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1:55

I'd go to. You know, most word isn't

1:57

safe for me to drive a friend once.

2:00

The mean. sex point hair. You don't

2:02

think about it until you're not getting

2:04

enough. Money.

2:11

For his Eeg. This

2:29

is what it sounded like last. Week for the

2:31

New York City Police Department showed

2:33

up on Columbia University's campus to

2:35

arrest more than one hundred students.

2:41

Will students recorded on their phones.

2:43

One person after another got led

2:46

away and loaded into waiting buses.

2:49

These. Protesters and put up tents right and

2:51

for the school library and encampment. They're.

2:53

Asking Columbia to divest

2:56

from Israel. This

2:58

first effort, it lasted just a couple

3:00

a days before the and Y P

3:02

D took folks away and zip ties.

3:07

In the days since, it's become

3:09

clear that if the goal of

3:11

these arrests was to put a

3:13

stop to pro Palestinian campus organizing,

3:15

it failed spectacularly As of this

3:18

writing tensor back up on Colombia's

3:20

Me In Law and and similar

3:22

encampments have popped up all around

3:24

the country. And

3:30

and way you faculty locked arms to

3:32

protect their students. Monday night. One

3:42

hundred fifty people got arrested. Any. The

3:48

University of Michigan tense were set up in

3:50

the. Diagonal a path that runs

3:52

right through the center of campus

3:54

and at Cal Poly Humboldt students

3:57

of you occupied a school buildings.

4:00

The Mass Arrests The students at N

4:02

Y U. Mass arrests of students at

4:04

Yale. Mass arrests a student at Columbia.

4:07

Vanderbilt. Also had mass arrests.

4:09

Pleats. Aim in his mail has been

4:12

watching these protests grow and spread the

4:14

skin reminiscent of the Black Lives Matter

4:16

movement. had started somewhere police or to

4:18

clamp down and then had to spread.

4:20

And. Now it's everywhere. Along

4:23

with these protests have come

4:25

reports of some people using

4:27

anti Semitic chance video of

4:29

protesters locking arms and pushing

4:31

counter protesters out of their

4:33

space. scrolling. Passes

4:36

kind to images. It's easy

4:38

to conjure up a story of chaos.

4:41

Amen. One is know that story was

4:43

accurate. So. He called up a couple

4:45

of students he could tell him more. Editors

4:47

at a student newspaper. The. Columbia

4:50

Spectator. From. You as Jewish.

4:56

Eighty Three. When I

4:58

asked him about what they see when they go outside.

5:01

This. Post kind of suckled they they. They thought

5:03

it was so silly because to them it seemed

5:05

obvious that when they got a side did you

5:07

see people chilling? You know they said that people

5:10

with chilling on the lawns. The court that they

5:12

gave me. His

5:14

image of students place I see

5:16

each other in the series like.

5:22

Depending on and you know this stuff

5:24

a reality is that where as the

5:26

of people who lives together he together

5:29

in the Us together every single day

5:31

is a lot of areas adding people

5:33

are actually. Excited! a good

5:35

a wild split screen. he now.

5:38

And as I think it's really confusing

5:40

for people in disorienting for people to

5:43

hear because. Part. Of

5:45

the reason why we're so obsessed with

5:47

this conversation is because of the steaks

5:49

feel so high rates. Were talking about

5:51

anti semitism which is an awful formers

5:53

hates. One.

5:57

Of the editors and spoke to was

5:59

themselves jewish and the season like a

6:01

lot of the alarmism around what's happening

6:04

is been manufactured. And when

6:06

you hear that you have to think yourself like,

6:08

what else am I getting wrong? Today.

6:11

On the shell. A report from

6:14

Columbia. About what the

6:16

growing student protest movement means

6:18

and. What a dozen. I'm

6:21

Mary Harris. You're listening to what

6:23

next? Stick around. This

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episode is brought to you by progress

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8:10

Ever. Since October seventh, there's been

8:13

controversy over the War in Gaza

8:15

at Columbia University. And.

8:17

The very first days after the

8:19

attacks, there were these reports that

8:21

professors were praising the terrorists behind

8:23

the massacre. One. Scholar

8:25

reportedly said he was pro

8:27

Hamas. Another wrote that the

8:30

sight of Palestinian resistance fighters

8:32

storming Israeli checkpoints was astounding.

