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olly.com. When

1:00

Julianne McShane wanted to report on how

1:02

some of the most vulnerable women in

1:05

the United States were dealing with the

1:07

Supreme Court's decision to overturn Roe v.

1:09

Wade, she knew exactly where she needed

1:11

to go. Tulsa, Oklahoma

1:18

Oklahoma is where two realities

1:20

collide. It is one

1:22

of 16 states that have banned

1:24

abortion almost entirely And

1:27

it has some of the

1:29

highest rates of intimate partner

1:31

violence nationwide I

1:33

think people might not realize how

1:36

significant and dangerous

1:38

it is to be

1:40

pregnant in the context of an

1:43

abusive relationship And abortion

1:45

restrictions obviously just make that

1:47

even more difficult Julianne

1:50

wanted to quantify how difficult things

1:53

were becoming for women in Oklahoma

1:56

So she met up with a domestic

1:58

violence advocate named Heather Williams Heather

2:00

is not exactly a social justice warrior. She

2:03

is a former cop. But

2:05

she told Julianne this story about

2:08

how abortion restrictions have upended

2:10

her work. Back

2:12

in the summer, she was called to a

2:14

local hospital to counsel a woman who had

2:16

requested a rape kid. Heather

2:18

does this frequently. She holds a victim's hand.

2:21

She tells them what's going to happen next. And

2:25

so this woman is in the hospital

2:27

bed, and a standard part

2:29

of the forensic exam is to

2:32

give a pregnancy test. And so

2:34

they give her the test, and

2:36

they inform her that the result

2:38

is positive. And

2:40

Heather said that she was frozen initially,

2:42

and then she just broke down crying.

2:46

Was it clear when this woman got her pregnancy

2:48

test results that

2:51

she was pregnant by her abuser? Yes.

2:55

Imagine yourself in Heather's shoes. Because

2:58

of Oklahoma's ban, there is no

3:00

abortion provider for Heather to recommend.

3:04

Oklahoma also passed one of those vigilante

3:06

laws a while back, the

3:09

ones that allow strangers to sue you

3:11

for aiding or abetting an abortion. It

3:14

got tied up in court, but still, laying

3:16

out medical options. It felt like a

3:18

risk. Was this encounter a

3:21

kind of revelation for Heather? I

3:24

think it forced her to confront what

3:26

it meant to do this work in

3:28

this new reality. I don't

3:31

think she would consider herself an abortion rights

3:33

advocate necessarily, but she

3:36

sees the survivors that she

3:38

works with, and she knows that it needs to be

3:40

an option that's available to

3:42

people. You said when

3:44

you wanted to talk about the intersection

3:47

of domestic violence and abortion,

3:50

you knew you had to go to Oklahoma. Is

3:53

Oklahoma the only place where

3:55

scenes like this are taking place, though?

3:58

No, it's half. happening all

4:01

over the place. And

4:06

advocates across the country are

4:09

in this difficult position of

4:12

not knowing what they can tell survivors,

4:14

of fearing that if they do give

4:17

them information that they could

4:19

be criminalized. Sounds like there's just

4:21

a ton of questions. Yeah,

4:23

and we probably won't

4:26

have clear answers on what

4:28

people, what advocates in these

4:30

situations could or couldn't

4:32

do, unfortunately, until there's an

4:35

attempt to prosecute someone, probably.

4:41

Today on the show, how the

4:43

new abortion landscape is causing

4:45

chaos for domestic violence advocates

4:48

and for victims. I'm

4:50

Mary Harris. You're listening to What Next? Stick

4:53

around. This

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the bad news. SAP Business

5:41

AI will not help you generate cubist

5:43

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help you roll out your plant-based packaging in

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Southeast Asia or identify

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the training your junior project manager needs to

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5:59

issues. innovations. So you

6:01

can be ready for the next opportunity. Revolutionary

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technology, real world results.

