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up the ranks or automate repetitive tasks

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while you focus on big innovations

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1:06

next opportunity. Revolutionary technology, real world

1:08

results. that's as a be business

1:10

ai. Last.

1:20

Week Alabama had a first in

1:22

the nation moment. The. Not

1:24

no way that many people wanted

1:26

to celebrate their his kind of

1:28

nations and both in the Us

1:31

and around the world. After the

1:33

state of Alabama executed a man

1:35

using nitrogen gas, Alabama became one

1:37

of the first places in the

1:39

world to attempt in execution Using

1:41

nitrogen gas. The nitrogen gas was

1:43

administered, his body began to shake

1:45

for about two minutes, all by

1:47

heavy breathing for about five to

1:49

seven minutes. Some called this

1:52

execution a straight up experiment.

1:54

the United Nations warrant it

1:56

might. violate human rights treaties that

1:58

the u s inside on to.

2:00

No longer untested, Alabama says the

2:02

nitrogen method could be used on

2:04

43 other death

2:06

row inmates. The

2:10

prisoner who was killed was named

2:12

Kenneth Smith. Everyone who knew him just called

2:15

him Kenny. And even

2:17

though all this happened a few days back,

2:20

it felt worthwhile to linger on,

2:23

even now. So I

2:25

called up someone who was there, someone

2:27

who could tell me what exactly went down

2:29

in the execution chamber. By

2:32

the time that Kenny Smith was put to death, how

2:35

long had you been at the Holman Correctional

2:38

Facility that day? A

2:42

long time, very long time. The

2:44

Reverend Dr. Jeff Hood is an

2:47

anti-death penalty advocate. He's

2:49

also a spiritual advisor for death row

2:51

inmates. So we

2:53

started at 8 and

2:56

so 4, 10, 11, close to 12 hours.

3:02

Kenny Smith's execution was the fifth Jeff

3:05

has been to in just a little

3:07

over a year. Jeff

3:09

sits with inmates the whole day, ministering

3:11

them, but also just talking.

3:13

And he stays beside them, even

3:16

in the death chamber itself. Yeah,

3:19

it's a very strange moment.

3:21

And I'll also say this,

3:23

that when you

3:26

get down to those last five minutes, there

3:30

is nothing more horrible than sitting

3:32

there. And people's,

3:34

every precious second with someone they

3:37

love is just ticking away. And

3:39

there's no way to catch it.

3:42

It's just flowing through

3:44

their fingers, throwing through their lives.

3:47

And the tears and the just

3:51

wails, it's horrible. It's absolutely

3:53

horrible. In

3:57

the days since Kenny Smith was

3:59

killed, there's An active public

4:01

debate. About whether his

4:04

execution went well or went

4:06

poorly. It. Definitely took

4:08

awhile. Smith. Visibly struggled

4:10

as nitrogen gas cap pumped

4:13

into M. It. Was

4:15

a half hour before he was declared dead. Whether

4:18

this execution is understood. To have

4:21

been humane or even just acceptable.

4:23

Has real consequences, Other

4:26

states are considering executing inmates

4:28

with nitrogen gas. And

4:30

dozens of death row prisoners

4:32

in Alabama have no requested

4:34

this execution. Method. The

4:39

Attorney General's said this was a

4:41

text book execution. Where. Did

4:43

you make of that as

4:45

he's a liar? Felix is

4:48

either a liar, a lunatic.

4:50

The horrible thing about. These

4:53

common sense of these statements

4:55

and what is that? The

4:57

people who are. In

4:59

and of course this is always the

5:01

case with the people who are in

5:03

power and making these comments are not

5:06

the people who actually had to carry

5:08

out. The. Execution. Today

5:13

on the show What happened

5:15

inside Alabama's execution Chamber. I'm

5:17

Mary Harris. You're listening to

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apply. This episode

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is brought to you by SAP. First, the mad

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news. SAP Business AI will

6:16

not help you generate cubist versions of

6:18

your family's holiday photos, but

6:21

it will help you understand which supplier is best

6:23

to help you roll out your plant-based packaging

6:25

in Southeast Asia, or

6:27

identify the training your junior project manager needs

6:29

to rise up the ranks, or

6:32

automate repetitive tasks while you focus

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you can be ready for the next opportunity. Revolutionary

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technology, real world results.