8:35

As he weeks later when

8:37

students began organizing protests against

8:40

Israel's military response. even says

8:42

administrators seems kinda subtle that

8:44

down. But. We should be careful

8:46

not to. Paint. An

8:48

entire movements. As. Being

8:50

one thing or the other I see

8:53

to still really important to us. You

8:55

know, want more? Trying to characterize a

8:57

protest of students with the talking here

8:59

from the students. Are. So

9:01

the students themselves will tell

9:03

you that the responding to

9:05

the merciless bombing and the

9:07

seas of innocent Palestinians or

9:09

on the ground. In

9:11

Palestine. But then the way that

9:14

the administrators responded by immediately suspending

9:16

does to stood organizations I think

9:18

was I it in the spring

9:21

Kerosene on the fire? Get it

9:23

the sooner. This is where Students

9:25

for Justice in Palestine and Jewish

9:28

Voice for Peace. It didn't necessarily

9:30

do anything to dissolve of solidarity

9:32

for Palestine and did more to

9:34

bring more attention and paint see

9:37

university administrators his opposition. To.

9:39

Their solidarity movement and a nice

9:41

i think were sinks took a

9:43

turn. Activists are. There were the

9:46

ducting trucks that came on campus.

9:48

They parked in the had these

9:50

big tv screens on the size

9:52

of the trucks are where they

9:54

put pictures and I'm. Names

9:57

of students who they

9:59

do. The anti semitic

10:01

san they were targeting students

10:03

who signed a letter that

10:06

us express solidarity with Palestinians

10:08

arm. And a

10:10

sexist attacks as far as like why as

10:13

as a some some of the language might

10:15

have been about like a resistance and I

10:17

think that might have been why that was

10:19

triggered but still that felt like a a

10:22

pretty big escalation to go and. Plaster.

10:25

This faces and names as call of students

10:27

that you may go to class with and

10:29

his label them as anti semitic felt like

10:31

a very stark thing. The do. You

10:34

know, a bunch of professors wrote in support

10:36

of the students who signed the sled are

10:38

basically said listen. They. Need to. Be.

10:40

Able to do these things to learn

10:42

how to. Operate.

10:45

In the world how to talk to each

10:47

other. they have to be able to express

10:49

themselves and they were concerned. And this is back in.

10:52

October November. They were concerned about

10:54

how the university was responding. Yeah.

10:57

It. Is very concerned. six months a. Year

11:00

as an ass to that. It seemed

11:02

to just get worse and worse for Columbia.

11:05

A H ten those protests More people would

11:07

come out that the same time it every

11:09

single protest there was a counter protests

11:11

and naturally whenever protests in kind of protests

11:14

and they get close together things heat up.

11:16

One particular flashpoints made headlines around

11:18

the country. It was when several

11:21

students who had been the protests

11:23

are reported going to the hospital

11:25

and we're experiencing shortness of breath.

11:28

Odd. Because. At the

11:30

protest earlier they had been

11:32

sprayed with of with a

11:34

mystery substance. What? Did the university

11:36

day, when that happens it to the

11:38

university several days to even acknowledge that

11:40

that was happening. And that

11:42

I think was another turning point. People.

11:45

Saw the band and people saw Under Attack is

11:47

what it was. They felt like the universe was

11:49

taking the sides of the people who were spraying

11:51

them with. That. Substance on

11:53

you know and. We're

11:57

We're We're We're talking to buy. Like stealing.

11:59

Say. On campus? what are they do?

12:01

A very important thing the talk about.

12:03

We need to contextualize that. The

12:06

students were sprayed with a chemical substance

12:08

and the university said nothing and when

12:10

they did say something. The

12:13

the statement can have put blame on

12:15

the students who protesting in the first

12:17

place. Is he like

12:19

know and like? Not the pro Israeli or

12:21

that pro Palestinian. Protesters still like they're

12:23

being taken. Seriously. At

12:25

Columbia like both feel like they're victims

12:27

of this administration. Totally. I yeah and

12:30

if is feels like right off the

12:32

bat the administration salt Lake maybe it

12:34

was possible to does put a lid

12:36

on it and to just. Stop.

12:39

The protests by pushing a button. And

12:41

a six in it became really could immediately clear

12:43

to them that that wasn't the case. Every

12:46

time they try to do something, the protests has

12:48

got larger and larger. More.

