2:00

disastrous for Marvel at the box

2:02

office, with ticket sales way down. It's

2:05

been disastrous behind the scenes with the

2:07

sudden departure of key executives. And

2:09

then this week, it became disastrous

2:12

in an entirely new way. This

2:14

morning, actor Jonathan Majors assent in

2:17

Hollywood halted as he awaits sentencing.

2:19

Jonathan Majors was gearing up to be

2:21

Marvel's next big star. Then

2:24

he got found guilty of abusing

2:26

his girlfriend. Jonathan, how

2:28

do you feel right now? Majors convicted

2:30

of two misdemeanors for recklessly assaulting his

2:32

then girlfriend, Grace Jabari, in March, fracturing

2:35

her finger and leaving her ear bloody.

2:37

He was acquitted of assaulting her intentionally.

2:40

He was found guilty of a

2:42

domestic violence crime, essentially.

2:44

That is not the guy you want

2:46

starring in your superhero film. Yeah. And,

2:49

you know, this is obviously terrible

2:52

for this woman, first of all. And

2:55

also, you know, a big headache for

2:57

Marvel because they had cast him as

2:59

this character Kang, who

3:01

was being set up to be the new

3:03

supervillain, this villain that kind of pulled together

3:06

different strains of Marvel storytelling.

3:08

Yeah. The thing about Jonathan Majors is

3:10

that it's not like he was

3:12

set up to play one character. He was like a whole universe

3:14

of characters. At the end of

3:16

one of Marvel's recent movies, like he appeared in

3:18

a little scene during the credits and

3:21

he was playing a whole bunch of different versions

3:23

of himself. And now kind of

3:25

none of them are usable because Jonathan

3:28

Majors himself has been fired. Now

3:33

that Majors is out, does

3:35

what happened here say more about him

3:37

as an actor in particular or wider

3:39

troubles in the land of Marvel? Well,

3:42

it's both. They really pummeled

3:44

you with this guy. Like, you cannot

3:46

escape Kang in any universe you travel

3:48

to. He's going to be there. And

3:51

now he's not going to be. Stay

3:54

on the show. The rapid rise

3:56

and precipitous fall of Jonathan Majors.

4:00

Will it take down Marvel, too? I'm

4:02

Mary Harris. You're listening to What Next. Stick

4:05

around. This

4:15

show is brought to you by Discover. You

4:18

know, in today's world, it can seem that the best

4:20

treatment is reserved for only a few. Well,

4:23

Discover wants to change that by

4:25

making everyone feel special. That's

4:27

why with your Discover card, you have access to 24-7

4:29

live customer service, as

4:31

well as $0 fraud liability, which

4:34

means you're never held responsible for

4:36

unauthorized purchases. Finally, no

4:38

matter who you are or where you are in

4:41

life, you'll feel special with

4:43

Discover. Learn more

4:45

at discover.com/credit card. Limitations

4:48

apply. This

4:50

episode is brought to you by Splunk. You

4:53

need to keep operations humming around the clock,

4:56

but potential disruptions are everywhere.

4:59

Splunk helps you predict problems and find and

5:01

fix issues fast, so you can

5:03

reduce risk and ditch downtime. The

5:06

world's largest enterprises rely on

5:08

Splunk's unified security and observability

5:10

platform to become more

5:13

efficient, resilient, innovative. With

5:15

Splunk, you can react quickly,

5:17

evolve faster, and be

5:19

ready for anything. Stay

5:21

ahead of disruptions. Learn

5:24

more at splunk.com/resilience. I

5:26

wonder if you can do me a favor

5:29

and explain who

5:33

is Jonathan Majors, for those who might not

5:35

know, because he's not just this Marvel supervillain.

5:37

Like he graduated from Yale School of Drama, right? Yeah,

5:42

you know, he was someone who became prominent

5:44

very quickly. You know, I

5:47

remember first noticing him in The Last Black Man in San Francisco,

5:49

an A24 film in 2019. Matoski,

5:53

Wozlowski, Chekov, correct.

