0:19

Hey, and welcome to What Future.

0:21

I'm your host, Josh Wazapolski, and

0:24

today I got to say we've got a banger

0:26

of an episode. I'm very excited about

0:28

it. In fact, it's such a great conversation

0:31

that I don't even want to waste

0:33

time telling you about how great it's going to be. I

0:35

don't want to sit here and

0:37

ramble, because you should

0:40

just listen to it.

0:40

You should just hear it.

0:42

I had the rare and wonderful

0:44

opportunity to talk to the actor,

0:47

comedian, writer Nicholas

0:49

Rutherford Nick Rutherford if you want

0:52

to, If you want to go by his more casual

0:54

name, he's an executive producer. I'm

0:56

Rick and Morty and a super smart,

0:58

funny guy. And we had a killer

1:00

conversation and I want to get right

1:02

into it, So let's go Rutherford.

1:21

Am I saying that right? Your name is pronounced Rutherford Nick

1:24

Rutherford Topolski

1:26

is correct. According to your

1:28

Wikipedia page, which you have, you're

1:31

an actor, a comedian, a

1:34

writer, and a co founder of the Sketch comedy

1:36

group Good neighbor.

1:38

But are you a Patriot? That's

1:40

what I'd like to know.

1:42

Oh, I mean, I think

1:44

I'm the best type of patriot at patriot

1:46

who holds his country's feet to

1:48

the fire. Yeah, you know, patriot

1:50

who asked the questions that a lot of patriots

1:53

don't like. For instance, Yeah, for

1:56

instance, what is arbor Day?

1:58

Yeah? What is arbor Day?

1:59

I think that's a solebration of trees, right, Okay,

2:02

yeah, I assume so. But I mean arbor

2:04

is like, are like, that's a tree thing.

2:06

Yeah. I think if you're like an arbor rist,

2:09

you're a tree scientist.

2:10

Yeah, let's look at them. What is arbor Day?

2:12

So it's tree Day? So isn't it's

2:14

an Earth Day, doesn't covered trees.

2:17

It's a secular day of observance

2:19

which individuals and groups are encouraged to plant

2:21

trees.

2:23

Is it a national holiday? Might be?

2:25

Yeah, it's national arbor Day.

2:26

It's not a government holiday. We don't get

2:29

work offs right now.

2:29

They don't give you off for it.

2:30

They don't give you don't give you a day off to plant

2:32

a tree. That would be That's

2:34

the kind of thing that Republicans talk about

2:37

as like the end state of liberals.

2:39

Of what liberals want is they're

2:42

going to stop you from working so you can go

2:44

out and plant a tree. That's like a that's

2:46

like a conservative nightmare scenario.

2:49

You know, you don't get worse worst case

2:51

the.

2:51

Worst scenarios you have to like forced to

2:53

take off work and go plant a tree by you

2:55

know, liberals anyhow. Yeah, Also, we don't

2:57

have to talk about politics. I don't even know how. I guess

3:00

because I asked you you're if you're a patriot. That was a huge

3:02

miss Yeah, huge missed up on my part. But now

3:04

you led it there pretty quickly.

3:05

Yeah, I did.

3:06

That's my fucking that's my fault. Are you a very

3:08

political person? Do you feel politically

3:10

minded?

3:11

Totally motivated?

3:12

I think as I get a bit older, I get a

3:14

little more politically involved. I like to be politically

3:16

involved on a local level. I think that's kind

3:18

of what's missing, like in your house. Yeah,

3:21

those neighborhood councils, right.

3:24

Are you on aunt? Are you on a city council or somebody

3:26

honest neighborhood?

3:27

Oh no, but I thought I wanted to be. I wanted

3:29

to get on my neighborhood council. And then I

3:32

pitched that idea to somebody a friend, and

3:34

they were like, absolutely, do not do that.

3:36

It'll just it's it's still suck your life

3:38

away, which is a bummer. You know that those

3:41

jobs should be those positions should

3:43

be fun desirable.

3:44

Yeah, no, no, no, for sure.

3:46

Uh like local getting involved

3:48

in local government or local like neighborhood

3:50

sort of stuff is for a certain type of

3:52

individual, which is why you you end up with a

3:55

lot of really old people doing it, because it is a huge

3:57

time sock, I believe, And it's kind of like the

3:59

work is not very rewarding in a lot

4:01

of ways, and I don't think they even pay or

4:03

they pay very little. Yeah, my wife

4:06

opened a bookstore in our town, and

4:08

I mean I helped a little bit, but.

4:10

It's really hers.

4:10

And what did you do?

4:12

Well?

4:12

I built the shelves and I picked the wallpaper. And

4:15

she's become like a member of whatever the business

4:18

you know, the.

4:20

Business alliance. Yeah, yeah, you know she has to go

4:22

to meeting this Yeah.

4:24

Yeah, it doesn't sound fun, I guess, but she

4:26

enjoys it because she likes she

4:28

likes tedious shit, which is

4:30

why we're married. And she's and she's elderly,

4:33

she's she's also eighty five years old,

4:35

and so that's really helpful, right

4:38

for her she got a blody of time and nowhere

4:40

to go.

4:41

Okay, So so you have an Emmy, is that

4:43

right? Yeah?

4:44

Yeah, I do.

4:45

You worked on Rick and Morty.

4:47

Yeah, well I'm currently working on Rick and Morty.

4:49

I mean not currently because we're on strike.

4:51

Oh right, well ha I.

4:52

We're going to get to the strike because there's a lot of talk about there. But

4:54

first I want to I want to explore your your Emmy

4:57

wins. How many Emmys do you have?

4:59

Well?

4:59

Now one and I

5:01

have what I won one and I've

5:03

lost one Emmy and I'm up for not

5:06

me. The show's up for an Emmy, but I'm included in

5:08

the ship one. I mean I got one. Yeah, as

5:10

a as a as a producer. So I'm an EP.

5:12

I'm executive producer on Rick and Morty. Now

5:15

at the time, I was some lower producer, but

5:17

I still made the cut, you.

5:20

Know, executive producer. That's pretty big deal.

5:22

That's a big that is uh,

5:25

it's one of the big ones. And let me tell you

5:27

it's it's just it's all it's

5:30

all in a name.

5:32

You don't actually do anything.

5:34

No, no, I don't do anything. Yeah, no,

5:36

no, you know, I watched cuts and we look at edits

5:38

and I've written songs. You're a song

5:41

producer. Now I'm a song producer.

5:42

Are you really?

5:44

Mm hmm. That's great because I like to put songs

5:46

in my episodes and then I get it and like write him

5:48

with the Ryan Elder, who's our composer.

5:51

He does really all the hard musical lifting, and I

5:53

just write silly lyrics and the melodies.

5:55

Right, that's the best. That's that's like, uh, that's

5:57

led Zeppelin right there. It's like John Paul Jones

5:59

was, I mean all the hard work, like you know, Jimmy Page is

6:01

right in the riffs. And then Robert Plant was just like, I'm gonna

6:04

write about Lord of the Rings. Is that cool?

6:06

Like I'm gonna do a song about Lord of the Rings.

6:08

I don't know if you know much about led zeppam they have several

6:10

songs about Lord of the Rings.

6:11

Uh oh yeah, because like Lord of the Rings

6:14

was kind of big for like metal, like

6:16

rock and roll, right extra they were

6:19

mystical guys.

6:22

I mean he you know Robert Plant, he talks

6:24

about Golam in one of the uh and

6:27

Gollum or whatever the guy's name is from Gollum.

6:29

He references him by name and at least

6:31

one song if not uh, and he

6:34

talks about Mordor like specifically.

6:36

It's actually really funny when you think about it, like,

6:38

uh, like you would hear a song

6:41

on the radio these days that just like specifically

6:43

talking about.

6:43

Lord of the Rings, like characters and Lord of the Rings.

6:46

It's like a band today, did it did a song

6:48

about like the Rings of Power on amzok?

6:50

Yeah?

6:51

Right, there's no history

6:53

of this yet. When you think about led Zeppan though, they were

6:55

like so sexy. People were like these

6:57

fuck, I'll fuck these guys no matter what, Like

6:59

how do I get to them? I want to have sex with Robert Planting

7:02

And meanwhile he's like on stage literally fucking

7:04

singing about the biggest

7:06

nerd shit that it's the hugest turn off

7:08

for most people, like literally name

7:11

checking characters from the Lord of the Rings. But it's

7:13

like it's it's a weird it's a weird

7:15

it was weird time in the world.

7:16

That was a time too in nerdship was nerd

7:18

shit like nerd yeah, feet up, no.

7:20

No, no, this was like in the seventies,

7:23

like like Lord of the Rings was not cool in the seventies,

7:25

like like, I mean, I'm not even sure it's cool

7:27

now, Like, to be honest.

7:29

With you, it's just like it's become popular enough. But yeah,

7:31

very strange.

7:32

Anyhow, Uh so we

7:34

were talking at the fuck were we? Oh your

7:36

Emmys? Okay,

7:38

so we're talking about you writing songs in order to get

7:41

Emmys.

7:42

Uh. You don't get Emmys for songwriting

7:44

though, do you?

7:44

No?