12:51

Misses. Her last week when the

12:54

Gaza Solidarity and Cameron. Was.

12:56

Set up right in the middle

12:58

of campus just as Columbia University's

13:00

President Minutiae Seek was scheduled to

13:02

testify in front of Congress. About

13:05

anti semitism. The

13:07

timing of the encampment. It just

13:09

seemed designed to seem the

13:12

University. What

13:14

was the purpose of the stated purpose

13:16

of the encampment? Like What Were the students?

13:18

They're. Asking for. The

13:22

student has specific demands. So.

13:24

The. Encampment was organized

13:26

by a new organization that sort

13:29

of sprung up in place of

13:31

of Students for Justice Or Palestine

13:33

and for Jewish Horses For Peace.

13:36

Ah, they announced their intentions. Right

13:38

off the bat they release a

13:40

manifesto I can read from a

13:42

Right Now or the Gaza Solidarity

13:45

and kept mint will remain until

13:47

Columbia University divests all finances including

13:49

the endowment from corporations that profit

13:52

from Israeli Apartheid, genocide, and occupation

13:54

of Palestine. We demand. They

13:56

ensure further accountability is complete

13:58

transparent the for all of

14:01

Colombia's financial investments. South.

14:03

Admit. I'm entertaining as like

14:06

Columbia University is very heavily invested for

14:08

instance in Air Bnb and are being

14:10

these really controversial but his youth and

14:12

go on Air Bnb and you can

14:14

get a place in the West Bank.

14:17

Yeah, in Occupied territory, it's deemed

14:19

illegal under international law. Exactly.

14:22

And so what the students are asking

14:24

for is please Do Not Be Invested

14:26

in This company That is. Funding

14:29

is. Occupied status

14:31

which is illegal. Part.

14:34

Of what was interesting to me about. The

14:36

requests of the encampment is

14:39

the main reasons you're. Asking

14:42

university to divest from companies affiliated

14:44

with Israel. Is

14:46

not new at all like

14:48

students actually voted. On

14:50

this issue way back and twenty

14:52

twenty and the majority of them

14:54

said we want the university to

14:57

divest from investments in Israel and

14:59

so to me that's really interesting

15:01

that like this has been around.

15:03

For a long time and on the

15:05

table in the universe he hasn't really

15:07

seriously considered as. Know. They haven't

15:10

done in In Rather than just consider it.

15:12

Saves. Invited yeah, My

15:15

Pd for the first time. Sixty

15:17

years onto campus. To. Remove

15:19

the protesters. What?

15:22

Is the students who spoke to. Tell

15:26

you about that moment when

15:28

the University decided. To. Let

15:30

the N Y P D on campus and. And

15:32

begin taking down the encampment last

15:35

week. So the

15:37

to students who spoke to a

15:39

million decline and pollen roto of

15:41

the vote editors at the Columbia

15:43

Daily Spectator. Muslim. Klein

15:45

told me that people were

15:48

distressed, but see weren't surprised.

15:51

Up because the police presence

15:53

has been kind of steady

15:55

on campus or around campus

15:57

rather have since October and

15:59

so. When they got a notification an

16:01

email from or the university presidents saying

16:03

that police are going to be invited

16:05

onto campus, they knew what was going

16:07

to happen next. They knew that they

16:09

were going to see pictures of students

16:12

being arrested. They knew their can since

16:14

been carried out in turn into jail.

16:16

Essentially. But one thing I think is

16:18

really important to note. Is

16:20

that even the police chief arm. And.

16:23

The Ipad. He said that these

16:25

protesters were peaceful. And

16:29

that nobody resistance and so

16:31

you have to ask the

16:33

question why these protesters constantly

16:35

being painted as being a

16:37

threat on I feel like

16:40

the introduction of the police

16:42

was perceived up by that

16:44

klein and brutal as being

16:46

the escalation being are violence

16:48

does brought the campus. Who.

16:52

Burrow back after quick break. This

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potential. Craving for very. If

18:02

you. Want to understand what is happening in

18:04

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18:06

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18:09

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18:11

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18:57

I want to really dig into that interview did

19:00

with a student journalists a Columbia because. I

19:02

feel like so much of the coverage of seen over the last

19:04

week has been. Done by and for.

