

13:33

retail. Like that's not you don't read about those

13:35

in the New York Times. Like nuptials

13:37

or whatever. They're always like he's a

13:40

vagabond software developer and she's an

13:42

heir to the to this like chicken

13:44

fortune or whatever. And then you know they got

13:46

married.

13:47

Exactly like a lot of Mayflower Society

13:49

references. And yeah,

13:51

so many people that have the

13:54

grandmother's house in Maine where they get married, and.

13:57

Right, all these people have a comment, no offense,

13:59

but the rich or whatever. I mean. Okay,

14:03

so it was Mediaite and then Gonker, did you remember

14:05

the first thing you wrote, like the first article? Man?

14:07

I remember I wrote a few things for

14:09

a blog called Young Manhattan Nite. One

14:12

was about like the US Open I went to the US Open.

14:15

And another was about you

14:17

know, not using any real names, but a little bit

14:19

about like Lehman Brothers collapsing and

14:22

sort of the experience of some of my friends.

14:24

You did some like reporting, no, not even

14:26

it was like one guy that

14:29

I'll call Peter said da da da,

14:31

and you know, and they were real quotes, but it wasn't

14:33

you know, I hadn't gone out and talked to them. It was just relaying

14:36

conversations, right. It was like a little bloggy

14:38

essay. Yeah, but I remember that being

14:40

like a big thing that like when I wrote that, like

14:43

a lot of people, you know, people in the New York blog

14:45

scene read it.

14:46

And oh yeah, no, that sounds like really

14:48

juicy shit, like you know, that's the kind of stuff

14:50

where it was like, what is this right?

14:53

Is this journalism? Is it like hearsay? Is

14:55

it you know, is it defamatory

14:57

or whatever? You know, it's like nobody really knew

15:00

what it was because it was just something that was like

15:02

it's part diary, it's part like somebody's

15:04

like thoughts, it's part reporting.

15:07

It's you know, like what an amazing time.

15:10

Anyway, Like I was writing about kind

15:12

of like ESPN personalities

15:15

or I remember there was like a

15:17

some kind of Serena Williams scandal

15:20

at the time where she had you know, told

15:23

like a ball a ball woman she was going to

15:25

like shove the ball down her throat in a moment of

15:27

anger or whatever it was. So I was writing I

15:30

would write a piece about how ESPN

15:32

covered that, you know, just kind of right

15:35

whatever it was. And so yeah,

15:37

I wrote, I wrote a few things like that, and that was

15:39

what got the attention of Bill Simmons,

15:41

who's you know, kind of my boss

15:44

now and.

15:45

Kind of your boss. I

15:48

haven't met that many people, or

15:50

maybe I haven't talked to that many people who've had such

15:52

a similar experience where you were so online,

15:54

so young, and you were doing things that were not

15:56

even really online, not the internet

15:58

the way it is now, And it's

16:01

just interesting to hear because you did

16:03

a similar thing that I did, where you had a job that you

16:06

were doing, that you'd done for a long time, and then you were like, no, I'm

16:08

going to blog, which is an

16:11

interesting move. Like I don't know a lot of

16:13

people that did it, but there are a handful of

16:15

people that did it. You had a

16:17

real job, though My job was like making music

16:19

and chasing people for money. Your job was like.

16:21

At Goldman chasing people for

16:23

money.

16:24

Though, well sure, but like

16:26

they're much more successful than I was. I can tell

16:28

you that we're

16:40

going to talk about Succession, that the HBO

16:42

TV show and not HBO, I guess I call

16:44

that anymore the Max TV show about

16:47

a media family. And we're

16:49

probably going to have spoilers. So if you haven't caught

16:52

up to Succession, I wouldn't

16:54

turn this off, but I would just really

16:56

quickly watch all those episodes and then turn

16:58

this back on. So anyhow,

17:01

you you recently read about the Old People in

17:03

Succession and that that was based round episode

17:05

four.

17:06

Yeah, yeah, so episode four has

17:08

a lot of great wrangling between

17:11

you know what they call the quote, the Old

17:13

Guard, the Gray Beards, the ember are penguins,

17:15

yeah, the Emperor penguins, the

17:18

you know, the inner circle of Logan, the intercorporate,

17:21

but also because Logan had no real

17:23

life outside the corporation, also his maybe

17:25

the closest things he had to personal friends too,

17:27

in a twisted.

17:28

Them in The Bodyguard.

17:31

There's so many things all about succession, but one of

17:33

them is that next

17:35

layer around the family, and

17:38

just all these people who you

17:40

know are are important to the family, because

17:42

there's a layer beyond them of people who are

17:44

probably big deals in their worlds. You know, the

17:46

investment bankers, all the people that write

17:49

the hundred or whatever. You know,

17:51

it's supposed to be happening there.

17:52

It's the hundred, that's that's their startup.

17:54

Right their startup. You don't even see

17:56

those people. You see them in the smallest glimpses, and.

17:58

So they show a lot of the heads.

18:00

Actually I've noticed of some of those people where they

18:02

barely even acknowledge there,

18:04

and I think that's probably purposeful.

18:06

But yeah, so, you know, I've

18:08

always loved those characters, and I've written before about

18:10

some of the women in Succession and Jerry being

18:12

one of them, and she's always just been

18:14

such an interesting character in terms of her you

18:17

know, succession doesn't tell you

18:19

that much about people's backgrounds, but they drop little

18:21

nuggets here and there, and so, yeah, you learn

18:24

that she's known Logan for so long,

18:26

and her kids wonder if they've you

18:28

know, ever been romantically involved, and I don't think

18:30

we will ever know the answer to that. But yeah,

18:33

So it was after episode four that

18:35

I spoke with some of them, you

18:37

know, with the actors who play Carl

18:40

and Frank, and you know, just about

18:42

what it's like to be in

18:44

that role of you know, you're kind of managing

18:46

up you're but you're also managing a lot of

18:48

shit all the time. What keeps

18:51

them there in their minds? Like is it the

18:53

money or is it the proximity to power?

18:55

And right?

18:56

So, yeah, so it was really fun to talk to them. And you

18:58

know, one thing that stuck out to me is that those

19:01

actors, as many people in

19:03

succession do, have such a like rich theater background,

19:06

and it's kind of made me watch

19:08

the show a little bit like

19:10

like it's this play and it's been

19:12

fun since I spoke to them to watch it, you know in

19:14

that context.