7:45

But I want to That did great, they get a Grammy.

7:47

But so when Ricky Marty won one

7:49

year, it was a zoom Emmys. It

7:51

was like the pandemic Emmys.

7:52

Oh that sucks. I'm sorry.

7:54

Yeah, yeah, no, it's I mean, congratulations but no. But

7:56

yeah it's also great, right.

7:57

I mean you still got the Emmys.

7:58

Okay, yemmy.

7:59

Yeah.

8:00

It to my house months later and I had to watch

8:02

it on a laptop screen. But the day

8:04

of the Emmys, I was actually recording

8:06

a podcast with my friend Nick Turner.

8:09

Oh my god, who was like, well,

8:11

all we're going to do is we're going to go metal

8:13

detecting at the beach and

8:16

I was like that should be fine. We should be done by

8:18

the time the Emmys start. And

8:20

we were metal detecting and I texted one of

8:22

the other producers like, hey, so, what time do the

8:24

Emmys start, and like when are we up? And

8:27

he wrote back, I was probably wearing

8:29

a tank top in short and I'm like a,

8:31

you know, like a panama hat and I was metal

8:33

detecting and Santa Monica. And

8:36

he replies immediately they started

8:38

right now, and we're the first one up,

8:41

like we're the very first award. And

8:43

so I told Nick and Nick I was like, guys, I am

8:46

sorry, we have to I have to go to

8:48

their credit. They were like, oh Jesus, of course absolutely.

8:51

And then we all piled in the car and zipped across

8:53

town and somehow found

8:56

like a live stream of the Emmys on one of our

8:58

phones. And when we pulled

9:01

it up, the first thing we saw was Dan Harmon, one

9:03

of the creators of Rick and Morty, was giving

9:05

his pre recorded acceptance speech. Oh,

9:08

and we were like, I think

9:11

we won. Maybe we won, or I was like, we

9:13

don't know. Maybe they also show the losers

9:15

pre recorded acceptance speeches because

9:17

it's the pandemic really cruel.

9:19

Actually, like we got to fill time, like

9:22

just everybody record. We don't know who's gonna win. Everybody

9:24

record up. We need speech though, and then we'll

9:26

just show them all.

9:27

Well that's I mean, they somebody has

9:30

access to all of these videos. Everybody had to

9:32

record a speech Academy.

9:35

They couldn't cut. They couldn't cut live to to

9:37

Dan like speaking.

9:39

That would have been way more fun. It was pre recorded.

9:41

Yeah, it was probably a live host, but you

9:43

know, I mean it was, but anyway, it was not.

9:46

It wasn't as glamorous of an event as you

9:48

would hope.

9:49

So you haven't won an Emmy in person, that's what you're saying.

9:51

I lost an Emmy in person, though,

9:54

is it not the same? Who did you lose to? The

9:57

animation category is

9:59

odd? So we lost to an hour

10:01

long Netflix anime drama.

10:04

Oh that is like all cgi

10:06

and it's very pretty, but it's a drama. It's

10:08

like, how do you put like a very nihilistic

10:10

comedy, half hour comedy

10:13

against an hour long drama.

10:16

You know?

10:16

And so this year, so we lost, and we was very upsetting.

10:18

And this year we're also up against Netflix

10:21

again. The Netflix show quote unquote

10:23

is a full feature

10:26

length animated movie, which is not

10:28

even a show. I don't know, I don't know, I

10:30

don't know, I should know.

10:31

A hit or miss over there. You never know, it could be one of the

10:33

bad ones. Maybe you've got a good chance. Maybe they

10:35

maybe they're nominating shit. You know, that does

10:38

seem unfair, Like why put a show

10:40

against the movie?

10:40

First off?

10:41

That feels like I think the animation

10:43

category is mature enough that you could have like

10:45

subcategories, right, you could have like

10:47

there should be animated comedy, you could have animated

10:50

drama. You could do like,

10:53

Yeah, I feel like movies and

10:55

shows should not go against each other. I think

10:57

that's like a totally weird I

10:59

think it's the very least you'd separate those out.

11:02

You know, I don't want to be a you

11:04

know, right, it's fun, but

11:06

you want that I want that Emmy, of course. Yeah,

11:08

what's better than one Emmy? Two Emmys? But

11:11

we're also in the we're in the Creative

11:13

Arts Emmys, oh, which is like

11:16

the week before the televised big fun

11:18

Emmys.

11:18

It's fucking that's so wild, Like they're

11:21

not even like that you guys get to be part of like

11:23

the regular Emmys.

11:24

You guys are like a special effect. Is that the idea

11:26

you're like sound design, that's.

11:27

Exactly right, it's exactly right. We're like sound

11:30

engineers and stuff, and all these are critical jobs. I'm not

11:32

poopoing these.

11:32

Jobs, no, but it's just it's just like you're creating

11:34

a TV show as much as anybody else's.

11:36

It just happens to be animated.

11:38

Yeah, right, And it's like you know, it's always against Simpsons

11:40

and Bob's Burger. It's all these legacy shows, right,

11:42

and it's it's in between like best

11:45

Animal Handler.

11:46

Right, in a way, there's an argument, there

11:49

is an argument that should those shows

11:51

just be in the regular category,

11:53

not even animated, like just the quality of

11:55

the show. Who cares about the format? I

11:57

mean, who cares about whether it's a drawn these

12:00

people are drawn? Or I

12:02

mean, I don't know, that's a tough That would be tough though, right, because then you'd

12:04

be up against like a better call Saul. Yeah,

12:06

I'm sure, well no, because that's isn't that an hour

12:09

long drama? You wouldn't those aren't all like you don't put

12:11

a sitcom against the drama. Don't they have categories

12:13

for those?

12:14

I know nothing about it.

12:15

Everything I'm talking about the animated categories

12:17

is there. The category is just anything that's drawma.

12:19

Yeah, well see, I know. I guess

12:21

I have been out of touch with the m is.

12:23

I actually think.

12:23

Award shows are should be banned.

12:25

I think they're bad for society.

12:28

But I'm glad that you won an Emmy. I'm very I'm happy

12:30

for you, But I also think that the fundamental

12:33

idea of the Emmy is bad.

12:35

For weren't they initially

12:37

went the oscars at least initially

12:39

like a union busting thing.

12:41

That sounds right to me.

12:42

Maybe we should know this right now because we're at

12:44

a critical juncture. I'm

12:47

sure for you have probably several unions

12:49

that you're striking with right now.

12:51

Right Yeah, I'm striking with sag After

12:54

and WJA, I'm double striking.

12:56

Do you are you all on one picket line or do you google

12:58

across town like to another picket

13:00

line for the like the actors.

13:02

Now, they it's all it's all mixed. It's like

13:04

a big mixer. And it was

13:06

nice when the acting when zag got involved,

13:08

because they brought a lot of energy to the picket line.

13:11

But they also love the sag After

13:13

a crew really loves doing picket

13:15

line karaoke. Who and

13:17

I feel like we should be a little more stoic

13:20

out there.

13:20

No, no, nothing. Nobody should be seemingly having

13:22

fun. It should be.

13:23

People should be they've made it a party.

13:25

Yeah, I mean in a way, I mean,

13:27

I know it is very wrong for whoever cut back

13:29

those trees to not provide shade for people.

13:31

But in a way, I think sweating

13:34

in the heat with your picket sign

13:36

shows the struggle.

13:38

You know, it makes the struggle look more. But we're

13:41

willing to will fight. Yeah you don't.

13:43

I actually think you're gonna you lose people. I'm

13:45

not telling anybody how to strike, by the way, as a person who's

13:47

never been on strike, I

13:49

shouldn't really comment on it, but I just feel like

13:52

you want people to see uh suffering.

13:54

You want people to feel like that there's

13:57

pain being inflicted on you. In a way, yeah,

13:59

you.

13:59

Want to look like a dust bowl like food

14:01

line.

14:02

Yeah, I would, if anything, I would have to get those actors

14:04

dressing up.

14:04

They probably have costumes laying around. I would assume.

14:07

Absolutely, like they should all

14:09

be in like nineteen twenties, like fucking

14:11

Woody Guthrie shit like out there.

14:13

Right, like patch elbows on their

14:15

peers and.

14:16

The fucking thing like their their picket

14:18

sign should be on that whatever those

14:20

things are that are batable.

14:22

What are they called.

14:23

It's a bindle, the like a little handkerchief

14:25

filled with yeah you're good, yeah

14:28

for a train jumping.

14:30

Yeah.

14:30

I think I think they're missing opunity all

14:33

about this you toodle podcast,

14:35

right, I figure. I think I think they're

14:37

missing an opportunity to actually uh

14:39

engage in their craft in a way

14:42

like, don't go out there and sing

14:44

fucking songs. Go out and pretend to

14:46

be a nineteen twenties

14:49

striker, you know, cover yourself an

14:51

oil or something and.

14:52

Be like, rather, can't you spare a dime?

14:54

Yeah?

14:55

Yes, you know, I mean it is.

14:56

It is tough because like obviously there's these huge

14:59

strikes going on, and clearly, I mean from

15:01

my money, and I'm not an expert on anything,

15:04

but seems like the studios are

15:06

in the wrong here on a bunch of different levels.