19:06

People outside of the school

19:09

and. Some super curious are

19:11

people inside. What

19:14

into students? He spoke to

19:17

make of this disconnect.

19:20

Between. Disagreeing

19:23

Saxons at the university.

19:25

The people. Who

19:27

feel like. They. Are

19:29

unable to protest. And express

19:32

themselves as people who

19:34

wants justice in Gaza.

19:37

And. People. Who feel.

19:39

Under threat because of anti semitism.

19:43

What do they make of this disconnect? and

19:45

like? what's. True and at.

19:49

You. Know, I really enjoyed talking to

19:52

the students. I think the see

19:54

it was happening more clearly than

19:56

anybody else. Right now I'm more

19:58

inclined. Oh yeah, By the way,

20:01

I. Really gave me

20:03

like is really incredible. Quote.

20:05

Ah, Shoot she was talking about how of

20:07

setting it was for her to see. National.

20:10

Media written creasing. Li raised the

20:12

alarm over and over again and.

20:15

She. She told me about the announcement coming

20:17

from the Cross Center the Jewish Center on

20:19

campus. they really steam id say that there

20:22

are going to be basing of security for

20:24

Passover and the she actually got that email

20:26

while I was on the phone which are

20:28

you know gas and movie where it is

20:30

of those and sank. She read the email

20:32

out lot to me and as she was

20:35

reading it out loud she was having these

20:37

reactions. His bowling green shirt. Which

20:40

is someone out. Some

20:43

trees coverage strengths as over. The

20:45

years as hence I asked her else

20:47

I was i strike you as on

20:49

serious and she said. She

20:52

is also alarmists. It's

20:54

ridiculous. He has. It.

20:56

Aims flies a level less.

20:59

Danger. That simply is

21:01

not there. And

21:03

I think it honestly is

21:05

more distressing to Jewish students

21:08

essentially than anything else is

21:10

actually houses contenders. Did you

21:12

hear? What? Is it sends off

21:14

and alarm? Basically. It tells you

21:16

to be scared. It's sends a signal saying

21:18

that if you're going to be outside and

21:20

visibly Jewish. Or near campus you

21:22

will be attacked by a horde of

21:25

people who are blinded by the rage

21:27

Against Us people just. You. Know

21:29

then she told me that that's just not the

21:31

case and this is not the reality is. So

21:33

she thought this. Is

21:35

measured Whether it's valid or not you

21:38

know I'm It could be valid because

21:40

there are tons of people on around

21:42

campus who aren't students who are organizing

21:44

protests in reaction to the and Y

21:46

P D So force that a It'd

21:48

be conceivably rational to feel unsafe now

21:51

that there's so many non students and

21:53

you know it, just so many strangers

21:55

around. And so you would make sense

21:57

to have those kinds of feelings. with

21:59

the same. I'm This kind of message sends

22:01

out to the people who are not on

22:03

campus. People are you and I who are

22:05

watching on our phones are on our computers

22:07

A sense us the wrong message and that's

22:09

what she was concerned about. The

22:12

students you talk to are also concerned about. Instigators.

22:16

On. Campus specifically one professor

22:18

in the business school

22:21

in particular. Can

22:23

you tell me about. Who is

22:25

concerning them? The months? He. Had the

22:28

we we talk specifically about a

22:30

professor. his name is a shy

22:32

David I is on twitter. He's

22:34

amassed a huge following since our

22:36

he made himself sort of a

22:38

character and all of the the

22:40

protest movements. his feet put it

22:42

upon themselves to show about side

22:44

of some of these protests and

22:47

record students protesting and put it

22:49

online with like nefarious claimants. And.

22:51

Are and accusations you know. He's

22:54

been calling students terrorists for as

22:56

long as a. Student. Movement

22:58

has been around. Keys are

23:00

equating protesting in solidarity with

23:02

Palestinians, were being bombed as

23:05

being blatantly pro hummus and

23:07

many students feel like to

23:09

he's putting them at in

23:11

danger and last friday he

23:13

posted video students is preying

23:15

on campus and sorta since

23:18

like is shocking chilling morning

23:20

saying that look what's happening

23:22

in your country to his

23:24

followers. To. And

23:26

they were just praying. Muslim. Americans are

23:28

very familiar with that kind of language rights.