19:15

Right, it's actually I mean it's funny

19:18

that hearing you say that now makes me realize

19:20

how many scenes on that

19:22

show are like, yes, people are traveling to in

19:24

from places, but like they are ultimately

19:26

are often sort of almost trapped in

19:29

places. Right. There's like I can't remember

19:31

what season is when when Logan is like sick and he's

19:33

supposed to give some big speech at like an investor

19:35

conference or whatever, and they're like can he

19:37

go on? Like is he with it? Like he was like mentally

19:39

out of it, but they're like basically trapped in

19:42

the building, right, like everybody's there and trying

19:44

to like solve it. Like the episode from

19:46

This Sunday, which in my opinion,

19:49

well, I'll just say this, I mean, I think the latest

19:51

episode it was the first time that I kind

19:53

of I would say I warmed up to the

19:55

show. It took me a while to really warm up to it,

19:57

and I do believe, like I have a

20:00

I think it's tough because where you know, my viewpoint

20:03

on a lot of it is like I'm so close

20:05

to people that are like these people not like close

20:07

like I like them or we're buddies. But I

20:09

have spent so many I've spent

20:11

so much time in rooms with people like those people,

20:14

or at least adjacent to those people

20:16

that Like it's tough because it's like very

20:18

realistic, but it's also like, okay, like I know what they're

20:20

doing, you know. It's like sometimes you're kind of like, I know what they're doing.

20:22

Yeah.

20:22

But the episode

20:25

this past Sunday, which was perhaps

20:28

I would say one of the top five most uncomfortable

20:31

TV viewing experiences I've had, like

20:34

ever, and uh, and I've watched

20:36

a lot of Curb Your Enthusiasm, so I think, like

20:39

that's saying something made

20:41

me feel like I would like to watch like another five

20:43

years of Succession. Like it

20:45

was the first time that I think

20:48

I was like, I don't want the show.

20:50

I mean, I'm not ready for this show to not be

20:52

doing this, Like, and there is something that's interesting

20:55

to to happen, like following again

20:57

spoiler alert, the death of Logan that

21:00

obviously this is on purpose and obviously they're leading

21:02

to a conclusion because this is the final

21:04

season, right, this is really going to be the final season. Do we

21:06

think there's any chance there?

21:07

No, I think I think i'd

21:10

be surprised if if they were, if this is a big

21:12

fake out. Sadly, Yeah, they

21:14

had always said the like for a long time, they said

21:16

they had five in mind and so I was like, all right,

21:19

this is the penultimate season. That's great,

21:21

right. So I was taken aback because I really

21:23

thought they would do the five. But I guess, yeah,

21:25

you know, yeah, it's sad.

21:26

But this episode, it was so full of

21:29

just the worst of the characters

21:32

and also in some way the best of them. And

21:35

but you got to see the Emperor Penguins as they're

21:37

described or whatever. You got to see the kind of older characters.

21:40

They're much more unbridled in that episode,

21:42

and they're like to the point where it was so interesting.

21:44

There's an interaction that Kendall has with Carl,

21:47

who I didn't actually, for some reason,

21:49

never I never really fully understood what their roles were.

21:52

There's actually like a little bit of like a lack of clarity

21:54

about what they do. For a lot of the show. I

21:56

was like, oh, he's the CFO, okay, And

21:58

it made me think a lot about like CFOs

22:01

I've known and he there's something about

22:03

the way he plays that character that

22:06

is so CFO, like if you've met you

22:08

know, and this is both like an insult and and

22:10

and a sort of prop to that to him as an

22:12

actor into CFOs. Generally, there's just a

22:14

vibe that CFOs have and

22:17

one of the things I've actually struggled with it. I'm curious

22:19

to know if you what your take on this is

22:22

is like, do normal people watch Succession

22:25

like I've had for a little bit of I know, I've

22:27

talked for a while. I'm gonna let you get in here, but I've

22:30

had a sneaking suspicion for a while that

22:33

the only people who really are invested

22:35

in Succession are media people. And

22:37

because we decide what's

22:40

going on the blogs and in the papers

22:42

and in the magazines, like, we have

22:44

over indexed tremendously on the importance

22:47

of Succession as a TV show. What

22:49

is your what is your what does your take on that?

22:51

Well? I think you know, the classic comparison

22:53

that people have made lately is, you know, when

22:56

you compare the viewership of Succession

22:58

to like Yellowstone, which is kind of of you

23:00

know, yeah, Succession out West and

23:03

and a lot like Dummer. And I

23:05

say that as someone that's that's seen all the Yellowstones

23:08

and all the spinoffs and is it good? Yes?

23:10

But now no?

23:11

Yeah, okay, my septic guy yesterday,

23:13

I'm the guy. We have a guy comes up because we have a septic tank

23:16

here to make sure we are sept tank isn't getting getting

23:18

blow up on us. He literally was

23:20

like talking to me about Yellowstone,

23:22

like and I was like, Oh, I've never seen it.

23:25

You know, the most recent season is absurd,

23:27

but it you should watch it. It's

23:29

really good. It's really

23:32

silly. And if you start to

23:34

if you do watch it and you start to like tally

23:37

up the family's you know, death count and

23:40

body count of like or just all

23:42

the weird things that you're like, how would this actually

23:44

happen in the world, Whereas I do think succession

23:47

does give sort of real world consequences

23:49

to things, even when those consequences are a little like

23:51

absurdist or like.

23:52

Not right rich people consequences, Yeah,

23:55

exactly.

23:55

But anyway, like the Yellowstone

23:57

spinoffs are really good, by the way, and I

24:00

really don't think you need to have seen Yellowstone

24:02

to watch them. They're called eighteen eighty three and nineteen

24:04

twenty three.

24:05

Oh yeah, somebody really, somebody really

24:07

great is in one of those. I would like, I want to say, it's like

24:09

Harrison Ford or something is in one of these.

24:11

Is that Kristen He's in nineteen twenty three?

24:14

Eighteen eighty three is strangely

24:17

Faith Hill and Tim McGraw, but it works.

24:21

God, this is like so American. What

24:23

you're describing is like, yeah, the ultimately

24:25

it's like the show's Yellowstone. I think Kevin Costners

24:28

is he in the main one? Yeah? Okay, maybe

24:30

he's dead. I don't know.

24:31

I mean I got I got for my for

24:33

Christmas. I got my dad the

24:35

Blu ray set complete

24:37

set of Yellowstone. And I

24:39

don't think eighteen eighty three was out yet, so

24:41

that'll be. That'll be next Christmas. And

24:44

sometimes I get them these things, and I don't know if he ever

24:46

really watches them or you know, and

24:48

he like he and my mom watched every

24:51

episode like every day. We're

24:53

fell asleep to it, Like oh my god, keep

24:55

asking me what the like when they can watch the new season?

24:57

So wow, okay, interesting.

24:59

I think they would like fall asleep during succession.

25:01

Like honestly, I think, if you sure, I get

25:04

it. And I find that I love

25:06

watching every episode the second time, like I

25:08

love watching them the first time too, But man,

25:10

that second watch, you're just like you

25:12

notice so many things, you know, But

25:14

it's like, should someone have to watch a show twice?

25:17

To appreciate it, sure, but I

25:19

think that I think that not everyone will.