15:08

And it feels like some of the some of the gives

15:11

that are required would in no way damage their

15:13

actual businesses in any meaningful

15:15

manner.

15:16

It seems that way, you know, at least infographics.

15:18

I see, I see all that shit, and it's like, oh,

15:20

this would be like less than one percent of their

15:22

total profit to like fix these problems

15:24

or some shit like that.

15:25

Yeah, yeah, it's like nothing.

15:27

I mean, you know writers and actors.

15:29

That sounds like a luxury gig. I think there's a there

15:31

is a thing that happens with the creative arts.

15:35

Obviously it provides a huge amount of things to the

15:37

rest of society. But also, like these are real jobs.

15:39

Not everybody is like Brad Pitt, Like there are

15:41

people who just have like day jobs. They have the bike,

15:43

like fucking less than minimum

15:45

wage or whatever. Essentially, like if you add it all

15:48

up, like just do not everybody is a super huge

15:50

success, right, Like they're just working.

15:51

Yeah. I think that the consensus is

15:53

like, oh, you've been on TV once, you're a

15:56

millionaire. Yeah, and that is far far

15:58

from the truth.

15:58

I mean when I was a kid, I used to think if you were on TV,

16:01

it was like you were famous,

16:04

like you had made it.

16:05

Like if you went on too.

16:06

I think it might have been more like

16:08

that. Well a there was like four shows on

16:10

TV, four channels, four shows, yeah,

16:13

and they just played constantly. But now

16:15

with the streamers everything, I mean, these these

16:17

points have been poured over

16:19

many times and I'm not going to do any favors

16:22

to them. So I think now it's the

16:24

market is so flooded and there's so many things,

16:26

and there's new media contracts and there's streaming

16:28

contracts right right, and it's

16:30

so the pay has gone down and residuals are

16:32

kind of non existent because everything's streaming. And

16:35

for whatever reason, when they sorted out the streaming stuff,

16:37

all the unions were kind of like, yeah, whatever, we'll we'll

16:40

just figure it out down the line, right, And

16:42

now we're like, wait a second.

16:43

It's probably like not that big of a deal. I mean, it's

16:46

always like this. I mean, this has happened, you know in

16:48

media, like in news media. It was like when

16:50

Google started. But he was like, hm, that could be a problem.

16:52

They were like this is a cute little thing that the nerds are

16:55

messing around with. Like hey, YouTube, that's

16:57

not a problem. That's not a threat to us, right.

16:59

YouTube was like huh, that could be a thing.

17:02

But that's the difference between you know, the people

17:04

who make those things and the legacy whatever

17:06

people who are like yeah, we're we'll

17:09

our business will never be threatened, nothing

17:11

will ever change. It is really like a weird thing

17:13

that people are like feel impervious

17:15

to change and when it's like obviously happening

17:18

constantly around us. Yeah,

17:30

whoever takes the side of the company,

17:33

Like, I can't imagine a scenario where I'm like, actually,

17:35

how dare these teachers ask for more money? Right?

17:38

The fat cats at the top they what's going

17:40

on?

17:40

Yeah, Like, I mean, you know, it's like hard

17:42

to imagine going like, well, I think Disney is

17:45

getting a raw deal here, you know, Like

17:47

that's like I don't think that's an Netflix.

17:49

We gotta hey, come on, we gotta help Netflix out.

17:51

Man. They're really struggle subscriber bases

17:53

down.

17:54

Yeah, I mean, but the thing is, you know, it's tough

17:56

because it's creative, and like anything creative,

17:58

people are basically like there's no value

18:00

attached to it in a weird way, like, yes, you love

18:02

to go see movies, but like when

18:05

you really think about like the people who make the movie.

18:07

You kind of don't give a shit. Like most people kind of don't give

18:09

a shit.

18:09

They don't think it's like toiling in a factory, and it is

18:11

not to some extent, although plenty of those

18:13

jobs are really hard labor, and like I'm

18:16

not saying an actor's job is like, you know, building

18:18

a fucking ac in it

18:20

in a factory, but like it's

18:22

it's I think there's this interesting disconnect I feel

18:24

sort of happening now where like the strike's going on

18:27

so long that people I can almost

18:29

see. I don't think people's like attitudes are turning, but I

18:31

think it's hard. I guess this is as we were talking about

18:33

the dust Bowl costumes or whatever, like how

18:35

do you make people continue to care about

18:37

it? You know, when there's all this stuff going on

18:40

that that feels like more important?

18:42

And I don't know, maybe you have an answer to that to that question,

18:44

I don't know.

18:45

I mean it's tough. I'm really curious

18:47

what you think the temperature is of the

18:49

public perception outside of the entertainment industry,

18:51

because it's tough being within it. Yeah,

18:53

you know, my echo chamber is just like why

18:56

won't they just give up one point six percent of

18:58

their like end of the line propuit fits and to satisfy

19:01

everybody? Yeah, but I wonder, like the

19:03

are the average strange or things? Fan? Are

19:05

they just like, what's when's the next season coming? Get

19:07

back to work?

19:08

One hundred percent. They're not. They're not.

19:10

I don't think they consider it. I don't think they're like, hey,

19:12

what happened? But then when does the I guess that's

19:14

the question. With all this abundance, I mean, this is sort

19:16

of the part of the problem, right, Like this huge abundance

19:19

of content means that you

19:21

basically like never feel like you're

19:23

running out and like is there this thing

19:26

is a thing happening now, where like before it would

19:28

have stopped TV, would have stopped film, Like,

19:30

but there's so much shit that's just like

19:32

accumulated on these streaming services

19:35

and in the on these you know, the shelves

19:37

of a Disney or whatever, that people

19:40

don't feel it the way they used to write, like, you

19:42

know, like it's like all this shit's going on. And then

19:44

there's like Barbie and Oppenheimer, the two biggest

19:46

like films of the year that seem

19:49

to be totally outside

19:51

of this reality of striking

19:53

or whatever. You know, Like, yeah,

19:56

presumably all of the people who worked on those

19:58

movies, who wrote for and acted

20:01

in them are all striking, right, they are members

20:03

of these unions.

20:04

Oh absolutely, And also like probably

20:06

not supposed to promote it. I think that I

20:09

think Barbie came out pre SAG strike. I

20:11

don't remember for sure, but like you know, Margot,

20:13

Robbie and Gosling are going to go out and promote the movie

20:15

of course, right, but it is a weird thing. It's a hard

20:17

thing to celebrate this great film when we're also

20:19

fighting for viable existences

20:22

and trying to like pave a path forward

20:24

for other people to enter this industry. And

20:26

the saddest thing is, like, you know, within the Rick and Morty

20:28

world, within my bubble,

20:31

there's people are getting

20:33

let go every day, people who aren't in WJ

20:35

and aren't in SAG. But it's like, well, we're not in

20:38

production, we're not writing new episodes, and

20:40

we don't need this production coordinator, so good

20:43

luck. We have hope to see you when it comes

20:45

back.

20:45

And all the industries that are attached to like making

20:48

this stuff presumably are getting eviscerated

20:50

right now.

20:51

Right absolutely, But I mean

20:53

to the other side, it's an absolute,

20:55

necessary, critical strike, and I do like

20:57

that it feels like we're part of a larger labor

21:00

movement now and standing up

21:02

against these like big giant conglomerates

21:04

and being and doing so successfully, you

21:06

know, they had the ups strike, which is like settled

21:09

in a day. Yeah, I think there's like a

21:11

like airline attendance are now or

21:13

like now kind of mustering up. I think that

21:16

all of the animators who do s

21:18

like special effects for Marvel movies have

21:21

basically going to strike and say no, we want to unionize

21:23

too. And I think that's great, the fact that it's like becoming

21:26

you know, whatever, we'll we'll get a better

21:28

deal at the end of the day. But I hope it also opens

21:31

the conversation up for other people to be like, yeah,

21:33

well we should have a better deal too, What the hell's

21:35

going on? And I think that's happening.

21:37

You know.

21:37

It's funny, like I come from a family

21:39

of like socialists, like Jews.

21:42

Like my great aunt was like a labor

21:44

organizer.

21:45

You know. They were like, oh that's cool, you know she had like lunch

21:47

with Trotsky, but she was like, you know, like

21:50

they moved from like Ukraine to Pittsburgh

21:53

and was like, you know, helped to start like a you

21:56

know space, like a socialist labor group whatever. So like

21:58

I get like, I get this, and it's easy interesting

22:00

because like it is there's a there is a bit of

22:02

a frame in America for sure, especially

22:05

in America that like unions are

22:07

evil and unions are bad. It's like people have bought

22:09

the line of the corporations

22:12

and like, I don't like grudge a

22:14

corporation for making a lot of money, but I think

22:16

when you see the fucking disparity, you

22:19

know, the pandemic was really interesting where it's like

22:21

Amazon's like there, it's just being so

22:24

much money is being accumulated there while

22:26

everybody else is like eating shit,

22:28

and it's like, yeah, this feels wrong, Like it

22:30

feels like there's some disparity and how do you how

22:33

do you balance it?

22:34

How do you ever balance it? And the only way that anybody

22:36

has to balance.