6:07

That's SAP Business AI. Before

6:13

talking about how the Dobbs decision is

6:15

impacting domestic abuse survivors in this country,

6:18

I asked Julianne McShane to lay some

6:20

groundwork for me. At the top of

6:22

the show, she called pregnancy

6:24

dangerous for American women. So

6:27

I asked her. Why? Homicide

6:29

is actually a leading cause of death

6:31

for pregnant people in the United States,

6:34

which is probably pretty shocking to a

6:36

lot of people. And

6:38

researchers say that this is

6:40

probably due to the prevalence

6:42

of both firearms and intimate

6:44

partner violence. And obviously, widespread

6:46

access to firearms in this

6:48

country is something that facilitates

6:50

intimate partner violence. Many

6:53

of the experts I talked to pointed

6:55

out also that domestic violence tends to

6:58

start or intensify during pregnancy.

7:00

It's a time of stress. Right.

7:03

Particularly if there's stress about money,

7:05

if the pregnancy was unplanned, those

7:08

are things that could drive someone

7:10

who's abusive to become more

7:13

abusive or to be abusive for the

7:15

first time. Another really interesting element that

7:17

some of the experts I talked to

7:19

outlined is that there's

7:22

sort of a paradox. They

7:24

said that oftentimes abusers will

7:26

actually purposefully try to get

7:28

someone pregnant to keep

7:30

them under their control. But

7:32

then once they become pregnant

7:34

and the reality of a

7:36

future child becomes more clear,

7:39

abusers can actually get jealous. They can get

7:42

jealous about the fact that this pregnancy, a

7:44

future child is going to take attention away

7:46

from them. And so that can also

7:48

be another factor. There's even

7:50

this phrase reproductive coercion to sort

7:53

of explain what's going

7:55

on here. Reproductive coercion

7:57

basically describes or refers to...

8:00

any kinds of threats or violence

8:02

against someone's reproductive health

8:04

or decision-making capacity. That's how the

8:07

National Domestic Violence Hotline describes

8:09

it. So this could look like forcibly

8:12

getting someone pregnant, refusing their

8:14

access to birth control, sabotaging

8:16

birth control during sex, also

8:19

forcing someone to get an abortion, although evidence

8:21

suggests that that's rare and that that's not

8:23

a widespread issue. Are

8:26

there any numbers that show how

8:29

the Dobbs decision has impacted any

8:32

of these things, either the

8:34

homicide rate for pregnant women or

8:36

reproductive coercion? There are.

8:38

There's new data that is coming out. So

8:41

the National Domestic Violence Hotline said that there

8:43

was a 98% increase

8:46

in reports of reproductive coercion the

8:48

year after Dobbs compared to the

8:50

year before. So they had more

8:52

than 2,400 callers the year

8:56

after Dobbs reporting experiencing some

8:58

form of reproductive coercion compared

9:00

to about 1,200 callers

9:02

the year before that decision. Were

9:05

people referencing the law? Like

9:07

saying, well, now that you

9:09

can't get an abortion, here we are.

9:13

Some people were. Some people, some of

9:15

the callers, according to the the conversation

9:17

I had with one of the experts

9:19

from the hotline, some of the callers

9:21

were saying that their abusers were referencing

9:24

the abortion ban in their state.

9:27

And this is also broadly

9:29

a tactic that experts expect

9:31

to increase. Basically, when

9:33

the state hands down these anti-abortion

9:36

laws and these abortion restrictions, it

9:39

can wind up enabling abusers because

9:41

it suggests that the state has

9:43

no interest in giving them

9:46

access to abortion and supporting

9:49

their reproductive autonomy. And

9:51

so it's something that an abuser can

9:53

also restrict. And it does sound like

9:55

from the anecdotes that I heard, sometimes

9:58

this is what people are. reporting.