25:22

And you know, you kind of always hear from people that

25:25

try to watch it from the beginning. You

25:28

know, it can be slow to get into, you

25:30

know, I know a lot of people don't really love

25:32

like the first few episodes.

25:34

I mean, I liked it from the start, but I remember when

25:37

I first started writing about it in the first season, it was

25:39

kind of like people didn't know

25:41

what to make of it or understand

25:43

what it was trying to do. I think a lot

25:46

more people do now, right, And you know, when

25:48

you watch it, like with that in mind, it's it's great.

25:50

But if you're going into it thinking it's going to be either

25:53

really overtly funny

25:56

or really dramatic

25:58

and soapy, like you're not going to find and either

26:00

one in the way that you're expecting.

26:02

I guess.

26:03

Yeah. I mean, there are some dramatic moments,

26:06

some dramatic beats, certainly in some of the seasons,

26:08

but like it is a show of

26:10

micro aggressions. It's like kind of the you

26:13

know what I mean, like the things that happen

26:15

that are I mean, Shiv,

26:18

who is the actress that plays her name I'm blank, amare

26:20

Yeah, Sarah Snook, who is

26:23

just like one of the most expressive

26:25

actors and so has done so

26:27

much with so like with so little,

26:30

such like these little tiny expressions. Like in fact,

26:32

there's some scenes with her and her husband

26:35

Tom, who is played by the actor

26:37

another British actor.

26:38

What is his name, I'm blank, I'm kindly gonna mispronounce

26:40

it. It is like Matthew McFadyen. I think, sure,

26:42

why not, I'm

26:45

such one of those people that reads and writes and

26:47

can never pronounce names.

26:48

But yeah, all the time, I'm like, oh right, these

26:50

people are not like these American these

26:52

totally American characters. They are so perfect to playing.

26:55

But there's just like so much going on between

26:57

them. But it is nothing like in the grand scheme

26:59

of like TV drama or whatever,

27:01

or just drama generally. It's so so subtle.

27:04

But that's what I'm asking, is like I think like the

27:06

show feels like I feel like everybody

27:08

talks about it that I know, and I feel like it's been

27:10

written about a ton and like Jeremy

27:12

Strong is this character he's like become this

27:15

meme because he's like a method

27:17

actor and everybody thinks that's hilarious, which

27:19

you know, I think it probably is. But like,

27:22

what is the viewership of Succession? Like, well,

27:25

I know they.

27:25

Recently had I think this season,

27:28

let's see,

27:30

it's like two million or something, setting record. Yeah

27:32

exactly, it's like in oh actually, oh whoa,

27:34

this is actually like way more than I thought. It's

27:37

now averaging eight point four million.

27:38

Okay.

27:39

I feel like it was originally like way

27:41

lower than that.

27:42

I'm from one point two or something like.

27:44

Yeah, this says season four premiere of Succession

27:46

was up sixty two percent compared to season

27:48

three.

27:49

Wow.

27:49

Yeah, season three premiere viewership was one

27:51

point four million. Yeah, so it's kind of

27:53

that's that's actually really interesting. I wouldn't That's

27:56

not something I would have like expected.

27:58

It kind of shows how much is like created

28:01

the culture that like now people are

28:03

probably watching because everyone's talking about it

28:05

and they're like right.

28:08

No, there you go. But you see that's the media once

28:10

again, the media's narrative

28:12

pushing you know, people towards a story

28:15

that maybe wasn't a story to begin with.

28:17

Yeah, I mean, I also think it's a show that's

28:19

fun to watch in the context of like,

28:22

you know, it's not about any certain family.

28:24

There are obviously lots of influences

28:27

about many families that we've heard of, and so

28:29

it's fun when you you know, recently there was that big

28:32

Rupert Murdoch Gabriel Sherman peace about

28:34

kind of just what's what's the latest in his life,

28:37

and you know some of his relationships

28:39

with you know, women ranging from Jerry

28:41

Hall to this you know, dental hygienicist

28:44

who thinks Tucker Carlson is somehow the

28:46

Messiah. And so when you start

28:49

to see that and then you start to kind

28:51

of put these things together, you realize that,

28:53

like, yeah, this show is weird, and all

28:55

these people are you know, on

28:57

the surface bad, but like that's

29:00

baby, and it's you know, I

29:02

love the character of Roman Roy and I love Karen

29:04

Culkin, and I'm like, oh, Roman,

29:07

he you know, he's poor guy. Here's

29:10

a there's a good guy in there somewhere trying to come

29:12

out. And then they show him on that studio

29:15

Hollywood golf cart and just

29:17

hit looking at the people and

29:19

with this look on his face, like with utter disdain,

29:21

and you just realize that's the asshole that

29:23

goes through the set and is mean to

29:26

everyone and those are the same person

29:28

and I love that tension, but some people hate

29:30

that discomfort, like you mentioned this right, so

29:33

it was like very cringe but very.

29:35

Good, like well, one of the problems with the show

29:37

that I think for for like people to get I mean

29:40

not problems, but one of the challenges. And again

29:42

I sort of took me a while to warm up to it. I would

29:44

say this season is by by

29:46

far my most enjoyable watch, but I

29:48

think that you know, the characters are detestable.

29:51

There's not a likable character, to be honest, I mean there's

29:53

they have likable qualities. There are moments

29:55

of extreme likability, like the character

29:57

of Roman Roy played by Karen Culkin, as

30:00

you mentioned, is super funny

30:02

and also in very endearing

30:04

in parts like but ultimately

30:08

is a callous, horrible, shitty

30:10

person with who is really pretty

30:12

dumb and like That's I think one of the things

30:14

of this season that I've enjoyed

30:17

is this kind of exploration

30:19

of how sort of inexperienced

30:22

and stupid the kids of the family

30:25

are, and just how so out of their depth

30:27

they are in so many of their whether it's

30:29

interpersonal relationships or professional relationships

30:31

or ideas about you know, who they are

30:34

and what they're supposed to be doing. Like it's I

30:36

think there is. It seems to me like the

30:39

writers have taken a bit of joy

30:41

in like exposing the

30:43

emptiness of these characters, because

30:46

like, you know, these these people are so present

30:48

in our lives and in our minds, like they're so they

30:50

occupy so much, they suck up so much air and have

30:52

I mean, Rupert Murdock as an example, has

30:55

like altered the shape of politics.

30:58

Not just an American by Baker in the world,

31:00

I mean like globally. His power

31:03

to wield the media as a weapon

31:05

is you know, it's kind of like demonic,

31:08

Like it's pretty crazy. And so

31:10

there's something that's really intriguing about

31:13

trying to understand or get a glimpse inside

31:15

of, like what their lives are. Like Yeah,

31:17

but again, like I think, like a big I

31:20

don't know what Yellowstone is, Like I haven't seen it. My guess

31:22

is there are pretty likable characters, and some of the characters

31:24

must be pretty likable, like it can't

31:26

all be back. But

31:29

yeah, okay, okay, I gotta watch it, But

31:31

like I don't know, this is a show where where you know,

31:33

it's hard to you know, I'm not rooting for anybody.