22:36

It is like is collective action now because

22:38

it's because they are these corporations

22:41

are so massive and have so much power and so much money

22:43

that it's impossible to to really,

22:45

like on a one to one level, affect

22:47

anything that they do. And like I think it's amazing,

22:51

Like I love the fact that people are I don't love the people

22:53

are striking, Like people shouldn't have to strike.

22:55

But right, yeah, the ups that's.

22:56

Interesting, you basically was interesting, like

23:00

and picketting is exciting. You know, it's

23:02

fun. I don't know, it feels really fun to be a

23:04

part and that's such a pervilect thing to say, Oh, it's

23:06

fun to be a part of a labor right now or a

23:08

labor movement. But I mean, like you

23:10

see people activating on the street, you run into all

23:12

these old friends, everybody's walking in the miserable,

23:14

miserable heat. It's a cool thing

23:17

to be a part of, and it's important. And

23:19

you know, nobody's going to get Stranger Things season six

23:22

or whatever it is, well until they

23:24

start paying people.

23:25

Well, you know, but it's also part of this. I think there's this just

23:28

overwhelming amount of content. Like I just

23:30

think there was a time when,

23:32

I mean, when the Stranger Things began, there

23:34

actually were not that many shows being

23:36

produced by Netflix, you know, like it

23:39

I mean, I don't know how many years ago it was, but it

23:41

was, you know a handful

23:43

of things were coming out of Netflix, not like

23:45

a new show every day. And

23:47

now we just have this

23:50

not just Netflix, it's like all of these services

23:52

just feel like they have so over indexed

23:55

on content and so much

23:57

of it is like really mediocre.

23:59

You know.

24:00

The other thing that's happening, which is really

24:03

wild and disheartening is and

24:06

it's basically legal insurance fraud. So

24:08

this guy's Zaslov, who is like now the CEO

24:11

of Warner Brothers Warner Universal,

24:13

which is basically owns everything everybody loves.

24:16

So what they're doing just to like clear their bottom

24:18

line and look better is they are taking

24:21

existing shows that are available

24:23

to stream and they're erasing

24:25

them from existence. So they basically

24:27

go to their insurance company because they have insurance on all

24:29

these shows, and they say this

24:31

was a wash. They totaled the car. They say, hey,

24:34

take the whole car. We're not going to fix it.

24:36

We'll take our insurance back. So, like, you

24:38

know, I probably should say any of these numbers, but like

24:41

we made a show for Adult Swim, I

24:44

want to say our full budget for the

24:46

three seasons of it was like twenty million

24:48

something like that, and they're going to wipe

24:50

it from existence at the end of our Hulu contract.

24:53

It'll just you won't be able to watch it anywhere. Check

24:55

it on Pirate Bay. I know it's there, right.

24:57

What's it called.

24:57

It's called Dream Corp LLC,

25:00

which was this hybrid animation live action

25:02

really beautiful show. But that's

25:05

one example, and it famously happened with Batgirl.

25:07

Yeah, Bi Thata Girl's crazy.

25:09

They made an entire movie that would be like in a

25:11

large part of a franchise or whatever.

25:14

And then just wiped it and then they

25:16

get back a fraction of their budget and then

25:18

they go, look see here we go. And that's

25:20

disheartening. Like you know how many actors were in that

25:23

and writers and creak guys were like, I'm going

25:25

to be a part of this huge thing. There's definitely gonna be a Bad Girl

25:27

too.

25:28

Yeah, it's crazy and Michael, I think Michael

25:30

Keaton's in it, Like yeah, I

25:32

mean it probably wouldn't be great, but like

25:34

you know, like none of the DC movies

25:37

seemed that good to me, but it's probably like would be

25:39

fun to watch. And maybe that's I mean, maybe

25:41

that's the problem though, I mean, look at what's going on

25:43

out there, Like maybe we've got too

25:45

much Bad Girl. I mean I'm

25:47

not agreeing with I'm not agreeing with the Fat

25:50

Cats, Okay, right, I'm just saying

25:52

like, yeah, it feels I mean, I almost think like the

25:54

Barbie Oppenheimer thing is an interesting It

25:57

seems a little bit more like, well, I don't know, it's

25:59

tough, like Barbie's like based on a fucking doll, you

26:01

know, like it's based on literally like a toy.

26:02

And so I was like, well, maybe this franchise thing is kind

26:04

of over.

26:05

But but they do feel like more

26:07

like works of art then a lot of stuff that's put

26:09

out into the world these days, like a lot of these

26:11

Like it feels like Disney's not just on this, like they

26:13

just have to release more Marvel content.

26:15

It just feels like Marvel content or redo any

26:17

animated film, live action.

26:19

Yeah, I mean that stuff is that stuff is so bizarre

26:21

to me. Yeah, yeah, it's weird.

26:23

So I want to talk about Rick and Morty for a second. I

26:25

have a couple of thoughts. How

26:29

long and how long have you been working on the show?

26:30

Not from the beginning, not from the beginning.

26:32

I came in like halfway through season four

26:35

basically, okay, okay, and we're season

26:38

six aired most recently, and

26:40

sevens is going to come out eventually.

26:42

So so Rick and Morty is an interesting show in

26:44

that when I started watching it, I

26:47

was like, you know, crying, laughing,

26:49

like I thought it was like one of the funniest things I'd

26:51

ever seen, and I'm like, this is so

26:53

fucking weird, Like it's a weird, weird show,

26:56

and it only got I feel like, especially

26:58

in the first you know, several of

27:00

it. I don't think I've watched the last season, but I've watched

27:02

everything up until that certainly got

27:04

progressively more weird and obscure

27:07

and sort of whatever. But here's the thing that I find

27:10

I'm gonna try to say this in a way that doesn't sound insulting,

27:12

because I don't want I don't

27:14

want to insult. I don't want to sell you or anybody who's

27:16

worked on it. Okay, Like, I think

27:18

it's really smart and really funny. I think,

27:20

you know, I think it crosses some lines that for a

27:22

lot of people are probably like they don't feel

27:24

comfortable where how those lines are crossed.

27:27

But that's like neither here nor there.

27:28

The thing that I find somewhat troubling

27:31

about it is like I feel

27:33

like it became very popular with people. I

27:37

feel like they like it for reasons

27:39

that are different than the ones I like it for.

27:41

Yes, do you understand what I'm saying?

27:43

And like, yeah, I do. There's a vocal minority

27:45

fan base that's kind of in selly guys.

27:48

Yeah, well because the you know, the protagonist

27:50

Rick is this like nothing matters, get fucked

27:53

up, have sex with everything, love

27:55

isn't real. Like there's like an angry

27:57

teenager in that character that

28:00

people relate to.

28:01

Right, But it's sort of like a Rorshack,

28:03

you know, from Watchmen, Like actually there's a

28:05

meme that's like Roshack is my favorite superhero

28:08

but like, yeah, you.

28:09

Know Roshack in the Watchman.

28:11

I don't know how familiar are with Watchmen, but you

28:13

know, right, so you know, he's a really

28:15

fucked up character, like

28:17

really fucked up, and like all of the all

28:20

the all the superheroes, it's like kind of like identifying

28:22

with like the you know, like oh, like the

28:24

comedian, he's awesome, Like identifying with a character

28:27

that's obviously super fucked up and flawed, right,

28:29

And it's I think like there's a difference between like laughing

28:32

alongsider or experiencing

28:34

that person's story versus like.

28:37

Being like I identify.

28:39

Is that what it is is like people these like guys

28:41

identifying with like

28:44

like Rick, is that I think

28:46

so?

28:46

I mean I think so. I think it's

28:48

like enabling you in a way, it's like, oh cool,

28:50

I also hate everything and I'm pissed

28:53

with my life, so right, like I'm

28:55

going to get behind this guy. And

28:57

you know, like there was a lot of pushback,

29:00

like the first, you know, any show,

29:02

it had a small writer's room at the beginning, and then like

29:04

as it grew, they got a larger writer's room

29:06

and they hired you know, a more diverse

29:08

writer's room. And then the super like reddit

29:11

fans were like, oh, they ruined

29:13

it because a girl wrote this episode.

29:15

And of course, I mean they're right, girl

29:17

wrote Pickle Rick, stupid asshole,

29:20

Like no, no, no, the girl.

29:21

If a girl writes an episode, it's automatically

29:24

bad content.

29:25

Yeah, I mean no, Yeah.

29:26

It's like it's like it's sort of in a way like it kind

29:29

of I don't say ruined the show for me, but

29:31

there is an element where like I'm

29:33

almost like, I don't it's like almost embarrassing

29:35

to say you like it.

29:36

I'm sorry again, I don't want to.

29:37

It's a fucking great show and it's really

29:39

smart and funny. I just want to be clear, like I think it's

29:42

like really one.

29:43

Of the most unique shows.

29:44

It's ever been made, and yet the

29:46

fandom of it has like

29:48

can.

29:48

Be a turnoff.