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That's SAP Business AI. The

6:49

Reverend Dr. Jeff Hood started out

6:51

as a death penalty protester, one

6:54

of those people outside of prison, asking

6:56

the state to shut their death chambers

6:58

down. It did not

7:00

take him long to figure out that was not working.

7:04

Having gone to the seminary, he quickly

7:06

realized he could play a different role,

7:08

the role of spiritual advisor to the

7:10

accused. Now he's got

7:12

a calendar full of meetings with death row

7:14

inmates. He's got executions

7:17

he's attending. One of the things

7:19

he's really clear about though, is that

7:21

the people he's ministering to, they've

7:24

done bad things, often really

7:26

bad things. You start off

7:29

really naive in sort of this

7:32

everybody's innocent kind of way. One

7:34

of the early guys that I interacted with

7:36

was a serial killer of children. So

7:39

I was sitting there with him, and we

7:41

were talking about everything, and I asked him if there

7:44

was anything that I could do for him. And

7:46

he said, could you send me a picture of your children? Oh, and

7:52

it was a moment where it was like,

7:54

you know, a slap in the face of

7:56

this is the reality of this work, that

7:59

sometimes Sometimes it's going to

8:01

be loving and wonderful. Other times

8:03

it's going to be hard and

8:06

disturbing. And I think

8:08

over the years what I've realized is the

8:11

more difficult the situation, the more

8:13

human it feels. How'd

8:16

you meet Kenneth Smith? Like what was

8:18

your first meeting with him like? The first thing

8:20

he asked me when we met was, are

8:22

you prepared to die to be my spiritual

8:24

advisor? Kenny

8:26

Smith asked Jeff this question

8:28

because Kenny knew his execution

8:30

would be something totally different.

8:32

He'd be wearing a

8:34

gas mask that would get pumped full of

8:36

nitrogen, cutting off his oxygen supply. But

8:40

if that gas mask leaked, it

8:42

could put Jeff in danger. The

8:45

state of Alabama made him sign a waiver about

8:47

it. It just outlined the

8:49

dangers of nitrogen hypoxia and made

8:52

you consent to

8:54

being a part of a very dangerous

8:56

experiment. He asked

8:58

that question and we got to know

9:01

each other a little bit before there

9:03

was like a definite committed

9:05

to each other. It's a strange

9:07

phenomenon. It's like dating. When you

9:09

get to know these guys on death

9:12

row and it's almost

9:14

like then you're going steady and then you commit

9:16

to each other and then you

9:19

kind of go all the way in terms of going

9:21

to the execution chamber and whatnot.

9:25

I think it's important that we tell

9:27

Kenny Smith's story a little bit. He

9:30

was convicted of being involved in

9:32

a murder for hire plot. He helped actually

9:34

kill a pastor's wife, a woman named Elizabeth

9:36

Sennett. Originally

9:38

he was sentenced to death, but then he got another

9:41

trial. Actually

9:43

those jurors wanted to send him

9:45

to prison for life, right? Right.