31:36

I kind of like, I'm like, I hope they all fail.

31:38

Like that's my my overarching

31:41

feeling of it is not like, boy, I hope Kendall

31:43

pulls this off. It's like, you know, I'm

31:46

like it's hard to watch, but like I don't

31:48

want him to win. Basically, you know, we're

31:51

all projecting something you know about reality.

32:04

Well, what's interesting to me is like when

32:06

I worked at Goldman, I was in wealth management,

32:08

and there's been these studies

32:10

done in the in the field where they talk about

32:13

how when you have a you know, big,

32:15

big source of wealth, it doesn't take

32:17

very many generations to like really fuck

32:20

that up, you know, basically

32:22

takes like two generations by the time you get to

32:24

the grandchildren where really you know, they

32:26

just don't have that connection. Yeah, like it's

32:28

faster than you'd think beyond. But

32:31

I just remember working with people

32:34

where we would refer to them as

32:36

the children. We'd say, oh, well we're having a meeting

32:38

with the children today, and then the children

32:40

would come in and they'd be like fifty years old, and

32:43

I'm like, oh, I was like assuming that they were not.

32:45

You know, this is when I was in my twenties, and like

32:47

these are like grown adults, but

32:50

and yet they're the children to all these

32:52

institutions that have sort of already been

32:54

involved with like their father and that

32:57

wealth. And you don't want to always

32:59

believe in these like birth word or things or whatever

33:01

the you know, but there is always a lot of these.

33:04

If you have enough kids, like one of them is going to

33:06

be a hippie. And if you have enough kids, one of them is going to

33:08

like really want to go into the

33:10

father of the mother's footsteps in a way that maybe

33:13

becomes pathological or you know whatever.

33:15

It is right right now? Yeah, yeah,

33:17

I mean so much of the show is like is like adults

33:19

acting like babies and yeah.

33:21

And you know a line that I just always come

33:23

back to, I think from like

33:26

the first season is Marcia says to Shive,

33:28

like your father built you a playground and you think it's

33:30

the world. And it's kind of interesting because

33:32

so much of that, like you were saying in succession, like

33:34

they go to these amazing places and

33:36

then they never leave like the hotel or the

33:39

yacht dining room or whatever

33:41

it is, right and it doesn't

33:44

look very fun, and I always

33:46

wonder, like, you know, Shive doesn't

33:48

have any friends, Like you know, none of these

33:50

people have like these real support

33:52

structures almost and so that's why you know they

33:55

they turn to, you know, the closest thing

33:57

they have is like you know, Frank,

34:00

who is also actively trying to you know,

34:03

caring about this, the shareholders and that

34:05

sort of thing.

34:06

Yeah, no, I mean, it's it's definitely like, you

34:08

know, if they were sympathetic characters, I would say,

34:10

like I feel bad for them because they seem isolated.

34:12

But I feel I maybe

34:14

I'm being cruel in my sort of estimation

34:16

of the family. But like I think about

34:19

those characters and I think about the real people, I'm like,

34:21

you have so much wealth, you have so much opportunity.

34:23

There are so many things a person could do. Like I

34:25

think a lot of what like kind of has driven the drama

34:28

between the father and the kids is like he

34:31

wasn't, as far as I can tell, did not come

34:33

from wealth. I think his backstory is that like he's

34:35

sort of a he is actually like a self made man,

34:37

like a person who kind of fought for everything he had or

34:39

whatever. And the kids who've just been handed

34:41

it, and it's like, well, you have all this opportunity and all this wealth,

34:43

and like what you do with it is like amounts to almost

34:46

nothing, Like you don't have an idea, you

34:48

don't have like an impulse. It's all

34:50

just like kind of surface. They

34:52

do seem very isolated, and they are in these very isolated

34:55

situations, which I kind of to me, there's always

34:57

remind me of a horror film, like I always think of like

34:59

a lot of the places they're in, like

35:01

when they went to the retreat Matson's

35:03

like retreat that's a very horror film

35:05

setting, like inside of offices,

35:08

trapped inside of offices, very horrific, you know, like

35:10

hotels kind of a horrific vibe to

35:12

them sometimes.

35:13

And I did love what you talked about, like when they were

35:15

at one of the shareholder meetings, I think the

35:17

one where Logan goes like quote piss mad.

35:20

Yes, yes, you know.

35:21

I loved like as anyone that's ever been

35:23

to like a you know, a Macworld

35:26

or a CS them sort

35:28

of half running through these long corridors

35:30

at these expo centers where you know, to get

35:33

from place you.

35:33

Can pay you know, you know what the carpet feels

35:35

like like you know, like you know how the floor vibrates

35:38

like in those places. I guess like as a person

35:40

who's you know, covered these things and gone to them and

35:42

been a part of them and whatever, like, I understand

35:44

those environments in a way that when I see it, I mean

35:47

again, that's like I think watching it from me and a

35:49

lot of people in media, it

35:51

is different than if you're just a regular person. I

35:53

like hotels, I like hotel bars. I

35:56

think there's something like very enjoyable

35:58

about them. But it is like a very very

36:00

specific kind of anonymousness

36:02

that can exist there that this like weird

36:04

like all these people from all these different places

36:06

and like you kind of like, yeah,

36:09

nothing there is permanent. It's like this very

36:11

strange sort of you know what would have been referred to

36:13

as a.

36:13

Temporary national waters.

36:15

Yeah, there's this concept of the temporary

36:17

autonomous zone, which I'm blanking on

36:19

the writer who sort of coined it. But it's like airports

36:22

and hotels and these places where they have their

36:24

own rules, they have their own like all the people that

36:26

are gathered but not for like to be in that place,

36:28

but usually like to go between some other from there

36:31

to some other place and anyhow. But like, but

36:33

that's the show. It lives in a lot of those spaces

36:35

that are maybe I'm getting too philosophical

36:37

on it, but like I think you know about it, but no.

36:40

I totally agree. I mean it's like, you know, even

36:43

when they were just in la you know, and this is the

36:45

classic alley experience, but they're just like in a car

36:47

for so much of it. If they're not right, you know,

36:49

you're in a room and then you go from the room

36:51

to the car and then from the car to the next

36:53

room with all the same people in each place.