29:50

Yeah, It's created this weird sort of tension

29:52

even within me. I'm not saying like I

29:54

can't be true to what I love or whatever, but there's

29:56

like a yeah, I mean is there I mean,

29:58

does that ever? How much does that come up like when you're

30:01

working on it, Like, I'm curious because it

30:03

feels to me like it

30:06

would create a lot of self consciousness or

30:08

maybe more self consciousness about like the kinds

30:10

of jokes you put in or the way you write certain

30:12

characters. I'm just curious, like, is that

30:14

ever a topic?

30:15

Yeah? I think you know, everybody who writes

30:17

on the show that I've worked with for now for plus

30:20

seasons is like the funniest,

30:22

smartest people. Everybody is. Everybody

30:25

is on the right side of history, and

30:28

it's it's certainly a consideration,

30:31

you know. It's like, we want to be true to the show, we want to

30:33

be true to the roots. It was a like, stick this

30:36

big seed up your ass, Morty, and I'm going to

30:38

mistreat I'm going to treat my grandson really

30:40

badly because I want to get laid by an alien. Like

30:42

it's all problematic behavior. So you want to like

30:45

recognize, like, hey, this is not this is a flawed

30:47

character, and this person needs to grow. And

30:49

we can't just start a new season where he

30:51

is now a feminist and now you

30:54

know it is is you

30:56

can't like completely transform a character, but you can

30:58

also what we get to do is that these characters grow

31:00

and we get to explore the other characters that and

31:02

and these are the storylines that are more

31:05

interesting to me, more interesting to the people

31:07

in the room. And and I don't know, the

31:09

fan base is catching on and and and the

31:12

last few seasons have been great, and yeah,

31:14

it's a consideration to some extent, but like it's

31:16

also it's it's just the people who are the loudest

31:18

online and so.

31:19

Right, they always just trying to suck up everything for everything.

31:22

Yeah, so for they get For every

31:24

one guy who's like, oh, I want to

31:26

be like a Rick because he treats women badly,

31:29

there's like thirty people who were like, oh,

31:31

I think it's a fun, smart show that talks about you

31:33

know, that's really a family sitcom at his

31:35

heart, and.

31:37

That I mean, yeah, yeah, yes, it has

31:39

the dynamic of a family sitcom with nothing

31:42

that would ever work for a

31:44

family, say coom in a way.

31:45

And then when I first watched it too the same

31:47

I was like, I don't know you could do this on TV, like

31:50

this is fun, Like okay.

32:03

Like I just want to be clear, like I love the show,

32:05

and I think one of the things that I was always

32:08

sort of I'm surprised by, and I can't remember

32:10

what season, maybe it was even in the first season,

32:13

like the arc of the season and

32:15

the way they have at least

32:17

several seasons ended is like quite emotional,

32:20

like quite like dramatic in a way that

32:23

catches you off guard. And I think it's very rare for

32:25

a show that can be as it's

32:27

you know, it's sort of in the sphere of like a bo Jack Horseman,

32:30

Like there's a cerebralness to it that like

32:32

is sometimes expressed like purely

32:34

in like the comedic, but like often

32:37

ends up being like pretty dramatic. And I think, you

32:39

know, it's it's it's unique

32:42

in that sense, and it's like a really

32:44

interesting and hilarious.

32:46

Work of art.

32:47

I just I wanted to ask about it because

32:49

it's something that like I feel like I

32:51

think fandom in general is really

32:53

is really tricky lately, and I

32:55

think that, like, yeah,

32:57

it almost goes back going back to the let

33:00

Zeppelin Lord of.

33:01

The Rigs thing, like it looks like good

33:03

health.

33:03

Yeah, you know, like that

33:06

was a time when, yeah, it to be into things

33:08

that were nerdy was

33:11

considered very uncool and it was very unpopular.

33:14

And not to say that every nerd was awesome or

33:16

whatever, but I think that it meant that those people,

33:19

I think, found each other in a way that created

33:21

real communities that were like communities about

33:23

people sharing things they love together. And it feels

33:26

like modern fandom

33:28

is like almost this like weaponized mutation

33:31

of that, where it's like we are a

33:33

community not banding together to

33:35

share in our love of something, but banding

33:37

together to like destroy anybody

33:40

who doesn't share in our love of this thing, which

33:42

is like your point about

33:44

like the episode being written by a woman and they're all

33:46

like fucking pissed about it or whatever. The idea

33:48

that being a fan of something could

33:51

become so vitriolic and hateful

33:54

just seems like a total perversion

33:56

of the concept.

33:57

Yeah, exactly. Well, I mean

34:00

the classic like Rick and Morty superfan

34:02

is like, oh, like, oh I

34:04

love Rick and Morty and someone's like, oh, I love Rick and Morty too,

34:06

and then that super fans like no, but you don't get it,

34:08

like I get it, like that it's a competition

34:11

and who loves it the most, who really understands

34:13

it, Like it's too deep for you? Yeah, yeah,

34:15

I don't know. I don't know where that comes from. You

34:18

know, it's a sign of our society. I guess that

34:20

people are desperately trying to find something that's

34:22

theirs, that they could be a part of. Like

34:25

I don't know why we're not getting that in our interact.

34:27

You know, we've we've messed up somewhere that

34:29

that people's whole identity becomes Captain

34:31

America, you know, I.

34:33

Look the whole thing.

34:34

And maybe Rick and Morty is a contributor to this, although I would

34:36

say on the higher end, like I think we've all been

34:38

like pretty heavily infantilized, like as

34:40

adults, Like I think we've all like the

34:42

Star Wars should go, Like Star Wars doesn't need

34:44

to continue into like doesn't need to be a part of your

34:46

life forever, Like it's possible that it could be

34:48

a thing that you love as like a teenager or as a kid

34:51

or whatever, and then like you move on to

34:53

other two other forms of like

34:55

entertainment.

34:56

Or you know, you know rich

34:58

polassical music.

35:00

Yeah, I know, I don't fucking know, but like these

35:03

are something beyond Star Wars. Like what if

35:05

you never get out of Star Wars, but if you're stuck

35:07

in the loop and you're like now you're seeing solo

35:09

and you're like, well it's not that good, but like at least

35:11

I'm getting more Star Wars. You know, you

35:13

get stuck at these like tracks of like, Okay,

35:15

now this is a thing, and can't

35:17

they just be like and you're not gonna they're not making

35:20

Oppenheimer two, you know, like

35:22

right, it's just not saying you know, I haven't

35:24

seen it yet, so maybe it's maybe it's not that good.

35:26

But now they do set up a sequel at the end. Yeah,

35:30

there's a post credits scene where uh

35:33

Nick Nick Frost, I don't

35:35

know who's the guy where the agents

35:37

and the fielder. Nick Fury comes over

35:39

and like puts his hand on Oppenheimer's

35:42

shoulder and he's like, we're very interested in the work you've

35:44

done.

35:44

Oh my god, fucking I'm

35:47

sorry, but I wish that Christopher Nolan had

35:49

been could could

35:51

not take himself too seriously to have done

35:53

that, because it would be the greatest

35:56

fucking thing that ever happened in film

35:58

history. Like, I think you did a three

36:00

hour movie about the creation of the atomic bomb

36:02

that was super fucking serious, and then you had

36:04

a post credits scene that like linked it to

36:06

the Marvel universe.

36:08

I mean, amazing, God, we need

36:11

to make that scene.

36:11

Like they should hire the actors

36:14

just to film that scene.

36:15

Oh absolutely. I mean I think every

36:18

movie, and the

36:20

far they're detached from the Marvel Universe, the better,

36:23

should end with Nick Fury coming in and

36:25

saying, we want

36:27

you to work for Shield.

36:28

I mean, it would have been just ultimate fucking

36:30

synergy with Barbie and Oppenheimer's

36:33

if they had come up with a post credit scene

36:35

that somehow linked those universes together,

36:37

Like if.

36:38

Nick Fury had maybe shown up in both movies.

36:42

I want to introduce you to Yeah, exactly,

36:45

exactly.

36:46

Oh fuck god, oh man, this is now

36:49

I'm understanding why you're into these creative

36:51

fields. You've got great ideas,

36:54

I mean, really good, Sead.

36:56

Just throw Fury and that's my pitch in the room. All

36:58

the time.

36:59

Yeah, so you were you wrote for SNL

37:01

for a little while, is that correct?

37:03

Yeah? I did one season on SNL.

37:05

One season.

37:05

Let's talk about But tell me about the horrific situation

37:08

that led to your dismissal at SNL.

37:10

Can we talk about this?

37:11

So I wish I wish it was exciting.

37:14

Would you do to Lauren?

37:15

I didn't. I didn't do anything. Maybe

37:17

I didn't drink the koolid enough, but I wish it was

37:19

more exciting. It like, it

37:21

was very it was unceremonial.

37:23

I just my contract wasn't renewed and

37:26

I found out like over the summer. It was like, yeah,

37:28

you're not going back. And then they sent me. They

37:31

sent me a giant box that had everything

37:33

that was in my office.

37:34

Oh that's sufficient. It's nice that you guys

37:36

they take the summer off to fire people.

37:38

They're like yeah, yeah.

37:39

Lauren was like, you know what I like to do is if everybody leaves

37:41

and then we can just pick who we don't like and send them

37:43

their shit.

37:44

That's smart.

37:44

Hey, then we talked shit about them behind their back.