9:47

Yeah. It's important to point out that this

9:49

is a man who took $1,000 to kill

9:52

someone. A

9:55

completely innocent person. It

9:58

was a horrible crime. And

10:00

I always feel the need to

10:02

state that because I think sometimes

10:04

that gets lost in the hoopla

10:07

of it all. But I

10:09

also think that the

10:11

way that this case was handled

10:13

in Alabama speaks

10:16

to a lot of the

10:18

injustices in Alabama. I mean, you

10:22

know, in his second trial,

10:24

the jurors very clearly stated that

10:26

they did not want to give him

10:28

the death penalty. The judge

10:30

overrode that decision and gave him

10:33

the death penalty, which is known

10:35

as judicial override. And it's no

10:37

longer permitted in Alabama or any

10:39

other state. Right, right, right. It was

10:41

outlawed a couple of years ago. The best way of

10:43

saying it is, if this trial happened today, if Kenny's

10:45

trial happened today, he would have never gotten the death

10:47

penalty. And

10:50

then he was scheduled for execution by lethal injection

10:52

in 2022 and the lethal injection failed. So

10:57

it just adds these

10:59

layers of complication

11:02

to his story. Right.

11:05

I mean, he compared that botched

11:07

execution to being under a sewing

11:09

machine. Oh, because

11:11

they were looking for a vein with a needle.

11:14

Yeah, they were looking for a vein and just

11:16

consistently being poked and cut. And

11:18

Kenny's story represents sort of all

11:20

of the things that are wrong

11:22

with not just the death

11:24

penalty, but the criminal justice system in Alabama.

11:27

I mean, it's

11:29

– everybody called this execution

11:31

an experiment, but in a

11:33

lot of ways, the criminal justice system down

11:35

there itself is an experiment. And

11:38

I think that's no

11:40

mistake that Kenny embarrassed

11:43

the state by surviving, and

11:46

he was the first person executed by nitrogen epoxy.

11:48

I think that they were going to figure out

11:50

a way to kill him no matter what. Why

11:52

do you say that? They

11:55

were not going to allow this to fail. I think

11:58

you see that in these moments where – where people

12:01

are willing to go to great

12:03

lengths to do

12:05

something that is morally reprehensible

12:09

to prove that they have the power

12:11

to do something that's morally reprehensible. Did

12:15

you read up on the

12:17

nitrogen hypoxia execution method to

12:19

better understand it before you

12:22

worked with Kenny Smith? Like, what did you want to know?

12:24

What did you learn? I didn't

12:26

learn about nitrogen hypoxia until after

12:29

I agreed to... It was

12:31

another one of those things where I didn't

12:33

want that to influence whether or not

12:36

I worked with him. I'm dedicated

12:38

to these guys and after

12:40

that though, I became quickly acquainted

12:42

with everything. Yeah, a lot

12:44

of experts compare this kind of death, which the

12:47

way it worked, my understanding is that a mask

12:49

was put over Kenny Smith's face and people

12:52

compared to putting a plastic bag over someone's

12:54

head, like just cutting off your access to

12:56

oxygen. Yeah, it was

12:59

just absolutely horrific. I

13:02

knew that it was going to be much

13:04

more visceral than lethal

13:06

injection. A lethal

13:08

injection looks relatively peaceful because

13:11

of the paralytic. There's

13:14

all sorts of interpretations about what

13:16

actually happens after the

13:18

paralytic. With this, it looks

13:21

like someone, like you said, has a

13:23

bag over their head and

13:25

they're suffocating to death. But I think

13:27

it's even a better

13:29

comparison is it looks

13:32

like someone puts their hands around your

13:34

neck and chokes you out with their bare

13:36

hands because that's what the resistance look like.

13:41

I've kept on saying that it looked like a fish

13:44

out of water just on a

13:46

dock suffocating to death. But

13:49

now I'm beginning to think it's much

13:51

more violent, even more violent than that.

13:54

It feels like it's someone putting

13:56

their hands around someone's neck and

13:58

choking them out. I mean,

14:01

that's how he moved, as if someone

14:03

was physically killing him

14:05

with their bare hands. My

14:08

understanding is that he gave the sign language symbol

14:10

for I Love You right before

14:13

he was executed. He did. And

14:15

I very much appreciated that about him, and

14:17

I very much appreciated that in those moments

14:20

it was as if he was ministering

14:22

to me as much as I was ministering

14:24

to him. When

14:28

the execution actually commenced,

14:32

Kenny actually had a smile on his face.