36:56

Yeah, it's interesting to me. There is like just a there's

36:58

a dread, a feeling of dread that had over the whole

37:00

thing, and that I think this season and

37:03

obvious for obvious reasons, perhaps like it

37:05

has come forward more in a

37:07

way that makes me feel engaged and excited

37:09

about it. There are some plot points

37:11

that are brewing that have yet to be

37:13

really brought to the surface that I think

37:15

are you know, as

37:18

far as the drama goes, Like I make this joke every

37:20

time Shiv and Tom are in a scene, I'm

37:22

like, ah, the greatest romance of our time

37:24

Shiv and Tom like because there

37:27

is like an enormous amount of attention

37:29

paid to their relationship and its

37:31

struggles and their defeats

37:34

and sort of you know, the

37:36

possibility of reconciliation, and

37:38

yet like they're again very unlikable characters

37:41

that don't even seem to like each other, and you're

37:43

sort of like, this is

37:45

not a great romance, but it is an interesting

37:47

one at the very least. But yeah, you

37:49

know, Shiv is again spoiler alert, for

37:52

the love of God, spoiler alert, Shive is it last

37:54

we heard?

37:54

I think pregnant, we believe, So,

37:57

yeah.

37:57

It hasn't come back up. And since the episode

38:00

of like the Wake or whatever, I guess like the day after

38:02

her dad died, I think is when that was supposed to have

38:04

taken place.

38:05

Yeah, they talk about scheduling like the you

38:07

know, the twenty week scan, so she's kind

38:09

of still in that like fifteen weekish

38:11

probably area.

38:12

And just to be clear, in this season, I

38:15

was a little confused, but these episodes are moving like almost

38:18

day to day, like they're not there's not

38:20

a huge amount of time that's gone on, right, Like, he

38:22

dies and then the next episode they're flying to

38:24

Sweden or wherever they're going, and that's like the next

38:27

day, right, like literally or close to the

38:29

day after.

38:30

Yeah. Like at one point, it like people

38:32

were kind of wondering if it was going to

38:34

be each episode was basically a day, and I think

38:36

like that's gotten a little like just given the

38:38

travel times between some of these

38:40

continents, you know, I think there might be

38:42

a little bit of fudging, but it does seem like they're from

38:45

what we can see so far, they've

38:47

really been kind of putting all this stuff in a really

38:50

compressed period of time. And I think, what

38:53

the election is a few days away or whatever,

38:55

right.

38:55

And they keep talking about the election and yeah, nothing

38:58

has happened, So it's like, yeah.

39:00

Yeah, so I think that. I mean my understanding

39:02

is, you know, and we still haven't even

39:04

had Logan's funeral, which

39:07

I assume will be the setting of

39:09

something.

39:10

Right.

39:11

You see the prediction here we are prediction.

39:13

Yeah, this is all a prediction. I haven't I haven't seen in the

39:15

head.

39:15

Yeah, okay, so we have four more episodes left,

39:18

Yeah, many unresolved. What do you think where

39:20

are going to? What are gonna be the big points that we see?

39:22

Have any any character development, any arcs, any

39:25

moments that you predict.

39:26

You know, I always think about like what Jesse

39:29

Armstrong, the showrunner, talks about, how you

39:32

know, his decision on when or

39:34

whether to have Logan die, And it

39:36

does seem like the kind of thing that a lesser

39:38

show would have done in you know, the second to last

39:40

episode or something like that, or you know, right at

39:42

the end and that's the end or whatever, right, And

39:45

so I love the fact that they did it pretty

39:47

early on. To me, I just am

39:49

trying to think, like put myself in Jesse Armstrong's

39:51

head, like what is he trying to what story is he trying

39:53

to tell about this, because he's always been obsessed

39:56

with the idea of what happens

39:58

when you have this big thing, what's the succession

40:01

that that happens, and how does

40:03

it play out? So I don't know. For me, I

40:06

don't think this is like necessarily going to be the big

40:08

thing, but like it would

40:11

be realistic to have you

40:14

know, this company that's the

40:16

heart and soul of its family, for better and worse,

40:19

mostly worse probably you know, be

40:22

purchased and kind of like sold for parts

40:24

and assets, you know, spun

40:26

off and like cause that's kind of sometimes what happens

40:28

in the real world, and that's capitalism and it's not

40:30

very exciting, but right, I

40:33

sometimes wonder if there's going to be that just sort of

40:36

dismantling element, Like

40:38

on a personal level. There

40:40

is an interesting shot that a lot of people

40:42

have picked up on. You know, people pick up

40:44

on all sorts of things. I don't think it necessarily

40:47

means anything more, but when Kendall

40:49

takes Shiv's seat and she has to sit

40:51

in another chair at the table, they

40:54

have a shot where she's shot from behind, kind of

40:56

like in the Logan Roy shot in

40:58

the opening credits where he's at the table behind.

41:01

So a lot of people are like, ooh, Kendall

41:03

took her spot, but as a result, she ended

41:05

up in that seat. Maybe that's a sign.

41:07

Okay's kind of thinking about.

41:09

That ever since. But that's I'm stealing

41:11

from Reddit theories there, like very blatantly.

41:14

But yeah, I don't know enough about Jesse Armstrong.

41:16

Just is he the kind of you know, creator

41:18

who would put that kind of easter egg in

41:20

there? Like has that happened before?

41:22

Like I don't know, is that like that feels like a not

41:25

a stretch but no, totally.

41:27

I know, you mean, I

41:29

feel like, yeah, like I'm more so

41:31

when I'm writing, I'm I'm going back to old episodes

41:33

and looking at like sometimes you

41:36

see old things in old episodes of

41:38

the script where you're like, wow, there's just a

41:40

remarkable amount of like continuity. Not

41:43

in an easter egg way, like it doesn't feel

41:45

like they're like trying to plant some like seed

41:47

that is not hacky, but but it

41:50

is interesting to see like the things that kind of carry

41:52

through. And I'm like, just even

41:54

in the context of like the Frank

41:56

Jerry Carl stuff like you when you go back,

41:59

you realize, oh wow, it was pretty

42:01

early on that. You know, they try

42:03

to like appoint her CEO like in episode

42:05

two and it's when Logan has just

42:07

had like a brain hemorrhage and she's like the

42:09

job that makes people's head explode, Like I don't

42:11

want that. Yeah, interesting, and you just start

42:13

to like realize these things have kind of been in motion

42:15

for longer than you'd like realize, right

42:18

right, Yeah, I mean, like I

42:20

don't know, I could also see it being

42:22

that Kendall really does sort of win,

42:25

but what is winning even mean, and

42:27

that he sort of just continues on like his

42:30

father's ways. It's

42:32

like, is that even a good thing? You know, Like it's

42:34

just kind of depressing.

42:35

Right, I mean, so much as this last episode was them

42:38

trying to imagine, like clearly

42:40

it's like trying to imagine what their father

42:42

would be doing or what he'd be like or

42:45

and and trying to execute in a totally

42:48

shitty, stupid, like misguided

42:50

way. Right. Yeah, I mean,

42:53

the Kendall thing is so interesting because like this

42:55

last episode was triumphant for him. He

42:57

seemed like he was like you know, on

42:59

draw Uggs and was like hatching

43:01

these crazy schemes and was going to like tank the company

43:04

and tank the deal and blah blah blah. And but then everybody's

43:06

like, oh, look, people really like this, Like you did a great he's doing

43:08

a great job, Like this is really good, and it's

43:10

sort of like, oh, he's emerging as a

43:13

capable leader or whatever. I

43:15

mean. One thing I did respond to, I have to say, is in

43:17

the scene where he does his like keynote speech

43:19

or whatever, where he starts talking

43:21

about living plus, which incredible, by the way. Whoever

43:24

is responsible in that writing writer's

43:26

room for the concept of Living

43:28

Plus as a real I mean to me, it feels

43:30

exactly like something that one of these companies would introduce,

43:33

no question, Like it is directly

43:35

from the playbook.