37:47

I mean most businesses, you have to do it like

37:49

you have to bring the person into like an HR

37:52

conversation and then they like somebody escorts

37:54

them out of the building like this is it's way

37:56

cleaning to do it that way?

37:57

Yeah, you just doesn't bother What do you think?

38:00

What is it? Like?

38:00

You didn't have like a you didn't come up with like a character

38:03

or something like somebody with a catchphrase like what is

38:05

what do you think?

38:06

Like you Knowteria is?

38:07

It's been so far from

38:10

it. I mean I didn't

38:12

get a lot of stuff on the show.

38:14

I don't know if the show really is my

38:16

bag of humor, so my

38:18

strengths I don't think really played to the

38:21

show's strengths.

38:22

Like it's to mainstream too. Yeah,

38:24

it's a little juvenile.

38:26

I probably I don't think I could talk about this well maybe.

38:28

I mean these are my words.

38:29

You're not here?

38:30

What are they gona they're gonna rehire you?

38:32

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, they

38:34

probably won't invite me to the fiftieth anniversary party,

38:37

which you know you want.

38:38

To go out. That's gonna be sick.

38:39

Yeah, I'm sure back to both Manning

38:41

brothers at the fortieth anniversary party.

38:44

Uh okay, it took me a second because I'm

38:46

not a sports guy. You're talking about there, but.

38:48

Peyton Manning is one, and then

38:51

I want to.

38:51

Say, oh, you lie, I was gonna say like I was

38:53

gonna say, like Chuck Manning. I

38:57

wrote on the fortieth season. So it was a big year.

38:59

Yeah, And then they had a big giant anniversary

39:02

show where like Steve Martin, Bill Murray everybody came back

39:05

and they like that week. They were like, hey,

39:07

you guys are new writers, so you don't have to come

39:09

in at all this week. And it was like, oh that sucks,

39:12

Like okay, well thanks. They're like the

39:14

best, best in the bridest, not you guys,

39:17

not you guys. We're going to do like more King

39:19

Touch stuff and like Samurai Samurai

39:22

dry Cleaner.

39:23

They bring back like old like old school like

39:25

writers.

39:26

It was like the best of you know. It was fun, I mean.

39:28

And but we did get to go to this huge

39:31

gala that had everybody who's ever been on the show

39:34

and he was live band Taylor Swift

39:36

was there. I just say Taylor so because she's kind

39:38

of important right now. She was very nice.

39:40

I hear she's great. I've heard she's nothing.

39:42

Nice, lovely. I was like, I

39:44

lied, and I was like my girlfriend's a huge

39:46

fan. Could I get a selfie with you? And

39:48

she took us so she was like really nice. She took us stelfie

39:51

and it was like kind of the lighting was kind of off and I was like,

39:53

oh, this is like kind of bad. Do you mind if and

39:55

she was like, oh no, you could fix it. Took my phone,

39:57

went into the photo app, started adjusting level,

40:00

increased the brand. You could have taken ten

40:02

more selfies, but she just like taught me how

40:04

to make a koto.

40:05

That's I mean, they say she goes above and beyond.

40:08

That really is something.

40:09

Yeah, I mean she

40:11

she's a talent and she's like running the entire US

40:13

economy right now. But so

40:16

also that night, I all

40:18

the writers and other and people who

40:20

work on the show were like, well, we got to get drugs

40:23

right right, I can talk about drugs on the show.

40:24

Yes, please do actually encourage it.

40:27

So I was in a rented tuxedo and I

40:29

put in an order with a drug

40:31

dealer.

40:32

My guy was named Rick when I lived

40:34

in Brooklyn.

40:34

Oh yeah, well say his full name, say his full

40:37

name.

40:37

I never got

40:39

a full name. It's just Rick, just Rick

40:41

Rick in my phone, Rick in person. I don't

40:43

remember what Rick looked like, but he would show up.

40:46

He'd show up when he needs to do.

40:48

Yeah, I mean, anyhow, so you put an order in, put

40:50

an order in, collect a bunch of cash from everybody. The

40:52

party was at some huge venue on like Fifth

40:54

Avenue in Manhattan, and there's like

40:56

this very famous intersection that's like probably

40:58

Fifth in Park or something. So it's this huge

41:00

there's like six lanes from every side, this

41:03

huge intersection. Uh,

41:05

I run. I come out of the venue. I

41:07

got all the cash and gripping into my

41:09

hand, and the guy was like kitty corner

41:12

across and all the lights were red. It was

41:14

like you can cross any direction. It's very

41:16

cold in wintery and windy, and so

41:18

I see his car and I just start sprinting

41:20

across the street. But as I'm running, like

41:22

my tuxedo jacket catches

41:25

on my hand and the money and

41:27

it just explodes, Like three hundred

41:29

dollars in twenties just explode

41:32

in the middle of Fifth Avenue in Manhattan, just and

41:34

it's windy, is blowing everywhere. So I'm in a tuxedo.

41:36

It's like a snatching, like I'm in a cash

41:38

cage.

41:39

Yeah, but it's the

41:41

streets of New York City, the cash caages,

41:43

You're all reality? Was

41:46

that rock bottom for you? Does that when you felt

41:48

like you knew you had a problem?

41:50

Or I think it probably tickled me

41:52

so much that I was like, I'm

41:54

never changing this life.

41:55

Did you wait?

41:56

Did you get the cash? And did you get Ye got

41:58

the cash? I got the drug and then you

42:00

know, we continue to continue

42:02

dancing black?

42:03

Did Taylor Swift?

42:06

No? No, I don't you know. No, you're

42:09

not sure it makes that. But part of the reason

42:11

I thought that that I thought all the old timers

42:13

would be like, hey, we're back in thirty rockings. Time

42:15

to like rid the rails again. It's been a while,

42:17

So I thought like I'd be in like a bathroom stall with

42:20

Bill Murray and like Gilda Radner.

42:22

I guess she probably wasn't a love friend.

42:24

Yeah, in heaven at

42:26

the bathroom stalling.

42:28

Heaven's kind of ruined our career, this,

42:30

this podcast, our career are a joint

42:32

career.

42:32

No, I don't think so. So.

42:34

So you're working on there's a new season Rick and Morty coming.

42:36

You're executive producer.

42:38

That's very cool, Like, yeah, it's cool.

42:40

Is that like if I'm if I'm close enough friends with you,

42:42

I could like voice a character on Rick and Morty,

42:44

Like you can get me in there.

42:45

Like I'm not saying me, but if I were friends

42:47

with you, Like.

42:48

Yeah, probably I've gotten my friend's voices

42:51

voice jobs on the show for sure.

42:53

Yeah.

42:53

Kind of my favorite thing is to get my friend's work.

42:55

Have you thought about having like a guy who's like a kind

42:57

of a Jewish like podcast, or guy who's

43:01

from Pittsburgh like that as a character. It could

43:03

be kind of an interesting Yeah, you don't

43:06

have a lot of characters like that on Rick and Morton.

43:07

Don't we don't We had an episode had

43:09

a podcast in it, so that ship

43:11

may have sailed well, you know,

43:14

I'm just not saying me. It's a person

43:16

like that. You're casting a you're casting

43:19

a wide net.

43:19

Though with Jewish podcasters, it's

43:21

like every podcaster,

43:24

every second podcaster is yeah,

43:27

can you get Nick Fury in there? Like what happens if

43:29

you want to do a Nick Fury thing on Rick and Morty?

43:31

What happened to.

43:32

Positive Nick Fury has been on this show?

43:34

Really? Sure?

43:35

I think so? It sounds like

43:37

we always kind of poop on Marvel on this show. I imagine

43:40

he's been on there.

43:41

It sounds correct to me.

43:42

But I mean I was just thinking about your post credits

43:44

concept and maybe there's a way to make that.

43:46

I mean, with animation, anything's possible.

43:48

Yeah, I mean there's like a there's like a fake

43:51

Avengers on the show called Vindicators,

43:53

and they did a spinoff show which was very good. So

43:56

like our Marvel universe is it, but we reference

43:58

Marvel a lot. Yeah, but

44:00

like you know, Morty's a big fan of the Vindicators

44:02

and that's basically Marvel. Yeah,

44:05

I'll get theory in there. I would rather get Oppenheimer,

44:07

and I think he probably has a better chance of making it in

44:09

I.

44:09

Don't know why there's I mean the scene

44:12

you described, there's no reason why that couldn't be

44:14

put into the show wholesale.

44:15

Like I think that's.

44:16

I think it could deserly be a tag of it, which

44:18

is also a post credit scene of Rick. Could

44:21

definitely be an apropos of nothing.

44:24

Nothing get whatever.

44:25

The final scene of Oppenheimer is cut

44:27

to the crew or whatever, I guess wouldn't be the final scene.

44:29

It's just as you described it, just like he's

44:32

sitting at a table, pondering what he's done.

44:34

I guess I assume it ends with him.

44:36

He's probably wrapping a he's wrapping

44:38

like a belt over a ceiling fan, and he's

44:40

setting up a little like a home depot bucket

44:42

that he's standing on. Right, did he kill him

44:44

in a knock at the door? No, but it's

44:46

the scene he is.