5:55

These are the great. They're all confused,

5:58

bro. In 2020, He

6:00

was in Spike Lee's To Five Bloods

6:02

and HBO's Lovecraft Country. He

6:06

really built this career both as

6:08

like an interesting

6:10

dramatic actor who could be in like

6:12

an HBO film, Spike

6:15

Lee project, A24

6:17

movies, as well as like

6:20

big franchises. He's

6:22

kind of big and brawny, but

6:24

he also had this sort of

6:26

brooding, cerebral quality. He's actually is really

6:28

confident too. Like a New York Times writer

6:31

tossed into their reporting this anecdote about how

6:33

he showed up to an interview late, but

6:36

he had a portable speaker playing Kanye West

6:38

and he was comparing himself to Al Pacino

6:40

or Robert De Niro. So it's kind of

6:42

like he just had a lot of oomph.

6:45

Yeah. And it's not often that

6:48

Hollywood is graced with

6:50

just a sort of full fledged movie star who

6:52

just comes out of thin air. So

6:55

I think everyone was really excited to have him.

6:58

Tell me about his Marvel Cinematic Universe

7:00

character, Kang. I mean,

7:02

the thing is, it's many characters. So

7:04

there's like evil Kang the Conqueror. And

7:07

you think you can beat me. I

7:09

am Kang! There's

7:11

scientist Victor Timely. Time

7:14

is everything.

7:18

That's part of the appeal of the role, that many

7:21

roles chose off your range. And

7:24

he certainly seemed to have the range to do it all.

7:27

It's kind of like being a repertory theater actor. You can

7:29

just be a different person, put on a different costume and

7:31

you're someone else. Let's

7:34

talk about how things started to go south

7:36

for majors. Like he was arrested in late

7:38

March after an ex-girlfriend, Grace Jabari,

7:40

filed a criminal complaint against him.

7:44

What exactly happened here? They were in

7:46

a car. He got a text

7:48

from someone, like a flirty text. It

7:50

was like, I wish I was kissing you right

7:52

now or something. Yeah, so she tried

7:54

to grab the phone and that led to this dispute

7:57

where he ended up grabbing her hand

7:59

or something. really hard. And

8:01

some of it was caught on video, a closed circuit TV

8:04

video. So we've kind of seen

8:06

the outside of the car with, you know, what

8:08

seems like him sort of trying to shove her back in.

8:11

You know, it was a violent confrontation.

8:14

It kicked off this whole evening where the ex-girlfriend

8:17

sort of ran

8:19

away, went clubbing, went back to the

8:21

apartment and he, Jonathan

8:23

Majors came home to their apartment to find her

8:26

locked in the bedroom and on the floor and was

8:29

worried that she had hurt herself.

8:31

Right? Yeah. And you

8:33

know, the fact that she went out clubbing later

8:35

is something that his defense

8:38

lawyers tried to use against her unsuccessfully.

8:41

Right. Like, oh, it wasn't a big deal. Whatever

8:43

happened because she was out and about. There

8:46

was also a very strange chapter to

8:48

this where he filed

8:51

a counter complaint against her, basically saying that she

8:53

was the one attacking him and

8:55

she was arrested, but the

8:58

DA declined to prosecute her for that.

9:00

So she never had

9:02

any sort of like... Trial of her own. Trial

9:05

of her own, exactly. But

9:07

the allegations against Majors kept coming.

9:09

In June, Rolling

9:11

Stone reported that other women said they

9:14

had also been mentally or physically abused

9:16

by him. Eventually, Grace

9:18

Jabari released recordings she'd made of

9:20

her private interactions with Majors. In

9:23

them, he criticized her drinking and told

9:25

her she wasn't being supportive. Did

9:28

you come home talking to the third piece

9:30

of our house when we have a plan?

9:32

Coretta Scott King. Do you know who that

9:34

is? That's Martin Kingswood. Michelle Obama.