43:36

And like it's so perc how Manton is just like

43:38

cuts right through the right through it. But even

43:41

after he's done that, you're still watching the presentation

43:43

like huh and yeah, like I could

43:45

see that this is like.

43:46

Actually kind of a good Like it's like it's

43:49

yeah, I mean, I can see a large

43:51

company going like we're creating these like amazing

43:53

homes that they're going to be like high security.

43:55

I mean, think about like these gated communities in

43:57

all these different places. Like if you could sell that package

43:59

that like an apple product or whatever, I think

44:01

there is a one hundred percent of market for that and

44:04

so yeah, and so they captured that perfectly. But then

44:06

he starts going into like all this weird like I don't

44:08

know, like life extension stuff, and

44:10

then you know the part of that scene is they're

44:13

like, oh, like you know what it's The response

44:15

is pretty good, like we're seeing some good tweets about it

44:17

or whatever, and it's like you've been to

44:19

events like this, if you've been to one of these like corporate

44:21

events when the like when the Elon musker

44:24

whoever gets on stage, it starts talking shit. Like

44:26

whatever they're talking about, they

44:28

are just so full of shit most of the time, just

44:30

absolutely whether it's made

44:32

up on the spot or it's from a script or

44:34

whatever, Like there's so much of it that is just complete

44:36

horseshit, and it is you know, often sort

44:39

of bought by the public, you know, hook line

44:41

in synchro. And I was like, oh, this is like they're

44:43

really capturing both

44:46

the fakeness of the whole thing and

44:48

also how easy it is, Like that's

44:50

you were saying, Like even though you heard him

44:53

like hatching this stuff at like two in the morning

44:55

or whatever, you can see how you

44:57

can so easily be drawn into it as a concept.

44:59

You go like, yeah, like that seems workable, Like that

45:01

seems doable, Like I believe in that.

45:04

Yeah. And it's like meanwhile, I'm there and it's

45:06

like, why can't we cancel this precision

45:08

because it's already on the calendar. It's just one more

45:10

product. And then like to

45:12

your point, it's whoever is coming

45:14

up with this stuff, it's like the same that

45:17

we here for you in the last

45:19

season, like exactly the same

45:21

example. It was so perfect of just

45:23

like.

45:23

That yeah he is, Oh

45:25

my god, it's it's incredible

45:28

writing. And also I think like that one

45:30

of the talents of the people who write this show, you

45:32

know, not to just like hit

45:34

them with so much praise, but like they

45:37

just are really good at picking up what

45:39

is very real about this stuff and kind of

45:41

like just putting that unvarnished

45:43

on display. And that's what I find I think why

45:45

I'm so drawn into, like particularly the season, because there's

45:47

so much of the window dressing that they're kind of showing

45:50

so much of like the products

45:52

and the way that these companies actually

45:54

sort of like present their image to the world.

45:56

Like the whole thing about like you know, doing like bad

45:59

press about his dad. Now he wasn't really like

46:01

you know, in with it, and they were kind

46:03

of leading, you know, secretly or whatever. I think

46:06

that just feels like all the artifice kind of pulling

46:08

back and seeing how the sausage is made

46:10

for lack of a better term,

46:22

Okay, so is she going to

46:24

keep the baby?

46:26

Yes? I think so. One

46:28

thing I was trying to figure out is like if

46:30

Tom even knows that

46:33

she was trying, like, I mean, obviously,

46:35

I guess I don't know, Like, what does Tom

46:37

think is happening?

46:38

Right? Is it Tom's? Do we think it's Tom? It

46:40

could not be Tom?

46:41

I guess that is some people, Yeah, some people do

46:43

think that, like.

46:44

Right, maybe Also people were talking about

46:46

the fall, like maybe something's going to happen, like

46:48

because she fell at the at the wake

46:51

or whatever. So a bunch of people mentioned that to me,

46:53

Like I was talking about it with maybe Laura said

46:55

something about it, and then somebody else I was talking to said something about

46:57

it, like and I was like, oh, yeah, I hadn't

46:59

thought of it. I thought it was just like she was just flustered

47:01

and tripped or whatever. But I don't know, it's

47:04

start Yeah.

47:04

No, And I guess what's weird is that

47:06

if it is, if they really,

47:09

if there really are just a few days that have gone by,

47:11

like it could still like that ball

47:13

was only a couple of days ago, which right.

47:15

I mean a lot's happened in five

47:17

days or whatever, right, Like her and Tom were

47:19

total enemies like five days ago, and

47:21

now like they're back in some kind of weird

47:24

you know, death biting like romance.

47:27

Yeah, Bidey. I don't know that game I'm not familiar.

47:30

With, but they Yeah,

47:31

I grew up doing a lot of weird

47:33

you know, rope burns and all that, but Bidy was not

47:35

in the in the arsenal.

47:37

Yeah, Biddy's very strange. It's interesting you

47:39

mentioned like how they have no friends and stuff. The

47:41

thing with Kendall has a family, like this is the thing

47:43

that I every once in a while, I'll remember

47:46

Kendall has like several children, like

47:48

at least two, right, and like a

47:50

for an ex wife, and

47:53

they don't exist in his world like at all. I

47:55

know, like they're not there.

47:57

And it's strange because we have seen them

47:59

existing in his world, Like it's

48:01

not like I don't know if you're familiar with

48:03

sort of the Roman, like in season one

48:05

he had there was a woman named Grace

48:07

who watching it at the time

48:10

you kind of thought was maybe his wife. And there's a daughter,

48:12

but you know they've said, oh, it was just a girlfriend

48:14

and their daughter. But then he's also wearing a wedding

48:16

ring, so real storyline. Yeah, if

48:18

you go back to season one, like the first couple episodes

48:21

and that storyline kind of got written.

48:22

Out, Oh wow, Okay, I remember

48:25

vaguely like a girlfriend or something.

48:27

But yeah, and like I always just assumed

48:29

it was a girlfriend that had that had a child

48:31

and it wasn't his child, and I and I sort

48:33

of think that's what they have, like

48:36

like RT cond it into. But people

48:39

have pointed out, no, they're wearing wedding rings.