14:35

I was very surprised by that because I've

14:37

worked with so many people who

14:39

were terrified at death. State

14:42

officials had said ahead of time

14:45

that the nitrogen gas

14:47

would make Kenny Smith unconscious

14:49

within seconds, right? Yes,

14:52

they lied. I

14:54

mean, they lied. I mean, there's no

14:56

other way to describe it. They lied.

14:59

I mean, it was 22 minutes of hell. And

15:04

it was the most violent thing I've

15:06

ever seen. I mean, I was a

15:09

trauma chaplain at a hospital for a

15:12

year or so back in Fort Worth, and

15:14

motorcycle crashes, gunshot victims. And

15:17

this was definitely the most

15:20

violent thing I've ever seen. And

15:22

this is the crazy—this is another crazy

15:24

thing about Alabama, and I've

15:26

also seen executions in Oklahoma and Texas.

15:30

And every other state that I have been in,

15:32

there is a doctor that comes out and

15:34

pronounces the time of death. In

15:37

Alabama, that doesn't happen. So

15:39

when the curtains close and I'm

15:41

let out of the room, there's

15:43

no way to tell if that person is actually

15:45

dead. I mean, because

15:48

there is no pronouncement of death. There's no

15:50

checking of vital signs. All

15:52

we know is that

15:54

the state is claiming that they got

15:56

a flat line on the EKG in—

16:00

the control center behind Kenny, but

16:02

there's nobody that comes out and

16:04

actually checks. The lack

16:06

of transparency that the

16:08

state of Alabama continues to show

16:10

throughout all of these processes, you

16:13

know, extends into the very end. I

16:15

mean, extends to actually when

16:17

the person dies and if they are

16:19

really dead. I'm

16:22

curious about you in the

16:24

death chamber itself, because

16:27

you're an anti-death penalty advocate

16:30

and you're watching a man get executed.

16:34

Were you torn at all about your

16:36

role? Always. Always.

16:40

I mean, you know, I

16:42

find myself in those moments just

16:45

absolutely morally

16:47

tortured. And I walk out

16:49

of there every

16:51

time feeling like I was co-opted, feeling

16:54

like it was, you know, I

16:56

was there to keep the peace while, you

16:59

know, I was there to

17:01

like spiritually hold this person down while

17:03

the state killed them. And

17:07

it's something that keeps me awake at

17:09

night. But on the other

17:11

hand, I also know that, you

17:14

know, all of my

17:16

guys in some form or another

17:19

let me know, sometimes very bluntly, let me

17:21

know that they're

17:23

just so thankful that they don't have

17:25

to experience those moments alone.

17:28

That's the best I can do. But you

17:31

know, you just can't, you can't

17:33

be a part of that and walk out clean.