44:48

Yeah, that sakes you know, yeah, yeah,

44:50

yeah, and yeah, right, there's a knock

44:52

at the door. It opens,

44:55

damn it. He's like put that rope down

44:58

or whatever he's using.

44:59

I guess don't know, but that like, back around your

45:01

trousers, mister Oppenheimer.

45:03

Right, we've got a job, got somewhere to be. Well,

45:06

I'll listen. I think I would love to see it happen.

45:08

I mean, now that you've said it, now that you've brought

45:10

it into my sort of imagination,

45:13

I'll be bummed if it doesn't happen.

45:15

Yeah, it would, I mean, you know what,

45:17

maybe God see. But also, here's other thing.

45:19

Now that we're talking about it, it's like, well, now we can't do it.

45:21

You can't do it because it's out there.

45:22

We have to cut this out of the show completely, and then it'd

45:25

be I mean, I'm willing to do that if you actually can deliver

45:27

on it.

45:27

I mean, if you could commit to me that you'll

45:30

get the.

45:32

But also, we move pretty slow. You know,

45:34

we're not South Park.

45:35

Yeah, by the time that's fucking airs Oppenheimer's

45:38

in the old News. Yeah, you got to

45:40

have a way to get for it to be relevant. Like

45:42

with uh, it's going to be.

45:43

Exactly, we just don't move that fast. We're

45:46

not that live. I

45:58

mean, i'd like a nice topical thing,

46:00

but I also really like an evergreen like this exists

46:03

in its own world and isn't.

46:05

It's to do.

46:05

I feel like it's have to do ambitious animation on

46:08

a fast turnaround. I mean,

46:10

I guess AI I'll fix that right soon. Yeah,

46:12

he'll just tell the AI what you want and

46:14

it'll spit it out. But

46:16

yeah, the CEOs will just put

46:18

in what they want in the AI and then it'll

46:21

just spit it out and they won't need

46:23

anybody anymore.

46:24

I mean, I think I think it'll even be more than

46:26

that, Josh, you will put in I

46:28

want an episode of Rick and Morty where they meet Oppenheimer

46:31

and Nick Fury, And also I'm in it

46:33

and I'm a podcast host, yeah, and I'm

46:35

the one who introduces them. And then you'll type

46:37

that prompt into a laptop and it'll

46:39

just spit out your own episode of Rick and Morty.

46:41

I think that's where it's going. That sounds like

46:43

it sucks so bad. I can't even describe

46:46

how shitty that sounds. We actually had

46:48

we ran, we ran the.

46:49

Episode last I think last week of we had

46:51

the CEO of Scott David Hols, who's

46:54

the CEO of mid Journey, which is the art

46:56

one of the art ais, and uh,

46:59

we definitely that we touched on that a little bit.

47:01

But like I talked to the film critic David

47:03

Denby, who I don't know if he still writes

47:05

to The New Yorker, but I interviewed him many many

47:07

years ago, and he described

47:10

like we were talking about interactive cinema,

47:12

and he was like, I kind of want

47:15

movies to like dominate me. I

47:17

want it to be like in control basically

47:19

of like my sort of emotions or whatever. And

47:21

I think, like, I mean, maybe I'm

47:23

going to go back in five years and I'm gonna

47:25

eat crow or whatever.

47:26

The fuck.

47:27

I just don't believe that people actually

47:29

will enjoy things that they think they want.

47:31

I think I think a lot of people

47:34

enjoy things because they aren't what they expected.

47:36

And I think that being able

47:39

to tell a machine, no matter how clever, it

47:41

can be like the things you want to have happen, and then

47:43

have them happen. It's like you kind of can't tickle yourself,

47:45

you know. I think it's a little bit

47:47

of that, And I think we're going to learn pretty quickly

47:49

that after the kind

47:52

of excitement of what it can do wears

47:54

off, there's a lot that there's a lot

47:56

of there's a big gulf between your

47:59

desire and what a machine can produce

48:01

for you.

48:02

Yeah, I can see that. I agree. I

48:04

think it'll be like, look, it's the first AI completed

48:07

movie, and we're all like, I probably won't

48:09

see it, but people will be excited

48:11

about it. But the pendulum will swing that way for a minute,

48:13

and then it'll come back to like I kind of liked it when

48:15

weirdos just were allowed to make art that we

48:17

got to experience.

48:19

Yeah, I think, I don't know. I mean, maybe they'll be amazing.

48:21

Maybe maybe the AI will come up with with

48:23

like much more clever ideas and they'll be much funnier

48:26

than than we think. And I don't

48:28

know, I mean, anything's possible, but I'm

48:30

sort of like I expect that there'll be a lot of people's jobs

48:32

who get screwed over in the process.

48:34

But yeah, I think you know, corporations

48:36

are going to let it trickle down.

48:38

Yeah, that's probably true.

48:39

I mean because like it's probably easier to do a

48:41

full AI podcast because

48:43

you don't have to worry about visuals, So like, is

48:45

that make you nervous? I know, this is kind of your big.

48:48

No any maker, not my main gig.

48:49

No no, because there are

48:51

already you don't need AI. You already have the

48:54

entirety of humanity producing garbage

48:56

podcasts like you don't. And I mean, I

48:58

say, this is like I may be a part of that. Like

49:00

I'm not trying to tell you know, don't stoot my own

49:02

horn or anything. There's already a This

49:04

is sort of like the content thing that's like we

49:06

already have too much. Like it's not the

49:08

problem is not quantity, right, The

49:11

problem actually is quality. I think that is

49:13

and I think increasingly one of the reasons why

49:15

the streamers have suffered is

49:18

they have like tried to create a

49:21

quantity sort of their their equation

49:23

is quantity, and what is lacking

49:25

there is the quality. And eventually people

49:27

catch on and they're like, wow, I have a mount of things

49:29

to see, but nothing I want to watch.

49:32

And like, I think that's the same thing is

49:34

happening just across the board. I think it's

49:36

like I think that's to some

49:38

extent, has happened in music. I think,

49:41

I mean, what that what it looks like, you know, on

49:43

the back end of it.

49:44

I have no fucking idea.

49:46

I think it's happening in like in my world,

49:48

like in news and media stuff, like I think people

49:50

are have been exhausted

49:52

by like social media and like

49:54

clickbait, and I think everybody's kind of like

49:56

fatigued with this, like just

49:59

the wanity of shit and you're kind of like, god,

50:01

I'd love just one good thing.

50:03

It feels real, And I think that's why people get

50:05

behind like oh white lotus. It's like,

50:07

Okay, this is good, it's all

50:09

I watch it collectively, this is nice.

50:12

Well we watched it, but then like ninety

50:14

nine percent of other people didn't. I mean that's the thing.

50:16

It's like there's stuff that you you and I probably

50:18

think being in our respective industries.

50:21

It's like, what is popular? You know it's popular?

50:23

Is Yellowstone? Do you watch Yellowstone?

50:25

I haven't, and somebody's like it's been on right thirty years.

50:27

I've never massively popular. I mean it's

50:29

like the most popular show. You've never seen an episode

50:31

of it, and yet you've probably watched every episode of Succession

50:33

and he thought it was amazing exactly, and you know

50:35

it, no one else has watched it, Like one

50:37

million people have watched Succession in the world.

50:40

Yeah, you know, we think it's important.

50:42

We're coastal elites. You know we

50:44

are exactly.

50:46

It's a show made by coastal

50:48

elites about coastal elites for coastal

50:50

elites.

50:50

And it worn't perfectly but I.

50:52

Think but you know, listen, it's very

50:54

rare that anything is super fucking good and popular.

50:56

Like there's only a few There's a Beyonce

50:58

and the and Beatle, the Beatles, and like

51:01

there.

51:01

All be everything?

51:02

Is that everything? Like a

51:04

B movie?

51:05

Yeah, well that's another thing.

51:08

But you know, like, right, I think I think the film

51:10

Life Force is high art, but to most

51:12

people, most people don't even know it.

51:14

I don't even know what you're talking about you don't even know it?

51:16

Okay, Can I make a recommendation?

51:18

And I would like if you can get everybody

51:20

who's associated with Brick and Morty to participate,

51:22

Yeah, if they If everybody who's

51:24

working on that has not seen the film Life Force.

51:27

It is directed by Toby Hooper. It's based

51:29

on a novel called The Space Vampires. It

51:32

is written by Dan O'Bannon, who's the guy who

51:34

created Alien, and it is one

51:36

of the most insane and

51:39

amazing films ever produced. And oh

51:41

in the I believe, I believe the soundtrack

51:44

is by Henry Mancini, So it's

51:46

like, got a crazy soundtrack like on. It

51:48

is first off in my

51:51

top five favorite movies of all

51:53

time. But it's also like I

51:55

guarantee you it's unlike any film you've ever seen

51:57

in your entire life. And if you're not, if

52:00

you don't walk away feeling like

52:03

thrilled by it, I'll be very surprised.

52:04

I will watch it, but immediately and I bet

52:07

you, I bet you people in the room

52:09

have seen this movie.

52:10

I know I was gonna say, it's the

52:12

kind of film that I would expect that people who are writing for Rick

52:14

and Morty are pretty familiar with. It's a pretty obscure

52:16

even amongst like sci fi weirdos.