10:01

What about the death rate for

10:03

pregnant women? Is there any data when it

10:05

comes to that? There

10:08

was a study that was

10:10

published in February that found

10:12

that actually under Roe, so

10:14

even before Dobbs, even before

10:16

things got as dire as

10:19

they have become, pregnant

10:21

and postpartum people in states with abortion

10:23

restrictions had a 75% higher rate of

10:27

homicide than those in states

10:29

that protected abortion access. And

10:32

all of those people weren't necessarily being

10:35

killed by people that they were in

10:37

intimate partner relationships with,

10:39

but that study also found that

10:41

pregnant people who died of homicide

10:44

were more likely to die because

10:46

of intimate partner violence than people

10:48

who weren't pregnant and died of

10:50

homicide. I know

10:53

that correlation doesn't equal causation, but this

10:56

correlation seems very strong. Right.

10:59

And like I said, homicide

11:01

is a leading cause of death for

11:03

pregnant people in this country. So when

11:05

you add an inability

11:08

to control your reproductive life

11:10

and to end a pregnancy

11:12

that might be unplanned

11:14

or unwanted by the abuser, also,

11:16

this is probably only going to

11:19

get worse. Would

11:22

you call what's happening with abortion and domestic

11:25

violence an unintended consequence of the Dobbs decision

11:27

or something else? You

11:30

know, I would say that that's probably

11:32

an accurate way to characterize it. I

11:34

do think you could say it's an

11:36

unintended consequence. And part of why I

11:38

say that is because many

11:41

of the arguments that anti-abortion

11:43

lawmakers and other activists are

11:45

making in their efforts

11:47

to try to get the Supreme Court to

11:49

ban medication abortion, which they'll discuss next

11:51

week in the oral arguments that are slated

11:54

for Tuesday. They tend to

11:56

make the argument that abusers use abortion

11:58

as a tool of abuse,

12:00

that medication, abortion, telehealth

12:02

abortion facilitates domestic violence

12:04

and harm survivors of

12:06

domestic violence. But the

12:08

reality is, coerced

12:11

abortions are overall quite rare.

12:13

And it's far more common

12:15

for abusers to forcibly get

12:17

someone pregnant and keep someone

12:19

pregnant as a way to

12:21

keep them under their control.

12:23

And that banning abortion

12:26

access actually harms survivors

12:28

more than anything. You

12:32

know, it's interesting talking to

12:34

you about this issue of domestic violence and

12:36

abortion. As you were

12:39

talking, I remember the

12:41

fact that there's some new data that's come out that

12:44

shows that in the years

12:46

since the Dobbs decision, the

12:49

abortion rate has actually gone up in the

12:51

United States. It's this interesting fact, it's

12:53

gone up, I think, in a sense. I

12:56

wonder what you make of that, given what you're

12:58

finding in terms

13:00

of evidence that pregnancy is being used

13:02

as a tool of abuse and

13:05

how limited advocates are in terms of what

13:07

they feel they can talk about. That's

13:11

a good question. I think

13:13

that the fact that abortion

13:16

is staying stable and increasing

13:18

in places post-Dobs just underscores

13:21

the reality that it is

13:23

still needed and that banning

13:26

abortions does not stop people

13:28

from getting them. I

13:30

think that that statistic is also

13:33

probably due in part to the

13:37

spread of telehealth abortion. We

13:39

also know that that is

13:42

increasing since the FDA in

13:44

2021 began allowing these pills

13:46

to be prescribed virtually and

13:49

to be subsequently

13:51

mailed. So experts

13:53

in this space also talk about

13:56

the significance of telehealth abortion for

13:58

people in abusive relationships. because

14:01

it can actually take away many

14:03

of the barriers that people

14:05

in abusive relationships may otherwise face

14:07

to getting abortion care in person.

14:10

So for example, getting abortion pills

14:12

mailed to your house means that

14:14

you don't have to come up

14:16

with a lie or figure out

14:18

how to explain to an abusive

14:20

partner why you need to travel,

14:22

why you need to take time off

14:24

work, why you need access to the car, why

14:27

you need more money for gas, or maybe

14:30

even lodgings for an overnight stay

14:32

somewhere. Self-managed abortion

14:34

through abortion pills also looks like

14:36

a miscarriage. So it

14:38

does away with that level of scrutiny

14:40

that you might get from an abuser.