48:41

And but I say that to say

48:43

that, like, I think they sort of pushed

48:45

that away and obviously

48:47

did it well because I think a lot of people haven't

48:49

really thought about it since in order to

48:51

give Roman like more freedom

48:54

to you know, develop his

48:56

character, and you can kind of see

48:58

the constraints or black theo with

49:00

Kendall in the sense of that you do sometimes

49:03

think about, well, wait, wait, what about when he

49:05

was kind of hanging out with his kids a lot and taking them

49:07

to birthday parties?

49:08

I mean he did I guess he took them to uh

49:11

he took them wherever they were in Rome or something

49:13

is when.

49:13

He yeah, they were like in the pool. Yeah,

49:15

he was like the poor kids

49:18

come to Rome and see their dad like floating face

49:20

down on the pool, and they were.

49:22

Like side character. I mean they're like you know, you

49:24

know, props or basically it's.

49:26

Seemed like his ex wife is doing well. She seemed

49:28

to have a you know, she seems like

49:30

she's kind of living her best life.

49:31

So okay, I don't I have no recollection

49:33

of what last time when you even saw his ex wife,

49:36

Like when do we see her?

49:37

It was I'm pretty sure last

49:39

season at the beginning, he has

49:41

like a like an operational

49:44

thing set up in her apartment.

49:46

Yeah yeah, yeah, right, like his like his like

49:48

social media team is there.

49:49

And I think she even has like a new man yeah,

49:52

because I think she kicks him out once because she's like her

49:54

I forget the guy's name. He has like a meeting early

49:57

in the morning or something. But I was like, okay, good,

49:59

she's doing well. There was a

50:01

time where I was thinking, oh, I could see it

50:03

ending with you know, shive whatever

50:05

it is like with this baby

50:08

being somehow important because it's the next

50:10

generation. And then I was like, wait, there already is a next

50:12

generation, right iverson,

50:15

He's right there, right there, yeah.

50:16

Right exactly. Oh god, the daming so perfect.

50:20

It's the Kendall construction of

50:22

that character is just like incredible.

50:25

You're writing on it, and the insight is just so interesting

50:28

and everybody should read your stuff. It's all all

50:30

of it's at the Ringer, right, there's.

50:31

Nothing nowhere else.

50:33

Yeah, and so you've got four more

50:35

episodes to watch and observe

50:38

and write about. Are you going to are you going to feel

50:40

like? Is there going to be a sadness when Succession

50:42

ends? Are you preparing for it?

50:44

I think you know what, I think there will be, like, especially

50:47

you know, because I've been writing about it, I've been going

50:50

back and watching these old episodes and

50:52

I I'm now starting to see it

50:54

as this sort of big work of art

50:56

as a unit, and it's just I

50:58

don't know, I love this and I just think it's brilliant.

51:01

That said, whenever someone says I don't like

51:03

it, I'm like totally get you. I'm not

51:05

going to even try to convince you. You know, if you haven't

51:07

liked it by episode six of season one,

51:10

like you're done right. Yeah,

51:12

I'm not going to start liking it, but anyway, like I

51:14

will be sad. I respect

51:17

and admire the decision to

51:20

stop it after four seasons, Like that's a pretty

51:22

cool creative choice. And Jesse

51:24

Armstrong has obviously shown

51:26

that he has you know, really good

51:28

tastes and really good sensibilities.

51:31

I was joking like they should do some sort of

51:33

procedural spin off where you know, there's

51:35

some investment banking firm that

51:38

you know, and all these people are coming through. That's

51:40

kind of like the Good or something like that. You've got

51:42

these recurring characters.

51:44

No, they should do a spin off with the Emperor Penguins.

51:46

They should be about those characters and

51:48

like their lives, like what's going on at home with

51:50

those characters? I have no idea.

51:52

Well, and it's funny because having interviewed

51:54

them, they say like they kind of have no idea

51:57

either, which is so funny. Like Peter

51:59

Friedman, who plays was saying that sometimes

52:01

when there's little nuggets in the script about Frank's

52:04

past, he doesn't know if it's real or not

52:06

because he doesn't know if it's just the characters like roasting

52:08

him or actually based on like the no

52:11

bable of who's he exactly, like, right,

52:13

who's Frank? Yeah?

52:14

Right, that's amazing, that's incredible. Yeah,

52:16

No, I mean I spin off potential. I mean that's

52:20

I don't know. I don't know. This feels like a CAP's

52:22

like a time capsule to me, like this feels like one of

52:24

those shows like that if it ends, you

52:26

know, it's season four and that's it. It's going

52:29

to be perfect. It's going to be like what it needs

52:31

to be. These aren't there's no like you

52:33

said earlier one time, there isn't some

52:35

big explosive drama that's happening. It's actually

52:37

like in the grand scheme of things, it's a small

52:40

story. It's like, who's going to run the

52:42

old man's business when he kicks the bucket? Is really

52:44

the question? Right, Like that's all it is.

52:46

It's funny, Yeah, the number of freaking investor

52:49

meetings they have had, you know that it's

52:51

which is true to me, Yeah exactly. It's

52:53

just funny that they just basically like mark

52:56

time through Logan's birthday and investor

52:58

meetings and like that's that's the whole life

53:00

cycle of succession.

53:01

These days, the show's called succession.

53:04

Do you believe we will witness a succession?

53:07

I mean we've sort of I guess we have this like co CEO

53:09

situation. So but it all feels

53:11

like it's very impermanent, Like everybody's

53:14

kind of like, well, it's just you're just kind of keeping the seat

53:16

warm. Until like Mattson shows up

53:18

to break the company apart or whatever

53:21

final prediction. Does Matson

53:23

buy the company, sell it off for parts that do the kids

53:25

ultimately keep it?

53:28

I'm going to say, like, I think he buys it and sells

53:30

it off for parts. I think I could see them going with

53:32

a a not neatly

53:35

wrapped up satisfying

53:37

conclusion. I don't know

53:39

if it'll be that particular one, but like,

53:41

but that idea feels

53:44

interesting to me in a way that I could see

53:46

them playing with it.

53:48

Interesting interesting. I'm

53:50

going to say, since you know, I might as well

53:52

answer question. I think,

53:56

you know, it's got a real kind of no

53:58

exit thing going on, Like I

54:01

think it's possible, like they're in a room in

54:03

hell together, you know, like that, and then and

54:05

that's the room they're going to be in for the rest of their lives,

54:07

like constantly warring over

54:09

this, like inconsequential bullshit that

54:12

only matters to them, and only matters for

54:14

reasons that are like this is the

54:16

kind of esoteric like sentimental

54:19

pride and shit, you know, just like weird sort

54:21

of like familial stuff,

54:23

you know, like or

54:26

cousin Greg is going to become somehow b CEO.

54:28

I think there's a possibility that just

54:30

for some reason, somehow, like

54:33

his dad is the actor's

54:35

still alive, right, who plays his dad?

54:38

Believe?