23:31

I did have a very thorough story on

23:33

a six year olds who was stabbed. To

23:37

death. Twenty six times. the

23:39

military's rated Nice because of

23:41

their Palestinian Muslim identity. Source:

23:43

Familiar with how. That.

23:45

Kind of rhetoric leads to

23:47

violence or as a million Klein

23:50

the editor. yet the editor.

23:52

Million. Klein used shy David Eyes

23:54

behavior as an example of what

23:56

the universe he was willing to

23:58

tolerate versus what it. Wasn't willing

24:00

to tolerate that The Universe: He

24:03

was comfortable with this professor doing

24:05

and calling students terrorists like that's.

24:08

That's. Right! Ah versus what they

24:10

weren't comfortable with allowing which was to

24:12

students occupying the lawn to be. Fair.

24:15

It sounds like say David eyes.

24:17

The. Winds may be shifting for him.

24:19

He tried to get onto the main

24:22

campus the other day and the seem

24:24

like his card wasn't working like the

24:26

university. It basically tried to prevent him

24:28

from getting on campus to where the

24:31

encampment. Is so that

24:33

is happening. But. I

24:35

think it's important to note this

24:37

is after many months as him

24:40

being incredibly vocal about his point

24:42

of view and incredibly anti the

24:44

student protests. Bright.

24:46

And when we should clarify they are

24:49

he he wasn't like he was is

24:51

going to work as an his card

24:53

was denied he had brought a mob

24:55

with him of are a student alarms.

24:58

For. Get to be carrying Israeli flags

25:00

and posters and his plans to go

25:02

into the center of the encampment and

25:04

city to counter protest inside those student

25:06

protests. And he asher

25:08

a police escort. So I think the

25:11

implication is clear of what could happen

25:13

if you were to bring a belligerent

25:15

counter protest, place it in the center

25:18

of protests on the lawn, and invite

25:20

police. You.

25:22

Know when it's getting ready for this interview. I

25:25

was reading The Columbia Spectator because.

25:28

I wanted to be familiar with it

25:30

when he spoke as really struck by

25:32

this one article. That ran recently that

25:34

had this story in it. From

25:37

a Jewish student said i thought. Got.

25:40

Into a lot of the problems

25:42

that are happening at Columbia right

25:44

now. The student talked about how

25:46

he'd been harassed on campus, have

25:48

been called and sing jew and

25:50

a Zionist and people and seared

25:52

at him that they were happy

25:55

he was leaving campus, he was

25:57

leaving for Passover. He clearly felt

25:59

attacked. But.

26:01

He was also really clear

26:03

that the protests on campus

26:05

warrant a problem she said

26:07

in camp in itself. Was.

26:10

Anti Semitism. They're sitting there, they're

26:12

sharing their. Thoughts And

26:15

they have a right to free speech. But

26:19

that said, I am experiencing anti

26:21

semitism on campus. I

26:24

wonder? If a student she spoke to.

26:28

Sink. The. University.

26:31

Is responding to it's happening

26:33

at Columbia. With

26:35

the kind of nuance that student

26:37

has. Year as I

26:40

saw that a bit too I thought I

26:42

was very powerful. I agree that it could

26:44

straight. Into some of the tension

26:46

here. But. What

26:48

I thought of the editors million client

26:50

and call in rural. They

26:54

thought that. The

26:56

they wish to do the administration would

26:58

do. Anything. To

27:00

take these protests seriously and actually

27:03

communicate with their students Holland Road

27:05

or or top Touch me about

27:07

Peel see Students at Columbia. And.

27:10

How. Anxious. In

27:12

Exile the inducing it is to have

27:14

and my Pt officers standing around while

27:16

they're on the way to their class.

27:18

You know? I think that's another thing

27:20

that we have to to think about

27:22

is how one side sinks getting police

27:24

on campus and physically putting their hands

27:27

on students. his safety, And

27:29

that what kind of implication that has

27:31

on students who are involved towards might

27:33

be black or brown and just wanting

27:35

to go to class to. So I

27:37

think there's a whole other conversation about

27:39

what actual a sex an impact that

27:41

there are when we're inviting and my

27:43

Pd officers have a long history of

27:45

racism, stop and frisk and all that's

27:47

onto campus to police of students. Yeah.

