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law. Most.

1:10

Weekdays journalist Andrew Race shows

1:12

up to a criminal court

1:14

in Manhattan and conferences surreal

1:16

scene. The. Former President of

1:19

the United States, defending himself against

1:21

thirty four felony counts. I

1:28

mean, it's quite. Tense. As

1:32

you might imagine, The.

1:36

Absurdity still has not worn

1:38

off yet for anyone. You

1:42

can serve tell when things are heating

1:44

up because all the said you started

1:46

here in keyboards clattering a little louder

1:48

and a little faster. The reporters will

1:50

actually be posting things at An and

1:53

Donald Trump's True Social can't be commenting

1:55

on things are happening and the court

1:57

will donald trump the sitting right there.

2:00

It's not adequate, postmodern, and I guess

2:02

appropriately for Donald Trump's a lot of

2:04

it's happening on mine. Part

2:07

of what interests Andrew is the

2:09

people sitting next to Trump the

2:11

attorneys who are making his keys

2:13

for him. Trump's. Gonna whole swarm

2:15

of them at this point. And

2:17

in his previous trials, the civil trials,

2:20

These lawyers definitely had a style.

2:23

Welds. I would characterize

2:25

them as being mega. As

2:28

you might expect, that led to

2:30

some boisterous. Performances like of the

2:32

eg. in Carol Destination Trial where

2:35

the judge was vocally critical of

2:37

one attorney in particular. He

2:40

criticized her for.

2:42

Not. Knowing. The.

2:45

Kind of technical rules about how

2:47

you introduce evidence and federal courts.

2:49

I one point the judge threatened

2:51

to hold her in contempt. He

2:53

said he she was on the

2:55

verge of spending a night in

2:57

the lock up. Alternate result was

2:59

and eighty three million dollar verdict

3:01

against them. Not a great outcome.

3:04

Not a great out of. This. Case

3:06

and or says it's difference.

3:09

Is a whole new cast of

3:11

characters. Trump is retained and noted

3:13

mob defense attorney. And then there's

3:15

his lead. Attorney. A

3:17

guy named Todd Blanche. And

3:19

now he basically represents down from

3:21

full time. And number of

3:23

things about toddlin said I think would

3:26

surprise male stars like a vac that's

3:28

instilled. A. Year ago, he

3:30

was a registered democrat. That. He

3:32

used to work in the same office is

3:34

the prosecutor here Manhattan Da Owls. And brag.

3:37

And. All that is. Kind. Of surprising to

3:39

me. Yeah. I talked to last

3:41

and he was pretty pretty opening, candid

3:43

with me and my conversations about sort

3:46

of way that the case a bit

3:48

and talking with his friends. There's a

3:50

lot of people who are just absolutely

3:52

kind of our dumbfounded by the by

3:55

the decision and and has caused a

3:57

lot of consternation within within that community.

3:59

Be. Just people asking your why

4:01

is Todd doing this. Why

4:06

would somebody who was a

4:08

prosecutor, someone who's commitment and

4:10

system and institutionalist with a

4:12

got advice committed to kind

4:14

of tearing down this very

4:16

institutions? Today

4:21

on the show the man

4:23

defending Trump's why exactly as

4:25

he there's any see the

4:27

secret weapon that could keep

4:29

Trump's out of jail. I'm

4:31

Mary Harris. Fearlessly. Do it

4:33

next. Stick around. This

4:44

episode is brought to my burrow as

4:46

soon as the weather's getting a little

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7:26

I asked interest explain how this. Attorney

7:28

Todd Blanche became the person homing

7:30

was arguably the most important criminal

7:32

trial in the country. He

7:35

wanted me to know about. Glances Grits.

7:38

Andrew says Lynch's pedigree just doesn't look

7:40

like that of a lot of top

7:42

tier New York attorney is. He

7:45

bounced around and college about. ended

7:47

up at American University ah and

7:49

graduated from their American Job is

7:51

a good in school but like

7:53

you know, not not ivy league.