17:41

I used to have this sort

17:43

of self-righteousness when I first went

17:45

in and said, the hardest

17:47

thing about it is that when this

17:49

person is executed,

17:51

I look around and

17:54

see, you know, like I'm surrounded by

17:56

murderers, you know, as if

17:58

I'm the only one righteous in the room. I

18:01

don't feel like that anymore. I feel the

18:04

greatest evil of the death penalty is that

18:06

it makes us all murderers. We'll

18:12

be back after a quick break. Advice

18:18

Week is back at Slate, and

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plus. And

18:54

if you are watching this video, either

18:56

I'm dead or I'm in a very, very, very bad

18:58

situation. She said, Oh my

19:00

God, I can hear gunshots. I can hear men

19:02

outside. Where are they? What have

19:05

they done to them? There is one

19:07

suspect, her father, the sheikh. A

19:10

new podcast from In the Dark and the New Yorker

19:12

asks a question. Why do

19:14

the women in Dubai's royal family keep

19:16

trying to run away? The

19:18

Runaway Princesses is available now. Follow In the

19:21

Dark wherever you get your podcasts. Last

19:27

Thursday, after the execution was over

19:29

and after he'd given his last

19:31

press conference, Reverend Jeff

19:34

Hood told me he needed something to

19:36

eat, and one of the

19:38

few places open was a Waffle House. He

19:41

walked in and he realized the

19:43

other people in there were the

19:45

adult children of the woman Kenny

19:47

Smith had killed. They'd

19:50

been there to watch the execution too. Reverend

19:54

Hood thought about turning right

19:56

around, but he didn't. He

19:59

says he hugged them. them instead. To him,

20:02

this story, it underscores

20:05

the way everyone involved in

20:07

an execution is thrashed

20:09

together, no matter what side they're on.

20:12

As a spiritual advisor, Jeff says he

20:15

wants to be open to all of them, the

20:18

guards, the wardens, the inmates,

20:20

the survivors, everyone. I

20:23

mean, ultimately, I feel like

20:26

the message of Jesus is clearly

20:28

one of love. I mean, you

20:31

can, I mean, the adulterous woman in the

20:33

Gospel of John, you who are without sin

20:36

cast the first stone. I

20:38

read that story every time I'm

20:40

in the execution chamber to

20:43

the person being executed, because

20:46

I want everyone in that room to know

20:48

that they don't have to do this. They

20:50

can walk away. You

20:53

who are without sin cast the first stone. I

20:55

didn't think about you reading stuff for the other people

20:57

in the execution chamber. Of course,

21:00

I'm a preacher. Can't

21:03

help yourself. I'm always preaching to

21:05

everybody. You know, it's funny,

21:07

growing at Southern Baptist, they used to

21:09

always say that you preach, you always

21:11

preach for a conversion. I

21:14

always preach with the idea that

21:16

there are people who need to hear

21:20

that they don't have to commit this is

21:23

evil. The death penalty

21:25

is not about the

21:27

person being executed. It's about

21:30

us. You know, we can call

21:32

that person, you know, unrighteous

21:34

all we want to. It's not

21:36

a question about the righteousness of

21:39

the person being executed. It's

21:41

a question of whether or not we think

21:43

we are righteous enough to kill someone. I

21:46

keep thinking about the fact that earlier

21:48

this month, the United Nations Human

21:50

Rights Office urged

21:52

Alabama to stop Kenny

21:54

Smith's execution. They said it could amount to

21:57

torture. It could be in violation of human

21:59

rights treatment. the U.S. is agreed to. I

22:03

wonder now that the execution has happened

22:05

anyway. What

22:08

happens with that? Like, are you... Do

22:11

you go testify in front of the U.N.?

22:13

Like, is that a move

22:15

here? I

22:17

don't know. I mean, I think that there's all sorts

22:19

of things that perhaps

22:22

will happen in the coming weeks, but I

22:24

did want to speak to the fact that

22:27

nobody in Alabama cares what the United Nations

22:29

says. These, you know, states

22:32

are states that, you know,

22:34

they're congressmen and women want to defund the

22:36

United Nations. And

22:38

while I appreciate the efforts

22:40

of a lot of

22:43

these organizations, I do often

22:45

think to myself, is this

22:47

helping or hurting where we

22:49

are? And I'm not all that

22:51

convinced that the United Nations coming out and

22:54

saying these things in

22:56

any way helps Kenny Smith. I

23:00

think it only makes the state more virulent

23:03

to do it. You

23:06

know, 43 prisoners in

23:09

Alabama have said they plan

23:11

to be executed using nitrogen hypoxia.