27:51

Yeah, I guess to the zoc that I think. Over

27:54

the past few weeks. These

27:57

protests had been framed. An accent

27:59

of mutually the way that universities can

28:02

either crackdown on anti semitism or they

28:04

can. Allow. Pro: Palestine Protests on

28:06

campus. To.

28:09

The soon as she spoke to really think those are the

28:11

only two options. And.

28:16

Know. Physicists? I think I did.

28:18

The students that I spoke to are

28:20

are incredibly smart and for then they

28:22

sing. The university has only one choice.

28:25

And it has to be more transparent

28:27

and honest with their student body. Common

28:29

Road or made a point. He said

28:31

the university nice to just turn a

28:34

statement saying whether or not they were

28:36

going to divest and if they weren't

28:38

going to divest, let the student body

28:40

know. And if you wanna take them

28:43

seriously, you have to talk about their

28:45

stance on Palestine. I mean. Blitzes.

28:47

Take a second marina. See, this is you really important. To.

28:50

Put as cells in the minds of

28:52

some these protests who are protesting on

28:54

the lawn are. Just two days ago

28:57

there was a mass graves. thousand covered

28:59

our side one of the hospitals where

29:01

the idea had been operating. They sent

29:03

three hundred bodies. The students are looking

29:06

at these pictures of bodies being pulled

29:08

out of the ground with zip ties.

29:10

Costs around the ankles and costs around.

29:13

There are the wrists. Which.

29:15

Makes it looks very strikingly to

29:17

and execution. And some of these

29:19

bodies are wearing scrubs, medical scopes

29:22

there, watching clips of people tipping

29:24

away at concrete blocks trying to

29:26

excavate. Living children who

29:28

have been trapped under the rubble

29:30

for sometimes days, you know, and

29:32

they're not always successful. So there's

29:34

a lot of videos online that

29:36

the students who are protesting are

29:38

watching, showing. His lifeless bodies

29:41

have kids and I think

29:43

that's. The. Reality Of the grounds:

29:45

For many of these students who are protesting

29:47

specifically, That's what they want to be taken

29:50

seriously. I think there's a reason why this

29:52

movement is spreading and is because it's not

29:54

being taken seriously. I'm

29:58

the one thing. One

30:00

can agree on. Columbia

30:02

University isn't doing a good

30:04

job here. At

30:06

responding to what's going on.

30:09

On campus. After

30:11

speaking to the students, His.

30:17

Presidency. Called you up and ask

30:19

for advice. What? Would

30:21

you Tell her? I think she's to

30:23

get on the podium, given a microphone What go

30:25

to the encampment herself? And me

30:27

some of the students and as somebody don't feel

30:29

safe. Going. To the things

30:31

that Million Klein said is gonna

30:34

stick with me forever. When I

30:36

asked her out why she thinks

30:38

the administration went to Congress and

30:40

deploy the police instead of taking

30:42

the soon seriously, she said fundamentally,

30:44

it's the way that every major

30:46

university in the country operates and

30:48

his balls in a donors and

30:50

donor interests and any kind of

30:52

study protesting. Events. Is

30:55

fundamentally incompatible. This. Is.

30:59

A Silencer Bodies and political

31:01

bodies. A dollar A desert A

31:03

just of the the undo

31:05

amount of influence. And

31:08

that to me made me feel like it

31:10

is. This isn't an issue of like specific

31:12

choices and as we're seeing how the of

31:14

the protests were spread to all of the

31:16

other campuses, there's a much larger issue here

31:19

at play in that is how important a

31:21

student body is t to these universities and

31:23

the first place. It's

31:26

just right now. feels

31:28

like university's at need

31:30

some sort of reckoning

31:32

where they re assess

31:34

how important. These. Students actually

31:37

are, and whether or not they're willing to

31:39

make small sacrifices. To.

31:45

Be. Mean to sound. I'm

31:47

always happy here, so that's.

31:51

Him. And his mail is a staff writer at

31:53

sites. And

31:55

that's are so. What next

31:57

is presented as Bernal and Swords rubbed.

32:00

Their meddle in sharm and and a celeb.

32:02

We are led by a leash Mchenry

32:05

with a little boost from says Matthews

32:07

and Richmond is the senior director of

32:09

podcast operations here at late and I'm

32:11

Mary Harris and sources that about you.