7:57

And after that he became a pair.

7:59

The League on the Justice Department ultimately

8:01

ended up be at work as a

8:03

paralegal and the Southern District of New

8:05

York which is a be the most

8:08

prestigious. Of federal prosecutor's

8:10

office and and the whole country says

8:12

work and a paralegal and going to

8:14

broken law school at night and. Married

8:16

with kids at this point ran. By

8:19

the time he was in about twenty five

8:21

years old, he is married, had two kids,

8:23

and was living on Long Island. Very different

8:25

kind of life and background than a lot

8:27

of people he was working with. To. And.

8:30

That office. Yeah you have people who have

8:32

been Supreme Court clerks. You have people who

8:34

went to Harvard and Yale Law School. You

8:36

can a joke make fun of them a

8:39

little bit and call them Harvard. Harvard's like

8:41

Harvard undergrad Harvard Law School Yes exactly and

8:43

he became a supervisor. They're very quickly so

8:45

use the boss for a lot of the

8:47

Harvard Harvard so you know use the way

8:49

that he he described it to me as

8:52

he he would sort of say like if

8:54

somebody work from came and they would make

8:56

a suggestion. he is a while you not

8:58

Harvard Harvard the maybe I. Think that we should

9:00

do this as a you know. Something.

9:03

He had a good reputation. At the

9:05

Us Attorney's office, my general sense was

9:08

that he was somebody who is really

9:10

beloved Their yeah I think people thought

9:12

that he had this kind of institutional

9:15

esas years. He believed in there cause

9:17

I there and the Southern district and

9:19

it can kind of sound corny to

9:22

outsiders, but those thugs really do believe

9:24

that they are you, the elite of

9:26

people trying to uphold law and order

9:29

in New York. Ah, so they're prosecuting

9:31

at that time there prosecuting Al Qaeda

9:33

terrorists. Their prosecuting Bernie Madoff. At that

9:35

time. Eventually Todd Bland slept his

9:38

job at the Southern District And

9:40

when corporate. He. Was working at

9:42

a White Shoe law firm in Manhattan kan wallet

9:44

or. It's affirmed that likes to call

9:46

itself the oldest in New York City. And

9:49

that's when Blanche started entering Trump's

9:51

orbit. Slowly. At first.

9:54

He started by representing Paul

9:56

Manafort comes twenty sixteen campaign

9:59

manager here. Manafort

10:01

thrown out of course. Then

10:03

blames his retained by Trump World Political

10:06

strategist Boris Epstein. It's his job was

10:08

to build up a staff of attorneys

10:10

for the criminal cases the former President

10:13

was staring down. He's acting

10:15

as as as a sort of consultant

10:17

bar subside who was kind of running

10:19

point on all this and and they

10:21

were not having a ton of successor

10:23

going All these law firms are trying

10:25

to that they're saying my is no

10:27

object We have a Super pac and

10:29

scots hundreds of millions of dollars and

10:31

they're not getting firms to say yes

10:33

firms are not or not jumping have

10:36

the chance represent all Trump's and eventually

10:38

Blanche decided that he would do it

10:40

himself. So. He did. A

10:42

Dick Cheney is like I'm going to be

10:44

in charge of the Presidential Search Committee and

10:46

I'm it's me or he. He Actually, yes,

10:48

he. He jokingly made that same comparison. To

10:51

me. And

10:53

I think said he. He told

10:55

me that he came to to

10:58

feels as though as hypocrisy in

11:00

the legal community that he came

11:02

from about represented don't have to

11:04

be so do to for sixteen

11:06

kinda representation know as your mobsters

11:09

could get representation but the former

11:11

president united states for some reason

11:13

he is beyond the pale and

11:15

that didn't really that didn't sit

11:17

well with with blanche and and

11:20

so he decided. He wanted to take

11:22

the case. His partners at Cadwallader said, i

11:24

know you can take it. If you want

11:26

to take it, you're gotta quit And so

11:29

he said, you know I quit. Through.