23:15

Do you think you're going to be attending more executions

23:18

like the one you just did? I

23:21

hope not. Yeah, I really

23:23

certainly hope not. But

23:27

humanity is always finding ways to

23:30

destroy each other. And it

23:33

seems like when we think we're finding

23:35

humane ways to destroy each other,

23:37

it seems like these things

23:39

that we call humane are somehow worse than

23:41

what came before. I

23:44

mean, I'm concerned that we're not too

23:46

far from let's burn people to

23:48

death because that's more humane. Will

23:50

I experience this horror again? I have no

23:52

doubt. Do you have

23:55

like a next execution on your calendar? The

23:57

Next execution I'm scheduled to. The

24:00

engagement that the execution of

24:03

Michael Smith in Oklahoma in

24:05

April. It's a very complicated

24:07

case. But.

24:09

To him in a he's someone who

24:12

in I'm already very close to. And

24:14

you'll be in the chamber. And I'll be in

24:16

the chamber. It'll be a lethal injection. To.

24:20

That's. Six. I

24:22

seasons. And

24:25

like a couple years. Yeah.

24:27

It's horrible means absolutely horrible. And

24:29

I didn't. I

24:33

didn't expect this. The I

24:35

didn't expect this pay. To

24:39

know it's it's It's difficult

24:41

when. He. In a success in

24:43

what you do means. Seem.

24:45

More people die. In

24:48

a you mentioned. You. Have five kids.

24:51

Rise higher you go home. And

24:55

explain. Where

24:57

you've been. When. He's

24:59

been to an execution like this

25:01

one. Do you just Tell them? They

25:04

know. Yeah, I'm very honest with

25:06

them about everything that's going on

25:08

and down. One of the things

25:10

that my daughter has repeatedly said.

25:13

Is. Is people a

25:15

one sentence? Than. They should

25:17

have to do it themselves. When.

25:20

People. Talk about

25:22

vengeance and talk about how this is

25:25

successful. Than they should have to put

25:27

their arm you know, their hands around

25:29

his neck and kill them themselves. But.

25:32

The tragedy of There's Nothing what my

25:34

daughter. Suddenly. Realizes at

25:37

eight years old is. That

25:39

in on this takes place in hiding.

25:42

It takes place. And

25:44

the name of the people of Alabama. but. I

25:48

would venture to say eighty Five, Ninety percent

25:50

of the folks in Alabama have no idea

25:52

someone was executed last week. Even.

25:55

To the point where. at

25:57

the gas station literally a mile

26:00

down the road from the prison,

26:02

the woman there asked me, she

26:05

said, what are you in town for? And I was

26:07

leaving and I said, well, there was somebody executed

26:10

here up the road. And she said, I didn't

26:12

realize that Alabama still had the death penalty. Well,

26:16

and it

26:18

just speaks of our sort of moral ability to

26:25

compartmentalize our lives and not pay

26:27

attention to anything going on around

26:29

us. And I think for my

26:32

kids, it's important

26:35

for me to help them understand that

26:38

life is complicated, life is nuanced,

26:40

but you can choose love.

26:43

You can choose to be

26:46

something other than constantly trying

26:50

to destroy other people. Reverend

26:55

Hood, I'm really grateful for your time. Thanks

26:58

for coming on the show. Well, thank you.

27:03

The Reverend Dr. Jeff Hood is a

27:05

pastor, theologian, and activist living and

27:07

working in Little Rock, Arkansas. He's

27:10

a convener of Clergy United against the

27:13

death penalty. And

27:15

that's the show. If you're a fan of what we're doing here,

27:17

what next? The best way to support

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our work is to join Slate Plus. Go

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on over to slate.com, search for Slate Plus to

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find out how. What Next

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is produced by Paige Osburn, Elena Schwartz, Rob

27:28

Gunther, Anna Phillips, and Madeline Ducharme.

27:30

We are led by Alicia Montgomery with a little boost

27:32

from Susan Matthews. Ben Richmond is

27:35

the senior director of podcast operations here

27:37

at Slate. And I'm Mary Harris.

27:40

Thanks for saying, we're good to make you. Thank

27:42

you.