14:43

And these scenarios Julianna's laying out, they're

14:46

not just hypothetical. Actually,

14:48

I just talked with the

14:51

physician behind Aid Access, which

14:53

is one of the largest

14:55

telehealth abortion providers. And

14:58

she relayed to me an

15:00

anecdote from someone who had

15:02

ordered abortion pills from Aid

15:04

Access and had an

15:07

at-home medication abortion in

15:09

the context of dealing with what seemed

15:11

like some sort of abusive situation. And

15:14

this person reached back out to Aid

15:16

Access after and said, thank you so

15:18

much for all of your help, and

15:22

said that her abusive partner

15:24

left after her quote unquote

15:26

miscarriage. So in this case,

15:28

I mean, there you have

15:30

an example of

15:32

someone who was able to pass

15:34

off a self-managed abortion as a

15:37

miscarriage. And it actually sounds like

15:39

it contributed to ending that

15:42

relationship. Wow. When

15:44

we look at the friend of the court

15:46

briefs that anti-abortion activists and

15:48

lawmakers have filed before the

15:50

Supreme Court, many of them

15:52

are just totally blind to

15:55

the context I just outlined. So

15:58

there definitely is an understanding. understanding

16:00

gap, willfully or not,

16:02

in how many anti-abortion

16:05

folks understand the relevance

16:08

of reproductive coercion to

16:10

people experiencing intimate partner violence. When

16:16

we come back, how abortion bans

16:18

can intersect with laws around marriage

16:21

and make even more abuse survivors

16:23

less safe. This

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episode is brought to you by SAP. First,

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17:45

For example, in the last few weeks, I've read

17:47

a lot about this Missouri law that seems

17:49

to prevent pregnant women from getting divorced. I

17:52

think it's not actually a ban. It's essentially

17:54

how that's been interpreted by judges, though, which

17:57

is that if you're pregnant, you need to tell the

17:59

court you're pregnant. and it ends

18:01

up delaying a decision there. There's a

18:03

Democratic lawmaker who's trying to

18:05

change the law there. Missouri

18:08

is also a state that has completely outlawed

18:10

abortion with no exceptions for rape and incest.

18:14

What does all that mean? Like when you

18:16

hear about a law like that, how do

18:18

you think about it given all the reporting

18:20

work that you've done? I

18:22

think it's just more evidence

18:24

that these lawmakers do

18:27

not understand the connection between

18:29

the role that pregnancy

18:31

can play in keeping someone

18:34

in an abusive relationship and

18:36

the importance of

18:38

facilitating abortion access for

18:40

them. I mean, we

18:42

know that the right is also mounting

18:45

an assault on

18:47

no-fault divorce. My colleagues

18:49

at Mother Jones have covered this. There

18:52

are broadly more efforts

18:54

among the right to make

18:57

it more difficult for people

18:59

to get divorced. So

19:01

the fact that there are laws

19:03

that are implicating pregnancy in this

19:05

is not surprising. If

19:08

they really want to support survivors

19:10

of intimate partner violence and reduce

19:12

or prevent domestic violence, that's also

19:15

going to require letting

19:17

people end abusive marriages and

19:19

letting people have access to

19:21

abortion. Yeah. I

19:24

mean, you've spoken to lawmakers, including

19:26

lawmakers who have some

19:28

pretty right-wing beliefs. When

19:30

you speak to them, do you

19:32

think they see these connections you're talking about?

19:36

The one that I can talk

19:38

about is a Republican state senator

19:41

in Oklahoma who I called up

19:43

when I was doing this reporting.