11:31

Statement about Iran confidence with

11:34

this case. I

11:37

mean, it is

11:39

both a fantastically

11:41

risky bet. On. Blinds

11:43

as part on himself. Ah,

11:46

I'm and on. Another

11:48

level Me many times I

11:50

talked to sought another way

11:52

which was set. In this

11:54

is the biggest case of there is

11:56

and if you if you represent Donald

11:58

Trump. In the the case

12:01

and represent him successfully he suddenly

12:03

become the person who who took

12:05

on the most you know the

12:07

hardest case in the hardest jurisdiction.

12:10

Now. That he's in the courtroom. Unable.

12:13

To avoid a trial. As. Far

12:15

as you can tell what is Todd blanche

12:17

his plan. So. His

12:20

plan and they're pretty open about

12:22

this is. To go. For

12:24

mistrials. Ah. I don't

12:26

think. Anyone. Ah,

12:30

Down the defense team or or anywhere

12:32

else maybe not even Donald Trump themselves

12:34

thinks that they're gonna win a full

12:36

acquittal in New York. I miss

12:38

around basically means like. Depending on

12:41

one juror to just hold

12:43

out and say. Now.

12:46

One. Or more. Yeah, I mean

12:48

I think the basically third simple

12:50

as here is dead or is

12:52

to try to steal away one

12:54

or two jurors are three or

12:56

four. But like I'm a segment

12:58

of jurors and get them thinking

13:00

that this is like that Donald

13:02

Trump is not a laudable person.

13:04

That this person is not a

13:06

good person. But

13:09

did case has been brought against them

13:11

as political and other cases that and

13:13

brought against him is kind of penny

13:15

ante and. During jury selection there

13:17

was a lot of attempt to

13:19

kind of find. Jurors:

13:22

Who who who might be

13:24

willing to listen to Donald

13:26

Trump is not necessary, dull

13:28

and necessarily to like him.

13:31

And me, Juri sucks. I'm a sort of

13:33

fascinating meters the number of people who were

13:36

just. The said the

13:38

they're just be unable to set their

13:40

bias aside and guides Donald Trump I'm

13:42

on the merits. The case was really

13:44

staggering and that was like a get

13:46

out of jury free card essentially. A

13:49

was a mean in the new the understand

13:51

why the why the judge did it because

13:53

he brought end of. You. Easily

13:55

two groups and ninety six people it's first

13:58

question they ask just everybody agrees your hand

14:00

if you don't feel like you to judge

14:02

Donald Trump and and in both cases about

14:05

half of them raise their hand Walked out.

14:09

So. the trees been seat ad. And

14:11

they'll make the final decision here. But.

14:15

During. The trial. It's to judge who runs

14:17

a court room. In this case

14:20

the judge is named one Marshawn. I.

14:22

Was he interacting with Todd Blanche in his

14:25

team? Well,

14:27

not very well. Ah, muscles, you

14:30

know, I think set. And

14:32

this is Not. Bled. Into

14:34

the trial itself, in the presence

14:36

of the jury. Yet so one.

14:39

One question is is how much the jury

14:41

is really going to see this but outside

14:43

of the presence of the jury thera Then.

14:46

There's. Been a lot of tension. A

14:48

lot of back and forth

14:51

between Blanche and the judge.

14:53

Really? The big thing where their

14:56

clashing is over this gag order

14:58

that I'm their The Marathon put

15:00

on the album for the case

15:03

and Compass prohibited from ah attacking

15:05

or otherwise times and Tim Day

15:07

witnesses, prosecutors, members of the prosecutors

15:10

families and maybe most importantly jurors.

15:12

The prosecutors why I'm held in

15:14

contempt, right? Because they're saying he's

15:17

not abiding by the gag order.

15:19

That's right And the prosecutors came

15:21

in and on argued they presented.