54:38

So so weird question to ask it. So yeah,

54:41

it's like James Cromwell,

54:43

yes, who is also has a great character

54:46

arc in Six Feet Under, one of the greatest television

54:49

dramas of all time.

54:50

So funny because I was just about to reference Six

54:52

Feet Under in the sense of I'm thinking

54:54

of the finale where you see Billy

54:57

and uh, what's the what's the

54:59

women's saying I forgot his sister Brenda

55:01

Billiam Brenda and it's like there, all

55:03

these years later, they're still together bickering

55:06

and he's just like talking at her and

55:08

she's so bored, and like I

55:10

love that. Yeah.

55:11

The Six Feet Under ending is I think iconic

55:13

and like just so over the

55:15

top and it's like taking it to

55:17

its logical conclusion, like just unbelievable.

55:20

Like Laura actually introduced me to that

55:22

show. She had watched it. She's like, oh my god, we have to

55:24

watch it, and I was like just absolutely devastating.

55:26

Made the crossover between the two shows, right,

55:29

Yeah, it would be funny to imagine the logan

55:32

episode of Six Feet Under. You know, the opening

55:34

scene of him in the aeroplane bathroom.

55:36

No, that's a great idea, that's amazing.

55:39

Well, his death is very six feet

55:41

Under. I mean a lot of that show is like people

55:44

dying in the most stupid or mundane ways,

55:46

because that is what happens, right, like, like, you

55:48

know, what is the story, Like Tom says, he was like trying

55:50

to fish his iPhone out of the toilet.

55:53

That Carl clogged. He says, by the way,

55:55

which I didn't even hear until I watched it like the third

55:57

time.

55:58

Such an unglamorous, sad,

56:01

little death for such a big man. And

56:03

that is like and that's sort of like it's a interesting

56:05

fuck you, Like he didn't die in

56:07

some heroic yeah, or even like I

56:09

don't know.

56:10

Emotional like yeah, final

56:12

goodbye.

56:12

Yeah, just that, but like death, I mean

56:15

that was I actually thought that episode. Sorry, I know we keep

56:17

going down rabbit holes, but I thought that episode was one

56:19

of the finest depictions I've ever seen of what it's really

56:21

like to get bad news, like the way

56:23

the bad news, not the whole thing, because I actually thought they

56:25

went on a bit long with the with the whole like kids

56:28

find it out thing, It just felt like it took a little

56:30

longer than needed to. But I was like at

56:32

the end of it, I was like, you know, I think they could have edited down, like fifteen

56:34

minutes of that could have been edited straight out and it would have

56:36

been fine. But the way the news

56:39

is communicated and the call comes through and that whole

56:41

thing is like, I'm like, this is exactly what it's like

56:43

when somebody tells you that somebody has died. This is the exact

56:45

feeling, and this sort of like

56:47

the way it like sounds when you're listening to them

56:49

on the phone, or when you know, if you're listening to somebody

56:52

get the news or whatever. Anyhow, we

56:54

got to wrap up, Katie. This has been so fascinating,

56:56

not only the succession talk which is

56:58

Lee, which was like I wanted to get into

57:00

and it was desperate to get into because I really was

57:03

hoping to do this kind of stupidly

57:06

detailed exploration with you. So I'm

57:08

glad that we did it, but like the what a

57:10

fascinating, Like You've had such a fascinating career

57:13

and like I had no idea what a

57:15

long strange trip it had been for you to

57:17

the world of journalism, and is

57:20

this it? Are you done? You're not going to go back to Goldmen or

57:22

anything.

57:23

Who knows if they'd ever have me back? But no. I mean,

57:25

I'm it's been funny like writing

57:27

about Succession the last few months,

57:29

and I'm like, this is kind of silly,

57:32

but also kind of nice.

57:34

This has become like my mini beat for a little while

57:36

here.

57:37

With your background, I would imagine there's

57:39

a lot of like material there

57:41

from those like that World of Money that would

57:43

be really anyhow, this is great. You got to

57:45

come back and we got to do this again.

57:48

You know, we should talk about the show Industry or something down

57:50

the road. I don't know if you've ever watched that show.

57:52

It's kind of interesting our industry.

57:53

I have.

57:54

I have watched so Industry. I have

57:56

watched alone because Laura hated it. When

57:58

I'm like alone in front of the TV and I want to watch

58:01

something, that's one of those shows that I've put on because

58:03

i know Laura won't watch it with me and

58:05

doesn't care about it. So I'm like, Okay,

58:08

I'm not going to like try to you know, because I'm not going to watch,

58:10

you know, an important show. Yeah, he's interesting.

58:12

It is definitely in the family.

58:15

I thought season I like season two a lot better than season

58:17

one, and now I'm they've like hooked me

58:19

a little bit more than I is it?

58:20

Are they continuing to make Industry? Is that going to be a show

58:23

they're getting? Yeah?

58:23

So season three there I think filming

58:26

now? And the guy that

58:28

what's the guy the guy from Game of Thrones? You

58:31

know nothing, John

58:33

Snow, John Snow.

58:34

Isn't it John's coming to

58:36

industry? It's just

58:38

John Snowe's coming to industry would sell

58:41

a lot, put a lot of asses in seeds. Actually, all

58:43

right, fine, maybe I'll finish season two of Industry

58:45

and then and then we'll have talk about it. Or maybe I'll

58:47

watch all of Yellowstone on a Blu ray box

58:50

set and and give you my take

58:52

on What was the character you mentioned? What was her name?

58:54

Oh, Beth Button, Debbie Boone or you'll see

58:57

Debbie Boone. That's actually her.

58:58

That's what that's a person, that's a verse.

59:01

What did you do do this her day?

59:03

That's her character's day, that's her characters?

59:05

Da am I?

59:05

Yeah, I don't even know. Here's the thing about Yellowstone. Sorry,

59:07

I know we're just so over time here, but like I don't

59:09

even know when it's set. Like in my mind it's like

59:11

a Western set in the old days. But it's not, is

59:14

it.

59:14

It's a modern got to like go on

59:16

the journey for yourself. I guess you want to tell me.

59:19

There must be some shows that are not set in present day

59:21

because they're called nineteen twenty three

59:25

three? Okay, good, all right, Well listen, this

59:27

is great. You got to come back. We're going to talk about industry, We're

59:29

going to talk about Yellowstone, and then some secret

59:32

third thing that has yet to be put on television yet,

59:34

and we're going to have a long conversation about it. Thank

59:37

you so much for doing this.

59:37

I really enjoyed it you as well.

59:40

Thanks for having me.

59:47

Well that is our show for this week. I mean, I

59:49

think there's a good chance I'm going to be discussing

59:51

Succession after next week's episode,

59:54

and so just going to be filling this the

59:56

next one with huge spoilers about whoever

59:58

is going to die next that show. But

1:00:01

anyhow, we'll be back with more what

1:00:04

future, And as always, I wish you and your family

1:00:06

the very best