9:37

Barack Obama's life. I'm a

9:39

great man. Oh, great man.

9:43

I was doing great things. He was dropped

9:46

from a bunch of things. His management company dropped

9:48

him. His PR company dropped him. He was supposed

9:50

to be in Ad campaigns for

9:52

the U.S. Army, for the Texas Rangers. So.

9:55

He lost a lot of stuff in his

9:57

career immediately as he awaited trial. The

10:00

was the you know, the one big

10:02

thing he was love and that. Kind.

10:04

Of sat on their decision

10:07

the minute he was found

10:09

guilty. This past week

10:11

they are confirmed that they were

10:13

firing him. In. A way.

10:15

This decision was both a

10:17

long time coming and instantaneous.

10:20

Jonathan Majors lost his role as Kang within

10:22

just a couple of hours of the verdict

10:24

coming out. I think in a

10:26

way it would have been more complicated for them

10:28

if he hadn't been. Found

10:30

guilty because them what they do, you

10:33

don't have enough. Hollywood doesn't have to

10:35

wait for a court of law. Him

10:37

you know, Like Kevin Spacey was written

10:39

out of House of Cards and then

10:41

later acquitted and in trials. That

10:45

you know in their million other examples of

10:47

people who just get it out quote unquote

10:49

councils like they get fired for you know,

10:51

whether it's hundred a morality clause in their

10:54

contract or you know, people just declining to

10:56

work with someone because they've already open source

10:58

to be. So.

11:00

Insanely difficult or just bad on some

11:02

level that the audience doesn't want to

11:04

see them. And you know there there's

11:06

a corporate liability so it seems like

11:08

they just they waited stood to see

11:11

if he would be found guilty in

11:13

a court of law before they decided

11:15

to do anything about it. possibly because

11:17

of how. Complicated

11:19

A messy is to extract

11:22

him from. The Cinematic

11:24

Universe. Strangely. Enough, Marvel

11:26

was not the only major studio trying

11:28

to untangle a not from it's narrative

11:31

web this year. In. October

11:33

D C said it was canceling all

11:35

future projects with the Star of the

11:37

Flash franchise. Ezra Miller.

11:40

Miller had been charged with disorderly

11:42

conduct assault. He. Had

11:44

altercation with some patrons that a karaoke

11:47

bar in Hawaii and was enough. Paid

11:49

a fine for disorderly conduct. Police

11:51

say that Miller.agitated and began yelling obscenities

11:53

of people at a bar and singing.

11:55

Karaoke and recently charts with Us

11:58

and a burglary in. Mont

12:00

I didn't alcohol from some at

12:02

home and pleaded guilty to trespassing.

12:05

It's just the latest in a

12:07

string of legal troubles for the

12:09

twenty nine year old actor. I

12:11

mean, there's so many like the

12:13

bizarre thing as with his you

12:15

know behavior long away and add

12:17

the were com stuck with him

12:19

and that you know it without

12:21

a big problem for this movie,

12:23

which was also another kind of

12:26

superhero failure of Twenty Twenty Three,

12:28

The Flash, and one of the

12:30

promises that Ezra Miller couldn't get

12:32

out there and promote the film.

12:34

And they were. Just sideline. It

12:37

would we tell it. It's almost like these movies

12:39

kind of become too big to fail at a

12:41

certain point. Like you have to just soldier on

12:43

because I don't know you spend so much money

12:45

on it or invested so much in the. Actor:

12:48

Yeah, absolutely. And you know they

12:50

were reports that Dc was considering

12:52

just shelving the flashed, which looking

12:54

back on how badly it didn't,

12:56

how sort of. Despise.

12:59

It was Miss Miss Smith. You have

13:01

considered if they'd known that. but and

13:03

yeah, they are too big to fail.

13:06

Distinction of the majors can come

13:08

back. From. This with his

13:11

reputation intact equities even take.