15:24

I think eleven social media

15:26

posts including and then even

15:28

they they cited. Some

15:30

of Trump's comments I used outside

15:33

the courtroom the day before. I

15:35

eat each in each case at

15:38

yeah, we're calling, you know, Is

15:41

it's users are witnesses for the

15:43

prosecution sees bags and one case

15:45

it was really quite damaging to

15:47

print I think. I see

15:49

repost the Fox News segment that

15:51

suggested the some of the jurors

15:54

word liberal activists out. it's after

15:56

that happened Ah, the juror and

15:58

question actually came in and. Well

16:00

as his during the jury selection process.

16:02

Judges not happy about that at all.

16:04

From and so I think I think

16:07

there's a very high probability that of

16:09

Dumb Trump will be held in contempt.

16:11

What kind of arguments did blanche have

16:13

to make in order to explain these

16:16

kind of posts? Well. I

16:18

mean he, he basically had

16:20

to sort of tried to

16:22

justify the unjustifiable blanche. Sad.

16:25

To muthana One point that no. Downtime.

16:28

Is trying to comply with this glad gag order

16:30

Which is to say I think what he's trying

16:32

to say was that. The

16:35

Trump was trying to limit his

16:37

criticisms only the people as that

16:39

we're not covered by the gag

16:41

order or to responding to a

16:43

political tax ah many judges wasn't

16:45

having any. That argument is called

16:47

a silly and he told Black

16:49

C you're losing all credibility with

16:51

this court. Does. Not wear any attorney

16:53

wants to d when you're arguing in front of

16:55

a judge. Yeah I mean I think

16:57

I think in some ways Marshawn was the

17:00

same the quiet part out loud because you

17:02

know I don't think that I don't think

17:04

that Marseilles treating him. I'm word comes defense

17:06

team before that as as he felt as

17:09

as they had much credibility. So. What

17:11

is this exchange? Tell you about?

17:14

How you think the rest of this case will go?

17:18

Well. I said. What's

17:20

Gonna Happen I suspect is a

17:23

you're gonna have a kind of

17:25

content feedback loop and as it's

17:27

series, frown on that and frown

17:30

on people. I'm trying to attack

17:32

the system and attacked the integrity

17:34

of the process and least they're

17:37

participating so I think it could

17:39

end up having extremely negative consequences

17:42

for for trump or both. In

17:44

terms of the verdict, And.

17:48

In. Terms of Sentencing: Marshawn is known

17:50

for being a very. Harsh

17:53

sentence or especially with a

17:55

white collar defendants. Marshawn has

17:58

another context as well. Oh,

18:00

and why Subordinates most notably who

18:02

is it's Chief Financial Officer the

18:04

Trump Organisation pleaded guilty to some

18:06

financial crimes. As for people in

18:09

jail as potable Rikers Island. I've

18:15

talked to people who are involved

18:17

in previous cases in front of

18:19

him and think that it's entirely

18:21

possible that this judge could sentence

18:23

on Trump's yeah. After

18:27

the break, my even the best

18:29

attorneys might not be confident enough

18:31

for Donald Trump. This

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If you want to understand what is happening

19:16

in the United States right now, you really

19:18

need to understand what's happening with the courts,

19:20

the law, and the Supreme court. The battle

19:23

between democracy and whatever this cage match is

19:25

that we're witnessing. It's gonna be won and

19:27

lost at the ballot box, but it's also

19:29

going to be won and lost. In

19:31

the Clintons. And Dahlia Lithwick

19:34

I hope sleeps, legal process anarchists

19:36

and we are doubling our helpless

19:38

being you weekly episodes from here

19:40

on in because how else can

19:42

we keep an eye on them?

19:45

Many child of Donald Trump, the

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Cel Follow Am against wherever you

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get your podcast. New as. Stopping.

20:00

Every evening. You.

20:08

Know looking at your article which gets

20:11

into. Trump's Criminal Trials

20:13

strategy In a guy leading it's

20:15

hard Blanche. Something.