19:46

His name is Darryl Weaver, and he

19:48

has been a staunch advocate for victims

19:51

of domestic violence in the state. He

19:53

has introduced several bills, some of which

19:55

have become law, that have harshened penalties

19:58

for people who perpetrate domestic violence. Last

20:00

year, he pushed a bill that became a law

20:03

that made the first defense of domestic violence against

20:05

a pregnant woman a felony instead of a misdemeanor,

20:07

so it increased the jail time. So

20:09

he clearly wants to help in

20:11

his way pregnant women who are dealing with abuse.

20:15

Right. But when I asked

20:17

him about abortion, he actually

20:19

made a comment that I

20:21

think wound up being very

20:23

illustrative. He said that abortion

20:25

is a hot topic, and

20:28

if we talk about it in conjunction

20:30

with something like domestic violence, it could

20:32

make it more difficult to pass legislation

20:34

that aims to tackle

20:36

domestic violence. He said

20:38

if we clutter up these

20:40

concepts, it's going to diminish what we want to

20:42

do. It was an interesting phrasing to me.

20:45

When I heard that, it really drove home

20:47

to me that people like him

20:50

that in certain ways have

20:53

the best of intentions, really

20:56

don't understand the connection

20:58

between these issues. I

21:01

wonder what you said to him in that moment, because from

21:04

all of your reporting, I'm

21:06

pretty sure you would think that

21:09

it's not possible to separate out

21:11

these conversations about domestic

21:13

violence, pregnancy, abortion. So

21:16

I'm curious if you said that to

21:18

him or if he had a response to that. I

21:21

did respond actually by

21:24

citing some of the

21:26

research. He actually claimed

21:28

that I was stretching

21:30

the conclusions, and that

21:32

does not totally surprise

21:34

me because the anti-abortion

21:36

side does not have

21:38

a strong track record

21:40

when it comes to putting

21:43

together a coherent evidence base for their

21:45

claims. Like I said,

21:47

many of the anti-abortion politicians

21:50

and activists who are arguing

21:53

before the Supreme Court that

21:55

they should ban medication abortion

21:57

are citing studies that are

21:59

not based in evidence. evidence about the dangers

22:01

of medication abortion for people in

22:03

abusive relationships. You

22:06

know reading your reporting, I was struck

22:08

by how complicated and messy

22:11

all the characters were which is always interesting

22:14

because they're human. Like

22:16

you talked about how Heather Williams, that

22:18

advocate, domestic violence advocate in Oklahoma who

22:20

you spoke to, she's

22:23

not especially pro-abortion. She's not

22:26

in the streets like rallying for

22:28

it. She just wanted

22:30

to be able to talk

22:33

to her clients about it

22:35

and relay the information. What is

22:39

someone like Heather Williams want a

22:41

lawmaker like Darryl Weaver to know?

22:45

She actually, when I asked her

22:47

what do you want these anti-abortion

22:49

lawmakers to know, she

22:52

said that you know she's

22:55

the one who winds up being in the

22:57

hospital room who has to

22:59

comfort survivors like the one that she

23:01

comforted last year who found out in

23:03

front of her that she was pregnant

23:05

by an abuser. She's the one

23:08

who has to tell them it's going to be okay

23:10

even if she actually doesn't know that it's going to

23:12

be okay. And what she

23:14

said to me was that she wishes

23:16

that they were the ones that had

23:18

to comfort them. That the lawmakers

23:20

had to. The bigger

23:22

point there is that they're not

23:25

forced to confront the reality of

23:28

these laws that they're passing. They're

23:30

not seeing someone find

23:32

out that you know the dreams

23:34

that they had to further their

23:36

education. They're not in the room

23:39

seeing people's dreams dashed and their

23:41

futures become even more uncertain than

23:43

they already are because

23:46

they have an unplanned pregnancy that

23:48

they don't know if they can

23:50

terminate. And that's what

23:52

Heather wishes they had to confront.

23:56

Julian, I'm really grateful for your time. Thanks

23:59

for coming on the show. Thank you so much for

24:01

having me. I'm

24:30

the director of podcast operations here at Slate, and

24:32

I'm Mary Harris. Thanks for listening.

24:34

I'll talk to you soon. Hey

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