13:14

I mean never say never

13:16

like we've seen a lot

13:18

of different people come back

13:20

from various scandals and quote

13:23

unquote cancellations. I, Louis Ck

13:25

as back doing stand up,

13:27

etc. Am I think a

13:29

domestic violence. Conviction.

13:32

Is. Going to be extremely

13:34

hard to come back from. but I

13:36

also think that you know the meeting

13:38

with meant. Has shown us

13:40

that. We. May be

13:42

don't need to prioritize that question of

13:45

what happens to and abusers. Career

13:47

or fame or you know is

13:49

really important is. Yeah.

13:51

The people that they

13:54

are mistreated and yell

13:56

patterns of. Massage

13:58

knee and harassment. The and violence.

14:02

And so maybe. Jonathan.

14:04

Majors should be working on himself

14:06

rather than. A. Movie.

14:12

Coming. Out after a decade of

14:14

box office dominance, What? Comes

14:16

now for Marvel. This

14:25

episode is brought to you by as a D.

14:28

The Man has a D business A.

14:30

I will not help you generate Cubist

14:32

versions of her family's holiday. Photo it.

14:35

But it will help you understand which

14:37

supplier is bad for the help you

14:39

role as your plants in South Asia

14:41

or identify the training your junior project

14:44

manager needs to rise up the ranks

14:46

for automate repetitive tasks while you focus

14:48

on big innovations so you can be

14:50

ready for the next. Revolutionary

14:53

technology, real world results as

14:55

as a D business and.

15:01

Hey this is Mary! Are a. Host of

15:03

Slaves daily news I guess what

15:05

next please? Mission is always been

15:07

declared through the. Noise boldly

15:10

and provocatively. this. Election

15:12

season and supreme court term are no

15:14

different. Important covered like this

15:16

though, it would not be possible without

15:19

the support of our sleep members. So

15:21

I'm going to invite you to join

15:23

us to the special offer you your

15:25

first three months of only fifteen. Said

15:28

his. Five bucks a month for

15:30

your first three months of uninterrupted

15:33

actually listening on It's Every Sleep

15:35

Podcast member exclusive Episode Two. Seconds

15:37

of your favorite shows like Am A Kiss

15:39

on the Political Fast. And unlimited

15:41

read it on the places they're

15:44

smart your be supporting all asleep

15:46

independent journalism and analysis as he

15:48

makes the news like known as

15:50

can sign up for say plus

15:52

athletes are com site podcasts Allies

15:55

against said his three months. For

15:57

only fifteen bucks to set of now at

15:59

least. You.

16:07

Will move to some other problems Marvel's

16:09

face this year. That. Especially at.

16:11

The. Box Office. Can you

16:14

should explain? Where. Marvel is

16:16

more generally and how Jonathan

16:18

Majors fits into that. When.

16:20

They started off the year with

16:22

Ant Man and the was Kwon

16:24

Mania. Which was

16:26

a pretty bad opening and a pretty

16:28

disliked movie. Headache inducing visuals there are

16:31

so obnoxious we overturn you could barely

16:33

even process what you're seeing an an

16:35

The Effect with puts everything but exactly

16:37

as it was before so that there's

16:39

absolutely no way or consequence to anything

16:42

that you just saw. It

16:44

was just not that good and

16:46

in particular the special effects were seen

16:48

as as muddy and and and

16:50

crude and that was a big problem

16:52

because that's one of the things that

16:55

Marvel's known for. They bounce back a

16:57

bit with the spring movie as Guardians

16:59

the Galaxies three which it okay but

17:02

like it did press as much as

17:04

Guardians of the Galaxy to say

17:06

you senses diminishing returns on but people

17:08

liked it and then a with

17:10

the most recent movie the Marvel's ah

17:13

it was just a disaster was

17:15

the lowest grossing M C movie in

17:17

their history. On and

17:19

you know critically it had it had

17:21

some support but. It

17:24

just. Seemed like people. Did. Not

17:26

want to see it and didn't care

17:28

anymore. I mean this was really the

17:30

year that in out like the scene

17:33

came off with marvel like it was

17:35

seen as unbeatable as just as this

17:37

juggernaut that would never end. And.