20:17

Stood out. To me about plants.

20:20

Which. Is that he seems. Like

20:22

a classic attorney like that.

20:24

The kind of attorney who's

20:27

able to look at the

20:29

legal system as a strategy

20:31

game. And he's a

20:33

competitor. And Ironman. Competitor Literally,

20:35

he wants to win, but he can

20:37

also like shake off losses and pivot

20:39

and try to find a winning strategy.

20:43

This approach. Is. Cool

20:45

approach. It. Seems harder

20:48

to manage if you think your

20:50

client is a threat to American

20:52

democracy. Some.

20:54

sort a curious. Do. You think

20:57

Blanche sees his clients that way? Know.

21:01

He. Doesn't her? Arm.

21:04

In some ways I

21:06

think the that the

21:08

attacks that plants himself,

21:10

some has and profession

21:12

has served hardened his

21:14

has determination to represent

21:16

for Donald Trump. And

21:18

he has He's He

21:20

is now living part

21:22

time in Florida near

21:24

Palm Beach. He's a

21:27

registered Republican I he

21:29

believes. I think pretty

21:31

earnestly that Donald Trump's

21:33

political opponents are. Using

21:35

the legal system. To. Try

21:37

to destroy Donald Trump as

21:40

a political figure and and

21:42

and I think he thinks

21:44

that that is an inappropriate

21:46

use of prosecutorial power. And

21:48

so either you can, ah,

21:50

you can have a different

21:53

view of some of that.

21:55

Question. And I certainly do,

21:57

but I think it seems.

22:00

It clear that that flanges earnest

22:02

and thinking that on it's not

22:04

a good luck for democracy. To

22:07

be prosecuting. A

22:09

presidential candidate in the midst of

22:11

a campaign and which he says

22:13

press the leading candidate in the

22:16

polls arm over Are you in

22:18

Manhattan? What is a relatively minor

22:20

of financial and. You

22:23

know there's a long tradition and he

22:25

on the law that yeah everyone's entitled

22:27

to the this legal defense and there's

22:29

a lot of people thank. You.

22:31

Donald Trump of all people, Should

22:34

have a competent lawyer because. You.

22:36

Know. It's it's it's it's

22:39

it's if you think it's a

22:41

bad look for democracy to be

22:43

prosecuting a presidential candidate and miss

22:46

an election and be even worse

22:48

to has that person to be

22:50

incompetently represented. Ah, and and not

22:53

given the full full opportunity to

22:55

defend himself in court on your

22:58

course. A problem is is that

23:00

even the most competent lawyer can

23:02

overcome mad self sabotaging client. Law

23:05

mean that there really is a problem with

23:07

representing. Trump. The fact that you're always

23:10

representing Trump like no matter where you

23:12

go, there you are at. By which

23:14

I mean like else as a client

23:16

he's just hard to control. You can't

23:19

same be quiet, you can't. Say

23:21

it's Don't do that because

23:23

there's just really solid evidence

23:25

he won't. Listen.

23:27

To you like I look at one

23:29

of the cases that Blanche himself is

23:31

handling. The Classified Documents case in

23:33

Florida. And as part

23:35

of that case. Stories. Of

23:38

com out about Trump's attorneys

23:40

at the time telling him

23:42

if you. Don't respond to

23:44

these to be in as

23:46

about classified documents. That's a

23:48

crime. It. Didn't make

23:50

a difference. I don't think. That.

23:53

I guess I wonder. When you're

23:55

some of my time, Blanche, you have

23:57

all of this information and evidence that

23:59

the people. Who came before

24:01

you were incredibly exposed.

24:04

so just. Have lynch have

24:06

red lines here? Thinks. He'll do

24:08

things will not do. How.

24:11

Does he think about that? More.