52:19

It's a seemingly kind of weirdly obscure

52:21

thing. Sorry, I don't I just want to bring it

52:24

up whenever possible because I think it's such a gem

52:26

of a film.

52:26

Well, I want to ask you a question because you were talking about

52:29

like podcasts and how there's a lot of podcasts.

52:31

So I guess what I wanted to ask was, I

52:33

guess what, what do you think is the worst podcast

52:36

out there?

52:37

Well, that's I mean, I haven't heard it. I mean the worst

52:39

podcast is as you haven't heard it, but like

52:42

you know, I don't know, Like.

52:43

Uh, well, you don't

52:45

have to answer this. I'm trying to put this.

52:47

I find like celebrities of the podcast be really annoying

52:49

because it's like fuck you, like you already have your

52:51

Like Dax Shepherd, it's

52:53

so fucked up that Dak I have to compete, that

52:55

we have to lowly ugly people

52:58

like me have to compete with Dax sheperd Like, I'm

53:00

sure he's a great guy by the way his podcast, No, he seems

53:02

great and he's a wonderful he's wonderful and I'd love to have him

53:04

on. In fact, let's let's see if

53:06

we can get him on. I'd love to interview him

53:09

about his podcast. And you know, he seems lovely

53:11

and he's in Kristen Bell seems great and he

53:13

just seems like a great guy. But like Paul Rudd

53:15

or something, has a fucking pot. I just feel like, I don't know, like

53:18

Jason Bateman's podcast.

53:19

A popular podcast and it's

53:22

like a movie stars, right, I just think

53:24

it's fucked up, like let us have let ugly

53:26

people have something, you know, Like I think we don't

53:28

get much these days, you know, like I understand

53:30

that everyone's more accepting, but it's

53:32

not right.

53:33

But worst podcast, I mean, that's a that's a tough

53:35

one because it was probably like the Ben Shapiro

53:38

Show or something.

53:38

Like, you know, like damaging

53:41

our culture and sins.

53:42

Yeah, I mean, if you look at the top one hundred,

53:44

there's all kinds of shit, like, you know, I don't

53:46

know, it's like, you know, it's like the Chuck

53:49

Bentley Show or something. You're like, who's Chuck Bentley. He's

53:51

like, oh, he's a firebrand, maga

53:53

preacher or whatever. And his his he has

53:55

like twenty million subscribers to his

53:57

podcast. Like

54:00

Chuck Bentley's not a person as far as I know,

54:02

but like it's that sort of right, that

54:04

idea.

54:05

Yeah, there's something for everybody out there.

54:07

Man, I don't listen to a lot of podcasts.

54:09

I'd be honest with you, like.

54:10

Yeah, that's fair. What do you think takes the most time

54:13

of your day? What do you what do you do?

54:16

It's been doing?

54:16

No, it's it's it's like, probably have a little

54:18

problem solving things like that, right, you know. I used

54:21

to do a lot of like actual writing, but it's I find

54:23

it to be very annoying. I'm not a person who

54:25

enjoys the time it takes to write down words.

54:27

Yeah, it's it. I mean, you're just banging in your head

54:29

against a brick wall the hole. It's miserable. It's you're

54:32

a loane, You're lost in your thoughts, you

54:34

hate everything. It's miserable and

54:36

magical at the same time. I do think I should maybe

54:38

this goal. I don't have a goal this year to be published

54:40

in New Yorker. I always thought that would be fun.

54:42

Oh you could do that online or in

54:44

this actual magazinete.

54:46

I mean I'd like to have a physical copy, but I take

54:48

what I can.

54:48

Get online is definitely easier. I mean you could

54:50

start with online and see if they like

54:52

it. We'll graduated into I feel like you could definitely

54:54

get something published.

54:55

I don't what did the how do you? I

54:58

know this podcast isn't about how to getublished in the n or but

55:00

like no, well, but can

55:02

it be for the last part.

55:04

The easiest thing is that somebody

55:06

like me, like introduces to somebody there who

55:09

I know, and I go like, oh, hey, this guy

55:11

Nicky's super smart. He's one of the producers

55:13

on Rick Morty. He wrote this really funny thing or

55:15

whatever. Should check it out. I mean, you know, it's

55:17

all about nepotism, and you know who you know and

55:19

who you know they have, They take submissions, they publish like

55:21

they actually publish thoseubmissions all the time. And in fact,

55:23

the New Yorker, in their defense, I should say, has

55:26

really has made a practice in their entire

55:28

history of like publishing unknown not

55:31

that you're unknown, like you're you're certainly known.

55:33

No, I want special treatment.

55:34

You must have twenty people who know somebody

55:37

there, like for.

55:38

Yuh, I'm sure there's avenues

55:40

that I should explore. Also, here's the thing I'm never

55:42

going to pursue this past this conversation. No,

55:45

no, I don't know.

55:46

I mean you could do like a shouts and murmurs like a

55:48

little, like.

55:48

A little It would be some silly thing, you

55:51

know.

55:51

It's like a McSweeney's light kind of thing. Yeah,

55:54

they do a lot of like less interesting than McSweeney's

55:56

comedy humor rather, yeah.

55:58

Yeah, like real humor.

56:01

I guess I should start by reading a New

56:03

Yorker once.

56:04

You should see what's in there. Yeah, it's

56:06

a comic, right, yeah.

56:07

No, I think it'd be a real twist for you is to

56:09

go and find like an unbelievable

56:12

journalistic story. Like you go to fucking

56:14

like Somalia and like report on some

56:17

incredible and like just you're like this

56:19

guy, like your whole career has been like in comedy

56:21

and writing and like give an Emmy for a fucking Rick and

56:23

Morty. But then you go and like just report

56:25

out the hardest, craziest fucking story ever.

56:28

Right, I like break the next Coney story.

56:30

Yeah yeah, and that's well Coney was fake.

56:32

I think that's turned out yeah, I think,

56:34

but but yeah, you would crack that kind

56:36

of case for the New Yorker, you know, or you write the

56:38

story. They had a story about how

56:40

I think it was a New Yorker. Maybe be in the Atlantic. There's

56:43

like a fault line there that's gonna like make Seattle

56:45

basically fall off the the country,

56:47

like you like, there's gonna be an earthquake that will send

56:50

Seattle out to sea or something, you

56:52

know, or Washington, all of Washington.

56:54

I could dig into that. I feel

56:56

like, whatever I do, if it's like hard hitting,

56:59

you knowjournalism, I end

57:01

it with Nick Fury showing

57:03

up and asking Seattle

57:06

to join the Avengers. And

57:09

then people get to the end they're like, damn it, this asshole.

57:11

He's got one idea.

57:12

I think, yeah, but it's a good one, you

57:14

know what, one idea, but it's a good one.

57:16

I wish you could have gotten to Christopher Nolan before

57:18

he finished the film to tell him this idea, just

57:21

like there is something we should If

57:23

only you had that inception device, Yeah,

57:25

you could have put him, put him under

57:27

and got him put this idea in his

57:30

head.

57:31

That's a dream.

57:33

Well, there's going to be a director's cut, so there's still time.

57:35

Somebody has to film the scene and like do a bootleg,

57:37

like an edit, get Killian Murphy

57:40

to just like just just do it, just like will

57:42

you be in the scene with anyhow?

57:44

All right, we've talked this one

57:46

to death. I think I think you know what you need to do. Once

57:49

the strike is over. Get

57:51

call Samuel Jackson, call Christopher

57:54

Nolan, Killian Murphy and make it happen.

57:56

Get a guy with a camera. Get

57:59

a camera. I don't even go through the whole production process,

58:01

but you know, people.

58:03

To do lighting and probably some prop.

58:05

Probably need a COVID compliance officer on

58:07

set.

58:08

Yeah, yeah, he probably. You

58:10

know, you have to find a locations when he has

58:12

location scout. I guess, yeah, I need permits.

58:15

I know, we know what I get.

58:18

Yeah, it's pretty straightforward. It's just

58:20

right there. Nick, this is like

58:22

I say, this is super fun, super fun.

58:24

Yeah.

58:25

I didn't.

58:25

I wasn't sure what exactly we're going to talk about.

58:27

There were definitely things I want to talk about. We hit all of those

58:29

things and then went way beyond them. We

58:31

skated through the routine and then

58:33

into something very freestyle, which I enjoyed.

58:36

It was a real pleasure to talk to you.

58:38

All right, thank you, Josh, thank you.

58:39

We're going to do this again, and uh and

58:42

enjoy the rest of your I assume you know, beautiful

58:44

Los Angeles day, hotter than hell out there.

58:54

Well, that is our show.

58:55

I mean, so much show, really, just

58:57

all of I mean, I don't even know if we need to do another

59:00

show.

59:00

At this point.

59:01

We captured I would say, every possible human

59:03

emotion on this one, and I

59:06

loved it. I gotta tell you, even the

59:08

human even when we hit the human emotions of depression

59:11

and anger, I was still smiling

59:14

through the pain. And that's really the

59:17

most you can ask foreign life, I think. So

59:20

that is our show for this week. We'll be back

59:22

next week with more what future, and as

59:24

always, I wish you and your family the

59:27

very best.