17:39

Now there's a real question of how

17:41

many years is this thing going to

17:43

be the dominant force in movies? And

17:46

guess it's important to say that like the

17:48

more marvel you watch, the more. You

17:50

may be enjoy it because they're all these

17:52

little easter eggs for people who are super

17:55

fans and have watched a lot of them

17:57

like characters will pop up and you only

17:59

really know what. Do in their if you've

18:01

watched. Something to movies or Tv

18:03

shows before? Yes, you know it's

18:05

it's it. rewards expertise and that

18:07

works for a major movie franchise

18:09

only as long as there's a

18:11

mass audience. Coming. Back

18:13

for more you know when I talked to

18:15

one of the writers have a vendors and

18:18

game which was. Their. Biggest

18:20

Movie and. He

18:23

described going to see it in theater and

18:25

seeing all the people like cheering for specific

18:27

things that you'd only know if you saw

18:29

the x number of movies that came before

18:32

and he said something to me like it's

18:34

preaching to the choir but the choir is

18:36

nearly global Sin. You don't have

18:38

to cater to people who don't care

18:40

about Marvel because I know people do

18:42

that. You have Blockbuster after Blockbuster after

18:44

Blockbuster with people who have seen everything

18:46

and know everything or know enough to

18:48

follow and I see. guess the point

18:51

where it actually was was too complicated

18:53

and a hard to follow what was

18:55

happening. you had to watch you know

18:57

the South and the Winter Soldier on

18:59

Disney Plus to understand what was happening

19:01

and like black cancer to wherever. I'm

19:03

just. Grabbing his out of

19:05

thin air? Please correct me? But

19:08

you know is a kind. a little

19:10

much for some people. got to feel

19:12

like work and already Disney is scaling

19:15

back significantly and you know what comes

19:17

out of that content faucet. Was

19:19

Johnson Majors character King. With.

19:22

Was that designed to kind of address some

19:24

of the issues. Is you're saying are inherent

19:26

to Marvel. Movies like maybe a

19:29

lack of depth so are

19:31

too much chaos in a

19:33

way. Yes because I think you know

19:35

the way that the Marvel Universe started

19:37

which was so exciting was that they

19:39

would introduced it our hero a Avenger

19:41

in each move in and they all

19:43

came together for the movie The Adventures

19:45

So ah since then the next phase

19:48

was. Introducing. Somewhere, characters

19:50

and in they all come together

19:52

and as even bigger team for

19:54

the adventures in endgame after that

19:56

the storytelling seem to lose lot

19:58

of focus like it. The

20:00

the stories went in a lot of

20:02

different directions and they didn't have that

20:04

same sort of momentum building up to

20:06

a new thing. I think that's one

20:08

of the proms a people had with

20:11

he has a last couple years of

20:13

Marvel. It's has seemed diffuse on and

20:15

Kang was. Potentially. Await

20:17

Assertive. bring people together again and

20:20

one of the vendors movie is

20:22

that is being planned is called

20:24

the Qing Dynasty and. Potentially.

20:28

Like San else, he could have

20:30

been like a sort of central

20:32

antagonists that brought all these disparate

20:34

strands together to defeat. Do

20:37

you expect to see a king? Movie.

20:39

Coming out. And I mean ask

20:41

that question for Marvel fans. one of the going

20:43

to do or the any Are they in and

20:46

find a new Kang? Are they gonna find a

20:48

new Supervillain? Now

20:50

than it seems like. Marvel.

20:53

Start maybe seeding a bit.

20:56

Audiences. Aren't coming. Is.

20:58

There some new thing. That's.

21:01

Looking to take it's place some new.

21:04

Place. Where the energy in Hollywood is going.

21:07

Well I mean in a way. Where

21:10

of living in the. World.