24:13

I think that probably goes beyond the

24:15

scope us of of like what I

24:17

what I know and maybe what anybody

24:19

knows even published as about about. Where

24:22

Terblanche As? unless I mean I think

24:24

I can say generally speaking I think

24:26

a lot of individuals who represent Donald

24:28

Trump and I've talked to many of

24:31

them. You many many many of them

24:33

go in thinking long as I'm going

24:35

to control him I'm going to be

24:37

the one is gonna be the Trump

24:39

whisper and and bring and around to

24:41

you know realizing that it's all and

24:43

it's it's it's in is not just

24:45

in the interests of the system but

24:47

his own best interest to to behave

24:49

and and to moderators behavior to act

24:51

differently. To respect the process cetera et

24:53

cetera and the people who try to

24:56

manage him in the people tried control

24:58

them and up either of. Quitting.

25:01

And frustration or

25:03

compromising themselves. And

25:06

I think that's where Todd blanche

25:08

as I now it says, in

25:10

the process of figuring out how

25:12

much he's going to allow trump

25:14

to to manage him and how

25:17

much in aware that line as

25:19

on. And how far.

25:22

And he will go in terms

25:24

as. A You know,

25:26

allowing Trump to disrupt the

25:28

process. Being. In.

25:31

A few weeks is a trial

25:33

continues Avenue said. Atlanta the

25:35

attorneys for Trump or not having a great

25:37

time is it in front of the jones?

25:40

What are you watching for to see if.

25:43

They're. Able to turn things around or is

25:45

turning things around? Kind of not the

25:47

point. Like the point is just a

25:49

focus like a laser on getting that

25:51

one or two or three jurors who

25:53

will just. Slipped.

25:55

Up for you. I think there's

25:57

two things. One is the third said. Miss

26:00

Trials Dry, you tie the hang

26:02

Me Juri What's called the jury

26:05

nullification strategy on. By

26:07

it. But I think that actually from

26:09

thousand. A bigger strategy

26:11

that that is not about the

26:13

clerk which is just a while

26:15

grander nullification strategy which is that

26:17

you know if he wins the

26:19

election. a lot of these problems

26:22

go away. so I'm so so.

26:24

I think that the thing to

26:26

really watch of the courses of

26:28

the next few weeks is how.

26:31

Are. Is this

26:33

how much is what's happening

26:35

in the court? Impacting

26:38

the political dynamic. As

26:41

because because ultimately this

26:44

isn't going to end

26:46

with. A verdict of Twelve

26:48

people in New York it's gonna And

26:50

with the verdict is. A

26:52

one hundred million people at the polls and

26:54

November? yeah, that's going to be the verdict

26:56

that's gonna matter. And as Donald Trump. Loses

26:59

that he's in all likelihood going

27:01

to end up. Being

27:04

convicted. Ah, not just

27:06

it in and Manhattan, but he's

27:08

not like we're going to your

27:10

very likely be convicted in Washington,

27:12

D C and the game or

27:14

six case to very likely be

27:16

almost certainly be convicted in Florida.

27:18

Ah, I'm in the classified documents

27:20

case. I'm in a who knows

27:22

what's gonna happen in Georgia but

27:25

but nonetheless a face very strong

27:27

legal consequences I think. Some.

27:29

Of these cases, Don't matter, As

27:32

much as a means of we're saying

27:34

is the case is themselves right now

27:36

are not the focus. Well

27:38

I think that if you win the

27:41

election. Did. Said

27:43

solves all of his problems on

27:45

legally. Speaking. So

27:51

I think it's not that they don't matter,

27:53

I mean is it that they all have

27:55

a political impact and they they all add

27:57

to steaks of the selection bottom the way

27:59

be in the hands of side will be

28:02

in the hands of voters and and the

28:04

hands of the article college. It's whether this

28:06

and ends with a conviction or whether it

28:08

ends with down from a more sort of.

28:12

And erase think so much for coming

28:14

on the show. I'm grateful for sex.

28:18

And Race is a teacher's writer for

28:20

New York Magazine, and she's also the

28:22

author of the Year that Broke America.

28:28

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