21:12

That Marvel created in the sense

21:14

that. I P and.

21:17

Know franchises are now the Bread

21:19

and butter. Like there would be

21:21

no Barbie movie without Marvel. I. See more

21:24

of a Wednesday? You heard the

21:26

big hit on Netflix. They've just

21:28

announced they're gonna do an Uncle

21:30

Fester. Serious? Not going to do

21:32

other spinoff of Wednesday. So there's

21:34

now like it out at a

21:36

Addams Family Tv Universe on Everybody

21:38

Wants the everyone wants a kind

21:40

of I P property that can

21:42

like be spun off. Audience

21:44

and I them forever. I think

21:47

Marvel and this sort of. The.

21:51

Model that it helped create.

21:54

Was up with closer than a lot

21:56

of other things too. like a sore.

21:58

a sure bet. You know, in

22:01

show business the are you know if

22:03

we have this canvas with all these

22:05

characters that are sort of the have

22:07

a dolphin fan base in the comics

22:09

and it doesn't matter if any particular

22:11

installment is. Great.

22:13

Er ist. Any particular actor in the

22:15

Marvel universe is that same as from

22:17

other stuff. It was a web was

22:20

a web of stories and you had

22:22

to sort of immerse yourself in it.

22:24

So I think it offers Hollywood this

22:26

illusion that you can just. Create

22:28

a machine that runs on unsound in a way It's

22:31

a talking to you I. Kind of wonder if

22:33

the really notable thing about the Marvel Cinematic

22:35

Universe is that it worked as a franchise. For

22:37

so long you eat. It

22:39

is. It is incredible that

22:41

Marvel. Has dominated for a

22:43

decade and a half. You know,

22:46

it's very rare that any kind

22:48

of. Genre can. Be.

22:51

That successful for that law means

22:53

it in a way. I want

22:55

people compare marvel to western Like

22:57

you know, westerns were so. Dominant.

23:00

And you know the forties, fifties

23:02

and then I. Eventually they didn't

23:04

feel current, they didn't show as

23:06

relevant anymore and people you know

23:08

would. Reinvent and commute.

23:11

Continue to reinvent and play

23:13

with the form of of

23:15

the western to have one

23:17

company. I define popular culture.

23:19

And. Sit on the top of popular culture for

23:22

a decade and a half is a really

23:24

long time. It's really hard to think of.

23:26

Other thing is that are like that. The. I

23:28

a little bit of the marvel story was really of

23:30

what goes up must come down. To the store

23:32

in the end, right? a bit. Now

23:34

you know you have kids who are

23:36

discovering movies and Marvel is what their

23:38

parents like. Someone who wants like with

23:40

your parents like. Michael,

23:45

I'm super grateful for your time. Thank you for

23:47

coming I'm show thanks at. Michael

23:51

Showman is a staff writer for The New

23:53

Yorker. And

23:55

that's or shell what Next is pretty stage

23:57

as Bernal. Anna Schwartz Rob Gunter Madeline. of

24:00

Charm and Anna Phillips. We

24:02

are led by Alicia Montgomery with a little boost

24:04

from Susan Matthews. Ben Richmond

24:06

is the Senior Director of Podcast Operations

24:08

here at S.L.A.T. And I'm Mary

24:10

Harris. Thanks for listening. Catch you back here

24:13

next time. I'm

24:20

Dahlia Lithwick and I'm host of

24:22

Amicus, S.L.A.T.S. podcast about the law

24:24

and the U.S. Supreme Court. We

24:27

are shifting into high gear. Coming

24:29

at you weekly with the context

24:31

you need to understand the rapidly

24:33

changing legal landscape. The

24:36

many trials of Donald J. Trump, judicial

24:38

ethics, arguments and opinions at

24:40

SCOTUS. We are tackling

24:43

the big legal news with clarity

24:45

and insight every single week. New

24:47

Amicus episodes every Saturday, wherever

24:50

you listen.